Guild Wars 2

I agree.

They obviously removed secondary professions and the better skill system so balancing would be easier. But they seemed to have ignored the fact it gives far less choice in builds and skills.

My hope is that maybe by the time the first expansion comes out they will do something about the very limiting feel of the skills. But frankly I’m not counting on it.

The very skill system that was the life of Guild Wars 1, also spelled the death of Guild Wars 1. Without the ability to balance the game, content became meaningless. Those who loved the minutiae of making very complex builds loved it. Casuals found it hard, and most people just want to PVx wiki for the build of the month. Getting into a pug group for elite content without the build of the month became ridiculously hard. You played with your guild, or not at all.

The balance issues continually plagued the game. Sabway, I-way, Imbagon Paragons, discord mesmers, 600 monks, spirit spammer solo farm builds were fun for some people. But other people disliked them immensely.

There’s a price you pay for variety in a game. And Guild Wars 1 started with less skills and added as it went. Guild Wars 2 will do the same thing. It will grow in complexity as time goes on.

It will NEVER get to the kind of complexity Guild Wars 1 got to. I don’t personally see this as a bad thing. I see this as a good thing.

Vayne.8563:

The very skill system that was the life of Guild Wars 1, also spelled the death of Guild Wars 1. Without the ability to balance the game, content became meaningless. Those who loved the minutiae of making very complex builds loved it. Casuals found it hard, and most people just want to PVx wiki for the build of the month. Getting into a pug group for elite content without the build of the month became ridiculously hard. You played with your guild, or not at all.

The balance issues continually plagued the game. Sabway, I-way, Imbagon Paragons, discord mesmers, 600 monks, spirit spammer solo farm builds were fun for some people. But other people disliked them immensely.

There’s a price you pay for variety in a game. And Guild Wars 1 started with less skills and added as it went. Guild Wars 2 will do the same thing. It will grow in complexity as time goes on.

It will NEVER get to the kind of complexity Guild Wars 1 got to. I don’t personally see this as a bad thing. I see this as a good thing.

The skill system hardly proved the death of Guild Wars 1. To say so is just wrong.

I will say this again, the game balance in GW1 was never as imbalanced as it is in GW2 now. Also, it wasn’t the addition of new skills that hurt the balance in GW1 as much as the addition of new classes.

There was never as big of a problem in GW1 of getting in to a PUG group that isn’t on the same level of getting into a PUG group now in GW2. If you think that is the reason GW1 failed, then there is no hope for GW2 because it has the same problems – if not worse.

Also, just because there were some OP builds didn’t mean the game was unplayable. Yes, as time went on there were some that were just outrageously OP, and they got fixed quickly. However, team builds like IWAY were actually good for the game. See, now you are talking PvP which is my background. IWAY and other builds like it – provided a very easy and less complex way of getting into PvP without needing to know everything. It allowed teams a way to win and learn the mechanics of PvP without getting rolled by better teams and becoming disillusioned with the format and quitting. This is actually a good thing, because even the best IWAY teams didn’t have the requisite skills on their skillbar to hold halls or be a threat against well skilled teams. So, OP builds allowed for a low barrier of entry without hurting the high end meta. This is a GOOD thing.

Also, solo builds were fun. They didn’t hurt the game at all. Hell, GW1 probably gave you more relevant solo options than GW2 does now. At least there you could farm and make some money solo. In GW2 there is very few things that are profitable on a solo basis.

GW2 is actually needlessly complex. The trait system is a good example. A lot of it just isn’t intuitive at all.

Part of GW2’s other problem is that the redundancy of direct damage skills is boring. Although, the game is balanced around direct damage vs. direct damage, so it is also very shallow.

The beautiful thing that GW1 combat did well is that is had much more depth than GW2 does now. The balance between damage, healing/protection and utility/counters was way more balanced than GW2 ever has benn, and probably ever will be.

It is unfortunate, because the advancements that GW2 made in adding the “active” combat are actually quite fun. They are just poorly designed.

Dodging in any direction for a split second of “invulnerability” isn’t as interesting as it could be. In fact, it barely scratches the surface of interesting.

Combo fields and finishers, again, are neat, but don’t add substantial advantages, and are often best when a casual side effect instead of being something worth setting up.

I try to make myself believe that these things happened because ANet released the game before it was ready and not because they didn’t know how to make combat interesting.

Space Cow.2431:

In my opinion, GW2’s skill system is far too restrictive. The biggest issue is in the weapon system, because those are the skills you will be using the most in combat and there isn’t much room for experimentation there. The pool of skills to choose from is simply too small once you’ve committed to your race and profession at character creation.

The only thing GW2 does better than GW1 as far as the skill system goes is Traits. Traits are infinitely better than attribute points.

I don’t think Anet would overhaul their skill system this far into the game’s lifetime, but I might as well bring up my two cents and see what happens.

I agree. Guild Wars was like a card game with a huge deck out of which you could pick a few cards to combat opponents, all the while hunting perfect cards to arrange your build. The skill hunt was probably the part of the game I enjoyed most. The fact that I only ended up using a handful of skills from that complete deck didn’t diminish the adventure of growth and exploration.

Guild Wars 2 went too far in the other direction. I don’t know whether this was to cater to the larger MMO population and/or an overreaction to the GW1 system, but it’s too restrictive and, ultimately, boring. Once you learn the best rotations on the best weapon(s), you are left with little else in terms of character growth, save a few utilities you can unlock. This doesn’t take a lot of time, and doesn’t leave you with the feeling of accomplishment I so often had when mastering a character in Guild Wars 1.

