Zerk is the average Joe build. Don’t pat yourself in the back too hard.
GW1 = more build diversity?
it’s really simple, if i can’t choose the skills on my weapon then i question what ppl talk about with builds.
i never use a scepter on any prof, they just suck and the same is for the mace.
if i could change the skills then i might use them more, i would remove the lame defend skill on the mace and replace it for a pierce throw.
in GW1 i can do that at any time, in GW2 we are stuck with lame skills no one uses unless for fun.
every time i see a guardian they always use the GS, it becomes quite tiring to see the same.
and why do you think that is, it’s not because of choice but rather lack of.
it’s really simple, if i can’t choose the skills on my weapon then i question what ppl talk about with builds.
i never use a scepter on any prof, they just suck and the same is for the mace.
if i could change the skills then i might use them more, i would remove the lame defend skill on the mace and replace it for a pierce throw.in GW1 i can do that at any time, in GW2 we are stuck with lame skills no one uses unless for fun.
every time i see a guardian they always use the GS, it becomes quite tiring to see the same.
and why do you think that is, it’s not because of choice but rather lack of.
Right because in Guild Wars 1 everyone used quick shot.
With 1000+ skills and 7 customizeable heroes, of course you have more build diversity…
I hear the new Vanquishing Meta is actually the “Rangerway” in which 5 Rangers spam barrage with buffs.
While the diversity of GW1 was glorious for players, it was an admitted NIGHTMARE for the Dev Team. It’s not incorrect to say they sacrificed the nearly endless combination of skills available in GW1 for simplifying the game for both casual player accessibility AND ease of game balance (in ALL areas of content). While some say it’s a result of a “lazy” design decision, I have to think it’s more of a smart move on the Dev’s part.
The game works well as it is and despite the claims of there being very limited builds for each class, that really only applies in specific game content (Dungeons, Fractals, high end PvP, etc.). You can easily play this game, enjoy it and use any build you want but players DO need to keep in mind that even in Open World PvE, your performance as a player CAN effect other players around you. This fact was also true in GW1 so in terms of what others would “accept” in certain content, there was an imposed limitation on build diversity.
I also find it confusing that the OP would ask if this is going to change, when the entire game is built around the concept that makes the games different. The question itself does not make much sense to me. Exactly HOW could this game change to be more GW1ish and not be a totally different game?
We go out in the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
(edited by Brother Grimm.5176)
The biggest limiting factor for PvE in GW2 isn’t the number of builds, but the simple AI, condition capping, dodging being the best damage mitigation and cheesy boss mechanics which effectively nullifies whole swathes of potential builds.
Guild Leader of DVDF www.dvdf.org.uk since 2005
Why is active damage mitigation a problem? Shouldn’t a game reward situational awareness? And what bosses nullify builds? The only ones I can think of are bosses with extremely short condition duration like alphard or frequently purge conditions like alpha – but beyond that no bosses nullify builds at all.
Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes
Furthermore, in Guild Wars 1 you couldn’t change skills without going back to town which means starting over. Here you can alter skills as you go, swap out weapons, even traits now.
So in Guild Wars 1 you had a huge variety in the town and as soon as you went into the world, you had your eight skills…end of story.
I don’t consider that a limiting factor in the least. It meant having to account for a wider array of enemy builds and not just on a ‘per encounter’ basis, and I think that helped the variety a lot more than allowing them to be changed wherever as long as you’re out of combat.
Not to say that I don’t appreciate the ‘build on the go’ that GW2 has. It’s just that I don’t have as many tools this time around, and at least I can mix and match my current “tools” whenever and where ever I want.
The biggest limiting factor for PvE in GW2 isn’t the number of builds, but the simple AI, condition capping, dodging being the best damage mitigation and cheesy boss mechanics which effectively nullifies whole swathes of potential builds.
Zing. I hoped that it was a learned lesson from GW1 that static enemies with an insane amount of artificial difficulty does not an engaging PvE make.
I heard that enemy AI is harder to maintain and keep ‘interesting’ in a large open-world, but that’s just something I’ve only heard.
(edited by Smith.1826)
In the past, I use to believe that GW2 skills were going to be something similar to how GW1 worked, and for those who have played the original series would know what I mean. There were multiple builds and usually more than one way for every class to be played in game. But as I played through the GW2 betas that quickly changed.
I am bothered to see now how some classes have more or less builds than others. And even with there being another build, it usually only includes swapping out a few utilities while maintaining the same 5 skills from your weapon. Not only that, some classes have mechanics which keep them from even being played at their max potential or at all in certain game modes. (Necro’s and Rangers).
So to start the conversation, How did we go from creating almost endless combos of builds in GW1 to being pigeon hold into certain builds to fit the meta in GW2? Is there any chance that things will improve or only get worse?
/Discuss
It was too work intensive for the Devs to maintain skill balance. Yep that was the reason given. I was like “Seriously?” If my development team admitted that and wanted to dumb the game down there would have been alot of job openings. They may as well have told me, “We can’t do the job sorry..”
I’m waiting for them to announce console versions of Gw2. I’m used to MMO’s that require a lot more thought and planning.
(edited by Evon Skyfyre.9673)
it’s really simple, if i can’t choose the skills on my weapon then i question what ppl talk about with builds.
i never use a scepter on any prof, they just suck and the same is for the mace.
if i could change the skills then i might use them more, i would remove the lame defend skill on the mace and replace it for a pierce throw.in GW1 i can do that at any time, in GW2 we are stuck with lame skills no one uses unless for fun.
every time i see a guardian they always use the GS, it becomes quite tiring to see the same.
and why do you think that is, it’s not because of choice but rather lack of.Right because in Guild Wars 1 everyone used quick shot.
oh wow, so because one skill isn’t use you think that’s a good argument against a whole weapon not being used, a champ move…..-_-
There’s another aspect people really aren’t considering. You can move and cast in Guild Wars 2. Part of the skill is actually in how you play,. when you dodge, which wasn’t as often a factor in Guild Wars 1.
It’s not that there’s no skill here, but the skill set is different. You have less skills, but you can change them more often.
In Guild Wars 1, if you wanted to do Bogroot Growths in hard mode, you had to make a build that would get you through Sparkfly Swamp. Then you’d have to use the SAME build to get you through the dungeon…because you couldn’t swap skills outside an outpost. It meant that very often success or failure in Guild Wars 1 was decided before you ever left the outpost.
The same can’t be said for Guild Wars 2. It doesn’t need as much build diversity because other types of skills come into play.
Edit: But it should have MORE build diversity than it has now. I’m just saying it will never have, nor should it have, the type of build diversity that Guild Wars 1 had.
I haven’t read other replies yet, but “move while cast” makes the game less skillful, but more fun/approachable. e.g. you don’t have to consider whether it’s better to attack or to change position because you can do both at the same time. Overall GW2 “active combat” is interesting and fun, but it is hampered by limited skill availability as you said already, and limited meaningful interaction with teammates.
The build diversity is the same in both games.
GW1 had more skills, sure, but the majority were underpowered and never even used in the first place.
GW2 has less skills, but makes up for it with traits and expanded gear compared to gw1. If two builds used the same skills/utilities but had different traits/gear, those two builds would be played very differently.Additionally, gw1 and gw2 were made by completely different people. Don’t let the ArenaNet name fool you. Almost everyone who set the foundations of GW1 had left the company by the time GW2 got into the picture.
