Guild Wars 2

#Skill=Rewards

Trending on twitter, Players who want more for their skill and less RNG.

Dumb luck should not be the barrier between endgame.

Queens gauntlet is a step in the right direction but who wants more?

Make your suggestions known! Post a relatively fair and balanced, but challenging method to obtaining real rewards that you can’t just be carried through In the suggestions section. Then trend #Skill=Rewards with a link to your post @Guildwars2 on Twitter or FB

(Please nothing unreasonable like, I beat a boss So I get a legendary!)

The original design intentions was a Skill based action MMO, lets help make the community stronger, and more skilled! Lets then reward the players for their skill and a complishments through REAL tests!! Help A-net find our ideas so we can grow, and break some of this RNG.

Help make this game even better!

#Skill=Rewards

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Daily-exotic-drops-Challenging-content-idea/first#post2666997

Yes A-net can find what they need from their own forms but this separates and organizes it apart from the rest of the mass daily posts

@Ew Twitter or @Ew Facebook @Ew other social media center

Haters gonna hate~ (personally I’m actually not a fan of FB)

Skill is its own reward.

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Skill is its own reward.

Touché but wouldn’t it be nice to have a real challanging set of content? And why not get rewarded for it?

Bring back UW and FoW. Make them challenging. Tie in decent rewards.

A man can dream…

arjeidi.2690:

Daishi.6027:

GrandmaFunk.3052:

Skill is its own reward.

Touché but wouldn’t it be nice to have a real challanging set of content? And why not get rewarded for it?

Wouldn’t it be nice if you bothered to find a challenging game instead of crying about this one and how its beneath you? Why do you keep playing something you obviously think is not worth your time?

Because its the type of game that grows with the community that will only get better over time? Comments like those only hold it back.

I’m not the only one seeking an actual challenge in a MMO genre type game, this was again advertised as a “Skill based” Action MMO and right now there’s not to much content that lives up to that.

Also I love how you take my positivity and interprete it as crying. Take your toxicity elsewhere troll.

You say “grow” but what you really mean is “change to cater to me and my tastes”. Your attitude is completely exclusionary as shown in your previous whine thread about how “less skilled players deserve RNG but I don’t”.

You’re not interested in making the game better or more inviting or anything of the sort, you’re interested in making it more about what you want even if it comes at the expense of other people’s fun.

Get over yourself Daishi, you’re not that significant (protip: none of us really are). If you really want to play skill-demanding games, I suggest a different genre. I’ve suggested shooters or fighting games before and I’ll suggest them again. If Guild Wars 2 does not demand full use of your skills, you should look for a game that does.

I actually think Anet has done really well on “challenging content”
There’s open PvE for the casual – By casual I mean people like my girlfriend who just enjoys exploring the world, maybe taking down a veteran, a Champion when she feels brave.
Then there’s the betweeners – Dungeons, WvW, PvP, maybe even some Guild missions and some achievement hunting
The hardcores/skilled people have the wonders of Fractals (Remember it was difficult until you figured out all the mechanics, continues to be difficult around level 30-40.), PvP, WvW (if you like zergs), Gauntlet for now and a few goodies now and then (Killing Mai Trin, even worse, killing without getting hit by AoE’s).

That said I would of course love more of the hardcore stuff. Anything is good tbh. We just got Gauntlet. I’m ok if Anet decides to do a few new zones or something before handing challenging content again. As long as they do add it.

arjeidi.2690:

You say “grow” but what you really mean is “change to cater to me and my tastes”. Your attitude is completely exclusionary as shown in your previous whine thread about how “less skilled players deserve RNG but I don’t”.

You’re not interested in making the game better or more inviting or anything of the sort, you’re interested in making it more about what you want even if it comes at the expense of other people’s fun.

Get over yourself Daishi, you’re not that significant (protip: none of us really are). If you really want to play skill-demanding games, I suggest a different genre. I’ve suggested shooters or fighting games before and I’ll suggest them again. If Guild Wars 2 does not demand full use of your skills, you should look for a game that does.

No I mean grow! The old options are still in place they never went anywhere. And clearly if you read around the forums watch podcasts ect. I’m not alone and others have great ideas too! I don’t see how added content hurts other people’s fun?

