Guild Wars 2

chemiclord.3978:

I THINK what he was trying to get at is that if you compared the “meta” that the community demanded, that GW1’s added diversity really only came through by having healer and tank roles.

IF that’s what he was trying to say, I don’t entirely agree. There WAS more viable builds in GW1, even if you wanted to compare solely DPS meta. Not THAT many more (you’re probably talking 3 or 4 per class in GW1 as opposed to 1 or 2 in GW2), but there was more.

But at the same time, it does seem like a few people in this thread are comparing ALL the potential builds you COULD roll with in GW1 (no matter how ineffective they might be), and comparing them solely to the accepted meta in GW2 (ignoring that you could run several less effective builds and gear if you wanted to in this game as well).

That seems a little bit of apples to oranges, but it really doesn’t change the overall point. There WAS more diversity in GW1… the argument seems to focus on a matter of degree.

And you would be wrong. I am simply comparing viable builds In Guild Wars to viable builds in Gw2. And excluding tank, and healer builds from Guild wars, that knows how to do tank, and healing, simply because gw2’s meta doesn’t have tank, and healer builds is really Not quite fair to Guild Wars.

MY position is, that if you look at all the viable builds in Guild Wars… including tank, and Healer builds, and compare them to all viable Gw2 builds. ( is it Guild Wars’ fault that gw2 cannot do tank, and healer by game design?) then Guild Wars still has more build Diversity.

My second point is, that the build diversity in Guild Wars changes How the player actually plays his character. There is Not Just diversity in what skills you take, what sub-class you take, what elites you take…How you trait your character 9 trait lines vs 5. The fact that those trait lines REALLY change how your skills work…unlike gw2. " when you steal you get vigor…..(yawn).

ALL these things mean that when you change out 2 or 3 skills On your loadout you drastically change How you play your character.

The situational nature of most of Guild Wars’ skills meand you needed a dynamic build set up that changed based on the situation.

Does Gw2 have this?,….Not as much. Therefore it’s not as diverse.

Guild Wars is Three dimensional chess. Gw2 is Tic-tac-toe.

Some people don’t like chess. Some people do.

Personally, I still think that trying to compare GW1 build diversity to GW2 is a pointless exercise. What I am hearing is that some players want more skills that change the way they play GW2 and increase build diversity within GW2. That I feel is a reasonable request, one that has not been ignored by the developers but is taking a god-awful long time for a bunch of reasons. This next balance patch may not even show up for another 2 months. Even so, comparing the build diversity within GW1 to that of GW2 is completely ignoring the fact that they are completely different in design with different challenges. You simply can’t clone the spirit and ideals of GW1 skill design onto GW2, which seems to be the foundation of this comparison. GW2 moved away from GW1 skill design intentionally for a number of reasons we have discussed and likely others we have not, and with that came a new set of challenges and conceptual problems. Few if any of the problems plaguing GW2 are relevant to the challenges GW1 had with balance and diversity. Anet designed a new game with jumping, dodging and more active combat mechanics that were advertised from the start. You don’t look to the game that had none of these things if you want to make the game that does have them work. I will agree that the issues that GW2 has will cause stagnation and lead GW2 into mediocrity if not overcome through ingenuity on the part of the developers and through creative player input.

Let’s talk about this oversimplified combat system that is point of contention here. The straight DPS meta (with current control/support options) that seems to be pointed to as a key flaw in combat is actually heralded by some players, I’m looking at you “dungeon community”, as not just “THE WAY” to play GW2 PVE but fun as well. There are reasons why its fun that I agree with but when other players actually attempt to offer suggestions on shifting the meta from straight damage builds or increasing the viability of other builds, there is heavy push-back from the community for fear of losing what gives GW2 combat a unique sense of action. When Anet pushed the Ferocity change as a first step in moving away from “killing things faster” as being the most effective method of support, a concept understood mostly by the dungeon speed run community, players vocally pushed back at that concept as well. Anet can’t fix these issues by simply adding more skills in the same manner GW1 did, and the environment in which these skills exist is complex enough that there is no single solution that will be heralded by all players as the correct way to do it.

I don’t want to diminish the accomplishments of Anet in their efforts to balance GW1 and create a fun game that challenged players on a number of levels. I enjoyed it for many years. At the same time, I feel like it’s time for players to recognize that we can’t make GW2 into GW1.5 but we can make it better.

We can’t do jack kitten. 33 pages and counting on the trait page and nada.

no, we can’t offer anything to this game. Not until there is a change in leadership.

You’ll never be able to do more than jack kitten unless you’re hired by the company. That’ll be true no matter WHO is in charge. They make the game, not you.

Substance E.4852:

Vayne.8563:

Take away the builds from Guild Wars 1 and what do you have? I play Guild Wars 2 worrying a whole lot less about builds and it gives me a freedom I like. It’s a different kind of game.

Having that kind of build variety here would kill a lot of the freedom. It certainly did in Guild Wars 1.

lulwut? GW2 is just as much about builds as GW1. No one wins spvp tournaments by slap dashing together random traits and utilities. They win by using very specific combos. The same goes for pve speedclears and wvw zerg fights. You think anyone is going to win with a team of zerker axe rangers in spvp or a wvw zerg that doesn’t use a hammer train?

Even UW/FoE could be beaten with random pug builds if you didn’t care about clearing it any time soon or with DP under 45%. The only stuff in GW1 that absolutely needed specific builds/team comp to do is DoA and GvG/HoH.

The only difference in the two is GW1 was about giving people tons of ways (but only couple good ones) to play 1-2 roles per class where GW2 gives you the option of playing virtually every possible role per class but only 1-2 ways to maximize that classes ability.

They both give the illusion of choice but revolve around a small pool of “correct” choices.

PvP is this game represents a tiny tiny percentage of the game. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.

WvW is won, often, by strength of numbers. Not builds. Numbers. Something that never and couldn’t have happened in Guild Wars 1.

Any dungeon can be run with almost any group, if not any build. But even though I’ve seen zerker groups here, I’ve never been required to run iway, or any of the other flavor of the month builds to get into UW and in Guild Wars 1, it was very hard for very long periods of time to get any group together if you weren’t the piece of the puzzle they needed. That was down to the game being build centric.

A lot of Guild Wars 2 is about knowing when to dogdge. We run dungeons with people all the time was all sorts of builds. We do just fine.

I’d love to see people do that with Duncan Black in Guild Wars 1. Without specifically taking swap that was a nightmare.

I agree. The elementalist Ward Against Melee and mesmer imagined burden were two of my favorites. I don’t see why that couldn’t have been brought over.

chemiclord.3978:

You’ll never be able to do more than jack kitten unless you’re hired by the company. That’ll be true no matter WHO is in charge. They make the game, not you.

Exactly. The thing to ask yourself is… “Do I wish to reward the choices the devs have made?”

If you do then Play anyway you wish… have fun.

If you don’t no one is saying you shouldn’t play. See if this game had a monthly sub, the only options are ." to pay to play, or not to pay to play?"

here ince it’s driven by RMT the choice is simple….

Play and do not pay. Don’t support the RMT. Or, save up gold, and trade that for gems… then use the gems. But just stop paying cash.

Nerelith.7360:

chemiclord.3978:

You’ll never be able to do more than jack kitten unless you’re hired by the company. That’ll be true no matter WHO is in charge. They make the game, not you.

Exactly. The thing to ask yourself is… “Do I wish to reward the choices the devs have made?”

If you do then Play anyway you wish… have fun.

If you don’t no one is saying you shouldn’t play. See if this game had a monthly sub, the only options are ." to pay to play, or not to pay to play?"

here ince it’s driven by RMT the choice is simple….