Its just that for the last almost 2 years we have been using the same skill set with traits either giving a buff or a debuff to them. In the first game even though there were meta builds your skill bar still changed. You could have different skills anytime you wanted as long as you had the skills unlocked. I dont have a problem wiith the current system but being able to change up your skill bar whenever you wanted and have near infinite combinations was great. That skill system with the different ways you aquired them was somethjng other games back then didnt have.
The build diversity is the same in both games.
GW1 had more skills, sure, but the majority were underpowered and never even used in the first place.
GW2 has less skills, but makes up for it with traits and expanded gear compared to gw1. If two builds used the same skills/utilities but had different traits/gear, those two builds would be played very differently.Additionally, gw1 and gw2 were made by completely different people. Don’t let the ArenaNet name fool you. Almost everyone who set the foundations of GW1 had left the company by the time GW2 got into the picture.
I disagree. Guild Wars ( see my sig) had more build diversity, the difference is, most of the skills were sityational… and synergized off of one another.
Situational skills that are Uber in the situation they are MEANT to be used…can seem underpowered if you try to use them where and when they are not intended.
Think of it Like Holy Water, when battling vampires… ( Not game related no there are no vampires in Guild Wars or Gw2. )…. if you are battling Vampires Holy Water is the bomb. If you try to use it when fighting Robots it’s underpowered… against robots.
Guild Wars intended for your Hotbar to be dynamic… constantly swapping skills in and out… you were intended to even swap your sub-class in and out. You could totally change your ability points in towns ..ability points that actually changed How your skills worked.
You could change the 5 main ability lines of your primary, and 4 of your sub-class.
Saying " Guild Wars skills were underpowered or useless." well. Pardon me for saying this, just says you did Not Know when the skills were powerful, and useful.
Gw2 dumbed the game down. They wanted to give players a game with 2 maybe 3 alternate builds, and weapon locked most of the skills.
Dumbs it down for us…. simplifies balancing for them.
I think we were gypped , but that’s just my opinion.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
In the past, I use to believe that GW2 skills were going to be something similar to how GW1 worked, and for those who have played the original series would know what I mean. There were multiple builds and usually more than one way for every class to be played in game. But as I played through the GW2 betas that quickly changed.
I am bothered to see now how some classes have more or less builds than others. And even with there being another build, it usually only includes swapping out a few utilities while maintaining the same 5 skills from your weapon. Not only that, some classes have mechanics which keep them from even being played at their max potential or at all in certain game modes. (Necro’s and Rangers).
So to start the conversation, How did we go from creating almost endless combos of builds in GW1 to being pigeon hold into certain builds to fit the meta in GW2? Is there any chance that things will improve or only get worse?
/Discuss
It was too work intensive for the Devs to maintain skill balance. Yep that was the reason given. I was like “Seriously?” If my development team admitted that and wanted to dumb the game down there would have been alot of job openings. They may as well have told me, “We can’t do the job sorry..”
I’m waiting for them to announce console versions of Gw2. I’m used to MMO’s that require a lot more thought and planning.
This! For a second I felt I was the only one that heard the dev reasoning as " Sorry, we don’t know how to give you a more fun more diverse game. It’s hard for us to make, and for you to play. " A simpler game suits both of us.
I always took it as a Bit of an insult that the devs decided to simplify the game because.
1. The Original Guild Wars is too complex for casual gamers….
2. It’s too hard for us to balance it….
Basically they are admitting they cannot provide us a game we might find exciting because it would make their game harder to balance. Last time I checked it’s their job to give US a more thrilling game, Not give themselves a cushy easy job, That we pay for.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
My main was Monk.
In PvP – WoH/RC/LS/PaH/SoR/ZB/Smiter…etc
In PvE – HB/UA/WoH/RoJ/55hp/600hp/ …etcAnd I only named the meta builds. Mo/A (Assassin’s Promise) wasn’t even considered meta, but it worked extremely great – (Basic principle, spam all your skills and cast AP for instant recharge of all skills).
No Build Diversity? Get real.
A handful of builds over six years. You’re not taking time into account. I’m positive 600 monks appeared way after some other builds and some builds were far less viable by the time they appeared. There was an evolution.
55 monks eventually became just farming builds and pretty much the place people used them was outside Bergen Hotsprings. They weren’t a build that people used to play the game. They were a build people used to farm in one specific spot.
But I wouldn’t take kitten monk build into most dungeons.
If you want to talk about builds that won’t work in harder content or anywhere, Guild Wars 2 has plenty of them.
Since when is farming not a part of playing the game? You do it in the game, it’s part of playing the game for those of us that like farming.
I am confused the way you say
55 monks eventually became just farming builds and pretty much the place people used them was outside Bergen Hotsprings. They weren’t a build that people used to play the game. They were a build people used to farm in one specific spot.
Are you saying that even for those of us that enjoy farming, and that enjoy using the 55 monk build, somehow the fact that it’s farming, even if it’s only one location, somehow we are not playing the game? what are we play8ing then? It Looked to me Like I was Logged into Guild Wars, and I was playing a Guild Wars profession…. and killing Guild Wars mobs… to collect Guild Wars Loot.
What game was i playing?
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
There’s another aspect people really aren’t considering. You can move and cast in Guild Wars 2. Part of the skill is actually in how you play,. when you dodge, which wasn’t as often a factor in Guild Wars 1.
It’s not that I’m not considering it, I just don’t feel them entirely worth mentioning. They’re far from unique features, and cast-while-move is something I particularly don’t like as it reminds me too much of other typical MMOs like WoW. I’m much more a fan of the risk/reward scenarios that exist when you have to commit to attacks and other actions.
Dodge buttons/mechanics have existed for a long time, generally in cases where they favor more precise timing (dodge rolls in GW2 are full of invulnerability frames).
But there’s your problem right there. Your great sword warrior. It’s like sayign there are a ton of options for sword warriors in Guild Wars 1. There really weren’t.
As a sword war, I could focus on a sword elite or a strength elite (sometimes even a tactics elite), then choose to compliment it with sword/strength/tactic skills, adrenaline/energy skills, and secondary profession skills. This was just PvE. Even without limiting myself to one weapon moveset, I felt like I had far more choice in GW1 than in GW2 regarding my skillbar, way more choice.
Edit: But it should have MORE build diversity than it has now. I’m just saying it will never have, nor should it have, the type of build diversity that Guild Wars 1 had.
I’m with you there. Nearing it’s two year anniversary, GW2’s granted us a few new traits and equipment stat combinations. A little over two years after it’s release, GW1 acquired it’s third expansion pack worth of skills. I want them to find that middle ground: GW1 was more than they could chew, GW2 is way too little.
Good analogy, Guild Wars was more than they could chew. Sort of reminds me of a Dagwood sandwich. Where does one start? How does one start? For me these are welcome questions. It means how I tackle the dagwood sandwich of options is always a factor and contributes to my fun when I get it to work.
Gw2 is watered down broth. Nothing to sink My teeth into.
Second thing I wish to say. Not all of us Live on websites looking up the " Most optimal build." So while there is only 1 Most Optimal Build that does not equal…“ONLY build” Just " Only build for those actively seeking the most optimal build online."