People Did ask for good 1v1 content and we got queens gauntlet out of it, and that didn’t cause any problems I don’t see why your so kitten about it. People asked for Harder jumping puzzles with more of a reward and got The Aetherbalde themed one. With an exotic at the end. Was that breaking the RNG? I’m suggesting something less easy to farm but can be done daily. Also sure it only suited the minority that enjoy jumping puzzles but should they just go play Mario and A-net stop giving that kind of content?

There is no need for a diffrent genre when this is already in a good spot and what I propose falls in line with the original design intentions. PLUS A-net is always asking for feed back. Also If we’re gonna talk competitive shooters and fighting games A-net is shooting for E-sports status, so think I’m right at home if they ever get it down right. Btw it will take the community’s help to get it there.

The are people who couldnt beat Liadri missed out on a mini, is it bad to reward players for beating some relatively challanging content? no! Or atleast A-net didn’t think so. So what gives you the right to say? People “suggest” what they think is good all the time. How is this any diffrent? Your just being a nay sayer for no real reason, your not even pointing out how any of it is actually bad your mostly just saying. “Stop suggesting things I don’t like” I think the one who needs to get over them self is you, who can’t tolerate content that doesn’t suit only your particular interests and ignore that the game targets a wide demographic with multiple options and paths to reach there goals. I’m doing nothing more than suggesting another.

I am not sure your initial post is all that positive, OP, but I have no objections to adding all different kinds of content to the game. The more, the better. Just not one kind, at the expense of other kinds. =)

Treeline.3865:

The hardcores/skilled people have the wonders of Fractals (Remember it was difficult until you figured out all the mechanics, continues to be difficult around level 30-40.),

Except that some (most) of the dungeon guilds have stopped running fractals all together because the rewards are terrible, and they’re far from ‘difficult’, they’re just tedious. Dredge isn’t difficult, it’s just time consuming.

The only thing that comes close to difficult in this game is melee’ing lupicus.

Most of the dungeon runners spend their time doing normal dungeons because Fractals are boring and unrewarding. Adding a million hp to a boss doesn’t make it harder, it just makes it take longer.

Daishi.6027:

Trending on twitter, Players who want more for their skill and less RNG.

Dumb luck should not be the barrier between endgame.

Pretty sure every other MMORPG out there has similar things. You do a dungeon and the bosses have a miniscule percentage of dropping the best gear. Or maybe the bosses drop tokens that you need an abysmal amount to trade in for a piece of gear.

The reason the “RNG” is disliked in GW2 has nothing to do with RNG itself, which is in every single kitten RPG ever. It’s that it’s not tied to anything.

Queens gauntlet is a step in the right direction but who wants more?

No it wasn’t. You were massively rewarded for using Gambits, but you got the same reward whether you used them on Liadri or Deadeye Dunwell. And we all know which one people were busy doing.

Hell, you got ridiculous rewards even if you did some of the lower tier bosses. Tyre Ragemaw was cake and you ended up with like 32 silver after the fight.

The original design intentions was a Skill based action MMO, lets help make the community stronger, and more skilled! Lets then reward the players for their skill and a complishments through REAL tests!! Help A-net find our ideas so we can grow, and break some of this RNG.

Combat is a massive part of an MMORPG. Some would argue that it’s right up there with the RPG world itself in terms of importance. And the combat in GW2 requires a lot more skill than most other MMORPGs.

Olba.5376:

And the combat in GW2 requires a lot more skill than most other MMORPGs.

The combat does, the encounters don’t.

I honestly wouldn’t mind if doing some high-end content would actually give good reward.
Instead of doing something trivial like CoF P1, Deadeye or zerg-farms.

Open Fractals level 50+, just double the bosses with reduced health and give good rewards.

Olba.5376:

Daishi.6027:

Trending on twitter, Players who want more for their skill and less RNG.

Dumb luck should not be the barrier between endgame.

Pretty sure every other MMORPG out there has similar things. You do a dungeon and the bosses have a miniscule percentage of dropping the best gear. Or maybe the bosses drop tokens that you need an abysmal amount to trade in for a piece of gear.

The reason the “RNG” is disliked in GW2 has nothing to do with RNG itself, which is in every single kitten RPG ever. It’s that it’s not tied to anything.

Queens gauntlet is a step in the right direction but who wants more?

No it wasn’t. You were massively rewarded for using Gambits, but you got the same reward whether you used them on Liadri or Deadeye Dunwell. And we all know which one people were busy doing.

