Guild Wars 2

I believe one of the major reason for players choosing to play GW2 is attracted by Anet’s manifesto claiming that grinding is not fun and GW2 is a game that designed for fun. However, with more and more experience in game after 3 months, I got a feeling that this game actually requires lots of grind in their end game content. The fact is GW2 has not much differences compared other MMOs in terms of the way Anet try to keep their players playing the game. I will explain the grind that required first.

1. Grind for crafting
High end weapons (both exotic and Legendary) require huge amount of high tier materials such as Glob of Ectoplasm (ecto), lodestone, Tier 6 materials (T6 mats), etc. In order to craft these items, players either need to grind for the drop or grind for coins to buy the mats from Trading Post (TP). Tens to hundreds of hours (depends on the weapon) are minimum for obtaining these skins which is hard for most players. The major cause is due to either the receipt requiring huge amount or extremely low drop rate actually caused all these grinding. For example, 250 ecto is usually included in most receipts. Also Lodestone only drop once or twice if the player is lucky after grinding in certain areas for an hour or more. From my personal experience, I still not yet obtained a single Molten Lodestone from Fire Elementals or CoF even I have at least 20+ runs of it. In terms of legendary weapons, we already know the harsh requirement for crafting by reading the articles from those who obtained legendary weapons. On top of coins and mats, crafting legendary weapons also require huge amount of Karma for exchange certain materials. I believe most of the players either having a super long plan or actually gave up from obtaining legendary weapons. For me, the way to obtain those legendary weapons should be legendary (High difficulty quest? Achievements?) but not grindy.

2. Grind for tokens
Another type of grind is for tokens which given as reward after finishing dungeons. Tokens are used to exchange for unique dungeon gears. Each set of dungeon armor require around 1100 – 1400 depends on the dungeon set (my CoF set require 1380 tokens). For me, a full set means at least 23 success dungeon runs. The grinding required for dungeon runs is easier than grind for crafting but its still grinding and not really fun after running it for 20 times.

The new dungeon, Fractals of the Mists, provided more random elements but I think the way required to get to higher level is a combination of grind and regular work. From what I saw in the map chat, many players already reached lv10+, lv20+ or even lv30+ of the dungeon. For those who don’t have time to grind the dungeon since the last patch, they are now facing difficulty in finding a low level dungeon group in doing this dungeon. Further more, the nature of character bound progress of this dungeon forced players to focus on one character or need to grind from the beginning if they want to use other character to obtain ascend gear.

3. Grind for exploration
This problem actually not obvious if you are playing the first or second character because most of the content still can provide you with a fresh feeling. However, doing it for every alts cause this to become an extremely boring grind after players explored the map a few time to unlock those Point of Interest (PoI), Vista, and Skill Point. Also, even dynamic event gets bored after it repeated for lots of times.

To be honest, I don’t think this can be solved because even Anet can change the dynamic event within a zone, player still required to unlock those PoI, Vista, and Skill Point when they start a alt which ended up as a grinding pattern.

Grind or Fun?
In my opinion, this topic is for those who reached lv80 and experienced most of the content. Although Anet claimed the whole game content is designed as endgame, I believe many of us are participating in at least one of the above listed grinding. Before the release of GW2 Anet promised not to develop a game that use grinding but fun to keep players. However I think this game actually can be listed as one of the MMO that require the most amount of grind for end game content. Furthermore, Anet constantly nerf farming location either by increasing the time for an event to start or decrease the drop rate. This only cause the grinding become even longer which I believe harms both the game and players. Recently, I saw a trend in reduction in active players. My guild got a 50% drop in active player for the last month. I am worrying about the future of the game if this is what Anet is aimed to do and unfortunately the trends looks like more grind is needed after introducing Fractals of the Mists.

I would like to know what other players think of this situation. Do you agree or not worrying about it at all?

I don’t see what you get so worked about if you wanna grind, well grind. Anet said the game will be fun without grind and it is, no one forces you to do it. For me its simple I bought the game, i played it, enjoyed it and when I pass it ill go buy another game and play that one, what you people expect to buy a game and then play it forever or something?

I completely agree.

I too was sold on the no grind aspect of the pre-release marketing speals. I remember all those catch phrases that seem so long ago now… “we at ANet don’t think grind equals fun” etc etc…

What’s the end result? One of the grindiest MMOs I’ve ever played. Peoples definition of grind may differ to mine and that’s fine. I’d say ANet’s definition is something completed different as they thought the mats needed to craft ascended gear was minimal… Ha!

