Guild Wars 2

The Comfy Chair.7265:

Every game is grind. Every. Single. One.

It’s always about refining and repeating your actions.

If you’re noticing it, then maybe it’s because you’re playing simply to get some kind of status symbol, or reward, rather than for the enjoyment you get from the game.

- Not just playing for reward, the rewards are smothered on your face. It’s made very explicit that you’re playing for them. Run around the world doing errands: BIG GOLDEN MEDAL appears on your screen and stays there until you click it. Kill a few critters: cling achievement unlocked. Whenever you kill a monster, there’s effect to some kind of progress bar. Gain stuff, unlock stuff, progress… that’s what this game is all about. That’s what is meant by grind.

Filaha.1678:

Like I said, which you both quoted and ignored, raid gear is only necessary if one cares about raiding, just as agony infusions are only necessary if one cares about fractals and Legendaries are only necessary if one cares about getting shinies.

By the logic of “It’s not mandatory if it’s not something you want”, then there is no such thing as mandatory grinding.

The problem is that Legendaries =/= Raid Gear. In the case of the latter you have to have it to succeed in many MMOs, otherwise you can not complete (or in some cases even enter) the raid content. In the case of Legendaries, you do not need them to complete or play any content in the game. They are nice to have but are totally unnecessary to play the higher levels of GW2.

Peace.

Castrin.8972:

Filaha.1678:

Like I said, which you both quoted and ignored, raid gear is only necessary if one cares about raiding, just as agony infusions are only necessary if one cares about fractals and Legendaries are only necessary if one cares about getting shinies.

By the logic of “It’s not mandatory if it’s not something you want”, then there is no such thing as mandatory grinding.

The problem is that Legendaries =/= Raid Gear. In the case of the latter you have to have it to succeed in many MMOs, otherwise you can not complete (or in some cases even enter) the raid content. In the case of Legendaries, you do not need them to complete or play any content in the game. They are nice to have but are totally unnecessary to play the higher levels of GW2.

Peace.

And raids are not a mandatory part of other MMOs.

Which is the point everyone keeps ignoring to point out that raid gear is mandatory to raid.

Raiding in other games results in raid gear, which is used to raid more. This point has been made to death. However, raid gear is not mandatory to enjoy the rest of the game, and is therefore not mandatory for someone who doesn’t want to raid.

By the same token, legendaries are not mandatory if you do not want to get legendaries or the shiniest things or all the achievements or whatever such goal may require them. If you do, however, they are mandatory.

But this all leads back to the argument: If raids are considered mandatory by people because they’re “The Goal” of the game, what is “The Goal” of GW2 if not to get the shiniest things?

IndigoSundown.5419:

Funny thing, I absolutely do not grind in GW2. When I play, I play as much or as little as I like, then stop if I get tired or am losing interest. GW2 is different enough from other MMO’s that I enjoy the game play. Other MMO’s, actually playing the game seems tedious after a certain point — which is usually about halfway through the leveling process.

There are long-term goals in GW2. Some players actually seem to like that sort of thing in an MMO. Others seem to want to get to the goal, but don’t like the process. For me, Ascended trinkets I can get just by playing as I like and being patient. Weapons and armor require crafting, which I find tedious and boring. So, no weapons or armor for me.

It’s a simple equation. If you choose to grind, you’ll experience grind. If you play for the goals that were put in for those who like to and want to “work” for a long-term goal, but don’t like the process, you will experience grind. This is true in any game. What GW2 has done is to allow you to choose that play-style if you want it, and to avoid it if you don’t with little to no impact on your ability to enjoy the game.

Take responsibility for your choices. If you’re grinding in this game, then you’re choosing to.

