Guild Wars 2

I am a fan of Tim Buckley from Ctrl+Alt+Del (www.cad-comic.com) and found one of this comics to represent things that happen here. I think he is a smart gamer.

haha wow :D

lol… As far as I know, Anet have done nothing but keeping their promises… o.O

This is so true lol. For 4th year in a row we see exactly this. Nothing changed in the past, I don’t expect things to change in yhe future either. Pointless thread if you ask me but thanks for bringing that up anyway.

I’ve been around the sun a few dozen times. I can give some insight as to why it is this happens. AKA, the harsh and terrible truth as to why devs won’t talk to you. Not a direct “you”, but the “you” in the general sense, so don’t take it personally.

#1: You blow things out of proportion. A change doesn’t actually have to be big before people will moan endlessly about it. This is the internet, and people are always making a big drama about something, and just because you’ve gone on to the forums and found a dozen people who agree with you doesn’t mean it is an issue even worth mentioning. You’ll get over it, and if you don’t get over it, bye. We don’t want you here.

#2: You can’t be placated. If you’ve ever tried to reason with a tantruming child, you’d find it is impossible. And of course, being an online videogame, the majority of complaints come from just that. The playerbase is young, full of hormones, and also full of life’s little frustrations over how unpopular in school they all are. You aren’t looking for a solution, you just want to be angered by something. The reason why the devs won’t subject themselves to your every beck and call is because it would only fan the flames. Calm down, kid!

#3: Your complaints are irrational. Yes, just because you’re mad about something doesn’t mean that it makes sense, or is practical in any sense. The fact is that the devs can’t make the sky blue and not blue at the same time. and yet people will be angry at others for not doing their crazy bidding Whether you’re factually wrong, the solution you propose is worse than the problem, or you’re upset over something that can’t be understood by the rational mind, what you want isn’t correct.. There’s nothing to gain from talking to someone who is insane, because sanity is a per-requisite of meaningful communication.

#4: Your complaints are illegitimate. There’s a lot of vitriol leveled at the devs not because what they’ve done is necessary bad, but because something is bad for you. Even if other players want things differently, you are there with your own uncompromising desires, dead set on trying to make the world yours instead of better. Sometimes you have an ulterior motive, sometimes you’re just trolling, other times you just don’t care what other people think. Either way, your “feedback” is flailing wildly in a crowded room: it goes nowhere and just makes people more upset.

#5: Your complaints are a minority. Angered players speak out, content players don’t. While it seems like everyone agrees with you, in fact it is an echo chamber where the same 10 people just yell at their own shadows for days on end. Ultimately, to change any complaint you have it takes resources, and if there are a handful of cantankerous players irate over something, it doesn’t mean it is worth dealing with. The quality of updates and changes is subjective, so if you find yourself constantly out-voted on the matter, accept the horrible fate that your life will be filled with nothing going your way.

#6: The devs already speak with you, but you aren’t satisfied with the exact manner or how much. It is a goalpost that can be constantly moved, so to the belligerent mind can never be sated. Yes, the emotional black holes out there are all aflutter when something isn’t said fast enough, or where they want it to be said, or whether enough is said or not. No matter how much of a dialogue is trying to be casually opened, the fact is that you will always be looking to punch a gift horse in the mouth..

In short: You aren’t worth talking to. Now, I’m going to add this on to the end:

#7: The devs are people, too. Fact is, the devs don’t know what the hell they’re doing. Most people don’t. Most things in life are gambles. They’re going to make mistakes, and they’ll feel bad about their mistakes, or they won’t realize that something is a mistake. Thing is, you’re the worst person to tell them their mistakes. For the 6 reasons above, but also because you’ve assigned a air of mysticism around their work, and thus see anything that doesn’t suit you as the actions of a defiant spirit of some kind. The whole “fester with rage in their public spaces for weeks on end” is not a good look. It is not always going to be immediate that a problem even exists.

I’m not mad about anyone at anet not talking to me – I’m “mad” because of stupid descisions which stay in game for too long.

F.e. the infamous former trait system which was live for over a year. As a consequence few people had all traits or even full trait lines. Since those were significantly weaker than the rest of the players, the traitlines were merged so everybody had to take 3 full trait lines. Seems as if no one understood there is a correlation between people not really being able to get traits and people not having optimal builds.
No one thought the rather randomly merged traits need some balancing and then some new shiny Elite specs appeared, still no balance and the pvp match ended in no one could kill anyone as they’re all bunkers.
You don’t need to talk to me, just fix it – and I already said I would pay for a balancing team and honestly my friends who are mainly wvw/pvp players rage 24/7 about the non existent balance – so I guess that IS an issue.

Jana.6831:

I’m not mad about anyone at anet not talking to me – I’m “mad” because of stupid descisions which stay in game for too long.

F.e. the infamous former trait system which was live for over a year. As a consequence few people had all traits or even full trait lines. Since those were significantly weaker than the rest of the players, the traitlines were merged so everybody had to take 3 full trait lines. Seems as if no one understood there is a correlation between people not really being able to get traits and people not having optimal builds.
No one thought the rather randomly merged traits need some balancing and then some new shiny Elite specs appeared, still no balance and the pvp match ended in no one could kill anyone as they’re all bunkers.
You don’t need to talk to me, just fix it – and I already said I would pay for a balancing team and honestly my friends who are mainly wvw/pvp players rage 24/7 about the non existent balance – so I guess that IS an issue.

or maybe you’re trying to cut stones with scissors in pvp and because you cant do it, you get annoyed and angry… I’m sorry to break it to you… But I’m playing a normal ranger in pvp and I still take down chronometers, daredevils and what’s not in pvp (with a class that is widely known and under powered in pvp)… It’s not the balance that sucks. its you who need to improve what you do. Sure, we know they are working on balance, but really, its not that big of a deal.