I enjoyed theorycrafting different builds with different sub-classes. I enjoyed seeing what I came up with if I focused on one type of skill as opposed to another.
You could be an interrupter, or you could be a snarer, or you could be a health drainer… you could be teleporting backstabber… you could focus on positional play…. or you could …etc.etc.etc.etc.
Guild Wars was a complex game when it came to builds, and many players would play non-viable builds. But so what?
Either you learn and adapt or you don’t.
Gw2 was supposed to be " More welcoming to casual players."
The problem I have is, that they insult casual players. The idea that for casual players to enjoy it, it needs to be dumbed down. I would think casual players can learn how to theory craft as much as anyone else. I think the problem is, some casual players… do nto wish to, and dislike that there are those that can, that then find a more viable build that is hard to counter from something on gw2wiki, since it is original.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
The problem I have is, that they insult casual players. The idea that for casual players to enjoy it, it needs to be dumbed down. I would think casual players can learn how to theory craft as much as anyone else. I think the problem is, some casual players… do nto wish to, and dislike that there are those that can, that then find a more viable build that is hard to counter from something on gw2wiki, since it is original.
I agree 100%. GW was actually more of a “casual” player game than GW2 is. Gw you didn’t have to find groups for your missions/dungeons. You could role a PvP only character and jump right into a match in RA. And if you belonged to a guild; which most of us did, you could usually jump right into any group play.
“Casual” doesn’t mean stupid/lazy. It means you don’t have as much time as the “Hardcore” players.
Well, I kind of liked the idea of ANet going “okay, GW1 was clearly too much for us to handle, we’ll work out what we can do in GW2”. The idea of a ‘reset’ or a ‘second chance’ wasn’t altogether a bad one, I just wasn’t expecting them to tone it down by this much. I’m REALLY hoping they have more in the works and that this isn’t the extent of “how much they can chew”.
Well, I kind of liked the idea of ANet going “okay, GW1 was clearly too much for us to handle, we’ll work out what we can do in GW2”. The idea of a ‘reset’ or a ‘second chance’ wasn’t altogether a bad one, I just wasn’t expecting them to tone it down by this much. I’m REALLY hoping they have more in the works and that this isn’t the extent of “how much they can chew”.
There is a difference between." We Bit off more than we could chew let’s simplify it a bit." and ….
GW2.
Guild Wars may have been 3d Chess with an 8×8×8 grid…. but …
Gw2 is not even checkers it’s tic-tac-toe.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
I think part of the aspect that I miss from GW1 is that the cool downs were shorter. I could basically create builds around an elite. The elite itself could be used quite frequently making it reasonable to flavour your strategy off the elite. Now with your elite having cooldowns of 1min, this sort of tight skill integration is sort of lessened in a way.
As for the ranger, I was never a great gw1 player but I felt there were tons of builds. I hated pets so didn’t have one, but others quite successfully sent thier bloody Moas against me. I had close range shooting rangers (there were two skills that were the same thing w different names that would do large damage at half distance), I had long range, traps, etc. etc. And they were all viable in my jade quarry player vs. player interaction. I had a great time uncovering new synergistic strategies. Now I do feel that there is less wonder in exploring and inventing new and creative quirky builds. If you choose a 2 handed weapon there’s half your skills all chosen for you. You can choose 3 optionsals, but their cooldown is often like 30 seconds so it doesn’t really fell as integrated when I’m actually in the act of doing the skill mashing. And your elite is nice, but I don’t really consider it too much in my other skill choices, I mean with my warrior it’s signet of rage or battle standard, regardless of what other skill combinations I come up with.
To ignore and kinda not ignore some of the above posts and just reply to the OP.
Yes Gw1 had greater build diversity for a very long time.
Why? Second professions along with a huge pile of skills to swap in and out of and “trait” for to make more effective. Towards the end of its more healthy run, Mesmers were king of Build diversity as casters and had more builds than you could shake a stick at due to one somewhat OP and broken Elite skill (the one signet that applied your stat in Illusions, usually 16, to any skills following its use)
But Gw1 also had a lot of potential to create “Broken” builds which then needed a tweak or nerf from the devs. And Gw1 also had the potential to create a ton of useless builds. Warrior with Firestorm anyone?
Balance was a nightmare in Gw1.
Build diversity in Gw2 is more focused on Gear and Traits and Food and Kits… etc.. its all about the NUMBERS and how your NUMBERS stack up against the enemies NUMBERS. It’s much less about forging your own play style and often more about forcing the game to kind of submit to your preference in play style with very mixed results.
Many professions are stuck with mechanics that, while good on paper, after 2 years kind of show that they don’t work as well as they could/should.
Many traits are useless and untouched by the vast majority of the player base i’m sure and some classes are even defined and made viable by their trait lines. Drawing build diversity from only 1 or two of the multiple sources Gw2 presents rather than all 4 or 5.
Locked Weapon skills and limited weapon selection allow an easier time for players to select a weapon that fits what they want to do while allowing Anet an easier time balancing them… if they would ever balance them.. and at the same time denies players the ability to really tune their character and class and “role” to what they want. Lack of serious variety of utilities also contributes to this and a few professions i play have some that are down right silly to take no matter what you are trying to do with them.
Gw2 also suffers from problems with conditions, boons, and other such things that play on this as well but that’s a different discussion for a different thread that the devs will also ignore.
TL;DR
Gw1 had more build diversity due to its mechanics, the same mechanics that made it difficult to create viable builds.
Gw2 is casual friendly and requires less thought and effort.
~Elyssion~
“Gw2, It’s still on the Table!” – Anet
“Gw2, It’s still on the Table!” – Anet
In the past, I use to believe that GW2 skills were going to be something similar to how GW1 worked, and for those who have played the original series would know what I mean. There were multiple builds and usually more than one way for every class to be played in game. But as I played through the GW2 betas that quickly changed.
I am bothered to see now how some classes have more or less builds than others. And even with there being another build, it usually only includes swapping out a few utilities while maintaining the same 5 skills from your weapon. Not only that, some classes have mechanics which keep them from even being played at their max potential or at all in certain game modes. (Necro’s and Rangers).
So to start the conversation, How did we go from creating almost endless combos of builds in GW1 to being pigeon hold into certain builds to fit the meta in GW2? Is there any chance that things will improve or only get worse?
/Discuss
It was too work intensive for the Devs to maintain skill balance. Yep that was the reason given. I was like “Seriously?” If my development team admitted that and wanted to dumb the game down there would have been alot of job openings. They may as well have told me, “We can’t do the job sorry..”
I’m waiting for them to announce console versions of Gw2. I’m used to MMO’s that require a lot more thought and planning.
This! For a second I felt I was the only one that heard the dev reasoning as " Sorry, we don’t know how to give you a more fun more diverse game. It’s hard for us to make, and for you to play. " A simpler game suits both of us.
I always took it as a Bit of an insult that the devs decided to simplify the game because.
1. The Original Guild Wars is too complex for casual gamers….
2. It’s too hard for us to balance it….Basically they are admitting they cannot provide us a game we might find exciting because it would make their game harder to balance. Last time I checked it’s their job to give US a more thrilling game, Not give themselves a cushy easy job, That we pay for.