Well said, (and put in a much better way then I would have.) +1
I’ll add more to my earlier statement…

If I spend a few hours in Silverwastes, doing events, killing enemies, unlocking buried treasure boxes… am I grinding? Some could see it that way. I don’t.
More importantly, (and this is the important part here) there is nobody holding a gun to my head saying ‘You must farm Silverwastes or else!’
It’s not mandatory I be there. I am not losing out on anything if I go do something else. It’s my choice to do it or not as I see fit.
And that applies to /any/ part of this game…
To say that there is a required grind/treadmill in this game is nothing more then typical forum hyperbole.

Zenith.6403:

The Comfy Chair.7265:

Every game is grind. Every. Single. One.

It’s always about refining and repeating your actions.

If you’re noticing it, then maybe it’s because you’re playing simply to get some kind of status symbol, or reward, rather than for the enjoyment you get from the game.

- Not just playing for reward, the rewards are smothered on your face. It’s made very explicit that you’re playing for them. Run around the world doing errands: BIG GOLDEN MEDAL appears on your screen and stays there until you click it. Kill a few critters: cling achievement unlocked. Whenever you kill a monster, there’s effect to some kind of progress bar. Gain stuff, unlock stuff, progress… that’s what this game is all about. That’s what is meant by grind.

No, grinding is the act of doing the same content over and over and over and over again to gather resources or to hope to get that rare drop.

Naturally progressing in the game, via set (renown hearts/boss/LS/LW) or dynamic (group/champ) event content is not grind. If you do them like above you could consider them a bit grindy but again that’s due to repeating them ad nauseam.

Grinding is a player mindset more than anything but at least in GW2 it’s not the focus of the game.

Peace.

Filaha.1678:

And raids are not a mandatory part of other MMOs.

No, they are mandatory. Last I checked, raids also have story, lore, mechanics, bosses, in general CONTENT. If I don’t grind the early raids I can’t do the next raids, therefore I’m missing CONTENT. I’m missing story/lore, I’m missing actual boss fights and of course I’m missing the UNIQUE rewards that come from those high tier raids.

What am I missing if I don’t ever do high level FotM? Story, lore, mechanics are exactly the same between level 20 and any higher up. Mobs just get tougher and hit harder. As for rewards it’s arguable if high level FotM is even worth it, there is absolutely no UNIQUE reward from doing high level FotM, and even the chances of getting Fractal Skins aren’t exactly higher at higher levels, or at least high enough to be noticeable.

So while in both types of games they are not mandatory, you can’t compare a simple SKIN (that many people find ugly) with whole actual CONTENT. Not to mention, in raiding games, they release new Raids very often, so after a while you are far far behind and need to catch up.

Skin =/= Content
Grinding for skin =/= grinding for the ability to PLAY content

“….what is “The Goal” of GW2 if not to get the shiniest things?”

The “goal” of this game is really what you make of it. It’s your option to go after the “shiniest things”, some may have another goal in mind. Me personally, I don’t really have a goal except to kill off some time from my day and have a bit of fun doing it.

edit:forgot the other f in off….

Filaha.1678:

MachineManXX.9746:

There in NOTHING in this game that requires a Legendary. In other games, you must gear up in T1 raiding (which is a grind) to even get to see the next tier.

maddoctor.2738:

Legendary isn’t a gear treadmill. You are not required to have a legendary to do anything in the game, but in a raid game you need the previous tier raid gear to progress to the next.

Like I said, which you both quoted and ignored, raid gear is only necessary if one cares about raiding, just as agony infusions are only necessary if one cares about fractals and Legendaries are only necessary if one cares about getting shinies.

One of the biggest lies that raiders always use. Ok .. it is not necessary but it makes
you much stronger and so you can do other content faster and earn more gold
or whatever.

Its much like Pay2Win where you get the best available stats via real money.
If you not pay / raid you simply are a much worse player because your stats suck.

Castrin.8972:

Grinding is a player mindset more than anything but at least in GW2 it’s not the focus of the game.

Consider: The wardrobe was a big deal when it was put in.

Your rewards for doing dungeons are special skins. Your rewards for doing fractals are special skins. Your rewards for doing PvP are skins. Your rewards for completing the new content are skins. Your rewards for doing seasonal events, like Halloween, Christmas, and SAB, for example, are skins. Your rewards for doing WvW are nothing, unless it’s a tournament time, in which case you get, that’s right, skins.

