Guild Wars 2

It’s not bad. It’s face-paced and engaging when you’re fighting other players and a couple of bosses and NPCs. It’s a little dull in PvE, but I won’t go into that because it’s a HUGE discussion that I’m not ready to begin in this single post.

It’s not that deep though. It’s literally nothing except interrupts, damage and conditions. GW1 combat was fathoms thicker in how you had to manage your energy and also had access to things like Hexes and Enchantments that (in addition to often having passive effects applied throughout their duration) had begin and end effects that could trigger on enemy and allied players (including yourself) that hinged on various conditions. GW1 combat was crazy deep, especially when you rolled a spellcaster.

Silentstorm.7531:

Well here’s a fact because people seems to compare this game to others. When guild wars came out the next expansion wow came with actually lowered the amount of skills you can have and use on the bars. Rift’s expansion actually did the same thing too. Showing that maybe Anet actually was on to something. If two of its biggest market share competitors copied it so blatantly.

Interesting fact because WoW was released in november of 2004 when GW was released april 2005, BC didn’t hit WoW until ‘07 and in the case you are talking about when guild wars 2 came out, MoP did not lower the amount of skills you can use… my bars didn’t change much at all except for some abilities being made passive and I got new skills to replace those so..

Silentstorm.7531:

Well here’s a fact because people seems to compare this game to others. When guild wars came out the next expansion wow came with actually lowered the amount of skills you can have and use on the bars. Rift’s expansion actually did the same thing too. Showing that maybe Anet actually was on to something. If two of its biggest market share competitors copied it so blatantly.

I bet you’re going to say that EQ1 copied this too??

AS I recall, EQ1 only had 9 skills, and more when you traited AA’s for it, however, you have a WIDE variety of abilities to chose from and could even gasp macro! spell swaps for situations (like ports). Then Gw1 came out years later and you could only use 8 abilities too, and gasp you had 100’s of abilties to chose from.

Other games aren’t copying GW2, GW2 is doing what it feels is best. I don’t agree with skills tied to weapons, but limited skill bar space, isn’t new age invented by GW2 or even Arena Net for that matter.

As for Rift and WoW following this example…maybe its because they are listening to the feedback from their customers on the forums saying…really?? 100 skills at my fingertips at any given time??? THAT’S TOO MUCH, you must consolidate.

I, however, like having all the skills I have learned throughout the game available to me when I want/need them, in a game where it is designed. I know GW1, EQ1, and GW2 are not designed like this, but for those other games…the game was balanced around all these skills being available.

Neither system is better or worse. What that does for this depth of combat discussion, I have no clue. The game was built and balanced around 10 skills, those others weren’t. It doesn’t matter if those other games change their models, it is irrelevant to any depth of discussion here.

As for lack of depth…I gave my example in another thread and I don’t wish to repeat it all here. Suffice to say, it has a lot to do with PvE mobs. You either treat them like a sPvP encounter, or don’t and you can still win, no matter how many buttons you wind up pushing. There is no fear of death, unless you gather up too many for yoiu to possibly take out on your own. And lack of skill pushing. Once you hit that proverbial ceiling, you can’t push any higher, and the skill cap on that ceiling is set so low that when you reach it, you look around and find that everyone else is there with you.

I find the Lack of Depth Compared to GW1 is huge..

I’m currently stuck with 1-5 skills i cannot change them to different spots i cannot supplement them with others, i can swap to another forced 1-5 skills.. the whole mechanic feels like a console game (Fighter game maybe?).

While the 6-10 skills can be swapped and changed many are broken and are pretty gimmicky / useless bar the occasional fluke, these skills are so limited and geared for sPvP and WvW its become rather boring for me..the odd useless Elite (60sec and each skill locks you to the spot….looking at you “Become skills”) and racial skills are insanely bias in depth..

Also not seeing many Combo Videos with Classes such as Engineer or Ranger, funny how everyone raves about Guardian but there are 5 Races and 8 Professions..too much unbalance doesn’t help the depth of game play either..

Graill.8596:

There is nothing new about the combat in this MMO. Nothing innovative, and certainly nothing futuristic or groundbreaking that would influence other manufacturers of MMO’s to copy. Been there done that, thousands of times.

Though this MMO has the single most amount of skill exploits and bugs i have ever seen or “participated” in. I guess they win an award for that.

No one said it was new but wow shortened it’s skills in the same manner almost blatantly like GW2. If you look at combat in wow now it’s nothing like it was in cata days. And they can deny it all they like that was a direct effect and copying of GW2. Rift on the other hand did it more secretive. Rather than insta patch it in with the expansion. It slowly did it over the course of a month or two. So to the not paying attention eye you wouldn’t notice.

But someone like me who quit and came back I immediately noticed it. The jury is out on if its yay or nay. And our opinions don’t really matter sales and subs do. The same goes for this game. And fiscal wise this game is sitting nicely.

Zeldain.5710:

It’s not a good combat system.

Very blant combat system

Here’s another example of someone using combos and making combat fun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2_GXr9o-Us

Silentstorm.7531:

You guys do realize most mmorpg’s you only use 5 buttons anyway. Take wow and rift for example. You may have 100 skills but you at the end of the day in fighting a boss. Only use on average 3-7 buttons if that. Only thing GW2 did was get rid of the useless skills. Say like If you had Lightning Bolt 1. Then when you hit max level you get Grand Lightning. Which is just Lightning Bolt 1 max level.

