Guild Wars 2

Okay, let’s take a second and look at what metabuilds are the most used:
guardians: 4/5/0/0/5. support spec. Not traited for max damage.
elementalists: 6/6/2/0/0: support spec. Not traited for max damage.
Warrior: group utilities over damage boosts.
Engineer: group utility ( nade for vuln stacking) over damage boost ( bomb spam when bleeds are capped)
Ranger:6/5/0/3/0. support spec. Not traited for max damage. Group utility.
Mesmer: usually traited for warden’s feedback. Group utility. Not traited for max damage.

Necromancer: traited for max damage. Out of the meta.

Am i missing something?

Skady.5916:

InfernoHero.5687:

Skady.5916:

Nothing is wrong with zerker meta – its literally the only logical solution. There is no tanks (ways to pull boss aggro), no healers (everyone heals himself) in this game. Which leaves only 1 role for you – DPS.

I see this being said a lot, and I can’t really see the logic.

Assume Elementalist fighting champ with a charge ability:

Elementalist initiates fight with Fire Attunement meteor shower. (DPS)
Champ starts average attacks
Elementalist switches to Air Attunement and uses a knock back skill to keep the champ far away. (Control/Tank)
Champ charges
Elementalist uses an immobilize skill in Earth Attunement. (Tank/Control)
Immobilize wears off and champ fires off another charge
Elementalist, now at half health, switches to water attunement and fires off the two heal skills and also uses the class heal skill. (Healer/Support)
Champ starts more average attacks
Elementalist switches to Earth Attunement and uses the auto attack to weaken the champ. (Support? Maybe?)
Elementalist switches to Fire Attunement and finishes champ with a Lava Faunt and auto attacks. (DPS)

No offense but seems like you never done dungeons in GW2.

Let me tell you how it actually goes

Elementalist starts in fire with Meteor Shower (you got that part right)
But then instead of switching to earth and other useless shenanigans he continues to spam 1-2 in fire until boss is dead. Add dodges if needed.

See how easy it is if you just know how to dodge

Also the main point is to kill the boss very fast – ideally before your groups runs out of dodges/blinds/reflects. Which is usually 5-30 sec depending on boss.

See the problem here? You just turned one of the most fun classes in the game into an Auto Attack machine.

How is your scenario more fun than mine?
When did Video Games stop being about fun?

Skady.5916:

InfernoHero.5687:

Skady.5916:

Nothing is wrong with zerker meta – its literally the only logical solution. There is no tanks (ways to pull boss aggro), no healers (everyone heals himself) in this game. Which leaves only 1 role for you – DPS.

I see this being said a lot, and I can’t really see the logic.

Assume Elementalist fighting champ with a charge ability:

Elementalist initiates fight with Fire Attunement meteor shower. (DPS)
Champ starts average attacks
Elementalist switches to Air Attunement and uses a knock back skill to keep the champ far away. (Control/Tank)
Champ charges
Elementalist uses an immobilize skill in Earth Attunement. (Tank/Control)
Immobilize wears off and champ fires off another charge
Elementalist, now at half health, switches to water attunement and fires off the two heal skills and also uses the class heal skill. (Healer/Support)
Champ starts more average attacks
Elementalist switches to Earth Attunement and uses the auto attack to weaken the champ. (Support? Maybe?)
Elementalist switches to Fire Attunement and finishes champ with a Lava Faunt and auto attacks. (DPS)

No offense but seems like you never done dungeons in GW2.

Let me tell you how it actually goes

Elementalist starts in fire with Meteor Shower (you got that part right)
But then instead of switching to earth and other useless shenanigans he continues to spam 1-2 in fire until boss is dead. Add dodges if needed.

See how easy it is if you just know how to dodge

Also the main point is to kill the boss very fast – ideally before your groups runs out of dodges/blinds/reflects. Which is usually 5-30 sec depending on boss.

1-2 is boring.

main point should be to have fun fighting it.

What was posted above is much more entertaining than “burn down boss before he kills you lol”.

I’d rather watch an entertaining fight for 20 minutes than watch a quick one for 5.

This seems to be the kind of mindset that makes people run out of content, get mad, and leave.

InfernoHero.5687:

Skady.5916:

InfernoHero.5687:

Skady.5916:

Nothing is wrong with zerker meta – its literally the only logical solution. There is no tanks (ways to pull boss aggro), no healers (everyone heals himself) in this game. Which leaves only 1 role for you – DPS.

I see this being said a lot, and I can’t really see the logic.

Assume Elementalist fighting champ with a charge ability:

Elementalist initiates fight with Fire Attunement meteor shower. (DPS)
Champ starts average attacks
Elementalist switches to Air Attunement and uses a knock back skill to keep the champ far away. (Control/Tank)
Champ charges
Elementalist uses an immobilize skill in Earth Attunement. (Tank/Control)
Immobilize wears off and champ fires off another charge
Elementalist, now at half health, switches to water attunement and fires off the two heal skills and also uses the class heal skill. (Healer/Support)
Champ starts more average attacks
Elementalist switches to Earth Attunement and uses the auto attack to weaken the champ. (Support? Maybe?)
Elementalist switches to Fire Attunement and finishes champ with a Lava Faunt and auto attacks. (DPS)

No offense but seems like you never done dungeons in GW2.

Let me tell you how it actually goes

Elementalist starts in fire with Meteor Shower (you got that part right)
But then instead of switching to earth and other useless shenanigans he continues to spam 1-2 in fire until boss is dead. Add dodges if needed.

See how easy it is if you just know how to dodge

Also the main point is to kill the boss very fast – ideally before your groups runs out of dodges/blinds/reflects. Which is usually 5-30 sec depending on boss.

See the problem here? You just turned one of the most fun classes in the game into an Auto Attack machine.

How is your scenario more fun than mine?
When did Video Games stop being about fun?

How is Lava font and Meteor shower considered as an auto attack?

Dalanor.5387:

InfernoHero.5687:

Skady.5916:

InfernoHero.5687:

Skady.5916:

Nothing is wrong with zerker meta – its literally the only logical solution. There is no tanks (ways to pull boss aggro), no healers (everyone heals himself) in this game. Which leaves only 1 role for you – DPS.

I see this being said a lot, and I can’t really see the logic.

Assume Elementalist fighting champ with a charge ability:

Elementalist initiates fight with Fire Attunement meteor shower. (DPS)
Champ starts average attacks
Elementalist switches to Air Attunement and uses a knock back skill to keep the champ far away. (Control/Tank)
Champ charges
Elementalist uses an immobilize skill in Earth Attunement. (Tank/Control)
Immobilize wears off and champ fires off another charge
Elementalist, now at half health, switches to water attunement and fires off the two heal skills and also uses the class heal skill. (Healer/Support)
Champ starts more average attacks
Elementalist switches to Earth Attunement and uses the auto attack to weaken the champ. (Support? Maybe?)
Elementalist switches to Fire Attunement and finishes champ with a Lava Faunt and auto attacks. (DPS)

No offense but seems like you never done dungeons in GW2.