I was quite content with the game pre Lost Shores. It wasn’t some revolutionary step for MMOs like they claimed, but it didn’t have a gear treadmill and that was enough for me. There was grind, but it wasn’t for better stats, which I could deal with. With the Lost Shores patch, it seems Anet’s philosophy has changed.

Grind is now where it’s at. I guess they figure it’s the best way to milk there customers and get them spending at the cash shop. shrugs

Grind is partly subjective, and Anet saying “Grind isn’t fun” is sort of a false statement.

Some things may be “grindy” as fact, but if people actually are having fun during it then it’s not really considered a grind, atleast not IMO. If said grind is boring, tedious, gets old too fast then it is your classic full-blown “Ugh, Grind”.

As for having carrots that take a long time to gain or grind for, those are always good to have, assuming they’re optional. It’s always, always good to have SOMETHING you could work for if you wanted to. If you literally attained everything you had desire for immediately, or in a week, what would be the point of money, or materials, or the rewards for ANYTHING in the game?

As long as you already have a decent array of options w/o much grind then those optional long grinds are great.

If this is a case of “Oh this skin and that skin are the only ones I actually like and would want, but will take forever to get, so meh screw it” well that’s unfortunate and I can feel your pain, but IMO that’s a problem with a lack of options.

What Anet was going for was : you have options for gear/skins/etc right off the bat, then you have different and more desirable skins that take longer to achieve at various levels of effort/time. But the point is to enjoy whatever it is you want to do in game which rewards you with the stuff you need to achieve said longer cosmetic goals.

Fractal with ascended gear (which isn’t just a cosmetic thing, but STILL optional) being only available in Fractals, that was a mistake and they already admitted that. The goal would be the same here as well, do w/e you want to do in order to eventually acquire your Ascended pieces, dungeons, WvW, Events, Crafting, etc.

This leads back to what I said at the start of my post, getting a Legendary may be a grind, but assuming you’re actually having fun playing various parts of the game which all get you closer and closer to said Legendary, then it shouldn’t be considered a “grind”, although it’s technically grindy.

NOW, of course you could argue the game just isn’t fun enough to last that long in order to acquire your longer rewards, that’s debatable and subjective although I wouldn’t disagree, but that’s a different topic.

OnlyFate.8549:

For me, the way to obtain those legendary weapons should be legendary (High difficulty quest? Achievements?) but not grindy.

Of course I definately agree with you here. =p

I’m never really impressed when I see someone with a Legendary, they either had help or just farmed/played the TP alot.

And the game doesn’t have enough “I’m skilled and showing it off” sort of things really.

See the major thing that makes these in to a grind is ppl unwillingness to wait they must have it now. The system as is you can run these events once a day for max pay out but for though who want things a lot faster then you run the same things over and over on the same day. They even took away effectiveness from (speed) grinding when ppl where running just the first part of dungeons because ppl where both exploiting such things AND complaining about grinding.

Fractals are a great example of anty grind build in and how you can make Fractals in a grind fest. Its the daily i my self got to level 20 so i run just 2 runs a day some times 3 if i feel like running a random level 2 but all i need to do is run a 10 and 20 per day or just one if i realty waned to because i do not need to have every item from fractal today nor do i need them next week.

That is the truth of it if you MUST have things now your going to work for it and it will be very grind only but if you can delayed gratification it become less of a grind and more about fun.

seriosly i dont umderstand u guys how u gona make new items just get them from the first mob u got full set .question how would u desing the game whit no grind ? how we gona get gear be competitive have fun and that feeling that we got progres ?

As I mentioned above, dungeon grind is actually not that bad compare to grinding for crafting weapons. However, Fractals of the Mists (FotM) created a new kind of grind that require people to do the dungeon from low level to high for EACH of their alts if they want to use different alts to do high level dungeon. For traditional dungeons, I can do explore mode with alts to experience the dungeon in different ways. However, if I want to do it with my alts in FotM, I need to do it from lv 1 which in my opinion is not necessary grind. That’s exactly why I think

In my opinion, if doing the same content is fun, I don’t mind to do it again and again. I won’t call them as grind. However the current situation is after you finished most of the content, the remaining is to craft some good looking exotic or legendary. If you play it without doing some targeted content again and again, based on the current requirement of those weapons, I am not sure anyone can reach that within a year or years. For example, lodestones can only be obtained in very limited area by killing certain types of mobs. In this case, you will not be able to get them from anywhere else. If you want it, what you can do is to grind in that area and hope for getting one for each hour. That means a hundred hour is a minimum just for one nice looking weapon. That’s why I said GW2 actually require much more grind than most MMO outside.