Don’t confuse depth with a over abundance a million buttons. I’ll give you another classic example. I play rift a cleric in the game. Rotation Bolt of Judgement,Vex, Sanction Heretic etc..The new max level came along BOJ was replaced with another bolt. Vex was replaced with another spells named scourge. What really happen there is the old skills got replace but you still have them. Which gives you a false thinking that you have a lot of choices. Almost every mmo is like that. Like I said GW2 is the first game not to smoke and mirrors it.

It’s not really a matter them getting rid of useless skills it’s them dumbing down combat in general. Rift and wow are horrible examples for comparing in my opinion.

Aion for example has always had a fun combat system. Take this video of a templar (tank class) pvp’ing.

He doesn’t really have too many skills on his bar, aside from buffs and such.

But the beauty of the combat system is that he can pick and choose while hes fighting what skills he should use.

For example if he knocks a player down he is granted a choice to use a powerful attack called break power, its a reactive skill that becomes available on KD that you have to hit within a couple seconds to trigger the attack… or he can use a aoe type attack instead…

Or perhaps he has a shield out and blocks, this triggers 4 new skill options on the fly which could trigger a 5th… they range from a shield stun, and 2 damage/threat increasers and the 4th is a powerful bash that has a chance to KD the opponent which could then trigger the ability to use another skill called break power or the aoe.

Normal attacks also have various options. Using xxx skill triggers 3 more choices 1 is a dps, 1 is a temporary damage absorbtion shield, 1 is a bleed.

Or say the templar gets stunned he again gets the option to break the stun which then triggers other options ranging from defensive to healing.

I could go on but you get the idea. GW2 has no combat depth in that regard.

Heres a few examples from Aion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY2kI9K5sOE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LASATCmeVRk

I like that games combat’s system… but dislike most everything else about it :P.

I’m not convinced. GW2 combat feels too much of a compromise. The endurance system for the dodging works for ranged because you are kiting to begin with. But with a melee weapon, you need to be in close range to do damage. Melee can be more efficient (read faster killing) , but it is a lot more difficult to do succesfully because of the endurance system. You have to time your few dodges for the most devastating attacks, while the rest of the fight you act like a punching bag (the oldschool booooring toe to toe defenseless exchange of hits), As melee you pay a lot more for a mistake then as ranged. But where is the reward for this extra risk?

I was hoping for a more twitchbased combat system when I learned about the dodging.

szar.9054:

Silentstorm.7531:

You guys do realize most mmorpg’s you only use 5 buttons anyway. Take wow and rift for example. You may have 100 skills but you at the end of the day in fighting a boss. Only use on average 3-7 buttons if that. Only thing GW2 did was get rid of the useless skills. Say like If you had Lightning Bolt 1. Then when you hit max level you get Grand Lightning. Which is just Lightning Bolt 1 max level.

Don’t confuse depth with a over abundance a million buttons. I’ll give you another classic example. I play rift a cleric in the game. Rotation Bolt of Judgement,Vex, Sanction Heretic etc..The new max level came along BOJ was replaced with another bolt. Vex was replaced with another spells named scourge. What really happen there is the old skills got replace but you still have them. Which gives you a false thinking that you have a lot of choices. Almost every mmo is like that. Like I said GW2 is the first game not to smoke and mirrors it.

Its not so much how many you will use in a fight, as how many there are to choose from and how many unique mechanics that are available. IN most other games you get hundreds of times more skill variety than Gw2 and that is before you get into roles in the trinity.

I agree here, it’s not about what buttons we will actually push, it’s that we have freedom, choice, and engagement in our character customization. I don’t like when other people think for me. I like when developers design systems that give the player choice and show depth because of all the options, regardless if they are outclassed or not. If designed well, a skill system can engage players for a long time regardless (GW1.) I fail to see why someone would be okay with other people deliberately restricting you or thinking for you just for their benefit and not for the game’s benefit. The hyper balanced, restrictive, stagnant skill design may be helping developers keep away from heavy balance work, but that poor design is also whats driving money away ( i’ve talked to a lot of players that left because the core gameplay is so shallow and grouping has no integrity or real inter-class synergy besides the combo tack on).

Yea you get skill choices that you won’t use. These games are all about min and max. If you don’t use a max skill. Then your probably just looking to be stylish. A example of that is say you have a lightning spell that does 800 damage and causes a chance to stun. And you have a fire spell that does 850 chance to burn.

And various other skills that roughly do the same damage. Odds are your going to do the highest unless your trying to look cute. What a lot of games did was take out the looking cute. Alot of choices don’t equal depth. Depth is the sum of all the parts of the game not just the skills. It wouldn’t matter how many skills we use if bosses and environment don’t care either way.

Now pvp if I string a combo together it has a effect on a human player. They will either give up panic run or do something defensive. If I do the same combo to a npc they won’t care same goes for a boss. So what i really think again needs to happen is the game needs to be harder and smarter. And throw everyone who whined about it in the beginning off a bridge.

Also don’t make me do a Aion video it’s really not that different from GW2. I still have a Gladiator there 55.I quit when they paid 2 win god armor I was done then.

Oh yea forgot to add. lvl80+ Mobs are boring as hell to fight. To put it short:

When on my own, most of the time it feels as if I am autoattacking the mob with my utility skills on cooldown, waiting for the mob to die. If I get adds, I will be fighting respawn too as encore.

