Guild Wars 2

Leamas.5803:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Honestly, I don’t even have a problem with the most efficient team for a dungeon being pure glass cannon DPS race. I have an issue with every dungeon filling that description.

Randomly generated dungeon maps would resolve much of this…no preset place to stack, no memorizing paths. I’d personally find this enjoyable, though I’d venture it would cause most dungeons to become quite abandoned since they’d always be much more challenging.

They just need guaranteed desirable rewards.

DarkWasp.7291:

Leamas.5803:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Honestly, I don’t even have a problem with the most efficient team for a dungeon being pure glass cannon DPS race. I have an issue with every dungeon filling that description.

Randomly generated dungeon maps would resolve much of this…no preset place to stack, no memorizing paths. I’d personally find this enjoyable, though I’d venture it would cause most dungeons to become quite abandoned since they’d always be much more challenging.

They just need guaranteed desirable rewards.

I think he’s getting on at the “randomly generated” part, rather than increased difficulty. It works in Diablo because of the overall simple map structure. Dungeon maps in GW2 are far more complex and randomly generated dungeons would almost certainly be rife with bugs and not really function.

make dungeon harder for the elite speedrun crowd> we adapt anyway> kill times doesn’t change at all, berserker/assassin is still the fastest way/ casuals can’t do the content anymore.

Remember how hard people cried after the spider queen buff?

Here is the thing that I never really understood.

I, and many other people, enjoy soloing dungeons. Why? Many reasons. One big one for me is that the encounters are much more enjoyable alone. Things that would never be a challenge for an organized group suddenly become problematic and usually fun to overcome, trying to think of a way to survive something that was intended to be a challenge for 5 people. For some cases its only because it takes you 5 times as long to kill whatever it is, but that gives the enemy time to show their skills, and gives you time to kitten up and die. In others, it requires completely different tactics, a focus on kiting for example which is almost always frowned upon in groups.

So when encounters are more enjoyable alone because they carry a higher degree of risk to overcome and introduce different tactics, why would you WANT to run the most efficient gear unless you’re going for a record?

I love joining new player parties because I feel like its more of a challenge to figure out how to work with what they’ve brought instead of what they didn’t bring to come up with how we’re going to get past this part of the dungeon.

I felt this way when I first started the game, but being in college full time and working leaves little time to do things, so to do all the things I would like to do, I have to get things done with efficiency, otherwise I don’t get all my daily run ins. And I still have fun. I just do it with a group of friends that I know do it well. Rarely will you get a good pug zerk group outside of CoF because CoF is stupidly easy.

such a troll thread

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

“The Problem” is that the most efficient team to run any dungeon is always pure glass cannon setups.

As it should happen.

Given the game’s focus on build variety and teamwork, this seems out of place. The most efficient group should be a mix of gear stats and builds.

Where do you get that?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

hybrid.5027:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Capable of winning? Sure. Capable of winning faster than some other combination? Not so much.

Why is Zerker not the stat set in WvW and PvP? Players usually have lower health totals than mobs, so it would stand to reason that Zerker should cut through them even faster. But it doesn’t. The reasons are things that players have that most mobs don’t. Rapid attacks, evasions, mobility, conditions, high armor relative to health, boons, and a mix of attacks. Mordrem have all of these as well. Risen don’t.

Would there be a meta in an all Mordrem dungeon? Sure. I’m betting it won’t be 5 zerkers, though. 1-3, perhaps, but not 5.

No, it would be all 5.

FYI: I have done Dredge fractal level 80 (when that was possible) with 5 berserkers. It was more of a challenge than your mordrem dungeon would be, and there would have been exactly 0 benefit of anyone wearing tankier gear.

How many Mordrem have you fought? They are way tougher than Dredge unless you completely base your survival on blind spam (which multiple mordrem are quite resistant to thanks to rapid-hit attacks and being mobile while blindspam is based on stationary fields). Dredge have two notable types: the burrowing and the boonspammers. Not that difficult to deal with both. They are also slow attackers.

5 dredge with even proportions or 5 mordrem of mixed types. I’d choose to fight the dredge every time. You wouldn’t have 10+ stacks of Torment and don’t need to be dodging immobilize from the guys that take more damage from your on-crit bleeds than the actual attacks, be worried about retaliation, or needing poison just to keep them from healing back up.