So what is the focus of the game if not getting skins?

And how do you get the rarer skins, like legendaries, ascended, and things like Infinite Light without grinding, short of gem -> gold transfers?

maddoctor.2738:

No, they are mandatory.

Silly me. Here I was, thinking that I had enjoyed my time with WoW, SW:TOR, and FFXIV without setting foot in raids (except, fair enough, in Vanilla WoW, I did do Molten Core and was the first in my guild to get Anathema/Benediction).

Clearly I was mistaken, and I either actually hated my time, or had been doing raids unaware, possibly in my sleep or something.

Filaha.1678:

And raids are not a mandatory part of other MMOs.

Which is the point everyone keeps ignoring to point out that raid gear is mandatory to raid.

Raiding in other games results in raid gear, which is used to raid more. This point has been made to death. However, raid gear is not mandatory to enjoy the rest of the game, and is therefore not mandatory for someone who doesn’t want to raid.

By the same token, legendaries are not mandatory if you do not want to get legendaries or the shiniest things or all the achievements or whatever such goal may require them. If you do, however, they are mandatory.

But this all leads back to the argument: If raids are considered mandatory by people because they’re “The Goal” of the game, what is “The Goal” of GW2 if not to get the shiniest things?

In other games raids are the goal/endgame of that MMO so in that regard, since this is a discussion of endgame, raid gear is mandatory.

In regards to GW2 the endgame is what you decide it is. The developers have stated there is no endgame, not even collecting shinies. The game is open to whatever you think it is but as I noted before there is no need to have a Legendary to achieve any of the goals in the game … save for if one of your goals is to have a legendary. The game does not require legendaries to succeed at any of the content in and of it’s self.

Peace.

Filaha.1678:

Castrin.8972:

Grinding is a player mindset more than anything but at least in GW2 it’s not the focus of the game.

Consider: The wardrobe was a big deal when it was put in.

Your rewards for doing dungeons are special skins. Your rewards for doing fractals are special skins. Your rewards for doing PvP are skins. Your rewards for completing the new content are skins. Your rewards for doing seasonal events, like Halloween, Christmas, and SAB, for example, are skins. Your rewards for doing WvW are nothing, unless it’s a tournament time, in which case you get, that’s right, skins.

So what is the focus of the game if not getting skins?

And how do you get the rarer skins, like legendaries, ascended, and things like Infinite Light without grinding, short of gem -> gold transfers?

So you prefer a game where you get everything as soon as you login, then you
find out that there is nothing more to do, and you delete the game ?

Of course the focus is to collect skins for some players .. but you don’t need really
to have the most expensive skins NOW to play the content. A pearl greatsword
does its job as good as twilight.

The skins are just a goal you can set for your own motivation .. however if you
hate the grind then stop it. There is nobody standing with a pistol in your back
that says : you must have twilight tomorrow.

Castrin.8972:

No, grinding is the act of doing the same content over and over and over and over again to gather resources or to hope to get that rare drop.

- Exactly, presence of reward makes it a grind. When you’re playing a game like chess you have same board and pieces every game, but nobody would say that playing chess is a grind, because the activity is its own reward.

Beldin.5498:

So you prefer a game where you get everything as soon as you login, then you
find out that there is nothing more to do, and you delete the game ?

Why do people keep saying this when I’ve never said it?

Filaha.1678:

Beldin.5498:

So you prefer a game where you get everything as soon as you login, then you
find out that there is nothing more to do, and you delete the game ?

Why do people keep saying this when I’ve never said it?

Because it seems you don’t like to play a littler longer to get stuff but you also
seem to believe that you MUST have everything NOW and so are forced to grind.

Beldin.5498:

Filaha.1678:

Beldin.5498:

So you prefer a game where you get everything as soon as you login, then you
find out that there is nothing more to do, and you delete the game ?

