Guild Wars 2

Rukia.4802:

VOLKON.1290:

Vasham.2408:

I personally can’t wait for the players who would insult anyone who perfers the trinity as “unskilled.” I dare you to go up to a top 100 WoW raiding guild and say that.

The problem with using WoW raids as a base to determine skill is that they’re nothing more than scripted events. When a new raid is made, the “top” guilds get to beta test the raid. They’re also given the script on how to fight that particular fight. Tanks do this, dps avoid that, etc. Once they’ve mastered the script, they create videos to tell the rest of the community exactly how to do the fight. The only skill they really have is skill at following a script. When I was playing (pre-Cata), tanking was going to the right place and doing my 9-6-9 rotation, occasionally using a taunt if an add broke loose or whatever. At predetermined (and loudly alarmed) moments I may need to add in an additional mitigation skill… that was pretty much it. On my hunter, go there, start rotation. Alarm sounds, next line in the script.

That’s what I like about the GW2 system instead… scripts are tossed out the window. You’re free to deal with the encounters as you see fit, and there are a myriad amount of ways to do so. I do what needs to be done, not what the script tells me I need to do next.

Lol so you think GW2 doesn’t have scripted fights, that’s cute.

Anyway let’s see your 25m heroic raid boss kills since, after all, all you need to get them is following a simple scripted fight.

Don’t get confused because your team carried you through a normal 10man

Carried? As much as a main tank gets carried, I suppose you could say I was. 9-6-9 baby!

Anyhow, interesting way to divert from the point. In trinity systems the raids are built to require a set number of tanks, healers and dps. They’re also, in WoW sense at least, built to a script. You follow the script or you fail. If the tanks don’t follow the script, fail. If the dps doesn’t follow the script, fail. Even healers are stuck in script mode.

The nice thing with GW2 is you don’t have those set scripts. You’re allowed to bring whatever varied mix you wish, and within the interactions of that mix come up with a solution. Sure, the bosses may have predictable behavior in many cases. Take… who is it… Aidan? Yeah… he starts in the middle, ports to the outer edge, back to the middle, back to the outer edge for the finale. But even though you know what he’s going to do you won’t have every party reacting in the exact same way to counter it. Five mesmers will get through the encounter in a completely different way than five warriors or any mix of professions. That’s what I’m talking about regarding “scripted” or not… not whether or not the boss is predictable, but whether or not the players are required to follow a script to succeed. In WoW, you’re not a hunter, a warlock and a mage in the group for the most part. You’re dps. Period. It doesn’t matter what class is tanking, you’re a tank, period. You go where the tank is scripted to go and to tanky things according to the script. None of the player scripting is in GW2… you’re free to tackle the encounter as you see fit.

cesmode.4257:

To add fuel to this discussion, what about those that insist trinity exists in this game? Those people that would say in a world event, or dungeon “Let me pull”. I had an argument with someone in map chat a few days ago when, at the start of a world event, he said “let me pull”. I pointed out to him that theres no such thing as a true tank in this game, and no healer to keep you alive.

Pulling =/= tanking. And some people are better at judging aggro range and pulling the right (amount of) mobs. If there were 3 people and 50 mobs, the guy who’s confident that he can pull only 10 of those would naturally want to do it instead of watching smb ram themselves on the 50 mobs and get everybody killed…

Long story short, there are people that still insist that there is a trinity, that they can build their character via stats and trait lines to be as tanky as they want. You will not convince these people otherwise.

Tanky =/= tanking. Aggro control is the defining characteristic of a tank. It also doesn’t exist in GW2. Being tanky is a bonus cookie that helps you deal with said aggro.

Then there are people that think the trinity was replaced with something else: Control, Support, Damage. A little less tanky, more movement and damage control. A little less healy, and more support via boons and heals.

Wait…what?

Then there are those of us that think that people can build their character however they want, but do not expect to sit in the back and launch heals or condition removals…or sit in front of the boss and soak damage.

This what always bugs me about these topics. People who fail hard at tanking and healing trying to give an opinion on what those roles are about. Every game I ever played offered the chance to build your char the way you like. There were, ofc, certain limitations, but those were compensated by strong sides. Like, a dps class can tank, aggro can be generated through dmg and survival can be ensured through the right gear and skills. Tanks can provide some healing and dmg mitigation for the party thus sub for a healer. Healers can build for high dmg and/or cc. Sure, they won’t be the best in that unusual field, but they do make up for it with their own strengths. And pushing the limits of your class…well, that is fun. Doing stuff nobody thought were possible, coming up with builds nobody tried before, watching your little healer evolve into this pure force of nature… There is so much you can do in a well-designed game… And GW2, for all its praise and freedom….why is it that when I look on the ele forums, I see the “most viable build”? Why is there even such a thing? I miss playing a game where the answer to “what’s the best build?” was “w/e you like most” and not “30 in arcana, d/d”…

Trinity or no trinity, I loved healing. It was dumb for them to remove dedicated healers, they lost out on a lot of potential players that play heals exclusively. You are forced to DPS in GW2, no matter what role you want to play making the trinity nothing but a bunch of DPS. Isn’t this going backwards, not forwards? If anything they should have expanded on the trinity, not butcher it.

It’s sad because monks in GW1 were like an icon class then they just remove them along with any type of real healing in the game? WTH?

One thing I’d love is either Dual or Multi-spec.

I enjoy playing my Ele as a support, +regen, heal, etc in DE’s and groups. That spec (traits and gear) sucks when soloing.

Raine.1394:

GW2 has 5 trait lines. You choose the role you want to play in GW2 by choosing your build, weapons, traits, and gear, exactly the same as under the trinity. The question you are asking in GW2 is do I want to focus on damage, support, or control. What you call shades of grey I am calling insignificant function within a designated role.

BS.

Alright, what role are these two characters:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQJARSlYg67mFSKEf4ESWhCE7BGBfZ01DKyhYIA;ToAA2CnoyyklILbWuskZtIY8B

A variant of the ubiquitous Altruistic Healing Guardian. Spams buffs like they’re going out of style (support). Greatsword does very respectable damage + mix of Knights/Berserkers to support it (DPS). Has Altruistic healing + Toughness through the roof so it functions as a very effective tank (control).

Now which one is it? This is one of the most prevalent builds out there. Which role does it fill?

How about this guy: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQJATRjEVJ2RWGWs2Bi1DC1nB9ek+Y1eXhRVyuKA;ToAA2Coouxcj4G7Nubk3swYQB

Ranger with dual birds + max range longbow with a high crit chance + sigil of Air + Marksman line (DPS). But in addition, Healing Spring’s regen grating + boost to regen duration from runes + traits + ability to grant regen using projectile finishers through the water field and group condition cleansing through healing spring (support/healer). And then to top it off, he can quickly swap to Greatsword for control and tanking, especially with his high crit chance + sigil of blood, 2 sources of “always on” passive regen from signet + Natural Healing (more with some Mango pies) and a 6 second invulnerability. Not to mention, 2 sources of stability.

What role are they? Answer me that. Because I play both of them and I can tell you that defining them is impossible. Beyond that, they play completely differently despite the fact that they both fill the “same roles”.

Rukia.4802:

Trinity or no trinity, I loved healing. It was dumb for them to remove dedicated healers, they lost out on a lot of potential players that play heals exclusively. You are forced to DPS in GW2, no matter what role you want to play making the trinity nothing but a bunch of DPS. Isn’t this going backwards, not forwards? If anything they should have expanded on the trinity, not butcher it.

It’s sad because monks in GW1 were like an icon class then they just remove them along with any type of real healing in the game? WTH?

Actually… you’re doing it wrong. What you have available to you is a set of skills to choose from, from the two weapon set skills to the utilities, that give you a blend of damage, control and supporting abilities. What’s required of you now, in GW2, is to learn those skills and the multiple effects many of them have. A skill, such as mesmer great sword 2, may on the surface appear to be a “dps” skill… but in reality it’s a damage + support blend, giving might to allies on the bounces. In addition, it produces a clone for you as well. So the question is… do you use it right away because you don’t see an advantage to holding it for a bit (within the cooldown period), do you hold it a bit until an ally gets closer so you can add a buff to the ally while doing damage… what? That’s a simplistic skill, yet it can be made more powerful by thinking a bit about when to use it.

