Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

Your last P.P.S. is ruins your entire post and you should remove it. Just because someone is a fan boy or in fact someone disagrees with you doesn’t make their arguments fallacious. By dismissing their arguments before they can even make them, you’re weakening your own argument.

Why should ANYONE take you seriously if you go ahead and pretty much say anyone who’s a fan boy and disagrees with me is presenting a fallacious argument.

If your arguments are strong enough to stand on their own you shouldn’t need that line.

But do you have anything to add/detract or do you just want to pick at that one line like the rabid fanboys OP is talking about?

When i was still new to this game when i saw a champion enemy i used to be excited. I was doing everything in my power to take them down, trying to rally people and wondering why so many are not interested, it’s a champion afterall, sure is hard to kill but in every game hard to kill mobs have great loots right? Well not in this one.
As time progressed i realized that getting same loot from hard to kill mobs as from the trash mobs was not the result of my bad luck, it just how game was designed, then i understood why people were so unwilling to fight them, those mobs are not worth fighting.
From this point i started avoiding any hard fights that came my way, why would i waste my time and risk repairs for nothing?
Unfortunatelly as time progresses this game gets more and more mobs that are not worth fighting. Spiders at mellandru, spiders at grenth, illusions on lyssa including champion gorilla which is tougher than Lyssa herself, big ugly undead at eye of zhaitan who one hit kills everyone and so many more.
Why would i want to fight mobs that will give me no loot and no xp, or loot not worth the effort?
This game has so much content that is not worth doing it’s just sad. Events for 1s 80copper as reward? No thank you. Most dungeons with few silver and greens and blues as rewards? Lol just no.
Then we have Anet nerfing all possible farm spots and telling us this game is not about grind, and just as i’m about to believe them i look at requirements for legendaries, or even the latest live event with click 300 this and 300 that and while you’re at it also 200 this and i realize this game is as much about grind as any korean mmo i ever played.
Currently player who wants to make gold has only 3 possibilities in front of him. Buy it with gems, farm world bosses, or run CoF till his eyes bleed. All except first one seem like a grind to me.

Brutal Arts.6307:

Vayne.8563:

Your last P.P.S. is ruins your entire post and you should remove it. Just because someone is a fan boy or in fact someone disagrees with you doesn’t make their arguments fallacious. By dismissing their arguments before they can even make them, you’re weakening your own argument.

Why should ANYONE take you seriously if you go ahead and pretty much say anyone who’s a fan boy and disagrees with me is presenting a fallacious argument.

If your arguments are strong enough to stand on their own you shouldn’t need that line.

But do you have anything to add/detract or do you just want to pick at that one line like the rabid fanboys OP is talking about?

I think he did indeed add to the conversation. He told the OP that he thought the conversation was moot if the OP planned on dismissing anyone who disagreed with him.

Very well said Vayne. +1 for you. I would add that if someone disagrees with a person that has an issue with the game, it does not make them a ‘fan boy’ or and ‘Anet groupie’.

I didn’t agree with many of the things the OP said, but he stated things in a non-confrontational manner. Until his last P.P.S. He didn’t present his arguments in a way that suggested that it was everyone else’s opinion too.

I think what Vayne was trying to tell him that his arguments were valid from his point of view until his last remark. A person cannot invite honest feedback on his or her post if he or she intends to exclude people that do not agree with them.

I feel differently about many things the OP said, but I support the way he presented his concerns until the end and then it was ruined for me.

Brutal Arts.6307:

But do you have anything to add/detract or do you just want to pick at that one line like the rabid fanboys OP is talking about?

I just looked at those two last lines and decided that the post is not even worth reading.
1. The OP itself doesn’t want it to be taken seriously, so I’m guessing a troll post?
2. If you’ll say anything against it you’re a fanboy, so what’s the point in even critiquing it?

KillerLilly.5830:

P.S. Don’t take me too serious because i wont take you as well.
P.P.S. Plz do not reply if you’re a fanboy with falacious arguments.

Does this mean haters and trolls with fallacious arguments are welcome to reply? What about fanboys with sound arguments? I’m not clear on the rules you’ve dictated to us on someone else’s forum, so please clarify.

I agree with Vayne (this happens all too often for my comfort these days) on your postscripts. And, also would disagree with your dire tone in places. I really don’t think that Anet is completely detached from reality. They certainly could use some better reality-testing skills but I wouldn’t go so far as to dismiss them entirely.

On your points, I have broad agreement with them all. Anet started with a strong DNA in the form of their manifesto and I believe we’ve seen some mutations since 11/15 of last year. I still think that GW2 is one of the best games I’ve played and I believe that Anet wants to succeed in producing a great game. Considered at launch, I would say that it’s the best MMO that I have ever played. The challenge has come in in managing the game over time. I wish them success and believe it’s possible for them to succeed.

I’m sorry, I don’t really understand your point about ascended items. I’m guessing you are talking about a possible “gear treadmill”. Ascended items are in fact better then exotics. There is no “illusion” of being better; numbers don’t lie, berz stated ori earings come with 6% crit damage, ascended have 7%. So stat for stat ascended items don’t equal nothing.

Precursors and legendaries are equal to exotics, but once again the graphics and effects are worth it to some players. Many people enjoy the fact that it doesn’t take months of dedicated time to get geared up, making the game more about the player and less about how many raids you have been on. Others are motivated to earn rare things like the current legendaries simply because they like the graphic, or want the prestige of having one; not because they want to have a stat advantage.

KillerLilly.5830:

Anet doesn’t wish us to grind but if you want an Ascended you have lots of options, but all mean to grind whether by grinding dailys, grinding Badges, grinding FotM or Guild Missions. Main thing is, you have to be in game to spend and give it visibility. The more time you’re in game, more needs you have.