Hell, you got ridiculous rewards even if you did some of the lower tier bosses. Tyre Ragemaw was cake and you ended up with like 32 silver after the fight.

The original design intentions was a Skill based action MMO, lets help make the community stronger, and more skilled! Lets then reward the players for their skill and a complishments through REAL tests!! Help A-net find our ideas so we can grow, and break some of this RNG.

Combat is a massive part of an MMORPG. Some would argue that it’s right up there with the RPG world itself in terms of importance. And the combat in GW2 requires a lot more skill than most other MMORPGs.

1. true, true, however other MMOs also had you doing fetch quests all day, and even before that we had nothing but farming mobs. So the idea of a new formula isn’t horrible especially if you still need to work for it. Doing something 100 times and failing is still more engaging than doing something 100 times succeeding while sleep walking your way through.

2. What I meant was it was a step in the right direction for content, not necicerly the reward nor the execution, but that’s why I said a “step”

3. Your right! It does take more skill than certain other games, but that’s why I’m proposing people get excited and into the idea of content to match it! And those not skilled enough will eventually ask for help and people will end up coatching! People learn and play and not just suffer with the mindless farming for a roll of be dice.

@ Inculpatus cedo

Ofc no one said anything about at the expense of others, atleast no more than SAB for example, if you hated jumping puzzles SAB would be wasted on that individual

Saying that this game requires more skill that others is a lie. GW1 required more skill in some aspects (try using a mesmer with 1/4 sec casting time to interrupt a healer with 1/2 sec casting time) and even the infamous WoW had its moments… not even 1% of the player base (in the millions) got to wear T3 armor in the original game before Burning Crusade. Warhammer Online RvR needed a lot of commander skill and players in the guild discipline to act as one army (remember some epic fights 12 against 120 and end up killing more than 60 of them). Every game has its mechanics that demands skill, now whether the design team knows how to exploit them or not its a different thing.

I agree with the OP and I think we need more skill dependent content but I disagree that Gauntlet was a right step. Most fights are suited for a zerk solo player. That is hardly exploiting this game potential. GW2 has LOTS of mechanics to just be a smash buttons and dodge. Combos, Reflects, Conditions and Boons (like stability or vigor not might stacking and fury), Platform scenarios, etc… game has LOTS of potential wasted on lazy designers and players.

Mesket.5728:

Saying that this game requires more skill that others is a lie. GW1 required more skill in some aspects (try using a mesmer with 1/4 sec casting time to interrupt a healer with 1/2 sec casting time) and even the infamous WoW had its moments… not even 1% of the player base (in the millions) got to wear T3 armor in the original game before Burning Crusade. Warhammer Online RvR needed a lot of commander skill and players in the guild discipline to act as one army (remember some epic fights 12 against 120 and end up killing more than 60 of them). Every game has its mechanics that demands skill, now whether the design team knows how to exploit them or not its a different thing.

I agree with the OP and I think we need more skill dependent content but I disagree that Gauntlet was a right step. Most fights are suited for a zerk solo player. That is hardly exploiting this game potential. GW2 has LOTS of mechanics to just be a smash buttons and dodge. Combos, Reflects, Conditions and Boons (like stability or vigor not might stacking and fury), Platform scenarios, etc… game has LOTS of potential wasted on lazy designers and players.

Well I WAS trying to be liberal about it… Lol

We just had Liadri…the hardest fight in the game yet.

Let’s take a break from challenging….go solo some dungeon paths or something if you want a challenge.

Thankfully the next update is SAB so don’t get your hopes up for more challenges.

I guess the point was to get reward for doing something challenging, not the other way around.
You can easily find challenge pretty much in any game, that’s not the issue.

Well Fractals 50 isnt what i would call “skill” either. 5 zerk warrirs or guardians just worrying about themselves when to press the V key…. go play Witcher 2 on hard mode if that is what you call skill. I signed up here for a team game, team difficult content, not a single player with other 4 dudes doing the same.

If doubling the bosses sounds too easy for you then let’s triple them.

Wethospu.6437:

If doubling the bosses sounds too easy for you then let’s triple them.

Yay smart. You should work for Blizzard. At least you share their logic.

Well I think it is my fault, maybe I expected too much of this game and gave them too much credit. I was expecting clever encounters and instead we got one shot red circles.