Let me tell you how it actually goes

Elementalist starts in fire with Meteor Shower (you got that part right)
But then instead of switching to earth and other useless shenanigans he continues to spam 1-2 in fire until boss is dead. Add dodges if needed.

See how easy it is if you just know how to dodge

Also the main point is to kill the boss very fast – ideally before your groups runs out of dodges/blinds/reflects. Which is usually 5-30 sec depending on boss.

See the problem here? You just turned one of the most fun classes in the game into an Auto Attack machine.

How is your scenario more fun than mine?
When did Video Games stop being about fun?

How is Lava font and Meteor shower considered as an auto attack?

Nit picking. an Ele playstyle doesnt need to be 100% auto attack to be an “Auto attack machine.” Two unique attacks and fireball for the rest is substantially flat and auto-attack oriented, especially for a class with three other attunements.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Skady.5916:

Nothing is wrong with zerker meta – its literally the only logical solution. There is no tanks (ways to pull boss aggro), no healers (everyone heals himself) in this game. Which leaves only 1 role for you – DPS.

You’re trying to apply Holy_Trinity.mmo to a game that doesnt have it.

That’s simply not true. Let me explain something to you.

As long as we have “target” concept and “HP” concept – there will be tank/healer/dps concept as well.

Tank – person targeted by mob
DPS – reducing enemy HP to zero
Heals – maintaining allies HP above zero

As long as you have “hitpoints” and “target” concept in game – there will be Tank/Healer/DPS concept as well. Tank/healer/dps is the direct consequence of HP/Targeting concept.

In other words: Tank/Healer/DPS concept is the way of resolving the problem – reducing boss HP to zero while maintaining out HP above zero.

Now look what GW2 does differently comparing no another MMOs which also have HP/target system.

1. GW2 says – there is no way of reliable aggro control in this game. Some bosses target high toughness, some target players at certain range, with certain weapons, certain classes etc. Aggro is wonky and there is absolutely no reliable way to predict who is gonna hold aggro. Which makes Tank as a role obsolete. OK you can gear up your guardian in full nomad set but boss will be targeting my full zerker ele and you cannot do anything about that, which kinda defeats the purpose of having nomad (i.e. non-zerker) anything in group.

2. Also GW2 says – there is no way to heal allies reliably. You cannot just sit there like Minstrel in LOTRO or Sorcerer in SWTOR and spam your heals on allies all day. Group heals are mostly combos on water field or long cooldowns like guardian resolve. You cannot just target an ally and spam heals, and actually you are not supposed to do that – instead you supposed to pro-actively avoid damage and save yourself.

TLDR: Tank/Healer/DPS concept is a direct consequence of HP/target concept. GW2 design reduces “trinity” to single-DPS.

InfernoHero.5687:

Skady.5916:

InfernoHero.5687:

Skady.5916:

Nothing is wrong with zerker meta – its literally the only logical solution. There is no tanks (ways to pull boss aggro), no healers (everyone heals himself) in this game. Which leaves only 1 role for you – DPS.

I see this being said a lot, and I can’t really see the logic.

Assume Elementalist fighting champ with a charge ability:

Elementalist initiates fight with Fire Attunement meteor shower. (DPS)
Champ starts average attacks
Elementalist switches to Air Attunement and uses a knock back skill to keep the champ far away. (Control/Tank)
Champ charges
Elementalist uses an immobilize skill in Earth Attunement. (Tank/Control)
Immobilize wears off and champ fires off another charge
Elementalist, now at half health, switches to water attunement and fires off the two heal skills and also uses the class heal skill. (Healer/Support)
Champ starts more average attacks
Elementalist switches to Earth Attunement and uses the auto attack to weaken the champ. (Support? Maybe?)
Elementalist switches to Fire Attunement and finishes champ with a Lava Faunt and auto attacks. (DPS)

No offense but seems like you never done dungeons in GW2.

Let me tell you how it actually goes

Elementalist starts in fire with Meteor Shower (you got that part right)
But then instead of switching to earth and other useless shenanigans he continues to spam 1-2 in fire until boss is dead. Add dodges if needed.

See how easy it is if you just know how to dodge

Also the main point is to kill the boss very fast – ideally before your groups runs out of dodges/blinds/reflects. Which is usually 5-30 sec depending on boss.

See the problem here? You just turned one of the most fun classes in the game into an Auto Attack machine.

How is your scenario more fun than mine?
When did Video Games stop being about fun?

Combat scenario is not about “fun” but about efficiency of killing the boss. Ele staff rotation is pretty boring 5-2-1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-1 etc. If you want to have “fun” with ele in dungeons by using complex rotations – please pick another weapon set like D/F or S/D/LH.

At the end of the day it comes down to definition of fun.
Fun for me – to solve the problem of killing boss efficiently and elegantly.
Fun for you – to use all skills at you disposal, you dont care much about what those skills do and why you use em. Seems like you just want to use them all “because you can” and you call it “fun”.

Well, other people might disagree with you, especially when you slow them down by being a useless asset to the group and preventing them for having their own “fun” of killing things quickly

For me it’s really the people more than its the build.

If I’m in a quiet group that really never uses chat, then yes I prefer they be skilled zerkers. It’s like this silent mutual understanding that we’re working together for profits. If it goes really well, we stick around for another path.

For happy and talkative groups. We could all wipe and fail for all I care. As long as we had fun.

When the group is silent but everyone is running around like a headless chicken until we wipe and suddenly the party chat awakens to assign blame, that’s not a good experience regardless of builds.

When we advertise for experience and/or zerker and someone joins in and dies a bunch of times / can’t make a simple jump / tries to solo a boss for an hour when we say reset then gets mad at us… Because apparently joining our group and playing the way he wants while ignoring the way we want is his right. [sarcasm] Wow. He was totally right. Our group is so much better now that he straightened us out.[/sarcasm]

Otherwise I join plenty of “all welcome” groups because I don’t mind taking a little extra time to meet some nice people. Sometimes you can convince them to do content that most people skip too.

Skady.5916:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Skady.5916:

Nothing is wrong with zerker meta – its literally the only logical solution. There is no tanks (ways to pull boss aggro), no healers (everyone heals himself) in this game. Which leaves only 1 role for you – DPS.

You’re trying to apply Holy_Trinity.mmo to a game that doesnt have it.

That’s simply not true. Let me explain something to you.

As long as we have “target” concept and “HP” concept – there will be tank/healer/dps concept as well.

Tank – person targeted by mob
DPS – reducing enemy HP to zero
Heals – maintaining allies HP above zero

As long as you have “hitpoints” and “target” concept in game – there will be Tank/Healer/DPS concept as well. Tank/healer/dps is the direct consequence of HP/Targeting concept.

In other words: Tank/Healer/DPS concept is the way of resolving the problem – reducing boss HP to zero while maintaining out HP above zero.

Now look what GW2 does differently comparing no another MMOs which also have HP/target system.

