Guild Wars 2

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Edit – I’m surprised that Danicia hasn’t closed this thread yet.

They probably find the whole thing interesting. In a weird sort of way.

kRiza krimos.1637:

Yes I can. And yes that is what they intended. If it wassn’t their intention then why is it possible? Its not a small oversight. If it was an oversight, well, there was 3 patches since this release they could have fixed that.

Wait, it same system like in rest of game you say? Then it surely is intended or it would be changed durring year and half of games existence.

Besides, having dev friends makes you biased and your arguments have no credibility. But you must feel really important in gw2 universe, good for you…

Thankfully there are GMs who take care of people who feel that it’s ok to AFK like how you think it’s intended. And they seem to be quite lenient on the punishments. Where else would you get to have multiple warnings before you’re hit with a 72 hour suspension? I personally would drop the “exploit” tag on them, resulting in perma-bans. But that’s just my own biased opinions.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

/puts on law hat

After further review of the evidence and testimony of chat logs from both parties, I find the GM acted in good faith in protecting the game play of people wanting to do the LA event. Logs state that players are NOT suspended for AFKing, but rather after repeated offenses. Being kicked no less than three times, and returning to the zone each time to continue AFKing to gather rewards resulted in a 72 hour suspension.

Case closed. If you don’t like the punishment, please feel free to submit a Support Ticket.

Edit – I’m surprised that Danicia hasn’t closed this thread yet.

Lawl internet lawyers.

“Player was removed from the map more than 3 times but continues to rejoin and returns to an afk state”

Why was she removed in the first place?! because “Afking and purposely afking degrades the game experience for everyone”? Since when does this kind of policy exist? Why hasn’t there been any transparent communication to their player base about a change in terms regarding being AFK?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

kRiza krimos.1637:

Yes I can. And yes that is what they intended. If it wassn’t their intention then why is it possible? Its not a small oversight. If it was an oversight, well, there was 3 patches since this release they could have fixed that.

Wait, it same system like in rest of game you say? Then it surely is intended or it would be changed durring year and half of games existence.

Besides, having dev friends makes you biased and your arguments have no credibility. But you must feel really important in gw2 universe, good for you…

Thankfully there are GMs who take care of people who feel that it’s ok to AFK like how you think it’s intended. And they seem to be quite lenient on the punishments. Where else would you get to have multiple warnings before you’re hit with a 72 hour suspension? I personally would drop the “exploit” tag on them, resulting in perma-bans. But that’s just my own biased opinions.

Is that part of:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I said to debate whether or not Anet intended for people to be rewarded for doing nothing.

???

It looks as if he is attempting to comply with your request for debate on a specific topic.

Ashen.2907:

It looks as if he is attempting to comply with your request for debate on a specific topic.

The debate ended long ago when I looked at the chat logs, and saw that GMs haven’t been suspending people for AFKing, but rather kicking them from the map. The suspensions came from multiple kicks while AFKing.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ashen.2907:

It looks as if he is attempting to comply with your request for debate on a specific topic.

The debate ended long ago when I looked at the chat logs, and saw that GMs haven’t been suspending people for AFKing, but rather kicking them from the map. The suspensions came from multiple kicks while AFKing.

There aren’t any justification for being ,anually kicked from a map from them either aside from “being afk”. Why not set the internal auto kick sytem instead? A debate doesn’t end because someone just happened to grasp at straws. Oh wait, they do, not just in their favor.

How do I call the offensive behavior police to support my events? Or is this a private police force for blackgate/tts/etc.

Perim.8563:

How do I call the offensive behavior police to support my events? Or is this a private police force for blackgate/tts/etc.

Apparently, if they join your guild and invite them in your private TS and have off-the-clock private sessions with them.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

I don’t need to determine Anet’s policy. I already understand it. If there’s someone taking advantage of a mechanic that wasn’t intended, Anet has the right to smite them. But if it helps, Chris the security head, visits our TS every now and then for runs. He’s taken his own time outside of work to clarify what’s not allowed, so I’ll PM him to ask for clarification on AFKs during events. He was there when we discovered an exploit in the Wurm, which lead to the event shutting down for a few days.