Why do people keep saying this when I’ve never said it?

Because it seems you don’t like to play a littler longer to get stuff but you also
seem to believe that you MUST have everything NOW and so are forced to grind.

I’ve never said that, either.

In fact, I’ve not once complained about the grind, and have not once stated that I have any desire to get legendaries. On the contrary, at certain points not in this thread, I have stated that I have no desire to get legendaries as my characters are colour-coordinated to the degree that it puts the power rangers to shame, and no legendaries match my colour schemes.

Edit: In fact, given my arguments here, being that I didn’t find grinding in other MMOs to be mandatory due to my disinterest in raiding, it would be a safer assumption to make that I do not consider the grinding here to be mandatory either.

Shakkara.2641:

Not all MMOs are grinding…

• Ultima Online before AOS
• EVE Online
• Archeage
• A Tale in the Desert
• Wurm Online
• Second Life

And any other sandbox game. Because sandbox games either will pit you against other players, so the endgame is to kill other players and conquer their open-world territory, or it is to do social engineering and become well-known and well-liked amongst other players, or it is to express yourself by creating the most awesome new constructions and content.

I would love to have sandbox features in Guild Wars 2. I kinda expected it to have that, and was very disappointed to find another grindy themepark game. I’ve been having a lot more fun with Archeage these past few months, but unfortunately that game has many bugs. For me the perfect game would have the combat system of Guild Wars 2, the class and equipment system of Guild Wars 1, the player housing and open world of Archeage and the territorial PVP and player-driven economy of EVE Online.

I just about spit my coffee all over my monitor when you said that Eve Online is not grindy……lmao!!!!! What the heck is your definition of “grind”??? Must be completely different from most everyone else’s definition of grind…..lol……lol. In any case, good humorous post……lol.

Filaha.1678:

cranos.5913:

Lemme ask you this, what “endgame” that is not grinding would keep people playing after 2 years of the same content?

That’s why you would make new content within 2 years.

While that’s all fine and good, creating so much content that keeps people busy for a couple of hours every day without a grind is just not realistic. Even if we had big content patches/expansions instead of the LS fiasco it would still not be enough.

Be glad the grind in this game is completely optional. You can do all content in greens if you want.

Filaha.1678:

Castrin.8972:

Grinding is a player mindset more than anything but at least in GW2 it’s not the focus of the game.

Consider: The wardrobe was a big deal when it was put in.

Your rewards for doing dungeons are special skins. Your rewards for doing fractals are special skins. Your rewards for doing PvP are skins. Your rewards for completing the new content are skins. Your rewards for doing seasonal events, like Halloween, Christmas, and SAB, for example, are skins. Your rewards for doing WvW are nothing, unless it’s a tournament time, in which case you get, that’s right, skins.

So what is the focus of the game if not getting skins?

And how do you get the rarer skins, like legendaries, ascended, and things like Infinite Light without grinding, short of gem -> gold transfers?

maddoctor.2738:

No, they are mandatory.

Silly me. Here I was, thinking that I had enjoyed my time with WoW, SW:TOR, and FFXIV without setting foot in raids (except, fair enough, in Vanilla WoW, I did do Molten Core and was the first in my guild to get Anathema/Benediction).

Clearly I was mistaken, and I either actually hated my time, or had been doing raids unaware, possibly in my sleep or something.

So you actually missed all that CONTENT. All the story/lore and boss fights? That might not be mandatory to you, but it certainly is way way more mandatory than a flashy new skin. What does enjoyment of a game has to do with any of this? Completely irrelevant, you missed actual CONTENT, you missed story and you missed UNIQUE rewards only available in those raids. Not having Legendary/Ascended gear isn’t going to disallow you of enjoying any type of CONTENT, you don’t miss any of the story or anything.

If you want to experience only part of the game then go to raiding MMORPG and not Raid. In GW2 you can experience all of it without grinding even for a minute. ALL OF IT. Mandatory or not, that’s the huge difference you fail to see.