Play and do not pay. Don’t support the RMT. Or, save up gold, and trade that for gems… then use the gems. But just stop paying cash.

Well, I spoke with my wallet.
I decided some time ago to stop playing, and absolutely not give them any of my money, because they don’t deserve it.
While I might poke my head in once in awhile, I see nothing remotely interesting or engaging, just the same old stale rubbish.

And I told em as much when I left. If they can’t sort their crap out, it’s not my duty to convince them, because it’s obvious their not listening unless it’s something they already agree with.

They’ve had all the time in the world to improve build diversity, but they haven’t, and show no signs of doing anymore then the most minimalist maintenance. It’s too far and few between for my money.

Yoh.8469:

Nerelith.7360:

chemiclord.3978:

You’ll never be able to do more than jack kitten unless you’re hired by the company. That’ll be true no matter WHO is in charge. They make the game, not you.

Exactly. The thing to ask yourself is… “Do I wish to reward the choices the devs have made?”

If you do then Play anyway you wish… have fun.

If you don’t no one is saying you shouldn’t play. See if this game had a monthly sub, the only options are ." to pay to play, or not to pay to play?"

here ince it’s driven by RMT the choice is simple….

Play and do not pay. Don’t support the RMT. Or, save up gold, and trade that for gems… then use the gems. But just stop paying cash.

Well, I spoke with my wallet.
I decided some time ago to stop playing, and absolutely not give them any of my money, because they don’t deserve it.
While I might poke my head in once in awhile, I see nothing remotely interesting or engaging, just the same old stale rubbish.

And I told em as much when I left. If they can’t sort their crap out, it’s not my duty to convince them, because it’s obvious their not listening unless it’s something they already agree with.

They’ve had all the time in the world to improve build diversity, but they haven’t, and show no signs of doing anymore then the most minimalist maintenance. It’s too far and few between for my money.

And for every guy that leaves like that, there’s another person who buys hundreds of black lion keys a month and complete obscures any message we might be sending.

I can’t believe I missed this thread! If you are saying GW2 is more build diverse you are nuts and I mean that in the nicest way possible. Just stating facts.

Perfect Example: Elementalist. I could Heal and Tank(at the same time no less on an ele ) UW with a Protective Bond/Ether Renewal build. When I was done I could 600 on my Ele and duo clear maps like Mirror of Lyss. I could go into RA with any number of builds like a Mind Blast nuker, a blinder, or Air Magic Burst. I could then go into Hard Mode Nahpui Quarter with a Sliver Armor build and that’s just ele oh and I forgot the HM solo Vaettir Farm that could be done with a similar Sliver Armor build, but totally a variation. I have left out myriad other builds for the class that totally worked including builds for HA, Prophecies, and EotN.

It’s not even a contest: GW1 wins hands down with build diversity and classes got full skill passes as well. Something GW2 totally ignores, sadly. Sometimes you don’t need balance patches, but shifts in meta to keep the game fresh. I wish ArenaNet was cognizant of that

Vayne.8563:

And for every guy that leaves like that, there’s another person who buys hundreds of black lion keys a month and complete obscures any message we might be sending.

Stop giving yourself excuses already.

Also, to all the naysayers, feel free to browse through the historic records of GW gvg builds (alone) to get the general idea of just how diverse the game is/was: http://gw-memorial.net

Iason Evan.3806:

I can’t believe I missed this thread! If you are saying GW2 is more build diverse you are nuts and I mean that in the nicest way possible. Just stating facts.

Perfect Example: Elementalist. I could Heal and Tank(at the same time no less on an ele ) UW with a Protective Bond/Ether Renewal build. When I was done I could 600 on my Ele and duo clear maps like Mirror of Lyss. I could go into RA with any number of builds like a Mind Blast nuker, a blinder, or Air Magic Burst. I could then go into Hard Mode Nahpui Quarter with a Sliver Armor build and that’s just ele oh and I forgot the HM solo Vaettir Farm that could be done with a similar Sliver Armor build, but totally a variation. I have left out myriad other builds for the class that totally worked including builds for HA, Prophecies, and EotN.

It’s not even a contest: GW1 wins hands down with build diversity and classes got full skill passes as well. Something GW2 totally ignores, sadly. Sometimes you don’t need balance patches, but shifts in meta to keep the game fresh. I wish ArenaNet was cognizant of that

heal and tank builds? You mean those trinity roles that don’t even exist in this game? I still wonder why these GW1 worshippers aren’t playing it, clearly GW2 must be doing something right if they’d rather not play the holy grail of video games and complain here instead.

maha.7902:

Iason Evan.3806:

I can’t believe I missed this thread! If you are saying GW2 is more build diverse you are nuts and I mean that in the nicest way possible. Just stating facts.

Perfect Example: Elementalist. I could Heal and Tank(at the same time no less on an ele ) UW with a Protective Bond/Ether Renewal build. When I was done I could 600 on my Ele and duo clear maps like Mirror of Lyss. I could go into RA with any number of builds like a Mind Blast nuker, a blinder, or Air Magic Burst. I could then go into Hard Mode Nahpui Quarter with a Sliver Armor build and that’s just ele oh and I forgot the HM solo Vaettir Farm that could be done with a similar Sliver Armor build, but totally a variation. I have left out myriad other builds for the class that totally worked including builds for HA, Prophecies, and EotN.

It’s not even a contest: GW1 wins hands down with build diversity and classes got full skill passes as well. Something GW2 totally ignores, sadly. Sometimes you don’t need balance patches, but shifts in meta to keep the game fresh. I wish ArenaNet was cognizant of that

heal and tank builds? You mean those trinity roles that don’t even exist in this game? I still wonder why these GW1 worshippers aren’t playing it, clearly GW2 must be doing something right if they’d rather not play the holy grail of video games and complain here instead.

If Arenanet hadn’t abandoned it years ago I would still be playing it. Now I play neither.

maha.7902:

heal and tank builds? You mean those trinity roles that don’t even exist in this game? I still wonder why these GW1 worshippers aren’t playing it, clearly GW2 must be doing something right if they’d rather not play the holy grail of video games and complain here instead.

Instead, what you have here is singularity in pve (damage) and some sort of a duality in pvp (bunker & damage). Seems to me you have ascended indeed … downwards, that is.

Mind that GW never had a hard concept of tanking/healing – it has a so-called ‘soft trinity’ which comprises three key concepts: frontline, midline and backline, which can be assumed by many classes and play styles, and are constantly be adjusted on the fly mid-fight according to a situation*. Moreover, mobs in GW actually posed a threat and often required specific tactics to be dealt with.

• e.g. Switching between defensive vs offensive play styles – a warrior can lineback the enemy frontline to alleviate pressure from their own team, the interrupters rupt the enemy casters to prevent them from shutting down their own midline, just to give a few instances of how differently one single team build can be played, depending on the situation, not to mention a good team will be swapping between the styles constantly according to the situation in a particular moment

In GW2 pvp you at least have this concept of ‘peeling’, and stacking support/cc for significant damage boosts or focus fire, but the pve is devoid of any kind of depth – roll damage with aoe, dodge a couple of insta-gib mob attacks, rez up whoever spammed too many dodges (or has no vig), and thats it. Or just autospam in zergs.
Much wow. Very skill.

If Arenanet hadn’t abandoned it years ago I would still be playing it. Now I play neither.

I’m pretty sure you can still play it, and enjoy all of these amazing builds.

Instead, what you have here is singularity in pve (damage) and some sort of a duality in pvp (bunker & damage). Seems to me you have ascended indeed … downwards, that is.

