Guild Wars 2

hybrid.5027:

Meta crowd: the game as designed encourages players to wear increasingly glassier gear as they get more experience. We like this design and we like guild wars 2. We don’t care if people who wear tanky gear don’t like it, because they are free to wear tanky gear anyway and aren’t trying to stop them.

anti-meta crowd: We don’t like the game as designed. we want the game redesigned so that tanky gear is optimally efficient even at high player skill levels. We don’t care if these changes lower the skill cap of the game or invalidate someone else’s playstyle so long as our playstyle becomes optimal.

This is a very inaccurate generalization, trying to categorize people as either black or white, when it’s really not that clear cut. There are quite a few shades of grey, that exist even in just this thread alone.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

People that are already experienced arent going to willingly go slower than they need to.

I’d just like to chime in and point out that this is not necessarily a true statement. It only holds for experienced loot-centric players, and probably not even all of them.

True! True. Noted. I kind of mentioned that, but I forgot to specify in that exact statement.

This only applies to people going after the reward. if you’re doing it for nostalgia/cause its fun/ you wanna help someone, any other build works.

This is part of the reason why I said full zerk was boring. Sure you need to be more alert to stay alive, but once you’ve put on a full set you’re pretty much just sayin “I just wanna blow through this for the shiny at the end” and the whole thing at that point is nothing but grindfest.

Now, if you’re one of the Full Zerkers that jumps into open world, without a guild group/party, where the new/inexperienced players are and are focused on burning down things so they rally instead of actively revving them because “that’s the right way to play”, then turns around and calls them ‘filthy casuals’ when the boss wipes them too ‘cause they didnt rally anyone, I’d gladly have an argument with you.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

NoTrigger.8396:

this post then leads to my next question.

why should builds that revolve around the highest risk and 100% player skill not be the most optimal choice, given that the player has mastered the game?

Because he hasn’t mastered the game. He has mastered the DPS race. There is far more to the game than just that.

Except, you know, in current dungeons.

this post then again leads to another two questions.

who tells you that the player hasnt mastered the game? do you know every player of our beautiful community personally?

and have you ever tried to solo lupicus or arah paths in offensive gear without defensive stats? and if yes, is there a dps race? is it “kill it before it can kill you” ?
if no, would you mind to try to do so and tell me about the outcome/how you feel about it when you have done it?

it would be cool if you would take part in this little experiement, optimally with documenting the experiment via video recording programs.
if you need gold to set up your berserker gear feel free to contact me ingame. i will help you to get your gear for this experiement and will provide you buff food as well.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I’d just like to chime in and point out that this is not necessarily a true statement. It only holds for experienced loot-centric players, and probably not even all of them.

id like to say that this is only partly true. players such as myself use full offensive gear because we feel fun when being efficient, we feel its fun when content punishes us as hard as possible when we do a mistake, and we feel its fun to become better players.

Ayrilana.1396:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Ayrilana.1396:

Conncept.7638:

Assume all you like, prejudice is not evidence. I was carried by no one, my build was full DPS, only tanky because full DPS on a condimancer only requires two stats unlike with power, leaving room for a tanky stat whether or not you need it.

Maybe someone can enlighten me on this as I’m very confused.

Since when was full damage per second the same as damage over time?

He claims he’s full DPS when he uses conditions that damage over time. Perhaps I’m missing something?

Those are literally the same thing, all you did was switch second for time, which both have the same units. DPS refers to how much damage you do on average, every second.

This works out to about:
12,000 damage every second for a zerker character
8000 damage every second for a condition character
6000 damage every second for a clerics character

Full DPS just refers to the maximum amount of damage someone can do based on the gear they are wearing, which roughly corresponds to the number above.

Yep and how exactly is condition damage on par with direct damage? Perhaps I should have led with that. I can wear tank gear and claim to be full DPS. When I see full DPS, I see it has the maximum DPS that your class can do which is normally direct damage.

Right now 8000 dps is the most any class can do with a full condition spec, regardless of what gear you are wearing. But you are correct, it is not the maximum amount of dps any class can do.

This is one of the many inherent problems with conditions in this game. They have a hard cap, that scales poorly with gear, and scales abysmally with other players, can’t crit, and is dependent on 2 stats instead of 4 like direct damage. Realistically conditions would need a complete overhaul to ever be even competitive in general play.

NoTrigger.8396:

id like to say that this is only partly true. players such as myself use full offensive gear because we feel fun when being efficient, we feel its fun when content punishes us as hard as possible when we do a mistake, and we feel its fun to become better players.

This is noted too. There are zerkers that feel it’s fun to churn out as much DPS as they can and still stay alive. All power to them. Personally though, I see way too many people down and get mowed on silly bosses for me to just keep hacking at the boss if it isnt close to death, so I traited to keep them alive. at the cost of a fraction of my DPS. (not much, armored attack and bloodlust keeps dps reasonable.)

Bleeding heart, I guess? Idk.

Once you get into the space where these playstyles can coexist (Namely, open world, anywhere that isnt a “letsfinishthisquick” dungeon group, S’all good.

hybrid.5027:

anti-meta crowd: We don’t like the game as designed. we want the game redesigned so that tanky gear is optimally efficient even at high player skill levels. We don’t care if these changes lower the skill cap of the game or invalidate someone else’s playstyle so long as our playstyle becomes optimal.

No where was that stated in the OP, and I apologize if that is what you gathered from the thread.

