Zerk is the average Joe build. Don’t pat yourself in the back too hard.
GW2 Trending #Skill=Rewards
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I wish we got all Dark Souls/Vindictus up in this joint. Then we could talk about skill, at least my definition of it in the sense of combat.
The fine mechanisms of Vindictus combat never ceased to amaze me. I don’t like being restricted to arbitrary 2 dodgerolls in Guild Wars when the others’ combat relies on precise management of stamina for blocking, dodging, sprinting and whatnot, making combat more fluid and dynamic.
Vindictus was fun from a combat perspective for sure, of course any kind of lag there was even more punishing than it is here especially on my fiona. Ultimately I left that game because at certain levels it almost felt a bit too much like work to be enjoyable, guess somewhere a long the line I got old lol.
I don’t see Skill in GW2, unless it’s in SPvP. Everything else gets zerged. The AI in GW2 need improving, because right now, they’re just pinatas.
Money is the problem with skill based rewards in MMOs. Gamers are entitled. Many people simply cannot accept that there is some sort of reward locked behind content they cannot complete. They will complain of bugs, bad mechanics, cheap designs… but rarely will they admit they simply are not good enough to do it. This creates an unhappy, unstable player base.
And thus, we get content pushed out and designed for the masses. Everyone can do everything, so the game can have maximum retention and make that $$$. It’s not unlike little league soccer back when we were 10. Everyone plays, and everyone gets a trophy at the end of the season. Can’t hurt anyone’s feelings.
To be fair, highly skilled players also complain if they feel the content is “beneath them.” Your post comes across to me as laying all the blame for all the game’s shortcomings in your view on casual, less skilled players. Perhaps I am wrong and just reading it the wrong way. A little empathy goes a long way.
And…yes, I readily admit that I am just not skilled enough for some content and…no, I do not feel entitled to the same rewards as those who are skilled enough to do it.
And the combat in GW2 requires a lot more skill than most other MMORPGs.
The combat does, the encounters don’t.
The most truthful quote ever.
Money is the problem with skill based rewards in MMOs. Gamers are entitled. Many people simply cannot accept that there is some sort of reward locked behind content they cannot complete. They will complain of bugs, bad mechanics, cheap designs… but rarely will they admit they simply are not good enough to do it. This creates an unhappy, unstable player base.
And thus, we get content pushed out and designed for the masses. Everyone can do everything, so the game can have maximum retention and make that $$$. It’s not unlike little league soccer back when we were 10. Everyone plays, and everyone gets a trophy at the end of the season. Can’t hurt anyone’s feelings.
To be fair, highly skilled players also complain if they feel the content is “beneath them.” Your post comes across to me as laying all the blame for all the game’s shortcomings in your view on casual, less skilled players. Perhaps I am wrong and just reading it the wrong way. A little empathy goes a long way.
And…yes, I readily admit that I am just not skilled enough for some content and…no, I do not feel entitled to the same rewards as those who are skilled enough to do it.
Sorry if that came off as kind of elitist, I was simply trying to explain why a heavily skill based MMO either isn’t happening or would be a niche game. Also, you may accept that, but many people do not. One only has to look at all the Liadri hate over the past two weeks to see this in GW2.
I personally prefer a game strikes a balance between the two, but that’s hard to do. You inevitably get one or both sides complaining about the other. At the moment, I think GW2 lies heavily on the skill-less (for lack of better wording) spectrum. It’s not a bad thing, but people need to realize that’s their approach.
Players who love games like Dark Souls or Ninja Gaiden types or I Wanna Be the Guy / spinoffs are in the minority in MMOs. Unfortunately, there really are very few options in the genre for skill reliant PvE.
Badding up tourneys since 2012
NA tPvP – Elementalist – Thief
NA tPvP – Elementalist – Thief
Skill… some people need to define skill when they talk about… Liadri is not MMO skill,.. is single player skill. Personally I don’t care for thakittens like playing SIMON, you finally get it after some tries. and is lag dependant so not everyone would be able to do it regardless of “skill”.
What I’d like to see is at least a tiny piece of Co-Op content and not random people fighting besides doing who knows what (oh yes, zerkhergh ermergherd i can haz big numberzzz). The day we have something that requires a party to stop a second… think… and then move, I’ll give them back the R in their MMOPG.