Now ask yourself, in your heart of hearts, will you keep playing? Will your friends? If so, why would they (Anet) ever change anything? We come, we complain, we leave, they read, they laugh, they leave. Nothing changes. And nothing ever will. Epic Angrybirds requires more thought then this game. Your first 4 skills are fixed, so run, stop 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, run, stop, 1-2-3-4. I feel like a bot.
At least raids in SWTOR require some planning and skill.
Gw2 is casual friendly and requires less thought and effort.
Less thought? Try no thought. Spam skills, done.
You will never have an MMO RPG that has the depth of a real role playing game. That arguments around the role interpreted by the actor can’t be used for MMO’s (Ultima Online kind of had it and it was the first MMO released and the probably one of the last to try it). In MMO’s the role relies almost entirely on the gameplay. If you have experience having played many MMORPGs before, you know that certain classes has certain roles (foget about trinity). In GW2 there is so little difference between a thief, a warrior and a ranger that is not worth it. There are little to no special utilities brought by the classes depending on what they are.
As long as we the gaming public act pavlovian and wag our collective tails and keep buying sub standard games, why would they ever change anything? EA makes billions each year releasing games that should still be in Alpha testing. Nothing is done, we buy them, complain and buy em again, and again. We’re lemmings. Gamers are the least savvy consumers on the planet, we’ll buy anything. Gaming companies know this. And bank on it.
(edited by Evon Skyfyre.9673)
In the past, I use to believe that GW2 skills were going to be something similar to how GW1 worked, and for those who have played the original series would know what I mean. There were multiple builds and usually more than one way for every class to be played in game. But as I played through the GW2 betas that quickly changed.
I am bothered to see now how some classes have more or less builds than others. And even with there being another build, it usually only includes swapping out a few utilities while maintaining the same 5 skills from your weapon. Not only that, some classes have mechanics which keep them from even being played at their max potential or at all in certain game modes. (Necro’s and Rangers).
So to start the conversation, How did we go from creating almost endless combos of builds in GW1 to being pigeon hold into certain builds to fit the meta in GW2? Is there any chance that things will improve or only get worse?
/Discuss
It was too work intensive for the Devs to maintain skill balance. Yep that was the reason given. I was like “Seriously?” If my development team admitted that and wanted to dumb the game down there would have been alot of job openings. They may as well have told me, “We can’t do the job sorry..”
I’m waiting for them to announce console versions of Gw2. I’m used to MMO’s that require a lot more thought and planning.
This! For a second I felt I was the only one that heard the dev reasoning as " Sorry, we don’t know how to give you a more fun more diverse game. It’s hard for us to make, and for you to play. " A simpler game suits both of us.
I always took it as a Bit of an insult that the devs decided to simplify the game because.
1. The Original Guild Wars is too complex for casual gamers….
2. It’s too hard for us to balance it….Basically they are admitting they cannot provide us a game we might find exciting because it would make their game harder to balance. Last time I checked it’s their job to give US a more thrilling game, Not give themselves a cushy easy job, That we pay for.
Now ask yourself, in your heart of hearts, will you keep playing? Will your friends? If so, why would they (Anet) ever change anything? We come, we complain, we leave, they read, they laugh, they leave. Nothing changes. And nothing ever will. Epic Angrybirds requires more thought then this game. Your first 4 skills are fixed, so run, stop 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-4, run, stop, 1-2-3-4. I feel like a bot.
At least raids in SWTOR require some planning and skill.
Gw2 is casual friendly and requires less thought and effort.
Less thought? Try no thought. Spam skills, done.
You forgot to also say NO EFFORT as well when you can just set to auto-fire.
Mud Bone – Sylvari Ranger
You forgot to also say NO EFFORT as well when you can just set to auto-fire.
Indeed, very very true.
I still remember theory crafting an ideal Jade Knight (or whatever were they called) Hard Mode solo (with one hero) farming build.
I came up with extremely gimmicky and Mo/Me build with Famine R/Mo Bonder Hero.
Was fun to play even though it was far from the most efficient build.
It was like playing a MTG/YGO. Theory crafting, analyzing, etc.
In GW2?
I still remember theory crafting an ideal Jade Knight (or whatever were they called) Hard Mode solo (with one hero) farming build.
I came up with extremely gimmicky and Mo/Me build with Famine R/Mo Bonder Hero.
Was fun to play even though it was far from the most efficient build.
It was like playing a MTG/YGO. Theory crafting, analyzing, etc.In GW2?
I miss running folks around, my assassin was a lot of fun.
Wonder when they will lock this? LOL
I still remember theory crafting an ideal Jade Knight (or whatever were they called) Hard Mode solo (with one hero) farming build.
I came up with extremely gimmicky and Mo/Me build with Famine R/Mo Bonder Hero.
Was fun to play even though it was far from the most efficient build.
It was like playing a MTG/YGO. Theory crafting, analyzing, etc.In GW2?
In Gw2? we all equip the same gear, we run everything through until they loss aggro, then collapse in a corner where we can’t even see our own character and spam the same 1,2 or maybe 3 buttons.
Zerk is the average Joe build. Don’t pat yourself in the back too hard.
I still remember theory crafting an ideal Jade Knight (or whatever were they called) Hard Mode solo (with one hero) farming build.
I came up with extremely gimmicky and Mo/Me build with Famine R/Mo Bonder Hero.
Was fun to play even though it was far from the most efficient build.
It was like playing a MTG/YGO. Theory crafting, analyzing, etc.In GW2?
In Gw2? we all equip the same gear, we run everything through until they loss aggro, then collapse in a corner where we can’t even see our own character and spam the same 1,2 or maybe 3 buttons.
What I miss is the fact that the mobs we fought had their own skill set, that they used. I felt Like " Ok, these mobs are known for this style of combat…. If I wish to do well enough to face down the named Boss and capture his elite skill ( remember how fun elite captures were?)… then I need to counter this type of play from the mobs In this area."
I Miss having elite skills that then became the center of a build, and a playstyle. In Gw2, what frustrates me is, how they seem to think " casual" means " incapable of theorycrafting"… They “simplified” the game.
2 reasons I have heard from players that defend Anet’s actions:
1. Simpler for the player, that doesn’t have to learn a lot of situational skills ( read …dumbed down …)
2. Simpler for the Developers who have less skills to balance.
Personally I don’t really accept either….
the first is insulting to the casual players.,…. saying they are dumb, the second is insulting to the developers…. saying they are lazy.
Personally I do not believe either. I just think that the devs are giving players as little as they demand. If they are content with a simpler game…why would the devs give them anything more?
So ultimately I blame the players. If players are happy with a hamburger a side of fries, and a coke…. Why would anyone cook them a Veal marsala? Why serve them a fine wine?
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
To me when you read through this entire discussion it seems the diversity issue is really the fault of the players, not the game.
I don’t think it’s debatable that GW1 has literally more diversity than GW2. The arguments that are raging here revolve around what game figuratively has more diversity. In this arena, the limits are artificially imposed by the players because they lock themselves into going with what is deemed optimal. Once you remove these limits both games become a lot more fun. If I can complete a task it shouldn’t matter so much if it takes 4 minutes with an optimal build or 5 minutes with a suboptimal build, but you’re going to get yelled at by other players for being `wrong`. In this regard I think ANet did themselves a disservice by dropping the trinity model, as the collective number of optimal builds is now reduced. Personally I don’t find having to solely maximize my damage output that interesting.