Seems to me you’ve completely ignored support in PvE. You know, blinds, blocks, reflects, might, fury, banners, frost spirit/empower allies/spotter, cleansing, protection. You’ve also ignored CC – stuff like interrupting major boss attacks, positioning bosses/mobs, interrupting trash mobs.

Moreover, mobs in GW actually posed a threat and often required specific tactics to be dealt with.

There are also elite mobs in GW2 that pose a threat. Ascalonian elementalists, ascalonian necromancers, basically everything in CM, Nightmare Knights in TA, the inquest elites in SE p1, icebrood wolves in COE, a lot of things in COF, pretty much every single elite in Arah.

but the pve is devoid of any kind of depth – roll damage with aoe, dodge a couple of insta-gib mob attacks, rez up whoever spammed too many dodges (or has no vig), and thats it. Or just autospam in zergs.

Sure, let’s throw as much condescending language as possible to try and make all of GW2 sound trivial. Well here’s two points:

1. The game’s dungeons have been out for two years and had almost no changes. If people didn’t faceroll them I’d be surprised.

2. Despite them being out for two years … people still don’t faceroll them. People buy Arah paths because most people are just plain bad at it. People still wipe on scaled down dungeons despite the damage being throttled up thanks to ferocity because they’re just … not good at them.

Like I said, if GW1 is such a holy grail of gaming, play it. It’s still there.

Substance E.4852:

lulwut? GW2 is just as much about builds as GW1.
No one wins spvp tournaments by slap dashing together random traits and utilities. They win by using very specific combos. The same goes for pve speedclears and wvw zerg fights. You think anyone is going to win with a team of zerker axe rangers in spvp or a wvw zerg that doesn’t use a hammer train?
Even UW/FoE could be beaten with random pug builds if you didn’t care about clearing it any time soon or with DP under 45%. The only stuff in GW1 that absolutely needed specific builds/team comp to do is DoA and GvG/HoH.
The only difference in the two is GW1 was about giving people tons of ways (but only couple good ones) to play 1-2 roles per class where GW2 gives you the option of playing virtually every possible role per class but only 1-2 ways to maximize that classes ability.

They both give the illusion of choice but revolve around a small pool of “correct” choices.

Looking through my folder of GW builds I ended up with a total of 85 builds for my paragon, all built towards a particular task in the game. On top of those 85 builds I also have 8 ‘heroways’ of different sorts, all aimed at different tasks.. Clearing UW, DoA, Mallyx.. and so forth. Each of those 8 heroways happen to contain 8 builds.. or 64 builds in total.
On top of those I also had 6 pvp builds and a couple of builds for professions other than my paragon and in the end I sit firmly at just short of 200 builds. My mesmer in gw2 haven’t changed build once. It altered its build when Anet adjusted where certain traits were located in the lines.

Oh and as for not caring about time? There were constantly builds released in gw1, you definitly had a timelimit put in place

maha.7902:

Seems to me you’ve completely ignored support in PvE. You know, blinds, blocks, reflects, might, fury, banners, frost spirit/empower allies/spotter, cleansing, protection. You’ve also ignored CC – stuff like interrupting major boss attacks, positioning bosses/mobs, interrupting trash mobs.

Except there is no need for a class in pve that would be focused on support, as any class can just dodge away or perhaps pop an immunity here and there to save their skin. Perhaps it’s slightly diff in high-level fractals, however, that content is most definitely not the norm, but more an exception to the rule of thumb.
Also, defiant > interrupts, unless you’re willing to bring enough (thus saccing damage) or have a class that can spam rupts to remove all levels of defiant first, before that one key skill comes flying towards you.

There are also elite mobs in GW2 that pose a threat. Ascalonian elementalists, ascalonian necromancers, basically everything in CM, Nightmare Knights in TA, the inquest elites in SE p1, icebrood wolves in COE, a lot of things in COF, pretty much every single elite in Arah.

I have found that ‘threat’ in GW2 most often boils down to that single attack that would insta gib you, if you hadn’t dodged. Well, if you’re undergeared, many things will pose such a threat , but that is a design issue, and not the point I was tying to make – mobs in GW played like a team,e specially in high-end zones, and players had to find ways to shutdown both their support/heals as well as their damage source, while also preventing potential rezzing.

Sure, let’s throw as much condescending language as possible to try and make all of GW2 sound trivial.

Condescending? ‘Sound’ trivial? Given your bottom two points did not really counter my the part you quoted, you could have spared yourself the trouble of replying.

1. The game’s dungeons have been out for two years and had almost no changes. If people didn’t faceroll them I’d be surprised.

So you’re saying that player experience in effect removes depth? What a funny thing to say. The issue is there was no depth to start with.

2. Despite them being out for two years … people still don’t faceroll them. People buy Arah paths because most people are just plain bad at it. People still wipe on scaled down dungeons despite the damage being throttled up thanks to ferocity because they’re just … not good at them.

Like I said, if GW1 is such a holy grail of gaming, play it. It’s still there.

I’m not talking only about dungeons here, but more about the content that is played most – general pve zones and mass events.
Still waiting for that counter argument to the part about “pve [being] devoid of any kind of depth – roll damage with aoe, dodge a couple of insta-gib mob attacks, rez up whoever spammed too many dodges (or has no vig), and thats it. Or just autospam in zergs.” Because that is EXACTLY what the game has been reduced to for the most part.

Lastly, like I said numerous times already, I AM playing GW pvp almost on a daily basis, and occasionally I also drop by in the pve land. Point being? Whether or not I (still) play the game (be it GW or GW2) has no relevance to my points, so you may have your attempt at a strawman back, tyvm.

Vayne.8563:

Yoh.8469:

Nerelith.7360:

chemiclord.3978:

You’ll never be able to do more than jack kitten unless you’re hired by the company. That’ll be true no matter WHO is in charge. They make the game, not you.

Exactly. The thing to ask yourself is… “Do I wish to reward the choices the devs have made?”

If you do then Play anyway you wish… have fun.

If you don’t no one is saying you shouldn’t play. See if this game had a monthly sub, the only options are ." to pay to play, or not to pay to play?"

here ince it’s driven by RMT the choice is simple….

Play and do not pay. Don’t support the RMT. Or, save up gold, and trade that for gems… then use the gems. But just stop paying cash.

Well, I spoke with my wallet.
I decided some time ago to stop playing, and absolutely not give them any of my money, because they don’t deserve it.
While I might poke my head in once in awhile, I see nothing remotely interesting or engaging, just the same old stale rubbish.

And I told em as much when I left. If they can’t sort their crap out, it’s not my duty to convince them, because it’s obvious their not listening unless it’s something they already agree with.

They’ve had all the time in the world to improve build diversity, but they haven’t, and show no signs of doing anymore then the most minimalist maintenance. It’s too far and few between for my money.

And for every guy that leaves like that, there’s another person who buys hundreds of black lion keys a month and complete obscures any message we might be sending.

See this is the thing that you don’t get Vayne. It’s Not about " sending a message" or “staging a protest”.

It doesn’t matter that for each of us that doesn’t buy a Black lion key, there are 100’s that buy 100’s.

It’s about us deciding for ourselves." Is this the type of company I am going to support with MY Money?"

Just because 100’s do, doesn’t mean I have to as well. I can say " sorry, Not good enough for me to support with My cash." has Nothing to do with " staging a movement" and hoping others follow.

It’s about me asking myself. " Is this good enough for ME, to support with MY cash?"

If it is, then great, if it isn’t then the only option that make’s sense is for me, to stop financially supporting what I myself don’t feel deserves my cash.

If others feel the same, awesome. if they don’t…No skin off My nose.

I don’t need " The masses" to approve, or agree.

I am capable of making my own decisions, and living by them alone. No need for “The Hive Mind” to approve.