What would you suggest, the less time you play the more you have? Should we just be handed ascended items for logging OUT? The idea of multiple paths was to give players options as to how they gain things, making it feel a little less “grindy”. The game would be pointless (literally) if there were no rules or set paths to progress. Rather then your standard MMORPG play line going from Point A—-b—-Complete, A-net has given players, point a——b/b2/b3/b4 —--Complete. How is this a bad thing?

KillerLilly.5830:

No one is capable of doing anything or to be able to purchase anything by farming Pourous Bones. Or chests full of blues and greens. Champion’s, Veterans and such giving out nothing is very common. Reduced drops or none are very common. Junk is common.
So, if you don’t get drops what do you do? Continue to farm, in that illusion that it will be the next drop the one to compensate all your ‘losses’. But it will never come.

I don’t think anyone would ever bother trying to farm porous bones… Chests full of blues and greens is common, which is probably why they are called common drops, as opposed to rare +. No drops or junk from mobs being common is for lack of a better word COMMON in EVERY MMO. How many MMOs have you played and got the best drops commonly?

If you don’t get the best drops, what I do is continue to play farm/play. If you have a negative attitude about it, of course things will always seem worse. If drops really “never come” then how are people making money and getting items? I will admit the RNG can be a harsh, but that’s kind of par for the course with RNG.

One thing I do agree with you on though is the champ drops, vets not so much. Champions take a bit of time, and are suppose to be fun encounters. A-net has said they are working on improving champion drops to make then “more desireable to fight” A lot of the world events have had daily chests added which is a good step! Just some of the champs really could use a bit of a drop increase. Vets I really don’t think need to drop any better, they are extremely easy for most players and really do not merit additional rewards.

KillerLilly.5830:

How are people supposed to farm/craft/trade, if there isn’t mats available?

Why do you think mats aren’t available? Mats certainly seem available to me, they drop, and are sold on the TP constantly. Open the BLTP and type in vial, I see TONS of blood, do that with almost any other mat ===> same result.

KillerLilly.5830:

Besides other useless items on GemStore, what else is left? Space, inventory and bank space. Who doesn’t need inventory and bank space? How to expand? And the main question is, if i bought a game B2P, why shouldn’t i have lots of space?

Many people enjoy the “for fun” items in the gem store, take a look at how popular the swim wear idea is (I highly doubt we will see battle read bikinis any time soon). Then we have the toys like dances, boxes, and costume battle stuff. Which seem mildly popular. I can’t forget the new horn (though some days in LA when someone is mashing their highest octave note I wish I could). Many players enjoy the just for fun items, they don’t need stats or an in game advantage, so to you what is useless to another may be fun!

As for the inventory space, you start with a lot of space… You can buy more if you want it. you can have 80 slots on a character without EVER buying an expansion to their inventory.

From what I can see, most of your post is complaining about a lack of stat improving gear.To be honest, if you are looking for a gear treadmill game GW2 might not be the game for you.

Think i was misinterpreted or i wasn’t clear on my intention when i said or wanted to say that usual comments like ‘get out of here’, ’ leave the game’ or ’you’re dellusional’ or whatever from what i like to call a typical fanboy that presents no arguments besides those. will refrase it.

Hi, i can agree completely with the OP! Coming from playing gw1 from start, to gw2 thru beta till now, Gw2 has become a disappointment to me. I play wvw 85% of the time but the time I am in pve land is just really laughable how broken the AI is of all the npc s in the game, sure the game is beautiful, but the level of play is tilted to the lvl of preteen ablitily. Elite world bosses that when they fight, basically do thier animation an make alot of sound an stand there till killed. An the amount of effort a person would have to put in to get a legendary weapon is a big investment, but just for the cosmetic trail it leaves behind you an no benifit in stats in anyway, what a time waste imho! The op correctly states how broken an no reward the loot system is. Got to love having a 1 in 1.0 x -e^25 chance of a precurser drop! If trying to get every cosmetic skin in the game is your thing, an spending real money to do so, then enjoy the “grind” doing it. Gw2 is all about gettin people to have to spend real money in game transactions. From wvw there have been so many broken aspects of the game, falling thru the ground, flight hacks to steal the orbs, removing orbs from game an never replacing with anything else, a completely useless party an comander system, a flag in south east wvw borderlands maps that has never had its capture ring fixed, the skill lag that make large engagements of forces unplayable other than hiting your autoattack skill over an over, an even that mostly doesnt even go off. A skill system that completely stops build diversity. In many ways Gw2 is a step back in game progression. There has been alot of enjoyment playing gw2 but it has came from the comaradery of the friends an guildies i play with, not that of a truely good game design. As this was the only game that interested me, an out in the market place for the last year is the reason i have stayed around, but till a expansion happens Gw2 can take its place along with the other retired games on my hard drive!

Mirta.5029:

I just looked at those two last lines and decided that the post is not even worth reading.

I scrolled down as well and realized this was a “I am bored, I quit” post.

I can’t believe people actually think farming/grinding was diminished by Anet because it went against the game philosophy of GW2. I would love to see the spreadsheet on how much more gold was bought as DR was added and farming/grinding were X out in the game.

Brutal Arts.6307:

But do you have anything to add/detract or do you just want to pick at that one line like the rabid fanboys OP is talking about?

It’s faux outrage. It’s not like they’d take the post seriously if those lines weren’t included, since it is severely critical of the game; these same people discredit or sarcastically dismiss meaningful, matter-of-fact critiques. If someone can’t get over two lines to critique the rest, then that says more about that person than it does about the OP. (And, no, I don’t agree with the OP’s post.)