Please read the following:

I actually like the fact that zerker gear is the meta. I actually like that Guild Wars 2 is popular enough to have a community large enough to actually HAVE a metagame.

The issue is when players that believe everyone should have zerker gear and everyone should focus on damage either attack, invade, or otherwise harass new and casual players.

Three examples:

1. A new player likes a build and posts it on the forums. Zerker elitists try to force that player into playing their build.

2. I make a listing in LFG with “All Welcome!” as the title. Zerker player joins and attempts to kick a non-zerk player.

3. Zerker elitists calling someone out in map chat because they like having a set build more than the meta.

All three of these have happened. THAT is the issue.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

I think there’s a disconnect between different groups of non-zerk and different groups of full zerk.

With that being said:

• The people playing full zerk want to finish the content as fast as possible and know
  what they need to do to not blow up. Not Zerker/ Not Experienced? dont slow them down.

• Zerker has less place in “Open World” PVE/WVW./PVP. All of these modes focus on
  team effort / working with players that may be new to the content.

• Zerker has less place in Half and Full Pug Groups. New/pickup players tend to not know what they are doing and will need a slower pace to complete the dungeon.

There’s no reason to jump right into the “LFZerk” parties if you don’t meet them. 99% of the game is available for you to play geared however you want. They’re just fast tracking it to farm, and time is lost if your dps isn’t contributing as much as it possibly can. There’s need for more tanks in Open world/WVW/PVP where support of a specific individual or groups of individuals are important, and movement patterns cant be memorized.

And thus, sigh.

The eternal argument (other than mounts) thus returns to:

1. Stop shouting, we heard you the first time.
2. Zerk is fine.
3. Everything else is fine.
4. Read LFG descriptions, or
5. Make your own groups.
6. Don’t be a kittening kitten.

If ANet would fix the vote-kick BS, I’d have no problems with #5, so I can, wait for it…

Play how I want.

And thanks, Azure, for following #6.

NoTrigger.8396:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

NoTrigger.8396:

this post then leads to my next question.

why should builds that revolve around the highest risk and 100% player skill not be the most optimal choice, given that the player has mastered the game?

Because he hasn’t mastered the game. He has mastered the DPS race. There is far more to the game than just that.

Except, you know, in current dungeons.

this post then again leads to another two questions.

who tells you that the player hasnt mastered the game? do you know every player of our beautiful community personally?

Let me restate: All that it proves is that he has mastered the DPS race. It’s quite possible he has mastered all aspects of the game, but all that is proven by running zerk in dungeons is that he’s mastered the DPS race.

omg it is sad to read what some people write in this topic .

“I entered only zerker party and they kicked me (cry) i wanted to leach their party casue i like earning fast rewards doing nothing (cry) ban all zerker players ! (cry)”

What if I tell you guys that in Guild Wars it is so easy to get new gear , and reseting traits,skill bar is even easier .ANET MAYBE IT IS TIME FOR BUILD TEMPLATES ?! 2 YEARS,CDI AND STILL NOTHING ?!

Just buy 2/3 armor sets and play how you want , I am not gona run easy dung in pvt armor cause it doesnt make sense ! Full berzerk or die .
I am not gona lead on www in berzerk armor cause it is useless so I switch to pvt gear .
I play content which I dont know aka new LS instance , i take cele/zerk gear to get a bit of survi which will let me to dodge or use some block,blind etc .

Just dont enter zerker,speedrun,gear check lfg and you will be fine .
But the biggest problem are players who want fast rewards but they dont want to play zerker builds . Then yes we see threads like that and people crying about elitism .

The only thing I think Anet has to patch is mob AI , cause come on it is just pathetic when you see 5 elite enemies running to the corner like lambs to the slaughter .
And fix like that doesnt require reballancing entire game just every enemy needs new skill which activates when target is in range but cant direct hit . Some AOE or someting similar to it . Just think players cant pull and stack cause they will get consta aoe on their position , they have to move and fight face to face . It would reduce number of zerkers and make dungs finally harder .

Oh and yes maybe anet will finally release stupid build templates !

InfernoHero.5687:

1. A new player likes a build and posts it on the forums. Zerker elitists try to force that player into playing their build.

2. I make a listing in LFG with “All Welcome!” as the title. Zerker player joins and attempts to kick a non-zerk player.

3. Zerker elitists calling someone out in map chat because they like having a set build more than the meta.

All three of these have happened. THAT is the issue.

This is the specific selection of “elitists” that need to be addressed. That being said, there are people that benefit from the meta.

Chalk these up to toxicity and specify that these players alone are the issue whenever talking about “full zerk only for dungeons” or the “meta”, cause these players are not even the majority in those groups. . Full Zerk Build works in organized group or specific dungeon run only. Other than that it is a matter of personal preference. You cant bomb the meta because some pigheaded jerks think “meta” is synonymous with “omnipotent”. That’s why the PVP section is a mess.

More blame lies with the individuals that perpetuate the above quoted mentalities, than with the people who have decided that, due to their experience with a dungeon or event, there is no need for anything but zerker.

There’s a difference between a knight that doesnt carry a shield because it makes him look cooler and a knight that doesnt carry a shield because he doesnt need one. And no matter how hard or convoluted you make a dungeon, eventually someone will do a perfect run and the meta will surface again for people who only want the shiny.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Azure The Heartless.3261:

People that are already experienced arent going to willingly go slower than they need to.