How do you go about promoting strategic gameplay in a combat environment such as this? Perhaps make more phase fights where the phases come randomly as opposed to memorization of patterns (which is all skill is in this game)? The solution Anet came up with to making boss fights not quite as trivial is defiant stacks but it has a problem in that it promotes this zerker or bust mindset, but without them being immune to cc think about how easy they could be if you just chain knocked or stunned them, it would switch from erhmagerd deeps to erhmagerd deeps/cc. So what is the solution? Unpredictability is the only real answer to ever change the pve situation in this game, it would also force players to build a bit more for surviving but it would make it difficult to then come up with a encounter “strategy” and could potentially push the gap even further in favor of certain classes than it already does.
Players who love games like Dark Souls or Ninja Gaiden types or I Wanna Be the Guy / spinoffs are in the minority in MMOs. Unfortunately, there really are very few options in the genre for skill reliant PvE.
People who like games THAT difficult are not a majority in any genre!
Anyways, I stand by my deadline stance being a reason nobody wants more challenge. But I think part of the complaint is also about the whole difficulty vs reward issue. Urmaug’s secret is probably the easiest JP, and it gives just as many achievement points as Obsidian Sanctum. In fact, they all give the same 10 achievement points. The reason so many people spent all their time in COF 1 before is because all dungeon paths give basically the same reward and that one was just faster. The crazy thing is that the scarlet invasions are probably not even a better ROI, just require less than the minimal skill that COF1 did. But the issue is a measure of skill vs time. I would rather my time sink into something be related to how difficult it was instead of just consuming time in the most direct sense.
Fort Aspenwood – [fury], [SAO], [NICE]
Fun on someone else’s schedule is not fun
Fun on someone else’s schedule is not fun
Money is the problem with skill based rewards in MMOs. Gamers are entitled. Many people simply cannot accept that there is some sort of reward locked behind content they cannot complete. They will complain of bugs, bad mechanics, cheap designs… but rarely will they admit they simply are not good enough to do it. This creates an unhappy, unstable player base.
And thus, we get content pushed out and designed for the masses. Everyone can do everything, so the game can have maximum retention and make that $$$. It’s not unlike little league soccer back when we were 10. Everyone plays, and everyone gets a trophy at the end of the season. Can’t hurt anyone’s feelings.
To be fair, highly skilled players also complain if they feel the content is “beneath them.” Your post comes across to me as laying all the blame for all the game’s shortcomings in your view on casual, less skilled players. Perhaps I am wrong and just reading it the wrong way. A little empathy goes a long way.
And…yes, I readily admit that I am just not skilled enough for some content and…no, I do not feel entitled to the same rewards as those who are skilled enough to do it.
Sorry if that came off as kind of elitist, I was simply trying to explain why a heavily skill based MMO either isn’t happening or would be a niche game. Also, you may accept that, but many people do not. One only has to look at all the Liadri hate over the past two weeks to see this in GW2.
I personally prefer a game strikes a balance between the two, but that’s hard to do. You inevitably get one or both sides complaining about the other. At the moment, I think GW2 lies heavily on the skill-less (for lack of better wording) spectrum. It’s not a bad thing, but people need to realize that’s their approach.
Players who love games like Dark Souls or Ninja Gaiden types or I Wanna Be the Guy / spinoffs are in the minority in MMOs. Unfortunately, there really are very few options in the genre for skill reliant PvE.
No problem…and I totally agree on the desirability of balance you spoke of. And, to be fair, I too prefer a game in which when I beat an encounter it is because of my skill (the little that I have) and not sheer luck. I also agree that it is likely a true exercise in frustration for developers to try and please everyone. Finally…and sadly, when I play I end up being highly focused on what I want and expect without regard for what others want. When I step back and think about it, I realize that I am not the center of the universe…so perhaps it is good for me to take that step back now and again.
And thanks for the thoughtful response.
I wish we got all Dark Souls/Vindictus up in this joint. Then we could talk about skill, at least my definition of it in the sense of combat.
The fine mechanisms of Vindictus combat never ceased to amaze me. I don’t like being restricted to arbitrary 2 dodgerolls in Guild Wars when the others’ combat relies on precise management of stamina for blocking, dodging, sprinting and whatnot, making combat more fluid and dynamic.
Vindictus was fun from a combat perspective for sure, of course any kind of lag there was even more punishing than it is here especially on my fiona. Ultimately I left that game because at certain levels it almost felt a bit too much like work to be enjoyable, guess somewhere a long the line I got old lol.