I think it’s unfair. Guild Wars 1 had many skills that were not fun to use. I had a lot of friends who never wanted to move away from WoW because the skills in GW1 was “boring”.

Often you could not even see any real difference in skill animations, or sounds. Many skills were near duplicates of each other in function but had some outragously small differential numberal 0.4 faster recast or 5 higher cost. Outragously little differences.

I think quality is a lot more important than just stuffing skills in there. Despite my annoyance of certain builds in GW2 sPvP and GW2 WvW, I find the game to be pretty balanced. Even Ranger which is the most laughed at profession, can do some things really well in different scenarios.

My main is a Warrior and I have found him to be just as diverse as my Warrior/Ritualist was back in the day. I can spec him for mobility with GS, I can spec him for CC with the hammer, I can do buff/support/healing with shouts, I can do stationary buffs with banners, I can do bleeds with axes and swords, I can do combos of all the above with warhorn. Even if the shield and mace is not as useful as the others, I really can’t say I can’t play my Warrior in a lot of different ways, and viable ways.
I bring the longbow in WvW, I use the GS in WvW. I run around with S/S and Axe/Warhorn in PvE. I farm with A/A, I do fractals with H/S/S.

Seriously. I am sure I technically had more options in GW1, but I only stuck to 1/3 of the skill set. A lot of the skills in GW1 was copy pasted nonsense.

Finally, it’s important to understand that MORE CHOICE, is not always better. Here is a TED talk of Malcom Gladwell talking about the paradox of choice. His argument is this – Too much choice, and we become unhappy, no choice and we become unhappy. But a few choices, so we can keep an overall over view of all the choices, are the best requirement for happiness. And I think he is right. Watch it here: http://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_on_spaghetti_sauce

In my mind, I think I understand OP, but I think he is looking at it the wrong way. It’s the way damage migration is done. It’s the way the game rewards damage, and not support. you dont get a gold star for reviving and healing and buffing. there is no pvp scoreboards who track the healing, condi removals and so on. That’s the problem. The game only encourages DAMAGE, DAMAGE DAMAGE. If it encouraged other means of helping the effort, and if the enemies needed more than just direct damage to succeed, then I think all players would use all the various builds more. Because they are in the game. There is amazing build diversity in GW2, but people dont use it.

Nerelith.7360:

…..
Engineer is lackluster, and needs to be revamped.

I find it difficult to believe you have played any amount of time (or build variation) on an Engineer if you have that opinion. Basing you opinons on other’s “experiences” or your limited ones makes it an uniformed one. Can Engineer be improved? Of course, all professions could use some “fine tuning”, but the class being “lackluster” is likely more you ‘feelings" about their play-style (that you don’t enjoy) than their actual current state in the game (and you opinion is certainly valid….for you).

If Arenanet hadn’t abandoned it years ago I would still be playing it. Now I play neither.

Moving on to publish a new game after 7 years is hardly abandoning it. If they had shut down the servers, then your “complaint” would be valid, but it simply appears that your are not playing a game you love, because of some illogical vendetta against Anet (or some other reason you don’t want to relate because it would lessen your one liner attack at Anet).

As stated above, if you love(d) GW1 so much, go play it. If this entire 8 page thread is designed to change someone at Anet’s idea of how GW2 should be “changed” to become a true GW1 “successor”, I’d say it was started about 3 or 4 years too late. Move on.

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

Yoh.8469:

Nerelith.7360:

chemiclord.3978:

You’ll never be able to do more than jack kitten unless you’re hired by the company. That’ll be true no matter WHO is in charge. They make the game, not you.

Exactly. The thing to ask yourself is… “Do I wish to reward the choices the devs have made?”

If you do then Play anyway you wish… have fun.

If you don’t no one is saying you shouldn’t play. See if this game had a monthly sub, the only options are ." to pay to play, or not to pay to play?"

here ince it’s driven by RMT the choice is simple….

Play and do not pay. Don’t support the RMT. Or, save up gold, and trade that for gems… then use the gems. But just stop paying cash.

Well, I spoke with my wallet.
I decided some time ago to stop playing, and absolutely not give them any of my money, because they don’t deserve it.
While I might poke my head in once in awhile, I see nothing remotely interesting or engaging, just the same old stale rubbish.

And I told em as much when I left. If they can’t sort their crap out, it’s not my duty to convince them, because it’s obvious their not listening unless it’s something they already agree with.

They’ve had all the time in the world to improve build diversity, but they haven’t, and show no signs of doing anymore then the most minimalist maintenance. It’s too far and few between for my money.

And for every guy that leaves like that, there’s another person who buys hundreds of black lion keys a month and complete obscures any message we might be sending.

See this is the thing that you don’t get Vayne. It’s Not about " sending a message" or “staging a protest”.

It doesn’t matter that for each of us that doesn’t buy a Black lion key, there are 100’s that buy 100’s.

It’s about us deciding for ourselves." Is this the type of company I am going to support with MY Money?"

Just because 100’s do, doesn’t mean I have to as well. I can say " sorry, Not good enough for me to support with My cash." has Nothing to do with " staging a movement" and hoping others follow.

It’s about me asking myself. " Is this good enough for ME, to support with MY cash?"

If it is, then great, if it isn’t then the only option that make’s sense is for me, to stop financially supporting what I myself don’t feel deserves my cash.

If others feel the same, awesome. if they don’t…No skin off My nose.

I don’t need " The masses" to approve, or agree.

I am capable of making my own decisions, and living by them alone. No need for “The Hive Mind” to approve.

You should look at the post I was replying to before running off on a pointless tirade. People are trying to send a message and saying so. I’m saying the message might not get through. I don’t have a problem with people not spending money in a cash shop for a game they don’t like. I’ve NEVER had a problem with that.

I just don’t think it will make the impression on Anet that some people do.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Nerelith.7360:

…..
Engineer is lackluster, and needs to be revamped.

I find it difficult to believe you have played any amount of time (or build variation) on an Engineer if you have that opinion. Basing you opinons on other’s “experiences” or your limited ones makes it an uniformed one. Can Engineer be improved? Of course, all professions could use some “fine tuning”, but the class being “lackluster” is likely more you ‘feelings" about their play-style (that you don’t enjoy) than their actual current state in the game (and you opinion is certainly valid….for you).

Ok, let me correct it.

Engineer seems lackluster for me. In My opinion, it needs to be revamped.
Better?

I wanted to like Engineer. I tried to play one 5 times, and could never take it to level 20, because I enjoyed My mesmer more.

Maybe it’s a matter of playstyle as you suggest. But just because a Class is lackluster in my opinion, doesn’t mean i cannot speak my opinion. And it doesn’t mean it’s ill informed, since the opinion is just that, a personal observation.

After trying to level an Engineer 5 times, and not being able to stay interested enough 5 separate times, I believe I am well informed enough about my own interests, and How the Engineer profession doesn’t seem to be interesting enough for me….

For me to proclaim it lackluster, for me.

Nerelith.7360:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Nerelith.7360:

…..
Engineer is lackluster, and needs to be revamped.

I find it difficult to believe you have played any amount of time (or build variation) on an Engineer if you have that opinion. Basing you opinons on other’s “experiences” or your limited ones makes it an uniformed one. Can Engineer be improved? Of course, all professions could use some “fine tuning”, but the class being “lackluster” is likely more you ‘feelings" about their play-style (that you don’t enjoy) than their actual current state in the game (and you opinion is certainly valid….for you).

Ok, let me correct it.

Engineer seems lackluster for me. In My opinion, it needs to be revamped.
Better?

I wanted to like Engineer. I tried to play one 5 times, and could never take it to level 20, because I enjoyed My mesmer more.

