Guild Wars 2

Hello mates.

I’ve been thinking these days about the game and the abolishment of the HT it made (at least a bit).
Now I honestly think it would be better if they make the professions to adopt every role, like they are now more or less, but not at the same time. Let me explain this: right now, you can make some hybrid builds and given the fact that everyone has a healing skill and no limits on using utility skills beyond the number of them BUT what if, for example, traits lines were only 3 per profession (control, support and dps)?

My idea is that everyone can make everything but not at the same time. You still have trinity with this, but you fix the problem of “lf monk” now it’s “lf healer” which can be anyone. Think a moment about this: you are a mesmer and you invest points on your support trait line (you can’t invest points on other lines once you have invested points in one), now you can take 4 utility skills support oriented only and an support elite as well. You are a full support now, somebody else in the dungeon you wanna do goes support too, 1 control and 2 dps.
Everyone only have 1 role like in almost every MMO out there, but with the difference that if you get tired of one role, you only need to reset you traits and take another line (which means other utilities and elites).

What do you think about this idea? Do you have others? Post them!

PS.: I don’t know if I’ve explained my idea very well since English is not my first language. Let me know if it’s unclear

PS2.: This post is not to ask ArenaNet to change anything, it’s only a discussion of the current system and alternatives you can figure out

Stop thinking in terms of “roles” and you’ll be better off. Skills cover various aspects, many with a mix of damage, control and support all tied to them. Look at mesmer focus 4… support allies with a speed boost, control foes with a cripple and even allows for indirect damage when you shatter it and yank enemies off cliffs to their splattery goodness doom. If you start genericizing skills to be damage, control or support then you take away the tactical use of skills and run the risk of turning into an archaic “use off cooldown” type of game.

Instead of trying to play roles, play your skills. Learn what each one does and use it when appropriate. I could use Greatsword 2 off cooldown, for example, or I could hold it a bit until allies are in range so they can get the benefits of the bouncy buffs it gives in addition to the damage it applies. Combat, I’ve found, makes the best sense and really begins to flow smoothly when you forget about a role and instead play your skills based on what they do.

That is an interesting opinion Volkon, only a little note: you say with my idea I take away tactical use of the skills which probably is right but I think with the current system you take away a lot of the tactical use of classes because… you know thieves support instead of a guardian? XDDD

Anyway thanks for responding and contributing to this discussion

I personally can’t wait for the players who would insult anyone who perfers the trinity as “unskilled.” I dare you to go up to a top 100 WoW raiding guild and say that.

The alternative to the current system exists in every other fantasy MMO out there. I used to DJ some time ago and patrons would come up to me for requests, “Can you play some Nine Inch Nails?”, “Sure, what song did you have in mind?”, “Can you play Closer?”, “I can but I won’t and here’s why. Every other club you go to will play that exact same NiN song every night, everyone else plays that same song. We’re not everyone else. I’ll play NiN for you, but it’s gonna be a different song.” It was, until I stopped doing it, the busiest club in the scene for 5 years.

GW2 is not every other MMO, stop trying to make it like every other MMO because that is what you are used to playing.

Vasham.2408:

I personally can’t wait for the players who would insult anyone who perfers the trinity as “unskilled.” I dare you to go up to a top 100 WoW raiding guild and say that.

The problem with using WoW raids as a base to determine skill is that they’re nothing more than scripted events. When a new raid is made, the “top” guilds get to beta test the raid. They’re also given the script on how to fight that particular fight. Tanks do this, dps avoid that, etc. Once they’ve mastered the script, they create videos to tell the rest of the community exactly how to do the fight. The only skill they really have is skill at following a script. When I was playing (pre-Cata), tanking was going to the right place and doing my 9-6-9 rotation, occasionally using a taunt if an add broke loose or whatever. At predetermined (and loudly alarmed) moments I may need to add in an additional mitigation skill… that was pretty much it. On my hunter, go there, start rotation. Alarm sounds, next line in the script.

That’s what I like about the GW2 system instead… scripts are tossed out the window. You’re free to deal with the encounters as you see fit, and there are a myriad amount of ways to do so. I do what needs to be done, not what the script tells me I need to do next.

To the OP:

What you’re essentially suggesting is that the game artificially restrict players in what they can or can’t do, handcuffing them and taking away true build diversity. No thank you.

For the first time ever in an MMO, I have a character that I can truly be proud of. He’s strong, versatile and adaptive. I purposefully built my Ranger to be fully capable of handling himself in every situation the open world PvE experience has to offer. But this is not to say that he’s not a team player. I can keep nearly 50% up time on Fury for myself and 5 players, set up water fields and hand out regeneration like its going out of style and I’m built with nearly full Knight’s (some Cleric and Soldier) so my HUGE Toughness rating makes me an aggro magnet (and one that can handle it quite easily) so I can psuedo-tank most encounters where the mobs favor high toughness/high damage.

I’m a “jack of many trades” but not of all. You can’t put a label on what I bring to a group, but any group I’m a part of benefits from what I bring. I tank very effectively, I heal decently, I buff well enough and my damage (when the RNG gods favor me and my pets when it comes to crits) is solid. I’m an awesome rezzer with Zephyr + pet swap Quickness + Search and Rescue + Spirit of Nature.

For once, I have found a unique character that defies all “classic MMO” definitions and still works well as a group. He doesn’t have a defined role, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t do his part.

I’m not EVERYTHING at the same time. I’m just a lot of little parts of a lot of different roles mashed together in a unique package.

moirweyn.9872:

GW2 is not every other MMO, stop trying to make it like every other MMO because that is what you are used to playing.

First of all I must to say again that this is a simple thread of “what if…” only that

I’ve played GW1 for around 3500 hours and it’s my most played MMO (if you want to tag it this way). I’ve enjoyed its PvE and PvP sooo much, and one thing I miss from it is that you had to get the right builds for PvP and PvE (I used to play with my guild so much HoH and dungeons with a real life friend) but right now, at least for PvE, it seems like it doesn’t matter what build you bring, if its balanced you can do it. Everyone only cares about himself and only cares about the others if they are downed, beyond that… you don’t need so much team strategy.

That is why I thought on this alternative system. You have versatility with it: you can go DPS one day or two, you get tired, change to support or control and enjoy the new perspective. But it seems so many people are enjoying the current system so that’s very good for the game!

And again, i’m not trying to do something with this. I only want your opinions and ideas ^^

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

moirweyn.9872:

GW2 is not every other MMO, stop trying to make it like every other MMO because that is what you are used to playing.

First of all I must to say again that this is a simple thread of “what if…” only that

I’ve played GW1 for around 3500 hours and it’s my most played MMO (if you want to tag it this way). I’ve enjoyed its PvE and PvP sooo much, and one thing I miss from it is that you had to get the right builds for PvP and PvE (I used to play with my guild so much HoH and dungeons with a real life friend) but right now, at least for PvE, it seems like it doesn’t matter what build you bring, if its balanced you can do it. Everyone only cares about himself and only cares about the others if they are downed, beyond that… you don’t need so much team strategy.