1. GW2 says – there is no way of reliable aggro control in this game. Some bosses target high toughness, some target players at certain range, with certain weapons, certain classes etc. Aggro is wonky and there is absolutely no reliable way to predict who is gonna hold aggro. Which makes Tank as a role obsolete. OK you can gear up your guardian in full nomad set but boss will be targeting my full zerker ele and you cannot do anything about that, which kinda defeats the purpose of having nomad (i.e. non-zerker) anything in group.

2. Also GW2 says – there is no way to heal allies reliably. You cannot just sit there like Minstrel in LOTRO or Sorcerer in SWTOR and spam your heals on allies all day. Group heals are mostly combos on water field or long cooldowns like guardian resolve. You cannot just target an ally and spam heals, and actually you are not supposed to do that – instead you supposed to pro-actively avoid damage and save yourself.

TLDR: Tank/Healer/DPS concept is a direct consequence of HP/target concept. GW2 design reduces “trinity” to single-DPS.

For your #1:

You’re right. There are no tanks in this game. However, that does not mean the role is not there. Did you completely disregard my Elementalist situation?

In a group, everyone is the tank, everyone is the healer, and everyone does damage how they please.

Tanking in Guild Wars 2 is all about control. Your whole group has to take on the role of tank. A guardian might use a greatsword’s fifth skill to pull the boss to him/her or give aegis to the group to block an attack. An Elementalist might cripple of immobilize the boss. A Necromancer might stop a bosses attack from working with a blind. A Mesmer might use one of his/her illusions as a meat shield for the group and trick the boss into attacking a clone.

For your #2: Everyone has a heal skill, but there are things you can do to help heal the group over-all.

A Warrior can throw down a banner of tactics to make the group’s heal skills work better. A Guardian can have healing symbols or give out regeneration. An Elementalist can use water fields. An Engineer can pull out a med kit or healing turret.

Skady.5916:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Skady.5916:

Nothing is wrong with zerker meta – its literally the only logical solution. There is no tanks (ways to pull boss aggro), no healers (everyone heals himself) in this game. Which leaves only 1 role for you – DPS.

You’re trying to apply Holy_Trinity.mmo to a game that doesnt have it.

That’s simply not true. Let me explain something to you.

Tank – person targeted by mob
DPS – reducing enemy HP to zero
Heals – maintaining allies HP above zero

You cannot just target an ally and spam heals, and actually you are not supposed to do that – instead you supposed to pro-actively avoid damage and save yourself.

TLDR: Tank/Healer/DPS concept is a direct consequence of HP/target concept. GW2 design reduces “trinity” to single-DPS.

I’d like to point out that first, we both agree that dedicated roles do not exist.

However, the features of these roles do still exist, they are just internalized. You can’t just walk up to a class here and say “oh, this is a Warrior/Guardian/Ele. They automatically must be decent at (performing a certain facet of the trinity at a certain level) or they’re a bad player.”

That does not mean that the concepts have died or been removed.

These concepts exist in GW2, but with slightly altered meanings.

Tank = Reduced damage, increased mitigation
DPS = Increased damage, reduced mitigation
Healer = provides circumstantial healing or revives to allies.

Every class has a specific portion of each of these concepts imbued into their functionality. some people may choose to max DPS at the cost of the other two facets, but it does not make those facets any less important. It just means that all classes perform all roles at all times.

DPS does not magically become a cure all in all situations because tactical shouthealing/ a well timed water field/ shadow refuge are all downplayed.

NoTrigger.8396:

berserker gear + every other set without defensive stats are the only gear sets that make full use of the active parts of the combat system. so how is this a bad thing?

You have answered your question by asking it. It is a bad thing, because they are the only gear sets that make full use of the active parts of the combat system.

timmyf.1490:

Out of curiosity, how many people complaining about Zerker gear bought themselves a set, tried it out for a few months, and decided it wasn’t for them?

Most of my chars have switched to zerker by now. The advantage of doing so was just too great to do otherwise. I don’t consider this a good thing.

Astralporing.1957:

NoTrigger.8396:

berserker gear + every other set without defensive stats are the only gear sets that make full use of the active parts of the combat system. so how is this a bad thing?

You have answered your question by asking it. It is a bad thing, because they are the only gear sets that make full use of the active parts of the combat system.

they are the only gear sets that make full use of the active parts of the combat system AND PLAYER SKILL because the player is forced to play good and be active to survive.
so no, its not a bad thing. its a great thing.

Astralporing.1957:

NoTrigger.8396:

berserker gear + every other set without defensive stats are the only gear sets that make full use of the active parts of the combat system. so how is this a bad thing?

You have answered your question by asking it. It is a bad thing, because they are the only gear sets that make full use of the active parts of the combat system.

timmyf.1490:

Out of curiosity, how many people complaining about Zerker gear bought themselves a set, tried it out for a few months, and decided it wasn’t for them?

Most of my chars have switched to zerker by now. The advantage of doing so was just too great to do otherwise. I don’t consider this a good thing.

I bought zerker gear. Tried it out. It was fun, but I ended up not liking it because in the event that I had people downed on specific bosses, I’d be deadlocked. Melt if I tried to help them, melt if I let them die.

I dropped zerker armor for knight/soldier, kept the weapons, and added a knight/soldier/zerker mix to my accessories. put points into defense for armored attack, and slotted bloodlust to recoup a portion of the power.

I still get to play like I used to, but now if someone downs I can grit my teeth and rev them to get them back up without melting, even under direct fire.

I get a lot of “<3”’s when driving a train for that.

I find playing the buffer between full wipes and wins more engaging, since I’m keeping track of downed while I fight.

Just something extra to do.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I’d like to point out that first, we both agree that dedicated roles do not exist.

However, the features of these roles do still exist, they are just internalized. You can’t just walk up to a class here and say “oh, this is a Warrior/Guardian/Ele. They automatically must be decent at (performing a certain facet of the trinity at a certain level) or they’re a bad player.”

That does not mean that the concepts have died or been removed.

These concepts exist in GW2, but with slightly altered meanings.

You thinking in a right direction but you not there yet

Yes roles do exist. And yes each party member is a Tank/Healer/DPS for himself.

Each profession can dodge (avoid damage completely), some professions have other ways of preventing boss from dealing damage (blinds, reflects, aegis).

All these factors lead to the following conclusion:
You do not need defensive stats on your gear, you should use offensive stats only to minimize TTK (time to kill) and you should use your active defenses to avoid damage.

In other words: get good and learn to dodge.

Skady.5916:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I’d like to point out that first, we both agree that dedicated roles do not exist.

However, the features of these roles do still exist, they are just internalized. You can’t just walk up to a class here and say “oh, this is a Warrior/Guardian/Ele. They automatically must be decent at (performing a certain facet of the trinity at a certain level) or they’re a bad player.”

That does not mean that the concepts have died or been removed.

These concepts exist in GW2, but with slightly altered meanings.

You thinking in a right direction but you no there yet

Yes roles do exist. And yes each party member is a Tank/Healer/DPS for himself.

Each profession can dodge (avoid damage completely), some professions have other ways of preventing boss from dealing damage (blinds, reflects, aegis).