I think the OP has a valid point. I also think that there are far more people not interested in hard content than are interested in hard content, but I don’t see why we can’t have both.

The problem is, Anet isn’t likely to make more content for the smaller percentage of players…and lest you think people who like hard content are the majority, we know from past interviews with devs that that’s not really the case.

As an example, Ghost Crawler, the head dev for WoW, has said publicly that only 5% of the playerbase ever beat the hardest content in the game. That’s not a huge percentage.

There’s a reason why games are getting easier and easier. Obviously if everyone loved hard content, games would be getting harder…but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

But I think that there should be hard stuff in the game for people who like hard stuff…as long as it doesn’t reward them with power. That I’m dead set against.

I mean if you’re really really good, you don’t need more power. It’s the guys who are really bad who need more power. lol

Mesket.5728:

Wethospu.6437:

If doubling the bosses sounds too easy for you then let’s triple them.

Yay smart. You should work for Blizzard. At least you share their logic.

Well I think it is my fault, maybe I expected too much of this game and gave them too much credit. I was expecting clever encounters and instead we got one shot red circles.

Actually it is. Facing multiple enemies would require more coordination and positional awareness. It would also mean more pressure so less need for one shot circles. While also being fast and easy to implement.
Try to be realistic, don’t demand miracles.

Vayne.8563:

I think the OP has a valid point. I also think that there are far more people not interested in hard content than are interested in hard content, but I don’t see why we can’t have both.

The problem is, Anet isn’t likely to make more content for the smaller percentage of players…and lest you think people who like hard content are the majority, we know from past interviews with devs that that’s not really the case.

As an example, Ghost Crawler, the head dev for WoW, has said publicly that only 5% of the playerbase ever beat the hardest content in the game. That’s not a huge percentage.

There’s a reason why games are getting easier and easier. Obviously if everyone loved hard content, games would be getting harder…but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

But I think that there should be hard stuff in the game for people who like hard stuff…as long as it doesn’t reward them with power. That I’m dead set against.

I mean if you’re really really good, you don’t need more power. It’s the guys who are really bad who need more power. lol

I am completely against significant gear treadmills, check the link in my original post and tell me if you think that’d be to broken.

Wethospu.6437:

Mesket.5728:

Wethospu.6437:

If doubling the bosses sounds too easy for you then let’s triple them.

Yay smart. You should work for Blizzard. At least you share their logic.

Well I think it is my fault, maybe I expected too much of this game and gave them too much credit. I was expecting clever encounters and instead we got one shot red circles.

Actually it is. Facing multiple enemies would require more coordination and positional awareness. It would also mean more pressure so less need for one shot circles. While also being fast and easy to implement.
Try to be realistic, don’t demand miracles.

That is something I can agree, but I’m so tired of “add more of the same” solution. Its like if they are using red circles as silver tape;… you know what to do when silver tape don’t fix an issue right? well…

I don’t know if you played GW1 or not, but the mobs there had some amazing IA. Most of them had the same skills as players but higher lvl and used the same strats as players: Heal wounded, rez deads, assist and spike a single target, it was an amazing job and added a lot of difficult to some encounters. It was actually fun.

How many encounters in this game actually demands to call a target before another?

Mesket.5728:

Wethospu.6437:

Mesket.5728:

Wethospu.6437:

If doubling the bosses sounds too easy for you then let’s triple them.

Yay smart. You should work for Blizzard. At least you share their logic.

Well I think it is my fault, maybe I expected too much of this game and gave them too much credit. I was expecting clever encounters and instead we got one shot red circles.

Actually it is. Facing multiple enemies would require more coordination and positional awareness. It would also mean more pressure so less need for one shot circles. While also being fast and easy to implement.
Try to be realistic, don’t demand miracles.

That is something I can agree, but I’m so tired of “add more of the same” solution. Its like if they are using red circles as silver tape;… you know what to do when silver tape don’t fix an issue right? well…

I don’t know if you played GW1 or not, but the mobs there had some amazing IA. Most of them had the same skills as players but higher lvl and used the same strats as players: Heal wounded, rez deads, assist and spike a single target, it was an amazing job and added a lot of difficult to some encounters. It was actually fun.

How many encounters in this game actually demands to call a target before another?

PvP =D… And CM with people who just bought the game.

But in all seriousness I never played GW1 but sounds like I’m missing out, I would LOVE that kind of thing with this combat system.