That is why I thought on this alternative system. You have versatility with it: you can go DPS one day or two, you get tired, change to support or control and enjoy the new perspective. But it seems so many people are enjoying the current system so that’s very good for the game!

And again, i’m not trying to do something with this. I only want your opinions and ideas ^^

In order to do that you’d have to redesign… well, pretty much everything, from all the skills and their effects (many of which have more than one element of damage, control and support), you’d have to change to allow targeting allies, you’d have to redesign the entire traits system, etc.

If it ain’t broke… and believe me, it isn’t. It’s surprising how much you can do with what on the surface appears to be a minimal number of skills but in practice is much deeper than that.

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

First of all I must to say again that this is a simple thread of “what if…” only that

And again, i’m not trying to do something with this. I only want your opinions and ideas ^^

The problem here is that you’re posting this “what if” in a forum where a very loud sub-population has been hounding on this topic for a while now.

The last time this kind of issue came up was when the same 100 people kept complaining about high level loot progression and the lack of endgame dungeons…and then we ended up with Fractals and Ascended Gear.

There’s a huge and potentially valid fear that if a loud minority keeps bringing these topics up, the developers will take notice and make a change based off of these threads despite the fact that the people in support of a change is the minority.

Its best for everyone who doesn’t support a change to just not bring up the topic in fear of the devs messing up again when they try to appeal to the people who already hate the game.

VOLKON.1290:

In order to do that you’d have to redesign… well, pretty much everything, from all the skills and their effects (many of which have more than one element of damage, control and support), you’d have to change to allow targeting allies, you’d have to redesign the entire traits system, etc.

If it ain’t broke… and believe me, it isn’t. It’s surprising how much you can do with what on the surface appears to be a minimal number of skills but in practice is much deeper than that.

Yes, I know it would be very hard and expensive, a total nightmare! (I’m finishing my software engineering). But I’m not asking for a change or something like that it’s just how do you see that concept, only opinion on an idea I had, just that.

Trinity is the most basic, simplistic and now very obsolete concept of teamplay, that is very restrictive and forces everyone into a role.
GW1 lived 8 years without it, save for healers but GW2 removed those too (about time!) and just gave us self heals and abilities to avoid damage.
Better can be done for sure, but it’s already a major step forward for teamplay as now classes don’t matter as much as the player.
If the healer or tank leaves you wipe in traditional MMOs, but in GW2 all it matters is the skill of the people in party – if a baddie leaves you can continue, but if a skilled player leaves you definitely feel the difference.

Skill-based > passive calculated mechanics and pidgeon-holing.

VOLKON.1290:

Stop thinking in terms of “roles” and you’ll be better off. Skills cover various aspects, many with a mix of damage, control and support all tied to them. Look at mesmer focus 4… support allies with a speed boost, control foes with a cripple and even allows for indirect damage when you shatter it and yank enemies off cliffs to their splattery goodness doom. If you start genericizing skills to be damage, control or support then you take away the tactical use of skills and run the risk of turning into an archaic “use off cooldown” type of game.

Instead of trying to play roles, play your skills. Learn what each one does and use it when appropriate. I could use Greatsword 2 off cooldown, for example, or I could hold it a bit until allies are in range so they can get the benefits of the bouncy buffs it gives in addition to the damage it applies. Combat, I’ve found, makes the best sense and really begins to flow smoothly when you forget about a role and instead play your skills based on what they do.

Yeah, it would be great if that actually worked. Throw humans in a group at an objective and the first thing they do is designate roles. I don’t care if it’s a scavenger hunt people will take on specific tasks to get the job done. Or, consider IRL combat. Warfare is not about everyone berzerking on the battle field. Everyone has a role to play in combat and that has been largely true throughout our history. Again, it’s a human thing that we bring to games. Games are created in our image and when they don’t work like we do, trouble ensues—or maybe it’s threads on forums like this one ensue.

Edit: BTW, you already see roles being filled in GW2; just listen to people talking about team composition for playing dungeons—it’s there. Tanking more so than healing as the healing is pretty insignificant at this point. My bet is that roles will become more well-defined and significant over time.

Raine.1394:

Yeah, it would be great if that actually worked. Throw humans in a group at an objective and the first thing they do is designate roles. I don’t care if it’s a scavenger hunt people will take on specific tasks to get the job done. Or, consider IRL combat. Warfare is not about everyone berzerking on the battle field. Everyone has a role to play in combat and that has been largely true throughout our history. Again, it’s a human thing that we bring to games. Games are created in our image and when they don’t work like we do, trouble ensues—or maybe it’s threads on forums like this one ensue.

That’s the way I think. You know I’ve been thinking about a system which involves the best of both sides: roles of holy trinity and versatility of GW2’ system.
Sure thing my system doesn’t have any way to do what GW2 does (being an army of one man) but at least, it solves the problem of… “oh crap, I’ve leveled a healer to max and know I’m tired of healing, I need to level up another char”. With my system you just change your traits and skills and voilá!

So I guess every system has their own weak points, but this conversation is really interesting, at least for me.

Vasham.2408:

I personally can’t wait for the players who would insult anyone who perfers the trinity as “unskilled.” I dare you to go up to a top 100 WoW raiding guild and say that.

Why do we need to talk to a “top 100” raiding guild? Do you have to be in the top 100 in order to be successful at raiding, or does being in the top 100 give you a trivial means to invalidate the very issue (of skill) that we are talking about? “Top” anything implies that they are more skilled than others. It does not say that skill is required to complete the raid, which is all that most players really care about.

Trinity by definition reduces the scope of what each player has to think about and concentrates their responsibilities to the things they are naturally best at doing. Consequently, the game becomes easier for each individual. When the content is designed in such a way, the remaining challenge becomes one of coordination between the different parts of the team, and less the skill of the individual players. You’ll notice that most serious guilds have some sort of voice chat requirement, but have no actual skill test or requirement. That’s not a coincidence.

[quote=1181299;VOLKON.1290:]

Please just go to the hundreds of trinity based games available and play them. Why the one game that is not trinity has to be changed is just mind boggling.

If I wanted a WoW clone I would be playing one.

That’s what I like about the GW2 system instead… scripts are tossed out the window. You’re free to deal with the encounters as you see fit, and there are a myriad amount of ways to do so.

With respect, no there aren’t. Every single fight in GW2 be it a dungeon boss or a group of mobs in Orr or a single deer or stag when you are level 1 and in a starting area are the same. Roll out of red circles (instead of running out of them like in WoW or others), heal yourself or cleanse yourself in time to not run foul of conditions, revive your companions when they are downed and erm…rinse and repeat ad infinitum. Yes there are certain mechanics that must be learnt for some dungeon encounters…but every MMO has this, in fact more so than here to be honest.

Every other game I ever played you get to know people based on their skills, “awesome we got so-and-so tanking…this well go well” kind of thing. Here you are totally anomynous. Even if in other games there are people with “all the gear and no idea”, here there are just people with “all the same gear…may or may not know how to play….at the end of the day doesn’t matter ’cos we can corpse drag through anyway if it all goes wrong”.