Sure, there’s customization in the broad sense, but on a game centered on who generates the most dps in any given fight, your viable options become quite limited.

It would take an enormous amount of balance, but even being able to swap out one or two skills on any weapon would add a lot of interesting customization. But, like you said, I doubt it will happen at this stage.

Alas, it could have been so fun.

Of course you guys agree. You accuse me of being a GW 2 fan boy. Well you’re GW 1 fan boys and you know, memory is not a perfect vessel.

The balance in Guild Wars 1 was actually far worse in PVe than anything you see in Guild Wars 2. And I don’t care if you believe it or not. The proof is in the pudding.

So many OP builds that had to be nerfed over the years and OP in ways that nothing in GW 2 even approaches. GW 1 builds took OP to new levels.

A permasin…a sin that literally could do damage without taking damage 100% of the time? Really? An imbagon paragon that could mitigate 90% of an entire group’s damage more than 90% of the time? Not imbalanced?

It’s really nice that you guys like Guild Wars 1. I liked it too. But it had a whole lot of really really bad imbalances over the years, some of which existed for years.

Ursan anyone?

Vayne.8563:

Casuals found it hard

They did? May I ask how you know?

Meret.5943:

Vayne.8563:

Casuals found it hard

They did? May I ask how you know?

Okay, let me qualify that. Some casuals found it hard. I know because I’ve met and talked to them over the years. There’s one guy in my guild right now who couldn’t figure out Guild Wars 1 at all. He couldn’t. He’s played lots of other games, but Guild Wars 1 was just too complicated. Too different from other games. It’s not the first time I’ve heard the complaint.

In some ways, Factions was worse than Prophecies in this way, because you could level to 20 in a day. They threw skills at you so fast you didn’t have time to adjust. Prophecies was a much slower game, during which you got skills much slower. But over all, the complexity of the skills, which people keep touting, were too complex for some people.

And these aren’t necessarily unintelligent people. They were people who were overwhelmed by the game’s complexity.

Hell one of the guys in my guild didn’t even know there missions because he didn’t notice the enter mission button the party panel in Prophecies. He spent the entire time doing side quests and wondering why there was no story.

Space Cow.2431:

Disclaimer:

In my opinion, GW2’s skill system is far too restrictive. The biggest issue is in the weapon system, because those are the skills you will be using the most in combat and there isn’t much room for experimentation there. The pool of skills to choose from is simply too small once you’ve committed to your race and profession at character creation.

The only thing GW2 does better than GW1 as far as the skill system goes is Traits. Traits are infinitely better than attribute points.

I don’t think Anet would overhaul their skill system this far into the game’s lifetime, but I might as well bring up my two cents and see what happens.

I couldn’t agree more with everything said here.

The big, enormous plus of Guild Wars 1 was the incredible variety of builds offered to the players, and it just got trashed and forgotten in Guild Wars 2.

5 skills by set of weapons, one healing skill, three ‘utility’ skills to choose from 22 differents, with cooldown so longs they barely make a difference, and a few elite skills, which for most of them are only elite in their name.

We are far far away from the hundred of possibilites coming in the first game.

I know, ’it’s easier to balance, more intuitive’, but it’s also ridiculously restrictive, when compared to the first one.

Yes, ‘traits’, but it’s just not the same, especially considering that traits just change the skills you already have, or give you some passives.

We need more skills, and especially more weapon skills.

Having the same 5 skills from the beginning of the game to the endgame just feels boring as hell.

For example, the assassin was my favorite class in the first Guild Wars, because of all the possibilites he had. And the thief in GW2 is nothing like that.

I tried him, but he just felt so boring and uninteresting compared to the assassin, that I finally chose an engineer.

Why? Because it’s one of the few classes to have more choices of set of low cooldown skills thanks to the kits.

The fact that the variety of GW1 was killed in the second one was and still is my biggest disappointement in this game.

Guns and Giblets.9308:

Space Cow.2431:

In my opinion, GW2’s skill system is far too restrictive. The biggest issue is in the weapon system, because those are the skills you will be using the most in combat and there isn’t much room for experimentation there. The pool of skills to choose from is simply too small once you’ve committed to your race and profession at character creation.

The only thing GW2 does better than GW1 as far as the skill system goes is Traits. Traits are infinitely better than attribute points.

I don’t think Anet would overhaul their skill system this far into the game’s lifetime, but I might as well bring up my two cents and see what happens.

I agree. Guild Wars was like a card game with a huge deck out of which you could pick a few cards to combat opponents, all the while hunting perfect cards to arrange your build. The skill hunt was probably the part of the game I enjoyed most. The fact that I only ended up using a handful of skills from that complete deck didn’t diminish the adventure of growth and exploration.

Guild Wars 2 went too far in the other direction. I don’t know whether this was to cater to the larger MMO population and/or an overreaction to the GW1 system, but it’s too restrictive and, ultimately, boring. Once you learn the best rotations on the best weapon(s), you are left with little else in terms of character growth, save a few utilities you can unlock. This doesn’t take a lot of time, and doesn’t leave you with the feeling of accomplishment I so often had when mastering a character in Guild Wars 1.

Sure, there’s customization in the broad sense, but on a game centered on who generates the most dps in any given fight, your viable options become quite limited.

It would take an enormous amount of balance, but even being able to swap out one or two skills on any weapon would add a lot of interesting customization. But, like you said, I doubt it will happen at this stage.

Alas, it could have been so fun.

Part of the problem is the skills themselves. They aren’t interesting. They are just different ways of doing damage, and little else.