^ I can answer that: NONE! :/

Their should be challenging stuff that is the most rewarding, there can still be easy casual farm that can be like 80% as good. But risk needs to be rewarded.

Boring stuff being rewarding is ok, because you’re being rewarded (which is satisfying), but now imagine if the game had really challenging and fun stuff that was also the most rewarding, it would be a godsend.

Just bring back UW, FoW (and maybe DoA, but I’m know that hope is in vain) and don’t screw it up. Add challenge (interesting challenges, not bloated health pools) and rewards and I’ll even stop trolling the forums…

Yeah okay, that part about stopping to troll the forums is a lie, but I’d sure as hell complain a lot less..

Knote.2904:

Their should be challenging stuff that is the most rewarding, there can still be easy casual farm that can be like 80% as good. But risk needs to be rewarded.

Ah, but rewarded how? Better gear? New skills? That would make the best players even better, and widen the gap between what they want and what most other players can handle.

Larger amounts of the normal rewards? That just means that the best players will run out of things to strive for all the sooner.

Unique skins and cosmetics? Some of those casual players are VERY into how their characters look, and finding out that they can’t get the items they need to complete their character’s look can drive them away. Given that these are the same people that spend money in the gemstore for cosmetics, ANet doesn’t want to do that.

About the only thing I can think of that would be a good reward is a title that pretty much says “I beat this”. In CoH, I saw quite a few people take on difficult tasks to earn the "Master of … " titles. Would that be enough reward for the people playing here?

Daishi.6027:

Vayne.8563:

I think the OP has a valid point. I also think that there are far more people not interested in hard content than are interested in hard content, but I don’t see why we can’t have both.

The problem is, Anet isn’t likely to make more content for the smaller percentage of players…and lest you think people who like hard content are the majority, we know from past interviews with devs that that’s not really the case.

As an example, Ghost Crawler, the head dev for WoW, has said publicly that only 5% of the playerbase ever beat the hardest content in the game. That’s not a huge percentage.

There’s a reason why games are getting easier and easier. Obviously if everyone loved hard content, games would be getting harder…but that doesn’t seem to be the case.

But I think that there should be hard stuff in the game for people who like hard stuff…as long as it doesn’t reward them with power. That I’m dead set against.

I mean if you’re really really good, you don’t need more power. It’s the guys who are really bad who need more power. lol

I am completely against significant gear treadmills, check the link in my original post and tell me if you think that’d be to broken.

I agree with Vayne’s post and was heartened by the OP response. My fear (and I infer similar fear on the part of others based on the comments I see) is that as you add more and more “challenging content” with rewards that help improve game play then it leads to even more challenging content with even better rewards…and on it goes. As a less skilled player, I am completely okay that more skilled players will get some better rewards than me. In fact, I am very happy about it because it gives me heart that these skilled players will hang around longer and make the game richer for all of us.

The key is balance. How do you reward that skill on challenging content without starting that endless tiered reward structure that vastly widens the gap between the more skilled and the less skilled players. The gap is already there simply by virtue of the skill gap. Rewarding that skill in ways that lets these highly skilled players play even more challenging content just exacerbates it. This, of course, assumes that the rewards envisioned improve game play. If the rewards are focused in other ways, such as appearance, titles, achievements, etc. then it is a very different issue. Since I care relatively little about appearance, skins, legendary weapons, I am not the best person to comment on that. My concern is simply the rewards system as it affects game play.

Mesket.5728:

Well Fractals 50 isnt what i would call “skill” either. 5 zerk warrirs or guardians just worrying about themselves when to press the V key…. go play Witcher 2 on hard mode if that is what you call skill. I signed up here for a team game, team difficult content, not a single player with other 4 dudes doing the same.

wow… this message… look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYrtfwlZdeE

this is fractal scale 80.. we hit it last year… but not due to individuall skill but because we had a good Group coordination. You don’t have enough endurance to dodge every single time! It is absolutly no solo Player Content but good Group Content with nice tactics I wanna see you doing fractals scale 80 with 5 zerk wars I think you wouln’d even get one fractal done!

Palador.2170:

Knote.2904:

Their should be challenging stuff that is the most rewarding, there can still be easy casual farm that can be like 80% as good. But risk needs to be rewarded.

Ah, but rewarded how? Better gear? New skills? That would make the best players even better, and widen the gap between what they want and what most other players can handle.