Yeah lag was a big problem at least from Nexon’s hamsters. I haven’t played since the gear grind just went out of the roof and the meaning of a “Korean Grindy Game” showed its true face, but I really liked Vindictus because of how completely intricate every part of the combat was, at least for Fiona (Lann is far too reliant on 10ping for me). The extra layer of choosing between shields made it for me. You had to choose whether to block or roll depending on stamina, had to know enemy attacks perfectly to time perfect block, knew of heavy stander cancel and sprint-smash dodging, choose between counter-attack or large shield, and all sorts of other tricks and strategies. That kind of, analyzing? makes me drool. I can’t say I wasn’t disappointed when I found out GDubs2 was only a quasi-Vindictus.
Anyone could have easily sat there and turtled in heavy stander for the entire boss fight, but a good Fiona knew how to utilize openings and stay alive the longest and thus shorten the fight by not turtling in a corner every time the boss did a smash.
Anyway, now I’m on a tangent. The only bad part about all of this is that knowing how to play your class like a boss didn’t merit any kind of reward other than crappy Fionas seeing how pro you are, oh yeah, and not dying repeatedly and making other people use feathers on your kitten . I’m all for rewarding more skilled players, but the term ‘skill’ is loosely defined, and like someone else said, there’s always walking the fine line between rewarding nothing to players who are good and players who are less skilled complaining about things being too hard. You can never win because either sides are always going to be complaining.
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Read Wingless, a fantasy comic about a knight’s journey, here!
Read Wingless, a fantasy comic about a knight’s journey, here!
I think the issue is actually not difficulty level, it’s lack of engaging and compelling reasons to do a particular encounter. All of the rewards in this game are of two types, either repeat ad nauseum(various currencies) or rng. While these kinds of rewards do keep people playing they don’t promote a real sense of accomplishment beyond time spent or luck. I know people make the argument that being “skilled” is it’s own reward
but even olympians get trophies for their effort if they succeed.The rpg portion of mmorpg is lacking here, and by that I mean character development or progression. Before anyone jumps and says we don’t want gear treadmill, that is not the type of progression I am referring to. By level 30 in this game you more or less have the majority of the skills unlocked that you will ever use, sure traits do enhance some of these skills in some way or another but it never quite gives the sense of getting something new or really making the character that much better than before you had said trait (with a few exceptions of course). All in all it achieves little to actually connect you to the avatar you are playing when the only choice is in terms of “effectiveness”.
How wonderful would it be to have something that validates the effort you put in? Why not design content that is more engaging and compelling like unique skins that are specific to a class that requires a heroic set of adventures to obtain rather than just simply repeating x activity y amount of times? These items do not need to offer an advantage over someone else in any way just change the how and why these items are gotten.
I think back to my days with another mmorpg, where even reaching level cap required that you fought a doppelganger of yourself of sorts to progress and I can’t help but feel like those types of situations are missing here. So it is clear I am not speaking specifically about recreating that scenario, but I simply mean moments that connect you to the avatar you are playing. In conclusion, I feel like this game has tons of untapped potential and could benefit from a few more imaginative and compelling ways to give a sense of accomplishment, reward, and character progression.
because that is difficult to make.
it is a better use of dev time to make weapons that any race can use (even charr and asura) and put them behind time-gated rng mountains, then congratulate themselves on another job well done.
Skill… some people need to define skill when they talk about… Liadri is not MMO skill,.. is single player skill. Personally I don’t care for thakittens like playing SIMON, you finally get it after some tries. and is lag dependant so not everyone would be able to do it regardless of “skill”.
What I’d like to see is at least a tiny piece of Co-Op content and not random people fighting besides doing who knows what (oh yes, zerkhergh ermergherd i can haz big numberzzz). The day we have something that requires a party to stop a second… think… and then move, I’ll give them back the R in their MMOPG.
How do you go about promoting strategic gameplay in a combat environment such as this? Perhaps make more phase fights where the phases come randomly as opposed to memorization of patterns (which is all skill is in this game)? The solution Anet came up with to making boss fights not quite as trivial is defiant stacks but it has a problem in that it promotes this zerker or bust mindset, but without them being immune to cc think about how easy they could be if you just chain knocked or stunned them, it would switch from erhmagerd deeps to erhmagerd deeps/cc. So what is the solution? Unpredictability is the only real answer to ever change the pve situation in this game, it would also force players to build a bit more for surviving but it would make it difficult to then come up with a encounter “strategy” and could potentially push the gap even further in favor of certain classes than it already does.