Of course you can say these good looking items are not needed to be competitive or will not affect the experience. However, for those who players finished most contents for a few times, this is the remaining target they can aim to achieve atm. I believe players don’t mind some grinding for good looking skins but the current grinding need is just too much for most players.

Having played quite a few MMOs (but no “Asian grindfests” – but games like WoW for years, tried Rift, ToR, WAR, Vanguard, EQ2, and also FFXI – which is the next closest to GW2), I think GW2 is the grindiest MMO I’ve played, if you disregard the PvP gear grinds in WoW and ToR (at least at release – I don’t know what it’s like now).

I put PvP gear grinds as a separate category because they are REQUIRED grinds to be competitive, and I have never heard anyone say they are “fun”.

A big part of GW2 appearing to be such a huge grind is that everything “else” to do, apart from heart quests and dynamic events – basically anything that leads to an item – requires massive amounts of X, Y and Z item, and there simply aren’t the events to acquire the items needed in “regular play”. And by regular play – I mean just going around and doing whatever and getting the drops naturally.

Take a set of karma armor – 250k karma. If you do every event in the game once – is that even enough karma? Disregarding that so many events are still bugged, and in lower level zones you get such a small amount compared to Orr, and is it any wonder people farmed the Plinx chain?

Or crafting – I hit 2 brick walls leveling my first character up to 80 and trying to keep my craft current (my other was cooking at it was very easy). One was the T2 mats, and the other was the T5 mats. At the T2 mat stage (first week of release), there was also no TP, so my only option was to let armorsmith lag behind, or go farm mobs for drops. I chose the farm mobs for drops option and was constantly hit by DR. So not only did I have to grind for crafting, I was also punished for it.

Strangely, on my 2nd character, I hit the exact same brick walls at T2 and T5 blue mats (tailor especially – artifice wasn’t so bad once I found a good guide). I’ve gotten 2 more crafts done (weapons and jewel), so I have only 2 more to go for master crafter, but I’m 100%ing the world on my 1st character, and I’m going to run into the exact same problem again – I’ll have more than enough of the non-fine mats, but not near enough fine mats, especially in the T2 and T5 ranges. Of course I’ll have the money to buy them off the TP, but if I didn’t, my only option would be to grind.

I think if much of the horizontal stuff worked at launch (or even now) and was fun to do, people wouldn’t feel like they are grinding so much, but doing 100% on my character (I’m 73 right now), it’s not only Orr that’s buggy with events – it’s most zones that are above the 25 range (and they’re also mostly devoid of other players – at least on my server).

But when you see the mats cost for many things (250 x, 250 y, 250 z, 250 a, 250 c), it just screams grind.

This game cant compete as a treadmill and it will die if it keeps going that way. Plain and simple, there is better out there and despite what the critics are saying positively about this game, empty servers and player word of mouth will be its doom.

It may turn out to be a very long painfully slow mistake (considering it took so long to make this game)

I dont play grindy f2p mmo’s from korea, i sorta felt like thats what I got but it cost me money this time.

I haven’t HAD to grind anything yet. But if I wanted a particular look, yes it would be grindy as kitten to get a full dungeon set.

I am also not sure how long I can ignore the Ascended grind.

I agree totally this whole game has become a massive grind, when i first started a few months ago loot flowed like it was suppose too now its just mob after mob of nothing trying to get anything in this game lately is a grind, what has Anet changed or broken to deserve all this grinding…

Grinding in MMOs is not fun at all…

Well I think that Anet ultimately poorly planned their game and as a result found out that End Game must feel like the End. You can’t expect players to go back to these lower level zones, they want to feel like they have progressed in some way. Anet even forces players to replay zones by requiring events to open up dungeons, and to spawn dragons. Which becomes repetitive, which becomes boring.

I don’t think they thought to hard on it. They encourage this play via dailies and I’m sure they will continue to encourage returning to previous areas. They still haven’t clued in that this again does not feel like progress.

It’s a fundamental development flaw. Due to this, the only activities that are left are what are perceived as grinds. These activities that were suppose to be a side or optional thing have become the ONLY things.

I don’t think they will break from this, and I think they are two months past the point where people start leaving because of it. So at this point they have mostly the players who have stayed I’m sure their marketing team refers to these people as “hardcore” players. So Anet turns around and will develop more content as time goes on for “hardcore” players while totally missing the clues that the main stay of players are not looking for this repetitious content and that hardcore players are only doing this content because there is nothing else.