The only differences between this and every other single MMO I have ever played are the lack of a specific role to fulfil in groups (which when you really think about it just makes you absolutely unidentifiable from every other single similarly geared player with a brain in their head), the absence of vertical progression (which has and is making many people not bother logging in) and the lack of any real incentives to play beyond 80.

For example, I have three 80’s, on my thief there is absolutely nothing left in the game that I desire to earn either through PvE, PvP or any other game mechanism….thief looks fine and is fully geared for my chosen spec in the what I consider to be the best looking gear. Guardian…hit 80 on it 3 days ago and already there anre only 3 pieces of armor left I want from CoE which I will get within a day or two….nothing left to achieve. Elementalist….hit 80 yesterday, absolutely nothing whatsoever I want, it has the basic exotics with the right stats and I don’t want ANY of the dungeon armor because it’s hideous (in my opinion). Warrior….same armor as Guardian so, erm…meh.

If there was some super cool piece of loot I could only get by repeatedly running fractals, CoF, whatever that actually gave me some benefit in terms of gameplay, looking funkier than you, or just because my kitten means I need to hang around swinging about some sword hardly anyone else (and no, this does not applyto the current legendaries…because even they realistically give you no REAL benefit) has I’m gonna keep grinding.

But when grinding is all about getting crap that everyone else can get with equally as little effort or differentiation (for exotics) or the mind numbing grind and RNG long walk that is getting a legendary that is no no better than an exotic and pretty soon more and more people will have anyway as there is nothing else to do once you have the gear you want….then why bother.

Personally I’m going to get all of my 5 slots to the same place, fully exotic geared lvl 80 within probably the next few weeks and then what am I gonna do? Log off probably.

Which to be honest is a real shame as the world, the graphics, the lore, the ideas are all superb. But the game just doesn’t pander to basic human psychology, and its not even due to the cash shop…because to be honest the cash shop actually doesn’t provide anything great that you can’t earn anyway if you are prepared to wait.

Hope they fix it ‘cos within a short period I’m gonna have 5 geared 80’s waiting for something to do…

To the OP:

I think that the only thing we should ask for is Arena Net doing a better job with educating people how to make a successful healer/tank build (ie. something else then dps). And make them feel their power in other ways then by looking at their damage.

Leablo.2651:

Vasham.2408:

I personally can’t wait for the players who would insult anyone who perfers the trinity as “unskilled.” I dare you to go up to a top 100 WoW raiding guild and say that.

Why do we need to talk to a “top 100” raiding guild? Do you have to be in the top 100 in order to be successful at raiding, or does being in the top 100 give you a trivial means to invalidate the very issue (of skill) that we are talking about? “Top” anything implies that they are more skilled than others. It does not say that skill is required to complete the raid, which is all that most players really care about.

Trinity by definition reduces the scope of what each player has to think about and concentrates their responsibilities to the things they are naturally best at doing. Consequently, the game becomes easier for each individual. When the content is designed in such a way, the remaining challenge becomes one of coordination between the different parts of the team, and less the skill of the individual players. You’ll notice that most serious guilds have some sort of voice chat requirement, but have no actual skill test or requirement. That’s not a coincidence.

I can see you haven’t actually played the trinity, right? If anything, the trinity requires more player skill as you have to manage aggro in addition to damage and health. A tank has to be concerned about their health and actively influences it through skills—he doesn’t simply rely on a healer. A tank uses skills to DPS, heal, mitigate, and to specifically manage aggro. It is the same with DPS and healers—if anything, more to do with the addition of aggro management.

And, you seem to have a problem with the ‘team’ aspects of team play. Team coordination is an aspect of each player’s skill. That it is present speaks to the high skill level of the players involved. It works that way IRL as well.

There is no difference between GW2 and games that rely on the trinity that would suggest that GW2 has or requires a higher skill cap.

The main reason Anet decided to do away with the tank/healer/dps setup is to allow any group of players to do any type of content.

Being a dps class in World of Kittencraft was a pain…because any tank or healer could also dps, but no dps could tank or heal. This led to an imbalance and made it a lot harder to find groups. Not to mention the fact that if 1 person left (the tank), you couldn’t continue whatever raid you were on.

We don’t have that problem in Guild Wars. Any player can join any group.

Now, I won’t say anything on wheter it takes more skill than raiding in WoW. But the fact that the various roles are distributed over the various party members instead of focused in 1 person (i.e. everyone has 1 healing skill instead of 1 healer that has all 5 of them) appeals to me. It’s…different. And even if it isn’t perfect now, you gotta give them credit for having the guts to try something new.

Raine.1394:

There is no difference between GW2 and games that rely on the trinity that would suggest that GW2 has or requires a higher skill cap.

WoW uses rotations (yes, even for healers and tanks). Guild Wars 2 requires you to pick your skills according to what happens on the battlefield.

Raine.1394:

I can see you haven’t actually played the trinity, right? If anything, the trinity requires more player skill as you have to manage aggro in addition to damage and health. A tank has to be concerned about their health and actively influences it through skills—he doesn’t simply rely on a healer. A tank uses skills to DPS, heal, mitigate, and to specifically manage aggro. It is the same with DPS and healers—if anything, more to do with the addition of aggro management.

How is that any different than EVERY character in this game?

Everybody in GW2 has to be concerned with their own health, actively restore it through their own skills, actively avoid it with dodges/aegis/invuln/blinds/weakness and not rely on a healer AT ALL because nobody in the game can refill a health bar in 2 seconds like they can in Trinity games. Everyone uses skills to DPS, heal, mitigate and manage aggro.

Notice that last part: manage aggro

In this game, you need to realize what the aggro mechanic for your current enemy is, you need to know if they’re going to target melee or ranged as a priority, if they’re going to focus on the highest toughness or lowest toughness character and you need to know how they’re going to react to downed players (will they prioritize rezzers over fighters?). You need to know when you’re getting too much aggro in the group and either break combat, lower your DPS, break LOS or even body block off of other members if the incoming damage is non-AoE (which is something that few games even allow for).

If anything, players here have it even rougher because there’s no taunt mechanic so you need to know how to manipulate and observe the other aggro mechanics in play and adjust accordingly.

So in conclusion, EVERY player in the game has to do what a Trinity tank does and then some. And I know what I’m talking about despite the fact that you’re going to just answer with “This guy is so ignorant”.

EDIT: The only thing you can say about this game is that while the total number of responsibilities are higher, the tightness of the encounter difficulty is overall lower. This first batch of encounters is tuned lower than they would be in other games and the number of intelligent mechanics in each encounter is a bit lacking. That’s it. It has nothing to do with difficulty of roles or number of responsibilities.

Look. This game won’t have a trinity, EVER.
That’s the whole idea behind the classes and have been so since development.
Personally I feel happy that you can be so diverse all the time.
And I sure I’m happy I don’t have to see “4/5 LF tank” or “LF2M dps got tank and healer”.