Unpredictability is key I agree. This is something I always do while developing IA for mobs in a game I’m doing as a hobby with my bro (he is the artist). And it’s not even that hard, just program some phases, some triggers and let them randomly occur. For example, 3 phases range, 3 melee; let them randomly switch from melee to range and which of the 3. This very basic design already gave you 6 different moves of a boss without knowing which one he will use. I think this game already have random events on bosses, but it needs more depth. I can’t believe GW1 had so much better fights… I’m really not seeing the impossibility for having the same fights here.
Zerk is the average Joe build. Don’t pat yourself in the back too hard.
Why not both?
This last content patch was great: casual events and hardcore events released side-by-side. Gives the skilled players a chance to show off, while the casuals don’t get left behind.
Skill should only unlock cosmetics: armor sets, weapon skins, minis, or titles. However, I feel that there should be some way to show off ingame and say, “I was there; I did that.”
Talia Gallowglass [Few] ~ Sylvari Engineer Main
Ferguson’s Crossing
Ferguson’s Crossing
Their should be challenging stuff that is the most rewarding, there can still be easy casual farm that can be like 80% as good. But risk needs to be rewarded.
Ah, but rewarded how? Better gear? New skills? That would make the best players even better, and widen the gap between what they want and what most other players can handle.
Larger amounts of the normal rewards? That just means that the best players will run out of things to strive for all the sooner.
Unique skins and cosmetics? Some of those casual players are VERY into how their characters look, and finding out that they can’t get the items they need to complete their character’s look can drive them away. Given that these are the same people that spend money in the gemstore for cosmetics, ANet doesn’t want to do that.
About the only thing I can think of that would be a good reward is a title that pretty much says “I beat this”. In CoH, I saw quite a few people take on difficult tasks to earn the "Master of … " titles. Would that be enough reward for the people playing here?
Bingo. Finally someone gets it. +1
Their should be challenging stuff that is the most rewarding, there can still be easy casual farm that can be like 80% as good. But risk needs to be rewarded.
Ah, but rewarded how? Better gear? New skills? That would make the best players even better, and widen the gap between what they want and what most other players can handle.
Larger amounts of the normal rewards? That just means that the best players will run out of things to strive for all the sooner.
Unique skins and cosmetics? Some of those casual players are VERY into how their characters look, and finding out that they can’t get the items they need to complete their character’s look can drive them away. Given that these are the same people that spend money in the gemstore for cosmetics, ANet doesn’t want to do that.
About the only thing I can think of that would be a good reward is a title that pretty much says “I beat this”. In CoH, I saw quite a few people take on difficult tasks to earn the "Master of … " titles. Would that be enough reward for the people playing here?
Bingo. Finally someone gets it. +1
How does this person get it? YOU CANNOT SPOON FEED PEOPLE. If you want a skin EARN IT!
I am not saying that you should take out all the easy content and easy ways to make money, but you need to add something more challenging that rewards more
Risk should equal reward, not time.
The fact that people make WAY more money then me mindlessly zerging then i do on lvl 48 fractals is FLAWED.
“If you want to get rid of “zerk” you have to make content
hard enough to make them cry, not just rivers but oceans."
hard enough to make them cry, not just rivers but oceans."
Their should be challenging stuff that is the most rewarding, there can still be easy casual farm that can be like 80% as good. But risk needs to be rewarded.
Ah, but rewarded how? Better gear? New skills? That would make the best players even better, and widen the gap between what they want and what most other players can handle.
Larger amounts of the normal rewards? That just means that the best players will run out of things to strive for all the sooner.
Unique skins and cosmetics? Some of those casual players are VERY into how their characters look, and finding out that they can’t get the items they need to complete their character’s look can drive them away. Given that these are the same people that spend money in the gemstore for cosmetics, ANet doesn’t want to do that.
About the only thing I can think of that would be a good reward is a title that pretty much says “I beat this”. In CoH, I saw quite a few people take on difficult tasks to earn the "Master of … " titles. Would that be enough reward for the people playing here?
I look at choices such as having order gear, and tiered cultural armor sets as a perfect opportunity to give compelling game choices but instead they are simply just vendor items that only show how well you are able to farm gold/karma. How much better would it have been if they included some story based content or something similar to go along with acquiring these sets. I realize it takes more developer resources in order to accomplish but it would add so much more “value” to the items in my opinion if they had a story attached to getting them.