So far, all the people here are agreeing they are STEALING rewards by MISUSING a feature for personal gain. by definition, that is an exploit. The mere excuse that you can also be AFK for legit reasons, doesn’t mean that purposly going afk to get the reward without effort is NOT an EXPLOIT.

The reason AFK-ers have an issue with this is cause they are missing the reward, so they agree that they go AFK to get the reward and agree that they are exploiting. I think there is good reason to keep this thread open. Easy to find the reall evil people right here.

Anet has the right to kick people that are AFK. The way that it is done doesn’t change a thing. If you want shiny’s don’t steal it like a skritt, but put bloody effort in it. Don’t be a leecher!!!

Leo Paul.1659:

There aren’t any justification for being ,anually kicked from a map from them either aside from “being afk”. Why not set the internal auto kick sytem instead? A debate doesn’t end because someone just happened to grasp at straws. Oh wait, they do, not just in their favor.

The justification is that AFK players do the following:

1) Take away the experience of the event from other players
2) Take up precious player slots on each map
3) Do not contribute to the intended rescue mechanics of the event
4) Get max rewards without contribution
5) Can scale up Miasma events, resulting in high chances to fail

Again, the debate is over. Anet GMs did what they felt was necessary to protect the other players on the map. I fully support their decision.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Leo Paul.1659:

There aren’t any justification for being ,anually kicked from a map from them either aside from “being afk”. Why not set the internal auto kick sytem instead? A debate doesn’t end because someone just happened to grasp at straws. Oh wait, they do, not just in their favor.

The justification is that AFK players do the following:

1) Take away the experience of the event from other players
2) Take up precious player slots on each map
3) Do not contribute to the intended rescue mechanics of the event
4) Get max rewards without contribution
5) Can scale up Miasma events, resulting in high chances to fail

Again, the debate is over. Anet GMs did what they felt was necessary to protect the other players on the map. I fully support their decision.

The problem lies with the fact that there were no proper communication towards their player base changing afk from being acceptable to being punishable. If you really are a lawyer, then you’ve probably heard of Unfair Contract Terms Act. And stop putting words where there aren’t any. The reason provided was a blanket statement regarding ALL AFKers which would apply to people wherever they are: whether they are in LA or in gendarran. If you have proof of the GM stating explicitly points 3, 4 and 5 in the screenies then please provide them.

Leo Paul.1659:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Leo Paul.1659:

There aren’t any justification for being ,anually kicked from a map from them either aside from “being afk”. Why not set the internal auto kick sytem instead? A debate doesn’t end because someone just happened to grasp at straws. Oh wait, they do, not just in their favor.

The justification is that AFK players do the following:

1) Take away the experience of the event from other players
2) Take up precious player slots on each map
3) Do not contribute to the intended rescue mechanics of the event
4) Get max rewards without contribution
5) Can scale up Miasma events, resulting in high chances to fail

Again, the debate is over. Anet GMs did what they felt was necessary to protect the other players on the map. I fully support their decision.

The problem lies with the fact that there were no proper communication towards their player base changing afk from being acceptable to being punishable. If you really are a lawyer, then you’ve probably heard of Unfair Contract Terms Act. And stop putting words where there aren’t any. The reason provided was a blanket statement regarding ALL AFKers which would apply to people wherever they are: whether they are in LA or in gendarran. If you have proof of the GM stating explicitly points 3, 4 and 5 in the screenies then please provide them.

Who is talking bout punishment??
It has always been the case that if you go AFK, after an amount of time you get kicked, that is not a punishment. The method of kicking shouldn’t matter at all.

And as said, the fact that you are definding going AFK in lions arch in order to get the reward means you are supporting exploiuters. In essence the people doing it on purpose (and screaming the loudest here) are exploiters. the only trouble is proof. thats why people trhat are afk are simply kicked. This to prevent that innocents get suspended for something others are misusing (and misusing is agianst the rules).