Zelanard.5806:

or maybe you’re trying to cut stones with scissors in pvp and because you cant do it, you get annoyed and angry… I’m sorry to break it to you… But I’m playing a normal ranger in pvp and I still take down chronometers, daredevils and what’s not in pvp (with a class that is widely known and under powered in pvp)… It’s not the balance that sucks. its you who need to improve what you do. Sure, we know they are working on balance, but really, its not that big of a deal.

Good for you, but I already said that with the 3 traitlines merged there already was imbalance which hasn’t been taken care of.
Ranger hasn’t been underpowered for now a year and even before a well played ranger could do a lot – it’s just that rangers think they’re underpowered, like some other classes.

Oh I didn’t read the last part. It is the balance that sucks – ask anyone actually.

ETA: And btw: that was an example for bad descisions which stay in game for too long – I could go on actually, but I just wanted to express that I have never been and likely will never be mad about anet not talking to “us”.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’ve been around the sun a few dozen times. I can give some insight as to why it is this happens. AKA, the harsh and terrible truth as to why devs won’t talk to you. Not a direct “you”, but the “you” in the general sense, so don’t take it personally.

#1: You blow things out of proportion. A change doesn’t actually have to be big before people will moan endlessly about it. This is the internet, and people are always making a big drama about something, and just because you’ve gone on to the forums and found a dozen people who agree with you doesn’t mean it is an issue even worth mentioning. You’ll get over it, and if you don’t get over it, bye. We don’t want you here.

#2: You can’t be placated. If you’ve ever tried to reason with a tantruming child, you’d find it is impossible. And of course, being an online videogame, the majority of complaints come from just that. The playerbase is young, full of hormones, and also full of life’s little frustrations over how unpopular in school they all are. You aren’t looking for a solution, you just want to be angered by something. The reason why the devs won’t subject themselves to your every beck and call is because it would only fan the flames. Calm down, kid!

#3: Your complaints are irrational. Yes, just because you’re mad about something doesn’t mean that it makes sense, or is practical in any sense. The fact is that the devs can’t make the sky blue and not blue at the same time. and yet people will be angry at others for not doing their crazy bidding Whether you’re factually wrong, the solution you propose is worse than the problem, or you’re upset over something that can’t be understood by the rational mind, what you want isn’t correct.. There’s nothing to gain from talking to someone who is insane, because sanity is a per-requisite of meaningful communication.

#4: Your complaints are illegitimate. There’s a lot of vitriol leveled at the devs not because what they’ve done is necessary bad, but because something is bad for you. Even if other players want things differently, you are there with your own uncompromising desires, dead set on trying to make the world yours instead of better. Sometimes you have an ulterior motive, sometimes you’re just trolling, other times you just don’t care what other people think. Either way, your “feedback” is flailing wildly in a crowded room: it goes nowhere and just makes people more upset.

#5: Your complaints are a minority. Angered players speak out, content players don’t. While it seems like everyone agrees with you, in fact it is an echo chamber where the same 10 people just yell at their own shadows for days on end. Ultimately, to change any complaint you have it takes resources, and if there are a handful of cantankerous players irate over something, it doesn’t mean it is worth dealing with. The quality of updates and changes is subjective, so if you find yourself constantly out-voted on the matter, accept the horrible fate that your life will be filled with nothing going your way.

#6: The devs already speak with you, but you aren’t satisfied with the exact manner or how much. It is a goalpost that can be constantly moved, so to the belligerent mind can never be sated. Yes, the emotional black holes out there are all aflutter when something isn’t said fast enough, or where they want it to be said, or whether enough is said or not. No matter how much of a dialogue is trying to be casually opened, the fact is that you will always be looking to punch a gift horse in the mouth..

In short: You aren’t worth talking to. Now, I’m going to add this on to the end:

#7: The devs are people, too. Fact is, the devs don’t know what the hell they’re doing. Most people don’t. Most things in life are gambles. They’re going to make mistakes, and they’ll feel bad about their mistakes, or they won’t realize that something is a mistake. Thing is, you’re the worst person to tell them their mistakes. For the 6 reasons above, but also because you’ve assigned a air of mysticism around their work, and thus see anything that doesn’t suit you as the actions of a defiant spirit of some kind. The whole “fester with rage in their public spaces for weeks on end” is not a good look. It is not always going to be immediate that a problem even exists.

I like this guy/girl. Good head on their shoulders. It’s practical, logical, and makes sense… problem is it’s precisely the kind of thing haters hate. Still like though.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

#2: You can’t be placated. If you’ve ever tried to reason with a tantruming child, you’d find it is impossible. And of course, being an online videogame, the majority of complaints come from just that. The playerbase is young, full of hormones, and also full of life’s little frustrations over how unpopular in school they all are. You aren’t looking for a solution, you just want to be angered by something. The reason why the devs won’t subject themselves to your every beck and call is because it would only fan the flames. Calm down, kid!

People are unhappy about something, so they come on forum to tell it, so that means they gotta have some mental issues or childhood trauma and kitten. What pile of bullkitten dude. “They just want to be angered by something”. You sound like some silly psychiatrist who doesn’t know kitten, but assume something.
Instead of making out some crazy theories, what about you think it like that – Not everyone shares your opinion on every matter, so if they are not happy with where the game is going, they want to come to forum and tell why. Of course some people make silly demands or arguments or go over the edge, but a lot of people have serious concerns or opinions/ideas etc. And maybe some of them don’t know how to express themselves in a proper way, but that doesn’t mean that most of them think “hey, today I feel like I ranting, I feel like being angry, so I’m gonna come to forum to complain about stuff, I don’t know what yet, but I’ll think of something, you know because I’m 12 years old after all and all that.”