I’d just like to chime in and point out that this is not necessarily a true statement. It only holds for experienced loot-centric players, and probably not even all of them.

True! True. Noted. I kind of mentioned that, but I forgot to specify in that exact statement.

This only applies to people going after the reward. if you’re doing it for nostalgia/cause its fun/ you wanna help someone, any other build works.

This is part of the reason why I said full zerk was boring. Sure you need to be more alert to stay alive, but once you’ve put on a full set you’re pretty much just sayin “I just wanna blow through this for the shiny at the end” and the whole thing at that point is nothing but grindfest.

Now, if you’re one of the Full Zerkers that jumps into open world, without a guild group/party, where the new/inexperienced players are and are focused on burning down things so they rally instead of actively revving them because “that’s the right way to play”, then turns around and calls them ‘filthy casuals’ when the boss wipes them too ‘cause they didnt rally anyone, I’d gladly have an argument with you.

I think that’s why I don’t typically run full zerk myself (unless I’m in a hurry), because it bores me. Of course I’m also one of those people that really didn’t get any enjoyment out of one shotting things either, but I know there are a lot of people that actually miss that.

Yes, there are some zerk players in the world that really need an attitude adjustment, and I happily argue with them as well.

NoTrigger.8396:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I’d just like to chime in and point out that this is not necessarily a true statement. It only holds for experienced loot-centric players, and probably not even all of them.

id like to say that this is only partly true. players such as myself use full offensive gear because we feel fun when being efficient, we feel its fun when content punishes us as hard as possible when we do a mistake, and we feel its fun to become better players.

And I made an allowance for you and those like you, but calling out there there are exceptions to any rule/generalization (“not even all of them”). However, by your own admission you’e not necessarily being loot centric either. You’re finding enjoyment in increasing your speed and efficiency in getting to the shiny, not in getting the shiny. (Although admitted we all probably like getting the shiny, its just not the be all end all of why we play)

InfernoHero.5687:

The issue is when players that believe everyone should have zerker gear and everyone should focus on damage either attack, invade, or otherwise harass new and casual players.

Three examples:

1. A new player likes a build and posts it on the forums. Zerker elitists try to force that player into playing their build.

2. I make a listing in LFG with “All Welcome!” as the title. Zerker player joins and attempts to kick a non-zerk player.

3. Zerker elitists calling someone out in map chat because they like having a set build more than the meta.

All three of these have happened. THAT is the issue.

I have no doubt that these have happened, but how often do these happen? In the hundreds of dungeon runs I’ve done with pugs, I’ve only seen “zerker elitists” being a problem a couple of times. In fact, the big problem I see is people not reading lfg descriptions and joining groups they are not suited for. While more often than not my “px 80s exp” lfg will give a good group, there have been many times when people who joined are not level 80 or not experienced. I even tried just spelling out “experienced” just in case people thought I meant “explorable” and I still get people who don’t know what they’re doing (and I suspect they are looking to get carried).

On the forums, I would say the PHIW people tend to be more toxic than the so called zerker elitists.

Azure The Heartless.3261:

InfernoHero.5687:

1. A new player likes a build and posts it on the forums. Zerker elitists try to force that player into playing their build.

2. I make a listing in LFG with “All Welcome!” as the title. Zerker player joins and attempts to kick a non-zerk player.

3. Zerker elitists calling someone out in map chat because they like having a set build more than the meta.

All three of these have happened. THAT is the issue.

This is the specific selection of “elitists” that need to be addressed. That being said, there are people that benefit from the meta.

Chalk these up to toxicity and specify that these players alone are the issue whenever talking about “full zerk only for dungeons” or the “meta”, cause these players are not even the majority in those groups. . Full Zerk Build works in organized group or specific dungeon run only. Other than that it is a matter of personal preference. You cant bomb the meta because some pigheaded jerks think “meta” is synonymous with “omnipotent”. That’s why the PVP section is a mess.

I fully agree. This thread was created in order to address the few individuals that go into build threads and attempt to tell the OP that he/she is wrong/horribad/needs to be zerkers.

Normally, when a player posts a build that is far from the meta, he/she is asking for improvements to a build that they find fun. When someone comes and attempts to force the meta, that player then sees a very bad part of this otherwise awesome community.

InfernoHero.5687:

The issue is when players that believe everyone should have zerker gear and everyone should focus on damage either attack, invade, or otherwise harass new and casual players.

i agree with you. but this issue has nothing to do with the game. this issue has something to do with anti social behavior. the same stupid behavior however, can be found in this thread from some anti berserker elitists.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Let me restate: All that it proves is that he has mastered the DPS race. It’s quite possible he has mastered all aspects of the game, but all that is proven by running zerk in dungeons is that he’s mastered the DPS race.

let me re-ask:

have you ever tried to solo lupicus or arah paths in offensive gear without defensive stats? and if yes, is there a dps race? is it “kill it before it can kill you” ?
if no, would you mind to try to do so and tell me about the outcome/how you feel about it when you have done it?

it would be cool if you would take part in this little experiement, optimally with documenting the experiment via video recording programs.
if you cant record videos, you can tell me what server you are on. i can come to NA if you are playing on NA and record it for you.
if you need gold to set up your berserker gear feel free to contact me ingame. i will help you to get your gear for this experiement and will provide you buff food as well.

Since GW2 is skill based, there will always be a group who consider them skill enough to run the content with all Berserker gear. It’s best to keep it where the Average Joe can run Berserker and the only thing holding him back is personal choice.