I supose theres a lot of post of this type in the forum, the reason: simply this game broke a basic rule for others morrpgs, the trinity tank/dps/healer.
What trinity does is give the players a couple of options of what they do becasue of their role, that facilitate players what they need to do and facilitate deseigners what they need to create, basicaly it limit the freedom offered to the player and doing so the work of the deseigner becomes easier they can create e more complex content but in base of the restraints that roles give. Thats the fundation of trinity sistem.

The problem come when instead of a “usual” ( the player who like to heal , tank or do damage but dont like to preocuapate for the others options), you get a player that for example like to go steathy, face enemies for the back, check and take care of his survival (via blocking, dodging,etc) and of course killing the opponent: result your player like to check all, of course theres a great difference between that player and a “role” player, a healer check his life and the life of his comapaninons dont see how much damage a boss receive (hoy the fight goes yes), not what condition the boss have , what is working, what not, etc, same he doesnt preocupated for agro. Well the result is very obvius you need to concentrate in less things with trinity, the more flexibility and less restriction a game give the more factor you need to take in count, for example in my case (mesmer):

Distance , damage for every skill and for every type of enemy, my bleeding stacks, the special abilities of my opponent (i solo, so sometimes my opponenets are legendary class), the quantity of my illusions, how many are clones or phantoms, what phantoms, if i spawn my switching sword clon, where is him, the life of my illusions and they positions, what illusions fight what,my life, conditions and boons (like if i have a extra block via my seal of inspiration), i check them in the number of stacks and how much duration seems to be in the icon (you can notice it not only of what part of the icon is the duration line but also how fastor slow it moves), i check the proximities of my oppoonents to my illusions in comparison to mine (as you all now distance is a agro factor in this game), i need to calculate how much a illusion will live and their position when they are hit and die so that the boss is for example giving me his back when he kill a mobb, and of course i use the distance that the boss move for hitting a illusiion (like my berserker phantom who spin around and go a litle far for melee so is extra good for melee targets) and moving to them (and far of me, normally i make more distance moving out of him in the process), i need to know when to use a skill, for example is better to use the 2nd sword skill when you cant evade a hit or between evades (that depends a lot of the expected atacks a enemy can do) also the switching to greatsword, when use a atack that need my character to not move (3rd one of greatsword is an example). Also in groups i need to check the positions of my allies, how have agro of what, their range, the skills they use their health, conditions and boons they have or give to enemies, some times if a ally have low life i can activiate my inspiration seal if i have regeneration (and in the same time protection for traits) and give them it. if me or someone receive proyectiles i use my focus first skill to reflect proyectiels (not all, focus screens height isnt tall), same if some enemy is chasing me or other, ally i use that skill to make them slower and make my allies faster (and believe it helps a lot when you are running, escaping, gonna enter stealth , etc), also i use that skill and the 5th one of the greatsworsd to pull enemies out of me or my allies, if they are near and low health or dont have distortion, dodge or my 2nd sword power at hand, or without of blink,or i dont have my swirtching clone active or witha proper target (not the mob that is gonna hurt me), if im not with a weapon that have a block skill (im doing a big example of some of the things- me a regular solo class player do, in fact i change weapons very often lol) or im ressing someone (and i put the 1st foucs skill before just in case), in fact i checkthe damaqge i recieve what atacks make what and their animation for every enemy, if im with guildies that are still beggining i check what they do including if they dodge in the animations (sorry i dont like to explain the animations at first, only if is crucial or they dont notice). In fact i check more things, use more skills, weapons and of course i use in more forms the skills i described here, but im going out of the point for this example so:

The point is very simple the concentration a player use without a role restriction is bigger, and what you can reach in terms of skills (like soling) is bigger of course but needs even more concetration. Same with the number of variation, more variationmeans more complex bosses and dinamics. So isnt only that you requiere more concentratrion but in order to use the flexible system apropiatly they need to do more work and testing in every boss, encounter, etc in game. That means more variety, more fun and not be limited, except if you are limiting your concentration in that case a simplier system can be better for you.

Shamefully this ends always about skills because the more options, you need more of 4 factors that rules in players skills (concentration, imagination, coordination and reflexs) end as the restriction to the proper use of a much more flexible and free sistem like this (like when you pass stealthy half a dungeon but someone die beceuse hes not good at running, etc for surviving). And thats why it always can end in a conversation about skills. And of course the normal rule is that if you cant run pass a bunch of enemies (and some people cant, and all class can if they are proper used) then it means is not a option for you, same go if you like to press a serie of bottoms, you are losing the proper situational use of the skills (since they tend to have more than 5 use), or if you dont imaginate and never see for example something that easily as the i can use time warp to ress faster… Well the fact is that a lot of game encounters can be even more complexs and that would be great, same with coordination (still dwayna priest in arah path 4 isnt difficult or bugged but people hate it…)

The complexity this system give have to types of problems: unskilled players and not enought design, if its true guild wars 2 can be a better game but the reality (notable in forums for people asking nerfs) is that part of the game populationthat isnt capable of using the game properly (speacially thinking in a game isnt frequent lol) as a result the limits they see are they been unskilled or blocking their minds trying to mantain a trinity that only limit what they can do and their playing experience (that means instead of limited skills they have a fixed idea that dont let them sucess…)

In case someone said that thing about top raiding guilds:Top raiding guilds requisits are: a very high equipment, voice chat, and a fabulous addon that make you not need to worry about animation or times because it will said you when the boss atack, etc. -if you hasnt notice that means that it limit even more what you need to do , and of course your concentration; and prevents you before time, limiting the reflects you need, meaning your skill level can be bad (no high perception, concentration and reflex are required).
Next comes: fight are probed in betas, and also the: we did it and someone explain: means if theres a trick you dont need to discover it we do before launch or someone alredy know, or internet have it (forget thinking and imagination)
Lately the alredy discused trinity, that limitated necesary concentration, imaginataion, thinking and reflex).

So lets move on, eliminate that fixed idea, if you arent up to the chagenge go to easy parts, ask for easy levels of dungeons , become better (we all learn) and if you have problems with concentration i hope you search help lol or train it, believe me have a perfect score in RV and RM and be good in sports help.

Lets focus things in: make something more chagenging please devs!!!!.

Sorry for my bad english it isnt even my third languege lol.

ThiBash.5634:

The main reason Anet decided to do away with the tank/healer/dps setup is to allow any group of players to do any type of content.

For that reason, I thought my system like with any profession you can be control, dps or support just choosing the correct trait line and utility skills. That way, if you get tired of only dpsing bosses and you cant to control them, you just change traits and use other skills.

Right now, the gameplay is.. no matter what build you bring, you only need to know the basics and, for example, how to kill that boss in the dungeon run we are going to do.

Anyway, I’m not telling that this is bad. It’s only different. Because of that I repeat again: this topic is not to ask ArenaNet to change anything, it’s only discussion about the current system vs other systems that people imagine (I saw a few posters there that told me to not ask something to AN, which is exactly what I’m not doing ).