Husks alone necessitate bringing a condition build for a speedy clear. Still would only be one, but that immedietly means you don’t have 5 zerkers

Mordrem don’t do retaliation anymore it’s swiftness now and if I’m correct then husks got a nerf as well.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I’m still quite confident that the meta for such a dungeon would include a condition build to manage the husks, menders, and leechers. Husks because even Zerkers do laughable damage to them, Menders and Leechers, because poison will drastically shorten the fight and right now the only dungeon meta build that even has poison is d/X thief. Unless I’m mistaken and engineers do actually use grenade kit in their meta build.

Those three enemy types are ones that currently have no parallel in any dungeon path. As such, I’m not sure the current dungeon meta will be the appropriate one when they’re introduced.

You don’t need poison against menders, just high attack rate skills and enough damage (thus zerker).

Dalanor.5387:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

“The Problem” is that the most efficient team to run any dungeon is always pure glass cannon setups.

As it should happen.

Given the game’s focus on build variety and teamwork, this seems out of place. The most efficient group should be a mix of gear stats and builds.

Where do you get that?

Why should “all glass cannon” be the most efficient way to run every dungeon?

Where did I get that the game is focused on build variety and teamwork? Perhaps from ANet’s actions. A lot of their balance changes have been with the explicit intent of “improving build variety”. The fact they nerfed crit damage also suggests that “all glass cannon all the time” is not how they want the game to function (plus the fact they explicitly said it was the first step to reduce the dominance of glass cannon in PvE).

Teamwork has always been a very heavily stated goal in the game. If you’re questioning where I got that, I have to wonder if you actually know anything about the game.

@Tim: yeah, I noticed the lack of Retaliation in Silverwastes. A shame, because that really is a mechanic that would force a meta change for efficiency. Current speedrun groups would kill themselves against enemies with Retaliation, so the meta would change to at least bring reliable boonstripping. Mesmers would be popular again. Necros still wouldn’t.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Where did I get that the game is focused on build variety and teamwork? Perhaps from ANet’s actions. A lot of their balance changes have been with the explicit intent of “improving build variety”. The fact they nerfed crit damage also suggests that “all glass cannon all the time” is not how they want the game to function (plus the fact they explicitly said it was the first step to reduce the dominance of glass cannon in PvE).

Most changes are because of pvp and wvw, I don’t know why they nerfed crit damage that drastically as it means that in pvp/wvw condi is now “OP”, so they will have to nerf that eventually and knowing anet they won’t tone it down a notch but go full frontal, then they will have to nerf crit/power again and so on.
The reason why zerker is the best in every dungeon is that it requires knowledge of game, boss and class mechanics – once people know all of that every dungeon is a cake – you can do that with pvt gear as well, just takes a bit longer and then you might get in troubles with your cooldowns as taking down enemies takes well, longer (unless you can’t crit them). I don’t know about fractals though, maybe there it’s different.

Edit: In general: All pugs are elitists:
Zerker pugs: That guy didn’t take that boss down fast enough, that noob, should’ve gone zerkers, pvt is rubbish.
Pvt pugs: That guy died all the time, such a noob, should’ve gone pvt, zerker is rubbish. Maybe all people should try some teamwork instead of only focussing the gear choices.

So since zerkers take down bosses faster it take less skill to play since less time to make any misstake, Do i have that right.

I mean if boss go down so fast he cant use his attacks you dont really need to do anything hence no skill

Jana.6831:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Where did I get that the game is focused on build variety and teamwork? Perhaps from ANet’s actions. A lot of their balance changes have been with the explicit intent of “improving build variety”. The fact they nerfed crit damage also suggests that “all glass cannon all the time” is not how they want the game to function (plus the fact they explicitly said it was the first step to reduce the dominance of glass cannon in PvE).

Most changes are because of pvp and wvw, I don’t know why they nerfed crit damage that drastically as it means that in pvp/wvw condi is now “OP”, so they will have to nerf that eventually and knowing anet they won’t tone it down a notch but go full frontal, then they will have to nerf crit/power again and so on.

WvW perhaps, but in PvP, it intentionally remained the same. Crit damage in PvP is the same as it was at launch.

One of their main targets with the crit damage-> Ferocity change was amulets, rings, and trinkets. These pieces had hugely disproportional crit damage stats before the change (exotic zerker amulet, for example, had more crit damage than exotic zerker chest, legs, and helm combined, but only had ~1/3 of the Power stat, despite Power being the primary stat). Indeed, these pieces saw the heaviest drop in effectiveness with other gear being almost identical in performance.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

WvW perhaps, but in PvP, it intentionally remained the same. Crit damage in PvP is the same as it was at launch.

One of their main targets with the crit damage-> Ferocity change was amulets, rings, and trinkets. These pieces had hugely disproportional crit damage stats before the change (exotic zerker amulet, for example, had more crit damage than exotic zerker chest, legs, and helm combined, but only had ~1/3 of the Power stat, despite Power being the primary stat). Indeed, these pieces saw the heaviest drop in effectiveness with other gear being almost identical in performance.