Where’s the bull’s strike? Where’s the frenzy that gave you 33% faster attack but traded with taking double damage? Where’s deep wound? These were all interesting mechanics that did very special important things. There is very little of these skills left. Hell, there is very little interesting mechanics left.

Where are the hexes? Each mesmer hex was more interesting than 90% of the skills in GW2. Diversion was maybe the most interesting non-elite skill ever.

What about conditions? Where is deep wound and daze? Besides blind, those were some of the most interesting conditions in GW1.

What about things like guardian, or spirit bond, or Aegis, or any of the protection skills?

The FACT is that the skills that defined the various metas that existed during GW1 on both the PvE and PvP side were way more interesting than what we have now, which is basically – how do you like your damage served?

I was a casual in GW1 and I prefer the system there. What it gave was choice and freedom. There were the player-egos who made it a hobby to critique players who didn’t know the latest build but, being a casual player, I sometimes made one I liked or a guild mate turned me on to something good… it was not a burden at all to have many options. It was freedom. I think that is what is missing in GW2 in the game overall… freedom. GW2 seems to be a repressive regime at times… there is super control over all aspects, especially skills and very especially the economy. Even the way the game is played feels restrictive—if you don’t play it their way, you don’t progress. I like the traits too, but maybe we like the traits because they are the only freedom we have when it comes to skills.

I wish we had a choice to select different skills for slots 1-5, just like with utility slots. Also some animations could have been changed as thief, mesmer and warrior (not sure about ranger) have exactly the same animation for the sword auto-attack, the only difference between these combos are some small particle effects.

The thing is, guild wars 2 drops the quantity of skills because it strives to be more of an action game than what guild wars was. It relies more on execution than builds, and I think that that’s one of the reasons why guild wars players feel disappointed. What they need to understand though, is that there are a lot of people who prefer this system.

Personally, I want to spend as little time as possible on mixing builds and changing armor. I would like everyone to be equal so that the only thing determining the winner is his actual skill. Of course, I’m a pvp player and I understand how equal footing would be boring for the pve people.

Dedalus.3065:

The thing is, guild wars 2 drops the quantity of skills because it strives to be more of an action game than what guild wars was. It relies more on execution than builds, and I think that that’s one of the reasons why guild wars players feel disappointed. What they need to understand though, is that there are a lot of people who prefer this system.

Personally, I want to spend as little time as possible on mixing builds and changing armor. I would like everyone to be equal so that the only thing determining the winner is his actual skill. Of course, I’m a pvp player and I understand how equal footing would be boring for the pve people.

But that’s the thing, for an action game, all they really added was a pretty shallow dodge mechanic.

If they wanted a real action game, what happened to things like blocking or parrying or making movement and positioning matter. I mean, they did it a little, but it isn’t spread out to every class type.

As such, we have a really bad mix of action and skill based combat that doesn’t work all that well. If they wanted to make it more action oriented, I would have preferred to see the same things that make action oriented games great in this game – and we don’t.

Also, this is just my experience, but one of the biggest complaints I hear about GW2 is about the combat system. This is from all sorts of people, not just GW1 players.

clay.7849:

Dedalus.3065:

The thing is, guild wars 2 drops the quantity of skills because it strives to be more of an action game than what guild wars was. It relies more on execution than builds, and I think that that’s one of the reasons why guild wars players feel disappointed. What they need to understand though, is that there are a lot of people who prefer this system.

Personally, I want to spend as little time as possible on mixing builds and changing armor. I would like everyone to be equal so that the only thing determining the winner is his actual skill. Of course, I’m a pvp player and I understand how equal footing would be boring for the pve people.

But that’s the thing, for an action game, all they really added was a pretty shallow dodge mechanic.

If they wanted a real action game, what happened to things like blocking or parrying or making movement and positioning matter. I mean, they did it a little, but it isn’t spread out to every class type.

As such, we have a really bad mix of action and skill based combat that doesn’t work all that well. If they wanted to make it more action oriented, I would have preferred to see the same things that make action oriented games great in this game – and we don’t.

Also, this is just my experience, but one of the biggest complaints I hear about GW2 is about the combat system. This is from all sorts of people, not just GW1 players.

Doesn’t work all that well IN YOUR OPINION.

One of the biggest complaints I heard about Guild Wars 1 was that the skill system sucked.

The truth is, there have even been threads on this forum with tons of people who love the combat system. It’s like everything else. Some like it, some don’t. You don’t have the numbers, you only think you do.

From recollection, in a thread I remember talking about the combat system, as many people liked it as didn’t.

The problem is, you don’t like it, so you think that’s true of most people.

Yep, some people don’t like this combat system, but is that even close to a majority?

I’m not thinking it is.

clay.7849:

But that’s the thing, for an action game, all they really added was a pretty shallow dodge mechanic.

If they wanted a real action game, what happened to things like blocking or parrying or making movement and positioning matter. I mean, they did it a little, but it isn’t spread out to every class type.

As such, we have a really bad mix of action and skill based combat that doesn’t work all that well. If they wanted to make it more action oriented, I would have preferred to see the same things that make action oriented games great in this game – and we don’t.

Also, this is just my experience, but one of the biggest complaints I hear about GW2 is about the combat system. This is from all sorts of people, not just GW1 players.

I agree that they could’ve done a better job at the combat system with things like tab targeting and whatnot, but I think part of the reason was because they didn’t want to alienate GW1 players too much.

Anyway, I still think positioning and movement matter a lot. Hard to demonstrate with words, but here are two videos that I think demonstrate why I find the combat system rather satisfying.

I think the main different for me between the Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 combat system is where I’m looking. In Guild Wars 1, I was looking at my skill bar. In Guild Wars 2 I’m looking at the world.