Lucius.2140:

So lets move on, eliminate that fixed idea, if you arent up to the chagenge go to easy parts, ask for easy levels of dungeons , become better (we all learn) and if you have problems with concentration i hope you search help lol or train it, believe me have a perfect score in RV and RM and be good in sports help.

I’ve read your whole posts and your points seems to be pretty valid and well argumented. We need more posts like yours, seriously.
Anyway, I quoted this because I have something to say about the topic you speak of there: in my personal experience (maybe I’m wrong, who knows?), it’s totally the opposite…. dungeons are extremely easy to complete. Lupicus for example is very challenging and some others but the difficult they have is inherent of the boss mechanic but it’s not difficult because of the build and gameplay you have.

Let me explain better: I’ve done every path in every dungeon at least once (I’ve completed some dungeons several times) and I never had troubles. I did some paths with RL friends with TeamSpeak and some other with random people I encountered at the entrance. The fact is, you only need to be good kiting with dodges and knowing what to do in the boss encounter, but you don’t really need to know very well your class to do complete it. If you just spam skills, you will still complete it no matter what.
In the holy trinity method, for example, a tank need to know how to aggro properly, dps need to how not to aggro same has healers.

I totally agree with you that GW2 has a unique feeling that any MMO has: reflexes.
Sometimes if you dont time well your dodges or you just spam them, you are kittened.
That’s pretty cool, but beyond that the game is not challenging and the sense of building a team and knowing them is simply lost.

The same goes for the leveling side of PvE. You just don’t need anybody to do something. You can go alone all the way to Orr and only there, make a team and go kill Zhaitan.
Again this is not bad, if someday you just don’t want to meet people you can go alone.
But it isn’t good, because the game itself is less social.

I think both systems have their pros and their cons, that’s pretty obvious.
Anyway, I’m having so much fun with this debate. You guys have some nice ideas and arguments there that I never thought.

I’m sure everyone that’s bothered to play more than an hour of GW2 would agree that not having the trinity is perfectly ok. However, what we have is not up to par. The trinity has its flaws, and successes- every bit as much as what the GW2 system has.

But…with this system, we will be forever pigeon-holed into repetitious and ultimately uninteresting content for the entirety of the game’s life because instead of focusing on strategy, we all get the pleasure of keeping ourselves alive through a mindnumbingly simple choice of dodge or heal. Random aggro (and frustratingly not so random) makes it so that kiting is a staple to every boss, large or small… I could go on on and on about how every single person is going to get bored of it eventually…. Sadly for me, I figured it out very soon, and am very much bored with it.

I DO NOT want a trinity. I do want the option of specified roles though. It would break nothing in the original premise of GW2 class design. Implement a soft trinity-style combat, but give every single class the ability to tank, dps, heal, or dabble a little in everything.

Most of all, this is an MMORPG. We came to GW2 because it was beautiful and it had something of a unique character. We play MMOs because we want to create something completely unique with our own design. Giving us a huge list of options and basically telling us “well this is how this is gonna go” with the combat system kind of kills the immersion. I find myself having a much easier time slipping into a fantasy role with my character if I know I have something to dedicate myself to and so that everyone else can see that about me.

I know all of you persistent haters pretty much have a copy/paste ready for threads/posts like these, but with the growing number of them, it’s obvious that our (vocal minority) is growing. Be assured that I for one consider everyone’s opinions and wants behind new ideas, and I encourage you to do the same.

Omega.1473:

Raine.1394:

I can see you haven’t actually played the trinity, right? If anything, the trinity requires more player skill as you have to manage aggro in addition to damage and health. A tank has to be concerned about their health and actively influences it through skills—he doesn’t simply rely on a healer. A tank uses skills to DPS, heal, mitigate, and to specifically manage aggro. It is the same with DPS and healers—if anything, more to do with the addition of aggro management.

How is that any different than EVERY character in this game?

Everybody in GW2 has to be concerned with their own health, actively restore it through their own skills, actively avoid it with dodges/aegis/invuln/blinds/weakness and not rely on a healer AT ALL because nobody in the game can refill a health bar in 2 seconds like they can in Trinity games. Everyone uses skills to DPS, heal, mitigate and manage aggro.

Notice that last part: manage aggro

In this game, you need to realize what the aggro mechanic for your current enemy is, you need to know if they’re going to target melee or ranged as a priority, if they’re going to focus on the highest toughness or lowest toughness character and you need to know how they’re going to react to downed players (will they prioritize rezzers over fighters?). You need to know when you’re getting too much aggro in the group and either break combat, lower your DPS, break LOS or even body block off of other members if the incoming damage is non-AoE (which is something that few games even allow for).

If anything, players here have it even rougher because there’s no taunt mechanic so you need to know how to manipulate and observe the other aggro mechanics in play and adjust accordingly.

So in conclusion, EVERY player in the game has to do what a Trinity tank does and then some. And I know what I’m talking about despite the fact that you’re going to just answer with “This guy is so ignorant”.

EDIT: The only thing you can say about this game is that while the total number of responsibilities are higher, the tightness of the encounter difficulty is overall lower. This first batch of encounters is tuned lower than they would be in other games and the number of intelligent mechanics in each encounter is a bit lacking. That’s it. It has nothing to do with difficulty of roles or number of responsibilities.

I never answer with “This guy is so ignorant”. In reading your response I didn’t find any skills (player or game) employed in GW2 that don’t have a mirror skill in games that use the trinity. I suggested that under the trinity all players manage aggro with skills (and behavior) that have no corresponding skill set in GW2. You mentioned the taunt for tanks. There are also skills that redirect or drop aggro for use by dps and healers. That’s why everyone in a raid in WoW has Omen and only those who are tanks should be at the top. Yes, while aggro continues to be a mystery over all in GW2 there are predictable mechanics employed by various bosses. The same holds true in trinity games. You need to know the fight, ideally before you attempt it.

So, I don’t believe that the responsibilities are higher in GW2. Everyone playing in the trinity system manages all the same aspects of the fight that a GW2 player does, again, with the addition of specific aggro management skills. If you want me to believe that GW2 has the higher skill cap, provide a bulleted list of skills that the GW2 player performs that the trinity player does not.

Edit: BTW, I used the tank example originally to suggest that the tank was ‘managing’ his or her health. Just because the healer should be healing hard on the tank, the tank employed skills to manage their health. The same goes for DPS but they are lower on the healers priority list. Everyone under the trinity has skills/potions for and manages their health. The all have skills similar to a tank for damage avoidence or mitigation. Everyone must be aware of and actively manage all aspects of gameplay under the trinity. Those who think it simplifies combat somehow have obviously never played it.

ThiBash.5634:

The main reason Anet decided to do away with the tank/healer/dps setup is to allow any group of players to do any type of content.

Being a dps class in World of Kittencraft was a pain…because any tank or healer could also dps, but no dps could tank or heal. This led to an imbalance and made it a lot harder to find groups. Not to mention the fact that if 1 person left (the tank), you couldn’t continue whatever raid you were on.

We don’t have that problem in Guild Wars. Any player can join any group.

