Guild Wars 2

Kamui.4038:

How nice it is to see someone with proxies rigging the poll against “skimpy” overnight (even though real world players go with more revealing armour, and overwhelmingly so).

what do you mean overnight ? the nigh has just begun here, it´s 2 a.m.

Shakkara.2641:

I want female armor that not only fully covers, but also does not show boobs in any way.

In particular heavy armor that does not have any breast-cups. Currently there’s not much choice in that regard.

Breastcups are totally unrealistic for heavy armor. You don’t need them as armor will just flatten those boobs. And it’s dangerous as they deflect blows and arrows right at your heart. All historical examples of women in platemail (for example, Jeane d’Arc) had them wear identical platemail as men do.

That is what I want for my characters. I’m female in real life but I play mostly male characters because I totally hate most of the female armor.

Phalanx Armor for men, so totally awesome.
And for women? Ugly helmet, ugly torso piece, ugly everything. So disappointing

Even Game of Thrones does it right, with heavily armored women like Brienne running around with platemail identical to male ones. THAT is the look I want for women!

this really isnt a good argument, because those people wearing that armor, was made by people who made male armor most of the time. Also brienne is supposed to look like dude in her armor.

and armor wasnt really designed for comfort

im pretty sure if they had real engineers/ergonomics people working on female armor, it probably wouldnt look like brienne/joan of arc, and it probably also wouldnt look like breast cups. Neither is probably actually representitive of armor well designed for a woman.

Female, voted #1

Also agree with needing more armor choices in general. >:

This poll is evil.

(Contractually obligated to share since I lodged the 666th vote)

Aryksa.4021:

I’m a woman who play female characters. And I prefer non-skimpy armour and want more choices of it.

Same here.
I prefer gorgeous-and-elegant armors (like TA armors) to skimpy armors.

Zaoda.1653:

I prefer the invisible option #6:

There’s too much skimpy female armor and not enough skimpy male armor.

Totally agree with this lol

More options for all are great!

An example of RL dude rocking a sexy, skimpy adventuring outfit, to prove it can be done: http://fashionablygeek.com/costumes/gender-bent-erotic-metal-gear-solid-v-cosplay-is-fantastic/

And a good commentary on why “boobplate” is a bad idea: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/05/boob-plate-armor-would-kill-you

Zalyn.9534:

More options for all are great!

An example of RL dude rocking a sexy, skimpy adventuring outfit, to prove it can be done: http://fashionablygeek.com/costumes/gender-bent-erotic-metal-gear-solid-v-cosplay-is-fantastic/

Uh yeah. There’s a reason ArenaNet doesn’t have armor like that in this game. That looks kittening ridiculous.

How about you take off the “shirt” and actually wear more than a thong. You can have skimpy male armor, but that’s not male armor. There’s a reason men in dresses look bad.

Larynx.2453:

Zalyn.9534:

More options for all are great!

An example of RL dude rocking a sexy, skimpy adventuring outfit, to prove it can be done: http://fashionablygeek.com/costumes/gender-bent-erotic-metal-gear-solid-v-cosplay-is-fantastic/

Uh yeah. There’s a reason ArenaNet doesn’t have armor like that in this game. That looks kittening ridiculous.

Aren’t more options good? Some were skeptical of being able to do skimpy on men while letting them look cool, and this proves it can be done even with extremely revealing clothes. So less skimpy is certainly possible on male characters.

ETA: " There’s a reason men in dresses look bad." – I’m sure I can find some pics of cosplayers proving you wrong.

Zalyn.9534:

More options for all are great!

An example of RL dude rocking a sexy, skimpy adventuring outfit, to prove it can be done: http://fashionablygeek.com/costumes/gender-bent-erotic-metal-gear-solid-v-cosplay-is-fantastic/

And a good commentary on why “boobplate” is a bad idea: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/05/boob-plate-armor-would-kill-you

If you want realism, get rid of all the oversized great-swords that nobody except a demigod could possibly even lift, the automatic weapons with unlimited ammunition, and make all cloth armor have zero defensive value.

And get rid of all the spikes, flanges, horns and other ornaments that could give an enemy or a weapon purchase, or could catch on something.

Zalyn.9534:

Larynx.2453:

Zalyn.9534:

More options for all are great!

An example of RL dude rocking a sexy, skimpy adventuring outfit, to prove it can be done: http://fashionablygeek.com/costumes/gender-bent-erotic-metal-gear-solid-v-cosplay-is-fantastic/

Uh yeah. There’s a reason ArenaNet doesn’t have armor like that in this game. That looks kittening ridiculous.

Aren’t more options good? Some were skeptical of being able to do skimpy on men while letting them look cool, and this proves it can be done even with extremely revealing clothes. So less skimpy is certainly possible on male characters.

ETA: " There’s a reason men in dresses look bad." – I’m sure I can find some pics of cosplayers proving you wrong.

No. More options is not good. Adding more options directly take away resources from other areas of the game.

Dresses look bad on men because they are form-fitting clothing. This is why woman do not look bad in suits. Baggy clothing or fitting clothes look better than tight clothes. Even ignoring that, social stigmatism against men in feminine designs is still present. They’re never going to add it in the game, so it’s not worth the time to argue.

You can have skimpy male clothing without looking ridiculous. Even something as simple as not wearing a shirt is adequate, like several of the “gladiator” armors in this game. Using an example of an erotic homosexual outfit is not realistic in the slightest.

Larynx.2453:

Zalyn.9534:

Aren’t more options good? Some were skeptical of being able to do skimpy on men while letting them look cool, and this proves it can be done even with extremely revealing clothes. So less skimpy is certainly possible on male characters.

ETA: " There’s a reason men in dresses look bad." – I’m sure I can find some pics of cosplayers proving you wrong.

No. More options is not good. Adding more options directly take away resources from other areas of the game.

Dresses look bad on men because they are form-fitting clothing. This is why woman do not look bad in suits. Baggy clothing or fitting clothes look better than tight clothes. Even ignoring that, social stigmatism against men in feminine designs is still present. They’re never going to add it in the game, so it’s not worth the time to argue.

So you voted against adding more skimpy options in the poll, right? Because that’s also an unnecessary diversion of resources.

It’s nice that you don’t think that tighter or skimpier clothing looks good on guys, but there are quite a few people who do think it does (as we’re seeing in this discussion thread). Why should their preferences be valued less than yours? Maybe the stigma against men in revealing designs can be lessened with more exposure (couldn’t resist) so all players get to enjoy having more options.

ETA: “Using an example of an erotic homosexual outfit is not realistic in the slightest.” – Larynx, meet Wanderer. You guys can talk about realism.

But I don’t get why it isn’t realistic. There are guys who like to look at guys, and gals who like to look at guys, and dudes who like to look at gals, and gals who like to look at gals. And there are guys who like to dress in interesting ways just as gals do, and some like to show off their bodies in interesting ways. I’m not saying we need that particular outfit in-game, but anything less “skimpy” than that is certainly possible on a male character while still looking good.

I think there are plenty of skimpy options in the game for females (And only a couple for males… and even then they’re hardly “skimpy”), so having some non-skimpy light armor sets would be wonderful, and maybe have breast plates that don’t form around boobs and still jiggle despite being a hunk of metal.