All these factors lead to the following conclusion:
You do not need defensive stats on your gear, you should use offensive stats only to minimize TTK (time to kill) and you should use your active defenses yo avoid damage.

In other words: get good and learn to dodge.

This requires everyone:

>is experienced with the dungeon and knows how to dodge
>is not out of dodges when they need one.

You’re only focusing on the smallest portion of the game, where players are running for speed clears on a dungeon they’ve already done, and do not care about anything else (or simply aren’t bad at noticing visual cues/ never mistime a roll)

The game is much larger than that. Sure, Zerker gear works on Speedclear groups. Not everyone speedclears though.

Sure, it’s really easy to boil PVE down into “burn down the boss, if you die l2p”, but that is just a specific result of “play how you want”. Just because you can tailor off what you deem unnecessary and place the burden of downing on the people that are silly/unfortunate enough to -get- downed, does not mean you should in all cases.

that’s how people get bored, bro~

First let me address this:

Combat scenario is not about “fun”

This is a video game. I don’t care what your logic is behind that statement. Everything should be fun.

This week’s living story was literally the most fun I’ve had in this game thanks to Glint’s lair and I didn’t get crap for it. I used those five tomes to level my Elementalist to 20, and I’ll likely never use the shoulder skin unless I get the rest of the set.

Now, I’ll address the rest of your comment:

Ele staff rotation is pretty boring 5-2-1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-1 etc. If you want to have “fun” with ele in dungeons by using complex rotations – please pick another weapon set like D/F or S/D/LH.

An Elementalist’s staff is one of the coolest weapons in the game. It is literally the only weapon that gives you a little of everything you would need in any situation. You might as well be reducing the weapon to nothing if you just use three skills. Even if you did stay in Fire Attunement, The fourth skill is an extra dodge, and the third skill is a really cool AoE burn.

At the end of the day it comes down to definition of fun.

This is completely true, and it was my original point in the OP.

Fun for me – to solve the problem of killing boss efficiently and elegantly.

Ok, so you have the efficiency part down. This is very far from elegant.

Fun for you – to use all skills at you disposal, you dont care much about what those skills do and why you use em. Seems like you just want to use them all “because you can” and you call it “fun”.

I’m not even looking at a skill bar right now. I haven’t played Elementalist for more than 24 hours.

Watch this:

Fire #4 is a dodge back
Earth #5 is an immobilize
Air #3 is a knock back
Air #5 is a stun
Water #4 is a chill

I know what those do because I can use them. I should use them because they are there. They are there for a reason.

Well, other people might disagree with you, especially when you slow them down by being a useless asset to the group and preventing them for having their own “fun” of killing things quickly

Oh, trust me. I am far from useless.

Skady.5916:

InfernoHero.5687:

Skady.5916:

Nothing is wrong with zerker meta – its literally the only logical solution. There is no tanks (ways to pull boss aggro), no healers (everyone heals himself) in this game. Which leaves only 1 role for you – DPS.

I see this being said a lot, and I can’t really see the logic.

Assume Elementalist fighting champ with a charge ability:

Elementalist initiates fight with Fire Attunement meteor shower. (DPS)
Champ starts average attacks
Elementalist switches to Air Attunement and uses a knock back skill to keep the champ far away. (Control/Tank)
Champ charges
Elementalist uses an immobilize skill in Earth Attunement. (Tank/Control)
Immobilize wears off and champ fires off another charge
Elementalist, now at half health, switches to water attunement and fires off the two heal skills and also uses the class heal skill. (Healer/Support)
Champ starts more average attacks
Elementalist switches to Earth Attunement and uses the auto attack to weaken the champ. (Support? Maybe?)
Elementalist switches to Fire Attunement and finishes champ with a Lava Faunt and auto attacks. (DPS)

No offense but seems like you never done dungeons in GW2.

Let me tell you how it actually goes

Elementalist starts in fire with Meteor Shower (you got that part right)
But then instead of switching to earth and other useless shenanigans he continues to spam 1-2 in fire until boss is dead. Add dodges if needed.

See how easy it is if you just know how to dodge

Also the main point is to kill the boss very fast – ideally before your groups runs out of dodges/blinds/reflects. Which is usually 5-30 sec depending on boss.

Actually ZERO for both of you.
A good elementalist will stack might first.
In case, using staff, Earth 2, Fire 2, 2 blast finishers → enemy dead.
Oh look, support while being dps. who knew? :O

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I bought zerker gear. Tried it out. It was fun, but I ended up not liking it because in the event that I had people downed on specific bosses, I’d be deadlocked. Melt if I tried to help them, melt if I let them die.

I dropped zerker armor for knight/soldier, kept the weapons, and added a knight/soldier/zerker mix to my accessories. put points into defense for armored attack, and slotted bloodlust to recoup a portion of the power.

I still get to play like I used to, but now if someone downs I can grit my teeth and rev them to get them back up without melting, even under direct fire.

I get a lot of “<3”’s when driving a train for that.

I find playing the buffer between full wipes and wins more engaging, since I’m keeping track of downed while I fight.

Just something extra to do.

I’m nearly full zerker, I rez people by either melting down the enemies they’ve targeted so they will rally, or by being the target of the boss by attacking him, or by rezzing them. All of that is possible when I know the boss/mob mechanics and don’t make stupid mistakes (happens). In most cases it does no good if you’re able to stand in fire for 5 mins to rez someone while everybody else gets downed, it would be more effective to kill the boss fast and then revive the fallen ally.
You seem to talk solemly about open world PvE events and a wide range of players are doing these, so people who still haven’t noticed that standing in red circles is bad, commanders who haven’t figured out the boss mechanics themselves and have no idea how to counter it, thus their advises are rather suicidal and so on. So yes, it might appear to you that being tanky is the better choice because you have to deal with people who don’t know too much about the game (no offense btw, I’ve been a noob myself) but that only applies to these situations, not to the game in general. And I’m also able to kill everything with autoattack on my condi engi, so it’s not just zerker.

Edit: Spelling

RSLongK.8961:

Skady.5916:

InfernoHero.5687:

Skady.5916:

Nothing is wrong with zerker meta – its literally the only logical solution. There is no tanks (ways to pull boss aggro), no healers (everyone heals himself) in this game. Which leaves only 1 role for you – DPS.

I see this being said a lot, and I can’t really see the logic.

Assume Elementalist fighting champ with a charge ability:

Elementalist initiates fight with Fire Attunement meteor shower. (DPS)
Champ starts average attacks
Elementalist switches to Air Attunement and uses a knock back skill to keep the champ far away. (Control/Tank)
Champ charges
Elementalist uses an immobilize skill in Earth Attunement. (Tank/Control)
Immobilize wears off and champ fires off another charge
Elementalist, now at half health, switches to water attunement and fires off the two heal skills and also uses the class heal skill. (Healer/Support)
Champ starts more average attacks
Elementalist switches to Earth Attunement and uses the auto attack to weaken the champ. (Support? Maybe?)
Elementalist switches to Fire Attunement and finishes champ with a Lava Faunt and auto attacks. (DPS)

No offense but seems like you never done dungeons in GW2.