You’re right about the crit damage changes in pvp*, I just wanted to explain why there are “profession balances” as the person (was it you?) I replied to seems to think it’s because of PvE. Edit: Yeah, it was you ; )

• Edit²: And I also said that I have no idea why crit damage has been changed that much – it might well be that that was because of all the threads like these and thus because of pve – but it imbalanced wvw and since both are combined expect some changes which will balance wvw and imbalance pve.

All I can gather from the amount of noise in this thread is that pugging must suck.

I’m glad to be in my evil zerker meta guild.

What I gathered from this thread :
- Zerker is efficient but boring,
- Casuals enjoy pressing all the buttons,
- Berserker gear will die out to new mobs,
- Long fights are fun because active defenses won’t last,
- To have fun you must avoid speedclears and make your own builds.

To everyone who might recognize themselves in the previous statements, I’d advise you to watch the following stream : www.twitch.tv/sam_ajestey when the title contains the word “Fungeon”

You will be able to watch a hardcore PvE player doing the following things :
- Using berserker gear and meta builds on all classes and having fun doing so,
- Pressing all the buttons while screaming “MLG” and “Darude” at his screen, while doing nice rotations,
- Berserker gear dealing damage to both Dredges and Mordrems (#nodiscrimination2K14),
- Fights that don’t last long where active defense is cool AND ALSO medium to long low-manned fights where the YOLO is there to stay alive and complete the content,
- Funniest speedclears with meta builds.

Coincidentally, I also do PvP/WvW using berserker gear, so you might wanna change your ideas on gear being tied to content !

This was a shameless advertising, but I’m really sad to see people throwing weird arguments and as actions are better than words, I shall prove my opinion to be the right one by performing live !

Enaretos.8079:

What I gathered from this thread :
- Zerker is efficient but boring,
- Casuals enjoy pressing all the buttons,
- Berserker gear will die out to new mobs,
- Long fights are fun because active defenses won’t last,
- To have fun you must avoid speedclears and make your own builds.

To everyone who might recognize themselves in the previous statements, I’d advise you to watch the following stream : www.twitch.tv/sam_ajestey when the title contains the word “Fungeon”

You will be able to watch a hardcore PvE player doing the following things :
- Using berserker gear and meta builds on all classes and having fun doing so,
- Pressing all the buttons while screaming “MLG” and “Darude” at his screen, while doing nice rotations,
- Berserker gear dealing damage to both Dredges and Mordrems (#nodiscrimination2K14),
- Fights that don’t last long where active defense is cool AND ALSO medium to long low-manned fights where the YOLO is there to stay alive and complete the content,
- Funniest speedclears with meta builds.

Coincidentally, I also do PvP/WvW using berserker gear, so you might wanna change your ideas on gear being tied to content !

This was a shameless advertising, but I’m really sad to see people throwing weird arguments and as actions are better than words, I shall prove my opinion to be the right one by performing live !

Such selfadvertisement man.. :P

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why should “all glass cannon” be the most efficient way to run every dungeon?

because
1. its the way with the highest risk involved
2. its the only way that makes full use of the combat system
3. its the only way that 100% depends on player skill, teamwork and nothing else.

Linken.6345:

So since zerkers take down bosses faster it take less skill to play since less time to make any misstake, Do i have that right.

I mean if boss go down so fast he cant use his attacks you dont really need to do anything hence no skill

im pretty sure there is more skill needed and involved when bosses cannot even really scratch you because of passive damage mitigation

Can someone tell me why a lot of players only want guards and wars in their dungeon party?
I play with thief, full zerker meta build and im sure my DPS is quite the same. But still is get kicked every time because im a Thief…

I even solo dungeons with my Thief (all legal and no exploits ofc, or blind is an exploit? )
Some people have to accept more classes…

(dont say might stacking, thief is best finish blaster in game)

Fowidner.6930:

Can someone tell me why a lot of players only want guards and wars in their dungeon party?
I play with thief, full zerker meta build and im sure my DPS is quite the same. But still is get kicked every time because im a Thief…

I even solo dungeons with my Thief (all legal and no exploits ofc, or blind is an exploit? )
Some people have to accept more classes…

(dont say might stacking, thief is best finish blaster in game)

They probably had a bad experience with thieves – most of them spam shortbow in combat and die a lot on bosses. The same prejudice applies to rangers – sitting at 1200 range spamming longbow.