I find that, personally, far more immersive.

Dedalus.3065:

I agree that they could’ve done a better job at the combat system with things like tab targeting and whatnot, but I think part of the reason was because they didn’t want to alienate GW1 players too much.

Anyway, I still think positioning and movement matter a lot. Hard to demonstrate with words, but here are two videos that I think demonstrate why I find the combat system rather satisfying.

Ya I agree that they probably didn’t want to alienate GW1 players, but I think they did that anyway, so whatever.

But, ya, things like kiting and dodging are good examples of positions and movement, but when I think of action based combat I think of things like Street Fighter, but in 3D.

So like, you know how the thief has the backstab thing? More of that. Or, like if someone is blocking their front, you need to hit them from behind. That kind of positioning and movement. The actual “dance” of the fight.

It is definitely a step in a different direction, although I would hesitate to call it better or worse, just different. However, I think that it could have been done in a way that still provided more depth to combat than what we have now.

Vayne.8563:

I think the main different for me between the Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 combat system is where I’m looking. In Guild Wars 1, I was looking at my skill bar. In Guild Wars 2 I’m looking at the world.

I find that, personally, far more immersive.

Maybe you just memorized where your skills are better in GW2? I mean there is no reason to have to look at your skillbar ever in GW1 if you know what you were doing. Maybe you were just bad?

@ Vayne.

Are you here 24/7 on this forum posting how everything about GW2 is great?
Your bias is far too obvious.

Of course GW1 had flaws, it wasn’t perfect, far from it, but please, take your head out of your – and think and compare GW1 to GW2, skill system.

Guess everyone missedon guru with the interview.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/news/1109-qa-with-jonathan
-sharp-and-jon-peters/

They want to fix everything first before adding something new. Plus, they have to do everything in a months time.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I think the main different for me between the Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 combat system is where I’m looking. In Guild Wars 1, I was looking at my skill bar. In Guild Wars 2 I’m looking at the world.

I find that, personally, far more immersive.

Maybe you just memorized where your skills are better in GW2? I mean there is no reason to have to look at your skillbar ever in GW1 if you know what you were doing. Maybe you were just bad?

That’s right….I was just bad. That must be it.

Or I was looking at when skills could be cast again, because in PVe there wasn’t much reason to look at you screen. As I’ve said before, there wasn’t much reason to do anything because your heroes were so powerful you didn’t even have to show up.

I said the game was too easy, not to hard. You should probably pay more attention.

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I think the main different for me between the Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 combat system is where I’m looking. In Guild Wars 1, I was looking at my skill bar. In Guild Wars 2 I’m looking at the world.

I find that, personally, far more immersive.

Maybe you just memorized where your skills are better in GW2? I mean there is no reason to have to look at your skillbar ever in GW1 if you know what you were doing. Maybe you were just bad?

That’s right….I was just bad. That must be it.

Or I was looking at when skills could be cast again, because in PVe there wasn’t much reason to look at you screen. As I’ve said before, there wasn’t much reason to do anything because your heroes were so powerful you didn’t even have to show up.

I said the game was too easy, not to hard. You should probably pay more attention.

I forgot you didn’t play before heroes so your view of GW1 is tainted. I’m sorry you didn’t experience it in its glory days.

No reason for you to say it was a bad game because you played it at the worst point in its history.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I think the main different for me between the Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 combat system is where I’m looking. In Guild Wars 1, I was looking at my skill bar. In Guild Wars 2 I’m looking at the world.

I find that, personally, far more immersive.

Maybe you just memorized where your skills are better in GW2? I mean there is no reason to have to look at your skillbar ever in GW1 if you know what you were doing. Maybe you were just bad?

That’s right….I was just bad. That must be it.

Or I was looking at when skills could be cast again, because in PVe there wasn’t much reason to look at you screen. As I’ve said before, there wasn’t much reason to do anything because your heroes were so powerful you didn’t even have to show up.

I said the game was too easy, not to hard. You should probably pay more attention.

I forgot you didn’t play before heroes so your view of GW1 is tainted. I’m sorry you didn’t experience it in its glory days.

No reason for you to say it was a bad game because you played it at the worst point in its history.

It’s glory days. LMAO

Roger that. I’m not so sure I’d have stayed with the game in its glory days. It’s entirely likely, as I liked the later games better than the earlier ones.

Nick.6972:

@ Vayne.

Are you here 24/7 on this forum posting how everything about GW2 is great?
Your bias is far too obvious.

Of course GW1 had flaws, it wasn’t perfect, far from it, but please, take your head out of your – and think and compare GW1 to GW2, skill system.

Thank you!

Vayne, You’re probably the biggest arena net /gw2 fanboi i’ve seen here, go play GW2, because it’s so great and flawless.

clay.7849:

So like, you know how the thief has the backstab thing? More of that. Or, like if someone is blocking their front, you need to hit them from behind. That kind of positioning and movement. The actual “dance” of the fight.

It is definitely a step in a different direction, although I would hesitate to call it better or worse, just different. However, I think that it could have been done in a way that still provided more depth to combat than what we have now.

Yeah, I think it’s quite interesting how they have tab targeting yet somehow location based damage still exists. I would love it if they developed that more, and your suggestions are steps in the right direction, both in pve and pvp. But arguing about depth is rather pointless as the question reaches the point where we ask ourselves not if we can add more depth, but rather if the depth we have is enough. At that point, it becomes a personal opinion.

