Guild Wars 2

Talyn.3295:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Lifestealer.4910:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Why should “all glass cannon” be the most efficient way to run every dungeon?

because
1. its the way with the highest risk involved
2. its the only way that makes full use of the combat system
3. its the only way that 100% depends on player skill, teamwork and nothing else.

1. Almost true. When you kill enemies before they can even fire off their third attack (and a GC ele can even tank the first two), not so much. That’s pretty close to the lowest risk.
2. Well, no it doesn’t. The “combat system” involves a lot of parts that never see use in speedruns currently, such as conditions, boon removal, snares, etc.. Balanced groups actually make full use of the combat system.
3. Not so much “player skill” as “rotations”, but I will agree with teamwork. Enemies in dungeons are currently too simplistic for player skill to be a large factor. It relies more on the limitations of enemies rather than player skill.

As an aside, has anyone done speedruns of Aetherpath? I’m curious about that one because it does feature more challenging enemies.

Anyone can pull off some wierd scenarios to make X look bad.

How about fighting lupicus zerker vs cleric or pvt gear?.. see which is higher risk? hint hint, its not the cleric or pvt gear

Now that they nerfed Firey Greatsword, true. The sub-15 second kills, not so much.

Again, I don’t have an issue with 5 glass cannons being the most efficient group for a dungeon. I have an issue with it being the most efficient for every dungeon.

If by efficient you mean fast then no, nothing should beat out a high damage, high risk, high rewards.

Why would anything else be more efficient? Zerker gear should be the most efficient for every dungeon because it allows for a faster run. Outside of a solo run where conditions will allow for fast kills because no one else is ruining your condition stacks.

Any gear will allow you do clear any content. But why anyone would think that Solider (or any gear with defensive stats should) gear should be more efficient then zerker ( or any gear with purely offensive stats)gear is beyond me.

Ideally, enemies would be dangerous enough to force glass cannons to back off frequently. More durable characters may have lower damage output, but be more consistent as well. Because AI in dungeons don’t use defensive abilities and attack so slowly that Blinding Powder shuts them all down, this isn’t the case. They die in the initial burst or they don’t land anything in the time it takes for the rest of the group to finish them off. The risk is actually lower in many cases if you go glass cannon because your active defenses hold out long enough.

Consider in PvP. 5 glass cannons is not the ideal setup there because players defend themselves and aren’t completely shut down by blind because they attack more frequently than you can blind. They also move out of the blind fields. However, glass cannons do have a place there in efficient teams. They just aren’t the be-all-end-all like in dungeons. In PvE, it’s Zerk or go home. PvP and WvW, there are a lot more in viable options and an all zerk group is likely to get demolished.

Ideally, dungeon enemies would have mechanics that prevent all-glass cannon from being very effective. This does not mean that you couldn’t aim for 3 glass cannon and 2 more durable, though. For example, a dungeon featuring lots of mobs with very high Toughness would push out Zerker for Rabid, Carrion, or Sinister for at least one party slot. Why? Because stack & smack Zerker doesn’t kill them as fast as a condition damage build would. This is one, very simple thing that can be done to immedietly open up more versatile compositions.

The only way this “zerker” meta will ever see a shakeup is enemy overhauls. I realize this is a lot of work, but it really does need to happen.

oxtred.7658:

Savez.4657:

oxtred.7658:

Savez.4657:

Fishae.2503:

the thing is,

no one cares about the new player

Ditto! You wanna play the game? Get a zerk gear, zerk build and then stack, damage, rally,

revive, rally, revive….till u reach next room and repeat.
This game wuld solve all of its the problem if the downed state could be removed completely.
in 1 hit u wuld obtain that:
1)people must learn mechanics
2)zerk addiction wuld die
3)Support/healing/tanking builds/gear wuld become viable and all the content wuld become

incredibly replayable
But we are talking of a game that aims to casuals right?

“P1, everyone welcome”
It’s that simple, really. Removing downstate is a bad idea, and it would impact bad players more

than the guys you’re jealous of.

Jealous of who? Unskilled players doing exactly what i wrote about? (stack, attack, rally, revive

repeated up to the boredom?) Did you ever played a mmo that require skill for real? Games where

the best (granted) reward comes if you complete an event, and not if you fail it? (Blinx any1?)

Removing downstate will force players to care about what they do, cause once you are dead….you

are dead. NPE tells you nothing? And btw you confirm my theory, the game is designed for lazy

players…no-one is a bad player if you lead him to become good.
Think what you want, i shuld be masochist to be jealous of an rng based, mono-build based,

farming based game.
For your info the game is uninstalled and like that it will remain until i read that the game is

in a decent state. (but i will read about this on independent, whiteknights free forums…not

here). I was just checking the state of the game (tho actually you helped me to understand even

if u didn’t want…aka same as always…same community, same mechanics) And so far all sites are

describing the game with word that prolly i can’t repeat. Anet is a bit allergic to non-"omg this

is the best game ever" comments.
That said enjoy GW2! I’ll put my jealousy into real skill requiring Mmos…but lol. Thank you for

the infos anyway^^

p.s. the new “flood filter” is fantastic^^

I spent 5 minutes reading this bad written bullkitten just to learn you have quitted? meh.