Vayne.8563:

Filaha.1678:

@people saying all MMOs are grinding:

Not all MMOs say the following, though:

So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward.

We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun.

But in Guild Wars 2….you don’t need top tier gear to play the game and that makes a huge difference. Unless you want to do the highest tier fractals, which were designed for people who like to grind and enjoyed that play style, you can do everything in this game in exotics. Which doesn’t require grind.

You do realize this is true for most mmos, right. Especially in WoW where you have the LFR, you can experience the content with minimal gear. We’re talking gear you get from questing, dungeons and/or auction house. You can literally do all the content besides high level raids with quest/dungeon/auction house gear. The content is even tuned for such gear. The high level gear that you will have to grind for is meant for non lfr raids, not needed at all for anything else.
If you want to experience the content for story purposes, you have the lfr, which is easier than some of the gw2 dungeons. Well, maybe not at first, but once people start learning the fights,they are done with very few wipes.
Even complete noobs or casuals can experience the raids with little time requirement.

maddoctor.2738:

So you actually missed all that CONTENT. All the story/lore and boss fights? That might not be mandatory to you, but it certainly is way way more mandatory than a flashy new skin. What does enjoyment of a game has to do with any of this? Completely irrelevant, you missed actual CONTENT, you missed story and you missed UNIQUE rewards only available in those raids. Not having Legendary/Ascended gear isn’t going to disallow you of enjoying any type of CONTENT, you don’t miss any of the story or anything.

If you want to experience only part of the game then go to raiding MMORPG and not Raid. In GW2 you can experience all of it without grinding even for a minute. ALL OF IT. Mandatory or not, that’s the huge difference you fail to see.

mandatory
required by a law or rule : obligatory

There was no law or rule requiring me to raid, therefore the raids were not mandatory content, therefore grinding was not mandatory.

Just as there is no law or rule requiring you to get the shinies here, so grinding here is non-mandatory.

You’re arguing from two completely different perspectives here.

For GW2, you’re saying that it’s not mandatory because you aren’t forced to do it if you don’t want to.
But for other MMOs, you’re saying that it is mandatory even if you don’t want to do it.

Pick one or the other.

Zenith.6403:

Castrin.8972:

No, grinding is the act of doing the same content over and over and over and over again to gather resources or to hope to get that rare drop.

- Exactly, presence of reward makes it a grind. When you’re playing a game like chess you have same board and pieces every game, but nobody would say that playing chess is a grind, because the activity is its own reward.

Very few chess games are the same twice in a row, or even within the last three to four in a group. That’s why Chess wouldn’t be called a “grind” as it changes every time. The only thing that is the same is that you are playing it. Thus the example fails because it’d be like saying every game ever made is a grind.

You play a game to enjoy it. Some are inherently are “grindy” due to the design while others are focused on simpler fair. There are games like FarmVille that are as grindy if not more so than WoW, where doing repetitive actions is the only way to reap the biggest rewards. GW2 removes that by not having any content locked behind a requirement that causes people to grind for a particular item to move on to the next level. Note that level requirements are not a part of this discussion as all MMOs have levels, even sandbox games like EvE Online. Level progression is a normal part of the game and does not require doing the same thing over and over again, unless that is how you want to level up your character(s).

Peace.

Filaha.1678:

There was no law or rule requiring me to raid, therefore the raids were not mandatory content, therefore grinding was not mandatory.

Just as there is no law or rule requiring you to get the shinies here, so grinding here is non-mandatory.

You’re arguing from two completely different perspectives here.

For GW2, you’re saying that it’s not mandatory because you aren’t forced to do it if you don’t want to.
But for other MMOs, you’re saying that it is mandatory even if you don’t want to do it.

Pick one or the other.

You are still missing the point. The raid itself is not mandatory, grinding gear to experience said raid is, IF of course you want to experience it. See the difference? in GW2 you can experience all content in greens if you want. Nothing will keep you from ever seeing and experiencing all content and the grind is a completely optional end game goal. While in other games you have have to do raid 1 x amount of times until you’re fully geared so you can finally experience raid 2.