That being said, even in the realm of trying to make any build I want, I find GW2 a bit lacking. Taking Rangers as an example- if I want to try out a build where I `run spirits`, well, there’s only 4 to choose from for 3 slots (discounting the Healing Spirit) so there isn’t much choice there. Same thing if I want to `run signets`, only 4 choices for 3 slots. The traits that boost signets and spirits seem kind of wasteful if you’re not slotting 3 spots for those, so it’s another use/don’t use set where I don’t have a lot of options.
It was too work intensive for the Devs to maintain skill balance. Yep that was the reason given. I was like “Seriously?” If my development team admitted that and wanted to dumb the game down there would have been alot of job openings. They may as well have told me, “We can’t do the job sorry..”
I’m waiting for them to announce console versions of Gw2. I’m used to MMO’s that require a lot more thought and planning.
What an absolutely massive over-simplification of their design decisions….thanks for sharing your insight into building an MMO…what’s the name of yours again?
We go out in the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
The main problem I have with either game (GW1, GW2) is they are or became nothing more than an avatar driven chat program. Each day I see the same names in the same cities. They stand around talking until dinner, then come back after, and talk until thier shows come on. While this in itself is not a problem and will happen anytime people are found in groups, when new players ask for help.. crickets. So Anet dumbs down the game. In GW1 we didn’t need help, we could get henchman and/or heroes (npc that travelled with you, fought for you, healed you etc..). Now to befair GW1 was NOT an MMORPG. It was/is 100% instanced. There is no openworld. When my group left a camp or city, if you weren’t grouped with me, you didn’t exist, you couldn’t come to my aid unless I started over, and returned to camp.
That said is probably why Anet is learning as they go. They haven’t any real experience with open world (unless they hire some new teams with experience). So many game mechanics in GW2 seem like GW1 in that they require a small group, etc.. but they are facing a raid like setting. I think they are realizing many of the features they offer, that seem innovative, aren’t used by established games because they are too problematic. So again Anet dumbs down the game. Case in point, the new LS launched and an hour or so later, people are done. And back playing something else. No profit, no renewed enthusiasm, just a momentary cure for boredom. How can they continue like this?
(edited by Evon Skyfyre.9673)
It was too work intensive for the Devs to maintain skill balance. Yep that was the reason given. I was like “Seriously?” If my development team admitted that and wanted to dumb the game down there would have been alot of job openings. They may as well have told me, “We can’t do the job sorry..”
I’m waiting for them to announce console versions of Gw2. I’m used to MMO’s that require a lot more thought and planning.
What an absolutely massive over-simplification of their design decisions….thanks for sharing your insight into building an MMO…what’s the name of yours again?
Wow, swtor, etc they all face the same challenges. Even the original founder of Anet ( Jeff Strain) was from Wow. In any job, either you’re up to the task or not. If not, admit it and ask for help. It’s the first sign of wisdom. I haven’t written gaming code, but I’ve tested them and watched them evolve as a beta tester longer than I care to admit. So that gives me a bit of room to critque a game.
Added:
In closing, players voicing their concerns and complaints can only help. Like Chef Ramsay says “I don’t give a …. about compliments and people blowing smoke up my …, I only want to hear the complaints”
(edited by Evon Skyfyre.9673)
it’s really simple, if i can’t choose the skills on my weapon then i question what ppl talk about with builds.
i never use a scepter on any prof, they just suck and the same is for the mace.
if i could change the skills then i might use them more, i would remove the lame defend skill on the mace and replace it for a pierce throw.in GW1 i can do that at any time, in GW2 we are stuck with lame skills no one uses unless for fun.
every time i see a guardian they always use the GS, it becomes quite tiring to see the same.
and why do you think that is, it’s not because of choice but rather lack of.Right because in Guild Wars 1 everyone used quick shot.
oh wow, so because one skill isn’t use you think that’s a good argument against a whole weapon not being used, a champ move…..-_-
No, I pulled one skill as an example off the top of my head, because I remembered it’s name. I remember having dozens and dozens of skills I didn’t find useful.
My main was Monk.
In PvP – WoH/RC/LS/PaH/SoR/ZB/Smiter…etc
In PvE – HB/UA/WoH/RoJ/55hp/600hp/ …etcAnd I only named the meta builds. Mo/A (Assassin’s Promise) wasn’t even considered meta, but it worked extremely great – (Basic principle, spam all your skills and cast AP for instant recharge of all skills).
No Build Diversity? Get real.
A handful of builds over six years. You’re not taking time into account. I’m positive 600 monks appeared way after some other builds and some builds were far less viable by the time they appeared. There was an evolution.
55 monks eventually became just farming builds and pretty much the place people used them was outside Bergen Hotsprings. They weren’t a build that people used to play the game. They were a build people used to farm in one specific spot.
But I wouldn’t take kitten monk build into most dungeons.
If you want to talk about builds that won’t work in harder content or anywhere, Guild Wars 2 has plenty of them.
Since when is farming not a part of playing the game? You do it in the game, it’s part of playing the game for those of us that like farming.
I am confused the way you say
55 monks eventually became just farming builds and pretty much the place people used them was outside Bergen Hotsprings. They weren’t a build that people used to play the game. They were a build people used to farm in one specific spot.
Are you saying that even for those of us that enjoy farming, and that enjoy using the 55 monk build, somehow the fact that it’s farming, even if it’s only one location, somehow we are not playing the game? what are we play8ing then? It Looked to me Like I was Logged into Guild Wars, and I was playing a Guild Wars profession…. and killing Guild Wars mobs… to collect Guild Wars Loot.
What game was i playing?
Nope. But you can make farming builds in Guild Wars 2 also. No one talks about them but they’re out there. However, what I’m saying is that’s a build that’s not very useful and hasn’t been for years but you list it. If I listed every build I’ve used to do a specific thing in Guild Wars 2 over the last two years, the list would be quite long.
You didn’t run all those builds at the same time or during the same periods of time. If you check the builds in Guild Wars 2 that were being used a year ago and check the builds that are being used now, you’ll find there are quite a few differences. The same was true in Guild Wars 1. The same builds weren’t prevalent or used at the same time. Only the most efficient builds were.
Which means there was diversity and there wasn’t diversity.
I use a ton of different builds in Guild Wars 2, because I don’t really care much about the meta. This game in many was is better for me, because the meta really doesn’t come into play nearly as much.
Many here are swearing the game is diverse and has so much depth. Besides GW1, what other mmo’s have they played? Seriously played. Have they ever done a dungeon crawl that took hours to complete, or had lockouts so you could take several days to complete it? Those are hard core games, where skills require thought, and combinations, etc are important. Where certain builds are crucial. In comparison, GW2 is an extremely casual game, and that is fine. I just find it interesting how players new to mmo’s think this game is more than it is.
(edited by Evon Skyfyre.9673)
6/6/2/0/0 Mace Shield Guardian with X Y Z W Q Utilities.
0/6/6/2/0 Mace Shield Guardian with X Y Z W Q Utilities.
0/0/6/6/2 Mace Shield Guardian with X Y Z W Q Utilities.
2/0/0/6/6 Mace Shield Guardian with X Y Z W Q Utilities.
6/2/0/0/6 Mace Shield Guardian with X Y Z W Q Utilities.
5 builds right here, right!? 5 Unique and different builds that offer distinctively different game play. Right? Is this build diversity? Is this what it means in this game?