Leo Paul.1659:

The problem lies with the fact that there were no proper communication towards their player base changing afk from being acceptable to being punishable. If you really are a lawyer, then you’ve probably heard of Unfair Contract Terms Act. And stop putting words where there aren’t any. The reason provided was a blanket statement regarding ALL AFKers which would apply to people wherever they are: whether they are in LA or in gendarran. If you have proof of the GM stating explicitly points 3, 4 and 5 in the screenies then please provide them.

Quick background. I studied law before switching to a business degree. I just pointed out my legal training because I really hate lawyers who try to convince laymen they’re right, when in fact they’re completely wrong.

/White Knight mode

Back to the issue at hand. There is no need for any more proof outside the GM’s decisions on first hand accounts. They have full rights to kick you without providing documented evidence. They have full rights to suspend you without providing documented evidence. And they sure as heck have full rights to cancel your account without any refunds for cause if they feel you’ve violated any provisions in the User Agreement.

The terms “cheating” and “exploiting” are broad, and can be defined as Anet sees it. Buying Rare weapons for 10 Karma? It was a mechanic in game that Anet didn’t intend, so when people took advantage of it, it turned into an exploit. AFKing while getting rewards based on the actions of other players, that can also be considered an exploit. Not to you maybe, but if Anet feels as such, then it is. That’s all you need to know.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Quick background. I studied law before switching to a business degree. I just pointed out my legal training because I really hate lawyers who try to convince laymen they’re right, when in fact they’re completely wrong.

/White Knight mode

Back to the issue at hand. There is no need for any more proof outside the GM’s decisions on first hand accounts. They have full rights to kick you without providing documented evidence. They have full rights to suspend you without providing documented evidence. And they sure as heck have full rights to cancel your account without any refunds for cause if they feel you’ve violated any provisions in the User Agreement.

The terms “cheating” and “exploiting” are broad, and can be defined as Anet sees it. Buying Rare weapons for 10 Karma? It was a mechanic in game that Anet didn’t intend, so when people took advantage of it, it turned into an exploit. AFKing while getting rewards based on the actions of other players, that can also be considered an exploit. Not to you maybe, but if Anet feels as such, then it is. That’s all you need to know.

And Mr. Smooth Penguin here is right. Anet has full rights to kick your account and ban your account for whatever reason they feel like. They could ban your account because they didn’t like the way you smelled. They don’t do it (too often) because its just bad business practice and will eventually lead to a bad reputation.

The issue at hand here is though, that this is exactly what they are doing. They’re kicking and banning people for literal kittens and giggles and no other logical reason (definitely not any breach of EULA,) and so anet needs to be reprimanded for this. Perhaps not legally, because legally they’re doing absolutely nothing wrong, but in terms of reputation etc.

Reikou.7068:

The issue at hand here is though, that this is exactly what they are doing. They’re kicking and banning people for literal kittens and giggles and no other logical reason (definitely not any breach of EULA,) and so anet needs to be reprimanded for this. Perhaps not legally, but in terms of reputation etc.

Actually, as I’ve stated, AFKing the LA event can be seen as “exploit”, since you gain rewards without doing anything. If you don’t move for a long period of time, a GM kicks you from the map. If you repeat this behavior over and over, that led to a 72 hour suspension. These actions protect the economy of the game, and help to prevent unintended game play with in-place mechanics.

Anet should be applauded for their efforts in doing what’s best for this game.

mercury ranique.2170:

So far, all the people here are agreeing they are STEALING rewards by MISUSING a feature for personal gain.

My apologies for being blunt but you might want to reread this thread. “all the people here,” are not agreeing on anything, let alone this one particular point.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Actually, as I’ve stated, AFKing the LA event can be seen as “exploit”, since you gain rewards without doing anything.

This would mean that traveling in the general vicinity of an event could be seen as an “exploit” since you can gain rewards without doing anything.

The same would be true of going AFK for as little as a matter of seconds in the general vicinity of an event.

Personally I think that the participation threshold for gaining event rewards should be addressed.