You will be surprised but majority of rangers and thieves are still pretty bad. More chances to find an OK warrior – all rotations and builds are very intuitive and starigth forward for this class

Fowidner.6930:

Can someone tell me why a lot of players only want guards and wars in their dungeon party?
I play with thief, full zerker meta build and im sure my DPS is quite the same. But still is get kicked every time because im a Thief…

I even solo dungeons with my Thief (all legal and no exploits ofc, or blind is an exploit? )
Some people have to accept more classes…

(dont say might stacking, thief is best finish blaster in game)

You should not have problems to find a group as a thief. You provide stealth, blinds, a ton of blasts and you do have good dps.
People want to have a guard for aegis and WOR mostly.
The thing I don’t get is why you would want more than 1 war in a party.. People still think that warrior is the top DPS..

Linken.6345:

So since zerkers take down bosses faster it take less skill to play since less time to make any misstake, Do i have that right.

I mean if boss go down so fast he cant use his attacks you dont really need to do anything hence no skill

You either rely on active defense for a short time ( well, soloing bosses give you plenty of time to make mistakes, but my solo killing times are probably lower than a 5man pug party), or don’t rely on them at all and facetank the attacks without dodging once. Guess what takes the most skill?

the thing is, no one cares about the new player

Skady.5916:

More chances to find an OK warrior – all rotations and builds are very intuitive and starigth forward for this class

OK warriors….

well, that may be true, but I find it difficult to communicate with others.
Even basic english seem to be impossible to catch.
Why?
1 Guardian, 4 warriors.
1 Warrior with BoD
1 Warrior with For Great Justice

Rest on signets.

No EA, no other banners, no more FGJ, no other shouts.

In such party it’s so freaking easy to have perma 25 Might + Fury + Additional Power and other stats from EA and banners..

But nope.

Signets ftw.

Fishae.2503:

the thing is, no one cares about the new player

Ditto! You wanna play the game? Get a zerk gear, zerk build and then stack, damage, rally, revive, rally, revive….till u reach next room and repeat.
This game wuld solve all of its the problem if the downed state could be removed completely.
in 1 hit u wuld obtain that:
1)people must learn mechanics
2)zerk addiction wuld die
3)Support/healing/tanking builds/gear wuld become viable and all the content wuld become incredibly replayable
But we are talking of a game that aims to casuals right?

zerker stat should had a litle power increased and a negative armor value

J Eberle.9312:

All I can gather from the amount of noise in this thread is that pugging must suck.

I’m glad to be in my evil zerker meta guild.

You filthy elitist, you should feel bad… Why do I feel bad…?

Savez.4657:

Fishae.2503:

the thing is, no one cares about the new player

Ditto! You wanna play the game? Get a zerk gear, zerk build and then stack, damage, rally, revive, rally, revive….till u reach next room and repeat.
This game wuld solve all of its the problem if the downed state could be removed completely.
in 1 hit u wuld obtain that:
1)people must learn mechanics
2)zerk addiction wuld die
3)Support/healing/tanking builds/gear wuld become viable and all the content wuld become incredibly replayable
But we are talking of a game that aims to casuals right?

“P1, everyone welcome”
It’s that simple, really. Removing downstate is a bad idea, and it would impact bad players more than the guys you’re jealous of.

This is what happens with you kick Aerial (ahem) Monks (erm) the healer class out of the game.

Fowidner.6930:

Can someone tell me why a lot of players only want guards and wars in their dungeon party?
I play with thief, full zerker meta build and im sure my DPS is quite the same. But still is get kicked every time because im a Thief…

I even solo dungeons with my Thief (all legal and no exploits ofc, or blind is an exploit? )
Some people have to accept more classes…

(dont say might stacking, thief is best finish blaster in game)

Path of least resistance my friend. Meatshields and nukers are easier and faster. It’s really that simple.

My main is a Thief, in GW1 it was a Sin because I enjoy such classes as opposed to facerolling the game. Such classes are always the bane of the majority because they take more skill to play but are also at risk of dropping more. That slows facerolling speed runs of content down.

Don’t let it dissuade you. Embrace the fact your a minority type player.

I remember ANet sayin’g we’ll be able to play however we want and we’ll be equal in whatever spec we want. Turns out GW2 is no different from any other MMO with holy trinity, there’s alway just one viable build per class. Atleast for PvE. How sad.

Varrg.2704:

I remember ANet sayin’g we’ll be able to play however we want and we’ll be equal in whatever spec we want. Turns out GW2 is no different from any other MMO with holy trinity, there’s alway just one viable build per class. Atleast for PvE. How sad.

every build is viable, even full naked dungeon runs. optimal is a different thing, and optimal depends on player skill.