Let’s say A. Joe wants to run Citadel of Flame. Joe opens up his LFG and looks around seeing a bunch of “Berserker Only” LFGs. He asks why and is told that this is the fastest way of getting rewards. He decides to save up his gold and get Berserker gear, runs dungeons in all berserker, and gets his rewards. He accomplishes this and is now a “zerker elitist” earning his rewards.

Now, let’s say A. Joe wants to run Citadel of Flame after ANet makes some major changes to the system. He opens up his LFG and looks around seeing a bunch of “Berserker Only” LFGs. He asks why and is told that this is the fastest way of getting rewards. He decides to save up his gold and get Berserker gear, and once he’s acquired it runs CoF. Unfortunately, every time he goes to fight an enemy he gets killed, and after this happens a bunch, his group gets sick of carrying him and kicks him. He can’t meet the skill requirement to run a full berserker and has now wasted his time and gold.

It really comes down to this: Do you want to be locked out of someone else’s group because you disagree with their play-style, or because you can’t play as well as you need to? Either way, there will be berserker only groups.

NoTrigger.8396:

InfernoHero.5687:

The issue is when players that believe everyone should have zerker gear and everyone should focus on damage either attack, invade, or otherwise harass new and casual players.

i agree with you. but this issue has nothing to do with the game. this issue has something to do with anti social behavior. the same stupid behavior however, can be found in this thread from some anti berserker elitists.

I fully agree. The problem with this portion of the community is that for some reason, zerker elitist and anti-meta elitists believe that everyone should play the way they do. This thread was made to attempt to voice the opinion that everyone should be free to play how they want.

I should be able to use my AH guardian in full soldier’s gear without hearing that I should be in zerkers gear and that AH is a selfish trait.

Speed Runners should be able to form their own groups without trouble or harassment.

I actually have a zerker necromancer, and I’m probably going to make my Elementalist have a zerker build while I farm for celestial gear.

Morsus.5106:

Since GW2 is skill based, there will always be a group who consider them skill enough to run the content with all Berserker gear. It’s best to keep it where the Average Joe can run Berserker and the only thing holding him back is personal choice.

Let’s say A. Joe wants to run Citadel of Flame. Joe opens up his LFG and looks around seeing a bunch of “Berserker Only” LFGs. He asks why and is told that this is the fastest way of getting rewards. He decides to save up his gold and get Berserker gear, runs dungeons in all berserker, and gets his rewards. He accomplishes this and is now a “zerker elitist” earning his rewards.

Now, let’s say A. Joe wants to run Citadel of Flame after ANet makes some major changes to the system. He opens up his LFG and looks around seeing a bunch of “Berserker Only” LFGs. He asks why and is told that this is the fastest way of getting rewards. He decides to save up his gold and get Berserker gear, and once he’s acquired it runs CoF. Unfortunately, every time he goes to fight an enemy he gets killed, and after this happens a bunch, his group gets sick of carrying him and kicks him. He can’t meet the skill requirement to run a full berserker and has now wasted his time and gold.

It really comes down to this: Do you want to be locked out of someone else’s group because you disagree with their play-style, or because you can’t play as well as you need to? Either way, there will be berserker only groups.

This. As blunt as it is, and as I said before, no matter how hard you make the dungeon, eventually someone will do a perfect run, and the meta will resurface as “lets perfect run this as fast as possible.”

You can pick your poison. Either have your choice keep you out of a fraction of the Zerker only groups, or have your skill level do so.

You can always make your own group and do w/e you want though.

None of this will get rid of the ‘elitists’, mind you, no matter who you decide to define them ‘as’. Individual skill and personality is what makes them “elitist” not the game balance, and you cannot tailor the game to shoehorn them into accepting a slower run or being nice, depending on which flavor of “elitist” you are addressing.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Right now 8000 dps is the most any class can do with a full condition spec, regardless of what gear you are wearing. But you are correct, it is not the maximum amount of dps any class can do.

Right now a Sinister s/s+longbow warrior with Runes of the Aristocrat and proper sigils will make about 10.5k dps in an organized group with max buffs. Solo this warrior can produce about 8.5k.

For reference, a meta berserker warrior makes about 12k in an organized group and 7.5k solo.

NoTrigger.8396:

InfernoHero.5687:

The issue is when players that believe everyone should have zerker gear and everyone should focus on damage either attack, invade, or otherwise harass new and casual players.

i agree with you. but this issue has nothing to do with the game. this issue has something to do with anti social behavior. the same stupid behavior however, can be found in this thread from some anti berserker elitists.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Let me restate: All that it proves is that he has mastered the DPS race. It’s quite possible he has mastered all aspects of the game, but all that is proven by running zerk in dungeons is that he’s mastered the DPS race.

let me re-ask:

have you ever tried to solo lupicus or arah paths in offensive gear without defensive stats? and if yes, is there a dps race? is it “kill it before it can kill you” ?
if no, would you mind to try to do so and tell me about the outcome/how you feel about it when you have done it?

Technically speaking, any time you have to kill something, it’s a “kill it before it kills you” DPS race. Even when playing conditions, I think I’ve gotten maybe 5 kills after death out of several tens of thousands of mob kills. I suppose I should have put my definition of “DPS race” as “dealing enough damage to defeat your opponent before your active defense runs out”

Have I soloed an Arah path? No. That does take a level of skill I don’t posses. A very small percentage of people have actually accomplished it. Speedruns are always easier than soling a dungeon, however. Roughly 6-7 times the damage output of a single person plus at least 5 times the skill cooldowns tends to do that.