And the rest of the points you made are pretty much the same things in different words and you just pointed out something we all know in way too many unnecessary words. To sum it up for you “It’s just your opinion, man”.

When I come to forum to express my opinions on things I never expect a dev to come to me and say “hey, you’re kittening right, i’m gonna put that in game right now”.
No, I’m just contributing to discussion and maybe if enough people have similar opinion, maybe something will be done about it.

What’s so wrong about trying shape a game the way community likes? Do you think Anet is the only company that needs to deal with negative feedback? Do you think gaming companies are the only ones that need to deal with negative feedback?

If I feel disapointed by expansion for example, I’m sure gonna come here and tell them why, because I hope they can do better next time and because I invested a lot of time in the game and don’t want it to end like that or I want to keep playing.

And also it’s not so much about communications, I couldn’t care less if there is not a single dev post in this forum as long as they can make good games..

And your minority is showing with sales and population in the game. So since you’re most likely not a developer, how about you don’t assume how many players want this or that and how many have legitimate arguments or what’s minority and all that. Leave that to A-net. They will decide what’s good for them and time will tell if it’s good for their playerbase too. In the meantime we will give our feedback, good or bad and it doesn’t mean we are angry kids or have mental issues, but it means that we like the game and we would like to see it get better.

Humorous and very true.
Thank you for posting. It made me chuckle. XD

Zelanard.5806:

lol… As far as I know, Anet have done nothing but keeping their promises… o.O

Depends on how you mean keeping promises?

Pre-HoT:
“Guilds are the lifeblood of Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns™, and it’s our desire that they become a greater part of World vs. World.”

Post-HoT:
“kitten all you small guilds, pay us 5000 gold and spend 3 months upgrading to have meaningfull WvW claiming.”

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’ve been around the sun a few dozen times. I can give some insight as to why it is this happens. AKA, the harsh and terrible truth as to why devs won’t talk to you. Not a direct “you”, but the “you” in the general sense, so don’t take it personally.

#1: You blow things out of proportion. A change doesn’t actually have to be big before people will moan endlessly about it. This is the internet, and people are always making a big drama about something, and just because you’ve gone on to the forums and found a dozen people who agree with you doesn’t mean it is an issue even worth mentioning. You’ll get over it, and if you don’t get over it, bye. We don’t want you here.

#2: You can’t be placated. If you’ve ever tried to reason with a tantruming child, you’d find it is impossible. And of course, being an online videogame, the majority of complaints come from just that. The playerbase is young, full of hormones, and also full of life’s little frustrations over how unpopular in school they all are. You aren’t looking for a solution, you just want to be angered by something. The reason why the devs won’t subject themselves to your every beck and call is because it would only fan the flames. Calm down, kid!

#3: Your complaints are irrational. Yes, just because you’re mad about something doesn’t mean that it makes sense, or is practical in any sense. The fact is that the devs can’t make the sky blue and not blue at the same time. and yet people will be angry at others for not doing their crazy bidding Whether you’re factually wrong, the solution you propose is worse than the problem, or you’re upset over something that can’t be understood by the rational mind, what you want isn’t correct.. There’s nothing to gain from talking to someone who is insane, because sanity is a per-requisite of meaningful communication.

#4: Your complaints are illegitimate. There’s a lot of vitriol leveled at the devs not because what they’ve done is necessary bad, but because something is bad for you. Even if other players want things differently, you are there with your own uncompromising desires, dead set on trying to make the world yours instead of better. Sometimes you have an ulterior motive, sometimes you’re just trolling, other times you just don’t care what other people think. Either way, your “feedback” is flailing wildly in a crowded room: it goes nowhere and just makes people more upset.

#5: Your complaints are a minority. Angered players speak out, content players don’t. While it seems like everyone agrees with you, in fact it is an echo chamber where the same 10 people just yell at their own shadows for days on end. Ultimately, to change any complaint you have it takes resources, and if there are a handful of cantankerous players irate over something, it doesn’t mean it is worth dealing with. The quality of updates and changes is subjective, so if you find yourself constantly out-voted on the matter, accept the horrible fate that your life will be filled with nothing going your way.

#6: The devs already speak with you, but you aren’t satisfied with the exact manner or how much. It is a goalpost that can be constantly moved, so to the belligerent mind can never be sated. Yes, the emotional black holes out there are all aflutter when something isn’t said fast enough, or where they want it to be said, or whether enough is said or not. No matter how much of a dialogue is trying to be casually opened, the fact is that you will always be looking to punch a gift horse in the mouth..

In short: You aren’t worth talking to. Now, I’m going to add this on to the end:

#7: The devs are people, too. Fact is, the devs don’t know what the hell they’re doing. Most people don’t. Most things in life are gambles. They’re going to make mistakes, and they’ll feel bad about their mistakes, or they won’t realize that something is a mistake. Thing is, you’re the worst person to tell them their mistakes. For the 6 reasons above, but also because you’ve assigned a air of mysticism around their work, and thus see anything that doesn’t suit you as the actions of a defiant spirit of some kind. The whole “fester with rage in their public spaces for weeks on end” is not a good look. It is not always going to be immediate that a problem even exists.

This is the internet, and people are always making a big drama about something, and just because you’ve gone on to the forums and found a dozen people who agree with you doesn’t mean it is an issue even worth mentioning.

If I didn’t feel it worth mentioning I wouldn’t mention it, thus it is worth mentioning.

You can’t be placated. If you’ve ever tried to reason with a tantruming child, you’d find it is impossible. And of course, being an online video game, the majority of complaints come from just that. The playerbase is young, full of hormones, and also full of life’s little frustrations over how unpopular in school they all are. You aren’t looking for a solution, you just want to be angered by something. The reason why the devs won’t subject themselves to your every beck and call is because it would only fan the flames. Calm down, kid!