yup, it was a test to see how much people get overwhelmed by simple things :-p
say thanks to the new anti-flood engine if the post is unreadable, i copy-pasted the text into a document waiting for the posting-ability to be ready…then i got sick and posted it as it was…they can’t even create a proper functioning forum. What u want from me? :-p
p.s. u’ll be able to repost after 3600 seconds that will last a random number of seconds^^
p.p.s. u shuld not read bullkitten posts, it’s masochistic

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The only way this “zerker” meta will ever see a shakeup is enemy overhauls. I realize this is a lot of work, but it really does need to happen.

what needs to happen is overhauls of the way people like you are thinking.
and this post is proof that you dont understand the gw2 combat system.

if you think passive damage mitigation > player skill then gw2 is probably not for you.

skilled players will always be able to use the most offensive gear set. there is nothing you can do about it. and being kitten because your play how you want build is not as effective wont help you or anyone else.

you can play how you want. nobody is going to take it away from you.
so dont take away the ability from other players to play how they want.

Jana.6831:

fireflyry.7023:

I played my first character as a condition Thief.
…
If you go off the forums and the meta then yeah…cookie cutter is the only way but your really losing out if you get caught up in that imho.

So condi thief isn’t the meta? :o

Well it isn’t for pve and I feel I don’t really do that good as a condi thief in pve – the opposite is the case in wvw. But that’s me.

I just enjoy the play style over running the cookie cutter meta, I mean 99% of PvE could be accomplished by a trained gerbil called Frank face rolling the keyboard anyway. Just like P/D in WvW.

Unfortunately the developers stated in the latest CDI that they are perfectly fine creating content around this giant freaking flaw in the system rather than fixing it. The zerker meta isn’t going away and neither are the pompous people who attempt to enforce it.

If you want to join something and there are nothing but zerker parties, just join anyway, it is none of their bleeding business what your build is, and not your fault that ANet’s design standards are so low.

Conncept.7638:

Unfortunately the developers stated in the latest CDI that they are perfectly fine creating content around this giant freaking flaw in the system rather than fixing it. The zerker meta isn’t going away and neither are the pompous people who attempt to enforce it.

If you want to join something and there are nothing but zerker parties, just join anyway, it is none of their bleeding business what your build is, and not your fault that ANet’s design standards are so low.

And here ladies and gentlemen is a perfect exemple of how toxic berserker users are.. Oh, wait, you’rethe one hating on them because your tanky build can’t carry you at light speed.

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The only way this “zerker” meta will ever see a shakeup is enemy overhauls. I realize this is a lot of work, but it really does need to happen.

what needs to happen is overhauls of the way people like you are thinking.
and this post is proof that you dont understand the gw2 combat system.

if you think passive damage mitigation > player skill then gw2 is probably not for you.

I think I understand it a lot better than you do. Passive mitigation is lesser than active defense. Always has been, always will be. Taking 0 damage is always better than taking a greatly lessened amount. However, active defense is only ever balanced if it eventually fails. In current dungeons , this doesn’t happen. Active defense outsrips incoming attacks by a significant margin.

No, where you see true skill is when you can’t avoid everything. Then you see the skill of picking what you avoid instead of just saying “lol, enemy’s attacking, let’s avoid it completely.”

That said, being unable to avoid everything will require lessened damage per-hit from the mobs to keep unmitigated DPS about the same. It will, however, bring out real skill.

Conncept.7638:

If you want to join something and there are nothing but zerker parties, just join anyway, it is none of their bleeding business what your build is

You are free to do that. and they are free to kick you when they figure it out, and you ought not to be mad about it when it happens.

oxtred.7658:

Conncept.7638:

Unfortunately the developers stated in the latest CDI that they are perfectly fine creating content around this giant freaking flaw in the system rather than fixing it. The zerker meta isn’t going away and neither are the pompous people who attempt to enforce it.

If you want to join something and there are nothing but zerker parties, just join anyway, it is none of their bleeding business what your build is, and not your fault that ANet’s design standards are so low.

And here ladies and gentlemen is a perfect exemple of how toxic berserker users are.. Oh, wait, you’rethe one hating on them because your tanky build can’t carry you at light speed.

Actually I’ve joined hundreds of zerker parties under a tanky condition build, and so long as I am the only condition build in the party, I don’t slow them down at all, never been kicked, never even been noticed.

You on the other hand are an example of exactly what is wrong with this system. You have no right, whatsoever, to tell other people how they should play before EVER seeing how the play works. IF someone joins and they aren’t pulling their weight, go ahead and kick them, I’ll be honest when I joined zerker parties for the first time I didn’t know it would work and and was fulling expecting to be kicked, but I wasn’t because I did nothing contrary to what the party wanted. No rule requires that I nor anyone else need to cater to your ill-informed obsession.