Additionally, if there was a 1:1 skimpy armor ratio and non-skimpy armor ratio between the men and the female characters, I would view that as fine. Or even if male characters could wear female armor designs and vice-versa — that would be positively wonderful.

I’m sure that a lot of ppl would wear an hentaikamen “suit” on their male chara.
I would find it funny, and since there are a lot of other immersion-breaking things, it woulnd’t bother me at all. I vote for skimpy on male too.

Zalyn.9534:

More options for all are great!

An example of RL dude rocking a sexy, skimpy adventuring outfit, to prove it can be done: http://fashionablygeek.com/costumes/gender-bent-erotic-metal-gear-solid-v-cosplay-is-fantastic/

And a good commentary on why “boobplate” is a bad idea: http://www.tor.com/blogs/2013/05/boob-plate-armor-would-kill-you

That guy rocks. I want his stuff for my human male and I don’t care who knows it!.

Larynx.2453:

Zalyn.9534:

More options for all are great!

An example of RL dude rocking a sexy, skimpy adventuring outfit, to prove it can be done: http://fashionablygeek.com/costumes/gender-bent-erotic-metal-gear-solid-v-cosplay-is-fantastic/

Uh yeah. There’s a reason ArenaNet doesn’t have armor like that in this game. That looks kittening ridiculous.

How about you take off the “shirt” and actually wear more than a thong. You can have skimpy male armor, but that’s not male armor. There’s a reason men in dresses look bad.

Battle lingerie for women looks ‘ridiculous’ to a lot of people, but it still exists. Your opinion on how men look in revealing armour is not objective fact. What looks good and what looks bad is completely subjective, and a lot of people think differently, including a lot of real people out there who wear clothing opposite to the stereotypical norms of their gender. Consider what the opinion used to be on women wearing trousers. Now it’s perfectly acceptable. There’s no objective fact in this trend – it’s just a social perspective shift and a growth of acceptance.

On the MGS cosplay dude . . . dang, those fishnets . . . <3 It makes me hate even more the fact that the latest medium armour in the gemstore had those sexy lattices on the female that showed the underlying skin, but the dudes are still apparently allergic to direct sunlight.

Ridiculous? Probably if it was in real life.
GW2 is a fantasy game. You’d have to delete 95% of the game to make it “more realistic”, professions, monsters, magic, etc.
So it’s pointless to talk about realism.

[@Mods: This contains sarcasm, please no more infringement point because of sarcasm]

When a woman wants to kick your kitten, she won’t wear lingerie, she will wear some huge, intimidating armor and smack you with a Greatsword. On some level im a huge fan of RPing and when walk tyria im always imagining how these are real places and real people. It always makes me smile when I see a female character wearing skimpy armor cause I imagine how she would explain her armor choice. It would sound like something along the lines of:

[sarcasm stars here]
- Yea, I just wore this for years, people know me like this
- It makes me more mobile and agile, you know? I just don’t get hit
- Err, all of this practical armor is just too heavy for my fragile body, I just can’t wear it…
- Invisible magical force field all the way!!
- It fits my naturally blue hair color! Eww! Shooes!
- I want something to remind me of the ordeals of Arah.. yes, its a Plate Bikini
- Im “Emma Enignma” don’t event start asking me stuff..
- Are you RPing? Lol nubz!

Miroe.2054:

[@Mods: This contains sarcasm, please no more infringement point because of sarcasm]

When a woman wants to kick your kitten, she won’t wear lingerie, she will wear some huge, intimidating armor and smack you with a Greatsword. On some level im a huge fan of RPing and when walk tyria im always imagining how these are real places and real people. It always makes me smile when I see a female character wearing skimpy armor cause I imagine how she would explain her armor choice. It would sound like something along the lines of:

[sarcasm stars here]
- Yea, I just wore this for years, people know me like this
- It makes me more mobile and agile, you know? I just don’t get hit
- Err, all of this practical armor is just too heavy for my fragile body, I just can’t wear it…
- Invisible magical force field all the way!!
- It fits my naturally blue hair color! Eww! Shooes!
- I want something to remind me of the ordeals of Arah.. yes, its a Plate Bikini
- Im “Emma Enignma” don’t event start asking me stuff..
- Are you RPing? Lol nubz!

Hehe Almost all these sarcastic comments could have been said of me :P

But anyway, would your reaction had been the same meeting a guy with the Gladiator or pit-fighter armor?

I like skimpy armors as I said before and I like that it is so common in fantasy but as for GW2 I would like more Skimpy armors for dudes. Like Light armor like the clothes Alading has in the Disney versions or there are some good examples Hayate has in DoA. I don’t like wrestling skimpy but I do like menclothes that has flair and fasion just like woman clothing. I do like it IRL too, but sadly IRL male clothing is mostly jeans or tuxedo pants and a white shirt or a cardigan :P All so strict and simple…

Skimpy for both male and female please!!!

Miroe.2054:

[@Mods: This contains sarcasm, please no more infringement point because of sarcasm]

When a woman wants to kick your kitten, she won’t wear lingerie, she will wear some huge, intimidating armor and smack you with a Greatsword. On some level im a huge fan of RPing and when walk tyria im always imagining how these are real places and real people. It always makes me smile when I see a female character wearing skimpy armor cause I imagine how she would explain her armor choice. It would sound like something along the lines of:

[sarcasm stars here]
- Yea, I just wore this for years, people know me like this
- It makes me more mobile and agile, you know? I just don’t get hit
- Err, all of this practical armor is just too heavy for my fragile body, I just can’t wear it…
- Invisible magical force field all the way!!
- It fits my naturally blue hair color! Eww! Shooes!
- I want something to remind me of the ordeals of Arah.. yes, its a Plate Bikini
- Im “Emma Enignma” don’t event start asking me stuff..
- Are you RPing? Lol nubz!

- Oh, and dying is just a few silvers for wping, so i rather dying beautiful than living in ugly armor.

EdgarMTanaka.7291:

But anyway, would your reaction had been the same meeting a guy with the Gladiator or pit-fighter armor?

I guess no.. never thought about it actually. I guess its because I rarely see Conans, Kratos’es and Drogos.

But hey, in fantasy and especially in GW2 90% of the characters are idealized stereotypes which is perfectly ok. Its just kind of interesting how many players still try to max the amount of naked skin on their character the way they try to max Power of Precision. This leads to a lot of characters looking very similar. So in this regard I am very much for more diverse skimpy armors.

I swear, everytime I see a T3 cult equipped female human thief with the flower hairstyle unstealthing and Attacking me I hear a 12-year old teenager yelling “BOOBS!!” in my head.
I think id just like to see more players taking their female characters more seriously. It doesn’t have to be right out RPing. Just trying to cultivate the “cool” instead of the “cute” when playing one. (Im looking at you, Rox-Big-Lashes)

Hey… I can’t be cute or sexy in real life. I’m ugly as a brick… and have the charisma and shape of one.
So, let me be pretty in videogames at least!!

Yep many mostly fantasy armors have things that are for show and intimidating the enemy when they would be dangerous. Sort of male version of the boob cups.