I think that the combat depth in pve is ridiculously low and should definitely be expanded. On the other hand in pvp, I’ve played the game for quite some time yet I still haven’t memorized all the animations for the different bursts of professions or stuns, so I dodge the wrong attack a lot of the time. I think a lot of the depth of GW2 comes from reading your enemy, and I also think that that’s one thing a lot of players ignore (mostly because it isn’t prevalent in pve). That’s also the reason why skills are bound to weapons; so we can see our enemy and know which skills he has. For example, defeating a D/D elementalist requires a lot of knowledge and observation; see when he just switched from water attunement and focus your burst then, and if you notice that he’s good, then try to make him use his cantrips (which he undoubtedly has), then attack when he’s out of water.

Anyway, a long discussion but it boils down to preference, as most things do.

Nick.6972:

Vayne, You’re probably the biggest arena net /gw2 fanboi i’ve seen here, go play GW2, because it’s so great and flawless.

And yet I’ve come out against some things Anet has done and you keep ignoring that…which is fine. It shows your true colors.

You can actually like a game and still find things wrong with it (and I do). But that doesn’t mean I’ll stand by while people make up stuff because they don’t like it. It’s funny in a way, because you’re using fan boy as an insult, where as I don’t mind saying I’m a fan of the game.

It doesn’t mean I can’t be objective and it doesn’t mean that I like everything Anet does.

Nick.6972:

Vayne, You’re probably the biggest arena net /gw2 fanboi i’ve seen here, go play GW2, because it’s so great and flawless.

I would just say GW2. I don’t think he is a fan of ArenaNet, at least not the original ArenaNet. Perhaps, the ArenaNet that is now controlled by NCSoft which is squeezing the players of this game for every drop of money they have, but not the original ArenaNet that had a philosophy of making games better.

Sadly, that ArenaNet seems to have left with 2 of its original 3 founders.

clay.7849:

Nick.6972:

Vayne, You’re probably the biggest arena net /gw2 fanboi i’ve seen here, go play GW2, because it’s so great and flawless.

I would just say GW2. I don’t think he is a fan of ArenaNet, at least not the original ArenaNet. Perhaps, the ArenaNet that is now controlled by NCSoft which is squeezing the players of this game for every drop of money they have, but not the original ArenaNet that had a philosophy of making games better.

Sadly, that ArenaNet seems to have left with 2 of its original 3 founders.

More talk without a shred of evidence. Go you.

NCsoft has owned Anet from day one. The game you originally played and loved was made by a company owned by NCSoft. So now its’ all NCsoft’s fault, and Anet is flawless.

And I really did like Guild Wars 1. Like Guild Wars 2, it had many flaws. Every game ever made has flaws. It’s not like a big deal, until people make it a big deal.

This is how it works. If you like a game, you live with the flaws (and tend to ignore them to some degree). If you don’t like a game, the flaws are intolerable.

Pretty simply psychology there.

Dedalus.3065:

clay.7849:

So like, you know how the thief has the backstab thing? More of that. Or, like if someone is blocking their front, you need to hit them from behind. That kind of positioning and movement. The actual “dance” of the fight.

It is definitely a step in a different direction, although I would hesitate to call it better or worse, just different. However, I think that it could have been done in a way that still provided more depth to combat than what we have now.

Yeah, I think it’s quite interesting how they have tab targeting yet somehow location based damage still exists. I would love it if they developed that more, and your suggestions are steps in the right direction, both in pve and pvp. But arguing about depth is rather pointless as the question reaches the point where we ask ourselves not if we can add more depth, but rather if the depth we have is enough. At that point, it becomes a personal opinion.

I think that the combat depth in pve is ridiculously low and should definitely be expanded. On the other hand in pvp, I’ve played the game for quite some time yet I still haven’t memorized all the animations for the different bursts of professions or stuns, so I dodge the wrong attack a lot of the time. I think a lot of the depth of GW2 comes from reading your enemy, and I also think that that’s one thing a lot of players ignore (mostly because it isn’t prevalent in pve). That’s also the reason why skills are bound to weapons; so we can see our enemy and know which skills he has. For example, defeating a D/D elementalist requires a lot of knowledge and observation; see when he just switched from water attunement and focus your burst then, and if you notice that he’s good, then try to make him use his cantrips (which he undoubtedly has), then attack when he’s out of water.

Anyway, a long discussion but it boils down to preference, as most things do.

Yes it does, but I think we agree on a lot of things when it looked like we probably didn’t in the beginning. That is why it is nice to have a conversation with someone of, perhaps, differing opinions, instead of just throwing insults at one another.

Anyways, I do think having other game modes in PvP would be a tremendous benefit. The one we have now doesn’t really encourage much combat as it does maximizing your ability to take, hold and defend cap points.

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I think the main different for me between the Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 combat system is where I’m looking. In Guild Wars 1, I was looking at my skill bar. In Guild Wars 2 I’m looking at the world.

I find that, personally, far more immersive.

Maybe you just memorized where your skills are better in GW2? I mean there is no reason to have to look at your skillbar ever in GW1 if you know what you were doing. Maybe you were just bad?

That’s right….I was just bad. That must be it.

Or I was looking at when skills could be cast again, because in PVe there wasn’t much reason to look at you screen. As I’ve said before, there wasn’t much reason to do anything because your heroes were so powerful you didn’t even have to show up.

I said the game was too easy, not to hard. You should probably pay more attention.

I forgot you didn’t play before heroes so your view of GW1 is tainted. I’m sorry you didn’t experience it in its glory days.

No reason for you to say it was a bad game because you played it at the worst point in its history.

I just….ugh…wait…what?

Did you just say gw1 wasnt that great in the beginning but became amazing towards the end? Do you not see the irony here?!