As for the argument that “casual” players might feel alienated because they can not get a certain look that is gated behind a skill threshold, this makes the assumption that “casual” players are not skilled. I am a “casual” player because of the amount of time I can spend playing not because of my skill level and as it stands now I am alienated because I don’t have the time to farm. I would appreciate having a chance to tackle something that may be difficult and reward me with a nice looking skin choice even if I fail 100 times but I can be guaranteed a reward if I do succeed. I understand from a business stand point that they want to generate revenue from the widest array of people as possible, but catering to people that simply can’t see that not everyone should have everything is terrible from a design standpoint. The same hypothetical “casual” player that complains about not having a cosmetic option because the content is too difficult is likely to also complain that they can’t have the title that you suggested as well.
It is true that defining skill in PvE is a bit difficult. But that’s why I’m sure it will grow over time. I think the problem right now is the mobs are currently dumb, or overly preset, and even in some cases damage sponges which isn’t the best play, However given how barebones a lot of content feels I’m inclined to presume this is a technology problem or a slow boil development issue. Either way I’m pretty sure it will adapt and evolve over time till it is a stronger system.
Also to clarify When I talk “Rewards” I’m thinking along the lines of once per day account bound guarantied exotic for your class with a higher chance at a precursor Salvageable, Mystic Forgeable, doesn’t break the economy.
individualized skins are still a pretty good option, and personally I’d love that too. I saw someone post about how “Casuals want their gear a certain way but won’t get it ect ect” but it’s not like there is a barrier stopping them. It’s no different from a guy who’s not that great at jumping puzzles goin for the quaggan one, it’ll take him a bunch of tries but he slowly gets better as he keeps at it!
Someone else’s response said make them tradeable skins, I like this idea but only if RNG drops are kept out of it. Like finishing content = guarantied exotic and tokens. Tokens = trade able skins.
I know I already said this, but I do NOT feel a gear treadmill is a good idea in anyway, the players able to finish this content well only be able to make their characters look nicer and maybe slightly richer in a way that doesn’t involve endlessly boring farm, or being super lucky.
(Sorry for no quotes I’m on a smartphone and it’s kind of a pain to use these forums)
“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
I think the OP has a valid point. I also think that there are far more people not interested in hard content than are interested in hard content, but I don’t see why we can’t have both.
The problem is, Anet isn’t likely to make more content for the smaller percentage of players…and lest you think people who like hard content are the majority, we know from past interviews with devs that that’s not really the case.
As an example, Ghost Crawler, the head dev for WoW, has said publicly that only 5% of the playerbase ever beat the hardest content in the game. That’s not a huge percentage.
There’s a reason why games are getting easier and easier. Obviously if everyone loved hard content, games would be getting harder…but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
But I think that there should be hard stuff in the game for people who like hard stuff…as long as it doesn’t reward them with power. That I’m dead set against.
I mean if you’re really really good, you don’t need more power. It’s the guys who are really bad who need more power. lol
I am completely against significant gear treadmills, check the link in my original post and tell me if you think that’d be to broken.
I said power…not gear treadmill. Sorry I wasn’t clearer, but power doesn’t only have to come from gear. Remember Anet is also about to release skills and traits too, and we don’t know how they’re going to be unlocked.
I believe the reward for challenge content should be stuff like titles, achievements, cosmetic stuff…but nothing that makes someone more powerful…gear or no gear.
Oh that is true. But I thought it was stated that everything was going to be unlocked via skill points? Other than gimmicky fun skills like “Tonic effect in utility with 1sec C/D” I don’t really see skills being content gated. Though I could be wrong, interesting prospect.
“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
Oh that is true. But I thought it was stated that everything was going to be unlocked via skill points? Other than gimmicky fun skills like “Tonic effect in utility with 1sec C/D” I don’t really see skills being content gated. Though I could be wrong, interesting prospect.
I used general terms, because I was talking generally not specifically. In games in general, I think it’s bad design to make people who are already better more powerful, that’s all. It’s the opposite of golf.
The better you are at golf, the higher your handicap.
I’ve often thought it was be interesting to see this sort of thing adapted for MMOs. The further you get, the harder your personal game gets…which means that people who really want a challenge can be challenged, but people who don’t need a challenge can be buffed.
It’s sort of like the idea behind gambits, in a way. It adds a layer of challenge for the harder core player.
No you’ll have all the noob crybabies complaining cause they can’t get the rewards.
It already started with the Liadria mini….
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