Let me tell you how it actually goes

Elementalist starts in fire with Meteor Shower (you got that part right)
But then instead of switching to earth and other useless shenanigans he continues to spam 1-2 in fire until boss is dead. Add dodges if needed.

See how easy it is if you just know how to dodge

Also the main point is to kill the boss very fast – ideally before your groups runs out of dodges/blinds/reflects. Which is usually 5-30 sec depending on boss.

Actually ZERO for both of you.
A good elementalist will stack might first.
In case, using staff, Earth 2, Fire 2, 2 blast finishers -> enemy dead.
Oh look, support while being dps. who knew? :O

On that note nerf ele-

just kidding.

This is more layered than autoattack machine. 9/10.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

This requires everyone:

>is experienced with the dungeon and knows how to dodge
>is not out of dodges when they need one.

You’re only focusing on the smallest portion of the game, where players are running for speed clears on a dungeon they’ve already done, and do not care about anything else (or simply aren’t bad at noticing visual cues/ never mistime a roll)

The game is much larger than that. Sure, Zerker gear works on Speedclear groups. Not everyone speedclears though.

Game has been out for 2 years already. Lots of guides out on builds/rotations/how-to-dodge etc.

I think its OK to expect from an average player to be familiar with these things. The same way as you expect from “Healer” in “traditional holy-trinity MMO” to be familiar with “healing”. And if that healer is not actually healing party you kick him or educate him if you feeling generous. Same rules apply here

Jana.6831:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I bought zerker gear. Tried it out. It was fun, but I ended up not liking it because in the event that I had people downed on specific bosses, I’d be deadlocked. Melt if I tried to help them, melt if I let them die.

I dropped zerker armor for knight/soldier, kept the weapons, and added a knight/soldier/zerker mix to my accessories. put points into defense for armored attack, and slotted bloodlust to recoup a portion of the power.

I still get to play like I used to, but now if someone downs I can grit my teeth and rev them to get them back up without melting, even under direct fire.

I get a lot of “<3”’s when driving a train for that.

I find playing the buffer between full wipes and wins more engaging, since I’m keeping track of downed while I fight.

Just something extra to do.

I’m nearly full zerker, I rez people by either melting down the enemies they’ve targeted so they will rally, or by being the target of the boss by attacking him, or by rezzing them. All of that is possible when I know the boss/mob mechanics and don’t make stupid mistakes (happens). In most cases it does no good if you’re able to stand in fire for 5 mins to rez someone while everybody else gets downed, it would be more effective to kill the boss fast and then revive the fallen ally.
You seem to talk solemly about open world PvE events and a wise range of players are doing these, so people who still haven’t noticed that standing in red circles is bad, commanders who haven’t fiigured out the boss mechanics themselves and have no idea how to counter it, thus their advises are rather suicidal and so on. So yes, it might appear to you that being tanky is the better choice because you have to deal with people who don’t know too much about the game (no offense btw, I’ve been a noob myself) but that only applies to these situations, not to the game in general. And I’m also able to kill everything with autoattack on my condi engi, so it’s not just zerker.

See, I can respect that.

I tend to get along really well with the new players though, so I like my playstyle as is. Theres a community that doesn’t know boss mechanics and makes silly mistakes, as well as a community that is the inverse. I don’t know which portion is bigger, so I specced to help out the portion that stands out more.

Totally doesnt take me 5 minutes to rev someone though.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fast_Healer + defense line.

Doesnt take me long to melt down bosses either. probably markedly slower than full zerk, but well enough.

IMHO there are things to say for zerk parties and a lot of things against:

I have a lot of characters wearing zerk armor/weapons/trinkets…

But I do NOT neccesarily play the meta builds.

My zerk warrior runs a pug carrying build (4/4/0/6/0) might for the whole party, especially when stacking…
My zerk guardian runs a dps (4/5/0/4/1)build, even though I like it, most people frown at the build considering it selfish. No staff
My zerk ranger is just what all people seem to hate, a glass ranger, but it does it’s job very well.
My zerk elementalist uses a plain 6/2/2/2/2 build it’s full dps staff
My ZEALOT elementalist uses a 0/4/0/6/4 support build It tends to keep parties up no matter what.
My ZEALOT guardian uses a pug carrying build (2/5/0/6/1) with some might stacking in need I can reduce dps by a lot to provide some regen for the party, No staff.
My Zealot hammer warrior uses an old shout heal build with condi removal. I sometimes use it to run Cof p2 even though the dmg may be a little lower It does do enough dmg to be usefull and the CC’s really seem to help against igniters especially in a bit lower dps party (ZERK parties tend to draw in people who need to learn, they heard well you need to buy zerk at the start of their game, only they are not competent. Dealing with this is a show of expertise, not an everlasting slugfest.
My hybrid warrior and hybrid necro are both builds I somethiomes bring into dungeons when all people tend to yell ZERK!
If all party members are zerk I tend to do quite some dmg with conditions and still retaining some basic attack strength… In the end most party members do not notice the fat it’s a non standard build. Though sometimes the fact there are “Zerk-elitists” means the party crumbles.

Lastly I am someone who has 1 or more characters from each proffesion running 15 lvl 80’s now with a extreme variety of builds. I crafted my first Ascended Heavy Armor with Rabid stats. and I still love playing my hybrid. I am completely familiar with the stacking and non stacking meta’s and to be honest expertise is when to know when you can or cannot stack.

Loved strange parties before, 5 glass rangers, 4 power and 1 condi necro, 5 ele’s instead of meta. you learn how to play instead of expecting all things to be done for you, leaving you able to improvise in paths if neccesary.

And no I haven’t played dungeons with 5 nomad mace/shield & staff guardians and I wouldn’t eventry if I had 6 hours to play a dungeon, even though I have a nomad/clerics shield and staff guardian…

Skady.5916:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

This requires everyone:

>is experienced with the dungeon and knows how to dodge
>is not out of dodges when they need one.

You’re only focusing on the smallest portion of the game, where players are running for speed clears on a dungeon they’ve already done, and do not care about anything else (or simply aren’t bad at noticing visual cues/ never mistime a roll)

The game is much larger than that. Sure, Zerker gear works on Speedclear groups. Not everyone speedclears though.

Game has been out for 2 years already. Lots of guides out on builds/rotations/how-to-dodge etc.

I think its OK to expect from an average player to be familiar with these things. The same way as you expect from “Healer” in “traditional holy-trinity MMO” to be familiar with “healing”. And if that healer is not actually healing party you kick him or educate him if you feeling generous. Same rules apply here

While I agree that those are standard expectations, you just dont see it when its time to fight certain bosses.

Example, labyrinth horror just now. It was a travesty.

I’d rather give up a little dps in order to keep X person alive than grab that DPS for myself and let him die cause he didnt read a guide before jumping into content.

InfernoHero.5687:

Fun for you – to use all skills at you disposal, you dont care much about what those skills do and why you use em. Seems like you just want to use them all “because you can” and you call it “fun”.

I’m not even looking at a skill bar right now. I haven’t played Elementalist for more than 24 hours.