Now the hard fantasy part of me would have both men and women wear historically accurate medium and heavy armors. Yes you could take off your helmet but only out of battle. Plus you could actually tell what your opponent is armed with in PVP like you could in real life.

Sexy outfits should be confined to light armors and bringing back town clothes this time with lots of individual separates so that more people like and use it.

Light armor is sort of a mistake as in the dice and paper games this all based on there was no light armor just clothing. And there no light armor in real life examples used by non hand to hand fighters, padded armor not sexy looking, not really light as it was bulky actually similar to some of the medium armor and a poor option used mainly by second class troops. Instead of armor you had rings of protection and other protective magical jewelry where items like those to help non magic armor users were rare to non existent.

So non armor users could use a wide selection of town clothes into battle or just their more sexy than the bland underwear the game has now. Instead of armor slot way more ring and accessory slots. And clothing makers could make town clothes and useful non armor things like flying carpets some day. Not expecting a light armor change like I just stated.

Lishtenbird.2814:

Taku.6352:

You should also put an option for: “I like both styles and would love to have more choices for both.”

I think “Everything is fine and we have enough options for both.” is pretty much this. As new armour is added anyway, it just tells that the proportion is fine.

Not really, I like both,but … we definitely have more skimpy than non skimpy

Taygus.4571:

Lishtenbird.2814:

Taku.6352:

You should also put an option for: “I like both styles and would love to have more choices for both.”

I think “Everything is fine and we have enough options for both.” is pretty much this. As new armour is added anyway, it just tells that the proportion is fine.

Not really, I like both,but … we definitely have more skimpy than non skimpy

No, we don’t:

Sartharina.3542:

Darkobra.6439:

I like skimpy but I think we should have more non-skimpy now. We got enough of one, let’s bring the other up to par.

We have 15 Skimpy vs 27 Non-skimpy female light armors. We have ~5 skimpy vs 37 Non-skimpy female Medium armors(But a lot more low-cut tops). We have 9 skimpy vs 33 non-skimpy female heavy armors (Unfortunately, all faction armors are skimpy).

We have 5 skimpy vs. 37 non-skimpy male light armors. We have 0(!) skimpy vs 42 non-skimpy male medium armors. We have 5 skimpy vs. 37 non-skimpy male heavy armors.

I considered any armor that exposes any part of the torso (Other than neckline) or legs to be ‘skimpy’ for the purpose of this examination, which means a lot of armors that are ‘skimpy’ still cover a significant amount of the body.

Yes, there’s an imbalance and one side needs to be brought up to par with the other. It’s not the non-skimpy side, though.

The problems can be:

a) most non-skimpy armour looks the same,
b) many players prefer skimpy armour, and because options are limited, they wear the same things and it looks like there’s too much skimpy armour.

Both are perception problems which do not correspond to the actual data.

Larynx.2453:

Zalyn.9534:

More options for all are great!

An example of RL dude rocking a sexy, skimpy adventuring outfit, to prove it can be done: http://fashionablygeek.com/costumes/gender-bent-erotic-metal-gear-solid-v-cosplay-is-fantastic/

Uh yeah. There’s a reason ArenaNet doesn’t have armor like that in this game. That looks kittening ridiculous.

How about you take off the “shirt” and actually wear more than a thong. You can have skimpy male armor, but that’s not male armor. There’s a reason men in dresses look bad.

I agree.

Tbh, I think there is a considerable amount of middle ground that people don’t cover. Take Conan the Barbarian for males (Braham’s is somewhat close to this) and Vabbian from GW1 for females. They can be skimpy and be elegant at the same time.

Also I find realism to be stupid. Why should it be that real? I mean…bringing down fire storms and summoning the dead seems like we left realism a long time ago.

I voted #5, but what I really want to vote for is “No gendered armor at all, each outfit should be the same for both genders”.

Demented Sheep.1642:

Funny of “attractive in different ways” tends to mean guys don’t get sexualized overtly and instead get ‘strong’.
Guess what? a lot of girls would like that “forced equality”. If we have deal with your kitten you should deal with ours.

Bullseye! Thank you.

No, (straight) dudes, a heavily muscled guy who maybe has his shirt off is NOT sexualized in the same manner as a scrawny slip of a girl with inflated boobs, heels and frilly underwear.

Larynx.2453:

Uh yeah. There’s a reason ArenaNet doesn’t have armor like that in this game. That looks kittening ridiculous.

So a half-naked man (un)dressed to look “sexy” is ridiculous, while half-naked women (un)dressed to look “sexy” are par on course. That is exactly the problem. We’re pretty much brainwashed from birth to not only accept but demand ridiculous, objectifying and even degrading images from women.

If you don’t like seeing a dude made up like that, it should be a wake-up call of how the hetero male gaze that we’re supposed to think of as the natural default treats women. What’s good for the goose should be good for the gander. If it isn’t, something’s messed up.

By all means, people should be able to have and enjoy their skimpy “armor” — for both genders. An outfit that looks like flamboyantly decorated lingerie on the girls should be a flamboyantly decorated banana hammock on the boys.

Miroe.2054:

[@Mods: This contains sarcasm, please no more infringement point because of sarcasm]

When a woman wants to kick your kitten, she won’t wear lingerie, she will wear some huge, intimidating armor and smack you with a Greatsword. On some level im a huge fan of RPing and when walk tyria im always imagining how these are real places and real people. It always makes me smile when I see a female character wearing skimpy armor cause I imagine how she would explain her armor choice. It would sound like something along the lines of:

[sarcasm stars here]
- Yea, I just wore this for years, people know me like this
- It makes me more mobile and agile, you know? I just don’t get hit
- Err, all of this practical armor is just too heavy for my fragile body, I just can’t wear it…
- Invisible magical force field all the way!!
- It fits my naturally blue hair color! Eww! Shooes!
- I want something to remind me of the ordeals of Arah.. yes, its a Plate Bikini
- Im “Emma Enignma” don’t event start asking me stuff..
- Are you RPing? Lol nubz!

the game isnt real. In all honesty real armor would be a horrible idea in the actual GW2 universe. In fact the skimpy armor would probably be more useful.

big bulk armor is actually pretty bad, its heavy, restricts movement, and doesnt protect you that well from many things
like bullets, fire, electricity, water, makes you more likely to get hit by objects hurled at you. Essentially in a world with magic energy, and bullets, its a real bad idea. In fact i think the main advantage of armor is probably from arrows, and cutting blades.

Now, if you take a look at skimpy armor, it gives you better movement, but protects key areas, with skill and knowing where you have armor, you can use it as neccessary to block without losing speed/freedom of movement. This is one of the reasons why gladiators were not in general heavy armored, as well the majority of soldiers.

anyhow reality doesnt really matter here, so ignore most of my comments, lets just say this, the reason you dress in a certain way in GW2 is because thats how you want to dress. For rping sake you must assume that the primary defense that applies is magical, otherwise, you should be moving at a stones pace in armor, take a long time to suit up, sink in water, the list goes on.

So once you accept the magic angle, then it really does become an issue of fashion

Maybe it’s because I hang around the beach way too much, but I don’t see someone wearing a regular swim suit to be sexualized.