Now, I won’t say anything on wheter it takes more skill than raiding in WoW. But the fact that the various roles are distributed over the various party members instead of focused in 1 person (i.e. everyone has 1 healing skill instead of 1 healer that has all 5 of them) appeals to me. It’s…different. And even if it isn’t perfect now, you gotta give them credit for having the guts to try something new.

Raine.1394:

There is no difference between GW2 and games that rely on the trinity that would suggest that GW2 has or requires a higher skill cap.

WoW uses rotations (yes, even for healers and tanks). Guild Wars 2 requires you to pick your skills according to what happens on the battlefield.

No difference really in the terms of the use of skills. Most games now have a priority based rotation, you use your most damaging skills on CD. Additionally, you use skills like CC as needed. WoW gives you many more skills to choose from, but essentially you are responding to the flow of battle and putting out the most damage possible. There is nothing about GW2 that is essentially different or would indicate or require a higher skill cap.

Raine.1394:

VOLKON.1290:

Stop thinking in terms of “roles” and you’ll be better off. Skills cover various aspects, many with a mix of damage, control and support all tied to them. Look at mesmer focus 4… support allies with a speed boost, control foes with a cripple and even allows for indirect damage when you shatter it and yank enemies off cliffs to their splattery goodness doom. If you start genericizing skills to be damage, control or support then you take away the tactical use of skills and run the risk of turning into an archaic “use off cooldown” type of game.

Instead of trying to play roles, play your skills. Learn what each one does and use it when appropriate. I could use Greatsword 2 off cooldown, for example, or I could hold it a bit until allies are in range so they can get the benefits of the bouncy buffs it gives in addition to the damage it applies. Combat, I’ve found, makes the best sense and really begins to flow smoothly when you forget about a role and instead play your skills based on what they do.

Yeah, it would be great if that actually worked. Throw humans in a group at an objective and the first thing they do is designate roles. I don’t care if it’s a scavenger hunt people will take on specific tasks to get the job done. Or, consider IRL combat. Warfare is not about everyone berzerking on the battle field. Everyone has a role to play in combat and that has been largely true throughout our history. Again, it’s a human thing that we bring to games. Games are created in our image and when they don’t work like we do, trouble ensues—or maybe it’s threads on forums like this one ensue.

Edit: BTW, you already see roles being filled in GW2; just listen to people talking about team composition for playing dungeons—it’s there. Tanking more so than healing as the healing is pretty insignificant at this point. My bet is that roles will become more well-defined and significant over time.

For the part a group of human on an objective and each one have their own role is correct i give you that. But trinity does not being the correct answer to this human nature.

Trinity by default defined a combat role of each class permanently, this created a differences between classes. A group of human are not fixed class, they can learn and improve in different role aspect. For example today this soldier is an engineer, so he kept his smg and help out all the mechanics issue (support) in the squad. But if the machines are all broke down, enemies are flooding, he can drop his smg, pick up
a machine gun and do suppressing (tank)! In this situation he is no longer an engineer but a gunner instead, maybe he is not as skill as the squad gunner but with the correct weapon and basic training, he should be a qualified gunner as well.

What trinity is wrong about is classes is designed under trinity role by default, if a class is designed to be a dps, the class is automatic bound to his dps role, skill and stat are good to do dps but terrible lacking in other role (tank and heal), on my squad case above, the engineer can only do mechanical stuff, he cannot pick up a machine gun to fight off the foes, even the gunner is dead….

Trinity is like feudalism, a class is born with the trinity role and if you don’t follow the preset role to build the class, you are either called noob or gimped yourself. I like GW2 the way that each class has wider range to build rather than a fixed role in trinity.

Ithir Darkleaf.7923, yeah they are easy but we have to many people complaining about its to hard, and so litle people asking for it to be more difficult, lamely one of the causes is the trinity thinking…
Anywat ty for reading all my posts lol.

I’m just gonna say…I absolutely love how ArcheAge solves the whole issue. 120 playable classes, creating the character you want to play the exact way you want…

Lucius.2140:

Ithir Darkleaf.7923, yeah they are easy but we have to many people complaining about its to hard, and so litle people asking for it to be more difficult, lamely one of the causes is the trinity thinking…
Anywat ty for reading all my posts lol.

It was an interesting reading dude
About the difficult issue, I have to say that every other MMO I have played (WoW, WAR, AoC, Aion and GW1) were more difficult. I know Guild Wars 2 has a big focus on casual players, which is great. Leveling side of the PvE is a huge improvement vs traditional MMOs but endgame being too easy, it’s not a challenge.
I remember GW1 very well, before EotN and the fast runs, Anguish was extremely challenging and the rewards were very cool. I really miss that on GW2

One of the reasons (in fact, the sole reason) my friend Lauren stopped playing WoW was that the artificially-designated ‘roles’ limited her usefulness in higher-level content.

To be an effective (insert class/role here) in a game like WoW, you need the right gear — but you can’t get the right gear unless you run the right dungeons. You can’t run the right dungeons without the right group, and you can’t find the right group because nobody will even so much as glance at you if you don’t have the right gear.

Guild Wars 2 cuts out the middleman — the gear you’ve got is ‘the right gear’ for almost any dungeon, any class can perform (almost) any role, to varying degrees of effectiveness, and you don’t need to spend four hours looking for a healer because everyone can heal.

Vasham.2408:

I personally can’t wait for the players who would insult anyone who perfers the trinity as “unskilled.” I dare you to go up to a top 100 WoW raiding guild and say that.

Many discussions start with the statement that not having the trinity requires no skill. Neither, imo, is true. Monsters and raids with lacking game mechanics lead to “unskilled” boring boss zerging independent of the trinity.

I am yet waiting for a good argument why formal roles is more interesting than emerging roles. I can again name all the disadvantages of the trinity and I tell you how not having the trinity is so core to the design of GW2 that people can jump up and down and dance beautifully like an Asura, this game will not have the trinity.

VOLKON.1290:

Vasham.2408:

I personally can’t wait for the players who would insult anyone who perfers the trinity as “unskilled.” I dare you to go up to a top 100 WoW raiding guild and say that.

The problem with using WoW raids as a base to determine skill is that they’re nothing more than scripted events. When a new raid is made, the “top” guilds get to beta test the raid. They’re also given the script on how to fight that particular fight. Tanks do this, dps avoid that, etc. Once they’ve mastered the script, they create videos to tell the rest of the community exactly how to do the fight. The only skill they really have is skill at following a script. When I was playing (pre-Cata), tanking was going to the right place and doing my 9-6-9 rotation, occasionally using a taunt if an add broke loose or whatever. At predetermined (and loudly alarmed) moments I may need to add in an additional mitigation skill… that was pretty much it. On my hunter, go there, start rotation. Alarm sounds, next line in the script.

That’s what I like about the GW2 system instead… scripts are tossed out the window. You’re free to deal with the encounters as you see fit, and there are a myriad amount of ways to do so. I do what needs to be done, not what the script tells me I need to do next.

Lol so you think GW2 doesn’t have scripted fights, that’s cute.