So, in a nutshell… you’re not forced to “dps”. You’re “required” (term used loosely) to know how each skill works and when to best use them. I can be running around the edges, for example, and see some allies catch fire for whatever reason. I toss a Null Field on them to help them out, maybe see a bad guy mixed in with them and toss GS2 in there, getting multiple bounces buffing allies and damaging the bad guys. I can then shatter the clone, crippling the foe allowing the allies a chance, if they want it, to get some separation. Instead of the generic script dance of the trinity, combat now is about situational awareness. When something happens, how can I best help out myself or the team? That guy’s in trouble… maybe use focus 4 to pull the bad guys off him and toss in a shatter to give him more separation. That bad guy there, I can strip that regen off him with great sword 3. If he predictably gets certain bluffs I’ll hold GS3 to remove them rather than use on cooldown. Still allowing yourself to be stuck in a “role” mindset is, to me, the greatest impediment to fully allowing the combat system to really flow.

@TWMagimay, so not true,

the very definition of best build in any trinity mmorpg is this:

dps best = min/max for your given class
tank best = min/max for your given class
heal best = min/max for your given class

Anything subpar or catered to your individual desire is purely minor, maybe one or two skills or skill points at best.

there are those in which even race/class combinations are the best for a given role
and if you choose anything else you’re not doing the best in your given part of the trinity and as such will get you kicked off the party most of the time because of dps meters !

Also I hate the fact that in a trinity mmo my toon is always locked in place if I go tank that is all I can do, not to mention the fact that most trinity mmo’s are all about playing the UI and not looking at what is going on, as long as you keep up with your skill rotation you can watch TV if you felt like it.

Omega.1473:

Raine.1394:

GW2 has 5 trait lines. You choose the role you want to play in GW2 by choosing your build, weapons, traits, and gear, exactly the same as under the trinity. The question you are asking in GW2 is do I want to focus on damage, support, or control. What you call shades of grey I am calling insignificant function within a designated role.

BS.

Alright, what role are these two characters:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQJARSlYg67mFSKEf4ESWhCE7BGBfZ01DKyhYIA;ToAA2CnoyyklILbWuskZtIY8B

A variant of the ubiquitous Altruistic Healing Guardian. Spams buffs like they’re going out of style (support). Greatsword does very respectable damage + mix of Knights/Berserkers to support it (DPS). Has Altruistic healing + Toughness through the roof so it functions as a very effective tank (control).

Now which one is it? This is one of the most prevalent builds out there. Which role does it fill?

How about this guy: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQJATRjEVJ2RWGWs2Bi1DC1nB9ek+Y1eXhRVyuKA;ToAA2Coouxcj4G7Nubk3swYQB

Ranger with dual birds + max range longbow with a high crit chance + sigil of Air + Marksman line (DPS). But in addition, Healing Spring’s regen grating + boost to regen duration from runes + traits + ability to grant regen using projectile finishers through the water field and group condition cleansing through healing spring (support/healer). And then to top it off, he can quickly swap to Greatsword for control and tanking, especially with his high crit chance + sigil of blood, 2 sources of “always on” passive regen from signet + Natural Healing (more with some Mango pies) and a 6 second invulnerability. Not to mention, 2 sources of stability.

What role are they? Answer me that. Because I play both of them and I can tell you that defining them is impossible. Beyond that, they play completely differently despite the fact that they both fill the “same roles”.

That’s an easy one. They fulfill all the roles and don’t do any of them with any significance, except DPS. And, even that you gimp to the extent you go for support. I believe you’ve illustrated the problem the OP is suggesting that exists in the game. There are roles which are defined in GW2 but none of them feel significant beyond DPS. Again, roles in groups are hard-coded in humans. In order to fulfill a role and find it satisfying, it should be and feel significant.

VOLKON.1290:

Rukia.4802:

Trinity or no trinity, I loved healing. It was dumb for them to remove dedicated healers, they lost out on a lot of potential players that play heals exclusively. You are forced to DPS in GW2, no matter what role you want to play making the trinity nothing but a bunch of DPS. Isn’t this going backwards, not forwards? If anything they should have expanded on the trinity, not butcher it.

It’s sad because monks in GW1 were like an icon class then they just remove them along with any type of real healing in the game? WTH?

Actually… you’re doing it wrong. What you have available to you is a set of skills to choose from, from the two weapon set skills to the utilities, that give you a blend of damage, control and supporting abilities. What’s required of you now, in GW2, is to learn those skills and the multiple effects many of them have. A skill, such as mesmer great sword 2, may on the surface appear to be a “dps” skill… but in reality it’s a damage + support blend, giving might to allies on the bounces. In addition, it produces a clone for you as well. So the question is… do you use it right away because you don’t see an advantage to holding it for a bit (within the cooldown period), do you hold it a bit until an ally gets closer so you can add a buff to the ally while doing damage… what? That’s a simplistic skill, yet it can be made more powerful by thinking a bit about when to use it.

So, in a nutshell… you’re not forced to “dps”. You’re “required” (term used loosely) to know how each skill works and when to best use them. I can be running around the edges, for example, and see some allies catch fire for whatever reason. I toss a Null Field on them to help them out, maybe see a bad guy mixed in with them and toss GS2 in there, getting multiple bounces buffing allies and damaging the bad guys. I can then shatter the clone, crippling the foe allowing the allies a chance, if they want it, to get some separation. Instead of the generic script dance of the trinity, combat now is about situational awareness. When something happens, how can I best help out myself or the team? That guy’s in trouble… maybe use focus 4 to pull the bad guys off him and toss in a shatter to give him more separation. That bad guy there, I can strip that regen off him with great sword 3. If he predictably gets certain bluffs I’ll hold GS3 to remove them rather than use on cooldown. Still allowing yourself to be stuck in a “role” mindset is, to me, the greatest impediment to fully allowing the combat system to really flow.

All sounds great on paper, but combat is boring in game, cool story though. And I stand by the fact that this is a pure DPS game. Cool, you can remove conditions and cripple foes. I can do that in any trinity game. I can even heal my self in WoW on my rogue more than I can in GW2.

Sorry but GW2 is not progressing forward in any sort of trinity.

Rukia.4802:

It’s sad because monks in GW1 were like an icon class then they just remove them along with any type of real healing in the game? WTH?

Bad Mhenlo. Bad. No game for you.

TWMagimay.9057:

And GW2, for all its praise and freedom….why is it that when I look on the ele forums, I see the “most viable build”? Why is there even such a thing? I miss playing a game where the answer to “what’s the best build?” was “w/e you like most” and not “30 in arcana, d/d”…

There will always be “most viable build” people in every game. It happened on GW1 and I assume happens on most games. It’s more a personality thing ("gotta do things as fast and “efficiently” as possible!"-but doesn’t takes into acount individuality, player skill, and more importantly, just having fun.) This one actually gives a lot of freedom. Don’t let elitists tell you how to play your Elementalist, because especially on this game, you don’t really need to be a “specific build” in order to have fun and succeed. Playing how you want is more viable than ever, despite the naysayers. The “most viable build” mentality is not GW2s design fault, but rather people following other games’ mentality and/or pretending to be “elite” dungeon speedrunners.

Raine.1394:

That’s an easy one. They fulfill all the roles and don’t do any of them with any significance, except DPS. And, even that you gimp to the extent you go for support. I believe you’ve illustrated the problem the OP is suggesting that exists in the game. There are roles which are defined in GW2 but none of them feel significant beyond DPS. Again, roles in groups are hard-coded in humans. In order to fulfill a role and find it satisfying, it should be and feel significant.