Varrg.2704:

I remember ANet sayin’g we’ll be able to play however we want and we’ll be equal in whatever spec we want. Turns out GW2 is no different from any other MMO with holy trinity, there’s alway just one viable build per class. Atleast for PvE. How sad.

Not true.

I played my first character as a condition Thief. Had very few issues and finished the game, mapped, etc with little issue. I still roll condition on the toon and do well in both PvE and PvP. I love the play-style.

The issue is people gravitate towards the meta and popular opinion and then convert that to dogma. You are free to play however you want, if you have the friends, guild or just plain old self-confidence to stick to it and justify relevance and equality through playing well.

If you go off the forums and the meta then yeah…cookie cutter is the only way but your really losing out if you get caught up in that imho.

Its pretty obvious that during the so called 2 years of playtime, the OP has not done anything challenging with an organised group. An all zerk party isn’t all about dps. Simply wearing beserker gear doesn’t mean you aren’t a support and it also doesn’t mean you just sit there and auto attack. If any zerk person is able to sit in a stack and just auto attack and live, then he was obviously carried by his party.

There are plenty of supporting going on even in a full zerk party. A guardian will always put down hallowed ground to keep his party on his feet or wall of reflect to protect his party while amping dps from reflect. A thief will black powder/smoke screen mobs so they do not end up killing your party members. A ranger will provide frost spirit dps and spotter support while curing conditions with healing spring for you party… and the list goes on.

Its time the people start understanding that gear does not dictate your role, its your class mechanics that dictate your role. The sooner you understand this, the sooner you will wear berserker gear, learn dungeon/boss mechanics and walk away as a better player and self fulfilling as well in your “support” ideals.

Also another thing is people who run other specs get taught bad habits, especially people who use pvt/cleric gear in pve, they end up not learning mechanics and just tries to facetank everything. It is not an engaging show to see a person just facetank all the hits like a no brainer. Its much more entertaining to watch a zerker built person make good use of his active defenses to keep himself alive while trying to maintain dps.

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why should “all glass cannon” be the most efficient way to run every dungeon?

because
1. its the way with the highest risk involved
2. its the only way that makes full use of the combat system
3. its the only way that 100% depends on player skill, teamwork and nothing else.

1. Almost true. When you kill enemies before they can even fire off their third attack (and a GC ele can even tank the first two), not so much. That’s pretty close to the lowest risk.
2. Well, no it doesn’t. The “combat system” involves a lot of parts that never see use in speedruns currently, such as conditions, boon removal, snares, etc.. Balanced groups actually make closer to full use of the combat system.
3. Not so much “player skill” as “rotations”, but I will agree with teamwork. Enemies in dungeons are currently too simplistic for player skill to be a large factor. It relies more on the limitations of enemies rather than player skill.

As an aside, has anyone done speedruns of Aetherpath? I’m curious about that one because it does feature more challenging enemies.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why should “all glass cannon” be the most efficient way to run every dungeon?

because
1. its the way with the highest risk involved
2. its the only way that makes full use of the combat system
3. its the only way that 100% depends on player skill, teamwork and nothing else.

1. Almost true. When you kill enemies before they can even fire off their third attack (and a GC ele can even tank the first two), not so much. That’s pretty close to the lowest risk.
2. Well, no it doesn’t. The “combat system” involves a lot of parts that never see use in speedruns currently, such as conditions, boon removal, snares, etc.. Balanced groups actually make full use of the combat system.
3. Not so much “player skill” as “rotations”, but I will agree with teamwork. Enemies in dungeons are currently too simplistic for player skill to be a large factor. It relies more on the limitations of enemies rather than player skill.

As an aside, has anyone done speedruns of Aetherpath? I’m curious about that one because it does feature more challenging enemies.

Anyone can pull off some wierd scenarios to make X look bad.

How about fighting lupicus zerker vs cleric or pvt gear?.. see which is higher risk? hint hint, its not the cleric or pvt gear

Lifestealer.4910:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why should “all glass cannon” be the most efficient way to run every dungeon?

because
1. its the way with the highest risk involved
2. its the only way that makes full use of the combat system
3. its the only way that 100% depends on player skill, teamwork and nothing else.

1. Almost true. When you kill enemies before they can even fire off their third attack (and a GC ele can even tank the first two), not so much. That’s pretty close to the lowest risk.
2. Well, no it doesn’t. The “combat system” involves a lot of parts that never see use in speedruns currently, such as conditions, boon removal, snares, etc.. Balanced groups actually make full use of the combat system.
3. Not so much “player skill” as “rotations”, but I will agree with teamwork. Enemies in dungeons are currently too simplistic for player skill to be a large factor. It relies more on the limitations of enemies rather than player skill.