Leo, the fact that some people are trying to hide while they’re AFK’ing suggests that they do know what they are doing is wrong. Some people won’t have a clue but others will know full well what they’re doing. Maybe Anet should make an announcement somewhere on what they expect from player behaviour (if the whole premise of this thread is true then they should) in this event, but some people know they cutting close to the line.

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Reikou.7068:

The issue at hand here is though, that this is exactly what they are doing. They’re kicking and banning people for literal kittens and giggles and no other logical reason (definitely not any breach of EULA,) and so anet needs to be reprimanded for this. Perhaps not legally, but in terms of reputation etc.

Actually, as I’ve stated, AFKing the LA event can be seen as “exploit”, since you gain rewards without doing anything. If you don’t move for a long period of time, a GM kicks you from the map. If you repeat this behavior over and over, that led to a 72 hour suspension. These actions protect the economy of the game, and help to prevent unintended game play with in-place mechanics.

Anet should be applauded for their efforts in doing what’s best for this game.

By that logic any event in game can be seen as exploit since you gain rewards without doing anything. Scarlet evasion event? Yep. Did they show up to kick afk-ers then? No?

Do they show up on every Claw of Jormag event to kick afk-ers that tag dragon and sit at tents for 20 mins? No?

Also, if person loged back in after kick it means he’s not afk does it? He’s there obviously. Perhaps said player just wants to enjoy panorama of burning city, are you saying that its not allowed? Is new Anet policy: “You will play to the music or kick”?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Again, the debate is over. Anet GMs did what they felt was necessary to protect the other players on the map. I fully support their decision.

Did they do same for every server, every map and overflow on EU and NA? Of course not, it would require army of devs. Maybe instead of praticing selective justice they should implement rewards system that won’t allow this kind of problems.

Making boring events with reward system full of holes is their stew, they should eat it way they made it. Saying: “We created this way it is, gladly took your money and now we will kitten you any way we like for using it way we created it” is really bad pratice…

kRiza krimos.1637:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Reikou.7068:

The issue at hand here is though, that this is exactly what they are doing. They’re kicking and banning people for literal kittens and giggles and no other logical reason (definitely not any breach of EULA,) and so anet needs to be reprimanded for this. Perhaps not legally, but in terms of reputation etc.

Actually, as I’ve stated, AFKing the LA event can be seen as “exploit”, since you gain rewards without doing anything. If you don’t move for a long period of time, a GM kicks you from the map. If you repeat this behavior over and over, that led to a 72 hour suspension. These actions protect the economy of the game, and help to prevent unintended game play with in-place mechanics.

Anet should be applauded for their efforts in doing what’s best for this game.

By that logic any event in game can be seen as exploit since you gain rewards without doing anything. Scarlet evasion event? Yep. Did they show up to kick afk-ers then? No?

Do they show up on every Claw of Jormag event to kick afk-ers that tag dragon and sit at tents for 20 mins? No?

Also, if person loged back in after kick it means he’s not afk does it? He’s there obviously. Perhaps said player just wants to enjoy panorama of burning city, are you saying that its not allowed? Is new Anet policy: “You will play to the music or kick”?

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Again, the debate is over. Anet GMs did what they felt was necessary to protect the other players on the map. I fully support their decision.

Did they do same for every server, every map and overflow on EU and NA? Of course not, it would require army of devs. Maybe instead of praticing selective justice they should implement rewards system that won’t allow this kind of problems.

Making boring events with reward system full of holes is their stew, they should eat it way they made it. Saying: “We created this way it is, gladly took your money and now we will kitten you any way we like for using it way we created it” is really bad pratice…

First off all, the only events you can AFK are the wurm and tequatl. All the rest you need to have atleast a minimum effort of hitting once.

Secondly. Yes going afk with the purpose of getting a reward is an exploit. The issue is that it is much more pressing in LA then at e.g. Tequatl cause the event area was much smaller with almost no places to hide.

