Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

darkace.8925:

The shop shouldn’t stop selling ice cream because some of its patrons are lactose intolerant. The shop owner should simply tell those complaining about ice cream, “if you can’t handle ice cream, order one of the many other items off our extensive menu.”

It’s not the same thing. In order for that to work, there has to be enough choices and selection for the other patrons. But since many are complaining there’s not enough content, making more challenging content for the minority would be a waste of time. Would you rather risk losing 5% of your audience our 25%? It’s a very simple business decision.

If I were in business, I’d rather kitten off a smaller percentage than a larger one.

I’d say there’s plenty of things in this game for the not-so-skilled among us to do. In fact, the vast majority of the things to do in this game require minimal skill. So a few challenges with the bar set very high is hardly going to leave the less-skilled players without anything to do.

As to those complaining about having nothing to do, that’s not going to change. There will ALWAYS be people who complain about having nothing to do. There will never be a shortage of players who blast through new content as quick as humanly possible before complaining about a lack of anything to do. Developing content targeting skilled players, or not, isn’t going to change that.

Vayne.8563:

See this is what bothers me. People talk about challenge. There’s not enough challenge in the game. We want more challenge. But then the challenge in the game gets back to rewards, not challenge. We want more rewards. We want the challenges to be worth doing. So what you’re really talking about is being rewarded better, because you’re a good player.

For some people, the satisfaction of overcoming a real challenge is reward enough. Sure, most people want to show the world how great they are with an exclusive weapon skin or mini or title, but I imagine plenty of people would have tackled Liadri the Concealing Dark or the Mad King’s Clock Tower even if they got nothing for the trouble.

And even if the comparatively few players skilled enough to take Liadri down were rewarded handsomely, that should hardly something that turns a player off of this game. Imagine if access to the Queen’s Pavilion was only granted to those who defeated Liadri rather than being granted by a pass purchased from the Gem Shop. I can’t imagine too many players would have left the game because of that. If the overwhelming majority of the content in the game is designed so that anyone with even a marginal grasp of how to play well can complete it, then I have a hard time believing reasonable people would begrudge a tiny fraction of the content reserved for the best of the best.

I do sympathize with those wanting to see and do everything being denied the ability to do so because they aren’t good enough. I can also understand the developers not wanting to sink resources into content only a relatively few elite players will ever see. But I also recognize there are players who want to be engaged on a level deeper than sleepwalking through content designed so that even the worst player can win. It doesn’t have to be an either/or situation. Content can be developed for the unskilled masses and the elite players both. Liadri and the Clock Tower jumping puzzle prove as much.

BlueZone.4236:

I would just like to say on record the percentages Vayne mentioned were pulled out of thin air, therefore meaningless. I hope this clarifies any mislead readers.

Thank you for your time.

They weren’t hard and fast percentage it’s called an example. There was nothing in that post that should have made anyone think they were supossed to represent actual numbers. Most people reading this would have understood that. Thanks for clarifying it further for those who didn’t get it.

I would add:

• horrible reward systems:
  new skins in the gem store → farm gold
  stats gear → farm materials/gold
  and the latest fossil skins… They are only appealing for a small part of the community and for some time only.

The only working reward system is in Fractals… Developed two years ago.

I also noticed something about not having expansions this weekend.
It’s always sunny on Launch Day (with a chance for bugs) -> no expansion -> it’s always Launch Day -> nice

I think this shouldn’t be underestimated, combined with mega servers the world feels very populated/alive

I would have plenty to tell on the bad and ugly parts (and I did so in the past, too), but at this point I honestly doubt I could find anything good to list.

You’re trying too hard.

Hehe, I’d ask you to list ‘the good’, but I don’t want to have you waste your precious time listing something that will simply be dismissed due to not meeting minimal quality requirements. Sorry.

KarlaGrey.5903:

Hehe, I’d ask you to list ‘the good’, but I don’t want to have you waste your precious time listing something that will simply be dismissed due to not meeting minimal quality requirements. Sorry.

You’d be surprised at how long my list of bad is.

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

I would just like to say on record the percentages Vayne mentioned were pulled out of thin air, therefore meaningless. I hope this clarifies any mislead readers.