As an aside, has anyone done speedruns of Aetherpath? I’m curious about that one because it does feature more challenging enemies.

Anyone can pull off some wierd scenarios to make X look bad.

How about fighting lupicus zerker vs cleric or pvt gear?.. see which is higher risk? hint hint, its not the cleric or pvt gear

Now that they nerfed Firey Greatsword, true. The sub-15 second kills, not so much.

Again, I don’t have an issue with 5 glass cannons being the most efficient group for a dungeon. I have an issue with it being the most efficient for every dungeon.

I for myself hate all those “full zerk with gearcheck” crap that i come across if i want to run a dungeon and none of my guildies are on. On the otherside I love the that it is meta since I can sell those crappy zerk weps for rly nice prices…
Then again…all this skipping of mob groups that can’t get handled in full zerk gear makes me sad. I love dungeons. and if I want to run one then pls completly! kitten skipps and stacks…not going to happen with a good group…

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Lifestealer.4910:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why should “all glass cannon” be the most efficient way to run every dungeon?

because
1. its the way with the highest risk involved
2. its the only way that makes full use of the combat system
3. its the only way that 100% depends on player skill, teamwork and nothing else.

1. Almost true. When you kill enemies before they can even fire off their third attack (and a GC ele can even tank the first two), not so much. That’s pretty close to the lowest risk.
2. Well, no it doesn’t. The “combat system” involves a lot of parts that never see use in speedruns currently, such as conditions, boon removal, snares, etc.. Balanced groups actually make full use of the combat system.
3. Not so much “player skill” as “rotations”, but I will agree with teamwork. Enemies in dungeons are currently too simplistic for player skill to be a large factor. It relies more on the limitations of enemies rather than player skill.

As an aside, has anyone done speedruns of Aetherpath? I’m curious about that one because it does feature more challenging enemies.

Anyone can pull off some wierd scenarios to make X look bad.

How about fighting lupicus zerker vs cleric or pvt gear?.. see which is higher risk? hint hint, its not the cleric or pvt gear

Now that they nerfed Firey Greatsword, true. The sub-15 second kills, not so much.

Again, I don’t have an issue with 5 glass cannons being the most efficient group for a dungeon. I have an issue with it being the most efficient for every dungeon.

If by efficient you mean fast then no, nothing should beat out a high damage, high risk, high rewards.

Why would anything else be more efficient? Zerker gear should be the most efficient for every dungeon because it allows for a faster run. Outside of a solo run where conditions will allow for fast kills because no one else is ruining your condition stacks.

Any gear will allow you do clear any content. But why anyone would think that Solider (or any gear with defensive stats should) gear should be more efficient then zerker ( or any gear with purely offensive stats)gear is beyond me.

oxtred.7658:

Savez.4657:

Fishae.2503:

the thing is,

no one cares about the new player

Ditto! You wanna play the game? Get a zerk gear, zerk build and then stack, damage, rally,

revive, rally, revive….till u reach next room and repeat.
This game wuld solve all of its the problem if the downed state could be removed completely.
in 1 hit u wuld obtain that:
1)people must learn mechanics
2)zerk addiction wuld die
3)Support/healing/tanking builds/gear wuld become viable and all the content wuld become

incredibly replayable
But we are talking of a game that aims to casuals right?

“P1, everyone welcome”
It’s that simple, really. Removing downstate is a bad idea, and it would impact bad players more

than the guys you’re jealous of.

Jealous of who? Unskilled players doing exactly what i wrote about? (stack, attack, rally, revive

repeated up to the boredom?) Did you ever played a mmo that require skill for real? Games where

the best (granted) reward comes if you complete an event, and not if you fail it? (Blinx any1?)

Removing downstate will force players to care about what they do, cause once you are dead….you

are dead. NPE tells you nothing? And btw you confirm my theory, the game is designed for lazy

players…no-one is a bad player if you lead him to become good.
Think what you want, i shuld be masochist to be jealous of an rng based, mono-build based,

farming based game.
For your info the game is uninstalled and like that it will remain until i read that the game is

in a decent state. (but i will read about this on independent, whiteknights free forums…not

here). I was just checking the state of the game (tho actually you helped me to understand even

if u didn’t want…aka same as always…same community, same mechanics) And so far all sites are

describing the game with word that prolly i can’t repeat. Anet is a bit allergic to non-"omg this

is the best game ever" comments.
That said enjoy GW2! I’ll put my jealousy into real skill requiring Mmos…but lol. Thank you for

the infos anyway^^

p.s. the new “flood filter” is fantastic^^

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why should “all glass cannon” be the most efficient way to run every dungeon?

because
1. its the way with the highest risk involved
2. its the only way that makes full use of the combat system
3. its the only way that 100% depends on player skill, teamwork and nothing else.

