Guild Wars 2

From the thread about cancelling the Legendaries (Mike O’Brien):

I wrote in the Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto in 2010…

Can someone remind me of some of the important points in the Manifesto so we can see what an excellent job they’ve been doing following their core principles?

It’s a 6 year old document detailing their hopes and ambitions. It’s not a business contract between us and them.

When you quote someone you need to put in the link or the full quote. Not snip out a little bit of it and ask about that tiny part, as the rest of the quote can change the understanding or meaning of what you clipped out.

So, the full quote.

Mike O Brien.4613:

Hi all,

In the upcoming Spring 2016 Quarterly Update, we’ll launch the new legendary short bow, Chuka and Champawat. The team outdid themselves on this one. This new precursor journey takes you through a memorable experience inspired by a real-world story, and the bow you craft at the end is the perfect commemoration of that journey. I hope you all check it out.

Last year we talked about plans to gradually build out a second set of legendary weapons through live content updates. That’s a big responsibility. We have a team of six developers working on that, who could work on it for years to come.

As game director I have to make tough trade-offs. One thing I believe is that we have to focus on the core game first before taking on additional responsibilities. I wrote in the Guild Wars 2 Design Manifesto in 2010 that our vision was to create a living, dynamic world, where there’s always something to do. Let’s ensure we succeed on that front.

So, after shipping Chuka and Champawat, I’ve asked that we indefinitely suspend work on new legendary weapons. This team of developers will instead shift their efforts back to Living World style content, building new journeys and events for everyone to participate in.

I know this will be a controversial decision. I’ll hang out with you here on the forums for a little while today to discuss it. And I’m always available by email.

Mo

(Highlighted part is mine)

Here he said that the vision was to create a living, dynamic world, where there’s always something to do. Let’s ensure we succeed on that front, and that’s the part that he wants the game to succeed in.

I don’t think crafting Legendaries was part of the manifesto, if that’s what you’re trying for in your post.

Wow. That’s a /thread if I’ve ever seen one.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

When you quote someone you need to put in the link or the full quote.

Nope. No need for the full quote. If he’s going to use the manifesto to justify his actions, then let’s see how consistent they’ve been following their manifesto. Or is he just cherry picking the parts he needs to invoke right this moment?

Lord Kuru.3685:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

When you quote someone you need to put in the link or the full quote.

Nope. No need for the full quote. If he’s going to use the manifesto to justify his actions, then let’s see how consistent they’ve been following their manifesto. Or is he just cherry picking the parts he needs to invoke right this moment?

Like I said. It’s a 6 year old document detailing their hopes and dreams. Not a business contract between us. If they had to change it because it didn’t completely work out due to technical or business considerations, then it didn’t work out.

After 6 years it’s time to let it rest and stop beating the proverbial dead horse on the parts of it that didn’t work out and they weren’t able to keep.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

When you quote someone you need to put in the link or the full quote.

Nope. No need for the full quote. If he’s going to use the manifesto to justify his actions, then let’s see how consistent they’ve been following their manifesto. Or is he just cherry picking the parts he needs to invoke right this moment?

First, yes, the context of a quote is always important; pulling part of a line often leads to misunderstandings (whether deliberate or not).

Second, because the quote was incomplete and the context was lost, you might have missed that he wasn’t using the Manifesto to justify his actions — he was explaining that the goal has always been to focus on creating an evolving world and that currently, ANet lost some of that focus, getting distracted by things peripheral to that goal.

Thirdly, and I admit that this is later in the thread so you might have missed it, he says…

…that doesn’t matter because …My job is to entertain you, ….

And ultimately, wouldn’t you agree that that’s the most important thing? Regardless of whether we see 4 or 40 legendaries, more fractals or the same old swamp, if we’re not entertained… who really cares what ANet said or didn’t say? And similarly, what does it matter what they say if we are entertained?

I think we can all agree that the long content drought leading up to the announcement and delivery of the expac meant Tyria was a lot less entertaining to all of us and that the expac failed to entertain a large group people as much they expected. And I think we agree that ANet failed to properly manage expectations.

In the end, the point of the Manifesto is that ANet was sharing some particular ideas about what makes entertaining content (and what dulls it). In the end, the point is entertainment, not sticking to this particular idea or that, especially if it is going to make things less fun.

So quote the Manifesto if you like. Just remember that it’s a road map for how to reach a particular goal; it’s not the actual goal.

The Manifesto has been dead for years.