Thank you for your time.

They weren’t hard and fast percentage it’s called an example. There was nothing in that post that should have made anyone think they were supossed to represent actual numbers. Most people reading this would have understood that. Thanks for clarifying it further for those who didn’t get it.

Yep, just to reiterate, the numbers are meaningless so the example is also meaningless…meaning it means absolutely nothing.
Using a meaningless example to support an argument is meaningless.

BlueZone.4236:

Vayne.8563:

BlueZone.4236:

I would just like to say on record the percentages Vayne mentioned were pulled out of thin air, therefore meaningless. I hope this clarifies any mislead readers.

Thank you for your time.

They weren’t hard and fast percentage it’s called an example. There was nothing in that post that should have made anyone think they were supossed to represent actual numbers. Most people reading this would have understood that. Thanks for clarifying it further for those who didn’t get it.

Yep, just to reiterate, the numbers are meaningless so the example is also meaningless…meaning it means absolutely nothing.
Using a meaningless example to support an argument is meaningless.

Okay so let me rephrase so that even people who want to argue for the sake of arguing can understand it too. It’s well known, not little known, well known, the most people don’t end up doing the hardest content in any MMO. Recently the devs of Lotro said only a tiny percent of people ever finish their raids. It’s pretty well known that there are more casual players of MMOs that originally thought. Feel free to find something to contest these concepts.

The amount of hard core players doing the hardest PvE is a minority in most games. There are surely more casual players playing these games. Therefore, the exact percentage, whatever it is, still indicated a clear majority of casual players who don’t finish hard end game content.

That being the case, Anet is smarter to cater first and foremost to the majority.

Now if you have any actual evidence against this, I’m sure we’d all love to hear it.

No fake numbers this time, so it’s all good.

HiddenNick.7206:

The only working reward system is in Fractals… Developed two years ago.

Fractal reward system…. working? >.>

Vayne.8563:

Except that you can farm gold to pay for everything in the gem store, and people do.

Vayne, please stop. When every post you make consists of blind devotion to GW2, people eventually stop taking you seriously.

Personally I know it’s not the case, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the majority of the regulars here thought you were a plant.

And besides all this, I have in the past proven that past a certain point, thanks to the ever escalating inflation inherent to the Guild Wars 2 “Economy”, at some point farming for gold will no longer be an attractive option.
Since I last posted about this, the amount of gold you can buy with 100 gems has almost doubled. And seeing as how that observation is only 6 months old, this is worrying.
In January, 100 gems would buy you ~4G80S. Today those 100 gems will buy you ~9G30S.

If you believe that players can influence the economy and that it’s on your side, you’re sorely mistaken.
It’s clearly designed to make buying gems with cash more attractive over time.

Put it this way:
200 gems will buy you a piece of tier 3 armour. As the gems-to-gold value has doubled in 6 months, I think we can safely say that in another year’s time, those same 200 gems will probably buy you almost, if not a complete set of tier 3.
I think when faced with the prospect of grinding out 120G for a full set versus spending $2.50, most players won’t have the willpower to avoid doing the latter.
And this will only become more attractive as the gem to gold rate increases over time.

This is just one example.

You may very well be on ArenaNet’s side, but they couldn’t give a fig about you.

About 50% of OPs points are somewhat or mostly valid, but that’s my opinion (and we all know what those are like…). The other 50% are almost a total opposite of what I feel (again, all other ones stink….)

Actually… not really.

5% of the player base playing the hardest available content in an MMO is not “pulled out of thin air.” That’s a pretty average number, actually (when I was a WoW raider during Burning Crusade, the numbers for Sunwell Plateau even lower than that).

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/2688-Other-Press-Tour-Interviews-A-Night-in-Mists-of-Pandaria-Blue-Posts-MoP-Screenshot

To quote the relevant bit: “Before Wrath of the Lich King came out, less than one percent of the playerbase actually experienced Sunwell.”

That’s actually lower than I remember (I recalled statements around 2%).

So no, his numbers AREN’T pulled out of thin air. If anything, he was being GENEROUS with his numbers.

He pulled that number out of thin air. You, on the other hand, have a source.