However, if you have a free recording program you like to use, could you send me a PM regarding it? I’m trying to get set up for recording/streaming myself.

Varrg.2704:

I remember ANet sayin’g we’ll be able to play however we want and we’ll be equal in whatever spec we want. Turns out GW2 is no different from any other MMO with holy trinity, there’s alway just one viable build per class. Atleast for PvE. How sad.

Source? Link it, now.

I wish some of you would actually read what you post. Because you do not make any sense. Theres so many contradictions and inability to understand each others arguements that this thread has turned into a hilarious cesspool. Carry on.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Seriously… this is just common sense. You sacrifice all your survival stats for damage stats so you can kill bosses faster. That is literally the point of zerker gear. Of course it is the most efficient.

Like I said, it doesn’t have to be. If there are other ways to convert survivability for damage, then it still can be a fair trade. A zerker for instance couldn’t do that same trade because he has sacrificed too much of his own survivability because off his gear.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

If I could kill a boss faster using defensive gear while also taking less damage from the bosses… then why would anyone wear anything other than that?

Who said that the new method has to be safer? In fact it could even be more dangerous. After all, it’s just a matter of risk and reward.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

“Stand in the corner and spam 1 until the boss is dead. Usually 5-10 seconds”

Oh so riveting. So fun. So exiting. yawn Not. I just don’t understand this mentality.

Oh sure, I can see how getting through super fast the first couple of times through might be fun and exciting. But after that to do it every time… it just become repetitive work. Stack here, set auto attack going, wait. Run here. Stack there, start auto attack, dodge, attack some more, wait. No wonder you people watch tv to keep yourselves entertained when you’re on the game. You may as well be botting, cause you sure as hell aren’t playing.

Let’s repeat your post with some words changed

“Run around and spam all your skills, make the mobs follow you so they don’t stay in any of the paty’s AOE, especially cc like fear to make the boss run out of AOE/100b and the like. You fight will last a long time”

Oh so riveting. So fun. So exiting. yawn Not. I just don’t understand this mentality.

Oh sure, I can see how getting through super slow the first couple of times through might be fun and exciting. But after that to do it every time… it just become repetitive work. Run around like insane rabbits, spam ALL your skills, wait. Run here. Spread out so the combat takes longer, long enough to spam all your skills, dont dodge, dont attack some more, wait. No wonder you people watch tv to keep yourselves entertained when you’re on the game. You may as well be botting, cause you sure as hell aren’t playing.

Why would you want to play AC P1 “slowly” if you’ve already done it 1000 times before?

Thats the point.

Nick.6972:

Yeah, as many have pointed it out in this thread – How is killing a boring HP sponge for 5 minutes better than 1 minute?

I mean, you run a party of 5 Mace Cleric Guardians with condition damage traits, you’re fighting boss “X”, it takes you 10 minutes to kill it.
Vs
Full Zerk Mesmer, Elementalist, 2x Warrior Guardian.

Slow= Better? How? Please explain.

I’ll have to explain this first:

I play a guardian and warrior most times. Both share the status of my main.

Both of those characters are in full soldier’s gear while the Warrior has Dolyak runes and the Guardian has Troopers.

Why my Guardian is fun for me:

I love charging in and smacking a big mob with my hammer and having my symboles heal my party members. It does take long due to my setup, but I love knowing that I’m helping to keep my party members alive through my heals. Thanks to my soldier’s gear, I don’t have to worry about my health as much, and if it ever does get low I have many ways to heal myself through skills and traits.

I like staying alive and having my party look to me for a res. That’s fun.

Why my Warrior is fun for me:

I use healing banners and normally Axe/Shield. With regen coming from my banner, I get to help my party out through healing and the buff that the banner gives me. I can also pick up my party and turn a possible wipe around simply because of the elite banner.

Thanks to my soldier’s gear, I’ll often do some really awesome things.

In my most recent dungeon run about an hour ago, I was running through Honor of the Waves when we were fighting the troll boss. I asked my party: “You guys care if I do something stupid?” They responded with mixed answers, mostly asking what it was until someone said “He’s probably going to jump down and melee troll. Let him. Could be fun.”

So, while the troll still had most of his HP left, I jumped down and fought for my life while the rest of my party ranged him. With the help of my banner, and the guardian using Wall of Reflection to keep the really bad stuff off of me, I was able to live AND I kept agro off of the rest of my group some how.

Doing stupid stuff and actually pulling it off is fun for me.

As far as I’m concerned, speed clears actually make game more interesting – adds replay value to dungeons which have gotten repetitive and boring. Attempting to set a new “world record” or seeing/testing how fast you can beat the dungeon is quite fun.

Nick.6972:

As far as I’m concerned, speed clears actually make game more interesting – adds replay value to dungeons which have gotten repetitive and boring. Attempting to set a new “world record” or seeing/testing how fast you can beat the dungeon is quite fun.

MMOs are games with infinite replay value.

Look at it this way: World of Warcraft is currently the most subbed MMO. (This statistic does not include non-sub based MMOs obviously.)

Why is that? Why do people play such an old game?

One answer: Community. MMOs gain huge replayability due to the human factor.