For the rest, it doesn’t matter wich servers tzhey kick people on or not. It doesn’t matter why they where there. The people that where kicked where AFK so deserved to be kicked, and if proven they did it on purpose or where circumventing afk-detection tools, they should be suspended. That is the rules of this game. Even IF they happened to be there for other reasons. If a police officer is checking if you drink and drive, and see that you have marihuana in your car, should he let you go cause he was there for something else or fine you anyways??

The thing is. AFK-ing in LA is wrong by definition, and if on purpose, ti is exploiting. If someone is breaking the rules of the game he is going to be punished.

Wrong. I have gotten bronze medals for various events just by running thru. No minimum effort, they were simply on my way.

Secondly. Why is it even possible to do nothing and gain reward. That is flaw of heir reward system and its purely problem of their design. It is also their own fault for training players to expect equal rewards for doing next to nothing in 90% of content. World bosses anyone?

I wonder what the people who report afk choose as their reason for reporting? Botting? Inappropriate character name? Verbal abuse? Coz if you’re seriously reporting people for an offense that he didn’t do just because he’s afk then you’re misusing that button.

Leo Paul.1659:

I wonder what the people who report afk choose as their reason for reporting? Botting? Inappropriate character name? Verbal abuse? Coz if you’re seriously reporting people for an offense that he didn’t do just because he’s afk then you’re misusing that button.

As stated many times by support. Not all offensive behaviour is covered by the category button’s. If the reason isn’t there, choose one that is closest to the situation. In this case botting would be closed.

And the person is AFK-ing so committing an offense. AFK-ing in LA with the soul pupose off getting a reward is an exploit. Exploiting isn’t allowed.

mercury ranique.2170:

Leo Paul.1659:

I wonder what the people who report afk choose as their reason for reporting? Botting? Inappropriate character name? Verbal abuse? Coz if you’re seriously reporting people for an offense that he didn’t do just because he’s afk then you’re misusing that button.

As stated many times by support. Not all offensive behaviour is covered by the category button’s. If the reason isn’t there, choose one that is closest to the situation. In this case botting would be closed.

And the person is AFK-ing so committing an offense. AFK-ing in LA with the soul pupose off getting a reward is an exploit. Exploiting isn’t allowed.

How is that even close to botting? And since when is afking an offense? And how do you know people’s intent? :O You’re just stretching the rules to suit your needs.

@mercury

Did you just say AFK-ing is a feature? rofl

Also beeing at any map is potentialy taking a place someone else wants. Those people bought game same as anyone else, they have right to be there and “play as they like”. Perhaps they just like to stand and admire beauty of their charachters in LA suroundings.
And if designers created event that will reward them just for standing there, well thats a bonus.

mercury ranique.2170:

@kRiza,
If it is perfectly ok to go afk, why are people being kicked for afk at all then??

Exactly what we were asking. From the map chats I’ve observed throughout several LA events today, seems like people aren’t getting kicked or suspended anymore.

Found one very funny chat. I hope the next patch won’t divide the community as much.

Leo Paul.1659:

mercury ranique.2170:

@kRiza,
If it is perfectly ok to go afk, why are people being kicked for afk at all then??

Exactly what we were asking. From the map chats I’ve observed throughout several LA events today, seems like people aren’t getting kicked anymore.

Again, kicked is no punishment, and afk-ers in LA should be kicked cause it is a sick and very bad action.

Kick: being removed from the game due to inactivity
Suspension: being unable to log in for a period of time cause of unwanted behaviour.

Cause the motivs behind afking in LA isn’t clear people are being kicked.

Don’t quote me so fast. I like ninja editing. Look at my sig.

Chats in game is so much worse than the forums. People are blaming heirloom runners and bag farmers (zerglings). The map chat is more toxic than the miasma.

Wut? Who said anything about me being an afker? :/ I didn’t even know that the automated kick system won’t activate through the entire duration of the event. You sir, are making too many assumptions. I have never been banned or suspended in any game that i played.

Attacking people is wrong too! So please follow the rules.