EDIT: having thought about it. I have no idea what that number really means, since this game has a lower grind requirement.
However, 1-2% of 10 million players is a lot compared to GW2’s under 4 million players (where the majority are probably gone, anyway)

Karuna.1357:

THE GOOD

• Jumping Puzzles — the JP’s are well-designed, fun, and interesting: they did a good job adding in this new MMO element.

Its not GW2 original. Warhammer Online already exploted the platform capability in today’s MMOs and included some jumping puzzles in secret locations to find rare bosses and achievements some years before GW2 launch. That being said, it’s still a good thing to copy the good things of others if you do it right. I think they did.

I’ll add:
GOOD:
- The level design.- Maps are fun to explore, distances are not terrible in any case and WPs are smartly placed (with some exceptions like WvW)
- No quests to deliver. Hearts lets you play and resolve in the same area which is nice.
- Personal Story; fun for some, bad written for others, the implementation was good regardless of the content. ANet seems to be taking feedback from players and improving their script quality for personal quests.

BAD:
- Many design flaws already discussed (class variety, mob AI, weird/odd stats selection provided to players for the game mechanics proposed).
- Content always the same, no random content inside dungeons makes it extremely boring/grinding and reduce re playability to ground level.
- RNG. Simply unacceptable for a game of this category. Too lazy. No game of a major studio should include RNG nowadays…

UGLY:
- Flashy skins and wings. Looks like a cheap version of a game. Reminds me of MU Online and other free to play korean games. Its like Homer designing a car. It is always easier to make a flat model and add some sparky fx on it than to create a skin with different fabrics, textures and make it look real. Flashy: cheap, Real: requires some work. That is why some low lvl armors (karma armors and weapons) are still better looking than most newly added skins. I understand this is subjective but you can notice the difference in the work put into the old ones vs the new ones (and you will NEVER see a GW2 NPC wearing any flashy armor, they know they are ugly).
- WvW; I can’t compare this to other games with the same feature. Its just bad, amateur massive pvp. No body blocking, no raid interface to organize groups, no roles its just a zerg of pawns against another there is little to no strategy involved just a matter of who has more people spamming AOE. Ridiculously long runs for very short fights.

For WvW: rebalance the wvw achievement ( I want the yakslapper title), give more incentive to play wvw (not rewards, but incentives), and start taking actions against hackers, abusers, and even siege trolls
For PvE: Just add more dungeons, buff fractal rewards, and add more challenging bosses like Lupi

In general, just fix RNG. I love the combat, I love living story, I avoid pvp so idk whats wrong in that section other than skyhammer, and add more skins that consumes our karma/dungeon tokens/other currencies other than Gems.

sazberryftw.3809:

HiddenNick.7206:

The only working reward system is in Fractals… Developed two years ago.

Fractal reward system…. working? >.>

What’s not working in it?

You need rewards you are getting. You can’t run higher levels of fractals without rings and infusions and you can’t get all rewards on lower levels. And this is why so many people still play fractals even tho there is not so much gold there. There is also that thrill of getting Fractal Weapon each time you finish the run. And still! It does not lock you out of content! It’s brilliant.

Good: World. It is just very beautiful.

Bad: PvP, of all mmo’s I have played, Gw2 PvP is just dreadful experience.

Ugly: Prom queen faerie pixie sparkling happy joy joy cloth armors, wings and ridiculous “radioactive” armor colours.

Karuna.1357:

THE GOOD

• Combat — say what you will, but the combat in this game is actually pretty good. It isn’t as balanced as GW1, but dodging/evades plus the variety of conditions and skills give you something more to do rather than just sit there and mash buttons.

Some of us would not mind being able to sit and mash buttons, if we built for it.

but as it stands, building glass or building tank makes no difference in how often we need to dodge. The only is that we need to keep dodging for longer as fights last longer thanks to lower DPS. As such, it is more likely that we fail a critical dodge and wipe.

Sergio Leone would turn over in his grave (accompanied by music of Ennio morricone)

Then again what would the world be like if they never invented the zombie genre.
(Can’t get more cryptic)

BlueZone.4236:

He pulled that number out of thin air. You, on the other hand, have a source.