Maybe it’s a matter of playstyle as you suggest. But just because a Class is lackluster in my opinion, doesn’t mean i cannot speak my opinion. And it doesn’t mean it’s ill informed, since the opinion is just that, a personal observation.

After trying to level an Engineer 5 times, and not being able to stay interested enough 5 separate times, I believe I am well informed enough about my own interests, and How the Engineer profession doesn’t seem to be interesting enough for me….

For me to proclaim it lackluster, for me.

So you’re judging a profession on the 1-20 playstyle? That seems a bit premature to me.

A lot of people feel the same way when leveling mesmers.

Vayne.8563:

You should look at the post I was replying to before running off on a pointless tirade. People are trying to send a message and saying so. I’m saying the message might not get through. I don’t have a problem with people not spending money in a cash shop for a game they don’t like. I’ve NEVER had a problem with that.

I just don’t think it will make the impression on Anet that some people do.

Not a tirade.. :-) All I am saying is, that just because you feel it’s pointless to stop spending cash on a game, because you feel that they will be adecquately covered by those that keep buying is no reason to say " Oh well, you’ll be alone!"

I understand that tone of voice doesn’t carry across well. But just because I disagree with you, doesn’t make it a " pointless tirade" or any type of tirade.

I am simply saying that if I say " well, not good enough for me to spend My money." I am sharing my opinion , and saying I am backing up my opinion with concrete action… Playing when I feel like it, and not spending real world cash on the game.

Now… if everyone saw things as you do, they would just say " Oh… I’ll never make an impression by myself, may as well buy that 1000 gems with real world cash, even if i think the game could use more diversity, and the game company should include more, because I…by Myself will never make an impression alone"

All I am saying is, that isn’t the way to see things.

What I am saying is..I speaking for myself… am not spending money on Gw2. And One of the reasons is, I disagree that simplifying builds to the Point where the game seems simplistic, is not worth me supporting with My cash. * If more people also agree, and decide on their own…. that they also do not wish to support it… awesome. * but if no one else feels that way, that doesn’t mean I have to just keep paying real world cash for gems.

See Vayne. I said if no one else joins , awesome. But the fact that I..speaking just for myself… am willing to stop spending real world cash for gems, and explain why… maybe others may decide " she has a point."

I understand you are 100 % happy with where the game is, you say somethings bother you, but I know that the bother is not enough for you to change, you are content.

I was speaking more for those and to those that aren’t.

maha.7902:

Iason Evan.3806:

I can’t believe I missed this thread! If you are saying GW2 is more build diverse you are nuts and I mean that in the nicest way possible. Just stating facts.

Perfect Example: Elementalist. I could Heal and Tank(at the same time no less on an ele ) UW with a Protective Bond/Ether Renewal build. When I was done I could 600 on my Ele and duo clear maps like Mirror of Lyss. I could go into RA with any number of builds like a Mind Blast nuker, a blinder, or Air Magic Burst. I could then go into Hard Mode Nahpui Quarter with a Sliver Armor build and that’s just ele oh and I forgot the HM solo Vaettir Farm that could be done with a similar Sliver Armor build, but totally a variation. I have left out myriad other builds for the class that totally worked including builds for HA, Prophecies, and EotN.

It’s not even a contest: GW1 wins hands down with build diversity and classes got full skill passes as well. Something GW2 totally ignores, sadly. Sometimes you don’t need balance patches, but shifts in meta to keep the game fresh. I wish ArenaNet was cognizant of that

heal and tank builds? You mean those trinity roles that don’t even exist in this game? I still wonder why these GW1 worshippers aren’t playing it, clearly GW2 must be doing something right if they’d rather not play the holy grail of video games and complain here instead.

You completely missed my point. This doesn’t comment at all on what is more fun. I only commented on build diversity. If you have never used http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Protective_Bond and http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ether_Renewal on an Elementalist to Heal/Tank UW, you don’t know what I am talking about. It’s not in the pure sense of Tanking like a Guardian/Warden in LOTRO or Shadow/Guardian in SW:ToR, but in the GW1 sense of the word “tanking” that is precisely what you are doing.

If you were to look at the actual point of what I was saying you would see that I am talking about how many more build options you have in GW1 per class and I used Ele as an example because that is the topic of this thread: Build Diversity.

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

You should look at the post I was replying to before running off on a pointless tirade. People are trying to send a message and saying so. I’m saying the message might not get through. I don’t have a problem with people not spending money in a cash shop for a game they don’t like. I’ve NEVER had a problem with that.

I just don’t think it will make the impression on Anet that some people do.

Not a tirade.. :-) All I am saying is, that just because you feel it’s pointless to stop spending cash on a game, because you feel that they will be adecquately covered by those that keep buying is no reason to say " Oh well, you’ll be alone!"

I understand that tone of voice doesn’t carry across well. But just because I disagree with you, doesn’t make it a " pointless tirade" or any type of tirade.

I am simply saying that if I say " well, not good enough for me to spend My money." I am sharing my opinion , and saying I am backing up my opinion with concrete action… Playing when I feel like it, and not spending real world cash on the game.

Now… if everyone saw things as you do, they would just say " Oh… I’ll never make an impression by myself, may as well buy that 1000 gems with real world cash, even if i think the game could use more diversity, and the game company should include more, because I…by Myself will never make an impression alone"

All I am saying is, that isn’t the way to see things.

What I am saying is..I speaking for myself… am not spending money on Gw2. And One of the reasons is, I disagree that simplifying builds to the Point where the game seems simplistic, is not worth me supporting with My cash. * If more people also agree, and decide on their own…. that they also do not wish to support it… awesome. * but if no one else feels that way, that doesn’t mean I have to just keep paying real world cash for gems.

See Vayne. I said if no one else joins , awesome. But the fact that I..speaking just for myself… am willing to stop spending real world cash for gems, and explain why… maybe others may decide " she has a point."

I understand you are 100 % happy with where the game is, you say somethings bother you, but I know that the bother is not enough for you to change, you are content.

I was speaking more for those and to those that aren’t.

The tirade was 100% pointless because you were ignoring what I was saying, and ignoring the post to which I was replying. That makes it pointless.

See I don’t disagree with what you said. At all. And before you posted it, I still didn’t disagree with what you said. You’re saying “what I don’t understand”. Well that’s not true, I understand it.

The only lack of understanding here, as evidenced by your reply, is your not understanding what I was saying.

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

Brother Grimm.5176:

Nerelith.7360:

…..
Engineer is lackluster, and needs to be revamped.

I find it difficult to believe you have played any amount of time (or build variation) on an Engineer if you have that opinion. Basing you opinons on other’s “experiences” or your limited ones makes it an uniformed one. Can Engineer be improved? Of course, all professions could use some “fine tuning”, but the class being “lackluster” is likely more you ‘feelings" about their play-style (that you don’t enjoy) than their actual current state in the game (and you opinion is certainly valid….for you).

Ok, let me correct it.

Engineer seems lackluster for me. In My opinion, it needs to be revamped.
Better?

I wanted to like Engineer. I tried to play one 5 times, and could never take it to level 20, because I enjoyed My mesmer more.

Maybe it’s a matter of playstyle as you suggest. But just because a Class is lackluster in my opinion, doesn’t mean i cannot speak my opinion. And it doesn’t mean it’s ill informed, since the opinion is just that, a personal observation.

After trying to level an Engineer 5 times, and not being able to stay interested enough 5 separate times, I believe I am well informed enough about my own interests, and How the Engineer profession doesn’t seem to be interesting enough for me….

For me to proclaim it lackluster, for me.