1. Almost true. When you kill enemies before they can even fire off their third attack (and a GC ele can even tank the first two), not so much. That’s pretty close to the lowest risk.
2. Well, no it doesn’t. The “combat system” involves a lot of parts that never see use in speedruns currently, such as conditions, boon removal, snares, etc.. Balanced groups actually make closer to full use of the combat system.
3. Not so much “player skill” as “rotations”, but I will agree with teamwork. Enemies in dungeons are currently too simplistic for player skill to be a large factor. It relies more on the limitations of enemies rather than player skill.

As an aside, has anyone done speedruns of Aetherpath? I’m curious about that one because it does feature more challenging enemies.

1. Very few enemies in level 80 dungeons die before they get to attack. Step out of Ascalonian Catacombs please.

2. You must never have been in a speed run. Condition removal, boon removal (or prevention) and snares (in fotm) are all extremely important. When you watch a dungeon speed run record video it all happens very quickly and with lots of particle effects so I forgive you for not seeing what is happening, but believe me everything you cited exists in one encounter or another.

3. There is a reason why running with a guild group of players using speed run tactics and meta builds is better than running with pugs using speed run tactics and meta build. Player skill is quite important. And part of “good rotations” is being able to do all the supportive and control roles you are required to do without harming your dps. this is rather important. oh, and not dying which I’m told “bad zerkers” do a lot, so it can’t be that easy.

Yes, people do atherpath speed runs. Guess what? The mobs there are easy. No trash mob in atherpath is immune to blind and most dont have stability. They are easily killed by the holy trash trinity of Black Powder, Binding Blades and Ice Storm like trash in every other dungeon.

You want to know what aetherpath seems hard? Because, as far as i am aware, none of the main dungeon guilds have bothered to do an indepth video guide with encounter by encounter narration. As a result, the strategies we use in speed runs hasnt trickled down to the pug level as they have in other dungeons.

Lifestealer.4910:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why should “all glass cannon” be the most efficient way to run every dungeon?

because
1. its the way with the highest risk involved
2. its the only way that makes full use of the combat system
3. its the only way that 100% depends on player skill, teamwork and nothing else.

1. Almost true. When you kill enemies before they can even fire off their third attack (and a GC ele can even tank the first two), not so much. That’s pretty close to the lowest risk.
2. Well, no it doesn’t. The “combat system” involves a lot of parts that never see use in speedruns currently, such as conditions, boon removal, snares, etc.. Balanced groups actually make full use of the combat system.
3. Not so much “player skill” as “rotations”, but I will agree with teamwork. Enemies in dungeons are currently too simplistic for player skill to be a large factor. It relies more on the limitations of enemies rather than player skill.

As an aside, has anyone done speedruns of Aetherpath? I’m curious about that one because it does feature more challenging enemies.

Anyone can pull off some wierd scenarios to make X look bad.

How about fighting lupicus zerker vs cleric or pvt gear?.. see which is higher risk? hint hint, its not the cleric or pvt gear

Actually, that’s debatable. I would say doing it in clerics or pvt would involve the greater risk because the fight takes longer and there are more opportunities for slip ups or deaths.

Survivability in this game has much more to do with active abilities, such as dodges and blocks, and traits than it does with stats (which is a good thing but does raise some interesting questions related to gear).

The issue (not ready to call it a problem) with gear is that (in PVE at least) the difference between zerker and soldiers gear is primarily how fast you can kill a target. That’s pretty much it. Outside of damage output, gear choice really doesn’t have a palpable impact on your build or playstyle. You can dodge, block, use boons, cc the boss, etc just as much in zerker as you can in Magi’s gear.

It would be interesting to hear what the intended design was from a dev. Was gear supposed to be a strategic choice in PVE or was it meant to provide stepping stones for players to get better until they can run in full zerker (I dont think it really does either) – or is there some other logic to the stat setups we currently have?

I kinda wish that offensive stats on gear had been one area where they had deviated from other games at launch. Given the core mechanics of the game, I think it would have made more sense to give everyone the same power, condi damage, crit rating and ferocity and only put defensive stat combinations (vitality, toughness, healing power, boon duration, etc) on armor. That would have made balance easier but still given gear stats some use.