Larger amounts of the normal rewards? That just means that the best players will run out of things to strive for all the sooner.

Unique skins and cosmetics? Some of those casual players are VERY into how their characters look, and finding out that they can’t get the items they need to complete their character’s look can drive them away. Given that these are the same people that spend money in the gemstore for cosmetics, ANet doesn’t want to do that.

About the only thing I can think of that would be a good reward is a title that pretty much says “I beat this”. In CoH, I saw quite a few people take on difficult tasks to earn the "Master of … " titles. Would that be enough reward for the people playing here?

TRADEABLE WEAPON SKINS. If only 5% of the population was able to do the content it would make them pricey and in a game where money is KING (horizontal progression, which is gw2) it would be the ultimate incentive. Maybe throw in some AR requirements so people have to do fractals as a stepping stone/make them try part of your game they wouldnt normally do.

What I don’t really understand is that my image of a “Casual” or someone whose bad / just doesn’t care about the game, isn’t someone who would even know what a forum is, let alone take the time to post on one.

Yet there are tons of posts on here calling people who want challenging content “entitled” or use any manner of trickery to turn them into some kind of demon. Its almost as if there are “Hardcore” Casuals, people that take pride in being sub-par at the game, and want things handed to them w/o any effort.

Its a pretty scary thought.

Bright.9160:

Just bring back UW, FoW (and maybe DoA, but I’m know that hope is in vain) and don’t screw it up. Add challenge (interesting challenges, not bloated health pools) and rewards and I’ll even stop trolling the forums…

Yeah okay, that part about stopping to troll the forums is a lie, but I’d sure as hell complain a lot less..

UW and FoW were challenging?

Play Quake Live, Call of Duty, WoW, or Battlefield 3 if you want to have fun while using your skills. Isn’t it a little sad that I can watch t.v, eat pizza, and play GW2 at the same time while running a dungeon and barely paying attention? Pong requires more of my attention than this game does.

I don’t want more rewards. I want less. I want less different forms of currency and leave us only with a handful that can be used to acquire most anything we want. Have this reward be given for everything we do(DE, hearts, jumping puzzles, wvw keep capture, crafting, etc. This enables us to play and do literally whatever we want because anything we do, we are receiving the same reward.

This removes the “urge” to rush to complete this before they are no longer available
This removes the herding to certain spots or content to farm X items
This enables me to play however I want to play.

maddoctor.2738:

Bright.9160:

Just bring back UW, FoW (and maybe DoA, but I’m know that hope is in vain) and don’t screw it up. Add challenge (interesting challenges, not bloated health pools) and rewards and I’ll even stop trolling the forums…

Yeah okay, that part about stopping to troll the forums is a lie, but I’d sure as hell complain a lot less..

UW and FoW were challenging?

Before powercreep they were… FoW was never that challenging, but at least it was an interesting area.

It took a while before the first people could even beat UW at the start of the game, and it took a LOT of team coordination and time to do it. There were possible fails all over the place, and a failure in UW meant /gglolkick.

And even then, The Deep, Urgoz, UW, FoW and DoA in 2010/2011 were more interesting than any of the dungeons Iin this game. Even if a Deep/Urgoz run would take like 8 minutes and FoW was <10 and DoA was <35 etc.

Current dungeons are a DPS race, whereas the elite dungeons in GW1 at least required some coordinated team play with pulls, aggro, balling up, spiking, skipping etc. I’m not asking for the old tank ’n spank to come back, but at least those areas were fun and interesting. Oh, and more rewarding than spamming your autoattack in a brainless zerg.

Perhaps I’ll get slammed for this, but unless PvE fights are designed to be more unpredictable as is playing against another player, I don’t see skill ever being tested. Most content, even the “more difficult” content like Liadri (and previously Lupicus) doesn’t actually require skill, just practice/memorization of which skills will be used, when they’ll be used, and what button to press to avoid it.

Granted, some people tend to learn how to faceroll these kinds of fights faster than others, so maybe there is some aspect of skill there, but it’s tough to separate, in my opinion, the effects of familiarity and experience with particular fights from “skill.”

Zepidel.5349:

What I don’t really understand is that my image of a “Casual” or someone whose bad / just doesn’t care about the game, isn’t someone who would even know what a forum is, let alone take the time to post on one.