@ Bregah.7365 and @ VampyreSix.8316
What you 2 are saying are exsteam exasdrasiong of the truth to the point of lieing. You CAN grind if you want but you do not have to if you feel that you have to grind in GW2 this is only your self putting presser to do so.
PvP can be played free verson having no grinding of levels.
These events are just part of the game to help you level up they where not in the game before and ppl did not know what to do for leveling up in a way they are a counter grind.
If you run daily and monthly you can get the karma to buy the items on top of events doing harts etc.. also give you karma.
Crafting is how you want it if you want to farm for the items to craft they it will take time if you want to say go from 300 to 400 in a day you will have a grind a lot getting back to the idea of “i want it now” making things worst for ppl. You can also buy such items or even go different paths to get to high crafting skill.
http://www.guildwars2-crafting.com/crafting-guides/
Now for the other one.
You can keep trying to stick that name on GW2 “treadmill” but its is imposable as things stand there is no full gear set out giving you not much to get on the next level and as they add more gear in they will add more ways to get it taking away the true idea of working “hard” to get the next level of gear to do the next level of events at the same time events will not become harder because of this gear there will be gear in old events and new events simply put what your trying to say is an out right LIE.

I personaly enjoy leveling new toons. I find it the best way to actualy learn their skills and adapt. Far as crafting in this game goes.. its a complete joke and havent a clue to why players even waste their time doing it. Way to many mats and time involed to get 1 lvl or craft 1 item. More when its far cheaper in value to farm the gold doing DE’s and buy the item on tp.

It’s a grind. They’ve introduced vertical progression which defines a grind. A rose by any other name…

Bregah.7365:

Having played quite a few MMOs (but no “Asian grindfests” – but games like WoW for years, tried Rift, ToR, WAR, Vanguard, EQ2, and also FFXI – which is the next closest to GW2), I think GW2 is the grindiest MMO I’ve played, if you disregard the PvP gear grinds in WoW and ToR (at least at release – I don’t know what it’s like now).

EverQuest was the absolute grindiest MMO I ever played, in many aspects. Gear. Progression. Leveling. Crafting.

Guild Wars 2 doesn’t get close enough on all those points, but “Crafting” can be pretty close. The Fine materials hunt is where it bogs down. Also “Hardened Leather” seems to be scarce but I’m probably not hunting the right spots.

I put PvP gear grinds as a separate category because they are REQUIRED grinds to be competitive, and I have never heard anyone say they are “fun”.

Thank goodness GW2 sPvP doesn’t require that. Hopefully ever.

A big part of GW2 appearing to be such a huge grind is that everything “else” to do, apart from heart quests and dynamic events – basically anything that leads to an item – requires massive amounts of X, Y and Z item, and there simply aren’t the events to acquire the items needed in “regular play”. And by regular play – I mean just going around and doing whatever and getting the drops naturally.

I haven’t encountered that problem except in the last two tiers of crafting, or presumably going after Ascended/Legendary. (I haven’t started that yet. I’m waiting to figure out which one I really want before making a checklist for what I need.)

Take a set of karma armor – 250k karma. If you do every event in the game once – is that even enough karma? Disregarding that so many events are still bugged, and in lower level zones you get such a small amount compared to Orr, and is it any wonder people farmed the Plinx chain?

This is why the Jugs of Karma were put into the game, and you can get one per day through Daily Achievements and a lot via Monthly Achievements. 4500 Karma per day in addition to what is earned doing the 5 Events for the Daily is nothing to sneeze at. This, plus the inclusion of “Drop of Liquid Karma” into dungeons from the Champion/Legendary bosses also helps that out.

A full set of Rubicon Armor from the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance is 252,000 Karma, or 56 Jugs of Liquid Karma. It will take approximately 2 months to accumulate it all, but once you have that much there is no chance of NOT getting it so long as the event chain is completed. Once you have the Karma it is only a matter of time. (Except, of course, if we’re talking Armageddon Armor in which case, it could possibly be more difficult. Due to the related Cathedral being . . . often contested.)

So it is becoming easier, a little. It’s definitely easier than it was in Guild Wars 1 to earn Obsidian Armor. Note that there are other Exotic armors you can get, just not with the exact set of statistics or the skin you are after.

Or crafting – (snip ) . . . Of course I’ll have the money to buy them off the TP, but if I didn’t, my only option would be to grind.

Fine Materials are the bottleneck I’ve always run into when mass-producing Inscriptions to craft with. Tier 2, however, can be hunted down with some effort in a few places. Tier 5 is more difficult but if you’re hunting the late-game areas it can be easier to get your hands on them. Tier 6 is where it becomes truly difficult to get a sizable amount. Hopefully, this will be remedied somehow.