I’m sorry, but you’re just incorrect here. I wish I had FRAPS or the like just to show how much I “gimp” these characters by speccing for support in the ways I do.

You’re criticizing the Altruistic Healing Guardian set. This is the build that people use at Fractals level 40 and its the reason that you see so many “Looking for 2 more Guardian/Warrior only”. I’d love to show you how my Ranger was able to go toe-to-toe at the Grenth temple while everyone else had to waypoint zerg while I kept the event alive and how the amount of control and support I was able to do, while still making respectable progress towards killing the priest, kept me and those with me alive.

Its not human nature to submit to having to fit into a niche. Its insecure people who look for a nice cubby hole. Smart, adaptable, creative people find their own way, buck the roles and decide how they want to do things on their terms. Roles are not an inherent thing, they’re a social construct of a society that has bred itself so that everyone “wants to feel needed”.

Rukia.4802:

All sounds great on paper, but combat is boring in game, cool story though. And I stand by the fact that this is a pure DPS game. Cool, you can remove conditions and cripple foes. I can do that in any trinity game. I can even heal my self in WoW on my rogue more than I can in GW2.

Sorry but GW2 is not progressing forward in any sort of trinity.

It sounds great on paper, it works better in practice if you actually do it. Anyone with a clue regarding GW2 combat is fully aware that this is much more than a “pure DPS” game. You’re allowed your opinions regardless of how wrong they are, but you’re not allowed your own facts. The examples I gave, however, only scratch the surface of the capabilities each player has with their chosen profession, the weapons they choose, the traits they select, the utilities they choose, etc.

Sorry but GW2 is not progressing forward in any sort of trinity. Good news… they’re not trying to progress forward in any sort of trinity. They’ve progressed forwards by leaving an archaic system behind.

Raine.1394:

Omega.1473:

Raine.1394:

GW2 has 5 trait lines. You choose the role you want to play in GW2 by choosing your build, weapons, traits, and gear, exactly the same as under the trinity. The question you are asking in GW2 is do I want to focus on damage, support, or control. What you call shades of grey I am calling insignificant function within a designated role.

BS.

Alright, what role are these two characters:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQJARSlYg67mFSKEf4ESWhCE7BGBfZ01DKyhYIA;ToAA2CnoyyklILbWuskZtIY8B

A variant of the ubiquitous Altruistic Healing Guardian. Spams buffs like they’re going out of style (support). Greatsword does very respectable damage + mix of Knights/Berserkers to support it (DPS). Has Altruistic healing + Toughness through the roof so it functions as a very effective tank (control).

Now which one is it? This is one of the most prevalent builds out there. Which role does it fill?

How about this guy: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQJATRjEVJ2RWGWs2Bi1DC1nB9ek+Y1eXhRVyuKA;ToAA2Coouxcj4G7Nubk3swYQB

Ranger with dual birds + max range longbow with a high crit chance + sigil of Air + Marksman line (DPS). But in addition, Healing Spring’s regen grating + boost to regen duration from runes + traits + ability to grant regen using projectile finishers through the water field and group condition cleansing through healing spring (support/healer). And then to top it off, he can quickly swap to Greatsword for control and tanking, especially with his high crit chance + sigil of blood, 2 sources of “always on” passive regen from signet + Natural Healing (more with some Mango pies) and a 6 second invulnerability. Not to mention, 2 sources of stability.

What role are they? Answer me that. Because I play both of them and I can tell you that defining them is impossible. Beyond that, they play completely differently despite the fact that they both fill the “same roles”.

That’s an easy one. They fulfill all the roles and don’t do any of them with any significance, except DPS. And, even that you gimp to the extent you go for support. I believe you’ve illustrated the problem the OP is suggesting that exists in the game. There are roles which are defined in GW2 but none of them feel significant beyond DPS. Again, roles in groups are hard-coded in humans. In order to fulfill a role and find it satisfying, it should be and feel significant.

those 2 guardian builds are more support based than anything else.
does that mean he can’t dps? no it doesn’t, does that mean he can’t perform control? no it doesn’t.

It means his primary focus is support, that is all it means.
it makes a huge difference to have a support build guardian in your party, you will certainly feel the huge difference, when all of a sudden you’re only taking half the damage and regenerating health at an alarming rate, while putting retaliation out and contributing to dps all at the same time.

if you don’t have a guardian in your party you better get a support ele or a shouts healer warrior, it’s not the same but quite close.

VOLKON.1290:

Rukia.4802:

All sounds great on paper, but combat is boring in game, cool story though. And I stand by the fact that this is a pure DPS game. Cool, you can remove conditions and cripple foes. I can do that in any trinity game. I can even heal my self in WoW on my rogue more than I can in GW2.

Sorry but GW2 is not progressing forward in any sort of trinity.

It sounds great on paper, it works better in practice if you actually do it. Anyone with a clue regarding GW2 combat is fully aware that this is much more than a “pure DPS” game. You’re allowed your opinions regardless of how wrong they are, but you’re not allowed your own facts. The examples I gave, however, only scratch the surface of the capabilities each player has with their chosen profession, the weapons they choose, the traits they select, the utilities they choose, etc.

Sorry but GW2 is not progressing forward in any sort of trinity. Good news… they’re not trying to progress forward in any sort of trinity. They’ve progressed forwards by leaving an archaic system behind.

All that and you think GW2 has no trinity. Lol okay not going to argue with a troll anyway. Ever heard of DPS/Support/CC, by chance?

You are literally forced to DPS on any character btw, and I’m not talking utilities, I’m talking core mechanics of every profession. DPS, DPS, and more DPS.

VOLKON.1290:

It sounds great on paper, it works better in practice if you actually do it. Anyone with a clue regarding GW2 combat is fully aware that this is much more than a “pure DPS” game. You’re allowed your opinions regardless of how wrong they are, but you’re not allowed your own facts. The examples I gave, however, only scratch the surface of the capabilities each player has with their chosen profession, the weapons they choose, the traits they select, the utilities they choose, etc.

The examples you gave simply show that generally it is DPS + some support / CC / utlility tacked on.

So what you end up is with a far less varied style of play than you get in a game with healers or that comlpex support classes give, a healer is a far more signifcant change in style from a DPS than anything you get in GW2, which is more like a glorified ARPG in terms of class design.

Furthermore there is nothing in this game that requries the level of multitasking or awareness that I needed to heal / CC / debuff / DPS / cleanse , etc on my Chlorodom in Rift when I PvPed (whilst being constantly focus fired) or to offheal/CC/keep up stun immunity/cleanse/manage pet/debuff/DPS on Loremaster in LOTRO when I raided.

About the only things the GW2 classes are step up from in terms of awareness/multitasking/complexity are simple DPS or simple tanks from other games, for some classes / builds (p/d thief for instance) not even that.

Sylosi.6503:

VOLKON.1290:

It sounds great on paper, it works better in practice if you actually do it. Anyone with a clue regarding GW2 combat is fully aware that this is much more than a “pure DPS” game. You’re allowed your opinions regardless of how wrong they are, but you’re not allowed your own facts. The examples I gave, however, only scratch the surface of the capabilities each player has with their chosen profession, the weapons they choose, the traits they select, the utilities they choose, etc.

The examples you gave simply show that generally it is DPS + some support / CC / utlility tacked on.

So what you end up is with a far less varied style of play than you get in a game with healers or that comlpex support classes give, a healer is a far more signifcant change in style from a DPS than anything you get in GW2, which is more like a glorified ARPG.

Furthermore there is nothing in this game that requries the level of multitasking or awareness that I needed to heal / CC / debuff / DPS / cleanse , etc on my Chlorodom in Rift when I PvPed (whilst being constantly focus fired) or to offheal/CC/keep up stun immunity/cleanse/manage pet/debuff/DPS on Loremaster in LOTRO when I raided. About the only things the classes are step up from in terms of awareness/multitasking are simple DPS or simple tanks from other games, for some classes / builds (p/d thief for instance) not even that.