I’ve run through dungeons countless times, but I still use soldier’s gear with healing banners because I have more fun with the people that don’t speed run. We communicate, joke around, and do stupid stuff to make it fun. Things like Meleeing the final boss of HotW Part 1, and watching one guy take on two bosses at once is fun as hell for us.

InfernoHero.5687:

I’ve run through dungeons countless times, but I still use soldier’s gear with healing banners because I have more fun with the people that don’t speed run. We communicate, joke around, and do stupid stuff to make it fun.

So where’s the problem?
Please elaborate. I don’t see it.

Nick.6972:

InfernoHero.5687:

Nick.6972:

Yeah, as many have pointed it out in this thread – How is killing a boring HP sponge for 5 minutes better than 1 minute?

I mean, you run a party of 5 Mace Cleric Guardians with condition damage traits, you’re fighting boss “X”, it takes you 10 minutes to kill it.
Vs
Full Zerk Mesmer, Elementalist, 2x Warrior Guardian.

Slow= Better? How? Please explain.

I’ll have to explain this first:

I play a guardian and warrior most times. Both share the status of my main.

Both of those characters are in full soldier’s gear while the Warrior has Dolyak runes and the Guardian has Troopers.

Why my Guardian is fun for me:

I love charging in and smacking a big mob with my hammer and having my symboles heal my party members. It does take long due to my setup, but I love knowing that I’m helping to keep my party members alive through my heals. Thanks to my soldier’s gear, I don’t have to worry about my health as much, and if it ever does get low I have many ways to heal myself through skills and traits.

I like staying alive and having my party look to me for a res. That’s fun.

Why my Warrior is fun for me:

I use healing banners and normally Axe/Shield. With regen coming from my banner, I get to help my party out through healing and the buff that the banner gives me. I can also pick up my party and turn a possible wipe around simply because of the elite banner.

Thanks to my soldier’s gear, I’ll often do some really awesome things.

In my most recent dungeon run about an hour ago, I was running through Honor of the Waves when we were fighting the troll boss. I asked my party: “You guys care if I do something stupid?” They responded with mixed answers, mostly asking what it was until someone said “He’s probably going to jump down and melee troll. Let him. Could be fun.”

So, while the troll still had most of his HP left, I jumped down and fought for my life while the rest of my party ranged him. With the help of my banner, and the guardian using Wall of Reflection to keep the really bad stuff off of me, I was able to live AND I kept agro off of the rest of my group some how.

Doing stupid stuff and actually pulling it off is fun for me.

So? Where’s the problem? You’re enjoying your set up, right? There’s literally almost nothing in this game (PvE), no content, that forces you to change your armor or traits.
You’re enjoying it? That’s perfectly fine.

Are those people who have different deffintion of fun forcing you to change your build? Forcing.
What stops you from creating your own LFG?

No one can force me to change my setup. Absolutely no one has that power.

My problem (And why I made this thread) is those that would think I should and must change my build. Those that call me “Selfish” for using Altruistic Healing, those that join my “All Welcome” LFG listing and attempt to kick people for not using Zerkers, and those that think Zerkers is the only true way to play the game ARE a real issue and have the potential to push new players away from the game.

If you personally like speed running and find that fun, go for it. I’m happy that the game has the opportunity to be fun for you and me at the same time. However, there are some issues the Meta has caused. We need to address those.

how is meleeing the troll in hotw “something stupid” ?

there are people who melee solo the troll… and guess what? in berserker gear.
guess why? because they are good enough.

and tbh i dont see how a “meta” can cause issues.
the only issue is in peoples heads and they created those issues themselves, because they refuse to understand the game for whatever reason.

everyone can play how they want. there is no issue to be fixed.

NoTrigger.8396:

how is meleeing the troll in hotw “something stupid” ?

there are people who melee solo the troll… and guess what? in berserker gear.
guess why? because they are good enough

But I have fun with my build and my gear. Why do you have a problem with that?

I don’t care if others can do it “Better” than me. I can show off and do things like that in non-zerk groups and actually have people freak out and think it’s awesome.

With zerk groups I’d never have that feeling.

Nick.6972:

InfernoHero.5687:

LFG listing and attempt to kick people for not using Zerkers, and those that think Zerkers is the only true way to play the game ARE a real issue and have the potential to push new players away from the game.

So. Basically you think it’s unfair that people get kicked from the party for not reading the LFG?
That’s ridiculous.

those that join my “All Welcome” LFG listing and attempt to kick people for not using Zerkers

That’s my actual quote. You cut off the important part.

You’re talking “I”, “Me” and “I”. Stop being selfish.
Grow thicker skin. There are bad apples on both sides, believe it or not.

I’ve seen role players mass spamming map chat with annoying and perverted Qaggan messages, should I start generalizing role players as being obnoxious and toxic individuals? No.

I can’t believe people actually argue over different gears in the game. In dungeons, zerker gears are best, but in WvW, soldier is far better, and in spvp, celestial. And some people have mix gears that suit their build and play style. And in Open World events, it nice and helps a lot when players run healer builds.

They whole point of GW2 is that all builds are going to be viable in a sense that you can complete your mission with them. The only difference is the rate at which you can achieve it. A gear that reduce your defense for the sake of offense should reward you with faster time. That’s the whole point. Why would you hate others for choosing that route? Why would it bother you that others prefer playing with players of similar mindset? I personally don’t run with zerker only groups not because of their gear choice but because I don’t like players who are that picky, they tend to have elitist attitudes. I play with any type of players who is willing to have a fun time. And I have no problem finding a group of such players.