I can spot builds and traits along with your exact gear distribution after the first trash mob by seeing how much damage, what boons and what utilities you used. I’d have kicked you immediately. If you want to play your way, and 4 berserker users come and speedclear the content, are they within their right? Difference is, at least in that case you got carried.

oxtred.7658:

I can spot builds and traits along with your exact gear distribution after the first trash mob by seeing how much damage, what boons and what utilities you used. I’d have kicked you immediately. If you want to play your way, and 4 berserker users come and speedclear the content, are they within their right? Difference is, at least in that case you got carried.

Assume all you like, prejudice is not evidence. I was carried by no one, my build was full DPS, only tanky because full DPS on a condimancer only requires two stats unlike with power, leaving room for a tanky stat whether or not you need it.

I play how, where, and when I like. It is ANets job to make the game so that I can do that, as that is how they advertised the game in the first place. Their failure to make a system under which I can do that is not my problem so long as I am not damaging other players time in game, and I will not change how I play because of their failure or because of how you or anyone else supports it.

And your dps was awfully low each time a guardian proc’d his own burning or a war stole 10 bleed stacks from you. Yay.

Conncept.7638:

Unfortunately the developers stated in the latest CDI that they are perfectly fine creating content around this giant freaking flaw in the system rather than fixing it. The zerker meta isn’t going away and neither are the pompous people who attempt to enforce it.

If you want to join something and there are nothing but zerker parties, just join anyway, it is none of their bleeding business what your build is, and not your fault that ANet’s design standards are so low.

nobody is trying to enforce the “zerker meta”. but its you people who are trying to enforce your play how you want builds.

what is better, tanking a hit, or reacting properly and avoiding the hit through player skill? ask yourself and think about it for some time.
just look at this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNMltxyvAvo
a berserker player would have to play very active and avoid things, or in other words, play good to survive and kill the spider queen.

the giant freaking flaw is that you insist to play tanks and healers in a game that was advertised with “this is a skill based game” without a trinity.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I think I understand it a lot better than you do.

No, where you see true skill is when you can’t avoid everything. Then you see the skill of picking what you avoid instead of just saying “lol, enemy’s attacking, let’s avoid it completely.”

That said, being unable to avoid everything will require lessened damage per-hit from the mobs to keep unmitigated DPS about the same. It will, however, bring out real skill.

read your first sentence, and then the others. you do realize that something is not right?

“lol, enemy’s attacking, let’s tank it completely.”
fixed this for you.

Conncept.7638:

and I will not change how I play because of their failure or because of how you or anyone else supports it.

fine.
and we will not change how we play because of you failing to understand the games basic mechanics and combat system.

play how you want.
so where is the problem now?

oxtred.7658:

And your dps was awfully low each time a guardian proc’d his own burning or a war stole 10 bleed stacks from you. Yay.

Shouldn’t they know not to do this and drop their group’s dps? Selfish players…

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

I think I understand it a lot better than you do.

No, where you see true skill is when you can’t avoid everything. Then you see the skill of picking what you avoid instead of just saying “lol, enemy’s attacking, let’s avoid it completely.”

That said, being unable to avoid everything will require lessened damage per-hit from the mobs to keep unmitigated DPS about the same. It will, however, bring out real skill.

read your first sentence, and then the others. you do realize that something is not right?

“lol, enemy’s attacking, let’s tank it completely.”
fixed this for you.

So, what you’re saying, is that avoiding absolutely everything is somehow more skilled than choosing which X of Y (when Y>X) attacks to actually avoid and which to just take? One involves decision-making. The other is a simple If-then statement. Last I checked, skill was about correct decisions, which means there actually has to be a decision made.

I wonder how long are you thinking those great suggestions, but it’s been 2 years and you still all don’t get why it won’t work.

Mobs get unavoidable attacks along with their normal avoidables hits> the goal is to take the less damage possible> go berserker, ice bow, mob is dead> enforces the berserker meta

oxtred.7658:

And your dps was awfully low each time a guardian proc’d his own burning or a war stole 10 bleed stacks from you. Yay.

More hyperbolic assumption. You are assuming I don’t know how to play my class, just because you obviously do not even know how it works. I initiate the fights, I lay my conditions first, and I keep them on the whole fight. The only way I’m not dealing my max DPS is when someone else has built condition duration. And I already said earlier that I am well aware this doesn’t work when you have another condimancer in the party, but that is ANets problem to deal with, not mine. If they want to kick one of us they are welcome to, I wouldn’t blame them nor feel excluded. They are looking out for how they want to play just as I am. It’s ANets fault we can’t play how we want, not theirs, and as such not their fault.

Conncept.7638:

You on the other hand are an example of exactly what is wrong with this system. You have no right, whatsoever, to tell other people how they should play before EVER seeing how the play works. IF someone joins and they aren’t pulling their weight, go ahead and kick them, I’ll be honest when I joined zerker parties for the first time I didn’t know it would work and and was fulling expecting to be kicked, but I wasn’t because I did nothing contrary to what the party wanted. No rule requires that I nor anyone else need to cater to your ill-informed obsession.