Exactly my point, thank you

Rukia.4802:

VOLKON.1290:

Rukia.4802:

All sounds great on paper, but combat is boring in game, cool story though. And I stand by the fact that this is a pure DPS game. Cool, you can remove conditions and cripple foes. I can do that in any trinity game. I can even heal my self in WoW on my rogue more than I can in GW2.

Sorry but GW2 is not progressing forward in any sort of trinity.

It sounds great on paper, it works better in practice if you actually do it. Anyone with a clue regarding GW2 combat is fully aware that this is much more than a “pure DPS” game. You’re allowed your opinions regardless of how wrong they are, but you’re not allowed your own facts. The examples I gave, however, only scratch the surface of the capabilities each player has with their chosen profession, the weapons they choose, the traits they select, the utilities they choose, etc.

Sorry but GW2 is not progressing forward in any sort of trinity. Good news… they’re not trying to progress forward in any sort of trinity. They’ve progressed forwards by leaving an archaic system behind.

All that and you think GW2 has no trinity. Lol okay not going to argue with a troll anyway. Ever heard of DPS/Support/CC, by chance?

You are literally forced to DPS on any character btw, and I’m not talking utilities, I’m talking core mechanics of every profession. DPS, DPS, and more DPS.

looking at it in this narrow minded way, the holy trinity should than be renamed to the holy duo because dps is inevitable for all classes after all, we all need to kill things.

And no gw2 has no trinity, it has roles and even those are optional !
no locking me into doing 1 specific thing all the time like a mindless automaton !

VOLKON.1290:

Rukia.4802:

VOLKON.1290:

Vasham.2408:

I personally can’t wait for the players who would insult anyone who perfers the trinity as “unskilled.” I dare you to go up to a top 100 WoW raiding guild and say that.

The problem with using WoW raids as a base to determine skill is that they’re nothing more than scripted events. When a new raid is made, the “top” guilds get to beta test the raid. They’re also given the script on how to fight that particular fight. Tanks do this, dps avoid that, etc. Once they’ve mastered the script, they create videos to tell the rest of the community exactly how to do the fight. The only skill they really have is skill at following a script. When I was playing (pre-Cata), tanking was going to the right place and doing my 9-6-9 rotation, occasionally using a taunt if an add broke loose or whatever. At predetermined (and loudly alarmed) moments I may need to add in an additional mitigation skill… that was pretty much it. On my hunter, go there, start rotation. Alarm sounds, next line in the script.

That’s what I like about the GW2 system instead… scripts are tossed out the window. You’re free to deal with the encounters as you see fit, and there are a myriad amount of ways to do so. I do what needs to be done, not what the script tells me I need to do next.

Lol so you think GW2 doesn’t have scripted fights, that’s cute.

Anyway let’s see your 25m heroic raid boss kills since, after all, all you need to get them is following a simple scripted fight.

Don’t get confused because your team carried you through a normal 10man

Carried? As much as a main tank gets carried, I suppose you could say I was. 9-6-9 baby!

Anyhow, interesting way to divert from the point. In trinity systems the raids are built to require a set number of tanks, healers and dps. They’re also, in WoW sense at least, built to a script. You follow the script or you fail. If the tanks don’t follow the script, fail. If the dps doesn’t follow the script, fail. Even healers are stuck in script mode.

The nice thing with GW2 is you don’t have those set scripts. You’re allowed to bring whatever varied mix you wish, and within the interactions of that mix come up with a solution. Sure, the bosses may have predictable behavior in many cases. Take… who is it… Aidan? Yeah… he starts in the middle, ports to the outer edge, back to the middle, back to the outer edge for the finale. But even though you know what he’s going to do you won’t have every party reacting in the exact same way to counter it. Five mesmers will get through the encounter in a completely different way than five warriors or any mix of professions. That’s what I’m talking about regarding “scripted” or not… not whether or not the boss is predictable, but whether or not the players are required to follow a script to succeed. In WoW, you’re not a hunter, a warlock and a mage in the group for the most part. You’re dps. Period. It doesn’t matter what class is tanking, you’re a tank, period. You go where the tank is scripted to go and to tanky things according to the script. None of the player scripting is in GW2… you’re free to tackle the encounter as you see fit.

Here the word script is used inappropriately. It suggests you don’t have to think about a fight and situational awareness is key to success in GW2 or WoW. The more appropriate word to use in the discussion is role. And, yes, it’s true that if you don’t perform your role well under the trinity things won’t go well. It’s the same IRL. In an operating room there are a set number of surgeons, nurses, and an anesthesiologist. The number of instruments on the trays are scripted, the medical devices are standard for the procedure, and, yes, this is brain surgery.

What you describe in your last sentence is the berzerker battlefield, everyone doing what is right in their own eyes. It’s a very primitive understanding of human behavior in groups. And, it’s not how humans function at their highest level of effectiveness in games or in operating rooms.

Rukia.4802:

VOLKON.1290:

Rukia.4802:

All sounds great on paper, but combat is boring in game, cool story though. And I stand by the fact that this is a pure DPS game. Cool, you can remove conditions and cripple foes. I can do that in any trinity game. I can even heal my self in WoW on my rogue more than I can in GW2.

Sorry but GW2 is not progressing forward in any sort of trinity.

It sounds great on paper, it works better in practice if you actually do it. Anyone with a clue regarding GW2 combat is fully aware that this is much more than a “pure DPS” game. You’re allowed your opinions regardless of how wrong they are, but you’re not allowed your own facts. The examples I gave, however, only scratch the surface of the capabilities each player has with their chosen profession, the weapons they choose, the traits they select, the utilities they choose, etc.

Sorry but GW2 is not progressing forward in any sort of trinity. Good news… they’re not trying to progress forward in any sort of trinity. They’ve progressed forwards by leaving an archaic system behind.

All that and you think GW2 has no trinity. Lol okay not going to argue with a troll anyway. Ever heard of DPS/Support/CC, by chance?

You are literally forced to DPS on any character btw, and I’m not talking utilities, I’m talking core mechanics of every profession. DPS, DPS, and more DPS.

You’re missing the point. There are no pure dps characters. There are no pure support, nor are there pure control. Every character has a blend of these abilities, by design. The very skills themselves more often than not cover more than one aspect. Chaos Storm, for example, has elements of damage, control and support built into it. I’ve used it for no other reason than to buff allies hoping to toss a speed boost on them while running about in WvW. It also damages, it can also control foes with various conditions. Most of my other skills mix in damage with control or support in various blends. Focus 4 – great control and support blended skills. Cleverly used, it can also provide plenty of damage with a gravity assist.

So no… there is no trinity in GW2, not in the sense that everyone has a set, hard role and that’s all they do. We are our own self-contained trinities if you must insist in keeping that word in the vernacular. I don’t think in terms of d/c/s in combat these days. Instead it’s simply about what I need to do at that moment. Pull foes from allies? I do it. Buff allies, damage foes, apply conditions… I do them all, and rather well. I’m not damage, control or support. I’m a mesmer in Guild Wars 2.

cesmode.4257:

To add fuel to this discussion, what about those that insist trinity exists in this game? Those people that would say in a world event, or dungeon “Let me pull”. I had an argument with someone in map chat a few days ago when, at the start of a world event, he said “let me pull”. I pointed out to him that theres no such thing as a true tank in this game, and no healer to keep you alive.

Long story short, there are people that still insist that there is a trinity, that they can build their character via stats and trait lines to be as tanky as they want. You will not convince these people otherwise.

Then there are people that think the trinity was replaced with something else: Control, Support, Damage. A little less tanky, more movement and damage control. A little less healy, and more support via boons and heals.

Then there are those of us that think that people can build their character however they want, but do not expect to sit in the back and launch heals or condition removals…or sit in front of the boss and soak damage.

Thoughts on this?

Here’s my thoughts. To a degree, I agree with you. You can go into an instance with just about any group makeup and succeed. People need to just play to their strengths and understand the choices they made in their particular build.