So you’re judging a profession on the 1-20 playstyle? That seems a bit premature to me.

A lot of people feel the same way when leveling mesmers.

I am judging a profession On whether or not it is entertaining for me to continue playing it. You may feel i am being pre-mature. But I can only say what is entertaining for me.

I also understand that others may feel the same about mesmers. That is their opinion. They may prefer to play engineers instead. or elementalists. Maybe someone that feels as I do about engineers feels that way about mesmers.

if they said " mesmes are lackluster for me, I have tried to play one 5 times, and cannot get past level 20 with them, because I continue to be drawn to my engineer." I wouldn’t tell them they were being premature in their judgement.

I would accept that their tastes don’t match mine.

All I can say for myself is…that I tried an engineer 5 times, and found Myself Bored. So I stopped playing it, and finally gave up. What is it you find objectionable?

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

You should look at the post I was replying to before running off on a pointless tirade. People are trying to send a message and saying so. I’m saying the message might not get through. I don’t have a problem with people not spending money in a cash shop for a game they don’t like. I’ve NEVER had a problem with that.

I just don’t think it will make the impression on Anet that some people do.

Not a tirade.. :-) All I am saying is, that just because you feel it’s pointless to stop spending cash on a game, because you feel that they will be adecquately covered by those that keep buying is no reason to say " Oh well, you’ll be alone!"

I understand that tone of voice doesn’t carry across well. But just because I disagree with you, doesn’t make it a " pointless tirade" or any type of tirade.

I am simply saying that if I say " well, not good enough for me to spend My money." I am sharing my opinion , and saying I am backing up my opinion with concrete action… Playing when I feel like it, and not spending real world cash on the game.

Now… if everyone saw things as you do, they would just say " Oh… I’ll never make an impression by myself, may as well buy that 1000 gems with real world cash, even if i think the game could use more diversity, and the game company should include more, because I…by Myself will never make an impression alone"

All I am saying is, that isn’t the way to see things.

What I am saying is..I speaking for myself… am not spending money on Gw2. And One of the reasons is, I disagree that simplifying builds to the Point where the game seems simplistic, is not worth me supporting with My cash. * If more people also agree, and decide on their own…. that they also do not wish to support it… awesome. * but if no one else feels that way, that doesn’t mean I have to just keep paying real world cash for gems.

See Vayne. I said if no one else joins , awesome. But the fact that I..speaking just for myself… am willing to stop spending real world cash for gems, and explain why… maybe others may decide " she has a point."

I understand you are 100 % happy with where the game is, you say somethings bother you, but I know that the bother is not enough for you to change, you are content.

I was speaking more for those and to those that aren’t.

The tirade was 100% pointless because you were ignoring what I was saying, and ignoring the post to which I was replying. That makes it pointless.

See I don’t disagree with what you said. At all. And before you posted it, I still didn’t disagree with what you said. You’re saying “what I don’t understand”. Well that’s not true, I understand it.

The only lack of understanding here, as evidenced by your reply, is your not understanding what I was saying.

Label it a tirade if you must, I was simply sharing My opinion, based On what I thought about what you said.

If I was wrong to say " you misunderstand" then I am wrong, that doesn’t make My response a tirade…meaningless or otherwise.

What I was doing was sharing my opinion. If you share it awesome, if you don’t, you don’t.

That does Not mean i am not free to share it.

If you feel Nothing I say applies to your post, that’s your opinion. I Understand. You mentioned that for everyone that chooses to not purchase gems for whatever reasons, that there will be 100’s that will Just continue buying and that their " message" would not be felt.

MY reply was that that is not the point. The Point is… every person needs to ask themselves. “Are the decisions that Anet has made in game design… ( Build diversity, or lack thereof) worth me..supporting with MY Money?”

I happen to believe that even if no one else agrees with me… and even if I am the Only one to stop, that doesn’t mean i shouldn’t share my dissatisfaction on the forums, explain why I stopped buying gems with real world cash, and express that I myself have stopped buying gems with real world cash on the forums.

Maybe others decide " know what? she has a point." maybe they don’t.

Now.. Just because you disagree with me, doesn’t mean you get to label my opinion a meaningless tirade.

First of all, it is not a tirade, it is me sharing my opinion.

secondly, if it is a response to something you said. That the " message" will not be felt by Anet, because there will be 100’s that will continue buying gems. That doesn’t mean my sharing my opinion is meaningless.

it is pretty relevant to your post, since it is a response to your opinion that " Oh No..you will be alone..No one else agrees with you, and your message will be lost."

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

snip

Not a tirade.. :-) All I am saying is, that just because you feel it’s pointless to stop spending cash on a game, because you feel that they will be adecquately covered by those that keep buying is no reason to say " Oh well, you’ll be alone!"

I understand that tone of voice doesn’t carry across well. But just because I disagree with you, doesn’t make it a " pointless tirade" or any type of tirade.

I am simply saying that if I say " well, not good enough for me to spend My money." I am sharing my opinion , and saying I am backing up my opinion with concrete action… Playing when I feel like it, and not spending real world cash on the game.

Now… if everyone saw things as you do, they would just say " Oh… I’ll never make an impression by myself, may as well buy that 1000 gems with real world cash, even if i think the game could use more diversity, and the game company should include more, because I…by Myself will never make an impression alone"

All I am saying is, that isn’t the way to see things.

What I am saying is..I speaking for myself… am not spending money on Gw2. And One of the reasons is, I disagree that simplifying builds to the Point where the game seems simplistic, is not worth me supporting with My cash. * If more people also agree, and decide on their own…. that they also do not wish to support it… awesome. * but if no one else feels that way, that doesn’t mean I have to just keep paying real world cash for gems.

See Vayne. I said if no one else joins , awesome. But the fact that I..speaking just for myself… am willing to stop spending real world cash for gems, and explain why… maybe others may decide " she has a point."

I understand you are 100 % happy with where the game is, you say somethings bother you, but I know that the bother is not enough for you to change, you are content.

I was speaking more for those and to those that aren’t.

The tirade was 100% pointless because you were ignoring what I was saying, and ignoring the post to which I was replying. That makes it pointless.

See I don’t disagree with what you said. At all. And before you posted it, I still didn’t disagree with what you said. You’re saying “what I don’t understand”. Well that’s not true, I understand it.

The only lack of understanding here, as evidenced by your reply, is your not understanding what I was saying.

Label it a tirade if you must, I was simply sharing My opinion, based On what I thought about what you said.

If I was wrong to say " you misunderstand" then I am wrong, that doesn’t make My response a tirade…meaningless or otherwise.

What I was doing was sharing my opinion. If you share it awesome, if you don’t, you don’t.

That does Not mean i am not free to share it.

If you feel Nothing I say applies to your post, that’s your opinion. I Understand. You mentioned that for everyone that chooses to not purchase gems for whatever reasons, that there will be 100’s that will Just continue buying and that their " message" would not be felt.

MY reply was that that is not the point. The Point is… every person needs to ask themselves. “Are the decisions that Anet has made in game design… ( Build diversity, or lack thereof) worth me..supporting with MY Money?”

I happen to believe that even if no one else agrees with me… and even if I am the Only one to stop, that doesn’t mean i shouldn’t share my dissatisfaction on the forums, explain why I stopped buying gems with real world cash, and express that I myself have stopped buying gems with real world cash on the forums.

Maybe others decide " know what? she has a point." maybe they don’t.

Now.. Just because you disagree with me, doesn’t mean you get to label my opinion a meaningless tirade.

First of all, it is not a tirade, it is me sharing my opinion.

secondly, if it is a response to something you said. That the " message" will not be felt by Anet, because there will be 100’s that will continue buying gems. That doesn’t mean my sharing my opinion is meaningless.

it is pretty relevant to your post, since it is a response to your opinion that " Oh No..you will be alone..No one else agrees with you, and your message will be lost."