Thinking we actually care about not being popular, good one. The one exaggerating now is you. Yes people are looking for solutions.

Your complaints are irrational.

So complaining about poor matchmaking, class imbalance, bunker meta, too much CC for small nodes, and some classes being underpowered is irrational now?

Your complaints are illegitimate. There’s a lot of vitriol leveled at the devs not because what they’ve done is necessary bad, but because something is bad for you.

If it’s “only” bad for me then the complaint is legitimate to and for me. If they nerf content for example it’s not just bad for me but bad for everyone because the skill cap is lowered thus the rewards for that content have less value now being more obtainable. Or when they reduced softwood requirements from 4 to 2. It’s overall bad because now everyone makes less money from spiritwood and softwood planks drastically reduced in price. Lower resources needed for something means more of the finished product in circulation.

*Ultimately, to change any complaint you have it takes resources, and if there are a handful of cantankerous players irate over something, it doesn’t mean it is worth dealing with. *

Let me put it this way: if a bunch of doctors warned people about a certain thing or behavior causing harm in some way they’d warn the public not to do those things. They are experts who know better. Likewise, hardcore gamers have many years of experience playing games so know what to expect from certain decisions.

I want to start with the confession that I have no idea what a dev really does or if it his or her responsibility to talk with customers and how much power actually rests in his or her hands in GW2 to make things happen.

To be honest, I don´t even care about who is responsible for what, and it sounds to me rather a thing for the customer service if people are not satisfied and want to voice their complains.
At every place I worked, customer was king. Even if he was unreasonable, stupid, stubborn, immature, illogical or a “noble” mixture of all these attributes, customer was always king.

To further highlight how precarious that situation here is:
The german forum has some kind of comminucation officer or at least it had one when I last checked it. I don´t know if the guy got a paycheck, but if he did, his sole job should have been to present the company line to his kings, aka the customers. There were meeting with him, and he took the time to listen to staged questions which is a travesty itself if you ask me, a staged and massively preplaned meeting with a guy that was there to answer our questions and get feedback. And although he was a nice guy, he was brutally gaged from the upper management with everything that was halfway important as well. Mind you nobody asked for critical date in the like of “how much money did you make” “are gains up or down”. No, we discussed there about absolutely basic and in game questions. I don´t know what this is, but is not customer reply service.
And no, a “we are aware of the problem, thank you for caling us” email is not a viable customer service. It is a bot reply, and not even a very clever one.

Tl:Dr Customer service is crucial, even on the Internet, As long as someone receives a paycheck to listen to complains and bring them to the upper management, I expect him or her to do exactly that while he is on duty.

I don’t think devs have an obligation talking to us, but some communication is good. Developers are still employees so have people above to answer to. Most complaints I see are simply constructive criticism or important observations.

Ha! I can see this framed and on the walls of Anet offices. Nice find

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’ve been around the sun a few dozen times. I can give some insight as to why it is this happens. AKA, the harsh and terrible truth as to why devs won’t talk to you. Not a direct “you”, but the “you” in the general sense, so don’t take it personally.

#1: You blow things out of proportion. A change doesn’t actually have to be big before people will moan endlessly about it. This is the internet, and people are always making a big drama about something, and just because you’ve gone on to the forums and found a dozen people who agree with you doesn’t mean it is an issue even worth mentioning. You’ll get over it, and if you don’t get over it, bye. We don’t want you here.

#2: You can’t be placated. If you’ve ever tried to reason with a tantruming child, you’d find it is impossible. And of course, being an online videogame, the majority of complaints come from just that. The playerbase is young, full of hormones, and also full of life’s little frustrations over how unpopular in school they all are. You aren’t looking for a solution, you just want to be angered by something. The reason why the devs won’t subject themselves to your every beck and call is because it would only fan the flames. Calm down, kid!

#3: Your complaints are irrational. Yes, just because you’re mad about something doesn’t mean that it makes sense, or is practical in any sense. The fact is that the devs can’t make the sky blue and not blue at the same time. and yet people will be angry at others for not doing their crazy bidding Whether you’re factually wrong, the solution you propose is worse than the problem, or you’re upset over something that can’t be understood by the rational mind, what you want isn’t correct.. There’s nothing to gain from talking to someone who is insane, because sanity is a per-requisite of meaningful communication.

#4: Your complaints are illegitimate. There’s a lot of vitriol leveled at the devs not because what they’ve done is necessary bad, but because something is bad for you. Even if other players want things differently, you are there with your own uncompromising desires, dead set on trying to make the world yours instead of better. Sometimes you have an ulterior motive, sometimes you’re just trolling, other times you just don’t care what other people think. Either way, your “feedback” is flailing wildly in a crowded room: it goes nowhere and just makes people more upset.

#5: Your complaints are a minority. Angered players speak out, content players don’t. While it seems like everyone agrees with you, in fact it is an echo chamber where the same 10 people just yell at their own shadows for days on end. Ultimately, to change any complaint you have it takes resources, and if there are a handful of cantankerous players irate over something, it doesn’t mean it is worth dealing with. The quality of updates and changes is subjective, so if you find yourself constantly out-voted on the matter, accept the horrible fate that your life will be filled with nothing going your way.

#6: The devs already speak with you, but you aren’t satisfied with the exact manner or how much. It is a goalpost that can be constantly moved, so to the belligerent mind can never be sated. Yes, the emotional black holes out there are all aflutter when something isn’t said fast enough, or where they want it to be said, or whether enough is said or not. No matter how much of a dialogue is trying to be casually opened, the fact is that you will always be looking to punch a gift horse in the mouth..