There are also many players that join zerker runs when they don’t meet the requirements. It happens both ways. The main difference here is that zerker players don’t feel the necessity to make stupid threads about it.

If a zerker player joins your party and tries to impose his playstyle on you, kick him just like he would do if you had join his party and move on.

The problem is not the meta. Its people attitudes and other peoples inability to look past simple LFG requirements without taking offense.

InfernoHero.5687:

But I have fun with my build and my gear. Why do you have a problem with that?

i never said i have a problem with that. im glad you are enjoying the game.
the only problem i have are people who want to destroy my playstyle because they dont understand the game and insist that their play how you want builds become meta. thats all.

again, why do people want to ruin my playstyle when i dont want to ruin theirs? i couldnt care less if someone runs pvt gear. i dont care about what other people do as long as it doesnt harm me.

thats why i dont understand why some people care so much about my playstyle being ruined.

and non-zerker who join zerker only lfgs and get kicked deserve the kick.
when people are too stupid to read lfg descriptions its their problem.
lfg descriptions are there for a reason.

InfernoHero.5687:

LFG listing and attempt to kick people for not using Zerkers, and those that think Zerkers is the only true way to play the game ARE a real issue and have the potential to push new players away from the game.

thats not a problem of gear, stats, the game.
its not arenanets job to change how some people act or what some people think.
and its not arenanets job to change the game because life is hard.

NoTrigger.8396:

thats not a problem of gear, stats, the game.
its not arenanets job to change how some people act or what some people think.
and its not arenanets job to change the game because life is hard.

When the way people act border on the line of harassment, I’m pretty sure it starts to go against the ToS.

Everytime I see someone asking something like “What’s a really fun build for Guardian/Warrior/A class I know a bit about for PvE?”

I’ll normally answer with an AH build or a Healing Banner build, or a lifesteal build, or a celestial Elementalist build.

EVERY time I do, I get called out and someone says that I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Those people then suggest the Meta builds.

InfernoHero.5687:

Nick.6972:

Yeah, as many have pointed it out in this thread – How is killing a boring HP sponge for 5 minutes better than 1 minute?

I mean, you run a party of 5 Mace Cleric Guardians with condition damage traits, you’re fighting boss “X”, it takes you 10 minutes to kill it.
Vs
Full Zerk Mesmer, Elementalist, 2x Warrior Guardian.

Slow= Better? How? Please explain.

I’ll have to explain this first:

I play a guardian and warrior most times. Both share the status of my main.

Both of those characters are in full soldier’s gear while the Warrior has Dolyak runes and the Guardian has Troopers.

Why my Guardian is fun for me:

I love charging in and smacking a big mob with my hammer and having my symboles heal my party members. It does take long due to my setup, but I love knowing that I’m helping to keep my party members alive through my heals. Thanks to my soldier’s gear, I don’t have to worry about my health as much, and if it ever does get low I have many ways to heal myself through skills and traits.

I like staying alive and having my party look to me for a res. That’s fun.

Why my Warrior is fun for me:

I use healing banners and normally Axe/Shield. With regen coming from my banner, I get to help my party out through healing and the buff that the banner gives me. I can also pick up my party and turn a possible wipe around simply because of the elite banner.

Thanks to my soldier’s gear, I’ll often do some really awesome things.

In my most recent dungeon run about an hour ago, I was running through Honor of the Waves when we were fighting the troll boss. I asked my party: “You guys care if I do something stupid?” They responded with mixed answers, mostly asking what it was until someone said “He’s probably going to jump down and melee troll. Let him. Could be fun.”

So, while the troll still had most of his HP left, I jumped down and fought for my life while the rest of my party ranged him. With the help of my banner, and the guardian using Wall of Reflection to keep the really bad stuff off of me, I was able to live AND I kept agro off of the rest of my group some how.

Doing stupid stuff and actually pulling it off is fun for me.

But melee-ing the troll isn’t actually “stupid stuff”, it’s actually faster to melee him and can be fully done without downing(and even solo) on meta/glassy builds. Of course you can adjust your build to give you more dodges or have people organize interrupts to stop his stomps too for a more active game play.

Not everyone need soldiers gear to do this “awesome thing” and most who choose not to probably finds it a lot more boring to engage enemies with next to no risk involved or play passively.

As for your opening post, yea, its a no brainer that you can do whatever you want in this or any other game.

Only important thing is that you mustn’t forget to always respect other people’s preferences/play style when they communicate it clearly in the LFG description or party chat when you join if you want your playing experience to be smooth.

InfernoHero.5687:

NoTrigger.8396:

thats not a problem of gear, stats, the game.
its not arenanets job to change how some people act or what some people think.
and its not arenanets job to change the game because life is hard.

When the way people act border on the line of harassment, I’m pretty sure it starts to go against the ToS.

Everytime I se someone asking something like “What’s a really fun build for Guardian/Warrior/A class I know a bit about for PvE?”

I’ll normally answer with an AH build or a Healing Banner build, or a lifesteal build, or a celestial Elementalist build.