For Exotic creation, Globs of Ectoplasm are always a bottleneck, as each Exotic is going to require 5 Globs of Ectoplasm – equating to 30 Globs of Ectoplasm for each set. Rares can give 0-4 Globs, Exotics seem to generate more but I haven’t gotten a big enough sample size. 30 is not a terribly unreachable number, though.

But when you see the mats cost for many things (250 x, 250 y, 250 z, 250 a, 250 c), it just screams grind.

Not gonna lie, that was a little perplexing that the Ascended item recipes were created with that level of required goods. I’m hopeful it gets knocked downwards later. For Legendaries, I’m almost positive it was intentional to try to keep them as a “final goal” for characters to achieve. Supported by each requiring a Gift of Exploration from 100% map completion.

I don’t grind. I just play the game.

Consequently, there are things in this game, things I’d like to have, that I’m not going to get anytime soon… if ever.

Yah, you can play this game and not grind. But there are aspects of it that most certainly encourage just that kind of behavior.

Serious time investment + narrow (or single) path/activity for obtainment = promotion of grind.

That formula is all over this game.

@Tobias Trueflight
I agree that Jugs of Karma is used to reduce the amount of grind. However the main question I want to bring out about the current situation of GW2 is “Is that necessary to require so much work/time for a piece/set of gear?” As you mentioned, even for someone who can finish their daily achievements EVERY DAY, they need approximately 2 Months for a set of Karma armor. If you need to keep doing the same thing for 2 months just for a set of gear (with not that impressive look and not better statistics compare to other exotic), I believe this is very grindy.

I think most of the problem experiance by players including the grind issue comes from what focus said players give to the game!

Ask yourself why are you playing the game? from a lot of discussion I see going around seems for most players the answer to that question is get Object X. That focus in turn leads to situations such as grind. Goals are important and you need to have goals of course but my suggestion is dont make the game about reaching a goal rather funnel the activity you like doing into that goal. In most cases GW2 allows you to do just that with a few exceptions!

Let me expand on this. Lets say you’re trying to get an Exotic weapon. Now you have a choice. Is the exotic weapon your reward for playing the game or are you playing the game to get the exotic weapon? This might seem the same thing but in truth there is a major difference.

If you’re playing the game to get the exotic weapon you’re going to see whats the quest less effort path to get there. This will in turn be buying it off TP which means you’ll need to get 2g – 3g which in turn finding that goal asap will in turn generally involve grinding out some event with a zerg. The game now seems a grind!

But what happens if we try to get the exotic weapon and as a reward for playing the game? then you have to decide what you enjoy doing the most. Say play Dynamic Events to enjoy the story. You keep doing dynamic events, earn karma/gold doing them once you have enough of either one you buy the exotic weapon. Zero grind involved. you enjoyed the game from start to finish! Same applies to any activity in the game. If you enjoy WvW you can get an exotic weapon playing that, same story with dungeons and crafting.

This also applies to legendaries ! legendaries require you to play a lot of everything thats both a blessing and a curse. The curse being you might not like dungeons but to get a legendary you need to do it. Its also a bless because you dont have to lock yourself in repetition, play what you feel like doing! evening playing in a level 30 zone doing events and gathering along the way will get you closer to your legendary !

Now before I named a few exception and what I meant by that is specific skins! while you can get an exotic weapon / armor doing anything you desire specific skins are tied to specific activites! so If you want a ghastly skin and you dont like dungeons well you can avoid that sense of grinding as you repeat an activity you dont like. That being said because Gw2 doesnt put a lot of emphases on gear there is really no need to keep repeating the same dungeon over and over until you get the tokens you need. Just spread it out over time doing a run now and again. That can help bring the feeling of grind down a lot!

Simply speaking weather this game turns out to be a massive grind or no grind at all depends on you and how you approach a task! If you’re not impacient you can enjoy the game get whatever you desire without having to grind at all!

how can you grind for exploration? If you want to explore the full world and are playing it for fun then how is it a grind?
It took me 2 days to outfit 3 chars in crafted squishy armor. It took the same amount of time for my Bf to make me exotic weapons for those said 3 chars. It’s not hard to save up or to find mats. Malchor’s leap had it raining tier 6 mats for me at one point.