In short: You aren’t worth talking to. Now, I’m going to add this on to the end:

#7: The devs are people, too. Fact is, the devs don’t know what the hell they’re doing. Most people don’t. Most things in life are gambles. They’re going to make mistakes, and they’ll feel bad about their mistakes, or they won’t realize that something is a mistake. Thing is, you’re the worst person to tell them their mistakes. For the 6 reasons above, but also because you’ve assigned a air of mysticism around their work, and thus see anything that doesn’t suit you as the actions of a defiant spirit of some kind. The whole “fester with rage in their public spaces for weeks on end” is not a good look. It is not always going to be immediate that a problem even exists.

Wow I love you and want to have your little spider babies. May I steal this for reposting in other venues?

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’ve been around the sun a few dozen times. I can give some insight as to why it is this happens. AKA, the harsh and terrible truth as to why devs won’t talk to you. Not a direct “you”, but the “you” in the general sense, so don’t take it personally.

#1: You blow things out of proportion. A change doesn’t actually have to be big before people will moan endlessly about it. This is the internet, and people are always making a big drama about something, and just because you’ve gone on to the forums and found a dozen people who agree with you doesn’t mean it is an issue even worth mentioning. You’ll get over it, and if you don’t get over it, bye. We don’t want you here.

#2: You can’t be placated. If you’ve ever tried to reason with a tantruming child, you’d find it is impossible. And of course, being an online videogame, the majority of complaints come from just that. The playerbase is young, full of hormones, and also full of life’s little frustrations over how unpopular in school they all are. You aren’t looking for a solution, you just want to be angered by something. The reason why the devs won’t subject themselves to your every beck and call is because it would only fan the flames. Calm down, kid!

#3: Your complaints are irrational. Yes, just because you’re mad about something doesn’t mean that it makes sense, or is practical in any sense. The fact is that the devs can’t make the sky blue and not blue at the same time. and yet people will be angry at others for not doing their crazy bidding Whether you’re factually wrong, the solution you propose is worse than the problem, or you’re upset over something that can’t be understood by the rational mind, what you want isn’t correct.. There’s nothing to gain from talking to someone who is insane, because sanity is a per-requisite of meaningful communication.

#4: Your complaints are illegitimate. There’s a lot of vitriol leveled at the devs not because what they’ve done is necessary bad, but because something is bad for you. Even if other players want things differently, you are there with your own uncompromising desires, dead set on trying to make the world yours instead of better. Sometimes you have an ulterior motive, sometimes you’re just trolling, other times you just don’t care what other people think. Either way, your “feedback” is flailing wildly in a crowded room: it goes nowhere and just makes people more upset.

#5: Your complaints are a minority. Angered players speak out, content players don’t. While it seems like everyone agrees with you, in fact it is an echo chamber where the same 10 people just yell at their own shadows for days on end. Ultimately, to change any complaint you have it takes resources, and if there are a handful of cantankerous players irate over something, it doesn’t mean it is worth dealing with. The quality of updates and changes is subjective, so if you find yourself constantly out-voted on the matter, accept the horrible fate that your life will be filled with nothing going your way.

#6: The devs already speak with you, but you aren’t satisfied with the exact manner or how much. It is a goalpost that can be constantly moved, so to the belligerent mind can never be sated. Yes, the emotional black holes out there are all aflutter when something isn’t said fast enough, or where they want it to be said, or whether enough is said or not. No matter how much of a dialogue is trying to be casually opened, the fact is that you will always be looking to punch a gift horse in the mouth..

In short: You aren’t worth talking to. Now, I’m going to add this on to the end:

#7: The devs are people, too. Fact is, the devs don’t know what the hell they’re doing. Most people don’t. Most things in life are gambles. They’re going to make mistakes, and they’ll feel bad about their mistakes, or they won’t realize that something is a mistake. Thing is, you’re the worst person to tell them their mistakes. For the 6 reasons above, but also because you’ve assigned a air of mysticism around their work, and thus see anything that doesn’t suit you as the actions of a defiant spirit of some kind. The whole “fester with rage in their public spaces for weeks on end” is not a good look. It is not always going to be immediate that a problem even exists.

Yeah, none of your arguments work in the real world. Go and look up actual successful companies and see how they handle their own community, it’s a completely different beast.

Not everything boils down to the community being whiny, that’s incredibly narrow-minded, and if that’s the logic ANet follows, then that would explain a lot of things.

I stand 100% with Blood Red Arachnid.

While there are legitimate complaints to be made, this and in fact pretty much all gaming communities have lost all sense of proportion in terms of what they can expect from developers. Shrill, unreasonable and ill-informed complaints far outweigh reasonable feedback and no matter what you do, people find a way to be outraged.

Gamers as a group are doing an excellent job of living up to all the worst stereotypes about us and if I were a game developer I would long ago have given up on communicating with such a toxic group of people, and would be just keeping my head down and doing my job, as the Anet developers are doing.

The fact is that the quality of feedback on game forums is exceptionally poor. I’m a software developer and I very seldom see anything that would be useful to an actual dev outside the bug report forums. People think that having an idea about what could be improved is the same as having a solution but that’s so far from the truth. Software development is complex and hard, and if you don’t have the training and access to the code base you can’t possibly have an informed opinion, that’s a simple fact.

I always find it interesting how when I write something in generality, that players will take offense to very specific things. Anyway, I digress.

I’ve worked in customer service before. Everyone I know has. It is like a right of passage, really. And everyone I know has found it to be among the most soul crushing experience ever. Essentially you end up getting screwed from both ends: your company treats you like dirt because you’re a replaceable cog, and the customers treat you like dirt because you’re a replaceable face representing that same company. It is some kind of agoraphobic nightmare to have endless people you’ve never seen before run up and instantly hate you.

At least in real life you get the benefit of a face to face interaction, which will soften the rage. But here, this is basically being in perpetual argument with the youtube comment section.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’ve been around the sun a few dozen times. I can give some insight as to why it is this happens. AKA, the harsh and terrible truth as to why devs won’t talk to you. Not a direct “you”, but the “you” in the general sense, so don’t take it personally.