I don’t know how to correctly explain it but skimpy doesn’t really equates to being sexualized. It’s what the clothing is trying to draw attention to that makes it.
A swim suit is just there to be practical and not be arrested by cops. A mini skirt, with fishnet stockings is there to say “available”.
Ivy’s outfits (from Soul Calibur) cover far more than a plain 2 piece swim suit, yet it’s incredibly more sexualized than it.

As for guys, people rarely focus on their legs. And there’s only so much you can do to make a male character sexy.

Try doing a google search with “sexy girl” and “sexy dude”. For women you get dresses, skirts, shirts, corsets, lingerie, etc. For men you get shirtless with pants, shirtless with shorts, shirtless with boxers, shirtless with open shirt.

And before someone thinks about reading between the lines : I find that FFIV armor as ridiculous for women and for men. Same for that metal gear outfit (why the hell would you wear a top…). But I wouldn’t care that much if it was added. But it won’t ever be.
I don’t want a swimsuit armor. Hell, if I wanted to I’d wear the backless, strapless, barely covering your nipples top with the mini mini skirt.
I want GW1 light and medium armor back. It didn’t make my character look disproportionate nor did it look like it weighed a ton. It simply looked good (for some. Some of them were terrible but at least I had enough choice, unlike in GW2 where I can barely find 1).

Chadramar.8156:

So a half-naked man (un)dressed to look “sexy” is ridiculous, while half-naked women (un)dressed to look “sexy” are par on course. That is exactly the problem. We’re pretty much brainwashed from birth to not only accept but demand ridiculous, objectifying and even degrading images from women.

If you don’t like seeing a dude made up like that, it should be a wake-up call of how the hetero male gaze that we’re supposed to think of as the natural default treats women. What’s good for the goose should be good for the gander. If it isn’t, something’s messed up.

By all means, people should be able to have and enjoy their skimpy “armor” — for both genders. An outfit that looks like flamboyantly decorated lingerie on the girls should be a flamboyantly decorated banana hammock on the boys.

I’d argue that most women (and probably a few gay men as well) also think those Final Fantasy outfits look pretty ridiculous.

‘Sexy’ simply does not work the same way for both genders. Yes – as a society we are far more comfortable with feminine expressions of sexuality – but you cannot force males to be equally sexualised. Our bodies are different and perceived differently. Would you also propose that female characters’ nipples should be displayed?Y’know…for equality, of course.

I can appreciate why you want to instigate change in society’s perception and attitude towards this issue. However for the time being, accept that it will take time for this to occur (if it ever does).

RedStar.4218:

As for guys, people rarely focus on their legs. And there’s only so much you can do to make a male character sexy.

Try doing a google search with “sexy girl” and “sexy dude”. For women you get dresses, skirts, shirts, corsets, lingerie, etc. For men you get shirtless with pants, shirtless with shorts, shirtless with boxers, shirtless with open shirt.

I’m sure that if we asked the right groups of people, we could get some very viable options for making male characters sexy and also collect good data on body parts of men that appeal to women and men into dudes. Not playing the realism card, just refuting the “impossible” claim against male avatar sexiness and skimpyness.

Chadramar.8156:

I voted #5, but what I really want to vote for is “No gendered armor at all, each outfit should be the same for both genders”.

Demented Sheep.1642:

Funny of “attractive in different ways” tends to mean guys don’t get sexualized overtly and instead get ‘strong’.
Guess what? a lot of girls would like that “forced equality”. If we have deal with your kitten you should deal with ours.

Bullseye! Thank you.

No, (straight) dudes, a heavily muscled guy who maybe has his shirt off is NOT sexualized in the same manner as a scrawny slip of a girl with inflated boobs, heels and frilly underwear.

Larynx.2453:

Uh yeah. There’s a reason ArenaNet doesn’t have armor like that in this game. That looks kittening ridiculous.

So a half-naked man (un)dressed to look “sexy” is ridiculous, while half-naked women (un)dressed to look “sexy” are par on course. That is exactly the problem. We’re pretty much brainwashed from birth to not only accept but demand ridiculous, objectifying and even degrading images from women.

If you don’t like seeing a dude made up like that, it should be a wake-up call of how the hetero male gaze that we’re supposed to think of as the natural default treats women. What’s good for the goose should be good for the gander. If it isn’t, something’s messed up.

By all means, people should be able to have and enjoy their skimpy “armor” — for both genders. An outfit that looks like flamboyantly decorated lingerie on the girls should be a flamboyantly decorated banana hammock on the boys.

the problem with your theory is you want to apply the same type of ascetic to men and women, when it currently for most people is not the same.
Skimpy, you can define as how much flesh is covered, but what you are talking about has no definition, you just want to put men in the same thing as women to prove a point, but its not really proving anything but that men and women dress differently irrelevant to sexiness.

look at this gw1 armor
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080827201205/gw_/images/1/17/Monk_Star_Armor_M_gray_front.jpg

almost all naked, and yet i dont think it even really comes across as sexy.
The reality is, its all in your head, my head, etc. What you dont really like is that people are dressing charachters in ways you find offensive, but thats impossible to police. They have a great number (more than they have skimpy) of armors that are fully clothed. People just like the skimpy ones on average. Blame the people, not the designers.

phys.7689:

The reality is, its all in your head, my head, etc. What you dont really like is that people are dressing charachters in ways you find offensive, but thats impossible to police. They have a great number (more than they have skimpy) of armors that are fully clothed. Straight male gamers just like the skimpy ones on female characters on average. Blame the people, not the designers.

Fixed that for you. It seemed that they just wanted an option to dress a male character in a skimpy outfit too, yet you are policing their desire to do that. Why? Unless your (corrected) statement really was intended to be universal – that most gamers of all sorts want skimpy outfits on all types of avatars – then you’re just promoting one perspective over others.

Zalyn.9534:

I’m sure that if we asked the right groups of people, we could get some very viable options for making male characters sexy and also collect good data on body parts of men that appeal to women and men into dudes. Not playing the realism card, just refuting the “impossible” claim against male avatar sexiness and skimpyness.

I’m not saying men can’t be sexy. But while women have dozens of choices to be sexy and skimpy, men don’t have too much.
They have few choices to be sexy, and even fewer to be sexy and skimpy without being borderline “ADULT ONLY”.
But Anet could do a bit sexier pants by making them a bit more low-rise or at least making the character wear the pants more “inclined” (can’t really explain that) instead of straight around the waist.

Zalyn.9534:

phys.7689:

The reality is, its all in your head, my head, etc. What you dont really like is that people are dressing charachters in ways you find offensive, but thats impossible to police. They have a great number (more than they have skimpy) of armors that are fully clothed. Straight male gamers just like the skimpy ones on female characters on average. Blame the people, not the designers.