Best thing I’ve read in this thread.

This is where zerk fails. It’s veiled elitism at it’s finest.

You keep them on the whole fight except if I decide to cap 20 bleeds on my own with my engineer. Oh, and I’ve 100% uptime on burning as well, so you better have luck and get those conditions for yourself. You obviously don’t know how to play your class in a group setting.

NoTrigger.8396:

nobody is trying to enforce the “zerker meta”. but its you people who are trying to enforce your play how you want builds.

Check again, there is a post in the latests CDI from a developer, in response to my critique of the game system, that blatantly states they have no intention of doing anything about how the dodge and stat system enforce the meta. They would prefer to just make the new content ‘around’ that flaw, rather than fixing it.

And really, enforcing ‘play how you want’?

KITTEN YOU GEORGE WASHINGTON FOR ENFORCING FREEDOM! WHAT RIGHT DID YOU HAVE TO DECIDE THAT WE EVEN WANTED FREEDOM!?

You’re enforcing " Play how I want", not play how you want. The difference is your philosophy is " duck my teammates, I play how i want", and ours is “i’m playing any class i want with the strats my team and I chose, but I’ll make sure to bring the maximum support so they don’t have to compensate for my spot”.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

….

ill give you a tipp. ask some decent players to run a dungeon with you and let them explain why they do X Y Z. maybe you will wake up.

and with decent i mean decent and not “5k ap zerk or kick” pugs.

other than that you are completely wrong but im not going to write you a detailed explanation. because talking to you people is like talking to a wall. you simply refuse to understand the basics of the game.

Conncept.7638:

They would prefer to just make the new content ‘around’ that flaw, rather than fixing it.

have you ever spend a second to think about if you are maybe just wrong and your way of seeing things is wrong?
have you ever spend a second to try to realize that the devs dont need to fix what isnt broken?
have you ever spend a single second to try to realize that just because you feel something is “flawed”, it doesnt mean its a fact?

oxtred.7658:

You’re enforcing " Play how I want", not play how you want. The difference is your philosophy is " duck my teammates, I play how i want", and ours is “i’m playing any class i want with the strats my team and I chose, but I’ll make sure to bring the maximum support so they don’t have to compensate for my spot”.

Please explain how that works, seeing as I am not telling a single other person to play in any way at all?

Bring in your nomads gear with an inventory full of rock environmental weapons as your only attack for all I care, if it works then it works, if it doesn’t then don’t expected to be treated as if it does. At no point have I ever stated I want people to play a certain way, I want people to have options as ANet said we would have before launch. If you want to play zerkers go ahead, if you don’t you shouldn’t have to in order to meet anyone else’ expectations.

You have got a serious problem with telling people what they have said without actually having read what they said.

That’s mainly because you don’t even understand what you are saying. You just said earlier you went into parties advertised as berserker only, and you were fine getting carried in those. So, you made 4 people loose their time, and if any wipe occured, it could have been prevented by you going meta. You leeched the party, and feel like it’s totally acceptable. Fine. But don’t blame the mechanics when you can’t do it every time.

NoTrigger.8396:

Conncept.7638:

They would prefer to just make the new content ‘around’ that flaw, rather than fixing it.

have you ever spend a second to think about if you are maybe just wrong and your way of seeing things is wrong?
have you ever spend a second to try to realize that the devs dont need to fix what isnt broken?
have you ever spend a single second to try to realize that just because you feel something is “flawed”, it doesnt mean its a fact?

No, I’ve made several redesigns to the system and spent most of my life studying design in every form, without ever thinking about it. /rollseyes

I am not the one failing to think here, you are. We basically have two system, an active live play system, and a passive pre-game play system. In most games they work in kind to create build diversity and varying combat. Except in GW2 aspects of the active system, namely dodge and player to mob mechanics, make more than half of the games passive system completely pointless. Anyone with an iota of design can see the flaw there, even the developers know this system is broken and flawed, they just aren’t willing to put in the time to fix it.

oxtred.7658:

That’s mainly because you don’t even understand what you are saying.

No that would be you. Because you cannot think beyond assumptions based on your own prejudices gleaned from second hand information you haven’t even checked is true yourself. I caused no one any loss of time, never caused a wipe, never griefed. Therefore I neither ‘leeched’ nor ever broke any rules. I just didn’t meet their, or your standards, and guess what? I don’t have to, and neither does anyone else. If people play how you want it is a courtesy to you, not a requirement of them. But the system should not be so broken in the first place as to have anyone requiring any particular play of anyone else.

NoTrigger.8396:

Conncept.7638:

They would prefer to just make the new content ‘around’ that flaw, rather than fixing it.

have you ever spend a second to think about if you are maybe just wrong and your way of seeing things is wrong?
have you ever spend a second to try to realize that the devs dont need to fix what isnt broken?
have you ever spend a single second to try to realize that just because you feel something is “flawed”, it doesnt mean its a fact?

Have you?