Serophous.9085:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I think the main different for me between the Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 combat system is where I’m looking. In Guild Wars 1, I was looking at my skill bar. In Guild Wars 2 I’m looking at the world.

I find that, personally, far more immersive.

Maybe you just memorized where your skills are better in GW2? I mean there is no reason to have to look at your skillbar ever in GW1 if you know what you were doing. Maybe you were just bad?

That’s right….I was just bad. That must be it.

Or I was looking at when skills could be cast again, because in PVe there wasn’t much reason to look at you screen. As I’ve said before, there wasn’t much reason to do anything because your heroes were so powerful you didn’t even have to show up.

I said the game was too easy, not to hard. You should probably pay more attention.

I forgot you didn’t play before heroes so your view of GW1 is tainted. I’m sorry you didn’t experience it in its glory days.

No reason for you to say it was a bad game because you played it at the worst point in its history.

I just….ugh…wait…what?

Did you just say gw1 wasnt that great in the beginning but became amazing towards the end? Do you not see the irony here?!

No, I said the exact opposite. Heroes were at the end of GW1, not the beginning.

What part didn’t you understand in my post?

clay.7849:

Dedalus.3065:

clay.7849:

So like, you know how the thief has the backstab thing? More of that. Or, like if someone is blocking their front, you need to hit them from behind. That kind of positioning and movement. The actual “dance” of the fight.

It is definitely a step in a different direction, although I would hesitate to call it better or worse, just different. However, I think that it could have been done in a way that still provided more depth to combat than what we have now.

Yeah, I think it’s quite interesting how they have tab targeting yet somehow location based damage still exists. I would love it if they developed that more, and your suggestions are steps in the right direction, both in pve and pvp. But arguing about depth is rather pointless as the question reaches the point where we ask ourselves not if we can add more depth, but rather if the depth we have is enough. At that point, it becomes a personal opinion.

I think that the combat depth in pve is ridiculously low and should definitely be expanded. On the other hand in pvp, I’ve played the game for quite some time yet I still haven’t memorized all the animations for the different bursts of professions or stuns, so I dodge the wrong attack a lot of the time. I think a lot of the depth of GW2 comes from reading your enemy, and I also think that that’s one thing a lot of players ignore (mostly because it isn’t prevalent in pve). That’s also the reason why skills are bound to weapons; so we can see our enemy and know which skills he has. For example, defeating a D/D elementalist requires a lot of knowledge and observation; see when he just switched from water attunement and focus your burst then, and if you notice that he’s good, then try to make him use his cantrips (which he undoubtedly has), then attack when he’s out of water.

Anyway, a long discussion but it boils down to preference, as most things do.

Yes it does, but I think we agree on a lot of things when it looked like we probably didn’t in the beginning. That is why it is nice to have a conversation with someone of, perhaps, differing opinions, instead of just throwing insults at one another.

Anyways, I do think having other game modes in PvP would be a tremendous benefit. The one we have now doesn’t really encourage much combat as it does maximizing your ability to take, hold and defend cap points.

I wonder if adding more players to the spvp battles might make them more fun? Also they need more open maps. I don’t like paths being in every one.

TDLR and Thread -

GW2’s combat system IS BETTER than GW1’s combat system – more active, less static.

GW1’s skill system IS BETTER than GW2’s skill system – less restrictive, endless options and skill synergies, more creative, has more depth and strategic aspects.

REGARDLESS OF THAT some people don’t want more “strategic” skill system, they just want to log in and kill s-!t without thinking much or caring, aka casuals.

clay.7849:

Serophous.9085:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

clay.7849:

Vayne.8563:

I think the main different for me between the Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 combat system is where I’m looking. In Guild Wars 1, I was looking at my skill bar. In Guild Wars 2 I’m looking at the world.

I find that, personally, far more immersive.

Maybe you just memorized where your skills are better in GW2? I mean there is no reason to have to look at your skillbar ever in GW1 if you know what you were doing. Maybe you were just bad?

That’s right….I was just bad. That must be it.

Or I was looking at when skills could be cast again, because in PVe there wasn’t much reason to look at you screen. As I’ve said before, there wasn’t much reason to do anything because your heroes were so powerful you didn’t even have to show up.

I said the game was too easy, not to hard. You should probably pay more attention.

I forgot you didn’t play before heroes so your view of GW1 is tainted. I’m sorry you didn’t experience it in its glory days.

No reason for you to say it was a bad game because you played it at the worst point in its history.

I just….ugh…wait…what?

Did you just say gw1 wasnt that great in the beginning but became amazing towards the end? Do you not see the irony here?!

No, I said the exact opposite. Heroes were at the end of GW1, not the beginning.

What part didn’t you understand in my post?

Ok, i did misread on my part. But i really didnt play for long as i didnt like gw1 in the beginning. It was all about speed running to the top trai er a the time, which made it a pain to find a group to actually play, that most of the time i went with the npcs…

To be fair, barring the pseudo-elite from CoF 1 farming runs, what’s very fun about this game is that, despite the seemingly lacking variation of builds, one can really make whichever build and be successful at most any content, as long as you play well, know the mechanics, and know how to optimize your individually chosen build and Profession. PVx Wiki ruined most of the GW1 experience for me, as I hate flavor of the months build, and can’t just copy what everybody else is doing-I gotta have fun MY WAY. It’s a pity that the possible diversity of builds available on GW1 was killed by a large amount of the playerbase that chose to use “the best builds.” I didn’t want to play the best, but the most fun builds instead. Oddly enough, they did work for me, but then you weren’t wanted in non-friend, non-guildie groups. It was “ping build – kicked, noob”. Now, that’s very much the player’s problem, much like CoF 1 player’s can be entitled individuals (though not all, of course), but it was way much more of a problem than it is on GW2, and it just can’t be denied. Yes, such elitism still exists in here, but in comparison, it’s really a minor problem (and the reason I do have qualms about the general “CoF1 attitude” is that I wouldn’t want GW2 to become GW1 on the negative aspects it did bring.)