Fixed that for you. It seemed that they just wanted an option to dress a male character in a skimpy outfit too, yet you are policing their desire to do that. Why? Unless your (corrected) statement really was intended to be universal – that most gamers of all sorts want skimpy outfits on all types of avatars – then you’re just promoting one perspective over others.

i am not policing anything, i am pointing out that the picture is not about skimpy or not skimpy, the picture is about wanting to dress men in womens styles, which is a fine argument, but dont conflate it with skimpyness. gladiator is just as skimpy as the posted picture. GW1 monk is even more skimpy than the posted picture. Be clear in what you mean, if you want men in what is considered by western culture to be women’s clothes, that is a totally different issue.

and dont try to assign values to what i say, that i didnt say.

im just speaking logically,
IF people in fact see skimpy armor everywhere they look, AND it turns out skimpy armor represents 10-20% of any armor classes choice, the implication is players (and i wont assume anything about these players) are selecting the skimpier armor.

RedStar.4218:

But Anet could do a bit sexier pants by making them a bit more low-rise or at least making the character wear the pants more “inclined” (can’t really explain that) instead of straight around the waist.

You speak of revealing the “Apollo’s Belt.”

I too wish for the lower rise trouser that would help reveal this deliciousness on males.

Make it so.

^_^

RedStar.4218:

Zalyn.9534:

I’m sure that if we asked the right groups of people, we could get some very viable options for making male characters sexy and also collect good data on body parts of men that appeal to women and men into dudes. Not playing the realism card, just refuting the “impossible” claim against male avatar sexiness and skimpyness.

I’m not saying men can’t be sexy. But while women have dozens of choices to be sexy and skimpy, men don’t have too much.
They have few choices to be sexy, and even fewer to be sexy and skimpy without being borderline “ADULT ONLY”.
But Anet could do a bit sexier pants by making them a bit more low-rise or at least making the character wear the pants more “inclined” (can’t really explain that) instead of straight around the waist.

Personally I disagree with the above belief that apparently only women are “sexy” when showing their bodies and men are not. Actually kittenes me off a bit.

I have always loved armor styles like gladiator armor. Characters in the 300 movies or Spartacus series come to mind.

phys.7689:

i am not policing anything, i am pointing out that the picture is not about skimpy or not skimpy, the picture is about wanting to dress men in womens styles, which is a fine argument, but dont conflate it with skimpyness. gladiator is just as skimpy as the posted picture. GW1 monk is even more skimpy than the posted picture. Be clear in what you mean, if you want men in what is considered by western culture to be women’s clothes, that is a totally different issue.

and dont try to assign values to what i say, that i didnt say.

im just speaking logically,
IF people in fact see skimpy armor everywhere they look, AND it turns out skimpy armor represents 10-20% of any armor classes choice, the implication is players (and i wont assume anything about these players) are selecting the skimpier armor.

First, I don’t see the cosplayer as dressing in “women’s style,” he transformed what was a costume on a female character into a pretty interesting masculine version. I don’t see him as “feminine” in that picture – he looks like he’s ready to kick some serious tail – and I don’t understand why covering up his nipples makes it a “women’s style” per se. He also is visually appealing in a way that isn’t commonly seen in men, which is why I posted it – to open up discussion and possibilities. Quite a few people here do find it interesting.

Second, why are people who are not okay with his costume okay with gladiator costumes? Yes, there is something besides skimpyness going on…

Third, you may be speaking in a logical fashion, but you are inaccurate because you are making a portion of the gamer population representative of the whole when that does not fit the data nor the comments in this thread indicating that many would like to see skimpy and sexy outfits for male characters. I am also speaking logically in pointing out the inconsistencies in the realism arguments, the possibility arguments, and the visual appeal arguments.

Azhure.1857:

Personally I disagree with the above belief that apparently only women are “sexy” when showing their bodies and men are not. Actually kittenes me off a bit.

I have always loved armor styles like gladiator armor. Characters in the 300 movies or Spartacus series come to mind.

I didn’t say that men can’t be sexy when showing off their bodies…I said that they don’t have a lot of design choices to do it.
For the upper body it’s either :
-shirtless
-open shirt/jacket
-open mini shirt/jacket
-something covering one pec
-a belt going diagonally

For lower :
-pants
-shorts
-gladiator skirt

For women you take all of the above, plus add different kind of neckline, lacing, frills, design difference, etc. You could try to put it on men, but those things are too feminine to go nicely on a masculine men.

And yep, I was thinking of Apollo’s belt.

Zalyn.9534:

phys.7689:

i am not policing anything, i am pointing out that the picture is not about skimpy or not skimpy, the picture is about wanting to dress men in womens styles, which is a fine argument, but dont conflate it with skimpyness. gladiator is just as skimpy as the posted picture. GW1 monk is even more skimpy than the posted picture. Be clear in what you mean, if you want men in what is considered by western culture to be women’s clothes, that is a totally different issue.

and dont try to assign values to what i say, that i didnt say.

im just speaking logically,
IF people in fact see skimpy armor everywhere they look, AND it turns out skimpy armor represents 10-20% of any armor classes choice, the implication is players (and i wont assume anything about these players) are selecting the skimpier armor.

First, I don’t see the cosplayer as dressing in “women’s style,” he transformed what was a costume on a female character into a pretty interesting masculine version. I don’t see him as “feminine” in that picture – he looks like he’s ready to kick some serious tail – and I don’t understand why covering up his nipples makes it a “women’s style” per se. He also is visually appealing in a way that isn’t commonly seen in men, which is why I posted it – to open up discussion and possibilities. Quite a few people here do find it interesting.

Second, why are people who are not okay with his costume okay with gladiator costumes? Yes, there is something besides skimpyness going on…

Third, you may be speaking in a logical fashion, but you are inaccurate because you are making a portion of the gamer population representative of the whole when that does not fit the data nor the comments in this thread indicating that many would like to see skimpy and sexy outfits for male characters. I am also speaking logically in pointing out the inconsistencies in the realism arguments, the possibility arguments, and the visual appeal arguments.

notice i said what is a womens style by western cultures definition. There is no actual style that truely belongs to men or to women. However, culturally there are, but this is not objective, there is no universal sexy and universal male/female.

As for if the dude is dressing in a womans style, or just trying to make an interesting design, i will go with a womans style, because he is specifically trying to make his costume look like a specific charachters costume(almost verbatim). But thats up for debate, i have no idea what his motivation/vision is. Regardless, i wouldnt care if they added armor of this type, as long as they added more armor styles overall.

As for why they are ok with gladiator but not his armor? because like i said, its not an issue of skimpyness, its a case of going up against cultural norms. If your goal is to go up against cultural norms, then that is totally different argument. Which is not to say you cant make the argument, just dont try to lump it in with skimpyness, its not really that related.

3rd i am being logical and accurate, i am not discussing differences in population gender/orientation because none of us have that data. The data you speak about in this thread is not even there. You have people of all backgrounds asking for different things. some women want skimpy men like gladiator, some men want ffxiv for males, some women want neither. You are the one who are misrepresenting people, i am not going to make claims about what straight men, or straight women or gay men or gay women want, that would be stereotyping people and making assumptions about their values based on sex/orientation.

Speak for yourself, you have some valid points, but dont try to claim straight men want this, or straight women want that, you have no idea what everyone else wants.
Saying you want some culture defying fashions for males is fine, but dont frame it as an orientation/gender thing. Make real arguments based on real data/reasoning/ideals

Jahroots.6791:

I’d argue that most women (and probably a few gay men as well) also think those Final Fantasy outfits look pretty ridiculous..