Filaha.1678:

Silly me. Here I was, thinking that I had enjoyed my time with WoW, SW:TOR, and FFXIV without setting foot in raids (except, fair enough, in Vanilla WoW, I did do Molten Core and was the first in my guild to get Anathema/Benediction).

Clearly I was mistaken, and I either actually hated my time, or had been doing raids unaware, possibly in my sleep or something.

I applaud you for playing that game how you wanted to but be honest; if you posted the above in any of their forums and asked if there was any endgame content that you might have missed, what kind of reaction would you get?

If the above is your true play style then welcome to a game that actually rewards it. No need to grind, just enjoy.

Peace.

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

Filaha.1678:

@people saying all MMOs are grinding:

Not all MMOs say the following, though:

So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward.

We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun.

But in Guild Wars 2….you don’t need top tier gear to play the game and that makes a huge difference. Unless you want to do the highest tier fractals, which were designed for people who like to grind and enjoyed that play style, you can do everything in this game in exotics. Which doesn’t require grind.

You do realize this is true for most mmos, right. Especially in WoW where you have the LFR, you can experience the content with minimal gear. We’re talking gear you get from questing, dungeons and/or auction house. You can literally do all the content besides high level raids with quest/dungeon/auction house gear. The content is even tuned for such gear. The high level gear that you will have to grind for is meant for non lfr raids, not needed at all for anything else.
If you want to experience the content for story purposes, you have the lfr, which is easier than some of the gw2 dungeons. Well, maybe not at first, but once people start learning the fights,they are done with very few wipes.
Even complete noobs or casuals can experience the raids with little time requirement.

Just how many raids allow complete noobs in to just go through the content? I mean really. Sure some might but even in GW2 we have purist that will kick you if you are not following the current meta. From your statement LFRs are full of roses and ponies and the players let just anyone join up all the time. Really?

Then in your next statement you say “besides high level raids” which puts them all right back to square one. That to get to that level you need to grind to get the best armor/weapons. Where in GW2 you don’t and never did and (I hope) never will.

Peace.

cranos.5913:

You are still missing the point. The raid itself is not mandatory, grinding gear to experience said raid is, IF of course you want to experience it. See the difference? in GW2 you can experience all content in greens if you want. Nothing will keep you from ever seeing and experiencing all content and the grind is a completely optional end game goal. While in other games you have have to do raid 1 x amount of times until you’re fully geared so you can finally experience raid 2.

I’m not missing the point. I just think that people shouldn’t apply ifs to one side and not the other.

IF I want to raid, then raiding is mandatory. Got that. It’s been stated. I’ve said the same thing. We can move on.

Here’s the part that people get hung up at, though. We apply that if, yet the if for this game gets ignored. If you want to get legendaries, then grinding (or cash shop convert) is mandatory.

I’ve already repeatedly stated that grinding in other MMOs is exactly as mandatory as grinding here is. Namely, if the player wants to experience or acquire the end result of the grinding (raid gear vs. legendaries), then the grind is mandatory. One cannot say that raid grinding in a raid-based MMO is mandatory when it’s possible to enjoy the game without it, and yet say that mat-grinding is not mandatory here because it’s possible to enjoy the game without it. It’s double standards.

Castrin.8972:

I applaud you for playing that game how you wanted to but be honest; if you posted the above in any of their forums and asked if there was any endgame content that you might have missed, what kind of reaction would you get?

If the above is your true play style then welcome to a game that actually rewards it. No need to grind, just enjoy.

Peace.

Why would I ask if there was end game content that I missed if I knew that I didn’t go into the end game content? I’m honestly not sure what the question is asking.

Castrin.8972:

Fernling.1729:

Vayne.8563:

Filaha.1678:

@people saying all MMOs are grinding:

Not all MMOs say the following, though:

So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill

Our games aren’t about preparing to have fun, or about grinding for a future fun reward.