@Mirta
I won’t say this happens to everyone. However, if you finished a map for first character, finish the map again for second alt, third alt, and forth alt. The exploration eventually become bored for fifth alt or more. In my opinion, after the first character finished a map, its no longer called exploration for other characters because that will be simply running for unlocking PoI and vistas just for the map completion. Due to this bad design, I have finished Queensdale more than eight times since BWE1. I don’t think its fun to keep doing the same “exploration” for every character. Actually I really want to know what is the purpose for forcing players to do things again and again.

OnlyFate.8549:

@Mirta
I won’t say this happens to everyone. However, if you finished a map for first character, finish the map again for second alt, third alt, and forth alt. The exploration eventually become bored for fifth alt or more. In my opinion, after the first character finished a map, its no longer called exploration for other characters because that will be simply running for unlocking PoI and vistas just for the map completion. Due to this bad design, I have finished Queensdale more than eight times since BWE1. I don’t think its fun to keep doing the same “exploration” for every character. Actually I really want to know what is the purpose for forcing players to do things again and again.

question unless you’re gunning for a legendary on each of your alts, why do you feel you need to finish each and every map on every character ?

Galen Grey.4709:

question unless you’re gunning for a legendary on each of your alts, why do you feel you need to finish each and every map on every character ?

Based on the design of the game, this is the fastest way to gain XP for leveling up a character (Unless you are in a very active WvW server). If not, it takes even longer to level up a character. Also, they actually encourage players to complete maps for more some gem store items such as Black Lion salvage kit, chest keys, etc. There is no reason for no completing a map when leveling a character. However, no matter how “fun” exploration can provide, after a few times for completing the same map, things get bored and there is no other ways to level up an alt.

I disagree with the aspect that this whole game is a big grind.
It’s basically all optional, it’s there but it’s optional.

Is it repetitive? probably.

What sold me on Guild Wars 2 was that the world would be changing as you play. There would be events going on and as the game progressed, more and more events would go on. Exploration owuld be fun, and there would be so many things to do that you wouldn’t run out.

Now I myself, don’t include farming into that. Actually I never have farmed all that much other than the dredge event in frostgorge sound. Simply because I get sheer enjoyment out of killing large waves of enemies, and they would drop good stuff, so why not. Dungeons? I haven’t touched much on those, it takes planning, and dungeon sets are a grind I cannot possibly put myself too. Yet I have two full exotics on my character.
Jumping puzzles, right, these are a bit of a niche thing that not all people like. But since I’m an excellent jumper and somehow love jumping even though I fail numerous times, I get alot of fun out of that, not to mention that some of the jumping puzzles are simply amazing. Hell some jumping puzzles don’t even require that much jumping at all.

Then recently they added mini dungeons. and boss events and there’s keg brawl which is fairly skillful, WvW when I can get a small group of supply camp raiders with me is simply great.

Oh right, and then events and to do them with a few people instead of with a massive zerg where there is always one person saying you need more, even though every group event scales up after 5+ people. kitten pointless to get more if it scales so it’s equally as hard)

And indeed there’s aspects where you feel you wont get them when you don’t grind, like the CoF armor which everyone seems to want even though it’s as ugly as a piece of wood on fire (then again people have been fascinated by fire since the beginning of humanity). And I think, should I get this? Should I do this dungeon over and over and over? Hell that thought alone makes me stop doing it because it has such a derogatory effect on my enjoyment that I simply refuse.

But yeah, if you play the game solely for “achieving” and acquiring" then things get grindy, which is why I refuse. Because I don’t like grinding. Simple.

OnlyFate.8549:

Galen Grey.4709:

question unless you’re gunning for a legendary on each of your alts, why do you feel you need to finish each and every map on every character ?

Based on the design of the game, this is the fastest way to gain XP for leveling up a character (Unless you are in a very active WvW server). If not, it takes even longer to level up a character. Also, they actually encourage players to complete maps for more some gem store items such as Black Lion salvage kit, chest keys, etc. There is no reason for no completing a map when leveling a character. However, no matter how “fun” exploration can provide, after a few times for completing the same map, things get bored and there is no other ways to level up an alt.

Fair enough, you do have 5 maps to start with though so you can get a little variation and multiple maps to choose from going up from them as well. Will not solve the problem 100% of course, you’ll still eventually have to repeat maps but its a lot better to repeat the same map after say 100 hours of game play then right after each other!

also I like to caution people about being too efficient! If you really enjoy exploration, there is a lot more exploration to be done in a zone then the POIs and Vistas marked on the map! There are unmarked areas you can discover that reward you XP, hidden jumping puzzles as well as hidden events (events that dont trigger unless you talk to an unmarked NPC or Interact with an Object or even perform an action hinted by something you interact with). Well probably you already know this but just in case nothing wasted re-itterating it

I had no issue with the grinds for legendary stuff cause that was just a skin. But the new ascend stuff and the infusions forced into the dungeon sucks.
Nothing separated you stat wise with the gear but visual appearance. The greater the appearance the bigger the grind. I am fine with that or titles ect.