Yet there are tons of posts on here calling people who want challenging content “entitled” or use any manner of trickery to turn them into some kind of demon. Its almost as if there are “Hardcore” Casuals, people that take pride in being sub-par at the game, and want things handed to them w/o any effort.

Its a pretty scary thought.

First…not sure how you came to your definition of “casual” but is seems a bit harsh to me. Perhaps I am a “hardcore casual” as you so delicately put it. I play a lot and I enjoy the game. I try to improve my play and work on my characters to improve them. I am not nor do I make any claim to a high level of skill. That is not, however, the same as “taking pride in being subpar.” I don’t go around with a sign on my armour stating how crappy I am and how happy I am about that. Not at all. I have a good time…I do what I can do…and I am realistic about my skills (owning my own business has taught me the art of self-evaluation).

I have not seen this huge trend of anyone implying that more skilled players feel “entitled.” I fully expect that they, like me, want content that is appropriate for their skill level and they want to be rewarded for that. I do not have a problem with that per se. What would discourage me is if the game became an endless cycle of increasing challenge aimed only at the more skilled player.

From a very practical perspective, that means that in order for this game to continue to appeal to a wide audience, there are always going to be a few players for whom the game is ridiculously easy…and a few players at the other extreme for whom what we have is far too challenging. For the bulk of us under the curve, though, there would be a range of challenge all the way from easy to hard and we would make our choices based on our preferences.

Finally…this debate is certainly not unique to GW2. It could almost have been cut and pasted from forums for a number of MMOs. From my seven years in WoW, I can say that they have struggled with it the entire time and continue to struggle with it. Other games…pretty much the same. There are probably games that cater only to the highly skilled players (I have indeed avoided some MMOs simply because they seemed too challenging for my tastes)…and there may be those that cater to the totally incompetent (haven’t seen any of those yet). The most successful, though, seem to try and build in something for a wide range of skill level. The trick seems to be to be able cater to different groupings of players in a way that is more inclusive than exclusive. For me personally (not speaking for anyone else), GW2 has done that. There is plenty for me to do while, at the same time, there is content that is clearly too challenging for me.

Improving the Giganticus’s animations and the projectile’s visual cues would also be a good example of bridging the divide between seeming randomness, and approachable coachable skill.

Anet’s Animators in this case forgot the very rules of animation: There’s always that wobble, that hesitation at the start of a wind-up or forceful action. Maybe it’s even called anticipation? … In any case, this isn’t DragonBallZ, they don’t just flash around the screen and likewise they don’t have to spend 2 minutes charging up an attack either (Unless it’s the Howling King who literally Shoop da Whoops at you). Just somewhere in between… infact anywhere in between would be better than where it is now …Especially the double homing bolts that most people don’t even know that much about

I think the issue is actually not difficulty level, it’s lack of engaging and compelling reasons to do a particular encounter. All of the rewards in this game are of two types, either repeat ad nauseum(various currencies) or rng. While these kinds of rewards do keep people playing they don’t promote a real sense of accomplishment beyond time spent or luck. I know people make the argument that being “skilled” is it’s own reward
but even olympians get trophies for their effort if they succeed.

The rpg portion of mmorpg is lacking here, and by that I mean character development or progression. Before anyone jumps and says we don’t want gear treadmill, that is not the type of progression I am referring to. By level 30 in this game you more or less have the majority of the skills unlocked that you will ever use, sure traits do enhance some of these skills in some way or another but it never quite gives the sense of getting something new or really making the character that much better than before you had said trait (with a few exceptions of course). All in all it achieves little to actually connect you to the avatar you are playing when the only choice is in terms of “effectiveness”.

How wonderful would it be to have something that validates the effort you put in? Why not design content that is more engaging and compelling like unique skins that are specific to a class that requires a heroic set of adventures to obtain rather than just simply repeating x activity y amount of times? These items do not need to offer an advantage over someone else in any way just change the how and why these items are gotten.

I think back to my days with another mmorpg, where even reaching level cap required that you fought a doppelganger of yourself of sorts to progress and I can’t help but feel like those types of situations are missing here. So it is clear I am not speaking specifically about recreating that scenario, but I simply mean moments that connect you to the avatar you are playing. In conclusion, I feel like this game has tons of untapped potential and could benefit from a few more imaginative and compelling ways to give a sense of accomplishment, reward, and character progression.