#1: You blow things out of proportion. A change doesn’t actually have to be big before people will moan endlessly about it. This is the internet, and people are always making a big drama about something, and just because you’ve gone on to the forums and found a dozen people who agree with you doesn’t mean it is an issue even worth mentioning. You’ll get over it, and if you don’t get over it, bye. We don’t want you here.

#2: You can’t be placated. If you’ve ever tried to reason with a tantruming child, you’d find it is impossible. And of course, being an online videogame, the majority of complaints come from just that. The playerbase is young, full of hormones, and also full of life’s little frustrations over how unpopular in school they all are. You aren’t looking for a solution, you just want to be angered by something. The reason why the devs won’t subject themselves to your every beck and call is because it would only fan the flames. Calm down, kid!

#3: Your complaints are irrational. Yes, just because you’re mad about something doesn’t mean that it makes sense, or is practical in any sense. The fact is that the devs can’t make the sky blue and not blue at the same time. and yet people will be angry at others for not doing their crazy bidding Whether you’re factually wrong, the solution you propose is worse than the problem, or you’re upset over something that can’t be understood by the rational mind, what you want isn’t correct.. There’s nothing to gain from talking to someone who is insane, because sanity is a per-requisite of meaningful communication.

#4: Your complaints are illegitimate. There’s a lot of vitriol leveled at the devs not because what they’ve done is necessary bad, but because something is bad for you. Even if other players want things differently, you are there with your own uncompromising desires, dead set on trying to make the world yours instead of better. Sometimes you have an ulterior motive, sometimes you’re just trolling, other times you just don’t care what other people think. Either way, your “feedback” is flailing wildly in a crowded room: it goes nowhere and just makes people more upset.

#5: Your complaints are a minority. Angered players speak out, content players don’t. While it seems like everyone agrees with you, in fact it is an echo chamber where the same 10 people just yell at their own shadows for days on end. Ultimately, to change any complaint you have it takes resources, and if there are a handful of cantankerous players irate over something, it doesn’t mean it is worth dealing with. The quality of updates and changes is subjective, so if you find yourself constantly out-voted on the matter, accept the horrible fate that your life will be filled with nothing going your way.

#6: The devs already speak with you, but you aren’t satisfied with the exact manner or how much. It is a goalpost that can be constantly moved, so to the belligerent mind can never be sated. Yes, the emotional black holes out there are all aflutter when something isn’t said fast enough, or where they want it to be said, or whether enough is said or not. No matter how much of a dialogue is trying to be casually opened, the fact is that you will always be looking to punch a gift horse in the mouth..

In short: You aren’t worth talking to. Now, I’m going to add this on to the end:

#7: The devs are people, too. Fact is, the devs don’t know what the hell they’re doing. Most people don’t. Most things in life are gambles. They’re going to make mistakes, and they’ll feel bad about their mistakes, or they won’t realize that something is a mistake. Thing is, you’re the worst person to tell them their mistakes. For the 6 reasons above, but also because you’ve assigned a air of mysticism around their work, and thus see anything that doesn’t suit you as the actions of a defiant spirit of some kind. The whole “fester with rage in their public spaces for weeks on end” is not a good look. It is not always going to be immediate that a problem even exists.

Congratulations! What a complaint! Way to attack everyone! This has to be a record.
It perfectly displays posters lack of understanding, including yours.

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I always find it interesting how when I write something in generality, that players will take offense to very specific things. Anyway, I digress.

I’ve worked in customer service before. Everyone I know has. It is like a right of passage, really. And everyone I know has found it to be among the most soul crushing experience ever. Essentially you end up getting screwed from both ends: your company treats you like dirt because you’re a replaceable cog, and the customers treat you like dirt because you’re a replaceable face representing that same company. It is some kind of agoraphobic nightmare to have endless people you’ve never seen before run up and instantly hate you.

At least in real life you get the benefit of a face to face interaction, which will soften the rage. But here, this is basically being in perpetual argument with the youtube comment section.

I have the highest of regards for anyone who sits in a position like that. Whatever they get, they are without a doubt underpaid if they work in a company that gets complains very often. I would most certainly not want to work in the customer department.

Bt please tell me, how many customer service workers you know simply cross their arms with a pounting stance and say nothing until the complains hopefully go away? Some of course get a nervous breakdown at some point, but then people have to be on shift and do something else or don´t apply to such a job in the first place.

technophebe.7631:

I stand 100% with Blood Red Arachnid.

While there are legitimate complaints to be made, this and in fact pretty much all gaming communities have lost all sense of proportion in terms of what they can expect from developers. Shrill, unreasonable and ill-informed complaints far outweigh reasonable feedback and no matter what you do, people find a way to be outraged.

Gamers as a group are doing an excellent job of living up to all the worst stereotypes about us and if I were a game developer I would long ago have given up on communicating with such a toxic group of people, and would be just keeping my head down and doing my job, as the Anet developers are doing.

The fact is that the quality of feedback on game forums is exceptionally poor. I’m a software developer and I very seldom see anything that would be useful to an actual dev outside the bug report forums. People think that having an idea about what could be improved is the same as having a solution but that’s so far from the truth. Software development is complex and hard, and if you don’t have the training and access to the code base you can’t possibly have an informed opinion, that’s a simple fact.

And what does any of this have to do with class balance or the ridiculous amount of materials needed for something? The code is ok, the paramters in it suck, though.