But to grind for +10 gear for me is not fun in this game. Many others do it much better and much more enjoyable and I have left for greener pastures.

If there was a more pronounced shift to pay to relieve grind like WoT does it might go better but anets prices seem out of whack.
I never achieved the 100% exploration but if I did and was on my 3 alt then I could see how it would be grind.
Anet seems to have grandiose visions and the implementation is poor and delusional at times.
What I can say is it is going to get worse as Raids (guild Activities) are incoming and the bugs ect and grind that come with that are going to be horrific. Along with trinity type mechanics introduced with the Raids. If there is a steep drop off of metrics from players they could put it on the back burner but seeing how they are going I doubt it.

I havent played in 2 weeks and moved on. I hope that my voice will help steer anet in the direction I want. Lol like a rock listens.

I have had zero grind time equipping my level 80 characters in full exotic gear … it hasn’t happened immediately but it was pretty quick. The grind kicked in when I wanted specific cosmetic options; I relished that grind because every moment felt as though I were working towards something that I really wanted. Also I knew that any time I liked I could just stop grinding and it wouldn’t disadvantage me in the slightest.

Now we have a new tier of items, these things aren’t gating content … yet. However we’ve all (I’m sure) seen or heard of examples of “soft gating” where it is not the game mechanics that block progression but the community; I’ve heard tales of people being required to link their gear and then being kicked if it wasn’t deemed good enough. Anyone remember the horrors of GearScore in WoW? That was a perfect example of “soft gating.” I can see groups demanding full-Ascended gear once there are enough pieces released. If Ascended items become as easy to obtain as Exotics going forward then I’m sure it will all turn into a non-issue; if, on the other hand, it really does bridge the time-gap between Exotic and Legendary items then it is entirely possible that people will be left behind … and that’s not good.

When I see someone with a Legendary weapon, I feel really pleased for them; they went through the mind-boggling process of obtaining their weapon not because it was BiS but purely because of its looks. Speaking purely personally that’s the kind of game I want to play, not one where the acronym BiS even has a meaning.

OnlyFate.8549:

@Tobias Trueflight
I agree that Jugs of Karma is used to reduce the amount of grind. However the main question I want to bring out about the current situation of GW2 is “Is that necessary to require so much work/time for a piece/set of gear?” As you mentioned, even for someone who can finish their daily achievements EVERY DAY, they need approximately 2 Months for a set of Karma armor. If you need to keep doing the same thing for 2 months just for a set of gear (with not that impressive look and not better statistics compare to other exotic), I believe this is very grindy.

The thing is, I was just illustrating some points, not arguing for/against grind. However now I’m going to have to drop my opinion:

1 – Daily Achievements don’t have to be a grind.

Just about every area (except Orr) has the 15 diverse enemy types, and you can rack up the rest of the tracks easily enough. It takes less than an hour, typically, to pick up the whole Daily Achievement when you’re actively trying. The only time it doesn’t is if you’re missing events, and that can happen.

And with the whole of the world to wander through, you can vary where you go for your Daily earning. Queensdale and Gendarran Fields are used by a lot of people but it’s also easy to do Wayfarer Foothills or Plains of Ascalon. Metrica Province can actually be a bit fun to do. Just . . . say no to Thaumanova.

Put mildly? Doing Daily Achievements for your Karma needs can be varied enough to not be a joyless grind. Also, if you do go to Cursed Shore and do event chains (in addition) you will speed it up quite a bit.

(Notably, you can also speed it up VERY MUCH by doing dungeons’ explorable modes.)

2 – Don’t hate me for saying this. You don’t need the Karma armors. You don’t even really require Exotics. Masterwork and Rare can do fine for most common running around. You also don’t need the dungeon armors. Merely kitting yourself out in Rare armor should suffice, and the Exotics can be pushed back to “as I have the effort”.

(Re: dungeon armors? Approximately 1200 Ascalonian Tears for the full Dungeon set, which at 180/day is 7 days. One week of running all three paths every day.)

I said before, the two month “grind” you mentioned is still better than the optional grind for Obsidian Armor in GW1. For as much as people like to talk about that grind for Karma goods, it sure is strange to have it be less time consuming. (Either that or they were extraordinarily rich/lucky.)