Watch this:

Fire #4 is a dodge back
Earth #5 is an immobilize
Air #3 is a knock back
Air #5 is a stun
Water #4 is a chill

I know what those do because I can use them. I should use them because they are there. They are there for a reason.

There is not reason to use all these awesome knockbacks, chill fields and static fields on an average PVE boss – its just a waste of time and its not helping you to solve the problem (killing the boss with minimal effort in a minimal time).

While I agree that skills look cool and animations are awesome and there is definitely some use for them (hello, WvW), using them on an average boss is just simply… bad.

But you already admitted yourself that you use skills “because they are there”. I can also see how it can be “fun” to roll your face over keyboard and be amazed by cool animations. You probably pick certain weapons not because they are better for certain situation but because they “look cool”, “animations are fun” or maybe even cause you like that static field icon on your skillbar.

Thing is that the majority of players doesn’t think like you – that’s why speed run meta prevails.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

See, I can respect that.

I tend to get along really well with the new players though, so I like my playstyle as is. Theres a community that doesn’t know boss mechanics and makes silly mistakes, as well as a community that is the inverse. I don’t know which portion is bigger, so I specced to help out the portion that stands out more.

Totally doesnt take me 5 minutes to rev someone though.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fast_Healer + defense line.

Doesnt take me long to melt down bosses either. probably markedly slower than full zerk, but well enough.

I wasn’t talking about you but rather in general, but it has happened to me, the exact same situation in a very bad dungeon pug – I made a lot of mistakes myself though, but I kind of guess it would’ve been easier if that guy wasn’t trying to rez someone in a red circle for 5 mins and then took 6 minutes to kill a mob – we would’ve been able to wp a lot faster.

Just saying that your perception of this game is kind of wrong and PvE isn’t the largest part of the game either actually.

The only real problem is when people join speedruns without the intent of actually speedrunning. Outside of that this so called “zerker dominance” is really a non issue. It’s not like there’s really many dps checks in this game that auto kill you if you can’t finish the boss on time.

You CAN use the same build for all game modes if you’d like, but for the classes I know of, I personally would always object to such a method simply because the game modes are too different. You can always ignore it, but I always consider advice and theorycraft on the assumption that the player wants to play optimally, or at least optimize whatever they’re intending to do, otherwise they should just do whatever and no advice is needed anyways. That is under the assumption that the player wants to improve— however I understand if they don’t. I don’t really care about enough dungeons to really learn them either. Another example is open world where nobody bothers to create the most meta build because it’s simply too trivial trying to optimize that.

I mean I’ve always advised people on their take on the game even if it’s not “meta” however I just feel some ideas are a bit worse than others, and that’s just how it is.

Of course, that’s another issue. Perhaps it’s another form of efficiency for yourself. Maybe you don’t run enough dungeons for a big enough ROI on them to get entire extra sets. It can be cumbersome and takes up space. And of course there’s the other question if you actually need gold or not. The game isn’t just about amassing gold.

“Stand in the corner and spam 1 until the boss is dead. Usually 5-10 seconds”

Oh so riveting. So fun. So exiting. yawn Not. I just don’t understand this mentality.

Oh sure, I can see how getting through super fast the first couple of times through might be fun and exciting. But after that to do it every time… it just become repetitive work. Stack here, set auto attack going, wait. Run here. Stack there, start auto attack, dodge, attack some more, wait. No wonder you people watch tv to keep yourselves entertained when you’re on the game. You may as well be botting, cause you sure as hell aren’t playing.

timmyf.1490:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

unless your fun is stemming solely from making their life miserable.

Remind me again who the toxic players are?

> Any zerker that insists all players play like he/she does outside of a group geared for zerkers,
>Any player that joins a group expecting zerkers simply because they can, without filling group criteria
>Any player that expects another player to cover their deficiency in a particular aspect, and becomes abusively vocal about it after downing/dying.

Rule: Dont be a kitten and place your fun above anyone elses.

InfernoHero.5687:

First let me address this:

Combat scenario is not about “fun”

This is a video game. I don’t care what your logic is behind that statement. Everything should be fun.

This week’s living story was literally the most fun I’ve had in this game thanks to Glint’s lair and I didn’t get crap for it. I used those five tomes to level my Elementalist to 20, and I’ll likely never use the shoulder skin unless I get the rest of the set.

Now, I’ll address the rest of your comment:

Ele staff rotation is pretty boring 5-2-1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-1 etc. If you want to have “fun” with ele in dungeons by using complex rotations – please pick another weapon set like D/F or S/D/LH.

An Elementalist’s staff is one of the coolest weapons in the game. It is literally the only weapon that gives you a little of everything you would need in any situation. You might as well be reducing the weapon to nothing if you just use three skills. Even if you did stay in Fire Attunement, The fourth skill is an extra dodge, and the third skill is a really cool AoE burn.

At the end of the day it comes down to definition of fun.

This is completely true, and it was my original point in the OP.

Fun for me – to solve the problem of killing boss efficiently and elegantly.

Ok, so you have the efficiency part down. This is very far from elegant.

Fun for you – to use all skills at you disposal, you dont care much about what those skills do and why you use em. Seems like you just want to use them all “because you can” and you call it “fun”.

I’m not even looking at a skill bar right now. I haven’t played Elementalist for more than 24 hours.

Watch this:

Fire #4 is a dodge back
Earth #5 is an immobilize
Air #3 is a knock back
Air #5 is a stun
Water #4 is a chill

I know what those do because I can use them. I should use them because they are there. They are there for a reason.

Well, other people might disagree with you, especially when you slow them down by being a useless asset to the group and preventing them for having their own “fun” of killing things quickly

Oh, trust me. I am far from useless.

But why do you use other Attunements when you can inflict more damage by sticking to the Fire Attunement? btw that’s why I dislike the staff in PVE, you must sacrifice the efficiency to have fun. The D/F and S/D+F can be more entertaining.

Jana.6831:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

See, I can respect that.

I tend to get along really well with the new players though, so I like my playstyle as is. Theres a community that doesn’t know boss mechanics and makes silly mistakes, as well as a community that is the inverse. I don’t know which portion is bigger, so I specced to help out the portion that stands out more.

Totally doesnt take me 5 minutes to rev someone though.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fast_Healer + defense line.

Doesnt take me long to melt down bosses either. probably markedly slower than full zerk, but well enough.

I wasn’t talking about you but rather in general, but it has happened to me, the exact same situation in a very bad dungeon pug – I made a lot of mistakes myself though, but I kind of guess it would’ve been easier if that guy wasn’t trying to rez someone in a red circle for 5 mins and then took 6 minutes to kill a mob – we would’ve been able to wp a lot faster.

Just saying that your perception of this game is kind of wrong and PvE isn’t the largest part of the game either actually.

I can see where you’re coming from, but I have to disagree on my perception of the game being wrong. You seem to think that what you witnessed on that pug is the norm for players specced with less focus to DPS. While I agree that some outright horrors can happen with situationally bad, non-dps specs, I still do not agree that DPS is the best way to go, every time.