Anyway let’s see your 25m heroic raid boss kills since, after all, all you need to get them is following a simple scripted fight.

Don’t get confused because your team carried you through a normal 10man

Galrenmar.7025:

One of the reasons (in fact, the sole reason) my friend Lauren stopped playing WoW was that the artificially-designated ‘roles’ limited her usefulness in higher-level content.

To be an effective (insert class/role here) in a game like WoW, you need the right gear — but you can’t get the right gear unless you run the right dungeons. You can’t run the right dungeons without the right group, and you can’t find the right group because nobody will even so much as glance at you if you don’t have the right gear.

Guild Wars 2 cuts out the middleman — the gear you’ve got is ‘the right gear’ for almost any dungeon, any class can perform (almost) any role, to varying degrees of effectiveness, and you don’t need to spend four hours looking for a healer because everyone can heal.

You do realize your argument against artificial ‘roles’ is because it was hard to get the right gear? The two concepts are not really related at all. To fulfill the GW2 roles you need different gear as well. A support Guardian with anything near significant healing is not going to have the same gear as a damage focused one. You are factually incorrect as well. It never took any time to look for a healer. Hundreds of dungeons here and I never once looked for a healer. There was a lfg tool for instances that did all the work. Yes, healers insta-queued. Us poor DPS had to wait 3-10. I understood why tanks and healers queued instantly and it was never an issue. With an lfg and the trinity you spend far less time waiting than you do waiting for the right fractal level or people to be available for the dungeon you want. Let that fact soak in. Far less “queue” time with the trinity than with GW2.

BTW, I’m not supporting the addition of the trinity to GW2. I’m supporting a rational, factually correct discussion of the roles that do exist in games. I do believe that roles are a natural part of any human group. Check out a football team, army, operating room, or any scavenger hunt. The first thing humans do is designate roles. Games are created in our image and that is why roles exist in games. GW2 has them as well. The problem with GW2 roles, imo, is that they are not significant within their designated function.

Crossaber.8934:

For the part a group of human on an objective and each one have their own role is correct i give you that. But trinity does not being the correct answer to this human nature.

Trinity by default defined a combat role of each class permanently, this created a differences between classes. A group of human are not fixed class, they can learn and improve in different role aspect. For example today this soldier is an engineer, so he kept his smg and help out all the mechanics issue (support) in the squad. But if the machines are all broke down, enemies are flooding, he can drop his smg, pick up
a machine gun and do suppressing (tank)! In this situation he is no longer an engineer but a gunner instead, maybe he is not as skill as the squad gunner but with the correct weapon and basic training, he should be a qualified gunner as well.

What trinity is wrong about is classes is designed under trinity role by default, if a class is designed to be a dps, the class is automatic bound to his dps role, skill and stat are good to do dps but terrible lacking in other role (tank and heal), on my squad case above, the engineer can only do mechanical stuff, he cannot pick up a machine gun to fight off the foes, even the gunner is dead….

Trinity is like feudalism, a class is born with the trinity role and if you don’t follow the preset role to build the class, you are either called noob or gimped yourself. I like GW2 the way that each class has wider range to build rather than a fixed role in trinity.

Classes under the trinity are not designed around a particular role. A warrior has three builds available, one of them is tank, two of them are dps. They are not permanent; they can be changed just the same as in GW2. And, being a tank doesn’t mean you don’t do damage or heal. One of my most unforgettable dungeon moments was watching a masterful DK tank almost bring down a boss alone after the group wiped. He was tanking, dpsing, and healing, all by himself. Another 20 seconds and he would have done it. Changing traits and gear to fulfill different GW2 approved roles is exactly the same as what you have under the trinity. Again, classes under the trinity are not designed around roles. There are simply roles available through builds exactly the same as it is in GW2. The distinction is that roles are significant under the trinity. Heals are significant, aggro is managed.

Raine.1394:

With an lfg and the trinity you spend far less time waiting than you do waiting for the right fractal level or people to be available for the dungeon you want. Let that fact soak in. Far less “queue” time with the trinity than with GW2.

Take that same queue system and put it here and you’d end up with ZERO queue time for everyone because there would be no set role requirements for filling each spot.

Its only shorter because there’s an automated system. You have to realize that you’re making a false argument here. Please tell me you’re not so lost in your own discussion that you don’t realize how dumb what you said was.

This is a features issue, not a class design issue.

VOLKON.1290:

Vasham.2408:

I personally can’t wait for the players who would insult anyone who perfers the trinity as “unskilled.” I dare you to go up to a top 100 WoW raiding guild and say that.

The problem with using WoW raids as a base to determine skill is that they’re nothing more than scripted events. When a new raid is made, the “top” guilds get to beta test the raid. They’re also given the script on how to fight that particular fight. Tanks do this, dps avoid that, etc. Once they’ve mastered the script, they create videos to tell the rest of the community exactly how to do the fight. The only skill they really have is skill at following a script. When I was playing (pre-Cata), tanking was going to the right place and doing my 9-6-9 rotation, occasionally using a taunt if an add broke loose or whatever. At predetermined (and loudly alarmed) moments I may need to add in an additional mitigation skill… that was pretty much it. On my hunter, go there, start rotation. Alarm sounds, next line in the script.

That’s what I like about the GW2 system instead… scripts are tossed out the window. You’re free to deal with the encounters as you see fit, and there are a myriad amount of ways to do so. I do what needs to be done, not what the script tells me I need to do next.

This right here, I’ve never been able to say it like this but this is exactly the issue
scripted content is boring and requires next to no skill at all, you’re more like a borg drone following directions. in GW2 no 2 encounters are the same or are fought in the same manner.

Also, roles in gw2 are working as intended.
the problem is puggers don’t really care to ask the fundamental questions after the party has been formed.

1 – who will take care of support?
2 – who will take care of control?
3 – who is going to dps?

these 3 questions solve a lot of issues, shortcomings and wipes.
if you do not ask you end up with 5 dps !

Raine.1394:

Classes under the trinity are not designed around a particular role.

Yes they are and you proved it in your post.

Let me ask you this: did Blizzard take the Warrior and say “What cool skills would a Warrior have?” and leave it at that? No, they tuned 3 trees and balanced them with a specific role in mind for each one. They designed the Protection tree with tanking in mind and laid out the setup so that you had to invest heavily in that tree so that you could perform a role which they then designed endgame encounters around. Its artificial and intentional.

The same thing was done in SWTOR. Each class had their 3 trees and each one had a specific role it was designed for and balanced directly against the respective specs of other classes. Then encounters were designed with the assumption that these roles would be fulfilled with one of those rigid specs.

Yes, you had options. But your options are “Do I want to Tank, Heal or DPS” and that’s only for certain classes that could do all 3. Your options weren’t “Do I want to spec for some condition damage with a bit of toughness to allow me to survive” or “Do I want to spec with Runes of Altruism, run with a Warhorn and full shouts to buff but still carry a Greatsword in my offslot for some quick burst damage”. The lack of roles allows so many more shades of gray in between the roles that allows you to run however you’d like.