Clearly, you’re 100% convinced that, because this is how it has been, it is clearly the way it should be. Is it broken? Not really, as the game does function properly. This doesn’t mean it is not flawed. Dungeon tokens taking up inventory space wasn’t broken, but it was flawed. The old transmutation stones worked perfectly, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t have issues.

The reason why the devs are developing new content “around the issue” is because fixing it in existing content requires a complete enemy overhaul. That is far more work than is necessary when the content functions just fine. The issue with that is from elitists like yourself. New content they have to develop from scratch anyway so they might as well improve upon earlier stuff and actually try to solve the flaws.

If standards doesn’t matter as no one has to care about them, why are you attacking the meta? Keep yourself away from it. Until Any berserker player comes into your group and kick you, because it’s perfectly his right to do so, since he had different standards than you but it doesn’t matter. Right?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The issue with that is from elitists like yourself.

can you try to google the word elitist and try to realize what the difference between elitist and elite is? thank you

Conncept.7638:

there is a post in the latests CDI from a developer, in response to my critique of the game system, that blatantly states they have no intention of doing anything about how the dodge and stat system

i have never defended arenanet or their decisions and when it comes to their decisions im very critical.
but in this case i will defend them. what the devs have stated in the CDI is that they actually understand their own game and this gives many above average players hope for the future.

now i have a simple question for anti berserker elitists.

why is and should it be right when you play how you want,
but why isnt it and why shouldnt it be right when “we” play how we want?

oxtred.7658:

If standards doesn’t matter as no one has to care about them, why are you attacking the meta? Keep yourself away from it. Until Any berserker player comes into your group and kick you, because it’s perfectly his right to do so, since he had different standards than you but it doesn’t matter. Right?

The problem is this:

Step one: New player posts about a build that he thought might be fun. It is far from the meta, but would work if he/she works at it enough.

Step two: Zerker meta elitists post saying “No, no, no. You need zerker gear to even hope to play PvE.”

Step three: New player accepts this and gets the meta build.

Step four: New player, now unable to use the fun idea they had, gets bored.

Step five: This continues and a lot of players quit the game.

oxtred.7658:

If standards doesn’t matter as no one has to care about them, why are you attacking the meta? Keep yourself away from it. Until Any berserker player comes into your group and kick you, because it’s perfectly his right to do so, since he had different standards than you but it doesn’t matter. Right?

If a Zerker player comes into my group and kicks me, he is very much in the wrong (unless I was being an kitten to someone in the group or I advertised a speedrun and forgot an important aspect). My own setup doesn’t matter in this instance, because I formed the group with expectations that were being met.

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The issue with that is from elitists like yourself.

can you try to google the word elitist and try to realize what the difference between elitist and elite is? thank you

e·lit·ist
??l?d?st,??l?d?st/
noun
adjective: elitist; noun: elitist; plural noun: elitists

1.
a person who believes that a system or society should be ruled or dominated by an elite.
synonyms: aristocrat, blue blood;
snob
“the elitists wield too much influence”

adjective
adjective: elitist

1.
favoring, advocating, or restricted to an elite.
“the old, elitist image of the string quartet”
synonyms: aristocratic, snobbish, snobby, superior, supercilious; More

Describing you perfectly. Your point?

So you don’t mind being kicked from the parties you leeched from the meta players? As they formed the group with expectations that were being met. Or are you so special this rule doesn’t apply to you? I guess so, according to what you said.

oxtred.7658:

So you don’t mind being kicked from the parties you leeched from the meta players? As they formed the group with expectations that were being met. Or are you so special this rule doesn’t apply to you? I guess so, according to what you said.

Nothing like that was ever said

This conversation is starting to get a bit out of hand me thinks…..

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

The only way this “zerker” meta will ever see a shakeup is enemy overhauls. I realize this is a lot of work, but it really does need to happen.

if you think passive damage mitigation > player skill then gw2 is probably not for you.

skilled players will always be able to use the most offensive gear set. there is nothing you can do about it. and being kitten because your play how you want build is not as effective wont help you or anyone else.

you can play how you want. nobody is going to take it away from you.
so dont take away the ability from other players to play how they want.

I partially agree with this.

First of all, I want to note (again, briefly) I am not full zerker. I am half. The rest is knights/soldier.

Second thing is, you’re right. In most cases, if you are skilled enough you play full zerk, because you know what the things you fight do and know when you need to dode.

Nothing against that, no need to take that away from you.

That does not absolutely remove the usability of other armors in half-pug, full pug, or Open World bosses though (Not to mention WVW where full zerk gets you melted.).

In a group where everyone knows what to do, is focused on obtaining the reward as quickly as possible, and is familiar with their class = Zerk is what you roll with.

Anything else = probably not.

This of course means that people who play (non zerk) should not feel entitled to muscle their way into a “zerk only” seeking party, but Zerk is still not the be-all, end-all stat distrib. for all content. It is niche for experienced dungeon speedruns and organized players.

oxtred.7658:

So you don’t mind being kicked from the parties you leeched from the meta players? As they formed the group with expectations that were being met. Or are you so special this rule doesn’t apply to you? I guess so, according to what you said.