And my mindset applies to PVP (less so) and WVW ( more so) , so If you want to challenge it on those planes, feel free.

unless.. I’m misunderstanding something somehow. Idk.

This thread overcomplicates the issue. Given that kill credit is based on DPS, the problem with the full zerker meta is that it is OP and under armored in PvE making it a greedy build that relies on other players to keep them alive. This takes away kill credit potential from other players. This is one of the largest issues with not implementing a proper “trinity” model. My hybrid knight/soldier guardian build may not cause max damage but at least I’m not a one-hit-wonder and can contribute more than just DPS to a group. I think fights would have to be planned out much better if player/player collision was enabled, which will never happen simply because too much of the content would end up broken.

That said, there will always be a preferred build and high DPS DD builds, such as zerker, will almost always be preferred simply because they’re typically easier to understand making them easier to use effectively. ANet will obviously cater to this group as their core group of players.

Personally, I think the idea that any profession can play any spec was a mistake and overcomplicates character builds and battle and makes many build, while possible, nonsensical. Just to name a few things, a Mesmer, essentially a pure bikini light armor caster class, should not be able to use a GS. The whole idea behind a necromancer is conditions, so a DD necro of any form seems wrong to my thinking. Warriors are the jar-heads of GW2 and should have the highest DPS, but should have very limited options for magic/conditions. I like options, but like with armor class and weapon type, I don’t think every build should be available to every profession. It would simplify things somewhat and make balancing much easier.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I can see where you’re coming from, but I have to disagree on my perception of the game being wrong. You seem to think that what you witnessed on that pug is the norm for players specced with less focus to DPS. While I agree that some outright horrors can happen with situationally bad, non-dps specs, I still do not agree that DPS is the best way to go, every time.

And my mindset applies to PVP (less so) and WVW ( more so) , so If you want to challenge it on those planes, feel free.

unless.. I’m misunderstanding something somehow. Idk.

Yeah, you do. But how to explain it..

Not mastered boss, class or game mechanics: Zerker isn’t for you, everybody in your group who is zerker is put at risk as the group itself can’t clear fast enough (it’s more complicated than that actually as also boon sharing, skills and so on play a role)
Mastered game, class and boss mechanics: Zerker is for you, you will be more efficent in everything including reviving allys.

I think my perception of this game is pretty good, don’t ask me do look how many hours I’ve played. I have been against zerker for the longest time until the april nerf forced me to go nearly full zerker to be able to survive (thief main – it might not be that extreme for other classes)

saya.2197:

But why do you use other Attunements when you can inflict more damage by sticking to the Fire Attunement? btw that’s why I dislike the staff in PVE, you must sacrifice the efficiency to have fun. The D/F and S/D+F can be more entertaining.

Because you shouldn’t just care about damage.

Let’s assume the rest of my group is full zerk:

Warrior is the first to go down. This eliminates his/her banner and now if you’re down, you will most likely die.

Party member #3 starts to get low on health, so you try to control the boss with earth attunement and keep it away from that party member. You also use Water to heal that party member when you can. This gets that party member back up to full health, and if you play it right, you can control the boss with earth and air attunement while some of your party goes to res the warrior.

^All that from the squishiest class in the game.

You’re bailing water out of the boat with a thimble, Inferno. The two mentalities clash too much for the groups to understand each other it seems.

In their worlds, party member 3 never gets low on hp, because the boss is dead in the time it takes them to inhale.

InfernoHero.5687:

Because you shouldn’t just care about damage.

Of course, the problem is that DPS DOES affect rewards, so we’re forced to care about it.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

You’re bailing water out of the boat with a thimble, Inferno. The two mentalities clash too much for the groups to understand each other it seems.

You’d be surprised at what I could pull off with just a paper clip and some string.

If you’re giving me a full thimble than we’re in for a real party!

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

“Stand in the corner and spam 1 until the boss is dead. Usually 5-10 seconds”

Oh so riveting. So fun. So exiting. yawn Not. I just don’t understand this mentality.

Oh sure, I can see how getting through super fast the first couple of times through might be fun and exciting. But after that to do it every time… it just become repetitive work. Stack here, set auto attack going, wait. Run here. Stack there, start auto attack, dodge, attack some more, wait. No wonder you people watch tv to keep yourselves entertained when you’re on the game. You may as well be botting, cause you sure as hell aren’t playing.

thats how i play most of the time. its extremely exciting. i dont understand all these “elitists” out there who use toxic berserker gear. i mean, whats cool about dodging stuff that can kill you? you might as well just go afk.
but my playstyle, im telling you, my playstyle is much more active and it really forces me to pay attention.

Leamas.5803:

That said, there will always be a preferred build and high DPS DD builds, such as zerker, will almost always be preferred simply because they’re typically easier to understand making them easier to use effectively. ANet will obviously cater to this group as their core group of players.

i agree completely. dps builds are so easy to understand that many people still believe its just autoattack and dodge. passive damage mitigation is much harder to understand because you dont have to make the right decision at the right time to survive.

InfernoHero.5687:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

You’re bailing water out of the boat with a thimble, Inferno. The two mentalities clash too much for the groups to understand each other it seems.

You’d be surprised at what I could pull off with just a paper clip and some string.

If you’re giving me a full thimble than we’re in for a real party!

are you macgyver?

Leamas.5803:

InfernoHero.5687:

Because you shouldn’t just care about damage.

Of course, the problem is that DPS DOES affect rewards, so we’re forced to care about it.

The problem is that ALL you care about is DPS. You should care about Control, healing/support, and DPS equally.

InfernoHero.5687:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

You’re bailing water out of the boat with a thimble, Inferno. The two mentalities clash too much for the groups to understand each other it seems.

You’d be surprised at what I could pull off with just a paper clip and some string.

If you’re giving me a full thimble than we’re in for a real party!

grabs some popcorn

Well have it, bud. Let’s see whatcha can do.

InfernoHero.5687:

Leamas.5803:

InfernoHero.5687:

Because you shouldn’t just care about damage.

Of course, the problem is that DPS DOES affect rewards, so we’re forced to care about it.

The problem is that ALL you care about if DPS. You should care about Control, healing/support, and DPS equally.

That’s not all I care about, but I am a reward driven player (I like to see shinies) and am so forced to care about it somewhat. I don’t play solely to make other players richer. That said, I play solo way too much to run any form of glass canon. I run a hybrid tank on my guard which is great in a group, but can still deal moderate damage. I run pure dire conditionmancer on my necro, which is nearly as greedy a build as pure zerker, but much more survivability. I can get my CD well over 2000 with food and a full stack of corruption. If we had a proper trinity model, I could play a full healer or full tank and still get full rewards for equal contribution.

Leamas.5803:

InfernoHero.5687:

Leamas.5803:

InfernoHero.5687:

Because you shouldn’t just care about damage.

Of course, the problem is that DPS DOES affect rewards, so we’re forced to care about it.

The problem is that ALL you care about if DPS. You should care about Control, healing/support, and DPS equally.