Guns and Giblets.9308:

It’s faux outrage. It’s not like they’d take the post seriously if those lines weren’t included, since it is severely critical of the game; these same people discredit or sarcastically dismiss meaningful, matter-of-fact critiques. If someone can’t get over two lines to critique the rest, then that says more about that person than it does about the OP. (And, no, I don’t agree with the OP’s post.)

Right, and the OP threw the last two lines to bait out the fanboys. This says that the OP is obviously not seriously interested in good discussion by tossing out an obviously inflammatory statement.

Ursan.7846:

Right, and the OP threw the last two lines to bait out the fanboys. This says that the OP is obviously not seriously interested in good discussion by tossing out an obviously inflammatory statement.

It was inflammatory and should be removed. I can’t, however, discern from what he wrote as to his motives, whether a poor choice of words or a deliberate attempt to get under the skin of others. That much will become clearer if people interact with his post instead of finding excuses to dismiss it entirely.

I pretty much don’t agree with 90% of the post, but I do agree that champion mobs should be more rewarding. I don’t even know the point of doing them or veteran mobs anymore, besides if the daily requires it. Their rewards compared to regular mobs are indistinguishable.

Well with the current state of the cash shop and RNG, the players are now forced to wonder what the difference is between buying cash —> gems —> gold and just buying gold. Was that something ANet factored in when they nerfed farming with DR?

“we removed huge amounts of bots without any foresight on what that would do to a game economy”

..

“slightly before that, we nerfed drop rates and didn’t bring them back up after we banned the bot accounts”

..

“T6 mats and lodestones now available in the cash shop”.

Resonance.4216:

Well with the current state of the cash shop and RNG, the players are now forced to wonder what the difference is between buying cash —> gems --> gold and just buying gold. Was that something ANet factored in when they nerfed farming with DR?

Because the existence of an intermediate currency allows for a fluid exchange based on the scarcity of said intermediate currency.

The exchange isn’t static. If there’s lots of gold in the economy, gems will become more expensive (more people converting gold -> gems). If there’s less gold in the economy, gems will reflect player’s purchasing patterns and become cheaper (less people converting gold -> gems.). Gems and its scarcity exists as a base for the calculation of this exchange ratio.

Resonance.4216:

“T6 mats and lodestones now available in the cash shop”.

You’re making an assumption that every player in the game wishes to purchase and consume T6 mats/lodestones. This is not true, as can be seen the sheer existence of these materials listed on the TP for sale. People forget that rising costs of materials also benefits the sellers, who are also players. Overall, I imagine that increased price of materials have negligible impact on gem purchases, as detailed as follows (if you’re interested.)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Higher-prices-on-TP-more-Gem-purchases/first

Lucyfer.9517:

When i was still new to this game when i saw a champion enemy i used to be excited. I was doing everything in my power to take them down, trying to rally people and wondering why so many are not interested, it’s a champion afterall, sure is hard to kill but in every game hard to kill mobs have great loots right? Well not in this one.
As time progressed i realized that getting same loot from hard to kill mobs as from the trash mobs was not the result of my bad luck, it just how game was designed, then i understood why people were so unwilling to fight them, those mobs are not worth fighting.
From this point i started avoiding any hard fights that came my way, why would i waste my time and risk repairs for nothing?
Unfortunatelly as time progresses this game gets more and more mobs that are not worth fighting. Spiders at mellandru, spiders at grenth, illusions on lyssa including champion gorilla which is tougher than Lyssa herself, big ugly undead at eye of zhaitan who one hit kills everyone and so many more.
Why would i want to fight mobs that will give me no loot and no xp, or loot not worth the effort?
This game has so much content that is not worth doing it’s just sad. Events for 1s 80copper as reward? No thank you. Most dungeons with few silver and greens and blues as rewards? Lol just no.
Then we have Anet nerfing all possible farm spots and telling us this game is not about grind, and just as i’m about to believe them i look at requirements for legendaries, or even the latest live event with click 300 this and 300 that and while you’re at it also 200 this and i realize this game is as much about grind as any korean mmo i ever played.
Currently player who wants to make gold has only 3 possibilities in front of him. Buy it with gems, farm world bosses, or run CoF till his eyes bleed. All except first one seem like a grind to me.

Yep this is why I am looking forward to other games…hell I even redownloaded GW1 to play!
There is 0 risk vs reward in GW2 that is engaging.

I have been very critical of the technical problems that this game has but risk vs reward has to be the number one issue of not wanting to play anymore. It really is too bad because this game has SOOO much potential to be amazing but falls short too often.
Where is my challenging content? Hit a dragon toe to get terrible rewards? What dungeon besides CoF1 is worth doing(I don’t even do it at all).

I really hope instead of the next installment of scooby doo living story we get some permanent content akin to FoW/UW/DoA/Urgoz/Deep/ that are not only challenging but offer some good rewards to make the game worthwhile.

If only GW2 forums had a ignore feature (not intended for op)

to the op, I can sum an answer up for you nice and quick…welcome to b2p/f2p mmo model, GW2 does this model the best, go ahead and try other f2p/b2p they don’t even compare.

Gemstore/buygold>everything else

I hate the idea of living story in some ways. It makes for less permanent content and more content geared towards people who play every single day. I for one do not play this game everyday. So having content that isn’t permanent isn’t a good thing for me, but I’m not alone. I wish the living story would continue and evolve the world, but I want it to be permanent in some parts too.

Aevic.9675:

I hate the idea of living story in some ways. It makes for less permanent content and more content geared towards people who play every single day. I for one do not play this game everyday. So having content that isn’t permanent isn’t a good thing for me, but I’m not alone. I wish the living story would continue and evolve the world, but I want it to be permanent in some parts too.

It is becoming more permanent.