My Mace now deals 5% more damage and gives me 250 more healing! Now I’ll play entirely differently.
http://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/PvX_wiki
http://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/Special:PrefixIndex/Build:E/
It’s very doubtful a GW2 Elementalist can offer this much diversity.
Right because in Guild Wars 1 everyone used quick shot.
You mean because they could choose what attack skills to load on their bar ? Part of diversity is having options to not take the same skills that everyone else does. I have used Quickshot and have hundreds of builds for my main character in GW1.
I remember in gw1 as a necro, using barbed signet to start the mob bleeding, casting enfeebling blood to reduce their outgoing damage by 60% if bleeding and spread poison I think, and finishing with rotting flesh to spread disease. By then they had about -4 degen, and their health was falling fast. Or they one shotted our group. There are no combos in gw2 like this, and there won’t be either. That type of combo required thought to realise and create, and timing and a good group of players to execute. All while avoiding attacks that would interupt and delay casting. My mesmer could make a mob stutter with interupts and degens as cc. My ele would hit glyph of sacrifice to reduce casting time on next spell, meteor shower to knock down and interupt a mob and firestorm to dps. Hence being called a nuker. If you missed a skill or were interupted your group wiped.
(edited by Evon Skyfyre.9673)
6/6/2/0/0 Mace Shield Guardian with X Y Z W Q Utilities.
0/6/6/2/0 Mace Shield Guardian with X Y Z W Q Utilities.
0/0/6/6/2 Mace Shield Guardian with X Y Z W Q Utilities.
2/0/0/6/6 Mace Shield Guardian with X Y Z W Q Utilities.
6/2/0/0/6 Mace Shield Guardian with X Y Z W Q Utilities.5 builds right here, right!? 5 Unique and different builds that offer distinctively different game play. Right? Is this build diversity? Is this what it means in this game?
My Mace now deals 5% more damage and gives me 250 more healing! Now I’ll play entirely differently.
Some classes are a little worse about it than others, but Engineer is great for build diversity. Of my friends that play this game, 3 of us are engineers. All 3 play completely different builds. I play a dual pistol turreteer, another plays a flamethrower gadget engie and the third plays a rifle + grenades/bombs elixir engie.
Sitting behind the keyboard on each of our engineers is vastly different. Beyond that you could go pure elixir, pure gadgets, there are a couple of other hobosacks… er I mean, kits you could run, etc.
Some classes are pretty homogeneous, but Engineers at least give a few options.
In the past, I use to believe that GW2 skills were going to be something similar to how GW1 worked, and for those who have played the original series would know what I mean. There were multiple builds and usually more than one way for every class to be played in game. But as I played through the GW2 betas that quickly changed.
I am bothered to see now how some classes have more or less builds than others. And even with there being another build, it usually only includes swapping out a few utilities while maintaining the same 5 skills from your weapon. Not only that, some classes have mechanics which keep them from even being played at their max potential or at all in certain game modes. (Necro’s and Rangers).
So to start the conversation, How did we go from creating almost endless combos of builds in GW1 to being pigeon hold into certain builds to fit the meta in GW2? Is there any chance that things will improve or only get worse?
/Discuss
Guild Wars 1 group play also pigeon holed you into a build that was the meta.
That was always the case – not sure what you remember about the game.
Also – the lack of build diversity comes from the reduced number of skills and skill being tied into weapons.
This was done in an effort to make the game easier and more accessible to casual players that don’t have the time and resources to read up, do research and inform themselves in order to make a decent build by themselves.
In Guild Wars 2 – with the skills bound to a weapon they can ensure even the worst player is still somewhat viable.
Long story short: it’s a full proof system designed to keep people from being really terrible.
In GW1 if you wanted you could make * a totally unviable build that didn’t work*.
In GW2 that option has disappeared – and with it a lot of variety and customization.
If here they fall they shall live on when ever you cry “For Ascalon!”
Many people are focusing on " The meta" or " Optimal builds". The issue for me is… what if I want build divercity that doesn’t follow the garden path of those that Theorycrafted before me?
Some say " Gw2, has x number of “optimal” builds and Guild Wars has y number of “optimal” builds, and since they are close…they are each as diverse."
Some say " Guild Wars made it so it was too easy to make sub-par builds"
They do have points. The issue for me is, I don’t hunt down "optimal " builds. I Like to Theorycraft. I enjoy playing builds that are fun. Or Builds that focus on a particular style of gameplay.
Guild Wars allowed me to do that, since Guild Wars gave me tools that if i searched I would find weird and unique synergies between 2 or 3 skills.
Can you do that in Gw2? I am sure you can. Can you do it as well as in Guild Wars? Many may debate that they can. But If you have an 8 color box of crayons….. and a 64 color box of crayons… one gives yoiu more divercity than the other….even if 16 of the 64 are colors YOU might not touch with a 10 foot pole…it’s always best to be given the option to select your palette for yourself.
Guild Wars had more colors.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
(edited by Nerelith.7360)
Many here are swearing the game is diverse and has so much depth. Besides GW1, what other mmo’s have they played? Seriously played. Have they ever done a dungeon crawl that took hours to complete, or had lockouts so you could take several days to complete it? Those are hard core games, where skills require thought, and combinations, etc are important. Where certain builds are crucial. In comparison, GW2 is an extremely casual game, and that is fine. I just find it interesting how players new to mmo’s think this game is more than it is.
Raids in most games are artificially hard based on the fact that you don’t have the gear requirement to complete them right away. It’s just a numbers game.
I played Rift. I had three stupid buttons I hit, because all my useful skills were macroed onto three keys. The content that came out was jumping through hoops complex. The only thing complex about it was getting people to be in the same page. The actual content wasn’t that hard.
The fact is, if you had less than a certain amount of focus as a spell caster, you couldn’t do damage to the creatures at all. You needed the gear to up your focus. There was zero skill in it. It was about perservering until enough gear dropped with enough focus so you could damage stuff.
That’s not depth, and that’s not fun for me. This game has more depth than that. Not depth in being a trained monkey repeating the same thing over and over till you could do it in your sleep.
Raids and dungeons in other games are one of the reasons I was looking forward to Guild Wars 2. They give the illusion of complexity when in reality, it’s just a giant con.
Many people are focusing on " The meta" or " Optimal builds". The issue for me is… what if I want build divercity that doesn’t follow the garden path of those that Theorycrafted before me?
Some say " Gw2, has x number of “optimal” builds and Guild Wars has y number of “optimal” builds, and since they are close…they are each as diverse."
Some say " Guild Wars made it so it was too easy to make sub-par builds"
They do have points. The issue for me is, I don’t hunt down "optimal " builds. I Like to Theorycraft. I enjoy playing builds that are fun. Or Builds that focus on a particular style of gameplay.
Guild Wars allowed me to do that, since Guild Wars gave me tools that if i searched I would find weird and unique synergies between 2 or 3 skills.
Can you do that in Gw2? I am sure you can. Can you do it as well as in Guild Wars? Many may debate that they can. But If you have an 8 color box of crayons….. and a 64 color box of crayons… one gives yoiu more divercity than the other….even if 16 of the 64 are colors YOU might not touch with a 10 foot pole…it’s always best to be given the option to select your palette for yourself.
Guild Wars had more colors.