EDIT: having thought about it. I have no idea what that number really means, since this game has a lower grind requirement.
However, 1-2% of 10 million players is a lot compared to GW2’s under 4 million players (where the majority are probably gone, anyway)

Well, here’s something I CAN tell you, based on what I personally witnessed.

By the time that instance was given a pretty sizable nerf (a few weeks before launch of Wrath of the Lich King), there was only about 100 guilds that confirmed a “kill” of Kil’jaeden (the final boss in Sunwell Plateau). Let’s be generous and assume that they ran a good share of “second team” runs, say 75 players from each guild were present for at least one completion of that raid instance (it was a 25-man raid, after all).

Even at the most generous numbers I’m willing to entertain, you’re talking about 7,000-8,000 people TOTAL completed that content at the degree of difficulty it was intended.

Those numbers were so dismal that Blizzard vowed to NEVER make content that difficult ever again. The return on that investment simply wasn’t worth it to the company. It wouldn’t be worth it for a game with a player base a tenth WoW’s size.

In fact, within two expansions, they created a “Looking for Raid” faceroll difficulty, which was basically get 25 people to press “1” over and over. Does that sound familiar to you?

That’s the problem with challenging content. The percentage of the player base that welcomes that content is so very small when compared to the whole that it just isn’t worth the time and money investment. If you want more than that very small slice to enjoy what you’ve made… you’re gonna have to make it depressingly easy, because otherwise the overwhelming bulk of your players WILL reject it, if not be outright ANGRY at its existence.

Karuna.1357:

• Megaserver — so something had to be done, I guess, about declining server populations, but this update was seemingly rushed out the door with 0 consideration given to how it would impact the community. News update: it had a profoundly negative impact.

I like it quite a lot, and besides trying to get 150 people of your guild in 1 map, I don’t really see ANY problems with it, RP maybe.
But surely nothing of a “profoundly negative”.

I could list PLENTY of good things that happened with this, but I’ll leave 1 and let you go to the plentiful topics about this matter.

CoF was in a sorry state, talking about the event to open the door.
When the LFG tool was introduced all you’d see was “px need opener” parties would form and disband after 1 minute if no one could open the door and people resorted to guesting on a server that happened to have it open.
Not that there wasn’t enough people by the door, those people would simply rather walk around in circles because apparently they were too 1337 for the event.
How many times I solo the escort event and failed on the bridge because I couldn’t cover the 2 sides? Too many. And when someone did show to help by the time any champion appeared you’d have ~10 running down hill to kill it and then leave immediately back up to their original positions, scaling up the event…

So with the megaserver, instead of having 1~2 souls per server trying to get it done, we have all those in one or two, and we can actually do it.

Mungrul.9358:

Vayne.8563:

Except that you can farm gold to pay for everything in the gem store, and people do.

Vayne, please stop. When every post you make consists of blind devotion to GW2, people eventually stop taking you seriously.

Personally I know it’s not the case, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the majority of the regulars here thought you were a plant.

And besides all this, I have in the past proven that past a certain point, thanks to the ever escalating inflation inherent to the Guild Wars 2 “Economy”, at some point farming for gold will no longer be an attractive option.
Since I last posted about this, the amount of gold you can buy with 100 gems has almost doubled. And seeing as how that observation is only 6 months old, this is worrying.
In January, 100 gems would buy you ~4G80S. Today those 100 gems will buy you ~9G30S.

If you believe that players can influence the economy and that it’s on your side, you’re sorely mistaken.
It’s clearly designed to make buying gems with cash more attractive over time.

Put it this way:
200 gems will buy you a piece of tier 3 armour. As the gems-to-gold value has doubled in 6 months, I think we can safely say that in another year’s time, those same 200 gems will probably buy you almost, if not a complete set of tier 3.
I think when faced with the prospect of grinding out 120G for a full set versus spending $2.50, most players won’t have the willpower to avoid doing the latter.
And this will only become more attractive as the gem to gold rate increases over time.

This is just one example.

You may very well be on ArenaNet’s side, but they couldn’t give a fig about you.

Stop trying to discredit what I say by pointing out the stuff I say that supports Anet, while ignoring the stuff I say that doesn’t. It doesn’t make your arguments stronger.