The scavenger hunt (small) and the new jumping puzzle are staying from the sky pirates patch as permanent content. They also said they plan on making the more popular temporary dungeons a part of fractals (so Molten Facility and Aetherblade Retreat) as well as overhauling FotM rewards overall.

This essentially means that all the things coming from this patch (except for the quick conclusion instance after the dungeon) will become permanent at some point, though we may need to wait a little bit for Aetherblade Retreat to come back.

Right now the main reason I’m not even trying to get a Legendary is because there is no real upgrade to them.. Every single tier your stats increase so why shouldn’t legendaries do so too? I mean it is the next tier isn’t it? Don’t get me wrong, the aesthetics of it are beautiful and they are reason enough to go for them, but it’s not for everyone. I really don’t think increasing the stats by a little will collapse the game in any way.

And yes, all champion’s of every level need better rewards.

They fixed world bosses rewards, now time to get them champions right too!

Brutal Arts.6307:

Vayne.8563:

Your last P.P.S. is ruins your entire post and you should remove it. Just because someone is a fan boy or in fact someone disagrees with you doesn’t make their arguments fallacious. By dismissing their arguments before they can even make them, you’re weakening your own argument.

Why should ANYONE take you seriously if you go ahead and pretty much say anyone who’s a fan boy and disagrees with me is presenting a fallacious argument.

If your arguments are strong enough to stand on their own you shouldn’t need that line.

But do you have anything to add/detract or do you just want to pick at that one line like the rabid fanboys OP is talking about?

I didn’t comment on the body of the post, because of the last line. Because the OP is going to dismiss anything against what was said as just being the ravings of a rabid fan boy, I don’t see why I should consider the rest of the post with any degree of seriousness.

jheryn.8390:

Brutal Arts.6307:

Vayne.8563:

Your last P.P.S. is ruins your entire post and you should remove it. Just because someone is a fan boy or in fact someone disagrees with you doesn’t make their arguments fallacious. By dismissing their arguments before they can even make them, you’re weakening your own argument.

Why should ANYONE take you seriously if you go ahead and pretty much say anyone who’s a fan boy and disagrees with me is presenting a fallacious argument.

If your arguments are strong enough to stand on their own you shouldn’t need that line.

But do you have anything to add/detract or do you just want to pick at that one line like the rabid fanboys OP is talking about?

I think he did indeed add to the conversation. He told the OP that he thought the conversation was moot if the OP planned on dismissing anyone who disagreed with him.

Very well said Vayne. +1 for you. I would add that if someone disagrees with a person that has an issue with the game, it does not make them a ‘fan boy’ or and ‘Anet groupie’.

I didn’t agree with many of the things the OP said, but he stated things in a non-confrontational manner. Until his last P.P.S. He didn’t present his arguments in a way that suggested that it was everyone else’s opinion too.

I think what Vayne was trying to tell him that his arguments were valid from his point of view until his last remark. A person cannot invite honest feedback on his or her post if he or she intends to exclude people that do not agree with them.

I feel differently about many things the OP said, but I support the way he presented his concerns until the end and then it was ruined for me.

Yep, I thought the OP’s arguments were for the most part valid and I felt the last line undermined the rest of the post.

Thanks for wording it that way. It’s exactly what I meant.

Wetpaw.3487:

If only GW2 forums had a ignore feature (not intended for op)

to the op, I can sum an answer up for you nice and quick…welcome to b2p/f2p mmo model, GW2 does this model the best, go ahead and try other f2p/b2p they don’t even compare.

Gemstore/buygold>everything else

Actually STO does this one best simply because there’s like 4 easy to find/build in game currencies. Not so easy that people can purchase anything but easy enough that a week usually is all that’s needed for the things people desire the most.

They also don’t limit loot, highest tier stuff drops all the time from regular activities, and they are doing something that no other game is doing right now, guild (fleet) gear, some of the best gear comes from the fleet which each member contributes to building and improving upon which in turn gives a currency called fleet credits that can purchase top end gear and enhancements. It’s seemless so you don’t even notice you’re doing it and you can do it solo, unlike the forced grouping “every guild must be online at the same time for everthing” GW2 currency for their guild items.

The OP is right, the reason why games no longer use the RNG focus is due to it’s unreliable nature. You have to grind when RNG is in place. There is no other choice. Right now I’m just grinding my dailies because there’s literally nothing for me to buy with laurels cept crafting bags due to the extreme shortage on T6 mats for anyone not wearing 300% or more MF or not hit with permaDR all the time. And I don’t even want a legendary but in order to afford anything I have to sell something. It’s turned into a job.

I hope their rewards patch is soon I do.

Love the tactics people try to use to justify their own problems of “not being accepted” as the problem of the OP that the very nature of him not wanting people to post negative comments on his thread somehow invalidates his well thought out post. That’s a strawman and a weak argument not all of the posts on these forums are for the fanboy vultures to chew on some of them are actually just for the devs to read and listen to their consumer base. Just because you don’t have the same view doesn’t mean the OP is in any way wrong or their views, on how the game mechanics are presently, inaccurate. Amazes me people really think 1 sentence makes the whole thing fictitious especially from people who’ve made broad statements that they don’t care about the rewards system they’re only there for the “fun”.

Aevic.9675:

I hate the idea of living story in some ways. It makes for less permanent content and more content geared towards people who play every single day. I for one do not play this game everyday.

It’s not a matter of making content for people who play every single day; rather, it’s a strategy to keep people playing more often, and to concentrate people in a few areas.

If the Aetherblade dungeon were permanent, a few people would try to play there, figure out if it’s somewhere better to farm than CoF01 or not, and if not everyone would leave it alone to rot. The few players who actually wanted to give it a try would have a hard time finding groups.