For example, Ive built my mesmer to focus on reducing/mitigating enemy damage through blinds, dazes, snares and cripples – and increasing damage done through might, vulnerability, and retaliation. When the group heads into a fight, I look at the elements of that particular encounter where those mechanics are most important.

To your point about whether or not someone should be assigned to “pull.” I usually pull for our group, but not for the same reasons you would in a traditional trinity game. The main reason to control the pull is so that your group can choose where to fight and the rest of the group can pre-position. This makes a bigger difference than most realize. The second reason I usually pull is so that I can apply vulnerability and cripple to the target before the rest of the group engages. It ups total damage and makes it easier to keep the boss under control.

Finally, I have had some success “tanking” in some encounters. In the uncharacterized fractal, for example, I will pull the shaman to the opposite side of the room and keep him there while the rest of the group takes out the bunny, the veteran and the ettin. It just requires a very disciplined group. I find that, as long as I am the only one hitting a given target, I can easily pull him away from the group. Since the mesmer can gain vigor easily and has a lot of survival tools, it is usually easier for me to kite. Its not useful on every fight – again, its about assessing the situation and planning accordingly around the traits/skills/etc the group has chosen (versus simply memorizing the dance method used by most trinity games).

I paly tank in all the mmos I ever played I feel that this game could use a I heal class. in it make the whole game a more fun in my eyes.

Latinkuro.9420:

Raine.1394:

Omega.1473:

Raine.1394:

GW2 has 5 trait lines. You choose the role you want to play in GW2 by choosing your build, weapons, traits, and gear, exactly the same as under the trinity. The question you are asking in GW2 is do I want to focus on damage, support, or control. What you call shades of grey I am calling insignificant function within a designated role.

BS.

Alright, what role are these two characters:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQJARSlYg67mFSKEf4ESWhCE7BGBfZ01DKyhYIA;ToAA2CnoyyklILbWuskZtIY8B

A variant of the ubiquitous Altruistic Healing Guardian. Spams buffs like they’re going out of style (support). Greatsword does very respectable damage + mix of Knights/Berserkers to support it (DPS). Has Altruistic healing + Toughness through the roof so it functions as a very effective tank (control).

Now which one is it? This is one of the most prevalent builds out there. Which role does it fill?

How about this guy: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fMAQJATRjEVJ2RWGWs2Bi1DC1nB9ek+Y1eXhRVyuKA;ToAA2Coouxcj4G7Nubk3swYQB

Ranger with dual birds + max range longbow with a high crit chance + sigil of Air + Marksman line (DPS). But in addition, Healing Spring’s regen grating + boost to regen duration from runes + traits + ability to grant regen using projectile finishers through the water field and group condition cleansing through healing spring (support/healer). And then to top it off, he can quickly swap to Greatsword for control and tanking, especially with his high crit chance + sigil of blood, 2 sources of “always on” passive regen from signet + Natural Healing (more with some Mango pies) and a 6 second invulnerability. Not to mention, 2 sources of stability.

What role are they? Answer me that. Because I play both of them and I can tell you that defining them is impossible. Beyond that, they play completely differently despite the fact that they both fill the “same roles”.

That’s an easy one. They fulfill all the roles and don’t do any of them with any significance, except DPS. And, even that you gimp to the extent you go for support. I believe you’ve illustrated the problem the OP is suggesting that exists in the game. There are roles which are defined in GW2 but none of them feel significant beyond DPS. Again, roles in groups are hard-coded in humans. In order to fulfill a role and find it satisfying, it should be and feel significant.

those 2 guardian builds are more support based than anything else.
does that mean he can’t dps? no it doesn’t, does that mean he can’t perform control? no it doesn’t.

It means his primary focus is support, that is all it means.
it makes a huge difference to have a support build guardian in your party, you will certainly feel the huge difference, when all of a sudden you’re only taking half the damage and regenerating health at an alarming rate, while putting retaliation out and contributing to dps all at the same time.

if you don’t have a guardian in your party you better get a support ele or a shouts healer warrior, it’s not the same but quite close.

His guardian build is the same as my guardian build. But, cookie-cutter builds, or the lack of true build diversity is a subject for another thread. Actually, people have only half jokingly suggested that 5 guardians would be the ideal team composition for steamrolling any dungeon content. This, however, is more illustrative of the problem rather than support for the roles defined in GW2.

Vasham.2408:

I personally can’t wait for the players who would insult anyone who perfers the trinity as “unskilled.” I dare you to go up to a top 100 WoW raiding guild and say that.

This isn’t WoW, and you are unskilled at GW2 combat if you can’t master it.

Raine.1394:

Here the word script is used inappropriately. It suggests you don’t have to think about a fight and situational awareness is key to success in GW2 or WoW. The more appropriate word to use in the discussion is role. And, yes, it’s true that if you don’t perform your role well under the trinity things won’t go well. It’s the same IRL. In an operating room there are a set number of surgeons, nurses, and an anesthesiologist. The number of instruments on the trays are scripted, the medical devices are standard for the procedure, and, yes, this is brain surgery.

What you describe in your last sentence is the berzerker battlefield, everyone doing doing what is right in their own eyes. It’s a very primitive understanding of human behavior in groups. And, it’s not how humans function at their highest level of effectiveness in games or in operating rooms.

here the word role is used inappropriately, and the correct word is script why?
here, in a wowask trinity fight it doesn’t matter how well you perform your role if, you do not have the gear for the boss encounter, if you do not keep up with silly rotations, if you do not follow the script that says unless you do this you will die horribly.

To use your operating room example,
Trinity example:

there are points at which you have to use specific tools at a specific moments or anything else you do will fail horribly no matter how good a surgeon you may be this is holy trinity style scripting

Gw2 example:
the instruments are the same as the previous example but because only the boss and not the whole fight has been scripted to have a specific trinity party you can deal with it as you see fit, to put it in your surgeon perspective, you have a massive bleed do you use a clamp, do you use suction or do you finish the operation while using suction and blood transfusions to keep going ?

in GW2 you have all those options open to you and you choose the course that feels best to you, in trinity gameplay the script says use the clamp or die

Again to put it in surgeon terms as you seem to like those, in trinity based gameplay only a brain surgeon is allowed to perform brain surgery, only a heart surgeon is allowed to perform heart surgery and so on.

in GW2 is more like you’re a general surgeon and you can perform any of those if the need arises.

Too many players boil things down to numbers and supposed effectiveness levels. It’s why DPS is seen by some as the only “role” on GW2. Fact is you can still have fun with many non “full DPS” builds, and actually play whichever way you want and be effective. I find pure DPS rather boring (blame me, not DPS per se), so I refuse to play all DPS builds for the most part-“shockingly”, I still do well, do good damage while usually augmenting that of my teammates, and help my allies in numbers of ways not easily appreciated-may not be the most “efficient” playstyle for some players, but it’s the most fun way to play for me.

I actually dont’ mind when ohers focus on DPS “roles”, I just wish many of those players were more tolerant about the many other things we can do in this game BESIDES damage numbers. There is room for “quasi-roles” or “multi-roles” in the game.

I believe the biggest flaw of GW2 combat system is not the combat itself, but that developers haven’t commented enough (as far as I know) about what they really meant to achieve with it besides not having a trinity and having viable builds for every character that need not be this or that. Even the control/support/DPS “trinity” may have been player-conceptualized, and not developer-intended (please correct me if I am wrong.) As most people don’t know what to make of it, some want to fit “trinity-like” combat systems they are accustomed to to the game, while others reject any and all roles (I belong to the latter group, though I mostly play my main character as a supportive battle priest.) I wish developers had a stronger, official word regatrding GW2 combat so all these pseudo-trinity talks or “DPS is the only viable role” comments could be at least officially denied.

I sincerely doubt ANet wanted this game to be about DPS as the only viable role, period. I know I don’t play that way, and do incredibly well, in any case, so if they pretended that DPS was to be King, then they failed incredibly with this particular player-and from what I read, many others as well.