That’s not all I care about, but I am a reward driven player (I like to see shinies) and am so forced to care about it somewhat. That said, I play solo way too much to run any form of glass canon. I run a hybrid tank on my guard which is great in a group, but can still deal moderate damage. I run pure dire conditionmancer on my necro, which is nearly as greedy a build as pure zerker but I can get my CD well over 2000 with food and a full stack of corruption. If we had a proper trinity model, I could play a full healer or full tank and still get full rewards for equal contribution.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Look at that. What you just described to me is a player that is invested in his/her characters and knows exactly how to play them in a given situation.

I have a few questions for you. If you don’t want to answer them, that’s alright, but be aware they directly lead to my next point.

1. Why do you like playing your Guardian with that setup? What makes that character fun for you? Assume you have everything you could ever dream of and can no longer play for rewards. Why would you play your guardian?

2. What made you create a necromancer? They are fairly far from the usual Meta, so why did you pick that class? What makes you have fun with it?

3. Everything you just described makes you sound like you’ve played these two characters over a long period of time. How long have you had these characters?

Leamas.5803:

That said, I play solo way too much to run any form of glass canon.

Which playmode? I also solo nearly everything, that with no matter what build, 2 of my toons are either valk/zerker or full zerker (my necro) and they’re doing better than the rest I’ve got – I still don’t know anything about necros though, I just faceroll the keyboard.

Building max dps doesnt mean you dont use support or control. Ive lost count how many times thats been pointed out. Its like speaking to brick walls.

spoj.9672:

Building max dps doesnt mean you dont use support or control. Ive lost count how many times thats been pointed out. Its like speaking to brick walls.

Many of us understand this, I just dont personally favor the way building max DPS near-cripples other options I’d like to use as well.

It doesnt cripple them. It has no effect on other builds. Its just you people seem to be frustrated that there is a meta. Which doesnt make any sense. There is always a meta.

If time is not an issue for you, running full passive defence is sooo much easier. Its completely imbalanced at times. People just see DPS as a problem because that one extreme is the meta. But the opposite extreme is much more overpowered. See our no dodge arah path 2 run for reference. Notice how we complete the path faster than some pug groups yet we are almost completely immortal and didnt focus on damage at all. http://youtu.be/b2VhmwLwvrM

Mixed groups will have some problems due to squishy players being in danger, but the overall group should have an easier time than a full glass group.

InfernoHero.5687:

I have a few questions for you. If you don’t want to answer them, that’s alright, but be aware they directly lead to my next point.

1. Why do you like playing your Guardian with that setup? What makes that character fun for you? Assume you have everything you could ever dream of and can no longer play for rewards. Why would you play your guardian?

2. What made you create a necromancer? They are fairly far from the usual Meta, so why did you pick that class? What makes you have fun with it?

3. Everything you just described makes you sound like you’ve played these two characters over a long period of time. How long have you had these characters?

1. I play the guard because I like to help other players and like the survivability. If rewards were not an issue, I would perhaps switch it to a pure healer or tank, or make a new one solely for such group play.

2. When I first bought the games, ~Aug 2012, as one who has historically always played a warrior in every RPG, I decided I was going to break from my norm and play a caster. I chose the necro because thematically it suits my personality and do love playing her, lover her skills, especially in WvW where a condition build is less affected by the stack limits. Now keep in mind this was only a couple months after launch and the depth of the condition stack issue was not yet fully realized by the community. I may have chosen differently otherwise. But don’t get me wrong, I don’t regret my choice.

3. My necro is well over 2 years old and my guard I created last year at Halloween as a PvE alternative to the conditionmancer to make grouping easier. So I’ve mained my guard pretty much exactly a year except in WvW where I still typically use the necro.

spoj.9672:

Building max dps doesnt mean you dont use support or control. Ive lost count how many times thats been pointed out. Its like speaking to brick walls.

Of course….the point is that a build that specialized in support or control is not equally rewarded for their efforts as a max DPS build.

Leamas.5803:

spoj.9672:

Building max dps doesnt mean you dont use support or control. Ive lost count how many times thats been pointed out. Its like speaking to brick walls.

Of course….the point is that a build that specialized in support or control is not equally rewarded for their efforts as a max DPS build.

How so? Even downleveled can tag mobs and get loot.

spoj.9672:

It doesnt cripple them. It has no effect on other builds. Its just you people seem to be frustrated that there is a meta. Which doesnt make any sense. There is always a meta.

If time is not an issue for you, running full passive defence is sooo much easier. Its completely imbalanced at times. People just see DPS as a problem because that one extreme is the meta. But the opposite extreme is much more overpowered. See our no dodge arah path 2 run for reference. Notice how we complete the path faster than some pug groups yet we are almost completely immortal and didnt focus on damage at all. http://youtu.be/b2VhmwLwvrM

Mixed groups will have some problems due to squishy players being in danger, but the overall group should have an easier time than a full glass group.

?

I don’t care that’s there’s a meta. If you wanna zerk, zerk. its good for people that know what they’re doing and have a group full of similarly experienced people.

The -only- problem I have is with people that say Zerk is the end all, cure all for any mode at any time and if you do not play it you’re bad.

And my reference to support, etc. being crippled was in reference to the individual. It affects the person who is zerking. Some people would prefer less dps for more survivability, especially in PVP/WVW settings.

Just so we’re on the same page. I am just pointing out that I do quite well in PVE for certain reasons without the full zerk build, and that I have fun doing it.

oddly… this argument seems very reminiscent of one that used to be had in GW1. About using Sup Runes in pvp.

Sorry, it struck me as funny. Dunno if anyone else gets it or not haha

Leamas.5803:

1. I play the guard because I like to help other players and like the survivability. If rewards were not an issue, I would perhaps switch it to a pure healer or tank, or make a new one solely for such group play.

2. When I first bought the games, ~Aug 2012, as one who has historically always played a warrior in every RPG, I decided I was going to break from my norm and play a caster. I chose the necro because thematically it suits my personality and do love playing her, lover her skills, especially in WvW where a condition build is less affected by the stack limits. Now keep in mind this was only a couple months after launch and the depth of the condition stack issue was not yet fully realized by the community. I may have chosen differently otherwise. But don’t get me wrong, I don’t regret my choice.

3. My necro is well over 2 years old and my guard I created last year at Halloween as a PvE alternative to the conditionmancer to make grouping easier. So I’ve mained my guard pretty much exactly a year except in WvW where I still typically use the necro

1. And this leads back to my OP. Pure Zerkers isn’t the only effective build style. You still have that “Speed Run” and “Zerker Only” mind-set, and you reach your goal without having to sacrifice the ways you like to play the class. You play perfectly without using the pure DPS build.

2. I can relate to this. My very first character that I made right after installing the game on launch day was an Asura Elementalist. This was strange since I almost always play the “Warrior” style class in any MMO. I, however, deleted it and restarted with a Norn Warrior once I hit level 30 and got bored with leveling as an Elementalist.

That Norn Warrior is currently the oldest character I have. He had his second birthday a few days ago.

3. This proves that you are not only invested in these two characters, but you also know what you love to use them for. That’s awesome. You’re awesome.