Silentstorm.7531:

Yea you get skill choices that you won’t use. These games are all about min and max. If you don’t use a max skill. Then your probably just looking to be stylish. A example of that is say you have a lightning spell that does 800 damage and causes a chance to stun. And you have a fire spell that does 850 chance to burn.

And various other skills that roughly do the same damage. Odds are your going to do the highest unless your trying to look cute. What a lot of games did was take out the looking cute. Alot of choices don’t equal depth. Depth is the sum of all the parts of the game not just the skills. It wouldn’t matter how many skills we use if bosses and environment don’t care either way.

Now pvp if I string a combo together it has a effect on a human player. They will either give up panic run or do something defensive. If I do the same combo to a npc they won’t care same goes for a boss. So what i really think again needs to happen is the game needs to be harder and smarter. And throw everyone who whined about it in the beginning off a bridge.

Also don’t make me do a Aion video it’s really not that different from GW2. I still have a Gladiator there 55.I quit when they paid 2 win god armor I was done then.

Hey I hear ya on the Aion stuff… but their combat was fun because there were many choices in the heat of battle. Baiting a stun to get them to use a specific skill so you could trigger a skill of yours… or purposefully getting stunned for a heal. When to use a defensive move, that could trigger an offensive move….. and chaining these together in a rapid sequence…. that to me is depth…. well more depth then spamming 1 button and kiting/dodging lol. Because lets face it while we have 5 main skills…. they are very situational and most of the time you are just hitting 1 repeatedly while moving around and dodging.

People who complain about the lack of skills or skills tied to weapons, need to start thinking about why Anet implemented this design in the first place. I think it is quite obvious and definitely tied to PVP. The fact is that this addition adds more depth to combat, and requires players to think a lot more about their opponents and at the same time requires players to know all professions. Because this means that if I see a thief with dual daggers, I can know exactly what kind of abilities he has. I know that he will most likely use heartseeker in one way or another, so I as an elementalist will either bring up air 3 or water 4 or just prepare myself to dodge. Or if he were using pistol and dagger, I would know that he will try to get his c&d attack on me, so I’ll keep my distance and watch for the animation. Same goes for GS warriors and a lot of other professions.

This is why we hear an incessant amount of crying about warriors and thieves, because people don’t bother to learn the other professions and watch the enemies that they fight. Tying together weapons with skills was a brilliant move in my opinion, because it adds a nice amount of depth and makes the player focus less on the UI and more on the combat itself.

Dedalus.3065:

if I see a thief

Couldn’t help but laugh about this… cough culling cough

Dedalus.3065:

People who complain about the lack of skills or skills tied to weapons, need to start thinking about why Anet implemented this design in the first place. I think it is quite obvious and definitely tied to PVP. The fact is that this addition adds more depth to combat, and requires players to think a lot more about their opponents and at the same time requires players to know all professions. Because this means that if I see a thief with dual daggers, I can know exactly what kind of abilities he has. I know that he will most likely use heartseeker in one way or another, so I as an elementalist will either bring up air 3 or water 4 or just prepare myself to dodge. Or if he were using pistol and dagger, I would know that he will try to get his c&d attack on me, so I’ll keep my distance and watch for the animation. Same goes for GS warriors and a lot of other professions.

This is why we hear an incessant amount of crying about warriors and thieves, because people don’t bother to learn the other professions and watch the enemies that they fight. Tying together weapons with skills was a brilliant move in my opinion, because it adds a nice amount of depth and makes the player focus less on the UI and more on the combat itself.

That really has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

You can do the same in any other game lol.

Kiting and dodging does not = depth

A wide variety of skills that are equally viable depending on how you want to play and in depth combat based off those 5 skills = depth

Right now a majority of the class’s do most of their damage though 1 button. That isn’t in depth game play. Reading player movements and attack patterns and predicting them really has nothing to do with the game itself thats something you do in general as a pvp’er in any game like this.

For instance maybe as a ranger with the short bow if you hit 5 daze your opponent a chain skill appears allowing you to do something else, like maybe leap towards them allowing you to swap to a melee setup lay down some damage then hit 2 with your sword and leap back and swap back to a ranged weapon…. that is an example of adding depth to existing skills. And perhaps you could use skill points to get new chain skills based around different things… control, damage, defense, healing… etc etc.

Not suggesting more buttons suggesting chains off those 5 buttons that can be built upon to make play styles actually different and interesting.

There is alot of unique things they could do with a skill chain system that would be pretty neat.

Namu.5712:

Kiting and dodging does not = depth

Yes it does. Very simple way of showing this; if they did not add depth, then the game’s difficulty or complexity would be the same if they were removed. You would have to have limited brain capacity in order to think that this game would be equally complex if all targets would be immobile.

Namu.5712:

A wide variety of skills that are equally viable depending on how you want to play and in depth combat based off those 5 skills = depth

The term “equally viable” is ambiguous in this context. In what way is a skill equally viable to another? I mean there are skills that do the same damage as each other, and there are skills that cause conditions. How can these be equally viable? As in, the end damage is the same? Still not equally viable in certain contexts.

Namu.5712:

Right now a majority of the class’s do most of their damage though 1 button. That isn’t in depth game play.

I haven’t played all professions extensively, but I got this feeling from playing a ranger. However, as a d/d elementalist I never use my autoattacks.

Namu.5712:

Reading player movements and attack patterns and predicting them really has nothing to do with the game itself thats something you do in general as a pvp’er in any game like this.