Always funny. People wanting more challenging in a game that mostly targets casuals. Understandable, because challenging content here might be close to regular content in other MMO’s. And this loud crowd can show their kitten here where they’d drown in mediocrity in more difficult games.

Shadowpuppet, I agree.
Legendaries should have been that way, instead of a precursor. I think they got the hint, and they are going to give us a scavenger hunt. But again, I fear that will be more of “collect xyz, kill abc”. I want a long quest line, a long personal story that is tailored for the legendary that I am going after. And the last boss will be one that won’t be easily dispatched. Difficulty like Liadri, maybe a bit harder.

Right now, to get anything in the game all you need are a combination of the following:
-Lots of time
-Lots of gold
-Lots of luck
-Lots of Real Life Cash.

Pains me to say, that getting the best looking gear in WoW took some coordination as a guild and skill. Here, we just need to farm forever.

cesmode.4257:

Shadowpuppet, I agree.
Legendaries should have been that way, instead of a precursor. I think they got the hint, and they are going to give us a scavenger hunt. But again, I fear that will be more of “collect xyz, kill abc”. I want a long quest line, a long personal story that is tailored for the legendary that I am going after. And the last boss will be one that won’t be easily dispatched. Difficulty like Liadri, maybe a bit harder.

Right now, to get anything in the game all you need are a combination of the following:
-Lots of time
-Lots of gold
-Lots of luck
-Lots of Real Life Cash.

Pains me to say, that getting the best looking gear in WoW took some coordination as a guild and skill. Here, we just need to farm forever.

Heck it doesn’t even have to be just legendaries, I mean we have order specific armor and different tiers of cultural armor and they make them vendor items -_-. Why not make items like those be actually associated with adventuring rather than just how well you can farm for karma/gold. I realize that development resources are a finite thing, between time and money they often simply can’t include the sweeping unique content required to make obtaining certain things not feel like just another farming exercise. I would rather see them devote their resources into more design activities with this kind of goal as opposed to the new “content” every 2 weeks that are just rehashes of the easy route.

I guess it’s a “wrong if you do, wrong if you don’t” kind of things. On one side you have people asking for harder skill based content…. yet when some content like that is added to the game (Queen’s Gauntlet, including an exclusive mini for those that manage to do it) then suddenly you have the forums explosing about how it is unfar that not everyone can get the pet, and how it divides the players and so on.

I am all for skill based achievements and rewards IF I don’t have a hard time limit before it is lost forever. Then it’s basically a project at work, except without the luxury of having dedicated work hours to do it or actual monetary compensation for my time. That is why so many people complain about the difficulty: Time constraints making it more stressful than necessary.

I wish we got all Dark Souls/Vindictus up in this joint. Then we could talk about skill, at least my definition of it in the sense of combat.

The fine mechanisms of Vindictus combat never ceased to amaze me. I don’t like being restricted to arbitrary 2 dodgerolls in Guild Wars when the others’ combat relies on precise management of stamina for blocking, dodging, sprinting and whatnot, making combat more fluid and dynamic.

Money is the problem with skill based rewards in MMOs. Gamers are entitled. Many people simply cannot accept that there is some sort of reward locked behind content they cannot complete. They will complain of bugs, bad mechanics, cheap designs… but rarely will they admit they simply are not good enough to do it. This creates an unhappy, unstable player base.

And thus, we get content pushed out and designed for the masses. Everyone can do everything, so the game can have maximum retention and make that $$$. It’s not unlike little league soccer back when we were 10. Everyone plays, and everyone gets a trophy at the end of the season. Can’t hurt anyone’s feelings.

locoman.1974:

I guess it’s a “wrong if you do, wrong if you don’t” kind of things. On one side you have people asking for harder skill based content…. yet when some content like that is added to the game (Queen’s Gauntlet, including an exclusive mini for those that manage to do it) then suddenly you have the forums explosing about how it is unfar that not everyone can get the pet, and how it divides the players and so on.

This is true unfortunately, I am of the opinion that there is absolutely nothing wrong with giving players with a higher “skill” level rewards that are not accessible to all players. It seems at some point people have forgotten that having such things gives incentive to try harder, a goal to aspire to. Those that think they should be handed a reward simply because they participated often times lack the ability to realize that they are doing a disservice to themselves and the community to which they belong. I know it’s not the politically correct thing to say but there have to be “winners” and “losers” in any game, to expect otherwise is just foolishness.