No offense to anyone in here-play whichever way you want, and love/hate whatever you wish.

Sylv.5324:

Vasham.2408:

I personally can’t wait for the players who would insult anyone who perfers the trinity as “unskilled.” I dare you to go up to a top 100 WoW raiding guild and say that.

This isn’t WoW, and you are unskilled at GW2 combat if you can’t master it.

wow players are good at following scripts and they call it skill, sure it’s a skill alright just NOT the kind I’d want to have in GW2.
GW2, is more about acting and reacting to what is going on around you.

think about it like this:
trinity
you’re a dog on a leash (player) and you follow your master (script) everywhere he says you have to go, you have no choice you’re on a leash, you do not know the meaning of freedom it is a concept alien to you.

GW2
you’re a dog with no leash (player) and you have a master (script) you can follow if you want or you can bite him, run off and do what you feel is best its up to you.

The current problem is not that we need healers or tanks or a new class.
The problem atm is very simple. The classes lack builds.

Most classes have either a very lacklustre support and DPS potential outside of a few builds. There are 5 Skill trees there should be at least room for 3 viable builds on every class. Yet most classes have one build that somewhat works in either WvW, sPvP or PvE.
The main reasons for that are bugs ( over 100 bugs on a single class is a very sad thing that pretty much all classes besides Warrior and Thieve is just a disappointment), weird Trait layouts and the lack of certain gear/ weapon options.

Let me elaborate.

Bugs should be pretty clear. If some mechanics don’t work it cripples the build. If the core mechanics don’t work the build is just bad ( Pet AI).

Trait layout isn’t that clear on the other hand. I am sure A-net put a lot of thoughts into it an tested it quit a lot but with every game the dev’s know less about building the characters then the players do.
That is just how games work.
While in theory some stuff might sound good in reality the risk(effort)/reward ratio is something they can hardly grasp because they don’t play the game the same way we do.

Also some stuff was out dated before the game was out. A short look about some classes traits clearly tells you that.

Take the Domination trait line for the Mesmer. It builds around 3 things buffing the burst for random stuff , giving shatters more secondary effects and interrupting/ CCing the enemy. Now the first to thing are nice and often taken for a shatter build and have there place, even though they are only taken because there is no better option which is something that leaves a unsatisfied feeling.
But interrupts?
The Mesmer in Gw1 was a very disruptive class and could shut down the enemy pretty hard. But in Gw2? Not only that it is very hard to see when the enemy is casting something ( either because you are moving a lot in PvP or all the effects in PvE) most of the stuff is just incredibly bad.
5 % more dmg vs inactive foes? In a game where most CC is 1 sec long?
50% chance to make a daze to a 1 sec stun ? Not only is that pretty bad for a grand master trait but also is the game not based around this any more. If you want to interrupt the enemy the daze is gone do the job the 1 sec stun won’t do you a lot. If the enemy warrior was up you kitten he still be in range for his jumps and snares after that sec. If the boss was about to wreck your kitten he will keep doing that. And that is fine as long as you balance the classes around it. To give them tools that they not only don’t need but are also incredibly weak really feels like a place holder. A way to solve this would be to re visit on class each month and clean up their Traits. If that would mean that less content is in the monthly update I would be OK with that. But leaving them like this is just bad. It should be done asap.

And lastly gear and weapons. I don’t mean by that we need better gear or a gear grind like in WoW.
What we really need is more different stat combinations on the gear. This would open up more build paths and give some builds a push to be more effective.

Weapons are the same. But still I want to add something to weapons. While we have a big amount of weapons we can use some classes lack a weapon for certain roles. The ranger has no support weapon, the Mesmer has no real AoE weapon and the melee option for engis is… do we really even count the wrench?
New weapons give classes the options to play roles they can’t play / are very bad in atm and open up groups for everyone.
Atm Guardians and eles have just soooooo much support power no one else comes even close. Others have great support options but what is the point in dropping a lot of your dmg and have less support power then say a ele how can also deal more dmg then you others don’t have realy support options at all. This doesn’t apply do dmg as much but some classes have a very limited variety of dmg options.

I understand that some of this points need a lot of thoughts to be put in and time to be made.
But honestly some of this stuff should have been done after the major changes of BW2. If you really want people to stay you need to let them play the class they want in the setting they want and this is not possible atm. Not even close.

This is the state of the game for me atm. It really sounds very grim but that is mostly because I only focused on the things done wrong. There are still a lot of things A-net did right and really well ( D/D Ele, the range options on Thive and Warrior , Mesmer melee burst etc) but this makes the lack of this thing just stand out even more. If you have to choose a class based on what you want to do in a game that claims to do the opposite it needs work.

Latinkuro.9420:

@TWMagimay, so not true,

the very definition of best build in any trinity mmorpg is this:

dps best = min/max for your given class
tank best = min/max for your given class
heal best = min/max for your given class

Anything subpar or catered to your individual desire is purely minor, maybe one or two skills or skill points at best.

Or maybe you just never went deep enough into classes. Or played poorly designed games. 2Moons nerfed segnales(the healer class) like 6-7 times in 2 years because we were doing so much dps and dd builds were still viable. In Aika my usual dungeon tank was a dual gunner(as far as squishy dps stereotypes go, that was it, the guy just took squishy and made it unkillable). It’s not just about skills or master/trai/w.e points. It’s about a complete build. Just because you are a healer doesn’t mean you have to max healing or that you will be somehow…worse because you didn’t. You will simply change the way the class plays.

there are those in which even race/class combinations are the best for a given role
and if you choose anything else you’re not doing the best in your given part of the trinity and as such will get you kicked off the party most of the time because of dps meters !

Actually…I never played a game with a dps meter…or was kicked form a party for wrong race/class combo….actually, I don’t think I’ve ever been kicked from a party….

Also I hate the fact that in a trinity mmo my toon is always locked in place if I go tank that is all I can do, not to mention the fact that most trinity mmo’s are all about playing the UI and not looking at what is going on, as long as you keep up with your skill rotation you can watch TV if you felt like it.

Again, bad games or bad players. I seriously don’t know what kind of trash yall played if that’s how you see games. The only times I did that stuff only was when I was being lazy and I was well aware that I was playing poorly and not even at half my potential. I never allowed myself to do that in pvp(which prior to GW2 was my main focus) because, well, I’d be letting my team down…

Latinkuro.9420:

Raine.1394:

Here the word script is used inappropriately. It suggests you don’t have to think about a fight and situational awareness is key to success in GW2 or WoW. The more appropriate word to use in the discussion is role. And, yes, it’s true that if you don’t perform your role well under the trinity things won’t go well. It’s the same IRL. In an operating room there are a set number of surgeons, nurses, and an anesthesiologist. The number of instruments on the trays are scripted, the medical devices are standard for the procedure, and, yes, this is brain surgery.

What you describe in your last sentence is the berzerker battlefield, everyone doing doing what is right in their own eyes. It’s a very primitive understanding of human behavior in groups. And, it’s not how humans function at their highest level of effectiveness in games or in operating rooms.

here the word role is used inappropriately, and the correct word is script why?
here, in a wowask trinity fight it doesn’t matter how well you perform your role if, you do not have the gear for the boss encounter, if you do not keep up with silly rotations, if you do not follow the script that says unless you do this you will die horribly.

To use your operating room example,
Trinity example:

there are points at which you have to use specific tools at a specific moments or anything else you do will fail horribly no matter how good a surgeon you may be this is holy trinity style scripting

Gw2 example:
the instruments are the same as the previous example but because only the boss and not the whole fight has been scripted to have a specific trinity party you can deal with it as you see fit, to put it in your surgeon perspective, you have a massive bleed do you use a clamp, do you use suction or do you finish the operation while using suction and blood transfusions to keep going ?

in GW2 you have all those options open to you and you choose the course that feels best to you, in trinity gameplay the script says use the clamp or die

Again to put it in surgeon terms as you seem to like those, in trinity based gameplay only a brain surgeon is allowed to perform brain surgery, only a heart surgeon is allowed to perform heart surgery and so on.

in GW2 is more like you’re a general surgeon and you can perform any of those if the need arises.