Two scenarios, either skills are attached to weapons or they are not. This is a game design and something that has something to do with the game itself. Are you stating that combining skills with weapons does not reward an attentive player? Imagine if all thieves had the same model for all their weapon sets. You could not differentiate between a HS spammer or a CD thief just by looking at him. You must realize how this adds a level of complexity to the game, ergo depth.

Namu.5712:

For instance maybe as a ranger with the short bow if you hit 5 daze your opponent a chain skill appears allowing you to do something else, like maybe leap towards them allowing you to swap to a melee setup lay down some damage then hit 2 with your sword and leap back and swap back to a ranged weapon…. that is an example of adding depth to existing skills. And perhaps you could use skill points to get new chain skills based around different things… control, damage, defense, healing… etc etc.

Maybe you should actually watch the OPs video where he shows linking attacks in this game. It’s not like Tera where an icon pops up where it says “hit space”, you actually have to think of these yourself. Hmm… depth?

You seem to confuse agility with depth, Dedalus. We’re not talking about the same topic at all.

Depth is not about timing the use of a static pool of skills.
Depth is about thinking which skill you’d better use at a certain time, under a certain condition. Or “what can I do during each fight ?”
So right now, there’s as much depth as there are different skills that you can use on every global cooldown. Which means not a lot.
Maybe for the first 20 levels, having to learn 5 – 10 skills will force you to think, but once you understood them, as they have no real interdependancy, what you call “depth” quickly becomes “muscle memory”.

And yes I know about combos, and about elem/engi. I tried them all, but still, I feel there’s a huge lack of choices, of brain use. And repeatedly denying it by saying “yes there is depth” won’t change that feeling, sorry.

“Depth” is how many layers there are. If you feel ok with a game that offers as many layers as Bayonetta (which is a great action game imo), then fine.
But let’s also accept that a large majority of people are not at their first mmo, hence are expecting their 100th fight not to feel the same as their 52th, or their 101th.
Some people are in love with the MMO genre because you can stick to only one game, one world, one character… your character. Every evening.
This is the genre that is opened to the biggest time commitment. 80% of what we do in a MMO is fighting (and that’s absolutely fine). So the less combat choices there will be, the more this commitment will feel like a chore.

TL;DR : It’s not an action console game. It’s advertised as an MMO, built upon the MMO model. We’re supposed to fight thousands and thousands of times per character. So to avoid simple brainwashing, you’d better have tons of choices.

kineticdamage.6279:

You seem to confuse agility with depth, Dedalus. We’re not talking about the same topic at all.

Depth is not about timing the use of a static pool of skills.
Depth is about thinking which skill you’d better use at a certain time, under a certain condition. So right now, there’s as much depth as there are different skills on your bar. Which means not a lot. Maybe for the first 20 levels, having to learn 5 – 10 skills will force you to think, but once you understood them, as they have no real interdependancy, what you call “depth” quickly becomes “muscle memory”.

I respect your opinion, but I’m afraid I must disagree. I agree about your definition regarding depth, but you seem to limit the available conditions this game offers. Let’s stipulate that a condition is a summary of all factors given a time period. This is not simply limited to your available skills. Terrain, positioning, enemy skills and health, stamina, combo fields, distance, cooldowns etc. are all factors that you as a player must be aware of in order to be efficient and timing being one of them. In fact, your statement regarding depth implies that timing does add depth.

kineticdamage.6279:

Let’s admit than some people around are expecting their 100th fight not to feel the same as their 52th, or their 101th.
Especially people who have been playing MMOs for more than 2 years.

You know what increases the probability of a fight being the same as another? Conditions. Add more conditions and there is a greater probability that some of these won’t be the same under the next time period. Adding skills is one way of adding conditions, but not the only way, and only if the skills themselves are useful. But adding the action element to a game is exactly what makes a fight feel more dynamic; your adding a lot more variables since aiming and positioned affects them all.

If what you say has any value at all, it means that this game has no difficulty at all and all players are at the same skill level after they’ve gotten used to the mechanics. I would like you to seriously reconsider your statement, since then it would imply that I could take 5 people such as yourself and put you up against a team such as supersquad, and out of an infinite amount of games, you would end up with as many losses as wins. Do you honestly believe this to be true?

EDIT:
I saw that you had edited your post to include this:

TL;DR : It’s not an action console game. It’s advertised as an MMO, built upon the MMO model. We’re supposed to fight thousands and thousands of times per character. So to avoid simple brainwashing, you’d better have tons of choices.

This game has been incredibly open about its combat system, which was designed to have a more active component in comparison to the traditional mmos. Adding positioning and aiming, together with dodging and enemy analyzation adds a lot more dynamics to combat engagement than adding skills. Even if you do not believe this, you should have been aware of the design of this game before purchasing it and complaining about something that the game advertised as a design choice.

Dedalus.3065:

Namu.5712:

Kiting and dodging does not = depth

Yes it does. Very simple way of showing this; if they did not add depth, then the game’s difficulty or complexity would be the same if they were removed. You would have to have limited brain capacity in order to think that this game would be equally complex if all targets would be immobile.

Namu.5712:

A wide variety of skills that are equally viable depending on how you want to play and in depth combat based off those 5 skills = depth

The term “equally viable” is ambiguous in this context. In what way is a skill equally viable to another? I mean there are skills that do the same damage as each other, and there are skills that cause conditions. How can these be equally viable? As in, the end damage is the same? Still not equally viable in certain contexts.

Namu.5712:

Right now a majority of the class’s do most of their damage though 1 button. That isn’t in depth game play.