EVERY time I do, I get called out and someone says that I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Those people then suggest the Meta builds.

i suggest a meta build called “growing thicker skin”. this meta build works like full nomands guardian, you dont take any damage. but this build is more of a mental thing.
this is the internet. and this is a MMO. when you meet other people and have to deal with them you need thick skin. because not everyone shares your desire, your opinion, your way of thinking, your whishes.
why does it even bother you if someone tells you you dont know what you are talking about? maybe he is right, maybe he is wrong. who cares.

the issue you are talking about that needs to be addressed is only in your head (im not trying to be rude so dont get me wrong)
and if someone is really insultig you, report him or simply /ignore. probem solved.

Izaya.2906:

As for your opening post, yea, its a no brainer that you can do whatever you want in this or any other game.

Only important thing is that you mustn’t forget to always respect other people’s preferences/play style when they communicate it clearly in the LFG description or party chat when you join if you want your playing experience to be smooth.

This. All of this.

You are awesome.

NoTrigger.8396:

InfernoHero.5687:

NoTrigger.8396:

thats not a problem of gear, stats, the game.
its not arenanets job to change how some people act or what some people think.
and its not arenanets job to change the game because life is hard.

When the way people act border on the line of harassment, I’m pretty sure it starts to go against the ToS.

Everytime I se someone asking something like “What’s a really fun build for Guardian/Warrior/A class I know a bit about for PvE?”

I’ll normally answer with an AH build or a Healing Banner build, or a lifesteal build, or a celestial Elementalist build.

EVERY time I do, I get called out and someone says that I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Those people then suggest the Meta builds.

i suggest a meta build called “growing thicker skin”. this is the internet. and this is a MMO. when you meet other people and have to deal with them you need thick skin. because not everyone shares your desire, your opinion, your way of thinking, your whishes.
why does it even bother you if someone tells you you dont know what you are talking about? maybe he is right, maybe he is wrong. who cares.

the issue you are talking about that needs to be addressed is only in your head (im not trying to be rude so dont get me wrong)
and if someone is really insultig you, report him or simply /ignore. probem solved.

The problem is only bad when people think that someone asking for a “Fun” build means they instantly want to speedrun/DPS/have the metabuild.

I have some pretty thick skin, but what I’m worried about is new players losing interest in the game due to the zerker meta pushing them away.

Celestial Elementalist is fun. Flamethrower engi in soldier’s gear is fun. AH Guardian with healing hammer symbols is fun.

A new player looking at the meta builds and asking for fun builds in Map chat might not get those suggested to them. They may be forced into thinking that the meta builds are the most fun the game has to offer.

You’re speculating and giving your own opinion based on no real evidence or proven facts.

I could easily flip that statement saying new players easily get frustrated by the sheer complexity of this game and the massive pool of build variety which makes them overwhelmed and ultimately leads to quitting.

Nick.6972:

You’re speculating and giving your own opinion based on no real evidence or proven facts.

I could easily flip that statement saying new players easily get frustrated by the sheer complexity of this game and the massive pool of build variety which makes them overwhelmed and ultimately leads to quitting.

I’ve seen this happen in many places. This includes MMO discussion forums, Guild Wars 2 forums, and the Guild Wars 2 subreddit.

It is a real issue. People mostly suggest the Meta builds and will often reject any other idea.

InfernoHero.5687:

Flamethrower engi in soldier’s gear is fun

I do not believe that many people would agree with that opinion.

Nick.6972:

So. Alright, lets assume you’re correct, just for a second, what are you suggesting?

When someone posts a build that isn’t the meta, ask them if they are building for efficiency or if they have found something about their class that they are trying to build for.

For example: If someone posts a necromancer build with something like 0/0/6/6/2 and they really want to focus on life steal, maybe a good suggestion for them would be to switch to zerker gear and use a 6/0/0/6/2 build. This will allow them to lifesteal on crit. That could be fun for them.

hybrid.5027:

InfernoHero.5687:

Flamethrower engi in soldier’s gear is fun

I do not believe that many people would agree with that opinion.

I actually do – the most badkitten engi I know runs soldier’s gear – In wvw though.

if a new player asks for builds, you can tell him about a meta build, you can tell him about your 2-2-2-2-2 torch offhand only guardian, you can tell him he doesnt need any armor. he will try all of the builds. it doesnt drive him away.

InfernoHero.5687:

They may be forced into thinking that the meta builds are the most fun the game has to offer.

maybe this new player will try all of your builds and thinks celestial ele is boring, maybe flamethrower engi in soldier gear is boring, maybe AH guardian is boring.
and maybe that meta build that someone else suggested will be the build that is the most fun for him. who knows?

or maybe this new player will be forced into thinking that your builds are the only fun builds the game has to offer.

whats fun for someone is not decided by what you feel is fun.

again, the issue you are talking about is non existent.

NoTrigger.8396:

if a new player asks for builds, you can tell him about a meta build, you can tell him about your 2-2-2-2-2 torch offhand only guardian, you can tell him he doesnt need any armor. he will try all of the builds. it doesnt drive him away.

InfernoHero.5687:

They may be forced into thinking that the meta builds are the most fun the game has to offer.

maybe this new player will try all of your builds and thinks celestial ele is boring, maybe flamethrower engi in soldier gear is boring, maybe AH guardian is boring.
and maybe that meta build that someone else suggested will be the build that is the most fun for him. who knows?

or maybe this new player will be forced into thinking that your builds are the only fun builds the game has to offer.

whats fun for someone is not decided by what you feel is fun.

again, the issue you are talking about is non existent.

I am fine with everyone doing whatever they like doing. As long as they are enjoying the game, I am perfectly happy.

My issue is when the meta build or ANY build is pushed onto someone.