Did I ever say I joined speedruns if I wasn’t running a meta build? No, I did not. If they’re advertsing for a speed run and I don’t feel like meeting that expectation, I don’t join. You’re doing an excellent job of shoving words into someone else’s mouth.

Conncept.7638:

Assume all you like, prejudice is not evidence. I was carried by no one, my build was full DPS, only tanky because full DPS on a condimancer only requires two stats unlike with power, leaving room for a tanky stat whether or not you need it.

Maybe someone can enlighten me on this as I’m very confused.

Since when was full damage per second the same as damage over time?

He claims he’s full DPS when he uses conditions that damage over time. Perhaps I’m missing something?

Tim.6450:

Talyn.3295:

If by efficient you mean fast then no, nothing should beat out a high damage, high risk, high rewards.

Why would anything else be more efficient? Zerker gear should be the most efficient for every dungeon because it allows for a faster run. Outside of a solo run where conditions will allow for fast kills because no one else is ruining your condition stacks.

Any gear will allow you do clear any content. But why anyone would think that Solider (or any gear with defensive stats should) gear should be more efficient then zerker ( or any gear with purely offensive stats)gear is beyond me.

You’re trying to proof something while using what you have to proof in your proof. That does not make for good logic. I mean why should zerker get the fatsre kill times? We could introduce mechanics that allow you trade in survivabilty for damage. Same high risk, same high rewards, just different gear/builds.

We already have mechanics that allow you to trade in survivability for damage… IT’S CALLED ZERKER GEAR!

Seriously… this is just common sense. You sacrifice all your survival stats for damage stats so you can kill bosses faster. That is literally the point of zerker gear. Of course it is the most efficient.

If I could kill a boss faster using defensive gear while also taking less damage from the bosses… then why would anyone wear anything other than that?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Describing you perfectly. Your point?

i am not the guy who wants to force you to play something you dont like.
its the other way around.

now i have a simple question for you anti berserker elitists.

why is and should it be right when you play how you want,
but why isnt it and why shouldnt it be right when “we” play how we want?

can you give me an answer please?

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I partially agree with this.

First of all, I want to note (again, briefly) I am not full zerker. I am half. The rest is knights/soldier.

Second thing is, you’re right. In most cases, if you are skilled enough you play full zerk, because you know what the things you fight do and know when you need to dode.

Nothing against that, no need to take that away from you.

That does not absolutely remove the usability of other armors in half-pug, full pug, or Open World bosses though (Not to mention WVW where full zerk gets you melted.).

In a group where everyone knows what to do, is focused on obtaining the reward as quickly as possible, and is familiar with their class = Zerk is what you roll with.

Anything else = probably not.

This of course means that people who play (non zerk) should not feel entitled to muscle their way into a “zerk only” seeking party, but Zerk is still not the be-all, end-all stat distrib. for all content. It is niche for experienced dungeon speedruns and organized players.

im glad there are people who understand. thank you

this whole discussion would be unnecessary if the anti berserker crowd would simply accept the fact that nobody is going to stop them from playing how they want. and so they should not try to stop us from using our playstyle.
but instead, they are selfish and egoistic and would be better off playing a single player game if they cannot deal with other peoples playstyles or wishes.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

oxtred.7658:

So you don’t mind being kicked from the parties you leeched from the meta players? As they formed the group with expectations that were being met. Or are you so special this rule doesn’t apply to you? I guess so, according to what you said.

Did I ever say I joined speedruns if I wasn’t running a meta build? No, I did not. If they’re advertsing for a speed run and I don’t feel like meeting that expectation, I don’t join. You’re doing an excellent job of shoving words into someone else’s mouth.

I wasn’t adressing to you. I was refering to this:

Actually I’ve joined hundreds of zerker parties under a tanky condition build, and so long as I am the only condition build in the party, I don’t slow them down at all, never been kicked, never even been noticed.
I’ll be honest when I joined zerker parties for the first time I didn’t know it would work and and was fulling expecting to be kicked, but I wasn’t because I did nothing contrary to what the party wanted. No rule requires that I nor anyone else need to cater to your ill-informed obsession.

Ayrilana.1396:

Conncept.7638:

Assume all you like, prejudice is not evidence. I was carried by no one, my build was full DPS, only tanky because full DPS on a condimancer only requires two stats unlike with power, leaving room for a tanky stat whether or not you need it.

Maybe someone can enlighten me on this as I’m very confused.

Since when was full damage per second the same as damage over time?

He claims he’s full DPS when he uses conditions that damage over time. Perhaps I’m missing something?

Those are literally the same thing, all you did was switch second for time, which both have the same units. DPS refers to how much damage you do on average, every second.

This works out to about:
12,000 damage every second for a zerker character
8000 damage every second for a condition character
6000 damage every second for a clerics character

Full DPS just refers to the maximum amount of damage someone can do based on the gear they are wearing, which roughly corresponds to the number above.