I haven’t played all professions extensively, but I got this feeling from playing a ranger. However, as a d/d elementalist I never use my autoattacks.

Namu.5712:

Reading player movements and attack patterns and predicting them really has nothing to do with the game itself thats something you do in general as a pvp’er in any game like this.

Two scenarios, either skills are attached to weapons or they are not. This is a game design and something that has something to do with the game itself. Are you stating that combining skills with weapons does not reward an attentive player? Imagine if all thieves had the same model for all their weapon sets. You could not differentiate between a HS spammer or a CD thief just by looking at him. You must realize how this adds a level of complexity to the game, ergo depth.

Namu.5712:

For instance maybe as a ranger with the short bow if you hit 5 daze your opponent a chain skill appears allowing you to do something else, like maybe leap towards them allowing you to swap to a melee setup lay down some damage then hit 2 with your sword and leap back and swap back to a ranged weapon…. that is an example of adding depth to existing skills. And perhaps you could use skill points to get new chain skills based around different things… control, damage, defense, healing… etc etc.

Maybe you should actually watch the OPs video where he shows linking attacks in this game. It’s not like Tera where an icon pops up where it says “hit space”, you actually have to think of these yourself. Hmm… depth?

You keep talking about movement…
I am not talking about movement I am talking about reactive skills that you have to choose to use based on a fight.

Warrior puts his shield up blocks, this block triggers other skills that are a result from the block. They could be anything from a control, heal, damage, defense skill based on what your situation and build is setup for that is depth… and you can build these chain skills based on the type of build you are working on.

Like say you were a support/shout spec’d warrior and you blocked and say you chose one of your triggers to be a skill called “Fortified Might” (made up name) so upon successful block of an attack you trigger this skill that pops up as a proc and you have to press it to activate it. And its a shout that grants xx amount of might for xx amount of time to you and your ally’s nearby. Just an example off the top of my head.

We are not talking about movement we are talking about the actual usage of skills not being in depth, and dodging/movement does not make up for that lack of skill depth… because in the end you are still spamming the same button over and over again. That is boring and it isn’t depth.

Silentstorm.7531:

This game has a lot of depth it’s just not face roll apparent.

Well if you only do PvE content, it kinda is.

You can’t face roll PVE but you can zerg it. And bosses don’t react to that or even have a mechanic for it. Face roll and zerging are two different beast unfortunately. I WvW a lot I use the same tactics pretty much with additions. Like gtfo of dodge when focused or its 30 on 4. Depth is more apparent in pvp and this is a pvp/pve game.

All we need is the pve content to force you into using more skills like it used to. Before the lazy people whined it was too hard. And bosses have defenses against mindless zerging.

Any character action game will introduce new combat mechanics over the course of its duration. Each new combat mechanic also triggers a new type of enemy which requires to be defeated by exploiting this freshly introduced combat mechanic.

e.g.: at level 10 you get the active block leading into a counter-attack and a bunch of enemies you can only defeat that way.

GW2’s combat heavily leans towards action without ever taking one lessen from action based games and their progression structure. GW2 is still firmly rooted in “tinker here 3%, tinker there 2%”.

GW2 needs to make the jump away from the plain number based RPG elements as the dominant form of progression and increase the number of interacting combat systems and complexities.

I think when anet add more weapons and utilities to the classes (I think this is inevitable) it’ll build in complexity like its predecessor.

Also allowing right and left handed dual wielding, having 3 focus and 2 scepter skills for example could add a whole new set of skills without even adding weapons to the class.

Fleshing out mesmer for example with a dual pistol option, shields could also be interesting.

Giving the ele conjures a more solid role like engi kits would add 4 more weapons to ele (and give us arcane swords, just ’cause I want to be the magicka)

Pistols and guns for rangers, daggers for engis, melee staffs for warriors, add ALL melee weapons to the underwater set (no reason they shouldn’t work underwater, if with some changes)

And last but not least, make elites part of our normal repertoire. The league of legends style ult just isn’t very compelling for a game like guild wars imo. The gw1/secret world style of elite is just fun for build creation.

But yes, most of the pve is a bit easy, you should be forced to learn by more complex AI (would be one reason to make my freakin shatterstone hit faster if even mobs would walk out of the aoe.)

emikochan.8504:

I think when anet add more weapons and utilities to the classes (I think this is inevitable) it’ll build in complexity like its predecessor.

Unless they add us more arms, new weapons will hardly mean much since you are still stuck with just one weapon set and a swap. Same for utilities.

Adding more weapons doesn’t solve the problem. Adding ways to customize the skills used with existing weapons and build into something unique however does solve that problem. And like I menchoned earlier if they were to add skill chains and triggers that allow you the ability to choose what ability to use given the situation… well there is your combat depth. On the weapon/skill side of things atleast. I think movement is fine….. though boss’s need to be harder imo.

Dedalus.3065:

Maybe you should actually watch the OPs video where he shows linking attacks in this game. It’s not like Tera where an icon pops up where it says “hit space”, you actually have to think of these yourself. Hmm… depth?

The Tera combos are player configured. Actually, in Tera the combos are all soft implemented. It’s rules like “Using Blade Draw after Traverse Cut, Vortex Slash, Charging Slash or Rising Fury reduces activation time by 75%” which as a result makes the skill usable whereas used out of the blue like that it sticks you in place for a looong and slow animation.