Edit: Before you start about Ascended gear, I’m not going to talk about that stuff. You don’t need it, and I’m not going to begin arguing it’s not a grind. It very much can be one.

OnlyFate.8549:

Actually I really want to know what is the purpose for forcing players to do things again and again.

So you can earn multiple “Gifts of Exploration” which are used for forging Legendary weapons. Since you only receive two when you 100% the first time, that would mean two Legendary weapons only for an account. Allowing you to do it per character means you can technically do it infinitely if you have the stomach for it.

. . . no. No I don’t, before you even ask the question. I’m hard pressed to find one Legendary I especially want.

I think this game is full of grind, no question about that.

I think grinding for mats and requirements for Legendaries is fine.
I think grinding out dungeon sets via dungeon runs is fine.
I think grinding out mats for other exotics should be kept to a minimum.
I think the grind for ascended gear is way too much.

There is a lot of grind in this game. I laugh everytime Anet says theres no grind. There definately is, and most of it is still OK. But then I hear obsurd statements like Grind and Cash shop. Nothing to do with eachother.

To respond to a snippit of one above poster:
The day I am “gear checked” and thus booted out of the group, is the day I delete the game without hesitation. That is something I will absolutely not tolerate.

Only FoTM lvl 7 right now…if you friggin people at lvl 25 think you’re going to gear check me, you’re going to find a lot more people like me that are going to quit this game. Good luck finding groups then, when more and more people quit because of gear checks.

OnlyFate.8549:

@Mirta
I won’t say this happens to everyone. However, if you finished a map for first character, finish the map again for second alt, third alt, and forth alt. The exploration eventually become bored for fifth alt or more. In my opinion, after the first character finished a map, its no longer called exploration for other characters because that will be simply running for unlocking PoI and vistas just for the map completion. Due to this bad design, I have finished Queensdale more than eight times since BWE1. I don’t think its fun to keep doing the same “exploration” for every character. Actually I really want to know what is the purpose for forcing players to do things again and again.

I level my alts in the zones that I like and stay away from full map completion. There’s so many zones that I would not want to set my foot into again. I wouldn’t say that it’s a grind though, because it’s you that chooses to do this. Plus you should be level 80 far before you finish the full map completion again… Also tried crafting for exp? This game feels best when you’re doing a bit of everything and are having fun, instead of focusing on one aspect of it (exploration).

cesmode.4257:

I think this game is full of grind, no question about that.

I think grinding for mats and requirements for Legendaries is fine.
I think grinding out dungeon sets via dungeon runs is fine.
I think grinding out mats for other exotics should be kept to a minimum.
I think the grind for ascended gear is way too much.

There is a lot of grind in this game. I laugh everytime Anet says theres no grind. There definately is, and most of it is still OK. But then I hear obsurd statements like Grind and Cash shop. Nothing to do with eachother.

you can not buy anything you need for any of these gear sets in the cash shops, so how ARE they connected? Exotics are easy to get and make, so I doubt that there’s a grind there. Ascendeds will soon be released everywhere so you wouldn’t have to do same thing over and over again to get it. I do agree that legendaries are a grind, but on the other hand, you don’t have to go for a legendary, because it’s just a skin.

Personally I think dungeon armor was implemented badly. Instead of forcing you to run a dungeon multiple times, they should have done it the old fashioned way. Eg. Allow you to assemble the required mats without stepping foot inside the dungeon, complete a certain quest, NPC spawns who will then craft it for you. Same way Obsidian set was obtained. I didn’t have to farm FoW a gazillion times to get it, since the mats were obtainable outside. (via trade or simply buying from material trader)

Getting full exotic gear takes a little farming that can hardly be called a grind, unless you want to have it in 3 days after getting to lvl80. What DOES take a grind is obtaining some of the more spectacular exotics and the legendary items. Arenanet never said there would be no grind in the game, just that you didn’t NEED to grind to do all content. Which is true. You can see and do all content without legendaries and it doesn’t matter what exotics you’re wearing, they’re all “best in slot”. The only difference is the looks, which makes the grinding completely optional. I don’t see at all how ppl can be mad about that. Grinding is the ONLY mechanism that provides players a chance to obtain something unique-ish, don’t spoil that chance because there is a market for uniqueness of looks. It’s pretty much the only thing in this whole game that provides certain players a goal and a sense of achievement once the goal’s been reached.

You don’t want to grind? Then don’t and enjoy your more common looking gear. Just don’t wish for ALL gear to look common.