The trinity doesn’t allow those shades of gray. If your role is “tank” and you’re not specced to be an ideal tank, you’re a hindrance to your team. If you’re specced for DPS and you’re not putting out optimal dps, you’re a hindrance to your team. Here that’s not true because every shade of gray between the roles still bring something.

Omega.1473:

Raine.1394:

With an lfg and the trinity you spend far less time waiting than you do waiting for the right fractal level or people to be available for the dungeon you want. Let that fact soak in. Far less “queue” time with the trinity than with GW2.

Take that same queue system and put it here and you’d end up with ZERO queue time for everyone because there would be no set role requirements for filling each spot.

Its only shorter because there’s an automated system. You have to realize that you’re making a false argument here. Please tell me you’re not so lost in your own discussion that you don’t realize how dumb what you said was.

This is a features issue, not a class design issue.

No, I’m not making a false argument. It’s factually correct. If you read my post, I was responding to a factually incorrect complaint about having to look for a healer. With an lfg tool, you never had to look for a healer. And, “queue” time is currently longer in GW2 than anything I experienced with the trinity. With a lfg tool in GW2 you are still going to have queue times. Consider fractal levels and people wanting to do a given dungeon in a given mode at any given moment. It will be faster than if GW2 had the trinity, certainly. Queue time just was never an issue for me under the trinity and it gets blown out of proportion.

moirweyn.9872:

The alternative to the current system exists in every other fantasy MMO out there. I used to DJ some time ago and patrons would come up to me for requests, “Can you play some Nine Inch Nails?”, “Sure, what song did you have in mind?”, “Can you play Closer?”, “I can but I won’t and here’s why. Every other club you go to will play that exact same NiN song every night, everyone else plays that same song. We’re not everyone else. I’ll play NiN for you, but it’s gonna be a different song.” It was, until I stopped doing it, the busiest club in the scene for 5 years.

GW2 is not every other MMO, stop trying to make it like every other MMO because that is what you are used to playing.

It’s not because you have 2 cars, that they are the same… we don’t want a wow clone, i find that game so boring, still GW1 had a trinity, but that game was so good. I think we need to bring back deck-building instead of looking for a trinity system first.

Latinkuro.9420:

Also, roles in gw2 are working as intended.
the problem is puggers don’t really care to ask the fundamental questions after the party has been formed.

1 – who will take care of support?
2 – who will take care of control?
3 – who is going to dps?

these 3 questions solve a lot of issues, shortcomings and wipes.
if you do not ask you end up with 5 dps !

Just go 5 dps, way faster, you won’t wipe if you know how to play.

Omega.1473:

Raine.1394:

Classes under the trinity are not designed around a particular role.

Yes they are and you proved it in your post.

Let me ask you this: did Blizzard take the Warrior and say “What cool skills would a Warrior have?” and leave it at that? No, they tuned 3 trees and balanced them with a specific role in mind for each one. They designed the Protection tree with tanking in mind and laid out the setup so that you had to invest heavily in that tree so that you could perform a role which they then designed endgame encounters around. Its artificial and intentional.

The same thing was done in SWTOR. Each class had their 3 trees and each one had a specific role it was designed for and balanced directly against the respective specs of other classes. Then encounters were designed with the assumption that these roles would be fulfilled with one of those rigid specs.

Yes, you had options. But your options are “Do I want to Tank, Heal or DPS” and that’s only for certain classes that could do all 3. Your options weren’t “Do I want to spec for some condition damage with a bit of toughness to allow me to survive” or “Do I want to spec with Runes of Altruism, run with a Warhorn and full shouts to buff but still carry a Greatsword in my offslot for some quick burst damage”. The lack of roles allows so many more shades of gray in between the roles that allows you to run however you’d like.

The trinity doesn’t allow those shades of gray. If your role is “tank” and you’re not specced to be an ideal tank, you’re a hindrance to your team. If you’re specced for DPS and you’re not putting out optimal dps, you’re a hindrance to your team. Here that’s not true because every shade of gray between the roles still bring something.

GW2 has 5 trait lines. You choose the role you want to play in GW2 by choosing your build, weapons, traits, and gear, exactly the same as under the trinity. The question you are asking in GW2 is do I want to focus on damage, support, or control. What you call shades of grey I am calling insignificant function within a designated role.

To add fuel to this discussion, what about those that insist trinity exists in this game? Those people that would say in a world event, or dungeon “Let me pull”. I had an argument with someone in map chat a few days ago when, at the start of a world event, he said “let me pull”. I pointed out to him that theres no such thing as a true tank in this game, and no healer to keep you alive.

Long story short, there are people that still insist that there is a trinity, that they can build their character via stats and trait lines to be as tanky as they want. You will not convince these people otherwise.

Then there are people that think the trinity was replaced with something else: Control, Support, Damage. A little less tanky, more movement and damage control. A little less healy, and more support via boons and heals.

Then there are those of us that think that people can build their character however they want, but do not expect to sit in the back and launch heals or condition removals…or sit in front of the boss and soak damage.

Thoughts on this?

CoRtex.2157:

Latinkuro.9420:

Also, roles in gw2 are working as intended.
the problem is puggers don’t really care to ask the fundamental questions after the party has been formed.

1 – who will take care of support?
2 – who will take care of control?
3 – who is going to dps?

these 3 questions solve a lot of issues, shortcomings and wipes.
if you do not ask you end up with 5 dps !

Just go 5 dps, way faster, you won’t wipe if you know how to play.

tell that to all the people that keep wiping, come to the forums to complain and ask for the stupid trinity to be implemented.

cesmode.4257:

To add fuel to this discussion, what about those that insist trinity exists in this game? Those people that would say in a world event, or dungeon “Let me pull”. I had an argument with someone in map chat a few days ago when, at the start of a world event, he said “let me pull”. I pointed out to him that theres no such thing as a true tank in this game, and no healer to keep you alive.

Long story short, there are people that still insist that there is a trinity, that they can build their character via stats and trait lines to be as tanky as they want. You will not convince these people otherwise.

Then there are people that think the trinity was replaced with something else: Control, Support, Damage. A little less tanky, more movement and damage control. A little less healy, and more support via boons and heals.

Then there are those of us that think that people can build their character however they want, but do not expect to sit in the back and launch heals or condition removals…or sit in front of the boss and soak damage.

Thoughts on this?

I think that roles exist in this game. Anet has defined them and made different builds and gear possible to fulfill them. From time to time I see requests in map chat for a specific build-type within a profession so people are thinking about roles in terms of team composition. I think that was the intent in having roles. You are absolutely correct that there is no tanking (no aggro management) and no significant healing as a designated role. I don’t support the trinity, per se, just that fact that roles within groups are a natural human phenomenon and that they should feel significant. In team play roles should be significant enough to rely upon them for their function; otherwise they won’t feel significant. I think that’s what you are seeing in threads like this one. It’s not that GW2 is a different kind of MMO; people are saying that a feature of this different MMO doesn’t feel quite right from a human perspective, not a trinity perspective.