But all is not bad. One thing Tera does a lot better is that there are tanks. Sorry but it’s kind of true. The healers aren’t THAT important since many of the hardest bosses were actually soloed by non healer players.

Tera boss fights are actually readable and not a chaotic mess as most GW2 fights are. ANet should really try playing that game to understand what is a fun action based combat system and how to make engaging boss fights.

Silentstorm.7531:

@Jsmooth but it’s not like you can’t come up with things to make it interesting. But i guess the argument would be we had to come up with it ourselves. Which usually ends up being a flame fest on forums.

Coming up with things ourselves? Like in GW1 where players would come up with skill combinations?

In GW1, elite skills could be used to define an entire build. In GW2, the elites seem like a slightly more powerful version of a utility skill. For example, on my GW1 warrior I could create different hammer playstyles based on different hammer elites. I could swap out other skills that would give me a totally different feel for playing the character.

If I swapped out different utility skills or even elites in GW2, I still have the same basic playstyle (for a given weapon). I may swap out situational skills like a combo fire field for a projectile reflection wall.. but my overal attack strategy doesn’t change much. I could also change from a crit build to a condition build… but again (imho) that doesn’t change much either.

I know GW2 isn’t GW1. I get that. GW2 does a lot right. I like having to move around during combat. But there are things about GW1 that I miss most severly.

It does seem like something is lacking. And progressive nerfs without much explanation makes it even more frustrating. When you spend a few hours honing skills and a build. Literally a week later it gets drop kicked. Usually for a reason you yourself isn’t even exploiting.

Namu.5712:

Adding more weapons doesn’t solve the problem. Adding ways to customize the skills used with existing weapons and build into something unique however does solve that problem. And like I menchoned earlier if they were to add skill chains and triggers that allow you the ability to choose what ability to use given the situation… well there is your combat depth. On the weapon/skill side of things atleast. I think movement is fine….. though boss’s need to be harder imo.

Precisely.
The mechanics you explained earlier (and which I also suggested in this old topic : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Will-Combat-Mechanics-be-deeper) would fit perfectly for mmo veterans who are bored of the same old basics, while still not penalizing newcomers, as it would be player’s choice to dive into complicated combos or not. (although once again, I’m really not sure the mmo crowd got more newcomers than veterans … but well that’s another debate)

Plus GW2 core skill system already implements such tools (skill self combo), it would be really a waste not to implement that.

Although I understand why they did that with the number 1. I prefer to do it myself and maybe have variety to expand on it. I find myself not even wanting to hit 1 being its so cheesey.

jayekaiser.5174:

Part of the problem is that although there is a good amount of depth there, there is no need for it in 99% of the PVE content. Dungeons and WvW are the only times I find myself really having to play my class to its fullest and swap out utility skills and weapons. The core PVE content can be easily done by spamming aoe and knowing how/when to dodge.

That right there. As someone who likes dungeons, going out into general PvE is PAINFULLY easy in comparison to even the simplest dungeons. WvW can be hit or miss with the amount of skill required depending on the situation, but almost always PvE is way simpler.

For example, you can add all the skills in the world, but I can get through the vast majority of map completion by pressing 2 and occasionally 3 on a greatsword warrior.

Take some of the complexity and difficulty of certain dungeon encounters and put it out in the world. It doesn’t have to be ridiculous, but I should have to think.

its better than most mmos thats for sure.

as a xmas gift, i got the new wow expac and some play time. just so i dont see it go wasted i decided to level my characters. i had forgotten how clunky it is. seriously feels like controlling a brick, whereas gw2’s combat feels like driving a sports car or something.

what im trying to say is, its a lot more enjoyable than most games and to me, thats all that really matters. how fun is it? and quite frankly, gw2’s combat is way more fun than the faceroll and hope you do more damage than your target does that wow and other mmo’s offer. it makes me think instead of mindlessly smash my keyboard (and end up having to buy a new one a few months later)

@Forrae I did a video on the comparisons. I had wow/rift/gw2 side by side it was so bad watching how muddied up wow is now. Rift is slightly better in smoothness but by far GW2 is the best in the department of feel. And again I said a few times in this post it’s far too easy for the panic button. Vanilla wow although it was the best was absolutely a control and combat debacle every other patch.

We the people of gaming get a little spoiled in these games now. And tend to forget just how bad things were and how good a quality we have now. Just because we don’t like a few parts of a game. Now with that said doesn’t mean we shouldn’t demand back. Some difficulty and encouragement to show some skill in this game

Someone please send a copy of Dark Souls to Anet.

lol that’s a good one the evil pc version too lol.

I know people do not want to hear it, but in my opinion, the lack of combat depth has a lot to do with the lack of synergy between classes. Sure you can throw down combo fields to step up damage, or change effects, but in all honesty, I don’t think it really improves damage output, or alters combat in a hugely meaningful way. With regard to the lack of synergy, I really feel that GW2 has so drastically gotten away from class roles that it has greatly diminished the need for grouping, which when I look back at all the MMOs I have good memories off, it was from being in a good group (or in a guild) and organizing groups in order to increase damage and survivability. Group play in GW2 does not bring anything above and beyond zerg play, other than CNRL-T. It really comes down to extremes; Either everyone is a DD with a self heal, or any class can be as tanky as any other class with a self heal, so why run with any specific class combos? Sure a guardian and ele can lay down some (MINOR) support, and maybe a guardian can be slightly more tanky than a light caster, but it still does not push me to seek out any specific class in a group. In addition, being in a group does not seem to increase survivability, or increase damage output, than just 5 randoms in the same area, especially in wvw. Maybe in pve, it could slightly change the outcome, but I have run most dungeons with any number of class combos and found no real difference. For pvp, it just does not matter.