Okay? So some people would think those outfits on men are ridiculous. Some people think the t3 human medium female armor or the zodiac armor is ridiculous. All you’ve managed to point out is that people have varying opinions. I think boob armor is ridiculous and think that a similar look on a man would be this but I’m sure someone would claim that’s somehow more ridiculous. Yay, opinions.

Jahroots.6791:

‘Sexy’ simply does not work the same way for both genders. Yes – as a society we are far more comfortable with feminine expressions of sexuality – but you cannot force males to be equally sexualised. Our bodies are different and perceived differently. Would you also propose that female characters’ nipples should be displayed?Y’know…for equality, of course.

I disagree; I think sexy works very similarly. You’ve got the flesh factor, whatever’s left is form-fitting or loose but practically a scrap. Primarily we find it sexy when these are elements done to parts we cover with underwear. We’ve already had female breasts exposed with the Zodiac armor, and we get female pantyshots all the time in GW2 armor. There are armor sets where girls bend over and you can see their butt crack (human t3 light). I’d love armor that allows the same on men, with just some straps and tight-fitting fishnet. Like this or this.

For example, the female version of t3 med human on a male would look something like this. That’s pretty skimpy and sexy. It’s tight, the pants are super low-cut, you’ve got cut-outs along the leg and straps… it’s really not that hard to transfer the brand of sexiness usually reserved for females onto men. It’s exactly the same as the female version. I would def. buy that.

I don’t understand where the preoccupation with noting that differences in anatomy exist (never would have known…) or why you insist sexy is so different between the genders. Tell me then, since you obviously know more about lusting over males than I do: what does a guy have to wear to be considered sexy? Cause I’d consider those female armor on men images sexy and skimpy.

Jahroots.6791:

I can appreciate why you want to instigate change in society’s perception and attitude towards this issue. However for the time being, accept that it will take time for this to occur (if it ever does)

As for your dismissal at the end… sure. I think everyone who considers themselves any kind of advocate understands that change is slow. It would become even slower/nonexistent if you stop demanding it or critiquing the media that gets put out into the world and consumed en masse. It’s a little insulting to hear this at the end of every discussion on video game armor, because it’s insinuating that we don’t already understand that and that this fact somehow means we should be quiet. “Change is slow” doesn’t change any of the heart of the conversation, it’s just a sentence that tells me to sit down and be quiet.

phys.7689:

the problem with your theory is you want to apply the same type of ascetic to men and women, when it currently for most people is not the same.

… what. Skimpy is skimpy, whether it’s on a guy or girl. There’s no difference in aesthetic there. I mean, yeah I find guys in suits hot and girls in ballgowns hot too, but we are talking about skimpiness here. Gimme some kitten chaps or some low slung pants on a guy, some crotch pouches or barely there shirts. Show off those arms and muscled legs. I’d love to know what survey said people attracted to men don’t find men’s bodies sexy.

phys.7689:

Skimpy, you can define as how much flesh is covered, but what you are talking about has no definition, you just want to put men in the same thing as women to prove a point, but its not really proving anything but that men and women dress differently irrelevant to sexiness.

What they are talking about is equality in skimpiness, shorthanded in the thread down to “sexiness” sometimes. Yes, we do want to put men in the same thing as women (and vice versa! Phalanx armor, for example. Put the male phalanx armor on women). “It’s not really proving anything but that men and women dress differently irrelevant to sexiness” This is ridiculous. We’re not talking about how men and women dress themselves, we’re talking about how armor designers dress men and women video game characters. I don’t know many women who dress themselves in just panties and a bra to go to the office or grab starbucks (the beach or a pool is obviously different), or many soldiers who slap on a bikini and a gun, and yet here we are. For people who like to throw out the “it’s a fantasy, of course they’d wear underwear to battle” arguments, it’s funny how that line of thought just doesn’t apply to the male characters.

phys.7689:

look at this gw1 armor
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080827201205/gw_/images/1/17/Monk_Star_Armor_M_gray_front.jpg

almost all naked, and yet i dont think it even really comes across as sexy.
The reality is, its all in your head, my head, etc. What you dont really like is that people are dressing charachters in ways you find offensive, but thats impossible to police. They have a great number (more than they have skimpy) of armors that are fully clothed. People just like the skimpy ones on average. Blame the people, not the designers.

You’re right. They’re half naked and covered in tattoos but it’s not necessarily sexy or objectifying. You know what aids that line of thought? Showing the female version alongside it. They are both mostly nude but for thick cloth underwear – not just underwear but underwear with modesty loincloths over the form-fitting element. They are both equally skimpy and the armor looks like the same exact set. There is beautiful detail and intricate care taken in the tattoo portion of that armor (I love that and Labyrinthine armor from GW1, favorite sets of mine). That is a wonderful example of male and female skimpiness equality :)

What we don’t like is an armor set that is supposedly the same looking radically different on males and females, usually in favor of more skin on the females. I do blame the designers for that, not the players. I have skimpy armor on some of my ladies. I don’t understand why I can’t do the same for my men or why people are telling me no one finds it attractive when there are people here flat out telling you that they do.

RedStar.4218:

Azhure.1857:

Personally I disagree with the above belief that apparently only women are “sexy” when showing their bodies and men are not. Actually kittenes me off a bit.

I have always loved armor styles like gladiator armor. Characters in the 300 movies or Spartacus series come to mind.

I didn’t say that men can’t be sexy when showing off their bodies…I said that they don’t have a lot of design choices to do it.
For the upper body it’s either :
-shirtless
-open shirt/jacket
-open mini shirt/jacket
-something covering one pec
-a belt going diagonally

For lower :
-pants
-shorts
-gladiator skirt

For women you take all of the above, plus add different kind of neckline, lacing, frills, design difference, etc. You could try to put it on men, but those things are too feminine to go nicely on a masculine men.

And yep, I was thinking of Apollo’s belt.

Wasn’t positive if you meant what’s currently available in games or not, but I can add some more:

- Fishnet shirts
- No shirt option, just intricate tattoo designs
- Front piece that only covers the chest (Some of the FFXIV designs:

http://borderhouseblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/subligar-e1376242361605-249x300.jpg

http://www.majhost.com/gallery/BZP-Spink/FFXIV/ffxiv_09092013_115312.png

http://cdn.dualshockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/FFXIV_Equality_010-670x376.jpg?57efa4

- Corset-esque designs would be nice, and I’ve seen traditionally “masculine” males wear corsets without any visual changes to them and still look wonderful. (I imagine stylistic tweaking would easily push around this whole “that’s for girls” thing)
- There is a light armor shirt in GW2 that shows off the male chest/stomach pretty well (I forget the name… Feathered Chest, I think?) and that could be augmented with shorter sleeves pretty easily, maybe even an open back.
- Belly windows

There’s likely more, but I’m not the best person for fashion and clothing designs in the world. Even if not so many more options, the designers and artists on the GW2 staff could likely come up with something original.