Yep Guild Wars did have more skills. And for a guy who likes and centers around Build Wars, it was definitely a superior game.
I think you’ll find that it was less popular than it would have been because of that focus. Too hard for too many people.
I’m like you. I loved the building aspect of that game. But that was the ENTIRE game. It was linear. It was pathed. You couldn’t step over a log you had to turn around and go back. The entire game was the builds.
Because that was the focus of the game, that was what you got.
This game doesn’t have as much build diversity as that game. And if that’s mostly what you care about, you won’t like this game as much.
Guild Wars 2 has a different focus…intentionally.
Many people are focusing on " The meta" or " Optimal builds". The issue for me is… what if I want build divercity that doesn’t follow the garden path of those that Theorycrafted before me?
Some say " Gw2, has x number of “optimal” builds and Guild Wars has y number of “optimal” builds, and since they are close…they are each as diverse."
Some say " Guild Wars made it so it was too easy to make sub-par builds"
They do have points. The issue for me is, I don’t hunt down "optimal " builds. I Like to Theorycraft. I enjoy playing builds that are fun. Or Builds that focus on a particular style of gameplay.
Guild Wars allowed me to do that, since Guild Wars gave me tools that if i searched I would find weird and unique synergies between 2 or 3 skills.
Can you do that in Gw2? I am sure you can. Can you do it as well as in Guild Wars? Many may debate that they can. But If you have an 8 color box of crayons….. and a 64 color box of crayons… one gives yoiu more divercity than the other….even if 16 of the 64 are colors YOU might not touch with a 10 foot pole…it’s always best to be given the option to select your palette for yourself.
Guild Wars had more colors.
Yep Guild Wars did have more skills. And for a guy who likes and centers around Build Wars, it was definitely a superior game.
I think you’ll find that it was less popular than it would have been because of that focus. Too hard for too many people.
I’m like you. I loved the building aspect of that game. But that was the ENTIRE game. It was linear. It was pathed. You couldn’t step over a log you had to turn around and go back. The entire game was the builds.
Because that was the focus of the game, that was what you got.
This game doesn’t have as much build diversity as that game. And if that’s mostly what you care about, you won’t like this game as much.
Guild Wars 2 has a different focus…intentionally.
The problem is… Guild Wars is still around, and there are plenty of people that play it, I among them. Gw2 seems to be petering out.
Now you can say that Gw2 has a different focus …intentionally, and that is clear.
That is not the issue, the issue is… that many players feel the game took a wrong turn.
Many will say " this is not the game for you." And maybe they may be right. But Anet has shown that they are not above changing direction. The way they now have players opening up traits by completing content shows they are taking a page from Guild Wars playbook.
It may be the execution may be off, but if i remember something about Anet it is, they do not have a problem saying to themselves." Maybe we can do this in a new way, a better way."
So is the game as it is, the game I might wish it to be? No. But does that means I have given up that Anet may bring some of what made Guild wars great to this game?
I’m still here.
Lastly. I disagree that Guild Wars would have been a better game by making the game simpler. I feel that it appealed to players that liked playing Build wars, and have no problem playing Build wars year after year after year. Log into Build Wars sometime, you’ll see plenty of people still playing with their builds, their heroes builds, and their mercenary’s builds.
You can argue that it would appeal to more casual gamers. But is that always a good thing? It makes the game simpler. But is that always the right way to go?
" If it is more casual friendly it will be more popular" is not always true. Sometimes challenge keeps and retains players. Make it too casual friendly, and it becomes shallow. And you retain less players than if you catered to a Little more Hardcore.
This is Not Black and white. There are not " Super – casuals" and “super-hardcore.” turning to one doesn’t always mean abandoning the other. All of us fall somewhere in the middle.
So to answer your question….No. I do Not think that simplifying Guild wars so it would have been more casual friendly would have made it better, or even more popular.
The mind is its own place and in itself, can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
Many people are focusing on " The meta" or " Optimal builds". The issue for me is… what if I want build divercity that doesn’t follow the garden path of those that Theorycrafted before me?
Some say " Gw2, has x number of “optimal” builds and Guild Wars has y number of “optimal” builds, and since they are close…they are each as diverse."
Some say " Guild Wars made it so it was too easy to make sub-par builds"
They do have points. The issue for me is, I don’t hunt down "optimal " builds. I Like to Theorycraft. I enjoy playing builds that are fun. Or Builds that focus on a particular style of gameplay.
Guild Wars allowed me to do that, since Guild Wars gave me tools that if i searched I would find weird and unique synergies between 2 or 3 skills.
Can you do that in Gw2? I am sure you can. Can you do it as well as in Guild Wars? Many may debate that they can. But If you have an 8 color box of crayons….. and a 64 color box of crayons… one gives yoiu more divercity than the other….even if 16 of the 64 are colors YOU might not touch with a 10 foot pole…it’s always best to be given the option to select your palette for yourself.
Guild Wars had more colors.
Yep Guild Wars did have more skills. And for a guy who likes and centers around Build Wars, it was definitely a superior game.
I think you’ll find that it was less popular than it would have been because of that focus. Too hard for too many people.
I’m like you. I loved the building aspect of that game. But that was the ENTIRE game. It was linear. It was pathed. You couldn’t step over a log you had to turn around and go back. The entire game was the builds.
Because that was the focus of the game, that was what you got.
This game doesn’t have as much build diversity as that game. And if that’s mostly what you care about, you won’t like this game as much.
Guild Wars 2 has a different focus…intentionally.
The problem is… Guild Wars is still around, and there are plenty of people that play it, I among them. Gw2 seems to be petering out.
Now you can say that Gw2 has a different focus …intentionally, and that is clear.
That is not the issue, the issue is… that many players feel the game took a wrong turn.
Many will say " this is not the game for you." And maybe they may be right. But Anet has shown that they are not above changing direction. The way they now have players opening up traits by completing content shows they are taking a page from Guild Wars playbook.It may be the execution may be off, but if i remember something about Anet it is, they do not have a problem saying to themselves." Maybe we can do this in a new way, a better way."
So is the game as it is, the game I might wish it to be? No. But does that means I have given up that Anet may bring some of what made Guild wars great to this game?
I’m still here.
Lastly. I disagree that Guild Wars would have been a better game by making the game simpler. I feel that it appealed to players that liked playing Build wars, and have no problem playing Build wars year after year after year. Log into Build Wars sometime, you’ll see plenty of people still playing with their builds, their heroes builds, and their mercenary’s builds.
You can argue that it would appeal to more casual gamers. But is that always a good thing? It makes the game simpler. But is that always the right way to go?
" If it is more casual friendly it will be more popular" is not always true. Sometimes challenge keeps and retains players. Make it too casual friendly, and it becomes shallow. And you retain less players than if you catered to a Little more Hardcore.
This is Not Black and white. There are not " Super – casuals" and “super-hardcore.” turning to one doesn’t always mean abandoning the other. All of us fall somewhere in the middle.
So to answer your question….No. I do Not think that simplifying Guild wars so it would have been more casual friendly would have made it better, or even more popular.
Well said, and let me add, guild wars must still be a viable revenue stream or it would have ended. My one fear is rather than admit they were wrong and guild wars 2 should be more like guild wars 1, they will close guild wars 1, in hopes of forcing players to play gw2.