Combat depth to me was based on inner-group mechanics, and I am sorry to say, the dispersing of roles has diminished the depth of gw2 combat, and makes it more individually based. I know that is why some players like about it, which I think makes it more appropriate for casual gamers. However, I see guilds falling apart left and right, or I see them leaving the game as a whole, and I think it comes down to the lack of any reason to run in a group, which effects the need/desire to run with a guild.

Guild wars it is not, individual zerg wars it is. I am not advocating for a return to the holy “trinity” (tank, dd, healer) but I will admit that I am nostalgic for it, because when a group was firing on the same channel, it was awesome. In contrast, a group in gw2, even on a 3-rd prty chat program, using cntr-T and coordinating, just does not bring about the same feelings, because everyone is just spamming DD spells/skills/keys and really not even looking at the other person’s health bar, etc. Groups also seem to scatter more in gw2, and are less likely to stick together. Maybe this is the new scope of MMOs but it wont keep me for long, and I imagine I am not the only one out here feeling that the lack of roles has a larger impact than expected when it comes to group play, guild play, etc.

A lack of dependency on other players is not a bad thing, if there were options in the game that were created for larger groups or for guilds. Perhaps guild instances, etc. Right now, if you want your guild to do something together, its wvw or bust. Guild chat can help you organize dungeons, sure, but your still 5 manning it, and you don’t need a guild.

Rukia.4802:

Silentstorm.7531:

Well here’s a fact because people seems to compare this game to others. When guild wars came out the next expansion wow came with actually lowered the amount of skills you can have and use on the bars. Rift’s expansion actually did the same thing too. Showing that maybe Anet actually was on to something. If two of its biggest market share competitors copied it so blatantly.

Interesting fact because WoW was released in november of 2004 when GW was released april 2005, BC didn’t hit WoW until ‘07 and in the case you are talking about when guild wars 2 came out, MoP did not lower the amount of skills you can use… my bars didn’t change much at all except for some abilities being made passive and I got new skills to replace those so..

I just noticed your post I think you can’t count. Because wow basically forced you into choosing skills you once could have together. Shrinking how many skills you can actually use at one time. You can only choose 1 in a tree of 3 each tier. Some skills in the past that you had complete control over.

Now either your blind can’t count or didn’t pay attention to the fact that magically came out of nowhere. I was actually in beta for MOP it wasn’t there until the end of testing into going live. You can STILL find people complaining about it on official forums now.

As far as the usual boring you say eq copied troll…Yea for one that jokes old time to Google a new joke. Two it’s obvious blatant copying not that every other company doesn’t do that too. And has nothing to do with the topic. And more or less buttons has nothing to do with how much depth is in a system. You can have only 5 buttons and have good depth if the system engages you to skillfully use them. Case in point most Nintendo games. You had a analog and 2 action buttons but games still had depth.

I think the combat is fine but lack of variety in weapon skills can make it boring. They need to add more weapon skills and make them like utilities where you can pick and choose which 5 you want on your bar. 10 skills for every weapon would be great.

For all this claim of lack of depth, I play my character’s skills according to the situation. I don’t think Guardian is the “deepest” class by a longshot (in fact, it seems to be one of the simpler ones), and I still don’t find myself mashing buttons mindlessly, according to “muscle memory.” All utility skills have a place, according to the situation at hand. If I play this game mindlessly, I can’t be as effective as I could, and it would end up being a dodge/fight thing as many suggest. But I have to think about my build, and use all my weapon skills, heal skill, utility skill, and Elite skill according to the situation-I HAVE to use ALL my skills AS NEEDED-isn’t this rather deep?

Granted, I am not fully experienced with ALL professions, but I’d think that most professions have mechanics so as not to make your playstyle a boring button mashing fest. I know playing my Guardian isn’t as “shallow” as some people claim-not at all, and I bet some people feel similarly about other professions.

I guess this game lacks the choice of GW1, but that choice was almost cut short by the need of people to play according to metas, which is what people forget. We had choice, but big deal, we couldn’t use the skills we wanted, as most parties REQUIRED certain “must have” builds for specific content. Choice doesn’t matter if you always choose the same old, overused (although “effective”) tools. I feel in a way, though we have less choice, we are given more plausible options to play that fit our taste/playstyle vs GW1 (LF HB Monk to go.)

I am not the fanboy style, but I am just expressing my honest opinion. I do’nt like Ascended gear’s higher stats among a few other things, but I honestly can’t say that combat in this game is REALLY shallow-I believe it’s more a misperception/lack of experience/reluctance to change than reality (and I mean no offense, so feel free to disagree.)

While I am a huge fan of this game, a lot of my interest is hope that they will expand game play like they did with the GW1 expansion packs. Vanilla GW1 didn’t even have heroes.

As far as the current state, I agree it is too shallow. Part of this may be class balance problems. Mesmer combat is much deeper than Ranger combat for example.

1. The combat attempts to achieve a balance between traditional MMO combat and FPS mechanics, but the FPS mechanics are watered down as a result and there are too few skills to be interesting from a MMO combat mechanic perspective.

2. The cool downs on many abilities are too long, heals are obviously only used when you have to heal, and for most builds just autoattacking with ability ‘1’ is as effective as trying to use it manually, leaving you with very few abilities you actually control.