I didn’t say he’d be alone. I didn’t say no one would agree with him. And your arguments would be better if you stopped putting words into my mouth, thanks.

My argument was based on quotes in the post I quoted. I was replying to what someone said. You chose to reply to my response as if I’d said something else completely.

maha.7902:

Iason Evan.3806:

I can’t believe I missed this thread! If you are saying GW2 is more build diverse you are nuts and I mean that in the nicest way possible. Just stating facts.

Perfect Example: Elementalist. I could Heal and Tank(at the same time no less on an ele ) UW with a Protective Bond/Ether Renewal build. When I was done I could 600 on my Ele and duo clear maps like Mirror of Lyss. I could go into RA with any number of builds like a Mind Blast nuker, a blinder, or Air Magic Burst. I could then go into Hard Mode Nahpui Quarter with a Sliver Armor build and that’s just ele oh and I forgot the HM solo Vaettir Farm that could be done with a similar Sliver Armor build, but totally a variation. I have left out myriad other builds for the class that totally worked including builds for HA, Prophecies, and EotN.

It’s not even a contest: GW1 wins hands down with build diversity and classes got full skill passes as well. Something GW2 totally ignores, sadly. Sometimes you don’t need balance patches, but shifts in meta to keep the game fresh. I wish ArenaNet was cognizant of that

heal and tank builds? You mean those trinity roles that don’t even exist in this game? I still wonder why these GW1 worshippers aren’t playing it, clearly GW2 must be doing something right if they’d rather not play the holy grail of video games and complain here instead.

Who says I don’t Play Guild Wars? Who says I spend Money here?

I can only speak for myself. The world is not black and white. Just because I like Guild Wars better, doesn’t mean i hate gw2. Just because i like Guild Wars better, for it’s build diversity, doesn’t mean that I don’t wish Gw2 to improve.

At the same time, just because I play gw2, doesn’t mean it doesn’t need to improve.

That is why I…speaking for myself, while loving Guild wars for it’s build diversity, and playing Guild wars for it’s diversity, and rewarding Guild Wars fincially, am also here,… complaining about gw2 for it’s LACK. Not supporting it financially.

What you fail to get is, just because I Love Guild wars that doesn’t make me a Gw2 hater. If I hated Gw2 I’d stop playing it. I haven’t because I do Not hate it.

But that doesn’t mean I am blind to where it could improve. Or that Loving it, means keeping my mouth shut, and Just playing silently.

See I believe that people that post on the forums, even if they are being critical,…. do so because they care for gw2…it’s game design decisions, and it’s direction…. if they did Not care they would not post.

I understand you dislike seeing people post negatively about a game you enjoy.

Just accept that it’s always better for a game, when people critical of it..STAY and Play….. even as they complain, than for them to just leave.

it’s Not a Black and white situation,…Just because players critique a game, doesn’t mean they hate it, they care enough to log in and critique it.

The build diversity in GW1 is much bigger. Here are just a few builds I made.

Not to be rude, but they’re pretty terrible (for pvp).
The warrior build lacks more warrior staple skills (which, when used correctly, give warriors the edge over other frontline classes) such as bulls strike, shock, an interrupt or two of some sort, and/or more than just a single kd. You’re in effect just a dervish with extra armor and a kd (hope you have stonefist, at least), but then again, in the heydays of Warrior’s Endurance, everyone just played their warrior like a dervish anyway.

The mesmer build, on the other hand, is pve though, I reckon. It’d decent caster control in pve, but I’d prolly take a ranger hero with chocking gas, flurry and practiced stance. Easily rivals a Panic dom mes in terms of caster control. Or a Broad head arrow with epidemic. Or a Punishing Shot turret ranger. Or a water ele with maelstrom and snares. Or tease&cry of frustr dom rupter with some extra caster hate. Well yea, the options are too many to list.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Not to be rude, but they’re pretty terrible (for pvp).
The warrior build lacks more warrior staple skills (which, when used correctly, give warriors the edge over other frontline classes) such as bulls strike, shock, an interrupt or two of some sort, and/or more than just a single kd. You’re in effect just a dervish with extra armor and a kd (hope you have stonefist, at least), but then again, in the heydays of Warrior’s Endurance, everyone just played their warrior like a dervish anyway.

The mesmer build, on the other hand, is pve though, I reckon. It’d decent caster control in pve, but I’d prolly take a ranger hero with chocking gas, flurry and practiced stance. Easily rivals a Panic dom mes in terms of caster control. Or a Broad head arrow with epidemic. Or a Punishing Shot turret ranger. Or a water ele with maelstrom and snares. Or tease&cry of frustr dom rupter with some extra caster hate. Well yea, the options are too many to list.

Or a Fevered Dreams mesmer with either self or team supplied conditions (and Arcane Conundrum).

I’d also take Bulls over any derv attack. It’s just so much more useful to have a potentially 3 person kd than a quick striking attack, and Prot’s strike is enough for most cases. And seriously Eremite’s attack for PvP? The AoE is useless and you don’t really need that many quick striking attacks.

Oh yea, I forgot Fevered dreams was only nerfed for pvp.
And yea, Bulls strike is awesome – its design is one of the finest examples of a skill done right.

Vayne.8563:

….
A lot of people feel the same way when leveling mesmers.

No doubt. I love my Mesmer(s) but leveling them is often an oversize in frustration….

I feel nothing but pure explosive and destructive joy while Leveling my Engineer(s).

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that you couldn’t build much more diverse builds in GW1. Even without the exorbitant number of available skills, the dual class system allows for that alone.

The arguments as to WHY Anet went with the less complex strategy is pretty evident and won’t get changed by stating for the 100th time, “GW1 WAS MORE DIVERSE!”.

If you seriously think the sole reason GW2 is “simplier” than GW1 is because the Anet Devs are just “lazy”, I can’t understand why you are bothering to continue to following anything Anet does….maybe you should just move on.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Vayne.8563:

….
A lot of people feel the same way when leveling mesmers.

No doubt. I love my Mesmer(s) but leveling them is often an oversize in frustration….

I feel nothing but pure explosive and destructive joy while Leveling my Engineer(s).

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that you couldn’t build much more diverse builds in GW1. Even without the exorbitant number of available skills, the dual class system allows for that alone.

The arguments as to WHY Anet went with the less complex strategy is pretty evident and won’t get changed by stating for the 100th time, “GW1 WAS MORE DIVERSE!”.

If you seriously think the sole reason GW2 is “simplier” than GW1 is because the Anet Devs are just “lazy”, I can’t understand why you are bothering to continue to following anything Anet does….maybe you should just move on.

Anet certainly isn’t lazy by any standards: War in Kryta and Winds of Change mobs are the prime example of that, just think of the peacekeepers that use Signet of Disenchantment. No easy way to permaform them.

However they are hit or miss, and may go at the wrong problem entirely (Skeletons of Dhuum not stopping speedclears but instead greatly reducing non-sc party viability, removing cursed dream riders to cater to the SC crowd, or buffing shadow form in the first place)

So they need good feedback or they just decide that all we want is skin grinding with ridiculous speedclear builds that need grinding and consumable heaps to be functional. As far as I’m concerned they’ll get it.

In Guild Wars 1 an elementalist would specialize in only 1 element at the time, but there were many skills combination that would work.

In comparison, in Guild Wars 2 you have to swap through every element every 2 seconds and if you do not run cantrips it’s suicide, therefore there is only 1 optimal build with a few trait variants that make little difference.