- BUT -

Every move towards the ideas and inspirations of what they had in mind back then is a move in the right direction.

The further they moved away from their own vision, the more generic the game has become. Sometimes a step back is two steps forward.

I just want to comment to the OP, if you’re mad about the Legendaries then make your argument about that. Bring up and discuss ethics, legality, promises made and broken, consequences. But don’t bring up a document that has nothing to do with what you’re really angry about. That dilutes and weakens what you have to say and brings it down to the level of a forum thread that’s made for the purpose of being negative, not a thread that constructively argues for what you want and what the game should be doing.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

After 6 years it’s time to let it rest and stop beating the proverbial dead horse on the parts of it that didn’t work out and they weren’t able to keep.

Maybe MO shouldn’t have bought it up then.

MashMash.1645:

Just a flesh wound.3589:

After 6 years it’s time to let it rest and stop beating the proverbial dead horse on the parts of it that didn’t work out and they weren’t able to keep.

Maybe MO shouldn’t have bought it up then.

He brought it up as this is something they wanted to to. Some could argue that there is always something to do. But it’s not always entertaining. I got HoT at the last possible moment before launch. One to get the best deal on price, secondly so I knew roughly what I.was paying for. Yes I was not happy with HoT, that’s why my total play time.on HoT maps is probably 40-50 hours total. Now that’s not long at all. I really don’t like that to do anything “rewarding” on a HoT map, it’s about a 2 hour commitment. My only hope is that whatever comes next is not as time intensive as HoT.

I’ve never been a fan of people whipping out the manifesto in arguments long after launch, but for those who do put stock by it, doesn’t the legendary hiatus read as a course correction, to get back to less grindy, always-changing ideals of the manifesto?

The hiatus stinks because it’s a broken promise, but it sounds to me like it’s being done for the right reasons, too, if it’s going to happen. Precursor crafting is a huge grind, when you factor in the expenses involved, and while I still think it’s a great feature to have in the game, it’s not exactly aligned with the manifesto. There are trade-offs on both sides.

Redenaz.8631:

I’ve never been a fan of people whipping out the manifesto in arguments long after launch, but for those who do put stock by it, doesn’t the legendary hiatus read as a course correction, to get back to less grindy, always-changing ideals of the manifesto?

The hiatus stinks because it’s a broken promise, but it sounds to me like it’s being done for the right reasons, too, if it’s going to happen. Precursor crafting is a huge grind, when you factor in the expenses involved, and while I still think it’s a great feature to have in the game, it’s not exactly aligned with the manifesto. There are trade-offs on both sides.

Its not a broken promises, we have some. Not as many as some would like, but we have new legendarys.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Its not a broken promises, we have some. Not as many as some would like, but we have new legendarys.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/hot-new-legendary-weapons/

It takes a lot of work to craft these legendary journeys for release, so rather than take the time to develop the full set before releasing any of them, we will be releasing new legendary weapons in small groups at regular intervals until the full set of sixteen has been added to the game.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m willing to believe that, in the grand scheme of things, this is the right decision, even if it’s a problematic one. But it’s very hard to argue that it’s not a broken promise and a loss of credibility. A price of consumer confidence is being paid now, hopefully in return for greater consumer satisfaction down the line.

I’m going to continue to enjoy the game, and I look forward to future releases, but let’s call it what it is.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Redenaz.8631:

I’ve never been a fan of people whipping out the manifesto in arguments long after launch, but for those who do put stock by it, doesn’t the legendary hiatus read as a course correction, to get back to less grindy, always-changing ideals of the manifesto?

The hiatus stinks because it’s a broken promise, but it sounds to me like it’s being done for the right reasons, too, if it’s going to happen. Precursor crafting is a huge grind, when you factor in the expenses involved, and while I still think it’s a great feature to have in the game, it’s not exactly aligned with the manifesto. There are trade-offs on both sides.

Its not a broken promises, we have some. Not as many as some would like, but we have new legendarys.

It’s a broken promise. Sure we have four new legendaries – but we were promised sixteen.

Sartharina.3542:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Redenaz.8631:

I’ve never been a fan of people whipping out the manifesto in arguments long after launch, but for those who do put stock by it, doesn’t the legendary hiatus read as a course correction, to get back to less grindy, always-changing ideals of the manifesto?

The hiatus stinks because it’s a broken promise, but it sounds to me like it’s being done for the right reasons, too, if it’s going to happen. Precursor crafting is a huge grind, when you factor in the expenses involved, and while I still think it’s a great feature to have in the game, it’s not exactly aligned with the manifesto. There are trade-offs on both sides.