With the limited duration, more people are going to check the dungeon now, since they are (in theory) not having a chance to do so later. A lot of people will try the new dungeon, making group finding for it easier (even with the lack of a decent LFG feature in game). It also adds a sense of novelty to the game for those who just check what’s happening once in a while.

People keep saying that the only way to have a community in a MMO is to keep people addicted to grind. That’s not true, though – the scope of players willing to fall for the Skinner rat box trick isn’t that great. Another way to keep people playing is by periodically adding more content to the game, so players have a reason to come back. Adding incremental pieces of content risks fragmentating the community too much, but if every single month there’s one activity where most of the playerbase is meant to go (the Molten dungeon, Southsun, now the Aetherblade dungeon), returning players who join the “area of the month” will find a vibrant community waiting for them.

The irony is that ArenaNet probably realizes this, but they still keep the game filled with grind :-P

Okay OP the new PPS is better than the last, but of course, who gets to judge which arguments are ignorant. It’s like saying if you think an argument is ignorant than it must be…which is still offensive…but it’s better than it was…so I’ll reply to the post now.

I get exactly what you’re saying about the whole ascended gear/legendary thing. This game has a problem, and the problem is, it’s not really made for people who are goal-oriented to the exclusion of all else. I understand you play this way, but not everyone is going to.

I like having smaller more easily attained goals, rather than longer goals (though I find a mix of both best). So with the living story I have 2 week goals (or a month or whatever) and with the legendary I have the longer goal that doesn’t consume me. It’s fine. I’ll get my second legendary eventually. Same with gearing up my guys in ascended gear. I’ll get it when I get it.

This is the best attitude to approach the game with. For those who really want to be constantly challenged, this game probably doesn’t provide enough variety. But for those of us who want the occasional challenge, mixed in with a beautiful world that we enjoy exploring or even just re-experiencing, it’s a different story.

Progression is what a lot of people crave in MMOs, but in the old days, it wasn’t this way. In older RPGs your progress was determined by where you were in the story, not what gear you had. And I think that’s what Guild Wars 2 is trying to recapture (with mixed success I might add).

I think certain player types love this game, because there’s no other MMO really like it, and other player types don’t love this game because they’ve come to expect other experiences from MMOs, and they’re really not equipped to see what Anet is trying to do.

My thing is, by starting with pen and paper RPing many years ago, this is more like that experience to me than any other MMO has been. Since that experience is what I’ve been looking for, this is a good (though not a great) MMO for me. I assume it will get better over time as well.

In the mean time, it’s not the game that’s deficient and it’s not that you’re wrong. It’s the compatibility between your desires for a game and what the developers are actively trying to do.

This is why so many people do end up saying things like, “this game is not for you.” I’m not saying it, but maybe now you see the reasoning.

not sure what the OP is going about.

i’m still playing guild wars 2 everyday casually (around 1 – 3 hours per day) and enjoying it.

Progression

• What GW2 is was well defined before the start of the game. There is a gear/progression plateau and personal progression past that point is aesthetic (titles, armor and weapon skins) as it was in GW. So the entire first bit of the post about personal evolution immediately tells me the OP didn’t understand the game he was playing to begin with.

Then there is the bit about grinding.

• This one again illustrates a misunderstanding of the game. There are three ways to accomplish the daily. WvW, PvE, PvP. Also, WvW and PvE count towards one monthly and PvP has its own. Add to that that you can pick and choose which categories you complete, allowing you to plot a daily that can be finished in little to no time by doing whatever activity you prefer (dungeons, map completion, exploration, tournaments, hot join PvP, roaming or zerging in WvW).

• Fractal rewards not grinding by way of the daily chest. The first run of an even numbered Fractal over 10 a day essentially counts as two runs. Keep in mind you are doing this for rings. Either drops or pristine relics to choose a ring. So you are guaranteed to get the ring you want after 10 runs, assuming you aren’t already swimming in rings for your main and alts by then. Those 10 runs can be done in your own time. Once a week, twice a week, a lvl thirty, twenty and ten done in one day. There are 20 permutations of Fractals if I recall, so ten of the same run concurrently is very unlikely. Now, is this “grindable”? Yes. Do you have to grind? No. Fact of the matter is ten runs of 1/9th of a dungeon to get a best in slot item of your choosing, on top of random other best in slot items and relics for a best in slot back-piece or bags that would otherwise cost 11+ gold, that can be done at your whimsy without concern of being locked out of other content for not having that item, is an amazing system. Exercise some control over yourself and your have-to-have-it-now attitude and you avoid it becoming repetitive and tedious.

• Guild content. You can’t grind guild missions. This boils down simply to that aforementioned have-to-have-it-now as fast and with as little effort and commitment as possible attitude. In the same breath that the OP claims there is no personal evolution or progression after ascended, he accuses a non-grindable by design system of being grindy and taking time in game to achieve. There are a possible six commendations to earn per week and every activity you do to earn them is totally different. The ascended item requires 12. So it’s another BIS item earned at a minimum of two weeks, or six weeks if you just do Guild Bounties, which will still be different each time.

Point of all that is that claiming there is no personal evolution or content after you have all BIS equipment, and then saying BIS equipment takes too much time to get between too little content (20 variations of Fractals, Fractal daily, PvP dailies, PvE/WvW dailies, PvP Monthly, WvW Monthly, Badges of Honor, Guild Bounties/Rushes/Challenges/Puzzles), is a counter intuitive statement. The activities you can pursue to make progress towards ascended gear can encompass just about everything in the game. Making it easier to get would mean reaching the plateau quicker, which would mean you would be dissatisfied with personal progression unless they added a new tier of gear and then…you have every other MMO ever with a vertical gear climb. Which is whhhhyyy (to bring this around full circle)…progression after you reach the gear plateau is based on aesthetics.