And, how well will you perform in a boss encounter in GW2 without the right gear? I’ve spent a lot of time in GW2 thinking through my gear and optimizing it. Gear and their stats play the same role in GW2 as in WoW. Silly rotations? Can you give me an example of a silly healer rotation?

Rotations in WoW for tanks and dps are essentially the same as those in GW2. Let’s take dps for example. Your rotations are priority based. You use your highest dps skills on CD in preference to available lower dps skills or auto-attacks. Additionally, you use CC as needed or assigned. The use of skills in both WoW and GW2 are the same. And, to the extent rotations exist in WoW, they exist in GW2.

This is what bothers me in the discussion and what I’m objecting to. I’m not supporting the trinity. I’m opposing irrational and factual incorrect statements by those opposing the trinity.

I object your honor !
you say rotations in GW2 are the same as in wowask games ? seriously this alone is insane just to say it.

you say: You use your highest dps skills on CD in preference to available lower dps skills or auto-attacks and this is why you’re playing it wrong !

all skills in gw2 are optional and situational, trinity based games cannot say the same most of your skills follow a certain pattern and for the sake of rotations cannot be used whenever you feel like using it.

what I mean by the right gear is this, in gw2 you can go in with rare yellow gear and still come out on top because your skill makes up for the difference, in wowask trinity based game the fights are scripted to such an extend you will not succeed unless you have the right gear for that particular encounter it is the reason there is gear score and raiding tiers.

also I’m done replying to this thread !

it’s going nowhere, trinity addicted automatons will never ever understand the concept of freedom, why should they ? they’ve never had freedom before !

Raine.1394:

And, how well will you perform in a boss encounter in GW2 without the right gear? I’ve spent a lot of time in GW2 thinking through my gear and optimizing it. Gear and their stats play the same role in GW2 as in WoW. Silly rotations? Can you give me an example of a silly healer rotation?

Rotations in WoW for tanks and dps are essentially the same as those in GW2. Let’s take dps for example. Your rotations are priority based. You use your highest dps skills on CD in preference to available lower dps skills or auto-attacks. Additionally, you use CC as needed or assigned. The use of skills in both WoW and GW2 are the same. And, to the extent rotations exist in WoW, they exist in GW2.

This is what bothers me in the discussion and what I’m objecting to. I’m not supporting the trinity. I’m opposing irrational and factual incorrect statements by those opposing the trinity.

Oh man, you couldn’t be further from correct if you tried. The absolute worst way to use your skills in GW2 is off cooldown. As mentioned, skills have multiple effects, especially many of those that apply damage in addition to other effects. Mesmer great sword is a good example. There are no rotations, it’s all situational. GS2 will buff allies on the bounces, you may want to wait a moment for an ally to get in range, or an additional foe to get close to share some of the damage with. GW3 removed a buff on hit as well as does damage, so if you see a foe that gets a periodic regen buff you may want to keep GS3 in your pocket and use it to remove that buff. GS4 is the little crippling phantasm dude, who also does nice damage. You may want to start with that but when it’s off CD you may want to hold it until after a shatter to help keep cripples up. GS5 is a damaging knockback. Silly to use it if you’re out of range or if you’re already increasing distance from a foe. Basically, there are no rotations in GW2 if you’re using your skills properly. You can try to force a rotation off cooldown if you want, you have that freedom, but your effectiveness will plummet.

WoW, on the other hand, is entirely rotation based. My marksman hunter and pally tank lived and died by the rotations (and Recount). If you strayed even a bit off rotation your dps would drop, threat would drop, etc. Huge HUGE difference in combat styles. So many raid fights in WoW I’d barely ever look at the fight itself… it was all watching things like Recount (dps and threat meters) and watching the skillbar to hit a skill next on rotation as soon as it was available.

I don’t miss that, not in the least.

Volkon keeps putting into words what I can only think of thx again mate yours is better than my this is why you’re playing it wrong it has a lot of explanation in it.
yes last reply I just had to give kudos to volkon

I understand that folks love WoW’s combat, but I’d prefer that GW2 stick with the system it advertised and that I bought it for.

I liked healing in other games, but I also like the way that this game does things, and would prefer that it stay as it is. <3

Latinkuro.9420:

I object your honor !
you say rotations in GW2 are the same as in wowask games ? seriously this alone is insane just to say it.

you say: You use your highest dps skills on CD in preference to available lower dps skills or auto-attacks and this is why you’re playing it wrong !

all skills in gw2 are optional and situational, trinity based games cannot say the same most of your skills follow a certain pattern and for the sake of rotations cannot be used whenever you feel like using it.

what I mean by the right gear is this, in gw2 you can go in with rare yellow gear and still come out on top because your skill makes up for the difference, in wowask trinity based game the fights are scripted to such an extend you will not succeed unless you have the right gear for that particular encounter it is the reason there is gear score and raiding tiers.

also I’m done replying to this thread !

it’s going nowhere, trinity addicted automatons will never ever understand the concept of freedom, why should they ? they’ve never had freedom before !

Making an assertion does not prove your case, sorry. If you have a GS warrior and your target is stationary you are playing the profession wrong if you are treating 100b as an optional skill—just the way it is. It is the same in WoW if you’ve got an free aimed shot up and you have LOS, you use it. For DPS, the game at it’s most basic level is about depleting a mobs hp as quickly as possible while maintaining yours. You do that by optimizing your DPS, using defensive skills as needed, and keeping out of the yucky stuff.

Let’s take a look at the logical fallacies in your argument. You mention “trinity addicted automatons”. I’d be opposed to the trinity too if it created automatons but that is a straw man. To tank, or dps, or heal requires the same skills as those required for good play in GW2. You have to know your class/profession, and respond to the flow of battle—situational awareness. There are no automatons among good players in a trinity-based game.

VOLKON.1290:

Raine.1394:

And, how well will you perform in a boss encounter in GW2 without the right gear? I’ve spent a lot of time in GW2 thinking through my gear and optimizing it. Gear and their stats play the same role in GW2 as in WoW. Silly rotations? Can you give me an example of a silly healer rotation?

Rotations in WoW for tanks and dps are essentially the same as those in GW2. Let’s take dps for example. Your rotations are priority based. You use your highest dps skills on CD in preference to available lower dps skills or auto-attacks. Additionally, you use CC as needed or assigned. The use of skills in both WoW and GW2 are the same. And, to the extent rotations exist in WoW, they exist in GW2.

This is what bothers me in the discussion and what I’m objecting to. I’m not supporting the trinity. I’m opposing irrational and factual incorrect statements by those opposing the trinity.

Oh man, you couldn’t be further from correct if you tried. The absolute worst way to use your skills in GW2 is off cooldown. As mentioned, skills have multiple effects, especially many of those that apply damage in addition to other effects. Mesmer great sword is a good example. There are no rotations, it’s all situational. GS2 will buff allies on the bounces, you may want to wait a moment for an ally to get in range, or an additional foe to get close to share some of the damage with. GW3 removed a buff on hit as well as does damage, so if you see a foe that gets a periodic regen buff you may want to keep GS3 in your pocket and use it to remove that buff. GS4 is the little crippling phantasm dude, who also does nice damage. You may want to start with that but when it’s off CD you may want to hold it until after a shatter to help keep cripples up. GS5 is a damaging knockback. Silly to use it if you’re out of range or if you’re already increasing distance from a foe. Basically, there are no rotations in GW2 if you’re using your skills properly. You can try to force a rotation off cooldown if you want, you have that freedom, but your effectiveness will plummet.

WoW, on the other hand, is entirely rotation based. My marksman hunter and pally tank lived and died by the rotations (and Recount). If you strayed even a bit off rotation your dps would drop, threat would drop, etc. Huge HUGE difference in combat styles. So many raid fights in WoW I’d barely ever look at the fight itself… it was all watching things like Recount (dps and threat meters) and watching the skillbar to hit a skill next on rotation as soon as it was available.