Its not a broken promises, we have some. Not as many as some would like, but we have new legendarys.

It’s a broken promise. Sure we have four new legendaries – but we were promised sixteen.

Show me where they said “we promise you will get 16 new legendary weapons.” The said we would get them in intervals, they said they would be regular. They didn’t not promise. We will have 4. 4 is better than none.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Sartharina.3542:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Redenaz.8631:

I’ve never been a fan of people whipping out the manifesto in arguments long after launch, but for those who do put stock by it, doesn’t the legendary hiatus read as a course correction, to get back to less grindy, always-changing ideals of the manifesto?

The hiatus stinks because it’s a broken promise, but it sounds to me like it’s being done for the right reasons, too, if it’s going to happen. Precursor crafting is a huge grind, when you factor in the expenses involved, and while I still think it’s a great feature to have in the game, it’s not exactly aligned with the manifesto. There are trade-offs on both sides.

Its not a broken promises, we have some. Not as many as some would like, but we have new legendarys.

It’s a broken promise. Sure we have four new legendaries – but we were promised sixteen.

Show me where they said “we promise you will get 16 new legendary weapons.” The said we would get them in intervals, they said they would be regular. They didn’t not promise. We will have 4. 4 is better than none.

They said we will get sixteen, in regular intervals. We have three, and are about to get a fourth. We are no longer getting them in intervals. We are no longer getting them regularly. We are no longer getting them at all.

We’ve already cited where they said we’re getting 16 new legendaries (HoT promotional material)

Here it is, since no one wants to link it: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

Redenaz.8631:

But it’s very hard to argue that it’s not a broken promise and a loss of credibility.

“in small groups at regular intervals … until the full set … has been added”

As long as the full set is eventually added, there’s really no problem. They could release 2 weapons every few years and that’d still be true.

Sindex.9520:

Here it is, since no one wants to link it: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/guild-wars-2-design-manifesto/

And the main choices:
“Great RPG – Choices Matter” – In Personal story, we have our branch-then-combine paths. Nice for replayability, but nothing special. However… with LS2 and HoT, the large meta-events have your choices have an impact for the duration of that event, though it probably could be better. Dynamic events largely succeed in making the world more alive, though there are more than a few hiccups

“More Social” – The LS2 and HoT maps and world bosses reward working and coordinating with other players, without competing with them or struggling with setting up means to coordinate. And, with Dynamic Events, we don’t have as much “I need help with X quest you’ve already done!”, outside of things like Achievements and the Personal/Living Story content. But there’s generally a reward for helping out anyway, if not a truly significant one (It bothers me that helping people with Personal Story doesn’t reward Bags of Loot)

“Rethinking Combat”
I think they kinda fell flat here, at least compared to what they’d done in GW1. Still – it’s a hell of a lot better than something like WoW and its ilk, due to the importance of positioning and nice responsiveness of actions. But then they nerfed the visual effects of skills.

Healix.5819:

Redenaz.8631:

But it’s very hard to argue that it’s not a broken promise and a loss of credibility.

“in small groups at regular intervals … until the full set … has been added”

As long as the full set is eventually added, there’s really no problem. They could release 2 weapons every few years and that’d still be true.

In order for intervals to be regular they need to be (relatively) equal. The first interval was approximately one month after launch. This would require that the others be relased in monthly intervals for the statement about regularity to be accurate. If one does not count the first release of new legendaries, and the new shortbow comes out in April, then then the schedule would need to be eery six months for the sratement to be accurate.

Healix.5819:

Redenaz.8631:

But it’s very hard to argue that it’s not a broken promise and a loss of credibility.

“in small groups at regular intervals … until the full set … has been added”

As long as the full set is eventually added, there’s really no problem. They could release 2 weapons every few years and that’d still be true.

I feel like that’s refusing to take Mike’s statement at face value, and since he’s trying to let people down as plainly and honestly about the situation as he can, I think that’s doing him a disservice.

Never say never, but the core message here is “this is not a thing we’re working on anymore, and we’re sorry. Here’s why, and we hope you understand…”

It’s not "Hey guys! This is a lot of work, and we’re super busy, so it’s taking a while longer than we expected! Hang in there, and we’ll have them ‘When It’s Ready!’ "

Ashen.2907:

In order for intervals to be regular they need to be (relatively) equal.

Don’t worry. It’ll average out.