3. On many classes you could auto attack almost every ability (if the game let you) and not notice any real difference in your combat effectiveness.

4. The short term CD abilities that are available for most of the time you are in combat are “fire when ever they are up” type abilities. This leaves you mostly just mashing what ever ability comes of CD and results in no real decision making or game play.

5. For many classes, F2 abilities are useless if not counter productive in many situations. In PVP for example, Ranger F2 abilities are mostly useless because of long cast times. In PVP who has 5 seconds to sit still for a minor AOE regen? AOE attacks on most pets are so slow they can’t hit opposing players. You could opt for a DPS ability but then its just another “mash when available” button with no strategic options. Even the Owl’s abilities are mostly “mash when available”.

Well they did say they had plans like a month ago and then we heard nothing since. As far as guardian combat you can make it complex like i did in the vid. Or you can button mash which works to a extend until you meet something you can’t face roll through.

Would be interesting to know from people who are satisfied/dissatisfied with actual mechanics their experience in MMOs, and their average playtime per week.

Because sure, if it is one guy’s first MMO, and if he only plays 3 hours per week, then the current depth would feel totally satisfying.
But for a guy who has been playing MMOs for 2-10 years, 15 hours a week … aka the average mmo player … unless he watches TV while playing GW2, I can’t see how his brain would keep being active after 4 monthes during fights. After basics have been learned.

Ya, GW1 didn’t have heroes until 2 years later. It always had henchies though, non customizable.

I feel as many do about the huge contrast between the complexity and depth of GW2 vs many of it’s parents, especially it’s predecessor GW1.

I think GW1 depth came from several different factors.

1. Limited skills tied to specific weapon types…
dagger-about 1/3rd of assassin skills dedicated to daggers
bow- about 1/3 ranger skills dedicated to bows
swords/hammers/sheilds/axes/spears-warrior/paragon
Every other skill in the game didn’t matter what weapon you had.
You could have daggers on your warrior using all spells if you wanted, not saying it’s viable, but an option non the less.

2. Dual Classes- I could be a warrior using all ele skills. You wouldn’t know what you were fighting until I used or began to use skills. You would have an idea of skills I may have by knowing my primary and secondary but not certain until they pop off.

3. Trinity- In pvp you had a designed front line/mid line/back line. Tanks and pressure up front usually, damage and support holding the mid-line and healers defining the backline. Sometimes you would get just 2 lines damage/support with healers. This made for a great feeling of reliance and protection amongst your chosen comrades. Roles. It has worked this way in the majority of MMO’s for a reason, supporting group play. Supporting actual strategy imo. Depth.

4. Conditions/Hexes/Enchantments and Interupting, specific to GW1. Many skills had cast times. You could lock down a player with interupts to weaken a link in the chain. Conditions/Hexes applied pressure to a player to retreat, remove them, have someone remove them but dealing with cd’s and energy you even had to strategize doing that, energy management was a big deal.

Enchantments-you had preventative and reactive enchants. A notable example of preventative were the prot and bonding monks. Enchants used would stop a large amount of damage getting through or atleast redirect it to themselves. Reactive would be those skills like healing breeze which was a regen.

5. Attribute system-Actually, the trait system is kind of the same thing. Perhaps it just needs more skills per class to effect. Think it just had a better understandable format in GW1.

I don’t really see this type of meaningful depth in GW2. I’m trying to use what was given to me and had so much respect for GW1 that I want this version of tyria to be successful and long lasting. I’ll take my breaks when bored and it dawns on me that I’m not really doing anything different no matter how I build my character. The world is pretty. I want to play in it. Just need the attachment in character devolopment.

Hmm, I will say that ranges and armor type will kind of mimick the lines in a trinity system. Range on particular weapon choices will force you to close distance to use them.

From my own personal perspective, all I wanted from GW2 was GW1 in a persistant setting with the ability to jump. For many of the folks I have interacted with over the years said that it being a hugely instanced lobby type game is what either made them not take a chance on it or not staying long. From my own personal perspective, being a diablo type lobby function is what kept it being what many would call a niche game.
From my own personal perspective I thought that the systems in GW1 translated into a persistant world would be like having infinate gold.

Not saying that this game won’t last, just don’t know if it will last for me. Slowly but surely I am starting to see the cracks in the paint. I’m trying to utilize what was given to me but depth is begining to show it’s bottom.

Man, I’m popped and turnt up right now, I have no idea what I typed already or if it made sense. I should stay off the kitten forums. =)

P.S. I miss touch rangers. One of the cheesiest builds in GW1 to last since proph.

(made me feel like a psuedo vampire, necros were the real vampires)

Kinda wish monks were in this game I just like the style of game play they had.

Akari Storm.6809:

P.S. I miss touch rangers. One of the cheesiest builds in GW1 to last since proph.

(made me feel like a psuedo vampire, necros were the real vampires)

lol i can remember smoking a guild lord in gvg in seconds with 8 touch rangers on gank lord race , was epic

Isn’t that a case of something being a little too broken in the system. I hope that doesn’t show up here. Then you would have a 1000 reply post on how broken it is.

Mer.2756:

The game has some combat depth, but:

1: it is not needed/visible. I went through single player using one build, because they all felt the same. Spam skills from 1-5, occasionally something from the second bar. Repeat 3k times.

Which class?

I think he is over stating that extremely. Because if I only used 1 on my guardian or Elementalist in any weapon. I’d be a useless gimp in pve or pvp