This is already lengthy and its late but I wont go into the economy or storage space and the absolute nerve of a company trying to make money to pay their employees and keep their game running while also offering a way for people to get the same stuff without spending another cent after box sale. Other than to mention that you get five free inventory tabs and max bags are 20 slots, giving each character a possible 100 slots of storage on them without buying tabs.

As a whole. PvE came 2nd to what is known as WvW. Not everyone WvWs or PvEs or PvPs. You have a mixture of every type of player here.

When you think of spending time into a game, you feel like you deserve upgrades as you progress right? The biggest… and I mean biggest issue this game has is Gear and it’s stats. The level that gear progresses all through Ascended is a joke. Ascended for an example: Is suppose to be the BEST quality this game has to offer. When comparing it to an Exotic…. it’s almost like saying we just bumped the stats of it by +1. The level of commitment, time and energy towards that piece feels almost meaningless. Stats sheet really do show how meaningless of a stat difference Ascended gear really are. Like someone stated earlier, Legendarys – Cosmetic waste of time. No real bonus to dps. So much time is spent on acquiring mats. For a weapon that produces the same numbers as an Exotic worth 4 gold on the Trade Market. I’m flabbergasted!

Progression in this game, just doesn’t feel like it, maybe cause it doesn’t exist? It truly is a GRIND fest with every piece of equipment/gear. From PvE to PvP for only Cosmetic Purposes. If I plan to grind out gear, I want to better my toons and make running Dungeons or WvW or PvP easier. That is part of the reason why many people play… to become the best, not only by SKILL but by Gear Progession… right?

I understand why Anet decided to make gear mainly cosmetic instead of actually real Gear Progression. To keep the game simple and balanced. To eliminate extra time required by the devs to “RE-Balance” the game every so often due to Gear Inflation. To me… it’s just being lazy. If an MMO is expected to last, there has to be Progression. Cosmetics won’t take this game all the way. Not even 10 months and yet so many people have stopped playing. I only wonder why……?

This progression ideology plays for both PvE and PvP. PvP has it’s own faults, again progression and the whole dang GRIND fest for more, you guessed it, Cosmetic Gear. Seeing Ascended/Legendary Gear stats…. is really shameful and discouraging for those who really are attempting to stand out and upgrade their DPS.

End of the day, I don’t worry to much about PvE or WvW. I may do a few Dung. Runs… or hit WvW really fast. I don’t feel the need to “Progress” in this game because my gear is just as equal as the next guy who spent his entire time Playing PvE with my Exotic Made equipment.

On the bright side of things, the game is free. I’m not gonna go into the whole trade market Gems philosophy cause honestly.. Anet needs to make some sort of Income from the players and this is there way of doing it OP.

Oh yes: Champions need more incentive for engaging. Can you imagine how many guilds/players would want to hit World Bosses/Champions as soon as they spawn if the incentive was there? Give us NEED to attack them. Otherwise they will continue to roam the plains freely…looking bored >.<

PvP is my home front. I just hope this whole gear thing is fixed in some sort of way or fashion.

Great post OP, totally agree. Its pretty hard not to see why this game is falling apart at the seams.. You pretty much wrote what i wrote a few months ago, and nothing has changed, i very much doubt it will until the game dies badly (worse than now i mean).

Anet know these issues exist and like it bleak and grindy.

The small group that pick apart you’re P.P.S is really all they’ve got, they know these issues exist they just blindly ignore them, possibly because they are paid too.

When I started playing this game one month after the launched and hype had died down, I was like amazed with the game. I was actually playing Diablo 3 when Guild Wars 2 launched. I was like “Meh”. Guild Wars? what the hell is this game? Looks crappy. (saw a few youtubes video). Didn’t like what I saw, so Diablo 3 for a month…. MAJOR GRIND fest on Diablo 3…….. I just uninstall after killing Diablo for the 10th time. Then looked around to see if there is any other game to play.
Guild Wars 2 popped back on the list. I saw Angry Joe biased review about it and said to myself. What the hell, and went and bought GW2. Download and started playing.
Roll an Ele…..
Randomly select a server and bam. It was fun playing for the first 3 months. Sept to November. Switched to another server because a friend is also playing. It was really fun that 3 months. After that…it got grindy. Yes, many of you may say you have a choice NOT to grind. I understand, but I still feel it was grindy. So, stopped for 3 months and only returned in Feb 2013. The fun was not there anymore, the grind was still there, then came Molten Alliance, it was fun but the content was too little. Then the boss room in the Molten Factory turns out to be like any other MMOs. Boss Rooms. Meh. Because many are so fanatical about exploits and cheaters. Duh. I argue we should have remove ranged weapons. The counter argument is that if the enemy can’t shoot or attack back, it is an exploit. Whatever, I have no problems with either. I even suggested that boss destroy the environment to compensate for these “exploit”. Like ramming the stairs like the one in AC.
WvW I rarely go in unless I find a good commander leading the map. Due to these commanders actually knows how to lead. And the zerging of outnumbering the enemies 10 to 1 makes WvW no fun. Not to mention the skill lag! All a server needs is to have 100 man zerg on each map and you can owned everything that moves.
I don’t PvP so, I have no comment about PvP issues or whatever.

Fractals is both fun and grindy. Yes, deny it all you want. It is A GRIND. Only differences with other MMO is choice. We can choose NOT to enter fractals ever. Still not much of a problem there.

Loot drop. It was bad from the day I played until now. I hate killing champions and veterans, because I get NOTHING from them most of the time. And the joke was, I got most of my rares and a couple of exotics from NORMAL mobs. Yes, I got many rares from hatchlings mobs! I even got one today while doing my dailies! Map boss loot drops are worst, I get blues (many) and greens most of the time. Yellows? Hardly. Only the extra chest recently will get anything. But why can’t they drop in the main chest? What is so hard in putting them in the main chest? That only the devs will know.