Even on the first page, there are points I’ve made where Anet has done things wrong and overcompensated. Things I don’t agree with. Therefore, not agreeing with you doesn’t make me mindless or a fan boy.

And you don’t really deserve any kind of answer for trying to imply what you’re implying.

chemiclord.3978:

BlueZone.4236:

He pulled that number out of thin air. You, on the other hand, have a source.

EDIT: having thought about it. I have no idea what that number really means, since this game has a lower grind requirement.
However, 1-2% of 10 million players is a lot compared to GW2’s under 4 million players (where the majority are probably gone, anyway)

Well, here’s something I CAN tell you, based on what I personally witnessed.

By the time that instance was given a pretty sizable nerf (a few weeks before launch of Wrath of the Lich King), there was only about 100 guilds that confirmed a “kill” of Kil’jaeden (the final boss in Sunwell Plateau). Let’s be generous and assume that they ran a good share of “second team” runs, say 75 players from each guild were present for at least one completion of that raid instance (it was a 25-man raid, after all).

Even at the most generous numbers I’m willing to entertain, you’re talking about 7,000-8,000 people TOTAL completed that content at the degree of difficulty it was intended.

Those numbers were so dismal that Blizzard vowed to NEVER make content that difficult ever again. The return on that investment simply wasn’t worth it to the company. It wouldn’t be worth it for a game with a player base a tenth WoW’s size.

In fact, within two expansions, they created a “Looking for Raid” faceroll difficulty, which was basically get 25 people to press “1” over and over. Does that sound familiar to you?

That’s the problem with challenging content. The percentage of the player base that welcomes that content is so very small when compared to the whole that it just isn’t worth the time and money investment. If you want more than that very small slice to enjoy what you’ve made… you’re gonna have to make it depressingly easy, because otherwise the overwhelming bulk of your players WILL reject it, if not be outright ANGRY at its existence.

Hey, thanks for posting. I think there’s a difference in making (or trying to make) challenging content and “content so hard we doubled it and didn’t test it”.

Anyway, I can’t find the quote but there was an Anet post somewhere here that said the overall skill level of everyone is below expectation, and they wanted to raise it.
Based on the number of challenging content they tried to add, I wonder if they’ve already been scared off then.

Agreed that GW2 has some of the better combat from MMO’s but tbh it pales against Neverwinters combat and DCUO’s imho.

Vayne.8563:

And you don’t really deserve any kind of answer for trying to imply what you’re implying.

I wasn’t looking for an answer, I was saying things how I see them.
Further input from you was not required.

Mungrul.9358:

Vayne.8563:

And you don’t really deserve any kind of answer for trying to imply what you’re implying.

I wasn’t looking for an answer, I was saying things how I see them.
Further input from you was not required.

Sure it was, if you’re going to try to dismiss anything I say by painting me as a person who supports everything Anet does which is demonstrably untrue. Painting a false picture of another person always deserves a response. In the future, stay on the topic instead of trying to make comments about the person posting.

Vayne.8563:

In the future, stay on the topic instead of trying to make comments about the person posting.

Then I suggest you stop with ill-conceived drive-by one-liners when trying to discredit someone who has demonstrably proved their point.
I took your laughable gold-farming comment and countered it, quite effectively. Your only remit then was to imply that I was attacking you. To me, it looks like you’re the troll here.

Mungrul.9358:

Vayne.8563:

In the future, stay on the topic instead of trying to make comments about the person posting.

Then I suggest you stop with ill-conceived drive-by one-liners when trying to discredit someone who has demonstrably proved their point.
I took your laughable gold-farming comment and countered it, quite effectively. Your only remit then was to imply that I was attacking you. To me, it looks like you’re the troll here.

Look, people buy stuff with gems ALL THE TIME. They spend gold on gems. Just because you don’t or can’t doesn’t make you right. However, because you decided to start off your post by singling me out with a personal attack, I don’t feel you deserve any serious consideration. Next time, keep it to the topic and you’ll get an answer. If you insist on trying to discredit people based on your own perception of them…shrugs.

It’s your issue not mine.

BlueZone.4236:

Hey, thanks for posting. I think there’s a difference in making (or trying to make) challenging content and “content so hard we doubled it and didn’t test it”.

