Guild Wars 2

We all know that math is an universal language, present in everything we know about life, (except matters of the heart and spiritual force) and i grew tired of watching this community not reaching a point of consensus about player feedback for the last 2 years, so instead of writing something that someone would just retort as usual, i decided to post something that is universally true, unless some new genius here wants to refute this thesis.

“In game theory, the Nash equilibrium is a solution concept of a non-cooperative game involving two or more players, in which each player is assumed to know the equilibrium strategies of the other players, and no player has anything to gain by changing only their own strategy. If each player has chosen a strategy and no player can benefit by changing strategies while the other players keep theirs unchanged, then the current set of strategy choices and the corresponding payoffs constitute a Nash equilibrium.”

The fact is that, every single person defends their own opinion and views regarding any subject in question, and most of the people are not interested in giving away any ground.

Why shouldn’t we care when someone says they are not happy with something in the game?

Why should we refuse to accept other player ideas just because we are happy with how things are working for us?

Why i, that usually like to play a given mmorpg for long periods of time, shouldn’t help to keep game populated by closely and carefully listen to players complaints and fight for an understanding?

Don’t you guys like to see the game you love playing, populated?

So, if we all love the same game, why shouldn’t we push together, as a group, and help ANet find a better path, a better solution?

I really think our mentality as individuals needs to change.
I really wish our mentality as individuals could evolve, but if we cant even listen to people in a game forum, how can we even expect to make things better in real life?

Gaming wise, and talking about GW2, the player community should really just join hands and focus on finding a middle ground for every request, complaint and wishes made by players in this forum everyday for the last 2 years, and press Anet to deliver it.

Anet should be making the game “we” want to play, inside the tech and game engine possibilities ofc, but if we cant reach a consensus inside the game community, how can ArenaNet understand what are we looking for?

Does any of this makes any sense to you?

It makes all the sense to me.

Clerigo.9475:

how can ArenaNet understand what are we looking for?

Easy.

“How can we make more money?”
“Appeal to the lowest common denominator!”
“Done!”

It’s simple economics.

When the Nash Equilibrium runs into Cognitive Dissonance, the kitten hits the fan. Entrenchment is the name of this game. Turtle down and scream the loudest! However, I do agree, IF people would pull in one direction amazing things can be accomplished. Not good things or bad things, but amazing things.

blind idealism…

the assumption here is that it is the lack of a clear voice from the community that is the problem, i doubt that this is the case.

phys.7689:

the assumption here is that it is the lack of a clear voice from the community that is the problem, i doubt that this is the case.

Based on the responses I’m seeing from this interview I’d say people are fairly unanimous.

Allaraina.8614:

phys.7689:

the assumption here is that it is the lack of a clear voice from the community that is the problem, i doubt that this is the case.

Based on the responses I’m seeing from this interview I’d say people are fairly unanimous.

Except that forum goers traditionally only represent about 15% of the gaming population and very often what they want is not what the majority wants. You may not believe it, but that doesn’t stop it from being true. That’s the real problem.

Recently Lotro stopped adding raids to their patches. If you look at the forum, everyone wanted raids, raided, looked forward to raiding. A lotro dev said only 2% of the population ever raided. But the forums tell a completely different story (something that same dev also said).

So comments on reddit? Not really all that much to write home about.

Vayne.8563:

Allaraina.8614:

phys.7689:

the assumption here is that it is the lack of a clear voice from the community that is the problem, i doubt that this is the case.

Based on the responses I’m seeing from this interview I’d say people are fairly unanimous.

Except that forum goers traditionally only represent about 15% of the gaming population and very often what they want is not what the majority wants. You may not believe it, but that doesn’t stop it from being true. That’s the real problem.

Recently Lotro stopped adding raids to their patches. If you look at the forum, everyone wanted raids, raided, looked forward to raiding. A lotro dev said only 2% of the population ever raided. But the forums tell a completely different story (something that same dev also said).

So comments on reddit? Not really all that much to write home about.

Okay, that’s true and that’s a good reminder….

<— still saddened by the interview T_T

Allaraina.8614:

Vayne.8563:

Allaraina.8614:

phys.7689:

the assumption here is that it is the lack of a clear voice from the community that is the problem, i doubt that this is the case.

Based on the responses I’m seeing from this interview I’d say people are fairly unanimous.

Except that forum goers traditionally only represent about 15% of the gaming population and very often what they want is not what the majority wants. You may not believe it, but that doesn’t stop it from being true. That’s the real problem.