For pants and stuff, you could have:

- Speedos (Final Fantasy XIV had this gratuitously, there were quite a few different colors, patterns and a few styles)
- Any sort of fishnet stockings and the like, a female armor set had something like this that was ignored for the male counterpart of the same set. Can’t quite remember what the set was… it was mentioned in here, somewhere, so I’m not imagining things.
- Shorter Gladiator leggings.
- Subligar (but with better dye options than in Final Fantasy XIV)
- Speedo-esque option with intricate tattoo designs running up and down the legs.
- Other short skirt-ish/kilt-ish wear (like, what Conan the Barbarian wears, stuff of that nature).

- Or give men the women heavy-armor treatment and have it molded to their rears and give them butt jiggle (since the male characters in this game lack the boobs for it).

That’s just some more options from someone who isn’t that knowledgeable about men’s fashion as a whole, but I do reiterate that having more regal sorts of skirts/dresses/etc… available to male characters would be positively wonderful. My sylvari male would utterly love to wear the light female starter set.

And I do have to say that the traditional women’s options you listed (lacy, frilly, deep necklines, etc…) would all look positively fine on masculine men. Yeah, it’s not going to be the “most kitten armor in the world” but it’d still look cute and attractive.

kimeekat.2548:

<snip!>[

I just wanted to say I wish I could +1 your posts here more than once.

I also want to thank you personally for sharing the pictures you did. I shall leave the forums for this evening a happy woman, yet one who wishes her male game characters were allowed to wear something similar to the pics (I really liked the coat and underwear set. I think I’d like optional low-cut trousers in addition (removal depends on climate, I’m thinking sensibly, of course), and some nice boots for my twig and human mesmers. )

phys.7689:

notice i said what is a womens style by western cultures definition. There is no actual style that truely belongs to men or to women. However, culturally there are, but this is not objective, there is no universal sexy and universal male/female.

Actually, there are a lot of people who do try to argue that female bodies are universally more sexy / aesthetic than male ones across cultures.

Why are we sticking to Western culture? Surely there are many cultural / historical influences for costumes in the game? But okay, I’ll bite, here’s are some really perverse men in “feminine” lace, tights, high heels, and wigs in Western culture:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Louis_XIV_of_France.jpg
http://historyofeuropeanfashion.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/baroqueman3.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Portrait_of_Charles_IX.jpg

ETA:

I just wanted to say I wish I could +1 your posts here more than once.

Seconded. Thank you for the great image resources! A friend of mine is a fashion designer, so they’ll love the inspiration.

Jahroots.6791:

‘Sexy’ simply does not work the same way for both genders. Yes – as a society we are far more comfortable with feminine expressions of sexuality – but you cannot force males to be equally sexualised. Our bodies are different and perceived differently.

The key word here is “perceived”. There is a huge cultural element of men-are-THIS, woman-are-THAT forced on us, and the “THIS” is usually considered superior, so anything that treats men more like women is basically blasphemy. If men are sexualized, that’s “gay” or “emasculating”, because being made to be sexy is for women, so men simply are not, cannot be, must not be sexy.

If we “allowed” men to be sexualized, if we “forced” men to be sexualized like woman are all the time, you bet people would come up with a great number of ways to make it so. Some of these ways would be impractical, uncomfortable or flat-out health hazards … as it is for women. Some men might be horrified, others might find it empowering or liberating … just as women react differently, too.

Would you also propose that female characters’ nipples should be displayed?Y’know…for equality, of course.

It’d actually be awesome if the female chest was treated more like the male: no big deal, unless context and intent deliberately make it so. So if there is actual equality overall in terms of which outfit is designed to be sexualized and which is not, then yes. It’s not like some of the existing “armors” leave much to the imagination as it is. This puerile “Tee-hee, look look look BOOOOOOOOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But it’s fine cuz no nipples so you can’t say it’s porn!” attitude that is so widespread in female character design in various forms of entertainment annoys me to no end — showing the whole thing could actually end up feeling less objectifying, as well as more honest.

Look at that impressive image from GW1 that phys linked (thanks, by the way). I agree that it’s not sexy even though the guy shows a whole lot of skin. There’s no emphasis or attention on his “assets”, instead he’s a stunning whole-body work of human art. If a female character was presented in exactly the same way, bare chest and all, it’d be far less sexualized than many female outfits in GW2 that put a nudge-nudge-wink-wink fig leaf over the breasts.

I can appreciate why you want to instigate change in society’s perception and attitude towards this issue. However for the time being, accept that it will take time for this to occur (if it ever does).

If nobody speaks up, or if they do but are silenced, it won’t change, either.

phys.7689:

They have a great number (more than they have skimpy) of armors that are fully clothed.

My problem isn’t just the ones that are show a lot of skin. Just barely hiding something or mostly covering it but drawing attention to it via frills or fishnets or boob windows or whatever also plays a part in objectification/sexualization. Plus, there’s the frequently huge difference in theme and design, especially with light armor. Men get the default, the original theme. Women get something that screams “LOOK A FEMALE!” which may end up looking very different or even nothing like the cool original male design.

What’s “offensive” to me, incidentally, is not that sexualized outfits exist or that people use them or how popular they are. It’s the difference in treatment of the genders and the excuses made for it. I’d like people to try to understand how the neverending barrage of female sexualization and the glaring lack of diversity and choice can affect women and society’s opinion and treatment of women — and I’d especially like to make that request from those guys who feel uncomfortable or flat-out revolted by rare cases of actual make sexualization (not muscled power fantasies).

kimeekat.2548:

phys.7689:

the problem with your theory is you want to apply the same type of ascetic to men and women, when it currently for most people is not the same.

… what. Skimpy is skimpy, whether it’s on a guy or girl. There’s no difference in aesthetic there. I mean, yeah I find guys in suits hot and girls in ballgowns hot too, but we are talking about skimpiness here. Gimme some kitten chaps or some low slung pants on a guy, some crotch pouches or barely there shirts. Show off those arms and muscled legs. I’d love to know what survey said people attracted to men don’t find men’s bodies sexy.

phys.7689:

Skimpy, you can define as how much flesh is covered, but what you are talking about has no definition, you just want to put men in the same thing as women to prove a point, but its not really proving anything but that men and women dress differently irrelevant to sexiness.

What they are talking about is equality in skimpiness, shorthanded in the thread down to “sexiness” sometimes. Yes, we do want to put men in the same thing as women (and vice versa! Phalanx armor, for example. Put the male phalanx armor on women). “It’s not really proving anything but that men and women dress differently irrelevant to sexiness” This is ridiculous. We’re not talking about how men and women dress themselves, we’re talking about how armor designers dress men and women video game characters. I don’t know many women who dress themselves in just panties and a bra to go to the office or grab starbucks (the beach or a pool is obviously different), or many soldiers who slap on a bikini and a gun, and yet here we are. For people who like to throw out the “it’s a fantasy, of course they’d wear underwear to battle” arguments, it’s funny how that line of thought just doesn’t apply to the male characters.

phys.7689:

look at this gw1 armor
http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080827201205/gw_/images/1/17/Monk_Star_Armor_M_gray_front.jpg

almost all naked, and yet i dont think it even really comes across as sexy.
The reality is, its all in your head, my head, etc. What you dont really like is that people are dressing charachters in ways you find offensive, but thats impossible to police. They have a great number (more than they have skimpy) of armors that are fully clothed. People just like the skimpy ones on average. Blame the people, not the designers.