I hated Ursanway so much-I wasn’t even able to group up with my own guild at times because it became so popular, and I didn’t want to have any part of it. :/ If GW2 is much more fun with a great friendly Guild and/or great in-game friends, on GW1 you really have to have a good Guild or conform to the lifeless, invariable builds that the majority of PUGs wanted you to play (their way or the highway, rather than YOUR WAY, as it should always be.)

Many Professions were also left in the dust due to this rampant PUG elitism, sadly. The Guardian/Mesmer/Warrior preference in here, which is also ignorant and stiffling, pales in comparison to the close-mindedness of many in the community back then.

I still love GW1, BTW… ironically Heroes made the game more fun to me, because it allowed me to use whichever build I wanted, and I had fun that way. It was both good and bad, but considering the elitism of many PUGS, I often preferred playing with my own, self-customized band of heroes.

Star Ace.5207:

To be fair, barring the pseudo-elite from CoF 1 farming runs, what’s very fun about this game is that, despite the seemingly lacking variation of builds, one can really make whichever build and be successful at most any content, as long as you play well, know the mechanics, and know how to optimize your individually chosen build and Profession. PVx Wiki ruined most of the GW1 experience for me, as I hate flavor of the months build, and can’t just copy what everybody else is doing-I gotta have fun MY WAY. It’s a pity that the possible diversity of builds available on GW1 was killed by a large amount of the playerbase that chose to use “the best builds.” I didn’t want to play the best, but the most fun builds instead. Oddly enough, they did work for me, but then you weren’t wanted in non-friend, non-guildie groups. It was “ping build – kicked, noob”. Now, that’s very much the player’s problem, much like CoF 1 player’s can be entitled individuals (though not all, of course), but it was way much more of a problem than it is on GW2, and it just can’t be denied. Yes, such elitism still exists in here, but in comparison, it’s really a minor problem (and the reason I do have qualms about the general “CoF1 attitude” is that I wouldn’t want GW2 to become GW1 on the negative aspects it did bring.)

I hated Ursanway so much-I wasn’t even able to group up with my own guild at times because it became so popular, and I didn’t want to have any part of it. :/ If GW2 is much more fun with a great friendly Guild and/or great in-game friends, on GW1 you really have to have a good Guild or conform to the lifeless, invariable builds that the majority of PUGs wanted you to play (their way or the highway, rather than YOUR WAY, as it should always be.)

Many Professions were also left in the dust due to this rampant PUG elitism, sadly. The Guardian/Mesmer/Warrior preference in here, which is also ignorant and stiffling, pales in comparison to the close-mindedness of many in the community back then.

I still love GW1, BTW… ironically Heroes made the game more fun to me, because it allowed me to use whichever build I wanted, and I had fun that way. It was both good and bad, but considering the elitism of many PUGS, I often preferred playing with my own, self-customized band of heroes.

You and me have a lot in common. I liked playing with heroes too, because I hated when people insisted I use Build X. My builds worked absolutely fine.

The thing is, GW1 skill system was way more restrictive than GW2 system. Ever did DoA on Hard Mode? Ever did ANY speedruns in GW1? Much like the 4zerker wars + 1 Mes we get for CoF p1 speedfarming, GW1 speedruns and HM elite area runs were way similar, if not completely the same.

Also, the vast majority of skill combinations, or even profession combinations, were unplayable. Only very few builds were actually good and viable for the hardest content.

Having more skills to choose from doesn’t make more choices available.

A lot more prefer the current system.

That’s just it. The system is working fine at the moment and majority of the customers are satisfied with it.

GW1 skill system has a lot of freedom, But that doesnt mean its a good system.

what’s the use of 10,000,000,000,000 possible builds if the majority would only use 5 overpowered builds?

sure GW2 has some balancing issues atm and that it has way way way lesser build possibilities.

But fact is, the players’ are actually using almost all of these builds and there’s diversity can really be seen. It is also more accessible to the casual players.

add also the fact that Piloting Skills now has a bigger impact on your total gameplay.

I’d if you look at the whole picture. GW2 is way way way way way way WAAAAAY more balanced than GW1 in overall aspects.

You’re talking about Elite Zones, the most optimal builds had only the cookie cutter skills.
Outside of them you could run anything you wanted to, literary.
To add, GW1 had more meta builds. Each profession had more than 15+ great working meta builds.

maddoctor.2738:

The thing is, GW1 skill system was way more restrictive than GW2 system. Ever did DoA on Hard Mode? Ever did ANY speedruns in GW1? Much like the 4zerker wars + 1 Mes we get for CoF p1 speedfarming, GW1 speedruns and HM elite area runs were way similar, if not completely the same.

Also, the vast majority of skill combinations, or even profession combinations, were unplayable. Only very few builds were actually good and viable for the hardest content.

Having more skills to choose from doesn’t make more choices available.

When you decide that you need to exploit the enemy AI in a game for speed runs, you are going to get the same restrictive results no matter what game it is.

Nick.6972:

You’re talking about Elite Zones, the most optimal builds had only the cookie cutter skills.
Outside of them you could run anything you wanted to, literary.
To add, GW1 had more meta builds.

So you’re saying that you could literally run any build you want…but somehow that game is more interesting/harder than Guild Wars 2? Seems to defy logic to me.