Recently Lotro stopped adding raids to their patches. If you look at the forum, everyone wanted raids, raided, looked forward to raiding. A lotro dev said only 2% of the population ever raided. But the forums tell a completely different story (something that same dev also said).

So comments on reddit? Not really all that much to write home about.

Okay, that’s true and that’s a good reminder….

<— still saddened by the interview T_T

I know from stuff said by devs that Anet puts a lot of stock into metrics. They’re always watching what people play. They have stats that track everything. They know exactly how many characters were killed by a Risen Thralls during the first year.

I suppose it’s possible to put too much faith into metrics too, but I’m not sure if that’s the case.

I think if Anet would release some of the metrics, people would be very very surprised.

Vayne.8563:

Allaraina.8614:

Vayne.8563:

Allaraina.8614:

phys.7689:

the assumption here is that it is the lack of a clear voice from the community that is the problem, i doubt that this is the case.

Based on the responses I’m seeing from this interview I’d say people are fairly unanimous.

Except that forum goers traditionally only represent about 15% of the gaming population and very often what they want is not what the majority wants. You may not believe it, but that doesn’t stop it from being true. That’s the real problem.

Recently Lotro stopped adding raids to their patches. If you look at the forum, everyone wanted raids, raided, looked forward to raiding. A lotro dev said only 2% of the population ever raided. But the forums tell a completely different story (something that same dev also said).

So comments on reddit? Not really all that much to write home about.

Okay, that’s true and that’s a good reminder….

<— still saddened by the interview T_T

I know from stuff said by devs that Anet puts a lot of stock into metrics. They’re always watching what people play. They have stats that track everything. They know exactly how many characters were killed by a Risen Thralls during the first year.

I suppose it’s possible to put too much faith into metrics too, but I’m not sure if that’s the case.

I think if Anet would release some of the metrics, people would be very very surprised.

last SAB overlapped with the first WvW season if i remember correctly, so metrics wouldnt really give a full picture. But whatevs, regardless, its done.

Vayne.8563:

I know from stuff said by devs that Anet puts a lot of stock into metrics. They’re always watching what people play. They have stats that track everything. They know exactly how many characters were killed by a Risen Thralls during the first year.

I suppose it’s possible to put too much faith into metrics too, but I’m not sure if that’s the case.

I think if Anet would release some of the metrics, people would be very very surprised.

Metrics are good, but there are few, if any, metrics for things that don’t exist. They can’t tell how many people are in a guild hall or how many times a kitten gets ridden, because null isn’t a number.

OP’s point is more relevant to new features and systems, which get their start either in dev rooms or player suggestion forums. Granted, once the idea hits the dev level, the players’ opinion doesn’t matter for squat until release, and after that, there’s metrics.

Though, yeah, you’re right, I think another infographic or something might give the players some interesting GW2 trivia on what exactly people are doing.

insanemaniac.2456:

blind idealism…

Its funny, but would never think of “cooperation” and “understanding” as idealism…guess its a snapshot of the reality you live in eh?

Rauderi.8706:

Vayne.8563:

I know from stuff said by devs that Anet puts a lot of stock into metrics. They’re always watching what people play. They have stats that track everything. They know exactly how many characters were killed by a Risen Thralls during the first year.

I suppose it’s possible to put too much faith into metrics too, but I’m not sure if that’s the case.

I think if Anet would release some of the metrics, people would be very very surprised.

Metrics are good, but there are few, if any, metrics for things that don’t exist. They can’t tell how many people are in a guild hall or how many times a kitten gets ridden, because null isn’t a number.

OP’s point is more relevant to new features and systems, which get their start either in dev rooms or player suggestion forums. Granted, once the idea hits the dev level, the players’ opinion doesn’t matter for squat until release, and after that, there’s metrics.

Though, yeah, you’re right, I think another infographic or something might give the players some interesting GW2 trivia on what exactly people are doing.

I understand metrics, and i can actually tolerate them to a certain point, or at least try to make some effort to understand them.

I would like to see the metrics for the 3.5 million copies this game sold crossed with the actual people of those 3.5 mil that actually play the game.

Can ANet show that metric please?

Vayne.8563:

Except that forum goers traditionally only represent about 15% of the gaming population and very often what they want is not what the majority wants. You may not believe it, but that doesn’t stop it from being true. That’s the real problem.

Recently Lotro stopped adding raids to their patches. If you look at the forum, everyone wanted raids, raided, looked forward to raiding. A lotro dev said only 2% of the population ever raided. But the forums tell a completely different story (something that same dev also said).