I don’t miss that, not in the least.

You probably aren’t aware that you are describing combat in WoW when you talk about combat in GW2. You are aware of buffs, use debuffs, use CC as needed and maybe pop a skill for a burn phase. In the meantime you optimize your DPS. Yes, I have a GS Mesmer at 80 that I love. You do use GS2/4 on cooldown. If you are not, you are not maximizing your dps and not playing the profession correctly. There are times when skills are saved for some reason, but the same is true in WoW. You haven’t described any distinctions that make GW2 gameplay essentially different from WoW. What you are describing on your Mesmer is how any class in WoW is played given the skills available.

Edit: BTW, Recount is not something you should be living or dying around, especially if you are tanking. That would be Omen. Recount is helpful to see how you stand among other dps or healers or to see who is largely afk.

Omega.1473:

Raine.1394:

That’s an easy one. They fulfill all the roles and don’t do any of them with any significance, except DPS. And, even that you gimp to the extent you go for support. I believe you’ve illustrated the problem the OP is suggesting that exists in the game. There are roles which are defined in GW2 but none of them feel significant beyond DPS. Again, roles in groups are hard-coded in humans. In order to fulfill a role and find it satisfying, it should be and feel significant.

I’m sorry, but you’re just incorrect here. I wish I had FRAPS or the like just to show how much I “gimp” these characters by speccing for support in the ways I do.

You’re criticizing the Altruistic Healing Guardian set. This is the build that people use at Fractals level 40 and its the reason that you see so many “Looking for 2 more Guardian/Warrior only”. I’d love to show you how my Ranger was able to go toe-to-toe at the Grenth temple while everyone else had to waypoint zerg while I kept the event alive and how the amount of control and support I was able to do, while still making respectable progress towards killing the priest, kept me and those with me alive.

Its not human nature to submit to having to fit into a niche. Its insecure people who look for a nice cubby hole. Smart, adaptable, creative people find their own way, buck the roles and decide how they want to do things on their terms. Roles are not an inherent thing, they’re a social construct of a society that has bred itself so that everyone “wants to feel needed”.

But, you just described a niche. People were looking for a guardian/warrior. Why? They filled the role (niche) that the team was seeking to be filled. It has nothing to do with insecurity, it has to do with what it means to be human.. I’ve given the examples over and over but I’ll do it again. Consider a football team, an army, or an operating room. Are these theaters populated by insecure people seeking a cubby hole? No, they are populated by highly trained professionals organized in the most efficient manner possible to create success. Smart, adaptable, creative people don’t find their own way in a group activity. Rather they organize in the manner most certain to successfully realize their objective. Maybe the noble savage sounds romantic to you, but humans, working together, are capable of so much more than savages.

Edit: And, no, I’m not criticizing the AH guardian. I actually play one in addition to other professions. Essentially same build as yours.

I’m truly getting sick of this.

Raine.1394:

But, you just described a niche. People were looking for a guardian/warrior. Why? They filled the role (niche) that the team was seeking to be filled.

No it doesn’t. It has to do with EFFECTIVENESS. Right now, in a group setting, Guardians and Warriors are simply more efficient and their traits have better synergy than most other classes. They have a larger number of team support abilities available while still retaining high DPS and durability.

It has nothing to do with any role that they play.

It has nothing to do with insecurity, it has to do with what it means to be human.. I’ve given the examples over and over but I’ll do it again. Consider a football team, an army, or an operating room. Are these theaters populated by insecure people seeking a cubby hole? No, they are populated by highly trained professionals organized in the most efficient manner possible to create success.

Lets use your examples:

Why football and not basketball? On the court, everyone is responsible for everything. Everyone needs to be able to shoot, pass, defend and block. In a pinch, a lot of players can swap coverage and take up a new spot when needed. Yes there are positions that emphasize individual strengths, but there isn’t a strict dependence where a point guard can’t function without a power forward. In basketball, there have been successful NCAA teams who have gone on to the final 4 lacking a number of “roles” and positions that most people would consider key to victory. A lot of teams lack a big man under the basket but instead they adapt to the situation and play a perimeter shooting game. A lot of teams lack the shooters so they opt for a passing heavy strategy with backside cuts and heavy drives.

What I’m trying to show is that not every sport has a strict division of labor like you’re arguing. Basketball is a perfect analogy of how GW2 works compared to football being more trinity based.

Military? Need we look back 150 years to the days where wars were won by massive lines of rank and file, identical soldiers wielding muskets? Preceded by massive lines of identical long bowman? Preceded by massive lines of pikemen? Preceded by phalanx formations of perfect equals? Not every efficient strategy requires a division of labor.

Also, you’re going to use surgery as an example? Seriously? There are number of distinct, minute jobs to be performed on different systems and portions of the human anatomy simultaneously. There’s only 1 right way to do things, its not like a passtime game. In no way is that analogous to anything discussed here.

Smart, adaptable, creative people don’t find their own way in a group activity. Rather they organize in the manner most certain to successfully realize their objective. Maybe the noble savage sounds romantic to you, but humans, working together, are capable of so much more than savages.

Yes, they organize in the manner most certain to succeed, WITH THE TOOLS PRESENTED TO THEM. The difference here is that you’re demanding specific, stringent, defined roles. A smart, adaptable, creative person looks at the random puzzle pieces that are presented to them and decides how to make that set of tools work for the system. The soulless dolt looks at the system and then back tracks to figure out what the most efficient means to the end.

Both methods get to the end. One’s fun and interesting and adaptive. The other is rote repetition and inflexibility.

Latinkuro.9420:

what I mean by the right gear is this, in gw2 you can go in with rare yellow gear and still come out on top because your skill makes up for the difference, in wowask trinity based game the fights are scripted to such an extend you will not succeed unless you have the right gear for that particular encounter it is the reason there is gear score and raiding tiers.

Oh, look, a healer in what would be less than Masterwork grade gear in that game http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVN96I_HFCM&list=UUL-EckqxMmCN6GiAc-VOQ0w . To put some context, the run was done to compare 2 different suboptimal sets, the other guy took 2 hours to complete the same dungeon. Tell me more about scripted fights in trinity games and how GW2 is soooo different…

IMHO: the supposed “three role system” is simply an exploit of a game play mechanic that is/was carried over from single player games. (why on earth would a NPC lock onto a single target in a MMO?)

If you really want to use an outdated exploit of a out of place single player game mechanic, there are already a large number of titles available that do that.

Personally, I play to the challenges, not the exploits.

Ugh, the entire point of this game is to NOT have that.

Omega.1473:

I’m truly getting sick of this.

Same. Do you remember the roles that guardians can play in GW2, one of them being “support”. Maybe the team needed more support and an AH guardian was exactly what was needed.. You previously argued that a support guardian was meaningful and viable. Now the profession is simply “effective”? C’mon this is GW2, it’s fine to have roles as long as they are not the trinity. They gave you the means of building a support heavy guardian, might as well play the role.

Love your trying to bend basketball to be other than role-based. The center, forward, guard thing should give you a clue if not simply watching it. The same players are either ranged or under the basket if not charging for a layup.. I could just as easily have used basketball as an example as football. Nice try though.

Military history? It’s where we get our notions of combat in games. There have generally always been ranged and melee. Artillery, archers, catapults, burning oil? Armies are organized by role and drilled to perform that role. You were a little weaker in countering this one.

Operating rooms? They are filled with people playing highly specific roles which they have spent years learning to perform in a standard way. Does that make them automatons?

You appeared to want to make a point with “WITH THE TOOLS PRESENTED TO THEM”. I don’t understand your distinction. Humans actually create the tools, they aren’t simply presented. If there is a need for a better tool, it will be created. But you say that I’m “demanding specific, stringent, defined roles”. I just gave you examples of how humans generally organize themselves in group activity. I’ve now shown you twice, is three times the lucky number?