Many here are swearing the game is diverse and has so much depth. Besides GW1, what other mmo’s have they played? Seriously played. Have they ever done a dungeon crawl that took hours to complete, or had lockouts so you could take several days to complete it? Those are hard core games, where skills require thought, and combinations, etc are important. Where certain builds are crucial. In comparison, GW2 is an extremely casual game, and that is fine. I just find it interesting how players new to mmo’s think this game is more than it is.
Raids in most games are artificially hard based on the fact that you don’t have the gear requirement to complete them right away. It’s just a numbers game.
I played Rift. I had three stupid buttons I hit, because all my useful skills were macroed onto three keys. The content that came out was jumping through hoops complex. The only thing complex about it was getting people to be in the same page. The actual content wasn’t that hard.
The fact is, if you had less than a certain amount of focus as a spell caster, you couldn’t do damage to the creatures at all. You needed the gear to up your focus. There was zero skill in it. It was about perservering until enough gear dropped with enough focus so you could damage stuff.
That’s not depth, and that’s not fun for me. This game has more depth than that. Not depth in being a trained monkey repeating the same thing over and over till you could do it in your sleep.
Raids and dungeons in other games are one of the reasons I was looking forward to Guild Wars 2. They give the illusion of complexity when in reality, it’s just a giant con.
Rift? Lol
Many here are swearing the game is diverse and has so much depth. Besides GW1, what other mmo’s have they played? Seriously played. Have they ever done a dungeon crawl that took hours to complete, or had lockouts so you could take several days to complete it? Those are hard core games, where skills require thought, and combinations, etc are important. Where certain builds are crucial. In comparison, GW2 is an extremely casual game, and that is fine. I just find it interesting how players new to mmo’s think this game is more than it is.
Raids in most games are artificially hard based on the fact that you don’t have the gear requirement to complete them right away. It’s just a numbers game.
I played Rift. I had three stupid buttons I hit, because all my useful skills were macroed onto three keys. The content that came out was jumping through hoops complex. The only thing complex about it was getting people to be in the same page. The actual content wasn’t that hard.
The fact is, if you had less than a certain amount of focus as a spell caster, you couldn’t do damage to the creatures at all. You needed the gear to up your focus. There was zero skill in it. It was about perservering until enough gear dropped with enough focus so you could damage stuff.
That’s not depth, and that’s not fun for me. This game has more depth than that. Not depth in being a trained monkey repeating the same thing over and over till you could do it in your sleep.
Raids and dungeons in other games are one of the reasons I was looking forward to Guild Wars 2. They give the illusion of complexity when in reality, it’s just a giant con.
Rift? Lol
I’ve also played Lotro, DDO, WoW, Eve, Perfect World, TSW and a few others. I picked the first example I can think of. Nice try.
Many people are focusing on " The meta" or " Optimal builds". The issue for me is… what if I want build divercity that doesn’t follow the garden path of those that Theorycrafted before me?
Some say " Gw2, has x number of “optimal” builds and Guild Wars has y number of “optimal” builds, and since they are close…they are each as diverse."
Some say " Guild Wars made it so it was too easy to make sub-par builds"
They do have points. The issue for me is, I don’t hunt down "optimal " builds. I Like to Theorycraft. I enjoy playing builds that are fun. Or Builds that focus on a particular style of gameplay.
Guild Wars allowed me to do that, since Guild Wars gave me tools that if i searched I would find weird and unique synergies between 2 or 3 skills.
Can you do that in Gw2? I am sure you can. Can you do it as well as in Guild Wars? Many may debate that they can. But If you have an 8 color box of crayons….. and a 64 color box of crayons… one gives yoiu more divercity than the other….even if 16 of the 64 are colors YOU might not touch with a 10 foot pole…it’s always best to be given the option to select your palette for yourself.
Guild Wars had more colors.
Yep Guild Wars did have more skills. And for a guy who likes and centers around Build Wars, it was definitely a superior game.
I think you’ll find that it was less popular than it would have been because of that focus. Too hard for too many people.
I’m like you. I loved the building aspect of that game. But that was the ENTIRE game. It was linear. It was pathed. You couldn’t step over a log you had to turn around and go back. The entire game was the builds.
Because that was the focus of the game, that was what you got.
This game doesn’t have as much build diversity as that game. And if that’s mostly what you care about, you won’t like this game as much.
Guild Wars 2 has a different focus…intentionally.
The problem is… Guild Wars is still around, and there are plenty of people that play it, I among them. Gw2 seems to be petering out.
Now you can say that Gw2 has a different focus …intentionally, and that is clear.
That is not the issue, the issue is… that many players feel the game took a wrong turn.
Many will say " this is not the game for you." And maybe they may be right. But Anet has shown that they are not above changing direction. The way they now have players opening up traits by completing content shows they are taking a page from Guild Wars playbook.It may be the execution may be off, but if i remember something about Anet it is, they do not have a problem saying to themselves." Maybe we can do this in a new way, a better way."
So is the game as it is, the game I might wish it to be? No. But does that means I have given up that Anet may bring some of what made Guild wars great to this game?
I’m still here.
Lastly. I disagree that Guild Wars would have been a better game by making the game simpler. I feel that it appealed to players that liked playing Build wars, and have no problem playing Build wars year after year after year. Log into Build Wars sometime, you’ll see plenty of people still playing with their builds, their heroes builds, and their mercenary’s builds.
You can argue that it would appeal to more casual gamers. But is that always a good thing? It makes the game simpler. But is that always the right way to go?
" If it is more casual friendly it will be more popular" is not always true. Sometimes challenge keeps and retains players. Make it too casual friendly, and it becomes shallow. And you retain less players than if you catered to a Little more Hardcore.
This is Not Black and white. There are not " Super – casuals" and “super-hardcore.” turning to one doesn’t always mean abandoning the other. All of us fall somewhere in the middle.
So to answer your question….No. I do Not think that simplifying Guild wars so it would have been more casual friendly would have made it better, or even more popular.
What evidence do you have that Guild Wars 2 is “petering out” as you put it? Because I don’t think that’s the case. While Raptr isn’t all players it gives and has always given a pretty decent indication of what’s popular. Guild Wars 2 remains in the top 20. In June it was back above ESO again, even though ESO is only a couple of months old. There are precisely 3 MMOs ahead of it. One of them, Wildstar launched this month. WoW is a juggernaut of course, and FF and Guild Wars 2 are almost neck and neck, before season 2 kicked off. I expect Guild Wars 2 to move up that list next month.
I’m not sure what you think petered out means in a 2 year old game, but it seems to me that Guild Wars 2 is doing quite well.
Build diversity in GW2 can be accomplished through traits, and even the trait-unlocking system is reminiscent.
However, traits themselves would need a huge revamp to truly feel diverse. For the most part, build diversity requires traits to actually change the way a character plays.
Compare Static Discharge (shoot out static bolt when using tool belt) to Air Training (10% more damage while attuned to air). The former actually changes how skills work and how they are used, with entire Engineer builds revolving around that trait, while Air Training is just a flat 10% dmg boost. Obviously the latter is quite boring not very diverse. Quite the contrary, it creates a very negative environment where characters are pressured to use this trait or not use air magic at all!
Moving forward, I would actually like ArenaNet to completely eliminate most traits which give a flat damage boost, and instead work more things like Static Discharge into the game.