Well Tim would know all about a community wants… except replace steps 3-5 with ‘angrily berate anyone who remotely criticises your thing’ and step 6 with ‘repeat steps 3-5 until people get tired of arguing with you’

Berelious.3290:

Blood Red Arachnid.2493:

I’ve been around the sun a few dozen times. I can give some insight as to why it is this happens. AKA, the harsh and terrible truth as to why devs won’t talk to you. Not a direct “you”, but the “you” in the general sense, so don’t take it personally.

#1: You blow things out of proportion. A change doesn’t actually have to be big before people will moan endlessly about it. This is the internet, and people are always making a big drama about something, and just because you’ve gone on to the forums and found a dozen people who agree with you doesn’t mean it is an issue even worth mentioning. You’ll get over it, and if you don’t get over it, bye. We don’t want you here.

#2: You can’t be placated. If you’ve ever tried to reason with a tantruming child, you’d find it is impossible. And of course, being an online videogame, the majority of complaints come from just that. The playerbase is young, full of hormones, and also full of life’s little frustrations over how unpopular in school they all are. You aren’t looking for a solution, you just want to be angered by something. The reason why the devs won’t subject themselves to your every beck and call is because it would only fan the flames. Calm down, kid!

#3: Your complaints are irrational. Yes, just because you’re mad about something doesn’t mean that it makes sense, or is practical in any sense. The fact is that the devs can’t make the sky blue and not blue at the same time. and yet people will be angry at others for not doing their crazy bidding Whether you’re factually wrong, the solution you propose is worse than the problem, or you’re upset over something that can’t be understood by the rational mind, what you want isn’t correct.. There’s nothing to gain from talking to someone who is insane, because sanity is a per-requisite of meaningful communication.

#4: Your complaints are illegitimate. There’s a lot of vitriol leveled at the devs not because what they’ve done is necessary bad, but because something is bad for you. Even if other players want things differently, you are there with your own uncompromising desires, dead set on trying to make the world yours instead of better. Sometimes you have an ulterior motive, sometimes you’re just trolling, other times you just don’t care what other people think. Either way, your “feedback” is flailing wildly in a crowded room: it goes nowhere and just makes people more upset.

#5: Your complaints are a minority. Angered players speak out, content players don’t. While it seems like everyone agrees with you, in fact it is an echo chamber where the same 10 people just yell at their own shadows for days on end. Ultimately, to change any complaint you have it takes resources, and if there are a handful of cantankerous players irate over something, it doesn’t mean it is worth dealing with. The quality of updates and changes is subjective, so if you find yourself constantly out-voted on the matter, accept the horrible fate that your life will be filled with nothing going your way.

#6: The devs already speak with you, but you aren’t satisfied with the exact manner or how much. It is a goalpost that can be constantly moved, so to the belligerent mind can never be sated. Yes, the emotional black holes out there are all aflutter when something isn’t said fast enough, or where they want it to be said, or whether enough is said or not. No matter how much of a dialogue is trying to be casually opened, the fact is that you will always be looking to punch a gift horse in the mouth..

In short: You aren’t worth talking to. Now, I’m going to add this on to the end:

#7: The devs are people, too. Fact is, the devs don’t know what the hell they’re doing. Most people don’t. Most things in life are gambles. They’re going to make mistakes, and they’ll feel bad about their mistakes, or they won’t realize that something is a mistake. Thing is, you’re the worst person to tell them their mistakes. For the 6 reasons above, but also because you’ve assigned a air of mysticism around their work, and thus see anything that doesn’t suit you as the actions of a defiant spirit of some kind. The whole “fester with rage in their public spaces for weeks on end” is not a good look. It is not always going to be immediate that a problem even exists.

I like this guy/girl. Good head on their shoulders. It’s practical, logical, and makes sense… problem is it’s precisely the kind of thing haters hate. Still like though.

Not really. Smart yes, wise no. What I see here is intellectual arrogance mostly. The implicit assumption is that off all the millions of people involved in GW2 (i.e., players and developers), apparently all the adults work at ArenaNet and everyone else is a child. I’ve been around the sun 50 times myself and from what I’ve seen ANet’s earned a fair amount of the ire that’s been directed their way.

HtFde.3856:

And what does any of this have to do with class balance or the ridiculous amount of materials needed for something? The code is ok, the paramters in it suck, though.

What it has to do with class balance is that you don’t understand how difficult it is to balance a game or implement that balance in code.

What it had to do with materials cost is that you don’t understand how to balance the in game economy of a F2P game with the real world need to make profits, or how difficult it is to translate that understanding into code and parameters.

Well this cartoon can be toned by the 1st two frames.

Having the 1st frame shows it’s the devs’ actions that are the causation of the reaction.

Omitting the 1st frame would show an “unstable” (can’t think of appropriate word atm) consumer population.

Having the 1st frame really sheds a negative light on the devs.

technophebe.7631:

HtFde.3856:

And what does any of this have to do with class balance or the ridiculous amount of materials needed for something? The code is ok, the paramters in it suck, though.

What it has to do with class balance is that you don’t understand how difficult it is to balance a game or implement that balance in code.

What it had to do with materials cost is that you don’t understand how to balance the in game economy of a F2P game with the real world need to make profits, or how difficult it is to translate that understanding into code and parameters.

What I do understand, however, is that if a thing is broken you can either repair it or replace it. What is a pretty bad approach is to just sit it out and hope that the problems will go away.

Of course – if I come from the viewpoint that everything I do is perfect and that there are no relevant complaints … then that is an understandable attitude – people are just playing wrong, nothing wrong with the code – stupid people like me call that attitude arrogance.

There are a lot of games that have issues as well but none as grave as I see in GW2. Like … my favourite example from day … 10? … into the game all those years ago: Cloth acquisition. A game that has its best and most efficient method of acquisition for linen in players porting from a karma merchant to the mystic forge for hours on end is broken.