So comments on reddit? Not really all that much to write home about.

I could have swore I read a dev post around 6 or so months ago that stated that at the time, only 8% of all accounts had ever logged into the forums.

Clerigo.9475:

insanemaniac.2456:

blind idealism…

Its funny, but would never think of “cooperation” and “understanding” as idealism…guess its a snapshot of the reality you live in eh?

“if we all work together things will be just better "… thats not an ideal?

anets authoritarian control over their product will prevent your blind idealism from ever ossifying into something the community will be able to whip out. because at the end of the day, we depend on anet for anything relating to the game and theyre a for profit corporation looking to stay in the black and not die trying.

insanemaniac.2456:

Clerigo.9475:

insanemaniac.2456:

blind idealism…

Its funny, but would never think of “cooperation” and “understanding” as idealism…guess its a snapshot of the reality you live in eh?

“if we all work together things will be just better "… thats not an ideal?

anets authoritarian control over their product will prevent your blind idealism from ever ossifying into something the community will be able to whip out. because at the end of the day, we depend on anet for anything relating to the game and theyre a for profit corporation looking to stay in the black and not die trying.

The full quote is “So, if we all love the same game, why shouldn’t we push together, as a group, and help ANet find a better path, a better solution?”

That is indeed an ideal, but its not a blind one.

I think everyone understands that developers and gaming labels work for profit, as all other industries do. Im happy they have profit, and im happy to be paying for a game that i like.

What im not happy with, me and alot more people than some metrics claim to show, is that im part of that cluster of players that like to pay for a game and see that investment payoff, even if the game is not in perfect shape as was expected at the launch.
I can keep supporting the game if i see the developer working towards improving the game.
Now, improving the game does not solely pass by adding pixels and eliminating bugs.
Improving is also adding content, in a manner that respects both the developer team working behind the scenes, but also the players supporting the game, because thats where the money comes in.

This is a snowball, easy to perceive and avoid.

ANet shouldnt be afraid of turning the tables and give this game the direction is needed, because GW2 sold 3.5 mil copies. There are people out there that want to play this game but they are very disappointed with how GW2 turned out to be.

When we consider the number of copies sold, ANet knows that there are more people not playing this game than the ones actually playing it, and the fact that ANet doesnt take a dive in when they know this game is still talked around all the gaming forums in the world, that all new mmorpgs coming up are not as good as everyone wants to, it makes me a bit sad, because i want to play GW2 :P

Now, i dont see why the community doesnt embrace a wider range of content to add in the game. I dont really get it.

It would make many players remain in the game.
It would bring back new and veteran players.
It would allow the game to continue developing as the cash inflow would increase.

Thats my orginal intention with the post.

Why not add the content that players want to see in the game?

I see alot of things people ask for that do not require to change game mechanics or itemization, and others that would take alot of work but would make of GW2 the game that we wish it to be and that was promised to us.

Anything wrong with that?

Clerigo.9475:

-snip-
Anything wrong with that?

Not a kitten thing wrong with that. Well said.
I see a lot of opinions that range from No to Hell No, when they should be asking the question “How can I make this work in a way that I would like or would bother me the least?”

Features bring and retain players. Saying “No” to them leads to stagnation, boredom, and to be melodramatic, death of a game. Better to say “Yes, but with the following stipulations:” than deny what other players might want.

Rauderi.8706:

Clerigo.9475:

-snip-
Anything wrong with that?

Not a kitten thing wrong with that. Well said.
I see a lot of opinions that range from No to Hell No, when they should be asking the question “How can I make this work in a way that I would like or would bother me the least?”

Features bring and retain players. Saying “No” to them leads to stagnation, boredom, and to be melodramatic, death of a game. Better to say “Yes, but with the following stipulations:” than deny what other players might want.

Thank you. Thats the spirit.

Clerigo.9475:

Why shouldn’t we care when someone says they are not happy with something in the game?

Why should we refuse to accept other player ideas just because we are happy with how things are working for us?

There’s can only be a certain allocation of resources on ANet’s part, and the work that’s needed to implement certain desired features is quite a lot.

The debate is not about whether or not something needs to change or what needs to change – in fact, ideally all of the options suggested would be options.

But ANet is limited by time and resources.

@OP

The main problem is that although we all love the game, there are many ideas of what would “improve” the game. Things like mounts and dueling are hot topics. Yet the majority of people cannot agree on those things being an improvement to the game at all. So do those who disagree with mounts and/or duels, compromise and advocate for their implementaion? Or do those who are for it compromise and agree that they shouldn’t? Where do you draw the line?