If the game was more challenging, then you shouldn’t just be able to run any build you want. Unless the game is only more challenging in a couple of elite instances.

The fact is, you could run any build you want on your character, as long as your heroes were specced well.

And the funny bit is, I sorta liked that part. I liked playing with a team build instead of a single build. Figure out ways to do things better. But it was just too easy. There was no challenge in it, because the content, even in hard mode was so easy.

At least in Guild Wars 2, if I’m not paying attention, I can still get killed by a couple of veterans even in a low level area. In Guild Wars 1, there were very few zones I had to pay attention in at all.

clay.7849:

maddoctor.2738:

The thing is, GW1 skill system was way more restrictive than GW2 system. Ever did DoA on Hard Mode? Ever did ANY speedruns in GW1? Much like the 4zerker wars + 1 Mes we get for CoF p1 speedfarming, GW1 speedruns and HM elite area runs were way similar, if not completely the same.

Also, the vast majority of skill combinations, or even profession combinations, were unplayable. Only very few builds were actually good and viable for the hardest content.

Having more skills to choose from doesn’t make more choices available.

When you decide that you need to exploit the enemy AI in a game for speed runs, you are going to get the same restrictive results no matter what game it is.

OMFG! I agree with you!

I guess what people should remember is with nostalgia, you only tend to remember the good times and ignore the bad. Its like with the WoW group. ‘BC was the best. BC was the greatest.’ Do they also remember when every 2v2 team was most like resto druid / class x? Do they remember feral druids having avoided the hybrid tax and were killing people and OP, resulting in the second biggest nerf at that time? Do they remember druids healing metely by shapeshifting? Nope! Those were the bad memories that they dont wan to remember as it would taint the happiness they want to feel.

This happens to every mmo. I bet if we could dig up the beginning forums of gw1, we would see just as many complaints as we see now.

Nick.6972:

You’re talking about Elite Zones, the most optimal builds had only the cookie cutter skills.
Outside of them you could run anything you wanted to, literary.
To add, GW1 had more meta builds.

Just use the 7-heroway build and go afk while they clear even the hardest encounter in Hard Mode. Obviously you could use any build you wanted outside of the elite areas because those other 7 heroes could do everything for you. Now go run Hard Mode on ANY zone with a few random builds on any zone, I bet you can’t survive the first pull.

I’m trying to think more than 1 meta build for Paragon, maybe 4 for Monk – maybe less not sure.

So, what you’re saying, you never created anything unique and only played the latest and best PvX build? (Outside Elite Missions/Speed Runs) ?
Well of course there was no diversity whatsoever in GW1 then.

Now I understand. That explains everything, People saying GW1’s skill system was boring and full of dead skills were the ones who never ever experimented or tried innovating anything. Kinda explains why they prefer GW2’s skill system now.

Nick.6972:

So, what you’re saying, you never created anything unique and only played the latest and best PvX build? (Outside Elite Missions/Speed Runs) ?
Well of course there was no diversity whatsoever in GW1 then.

Now I understand. That explains everything, People saying GW1’s skill system was boring and full of dead skills were the ones who never ever experimented or tried innovating anything. Kinda explains why they prefer GW2’s skill system now.

I experimented all the time. I loved making “crazy new builds”. Had a blast doing it.

I simply recognize that as fun as that was, it made the game a complete nightmare to balance. People say Guild Wars 2 is an unbalanced game. Guild Wars 1, by comparison, was shocking.

@Nick, IME, it’s the opposite-I liked the diversity of GW1, but the vast amount of skills weren’t “worthy” of being used by the “leet” PUGS, so in practice, your skill selection was cut down to the few the masses wanted you to utilize. I was for those reasons mostly forced to play alone with my heroes, unless a Guildie wanted to play with my individually chosen, non-copy & paste build. GW2 offers less diversity, but enough to let you choose something unique to your playstyle, while also being good enough for most content (the “leet” are more controlled on this one, and less of a problem, since it’s more obvious that you don’t really need this or that Profession/build to do well.) Note that I DID enjoy GW1’ skill diversity-many other players, though, hated to play “for fun” and just wanted to use “the best builds”-attempting to force those on me as well-which killed the GW1 experience for me in many ways.

In short, in practice, GW2 “limited” system is “more diverse” because the community is less prone to require you to be this or that Profession and use this or that build for this or that content, and those who do can easily be ignored, being a minority-unlike in GW1.

One thing I’d like to bring to GW2 from GW1 would be skill hunting.

For example, you wanted a specific skill in GW1, you had to purchase it, and since different skill vendors had different skill availables, you had to first find out who was selling the particular skill you wanted, and make your way there (sometimes on far off outposts), and sometimes even needing to rep up with a faction to get them (luxons and kurziks). And if you wanted an elite skill, well, you had to first find out which mini boss (equivalent to open world veterans in GW2) had it, purchase a signet of capture, and go hunt and kill it.

The basics are already there, maybe some new skills might be introduced in the future, not better than existing ones balance wise, but more focused to specific situations or builds, and add them to some heart vendors, or maybe to some of the vendors that spawn after some specific events (for example, some events where you have to escort a dolyak caravan, and if you succeed, the owner of the caravan becomes a vendors at the destination for a little while, or maybe like the temple karma vendors in Orr).

They can also sell equivalents to signets of capture, and make the mobs that you have to kill to get a new elite wander around a specific area, kinda like the guild bounty targets do already. Another thing that might be interesting, maybe design them to be fought by the class they have elites for. For example, a mob with a guardian skill might have TONS of hit points but take extended damage from burning or from spirit weapons, for example.