We just don’t want players to grind in Guild Wars 2. No one enjoys that. No one finds it fun.

But in Guild Wars 2….you don’t need top tier gear to play the game and that makes a huge difference. Unless you want to do the highest tier fractals, which were designed for people who like to grind and enjoyed that play style, you can do everything in this game in exotics. Which doesn’t require grind.

You do realize this is true for most mmos, right. Especially in WoW where you have the LFR, you can experience the content with minimal gear. We’re talking gear you get from questing, dungeons and/or auction house. You can literally do all the content besides high level raids with quest/dungeon/auction house gear. The content is even tuned for such gear. The high level gear that you will have to grind for is meant for non lfr raids, not needed at all for anything else.
If you want to experience the content for story purposes, you have the lfr, which is easier than some of the gw2 dungeons. Well, maybe not at first, but once people start learning the fights,they are done with very few wipes.
Even complete noobs or casuals can experience the raids with little time requirement.

Just how many raids allow complete noobs in to just go through the content? I mean really. Sure some might but even in GW2 we have purist that will kick you if you are not following the current meta. From your statement LFRs are full of roses and ponies and the players let just anyone join up all the time. Really?

Then in your next statement you say “besides high level raids” which puts them all right back to square one. That to get to that level you need to grind to get the best armor/weapons. Where in GW2 you don’t and never did and (I hope) never will.

Peace.

I’ve never seen someone kicked from LFR, it’s not a very common thing at all. It is literally content tuned for people that aren’t good at the game.

Read what I was replying to.

“But in Guild Wars 2….you don’t need top tier gear to play the game and that makes a huge difference. Unless you want to do the highest tier fractals, which were designed for people who like to grind and enjoyed that play style, you can do everything in this game in exotics.” -Vayne

The same thing holds true in most mmos, including WoW. You don’t need top tier gear to do anything in the game except high difficulty raids. You can still experience the content of these raids too, in the form of LFR.
You can play the entire game(except the high level raids, which are just higher tuned LFR…raids, so you still can experience the content) without top tier gear. The entire game outside high level raids are tuned for quest, dungeon and crafted gear.

Filaha.1678:

Castrin.8972:

I applaud you for playing that game how you wanted to but be honest; if you posted the above in any of their forums and asked if there was any endgame content that you might have missed, what kind of reaction would you get?

If the above is your true play style then welcome to a game that actually rewards it. No need to grind, just enjoy.

Peace.

Why would I ask if there was end game content that I missed if I knew that I didn’t go into the end game content? I’m honestly not sure what the question is asking.

If you know and acknowledge that you never did the endgame content in those games then you have answered the question already.

The point is that those games have endgame content and GW2 does not. I’m glad that you knew the difference.

Peace.

Castrin.8972:

Filaha.1678:

Castrin.8972:

I applaud you for playing that game how you wanted to but be honest; if you posted the above in any of their forums and asked if there was any endgame content that you might have missed, what kind of reaction would you get?

If the above is your true play style then welcome to a game that actually rewards it. No need to grind, just enjoy.

Peace.

Why would I ask if there was end game content that I missed if I knew that I didn’t go into the end game content? I’m honestly not sure what the question is asking.

If you know and acknowledge that you never did the endgame content in those games then you have answered the question already.

The point is that those games have endgame content and GW2 does not. I’m glad that you knew the difference.

Peace.

Depends on your definition of “end game content”.

Most people I’ve seen define it as the goals the game presents you after you hit max level. Something the game gives you to work towards.

As such, since pretty much all content revolves around the acquisition of skins, it’d be entirely logical to say that the “end game” content of the game is, in fact, the acquisition of skins.

Whether it’s a single player’s end goal is irrelevant to the fact that it’s clearly the focus provided. Just as the fact that raiding not being my end goal is irrelevant to the fact that it’s the focus of raid games.