Anyway, I can’t find the quote but there was an Anet post somewhere here that said the overall skill level of everyone is below expectation, and they wanted to raise it.
Based on the number of challenging content they tried to add, I wonder if they’ve already been scared off then.

Well, first of all, I’m not sure why they would have expected the overall skill level of the player base to be higher than it is. The bulk of the players learn the absolute basics, and have never particularly given one tenth of one kitten to learn beyond that.

For most players of MMOs, by my experience over the years, by the time they reach the halfway point in the leveling process, their play pattern is set. That’s how they will play the rest of the time they put into the game, and they won’t really improve all that much. If they reach a point where their established skill level isn’t enough, they will either:

1) Complain very loudly the content is “too hard” and demand nerfs.

or

2) Quit; either by returning to a level they are comfortable with or the game entirely.

That’s just how the bulk of the MMO playerbase works, as a general rule. They aren’t interested in improving, because that would be “work”, and if they wanted to “work” they wouldn’t be playing a game for “fun.”

And while Sunwell Plateau was by far the most underutilized content I personally have witnessed, it’s not like the easier raid content in that expansion was all that much more well received. Black Temple (which was where I first heard the 5% number used, and sorry that I don’t have a link handy to point to offhand), by my recollection of World of Raids only had about 1000 guilds and change complete it at the time. Even if I wanted to be absurdly generous, I wouldn’t say more than 100,000 players completed it at it’s intended difficulty (before launch of Wrath of the Lich King). For a game that had around 6 million subscribers at that point… that’s a pretty dismal percentage.

It doesn’t take very much for the general player of an MMO to decide “kitten this.”

chemiclord.3978:

Well, first of all, I’m not sure why they would have expected the overall skill level of the player base to be higher than it is. The bulk of the players learn the absolute basics, and have never particularly given one tenth of one kitten to learn beyond that.

For most players of MMOs, by my experience over the years, by the time they reach the halfway point in the leveling process, their play pattern is set. That’s how they will play the rest of the time they put into the game, and they won’t really improve all that much. If they reach a point where their established skill level isn’t enough, they will either:

1) Complain very loudly the content is “too hard” and demand nerfs.

or

2) Quit; either by returning to a level they are comfortable with or the game entirely.

That’s just how the bulk of the MMO playerbase works, as a general rule. They aren’t interested in improving, because that would be “work”, and if they wanted to “work” they wouldn’t be playing a game for “fun.”

Unfortunately, I do believe you’re spot on with this analysis.

darkace.8925:

Unfortunately, I do believe you’re spot on with this analysis.

Now, I tend to follow my observations up with the question, “Is this a problem?” And the perfectly useless answer I come up with is “yes… and no.”

It’s not really a problem with those players. “I just wanna have fun” is a perfectly reasonable expectation. While they can get combative and dare I say whiny when things go beyond their level of skill, I dare say most of that “I play how I want group” simply looks at challenging content, shrugs, decides, “not for me” and goes on with their day.

The big problem is on a purely business sense. The cost of development when it comes to video games is skyrocketing (along with ever increasing profit margins that publishers are demanding). If you’re creating content, you want to be able to “sell” that content (in either the literal or figurative sense, or even both). Content that your players doesn’t want to play doesn’t get you money OR word of mouth.

The people who are finding themselves increasingly pushed out of the design targets are that small fragment of “hardcore” gamers, though they are HARDLY the only demographic that is losing the love. Roleplayers are another really small niche that game developers simply can’t cater to because they’re just too small of a group to be worth the investment… there are too many players among the masses that find roleplaying “stupid” and challenging content “dumb.”

Everything has to be streamlined for maximum profits and maximum exposure, and I don’t know if there’s an easy answer to fix that. Games that try to reach those niche audiences can’t afford big budgets, and as a result produce some very… I don’t want to say substandard or low quality or unpolished… but they just don’t look as amazing (graphically, musically, etc). Like going from HD to standard resolution. It’s not a judgment of quality, but the limitations these companies face.

“Games by gamers for gamers” really only have the indie scene, because they aren’t a large enough group to be worth it for the AAA publishers and developers to pursue doggedly.