Dungeon speed clears are about repetition and memory retention.

Skill?lol

I don’t see them often, but there is an elementalist rotation which uses a large earth shatter skill. Its a rotation a friend of mine used before rage quiting – as well as about 3 other elementalists I’ve seen since then.

It is the most devastating PvE rotation I’ve seen across all the classes. I cant mentally handle the elemental switching and timing required to do it (and the complex clicking) but every time I’ve seen someone pull it off, the zerk runs I’ve been in have ended 2-3 minutes sooner then usual – which is impressive given how fast zerking runs go anyway?

Why did friend rage quit? He came back to the game to give it another try, entered a zerker group with full zerker gear elementalist and was near insta-kicked for not playing the boon/healing elementalist rotation that zerkers are familiar with.

What I’ve found upsetting with many pug zerker groups is that zerk gear often seems to be a replacement for intelligence. Don’t like what someone’s doing? Take note of the clear speed of dungeon events before kicking people for performing acts beyond your comprehension. You dying because there’s an unfamiliar rotation user in your party (and the boss fight finishes as fast as usual without your added dps), look to your own incompetence before blaming the stranger -.-

fireflyry.7023:

Dungeon speed clears are about repetition and memory retention.

Skill?lol

It should be easy for you and your friends to memorize the super simple encounters and break every speed run record. And since no skill is required I’m sure you could easily beat the current no-skill Lupicus solo times for multiple professions.

Will do. I’ll post it here soon.

fireflyry.7023:

I played my first character as a condition Thief.
…
If you go off the forums and the meta then yeah…cookie cutter is the only way but your really losing out if you get caught up in that imho.

So condi thief isn’t the meta? :o

Well it isn’t for pve and I feel I don’t really do that good as a condi thief in pve – the opposite is the case in wvw. But that’s me.

Savez.4657:

oxtred.7658:

Savez.4657:

Fishae.2503:

the thing is,

no one cares about the new player

Ditto! You wanna play the game? Get a zerk gear, zerk build and then stack, damage, rally,

revive, rally, revive….till u reach next room and repeat.
This game wuld solve all of its the problem if the downed state could be removed completely.
in 1 hit u wuld obtain that:
1)people must learn mechanics
2)zerk addiction wuld die
3)Support/healing/tanking builds/gear wuld become viable and all the content wuld become

incredibly replayable
But we are talking of a game that aims to casuals right?

“P1, everyone welcome”
It’s that simple, really. Removing downstate is a bad idea, and it would impact bad players more

than the guys you’re jealous of.

Jealous of who? Unskilled players doing exactly what i wrote about? (stack, attack, rally, revive

repeated up to the boredom?) Did you ever played a mmo that require skill for real? Games where

the best (granted) reward comes if you complete an event, and not if you fail it? (Blinx any1?)

Removing downstate will force players to care about what they do, cause once you are dead….you

are dead. NPE tells you nothing? And btw you confirm my theory, the game is designed for lazy

players…no-one is a bad player if you lead him to become good.
Think what you want, i shuld be masochist to be jealous of an rng based, mono-build based,

farming based game.
For your info the game is uninstalled and like that it will remain until i read that the game is

in a decent state. (but i will read about this on independent, whiteknights free forums…not

here). I was just checking the state of the game (tho actually you helped me to understand even

if u didn’t want…aka same as always…same community, same mechanics) And so far all sites are

describing the game with word that prolly i can’t repeat. Anet is a bit allergic to non-"omg this

is the best game ever" comments.
That said enjoy GW2! I’ll put my jealousy into real skill requiring Mmos…but lol. Thank you for

the infos anyway^^

p.s. the new “flood filter” is fantastic^^

I spent 5 minutes reading this bad written bullkitten just to learn you have quitted? meh.

Talyn.3295:

If by efficient you mean fast then no, nothing should beat out a high damage, high risk, high rewards.

Why would anything else be more efficient? Zerker gear should be the most efficient for every dungeon because it allows for a faster run. Outside of a solo run where conditions will allow for fast kills because no one else is ruining your condition stacks.

Any gear will allow you do clear any content. But why anyone would think that Solider (or any gear with defensive stats should) gear should be more efficient then zerker ( or any gear with purely offensive stats)gear is beyond me.

You’re trying to proof something while using what you have to proof in your proof. That does not make for good logic. I mean why should zerker get the fatsre kill times? We could introduce mechanics that allow you trade in survivabilty for damage. Same high risk, same high rewards, just different gear/builds.

fireflyry.7023:

Will do. I’ll post it here soon.

Now this is entertaining.