Teofa, there is a lot of rubbish in this thread, but several people have allready showed, with links to the user agreement, that those people’s job is to kick/suspend others. They have those tools for a reason and they have been acting within the user agreement everyone agreed with, and are actually making sure people are acting within that user agreementr instead of outside. They aredoing their job and it is not their own personal definition. They are doing their job and personally I say they are doing an excellent job.

seems this threat is hitting a know bug that happens after a certain amount of posts have been made, so making this post to unbug it (hoping it works)

mercury ranique.2170:

Teofa, there is a lot of rubbish in this thread, but several people have allready showed, with links to the user agreement, that those people’s job is to kick/suspend others. They have those tools for a reason and they have been acting within the user agreement everyone agreed with, and are actually making sure people are acting within that user agreementr instead of outside. They aredoing their job and it is not their own personal definition. They are doing their job and personally I say they are doing an excellent job.

Sorry, but any sensible problem solver would look at the LA issue differently.

1. Why are these people here AFK? Because they can get a reward for it.
2. Why can they get a reward AFK? Because there is no participation check.
3. How do we address this?
A. Add a participation check.
or
B. Station employees in each instance to kick and suspend people “suspected” of being AFK on the spot.

I know which solution I would use. I know which solution is impartial, practical, and does not rely on unsubstantiated impression. I know which solution would not create hostility, appearance of favoritism, or place my employees in an unfavorable light.

shrug.

So in conclusion, with the evidence presented. The jury will now take a vote on who was right in this given situation.

All in favor of defending Anets actions say “Anet”

All in favor of defending “AFKers” say “afk”

Teofa Tsavo.9863:

Sorry, but any sensible problem solver would look at the LA issue differently.

1. Why are these people here AFK? Because they can get a reward for it.
2. Why can they get a reward AFK? Because there is no participation check.
3. How do we address this?
A. Add a participation check.
or
B. Station employees in each instance to kick and suspend people “suspected” of being AFK on the spot.

I know which solution I would use. I know which solution is impartial, practical, and does not rely on unsubstantiated impression. I know which solution would not create hostility, appearance of favoritism, or place my employees in an unfavorable light.

shrug.

I think they want to add a participation check of some kind or shorten the afk timer in hindsight, but don’t have the time.

TheFool.4589:

So in conclusion, with the evidence presented. The jury will now take a vote on who was right in this given situation.

All in favor of defending Anets actions say “Anet”

All in favor of defending “AFKers” say “afk”

That is all you get from this discussion? Anet took the wrong action. What they did failed to address the root problem.

It is akin to banning people using the snowflake craft exploit… while leaving the mechanics of doing it ingame. It is like banning people for buying karma weapons too cheaply and converting them… but not changing the karma price.

A witch hunt is not an acceptable solution, regardless of the entertainment value “some” seem to get from it.

Although a solution, I do think this is only a temporary solution and not a complete one at that. They did make some precautions and made sure the judgment was fair. They could have made the system itself automatically monitor the players, but in this case, think of it as “manually monitoring” players until an automated system is in place. Automated vs human monitoring is another debate altogether.

Not at all surprised by this on both sides.
Players afk because the rewards aren’t rewarding enough to actively grind, but feel the need to keep up financially with the farmers and high costs set by Anet.
Anet employee abuses his power because it’s violating his game mode.

At least this is entertaining.

I don’t think it was even a solution at all, more like a lapse in judgment. If this was deemed a problem, considering it’s been 2 or 3 days since the kicking/suspension began, how inconsistent the reinforcement was (done only on a few servers/overflows for some odd hours by a dev or two) AND not to mention how controversial it has become, there should have been a real fix by now. Also, seems like there aren’t any kicking/suspension going on recently or at least not as blatantly. Take note that my speculations are only based on my experience and what little I know after this issue has erupted.

I think I finally realize why people are so passionate about the rights of AFK players. This isn’t an issue of people getting kicked, but rather of “Entitlement”. Certain players might feel they deserve to get rewards for not doing anything, as that’s the way they play their game. However, what matters is what Anet intended for this event.

If this event wasn’t coded with shorter AFK timers, or participation checks, that doesn’t imply that it’s ok to AFK. The actions of the GMs prove this.