To quote Satoshi Taijiri (creator of Pokemon): “You all think you have great ideas for the Pokemon games, but if I actually listened to all of you and we combined all of your ideas into a game, it would be an unplayable monstrosity. You want a game with all the regions, yet only the first generation Pokemons, and yet all the legendary ones and such silly things.”

So while we may try to come to a middle ground, and present a “unified front” (so to speak) on certain issues, would these things in fact be good for the game overall? Or would it create an “unplayable monstrosity”? We can give ideas, and suggestions, but it’s up to Anet to filter though the crap and decide whether or not it would be a good idea. A good example of that happening is with the upcoming changes to commander tags and colors. Many people came together and brought up how such a terrible idea it was, Anet listened and had people work overtime through their weekend to fix it. Now even in that there were those who said it was fine, and that people were overreacting, and 300g per color was a good idea and should stay that way.

Vayne.8563:

Except that forum goers traditionally only represent about 15% of the gaming population and very often what they want is not what the majority wants.

- How can you back up the claim that opinions of 15% of players is not what the majority wants? If you go and poll 15% of the people who they are voting in the next presidential elections you’d have pretty kitten good estimate of the election result.

Difference between random sampling and self reporting. The forum is self reporting.

Clerigo.9475:

Why not add the content that players want to see in the game?

- What do players want to see? You have to understand that running a game is running a business. To make it a successful business you have to sell players stuff that they will buy. Take a look at League of Legends for example. You can buy skins for the champions you play and you can buy champions to experience the game in different way. That’s an ace business plan! Of course people are interested in how they experience the game.

Now compare this to what Anet is doing. Town clothes that can’t be worn in combat: who’s buying these? A minipet? Kit that repairs your armor…? Gambling for skins and items that give random temporary effect. All of this stuff is disconnected from the gameplay experience. You’re not going to see updates if the business is not generating money.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Vayne.8563:

Except that forum goers traditionally only represent about 15% of the gaming population and very often what they want is not what the majority wants. You may not believe it, but that doesn’t stop it from being true. That’s the real problem.

Recently Lotro stopped adding raids to their patches. If you look at the forum, everyone wanted raids, raided, looked forward to raiding. A lotro dev said only 2% of the population ever raided. But the forums tell a completely different story (something that same dev also said).

So comments on reddit? Not really all that much to write home about.

I could have swore I read a dev post around 6 or so months ago that stated that at the time, only 8% of all accounts had ever logged into the forums.

So maybe this game doesn’t have 3.5 million people logging into the forum, only 280,000! The funny thing is, if people didn’t have a forum we might have ended up with essentially nothing or worse. Without all the complaints and suggestions we could have had 3 new tiers of gear, skyhammer in teamQ forever, and just recently Anet said they ditched the 300g per commander color because of the feedback on the forum. There are many ways players impact the game through the forum, it doesn’t matter that they aren’t officially the majority(can you imagine even 1 million people on a forum?).

Zenith.6403:

Clerigo.9475:

Why not add the content that players want to see in the game?

Now compare this to what Anet is doing. Town clothes that can’t be worn in combat: who’s buying these? A minipet? Kit that repairs your armor…? Gambling for skins and items that give random temporary effect. All of this stuff is disconnected from the gameplay experience. You’re not going to see updates if the business is not generating money.

Thats it!! You are right!!

And that whym and in that spirit, that players should really make at least a small effort to just be open to every suggestion and help the developer understand what we want.

You cant just open a forum post that says “PLease make town clothes wearable in combat” and throw in an automatically “no, its fine the way it is”…

All im asking with this topic is for people to start making some effort to make this game a bit more enjoyable for those that need a bit more flavour in it.

If the players that are enjoying this game alot, dont help, who will?

Metrics are a form of communication. I would even argue, one could find a language (symbolism that supports infinite workload), within a system using metrics. What a player says with game-play will not lie and it is communication. The hardest thing for metrics to measure though is content outside of the system. Imo a game like GW2, is likely to self select for stability of player intent, but have a hard time growing in size without system wide (and system disruptive) adaptations.

The forums have a place because forum users are self- selecting for willingness to talk outside of the game-play system and talk about the future of the game.

Clerigo,

I think the forum-centered system stability, the cohesiveness of voice, that you are describing depends most on logical individuals maintaining logical dialog. Particpate in the CDI’s and lead by example.