Hard to code? Not really … create creatures/plants that can be harvested for cloth/leather. Make those like normal node and you can control number/map and respawn of the “node”. The problem is to get it into a developer’s head who thinks the way he has implemented things is just perfect and all of those karma→forge people are doing it wrong and are probably looking at a nerf rather than FIXING the supply problem.

Every choice the devs have made in this game has been perfect. They never make a mistake. Any rational person would never make a complaint on this forum. This isn’t a business these are people. How dare anyone voice any criticism. Why would a rational person expect feedback from devs as they have already made the perfect decisions for the game?

Why would the devs create a forum since the game is made up of nothing but perfect decisions? They understood that irrational people need something to express their nonsensical rage. The adults have given the children a playroom to take out their angst.

Remember, devs always make perfect decisions…. Rational…… People who say there is any problem with the game….. Irrational….

lol

Arrow.4619:

Not really. Smart yes, wise no. What I see here is intellectual arrogance mostly. The implicit assumption is that off all the millions of people involved in GW2 (i.e., players and developers), apparently all the adults work at ArenaNet and everyone else is a child. I’ve been around the sun 50 times myself and from what I’ve seen ANet’s earned a fair amount of the ire that’s been directed their way.

I’d call it wit more than anything. The ability to see plainly makes someone rational, not wise. There is quite a few incorrect assumptions going around, so I will go into depth a bit more.

A)This does not mean that all complaints are illegitimate. Indeed, there are many criticisms that I myself hold of Anet (and NCsoft). What it does mean is that a lot of complaints are inflamatory, illogical, illegitimate, selfish, trolling, and in such regard that swift + immediate responses will just make things worse.

B)It does not matter if you think your particular complaint falls into these categories or not. What does matter is if Arenanet thinks your complaint falls into these categories. It isn’t some methodical decision, where there’s a chart of how to dismiss complaints, and there’s a guy working in the basement of a building sorting them out. As a person, a developer is likely to dismiss something, even a well founded issue, as one of the above, then disregard the feedback without a second thought. As a company, Arenanet is subject to group-think issues, and will constantly reassure themselves that their decisions are right. If not immediately, then eventually after everyone has “fixed” themselves to the new system.

C)The hotly debated topic about age differences is something I wish wasn’t true. But, every once in awhile I will hear of the statistics regarding the age of the average user of various online services (youtube, facebook, etc), and it is always young skewing, if not by the number of hits then by the degree of usage. The thing with kids is that they have the free time to dedicate to these games. More importantly, they have the free time to dedicate to hating the game.

This really feeds the flames, as empathy and compromise are not the hallmarks of immaturity. Drama and ill-conceived notions are. It isn’t a particular insult aimed toward anyone, as much as it is the fact that children are insufferable and their presence takes away from the room.

Sure, them petulant, spoilt kids – and drama queens – are a nuisance; but their contributions are easily separated from the contributions of the more reasonable folks. It’s not really on for the company to tar everybody with the same brush, refusing to communicate with everybody.

Problem is that these companies, and their legion of sophisticated apologists, seem to want to have it both ways. MMOs are very carefully designed to get players to emotionally invest in the game; that being the mechanism used to get players to financially invest.

So it’s:-

Emotionally invest in the game world, its vibe, and its lore.

Emotionally and intellectually invest in the game mechanics; spending tens, hundreds or even thousands of hours and dollars/pounds/etc grinding or paying for that top end gear for max performance.

Emotionally invest in your characters, spending tens, hundreds or even thousands of dollars/etc buying them a constant supply of pretty and cool things from the cash shop.

All is well.

Buuut, if the company makes a decision that negatively impacts that world/vibe/lore, or the game mechanics/balance; then all of a sudden it’s ‘Stop emotionally investing in the game (ie ’stop complaining’); what the heck’s wrong with you?! Entitled, tssk!’

Humans not work like that.

There are too many factors that can go into a decision or statement by a gaming company.

Take for example, the first panel. Devs shouldn’t make promises, EVER. Harsh I know, but its the cold truth because if it comes down to it, they are gonna break it. “We won’t do the thing!” until later in development they realize they have to do it, or suffer loss of sales or further problems down the road in development. Sure, they can try to avoid it as best as they can, but if there is only one option, there is only one option.

The next few are all about discussion. True, devs should inform players more on whats going on, and stop with this secret BS. We know, you don’t want other developers copying your stuff, you want to be “first” in showing off new toys before others quickly copy it and implement it into their systems. But when you reveal the new item, post a blog, then shut up about it when its not working or something is wrong, THEN there’s the problem.

At the same time, the community needs to understand that mistakes can happen and should help more than spit vile. Look, I don’t believe an MMO dev team goes out of their way to destroy their game. Everything is done in their eyes to make it better. If it goes live and is found to be an oops, then the community needs to say “you messed up, here’s why, here’s a fix.” then leave it be. The devs then need to reply and have a conversation when possible (cause they need to work). The CDIs were great for this.

Then the community needs to sit back and wait, because code in an mmo is like a Cube made of spider webs. Reach in there and pluck out the one strand, without breaking or touching the other strands. Its not always an easy process.

That’s basically it. But who am I kidding, everything has to be “NOW NOW NOW” in today’s time

Yeah, I thought that the cartoon was complete garbage to be honest. In addition to the not-depicted previous years of the company doing everything in its power to make players emotionally invest, too much depends on what “the thing” is.

If the lack of ‘Thing X’ is the one and only thing that separates ‘MMO A’ from ‘MMOs B-Z’, and is therefore extremely pivotal in folks’ choice to play ‘MMO A’ specifically for years… then the company breaking its promise and deciding to do ‘Thing X’ after all is a really big deal.

Also missing from the cartoon is the person who ’didn’t give them some money once’, but has given a small fortune and a lot of love; and doesn’t want to ‘poo all over the change’ but wants to offer reasonable feedback – also being ignored.