You’re right. They’re half naked and covered in tattoos but it’s not necessarily sexy or objectifying. You know what aids that line of thought? Showing the female version alongside it. They are both mostly nude but for thick cloth underwear – not just underwear but underwear with modesty loincloths over the form-fitting element. They are both equally skimpy and the armor looks like the same exact set. There is beautiful detail and intricate care taken in the tattoo portion of that armor (I love that and Labyrinthine armor from GW1, favorite sets of mine). That is a wonderful example of male and female skimpiness equality

What we don’t like is an armor set that is supposedly the same looking radically different on males and females, usually in favor of more skin on the females. I do blame the designers for that, not the players. I have skimpy armor on some of my ladies. I don’t understand why I can’t do the same for my men or why people are telling me no one finds it attractive when there are people here flat out telling you that they do.

The thing is anet wants to make designs that sell well, and they dont want to make designs that dont. based on their current metrics and expectations, they believe certain things will sell better for male charachters and certain for female charachters. They dont want to do what they see as a waste, and make a phalanx armor that looks the same as male, if people wont buy it. So they create a different looking armor, and give it the same name.

essentially your biggest opponent right now, is probably not the players, but the bottom line(money aka what sells) Second opponent is the dispositions of the actual designers, even if they tried to make something you like, it may not hit home. I dont think most peoples fashion senses will ever be satisfied until some game formalizes player generated gears. Of course, if that did happen there would be a lot of bad points, as well the good points.

Kat and kimeekat: Thanks for the images. Yes, that is what the male equivalent of sexualized female outfits could/should like.

Chadramar.8156:

Jahroots.6791:

‘Sexy’ simply does not work the same way for both genders. Yes – as a society we are far more comfortable with feminine expressions of sexuality – but you cannot force males to be equally sexualised. Our bodies are different and perceived differently.

The key word here is “perceived”. There is a huge cultural element of men-are-THIS, woman-are-THAT forced on us, and the “THIS” is usually considered superior, so anything that treats men more like women is basically blasphemy. If men are sexualized, that’s “gay” or “emasculating”, because being made to be sexy is for women, so men simply are not, cannot be, must not be sexy.

If we “allowed” men to be sexualized, if we “forced” men to be sexualized like woman are all the time, you bet people would come up with a great number of ways to make it so. Some of these ways would be impractical, uncomfortable or flat-out health hazards … as it is for women. Some men might be horrified, others might find it empowering or liberating … just as women react differently, too.

Would you also propose that female characters’ nipples should be displayed?Y’know…for equality, of course.

It’d actually be awesome if the female chest was treated more like the male: no big deal, unless context and intent deliberately make it so. So if there is actual equality overall in terms of which outfit is designed to be sexualized and which is not, then yes. It’s not like some of the existing “armors” leave much to the imagination as it is. This puerile “Tee-hee, look look look BOOOOOOOOBS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But it’s fine cuz no nipples so you can’t say it’s porn!” attitude that is so widespread in female character design in various forms of entertainment annoys me to no end — showing the whole thing could actually end up feeling less objectifying, as well as more honest.

Look at that impressive image from GW1 that phys linked (thanks, by the way). I agree that it’s not sexy even though the guy shows a whole lot of skin. There’s no emphasis or attention on his “assets”, instead he’s a stunning whole-body work of human art. If a female character was presented in exactly the same way, bare chest and all, it’d be far less sexualized than many female outfits in GW2 that put a nudge-nudge-wink-wink fig leaf over the breasts.

I can appreciate why you want to instigate change in society’s perception and attitude towards this issue. However for the time being, accept that it will take time for this to occur (if it ever does).

If nobody speaks up, or if they do but are silenced, it won’t change, either.

phys.7689:

They have a great number (more than they have skimpy) of armors that are fully clothed.

My problem isn’t just the ones that are show a lot of skin. Just barely hiding something or mostly covering it but drawing attention to it via frills or fishnets or boob windows or whatever also plays a part in objectification/sexualization. Plus, there’s the frequently huge difference in theme and design, especially with light armor. Men get the default, the original theme. Women get something that screams “LOOK A FEMALE!” which may end up looking very different or even nothing like the cool original male design.

What’s “offensive” to me, incidentally, is not that sexualized outfits exist or that people use them or how popular they are. It’s the difference in treatment of the genders and the excuses made for it. I’d like people to try to understand how the neverending barrage of female sexualization and the glaring lack of diversity and choice can affect women and society’s opinion and treatment of women — and I’d especially like to make that request from those guys who feel uncomfortable or flat-out revolted by rare cases of actual make sexualization (not muscled power fantasies).

Keep the toxicity to Tumblr, will you?

Zalyn.9534:

phys.7689:

notice i said what is a womens style by western cultures definition. There is no actual style that truely belongs to men or to women. However, culturally there are, but this is not objective, there is no universal sexy and universal male/female.

Actually, there are a lot of people who do try to argue that female bodies are universally more sexy / aesthetic than male ones across cultures.

Why are we sticking to Western culture? Surely there are many cultural / historical influences for costumes in the game? But okay, I’ll bite, here’s are some really perverse men in “feminine” lace, tights, high heels, and wigs in Western culture:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Louis_XIV_of_France.jpg
http://historyofeuropeanfashion.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/baroqueman3.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Portrait_of_Charles_IX.jpg

ETA:

I just wanted to say I wish I could +1 your posts here more than once.

Seconded. Thank you for the great image resources! A friend of mine is a fashion designer, so they’ll love the inspiration.

As far as who is sexier? male or female? im biased and i know it, so my pov probably would not be relevant.

mostly im talking about western culture because that is the context of the forum, and most of the GW2 world. Like i said, i think your main point is you want more gear that blasts norms and tests the boundaries of fashion. like i said, “feminine” is defined by culture, its not objective, the pictures you show are essentially pointing out the same thing, western culture has changed over the years and will change again. And even when that happens, there will still probably be things that are defined as masculine, and feminine. Much like in that time period form fitting leggings, and pink were thought to be very masculine.(and wealthy)

phys.7689:

The thing is anet wants to make designs that sell well, and they dont want to make designs that dont. based on their current metrics and expectations, they believe certain things will sell better for male charachters and certain for female charachters. They dont want to do what they see as a waste, and make a phalanx armor that looks the same as male, if people wont buy it. So they create a different looking armor, and give it the same name.

essentially your biggest opponent right now, is probably not the players, but the bottom line(money aka what sells) Second opponent is the dispositions of the actual designers, even if they tried to make something you like, it may not hit home. I dont think most peoples fashion senses will ever be satisfied until some game formalizes player generated gears. Of course, if that did happen there would be a lot of bad points, as well the good points.

Proof, please? When GW2 was in development, ANet made a big deal about how they wanted to give options for everyone and even showcased how there would be covered and skimpy options for male and female avatars. So if you’re going to make claims about ANet’s intentions and financial priorities, would you please give an article?

Part of the problem is that if options are never offered, then there is no way to determine whether people would like them or now. So for the sake of free market values, shouldn’t we have options put out there so that the players can decide and show their support for what they like? It’s likely that new options for revenue will come out of it, so it makes business sense.