Anyways, I am considering to stop playing Gw2 soon. [Brutus talk]It’s not like I don’t like Guild Wars 2, it is just that I like to have fun more![/end Brutus talk]

Yeah, that is my experience and views on GW2 now.

Dante.1508:

Great post OP, totally agree. Its pretty hard not to see why this game is falling apart at the seams.. You pretty much wrote what i wrote a few months ago, and nothing has changed, i very much doubt it will until the game dies badly (worse than now i mean).

Anet know these issues exist and like it bleak and grindy.

The small group that pick apart you’re P.P.S is really all they’ve got, they know these issues exist they just blindly ignore them, possibly because they are paid too.

I know the issues, I don’t blindly ignore them. But the game is hardly dead. No game that updates every two weeks can be called dead. What is YOUR definition of dead.

Because in mine, dead games don’t have updates.

OP is hurt because gem prices are high, which is only because players are too cheap to buy them with cash and not enough of a cheat to convert to gold.

Even though this is a B2P game, you were always expected to use gems to support the game. It was known before launch to be the business model, however the gold>gem conversion was only implemented for people without the income levels to play a game (in effect, poor people who couldn’t pay a monthly fee either).

That said, the economy in this game is better than any other game I’ve played, with almost 0% inflation for almost half a year. That’s remarkable.

Try to deny the grind in a MMO is just silly, because there is no way around it. The grind or in general, the progression of yourself is the reason why you keep playing a game. To actually give an incentive to progress, the challenge-reward scale has to be fixed though. This means if I kill a champion or do a content that requires some more skill (eg. dungeons (except CoF)), I should be rewarded for it. Sadly this is not the case. Furthermore farming spots shouldn’t be nerfed in terms of loot, it would be better to actually just make it harder for players to farm these spots. These can be area effects or scale-up mob-strenght etc.

For EG: In GW1 they implemeted a counter for UWSC with SF-Sins. They placed enemies over the whole map who could hit through SF. Problem solved.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Try to deny the grind in a MMO is just silly, because there is no way around it. The grind or in general, the progression of yourself is the reason why you keep playing a game.

you know that works only if the game itself has a boring gameplay?

Grinding is the reason why you keep playing a BAD game

I’m reluctant to defend the game, though I do enjoy it. The last time I defended the game I received a warning from a moderator and a threat that my account will be locked. I realized it’s not up to me to argue with the slew of naysayers. Moderators seem to encourage the negativity here. I’m surprised Vayne hasn’t been perma banned and people like Nick and Dante aren’t given some kind of special forum status.

Torpian.9142:

I’m reluctant to defend the game, though I do enjoy it. The last time I defended the game I received a warning from a moderator and a threat that my account will be locked. I realized it’s not up to me to argue with the slew of naysayers. Moderators seem to encourage the negativity here. I’m surprised Vayne hasn’t been perma banned and people like Nick and Dante aren’t given some kind of special forum status.

I’ve never had a ban, but I’ve sure had a lot of infractions. I still think they need to make an achievement for that. lol

I think this is a very complicated topic. Every mmo by its nature is designed to be played indefinite. its impossible for any developer to produce more content than its consumed because it takes them weeks of work to create a single Dynamic event which takes us a few minutes to complete not to mention some people will skip it altogether. Bottom line at some point stuff has to be repeated.

Now what Gw2 does differently here in line with the “we do not want you to grind” vision is it gives tools to the players by which they can avoid grinding. But ultimately it depends on them. And this is not all great because players have to pay a price to avoid grinding in most cases and thats sacrificing efficiency which some players find very hard to do.

But let me be a bit more specific. Every MMO has to have its players repeat stuff while it is developing new content, its unavoidable. In Your typical MMO that means raids. Players are made to play the same raid over and over again to get a specific tier until they’re moved to a new tier and the cycle repeats. Content in guild wars 2 is designed in such a way so that as much as possible players are free to choose whatever they want to play and still progress towards their long term goal. If today I feel like playing in queensdale I can still make progress towards my legendary. How? Unidentified Dyes counts towards the gift of color. Money towards recipes. Karma towards a whole bunch of stuff. Exploration towards the gift of exploration etc.. etc..

Even if we take ascended gear. Sure it takes a lot of effort to get it but once again I can play whatever content I feel like doing and chances are it can get me closer to ascended gear. If I go to play in Queensdale doing dynamic events there is a good chance I can get my daily done or at least get it to a point where it takes me just a few minutes to finish it off. If I feel like doing WvW I can earn badges do the daily there and use that to earn my ascended gear. If I want to play group content there are guild missions. If I feel like dungeons there is FotM etc…

But like i said there is a price attached to this. If I grind my daily I will get it done in 30 minutes. If I just play whatever I feel like playing it will take hours. Is that a problem though? The other thing Gw2 does to lessen grind is make stuff optional so if it takes me 3 months to get a piece of ascended armor instead of a single month I dont really loose anything.

What I am trying to say is anet cant do miracles (at least I believe they cant) they cant avoid having people repeat content, what they can do and is exactly what they’re always trying to do is give people the choice on what content they wish to repeat rather then force people to repeat a specific thing over and over again. Unfortunately its also impossible to avoid having stuff that’s more efficient than other stuff. So if for example I want dragon coffers I could spend all day farming some dungeon speed run and use the money to buy a ton of coffers. It will feel extremely grindy after a week of that no doubt. But that would be the result of my personal choice. In truth I could have done many many different activities and still earned coffers. The game can give me the tools to avoid grinding but cant force me to make use of them.

I honestly believe if the game is grindy or not depends in most cases on how people choose to play it.