Xillllix.3485:

In Guild Wars 1 an elementalist would specialize in only 1 element at the time, but there were many skills combination that would work.

In comparison, in Guild Wars 2 you have to swap through every element every 2 seconds and if you do not run cantrips it’s suicide, therefore there is only 1 optimal build with a few trait variants that make little difference.

Ether Prodigy eles would dip points in multiple elements: Air and Water for GvG, Fire in AB, and even Earth when a ward against melee could be fit into the bar. That elite was a pinnacle of flexibility and variety.

Brother Grimm.5176:

Vayne.8563:

….
A lot of people feel the same way when leveling mesmers.

No doubt. I love my Mesmer(s) but leveling them is often an oversize in frustration….

I feel nothing but pure explosive and destructive joy while Leveling my Engineer(s).

I don’t think anyone is suggesting that you couldn’t build much more diverse builds in GW1. Even without the exorbitant number of available skills, the dual class system allows for that alone.

The arguments as to WHY Anet went with the less complex strategy is pretty evident and won’t get changed by stating for the 100th time, “GW1 WAS MORE DIVERSE!”.

I think you need to remember who started this thread, and what their point was.

Someone that felt that Gw2 had just as much diversity as Guild wars ( laughable ), and wanted to prove his position that The reason Gw2 has as much diversity was because anyone that looked On websites Like PVX would see that the number of “optimum” builds were just as limited as Gw2’s optimal builds.

The thread was not posted by someone saying " We had more build diversity in Guild Wars, and want it here"

But it seems to me it was just someone that Liked the Build Diversity of Gw2, was trying to convince players that played and enjoyed the build diversity of " Build Wars" ( not sure it was one of us that coined the term…I believe it was Vayne..I might be wrong. if I am I apologize before hand, and vayne DID admit that Guild wars has more diversity.) that we were wrong to ever say " Guild Wars has More diversity than Gw2"

His position was " Gw2 has as many optimum builds as Guild Wars." Which to me seems…. disingenuous.

If one takes Optimum to mean " The Best for the given circumstance or situation" then by definition There is only 1 optimum build per given situation ( ie spvp, WvWvW, Pve, Boss battles, Dungeons)

The point I brought up was that Guild Wars had many more Viable builds for those given situations so that players could feel free to " Play anyway they want to play"

THAT is what made it more diverse.

The reasons why Anet made Gw2 less diverse while a good apologetic for simplified games, doesn’t really have anything to do with the topic of this thread.

Brother Grimm.5176:

If you seriously think the sole reason GW2 is “simplier” than GW1 is because the Anet Devs are just “lazy”, I can’t understand why you are bothering to continue to following anything Anet does….maybe you should just move on.

Edit:

I never said that Anet was lazy. I have always said that a lot of people that post defending Anet’s simplification of Guild Wars when they released Gw2…. have given 2 basic responses.

1. Gw2 needs to be simpler because today’s casuals, need a simpler game than Guild Wars. ( I disagree. Today’s casuals are just as equipped to play a game as deep as Guild Wars, given the oppurtunity)

and

2. Anet needs Gw2 to be simpler so that they can have an easier time balancing skills. ( I disagree, Anet is just as equipped to balance a game as deep as Guild Wars, and would provide one, if NOT given easy outs by players content with Guild Wars – superlite.)

These are the positions of people that always defend Anet.
So … who is calling Anet lazy?

Really? Because I’d argue Arena.net wanted less “diversity” so that they could adequately balance the game (because no… it was pretty much IMPOSSIBLE to balance GW1 considering the sheer number of permutations) and make it appealing as an e-sport.

While I am extremely dubious they have SUCCEEDED at this, my guess is that was their motivation.

Again…..over and over I see posts here trying to PROVE GW1 allowed for more diverse builds and variation…WHY? Is anyone still following this thread 8 pages later arguing this is NOT the case? It’s like watching a bunch of guys standing outside on a cloudless day stating the sky is so much bluer than at midnight…..(almost funny)!

I get part of it is nostalgia, but none of this reminiscing over GW1 is going to change ANYTHING in GW2…..period.

While I’m not going back to review 8 pages of posts, I’m pretty sure I recall more than a few uses of the word “lazy” (or a form of “lazy”) used to describe GW2 development in this thread. If you want to go review the thread for them, you can certainly do so. If you are going to straight face tell me that “lazy Devs”, is not the number one cry of those that BASH Anet for simplifying GW2, then even more of this discussion is pointless.

tbh, build diversity is not my concern. accessibility of builds is.

give us freedom in changing builds and i guarantee you we will have more builds. this game doesnt allow experimentation because stats are on armor. get those stats off the armor and we have a solution. even with limited gw2 skill number, there would be options.

PetricaKerempuh.7958:

tbh, build diversity is not my concern. accessibility of builds is.

give us freedom in changing builds and i guarantee you we will have more builds. this game doesnt allow experimentation because stats are on armor. get those stats off the armor and we have a solution. even with limited gw2 skill number, there would be options.

This is absolutely true. This game is very limiting in that way.

I was about to reinstall GW2, but then this thread reminded me (yet again) why I stopped playing: The dull “all over the place” combat system.

Also, I haven’t played in a very long time, yet every time I visit this forum, a thread such as this can be found no futher away than page 2. It’s a new thread every time, but it’s always about this. So this is clearly something people are completely heartbroken about, and wish their voices would be heard by ANet.

It won’t though…

Zii The Mad.2563:

I was about to reinstall GW2, but then this thread reminded me (yet again) why I stopped playing: The dull “all over the place” combat system.

Also, I haven’t played in a very long time, yet every time I visit this forum, a thread such as this can be found no futher away than page 2. It’s a new thread every time, but it’s always about this. So this is clearly something people are completely heartbroken about, and wish their voices would be heard by ANet.

It won’t though…

I know how you feel. I also would like to see greater diversity.

But the game is over 2 years old, and the devs have not mentioned anything about greater diversity. I think even if they decided tomorrow to improve diversity, i might be a long time before we saw any change in the game.

Unfortunately, Anet follows the money, not the forum posts. As such I think we may be in the minority. It is likely that the majority of players either do not care whether or not there is greater diversity, or do not care enough to post.

It is also possible that there are players that even if they care, don’t let it change their behavior any, and continue playing, and shopping at the Gem Store.

Nothing wrong with that. If players want greater diversity, but when they weigh things against one another, they find they rather play the game, and keep buying stuff off the store, then they are the kind of a player that would welcome change if it comes, but if it doesn’t… No big deal.

As long as there are players that either don’t care about build diversity, or say they care, but don’t care enough for it to influence their play and shop patterns…

Anet will just keep doing what proves to be bringing in cash. Keep on with the current game, because I am sure if gem store purchases, or game population dropped significantly, and they could tie those patterns to the simplified..( for lack of a less offensive word) nature of gw2, I am pretty sure they would work On making the game deeper.

Players always vote with their wallet. Even when they think they aren’t. See Players seem to think that " Vote with your wallet" only means.." If you dislike the game… show it with your wallet" or " If you like the game… show it with your wallet."

We all know exactly how those two groups vote with their wallets. But there are people that do so, even when they don’t consiously think they do.

One group is the player that claims that some things in game matter, and would Like to see changes to those things… claim that they feel such changes would be better for the game…but then…. Don’t change their purchase patterns based On those feelings.

They keep buying stuff off the gem store. They CLAIM that something bothers them about the game, and when they see it On the forums, and echo the sentiments." ya, we need more diversity… ya we should have more skills." But when the new armor skins come out…. they are there with the CC.

These players are also voting with their wallets. Unfortunately, their wallet vote is not compatible with what their mouth is saying, or fingers typing.