NoTrigger.8396:

im glad there are people who understand. thank you

this whole discussion would be unnecessary if the anti berserker crowd would simply accept the fact that nobody is going to stop them from playing how they want. and so they should not try to stop us from using our playstyle.
but instead, they are selfish and egoistic and would be better off playing a single player game if they cannot deal with other peoples playstyles or wishes.

I think there’s a disconnect between different groups of non-zerk and different groups of full zerk.

With that being said:

• The people playing full zerk want to finish the content as fast as possible and know
  what they need to do to not blow up. Not Zerker/ Not Experienced? dont slow them down.

• Zerker has less place in “Open World” PVE/WVW./PVP. All of these modes focus on
  team effort / working with players that may be new to the content.

• Zerker has less place in Half and Full Pug Groups. New/pickup players tend to not know what they are doing and will need a slower pace to complete the dungeon.

There’s no reason to jump right into the “LFZerk” parties if you don’t meet them. 99% of the game is available for you to play geared however you want. They’re just fast tracking it to farm, and time is lost if your dps isn’t contributing as much as it possibly can. There’s need for more tanks in Open world/WVW/PVP where support of a specific individual or groups of individuals are important, and movement patterns cant be memorized.

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Describing you perfectly. Your point?

i am not the guy who wants to force you to play something you dont like.
its the other way around.

Wow, reversed from the truth, it seems.

I want to play my necromancer in dungeons, but the elitist attitude makes that very difficult, for example. What I want is for there to be dungeon paths where 5 zerkers is not the optimal setup. Why? That not only creates openings for different builds, but it also will involve much more interesting mechanics in the dungeon. More decisions to be made and interesting mechanics will make the entire experience much better. Want to play Glass Cannon? You can, just don’t expect to set speed records in there doing it with 4 others that do the same.

For example, having a part of a dungeon path that requires holding a capture point for a certain amount of time would favor team comps other than 5 zerker because the goal isn’t “kill the enemy before it kills you.” You could still do it, sure, but it would be tougher. This is a very simple example of something that could be done to add variety to dungeon paths and make the whole experience more interesting. Another possibility would be saving prisoners, getting better rewards for having more escape. Again, it favors builds that are not zerker, but you can still accomplish it with 5-zerk.

Again, I don’t have an issue with 5-zerk being the optimal choice for a dungeon, the issue is that it’s optimal for every dungeon.

TLDR: I want dungeons where the most optimal route is a mix of builds, not optimized purely for group DPS. This will invlove different enemy mechanics as well as different dungeon mechanics as a whole.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Ayrilana.1396:

Conncept.7638:

Assume all you like, prejudice is not evidence. I was carried by no one, my build was full DPS, only tanky because full DPS on a condimancer only requires two stats unlike with power, leaving room for a tanky stat whether or not you need it.

Maybe someone can enlighten me on this as I’m very confused.

Since when was full damage per second the same as damage over time?

He claims he’s full DPS when he uses conditions that damage over time. Perhaps I’m missing something?

Those are literally the same thing, all you did was switch second for time, which both have the same units. DPS refers to how much damage you do on average, every second.

This works out to about:
12,000 damage every second for a zerker character
8000 damage every second for a condition character
6000 damage every second for a clerics character

Full DPS just refers to the maximum amount of damage someone can do based on the gear they are wearing, which roughly corresponds to the number above.

Yep and how exactly is condition damage on par with direct damage? Perhaps I should have led with that. I can wear tank gear and claim to be full DPS. When I see full DPS, I see it has the maximum DPS that your class can do which is normally direct damage.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Describing you perfectly. Your point?

i am not the guy who wants to force you to play something you dont like.
its the other way around.

Wow, reversed from the truth, it seems.

I want to play my necromancer in dungeons, but the elitist attitude makes that very difficult, for example. What I want is for there to be dungeon paths where 5 zerkers is not the optimal setup. Why? That not only creates openings for different builds, but it also will involve much more interesting mechanics in the dungeon. More decisions to be made and interesting mechanics will make the entire experience much better. Want to play Glass Cannon? You can, just don’t expect to set speed records in there doing it with 4 others that do the same.

For example, having a part of a dungeon path that requires holding a capture point for a certain amount of time would favor team comps other than 5 zerker because the goal isn’t “kill the enemy before it kills you.” You could still do it, sure, but it would be tougher. This is a very simple example of something that could be done to add variety to dungeon paths and make the whole experience more interesting. Another possibility would be saving prisoners, getting better rewards for having more escape. Again, it favors builds that are not zerker, but you can still accomplish it with 5-zerk.

Again, I don’t have an issue with 5-zerk being the optimal choice for a dungeon, the issue is that it’s optimal for every dungeon.

TLDR: I want dungeons where the most optimal route is a mix of builds, not optimized purely for group DPS. This will invlove different enemy mechanics as well as different dungeon mechanics as a whole.

this post then leads to my next two question.

what “elitist attitude” makes it difficult for you to play your necro mancer with your play how i want build?
you can always search and find like-minded individuals. you can always make your own LFG group with your own requirements.
there are even “play how you want” guilds out there and im pretty sure they are still recruiting players.

why should builds that revolve around the highest risk and 100% player skill not be the most optimal choice, given that the player has mastered the game?