Mr Operator:

About your grind statement: My kid’s pretty clever too, but shiny things are enough for him to be preoccupied (atleast for a bit). bring out the next shiny thing and he’s pretty excited again lol.

Look, GW2 is nothing like some other cash shop games. some B2P games, in order to compete in the end game, you must cash shop. That doesn’t happen here. Gems r optional for aesthetics. The grind (for Ectos, 400+ mats, on TP) is affected by the cash shop . . . and which affects the economy. but there is nothing that tampers with build variety or profession balance that can be derived from an excess in gems. It’s not a bad thing, the economy is not broken. A vast majority of essential tokens/items can only be grinded for with the help of friends, and, you have the opportunity to make new friends this way, if you lost some in your guild.

But, I am not writing here to convince you to play the game. I am here to say I think the devs work hard to make things happen, but it’s happening on a profession-balance mechanic, creatively, way more than anywhere else. I play consistently in the mists and am having a blast, also I think the skill level is huge when you get to know several different professions and keep up with the trendy “flavors of the mo”. I like doing that, I feel like as the game evolves, I’m keeping in step and learning more too.

It’ just… I’m really surprised that the devs have juggled profession balancing and build variety in the mix of their long priority list FOR THIS LONG. I thought the point that the updates and tweaking to professions would be minimized would come sooner… but now we have a patch that is vastly changing some professions (by the sounds of it) That makes me nervous, and uncertain but well see, it’s a step that will be a bit risky but I think it’s a sign they are trying to advance the due date on this one. Hopefully this company can take hold of their own objectives for the professions and let it settle. regardless, Should see a peaking point that will leave professions in a fix position soon enough… Or see a large player base leave because the game wont form into a varied meta.

I’ve sat playing since launch. There’s been a lot of changes. But I can agree with something stated. The AI is “preteen” (lol). Seriously, though, some thing needs to be done in regards to AI… some kind of consistent aggro/pull mechanics would be awesome IMO. would make dungeons a hell of a lot easier to strategize on the player part and developer part. Hopefully when the profession balance, then AI can improve in the future.

LordByron.8369:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Try to deny the grind in a MMO is just silly, because there is no way around it. The grind or in general, the progression of yourself is the reason why you keep playing a game.

you know that works only if the game itself has a boring gameplay?

Grinding is the reason why you keep playing a BAD game

Then why there are 7 million ppl playing WoW? It is a grind too. Same goes for diablo.

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

LordByron.8369:

Empathetic Fighter.2065:

Try to deny the grind in a MMO is just silly, because there is no way around it. The grind or in general, the progression of yourself is the reason why you keep playing a game.

you know that works only if the game itself has a boring gameplay?

Grinding is the reason why you keep playing a BAD game

Then why there are 7 million ppl playing WoW? It is a grind too. Same goes for diablo.

WoW came out at a very specific moment in time, 8 years ago. With very little competition. There are probably as many people paying for a WoW sub to hang with their friends as there are people who actually enjoy the game. Many WoW players I know are bored and pay anyway. If a game like WoW was released tomorrow, it would probably take quite badly.

Anyway, Blizzard has HUGE amounts of money to advertise. I don’t see Guild Wars 2 commercial with William Shatner, Chuck Norris or Mr. T. A better question is why have 1.7 million people left WoW over a very short period of time.

Just a side observation:

I find it odd that the very same people who call working towards an aesthetic reward, such as a legendary weapon skin “and colossal waste of time” are the very ones who complain about how to go about getting them. Er, surely if it’s a waste of time and not worth the “grind”, then you wouldn’t bother? If you want them, then you obviously consider them worth the grind.

We can’t have it both ways. In a game that is all about customisation rather than stat increase, what did you really think you would be working towards? I like that the hard work gets put in towards customisation items. I was late to the game in any place, and I hate the thought of falling ever further behind as more and more levels of gear are put in place to ensure that I never finish the game.

Personally, I look at some of the legendary skins and think “eh? For the amount of time and effort and gold that will take?” and so the decision is simple. I make up my mind right then and there whether it’s worth it or not. If not, I can’t complain about not receiving a skin, can I? I didn’t put the work in, why should I be rewarded for not playing? But if it were stat increases, I would literally be obliged to work towards this in order just to be able to keep playing the game. No thanks.

Aevic.9675:

I hate the idea of living story in some ways. It makes for less permanent content and more content geared towards people who play every single day. I for one do not play this game everyday. So having content that isn’t permanent isn’t a good thing for me, but I’m not alone. I wish the living story would continue and evolve the world, but I want it to be permanent in some parts too.

I completely agree with this, and also I wish Anet would quit doing RNG boxes and just sell me individual skins for 800 gems straight up like they did on Wintersday. (except I didn’t buy those because they were UGLY)

It would also be nice if they added new armor and weapon skins to existing or new dungeons. SAB was amazing, and I love those skins, but it was completely different from normal gameplay. Would be nice to have new rewards from normal gameplay.

CrossedHorse.4261:

Just a side observation:

I find it odd that the very same people who … are the very ones who …

Not that I agree or disagree with the rest of your post, but why do so many people phrase their observations like this? Is it really the same person saying both things, or is it actually two different people saying two different things about the same topic in the same forum?

Xenon.4537:

CrossedHorse.4261:

Just a side observation:

I find it odd that the very same people who … are the very ones who …

Not that I agree or disagree with the rest of your post, but why do so many people phrase their observations like this? Is it really the same person saying both things, or is it actually two different people saying two different things about the same topic in the same forum?

Both. Sometimes I see the same person saying two contradictory things, or sometimes it’s the general consensus towards a particular matter. Generally, I notice a lot of the names besides certain complaints crop up besides other complaints that seem to directly contradict the thing they were claiming before. Does that help? :p