NoTrigger.8396:

this post then leads to my next question.

why should builds that revolve around the highest risk and 100% player skill not be the most optimal choice, given that the player has mastered the game?

Because he hasn’t mastered the game. He has mastered the DPS race. There is far more to the game than just that.

Except, you know, in current dungeons.

In response to your edited post, I never once said how I do play my Necromancer. Just for playing Necromancer, I have a hard time getting groups. I do make my own groups when I want to do dungeons simply because it is so difficult to find a group that will accept a Necro at all. I do shift my build around a lot, but even as zerker, a necro has a tough time getting in.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

TLDR: I want dungeons where the most optimal route is a mix of builds, not optimized purely for group DPS. This will invlove different enemy mechanics as well as different dungeon mechanics as a whole.

You’re asking a difficult thing.

Once people complete the dungeon enough to know where everything happens, the only reason to go back that isnt to help someone who hasnt completed it/nostalgia is for the reward. At that point, you are not playing for the entertainment so much as you are playing for the reward, and the less time you can spend churning through repeat content, the better.

Forcing people to do gated content that they’ve already done numerous times is more annoying than you might be aware of, which could easily lead to more “LFZerkletsgetthisoverwith” parties that know what needs to be done to finish that dungeon as fast as possible.

If it bleeds, you can kill it. If you can kill it, hitting it harder means it dies faster.
In a game centered around “Kill this get reward lol”, People that are already experienced arent going to willingly go slower than they need to.

and again, this “killitfast” only works in specific dungeon groups.

Unless, like…your suggestion is making a dungeon nothing but a jumping puzzle. because if it has even -One- thing you need to kill in it…

Or you put in some kind of Spectral Agony that is specifically made to deter zerkers, at which point you’re just making a change to scold the meta for doing what it should be.

aerial.7021:

This is what happens with you kick Aerial (ahem) Monks (erm) the healer class out of the game.

This is what was intended, and you were never the target audience of Anet if this is what you wanted. Anet deliberately designed the game to not need healers.

So either you just deal with the mechanics of the game (which it looks like you are doing), or you move onto something else that’s more in line with your playstyle.

Who knows, eventually they may add healers to the game to appease all of those who want to play one so bad. But they aren’t going to change the mechanics and meta enough to force people to take healers. Your dungeon runs will be even slower with only 4 dps, and 5 zerkers will keep zerking on and reap the benefits of completing more in a lot less time.

Kveldulf.7605:

I for myself hate all those “full zerk with gearcheck” crap that i come across if i want to run a dungeon and none of my guildies are on. On the otherside I love the that it is meta since I can sell those crappy zerk weps for rly nice prices…

That’s ok, we need people to buy the PVT that we loot. Without people who don’t run zerker, I wouldn’t make near as much profit off selling Plague almost daily. That’s an extra 5g profit a day that I wouldn’t make if everyone was zerker :P

Azure The Heartless.3261:

People that are already experienced arent going to willingly go slower than they need to.

I’d just like to chime in and point out that this is not necessarily a true statement. It only holds for experienced loot-centric players, and probably not even all of them.

Meta crowd: the game as designed encourages players to wear increasingly glassier gear as they get more experience. We like this design and we like guild wars 2. We don’t care if people who wear tanky gear don’t like it, because they are free to wear tanky gear anyway and aren’t trying to stop them.

anti-meta crowd: We don’t like the game as designed. we want the game redesigned so that tanky gear is optimally efficient even at high player skill levels. We don’t care if these changes lower the skill cap of the game or invalidate someone else’s playstyle so long as our playstyle becomes optimal.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

TLDR: I want dungeons where the most optimal route is a mix of builds, not optimized purely for group DPS. This will invlove different enemy mechanics as well as different dungeon mechanics as a whole.

You’re asking a difficult thing.

Once people complete the dungeon enough to know where everything happens, the only reason to go back that isnt to help someone who hasnt completed it/nostalgia is for the reward. At that point, you are not playing for the entertainment so much as you are playing for the reward, and the less time you can spend churning through repeat content, the better.

Forcing people to do gated content that they’ve already done numerous times is more annoying than you might be aware of, which could easily lead to more “LFZerkletsgetthisoverwith” parties that know what needs to be done to finish that dungeon as fast as possible.

If it bleeds, you can kill it. If you can kill it, hitting it harder means it dies faster.
In a game centered around “Kill this get reward lol”, People that are already experienced arent going to willingly go slower than they need to.

and again, this “killitfast” only works in specific dungeon groups.

While true, that doesn’t mean the mechanics of said dungeon need to reward 5-zerk over another setup. As I mentioned before, it’s possible to design enemies where even making it a DPS race means it’s optimal to bring in 1 or 2 condition builds, rather than 5-zerk (simply having a lot of Toughness does that).

I get that speedruns always will exist and each path, no matter how the mechanics are, will always have a “speedrun meta”. That doesn’t mean that Zerk gear has to be the most efficient set for everything in every dungeon.