Filaha.1678:

maddoctor.2738:

So you actually missed all that CONTENT. All the story/lore and boss fights? That might not be mandatory to you, but it certainly is way way more mandatory than a flashy new skin. What does enjoyment of a game has to do with any of this? Completely irrelevant, you missed actual CONTENT, you missed story and you missed UNIQUE rewards only available in those raids. Not having Legendary/Ascended gear isn’t going to disallow you of enjoying any type of CONTENT, you don’t miss any of the story or anything.

If you want to experience only part of the game then go to raiding MMORPG and not Raid. In GW2 you can experience all of it without grinding even for a minute. ALL OF IT. Mandatory or not, that’s the huge difference you fail to see.

mandatory
required by a law or rule : obligatory

There was no law or rule requiring me to raid, therefore the raids were not mandatory content, therefore grinding was not mandatory.

Just as there is no law or rule requiring you to get the shinies here, so grinding here is non-mandatory.

You’re arguing from two completely different perspectives here.

For GW2, you’re saying that it’s not mandatory because you aren’t forced to do it if you don’t want to.
But for other MMOs, you’re saying that it is mandatory even if you don’t want to do it.

Pick one or the other.

I never said you are forced to Raid. I said you are missing WAY MORE by not raiding than by not crafting a single shinny new skin

If you can’t see the difference between GRINDING to access new CONTENT and grinding to make a new skin….

maddoctor.2738:

I never said you are forced to Raid. I said you are missing WAY MORE by not raiding than by not crafting a single shinny new skin

If you can’t see the difference between GRINDING to access new CONTENT and grinding to make a new skin….

Right, you’re not forced, therefore grinding in other games is only as mandatory as it is here: If you want the top rewards, you have to grind.

X T D.6458:

you just want legendaries/ascended…which are not really necessary, for nothing???

You act like this is unheard of, but GW1 worked pretty much like that. You did a mission and were instantly ascended. The best gear in the game was already available from a town that was only about 80% of the way through the game. From there it was just a matter of applying the upgrades you wanted, and even those were trivial to come by within a couple of years of the game’s release.

X T D.6458:

Like no work required at all? You just want everything handed to you?

I work for a living. I play for fun. Having goals to play towards is fun, but as soon as they become so onerous as to be confused with work, then they’ve exceeded the bounds of healthy gaming.

X T D.6458:

and Fyi if you need to spend RL money on them, your doing it all wrong, I’ve crafted multiples of both and never spent one penny aside from buying the game ofc.

I would contend that I’m doing it right because instead of investing my time into crafting multiple legendaries I’ve put my efforts into a job that provides me with the RL money to purchase gems. It has the added benefit of also being usable for important things like my kids’ college tuition and my mortgage. So congratulations on your multiple legendaries. I paid off my mortgage, both vehicles, and met my savings goals for my kids’ college tuition this year. The rest from here on out is saving for retirement. I have no regrets regarding my time investment, and I’m happy to spend $10 a month on gems. It’s still cheaper than a WoW sub.

X T D.6458:

I don’t know what the heck your talking about needing to spend rl cash to get legendaries and ascended.

That’s probably because you’re running dungeons every day. I never understood the outrageous prices on the TP until I chained 4 dungeons back to back with a couple of guildies and acquired more gold in 2 hours than I had acquired in the past two months. Dungeon rewards are outrageously inflated. Go a month without doing dungeons and let us know how much progress you’ve made towards your next legendary in that time.

Filaha.1678:

maddoctor.2738:

I never said you are forced to Raid. I said you are missing WAY MORE by not raiding than by not crafting a single shinny new skin

If you can’t see the difference between GRINDING to access new CONTENT and grinding to make a new skin….

Right, you’re not forced, therefore grinding in other games is only as mandatory as it is here: If you want the top rewards, you have to grind.

No. In other games I’m actually FORCED to grind to even ACCESS specific content. In GW2 you don’t have to grind to access any type of content.

You still miss the skins != content… you still believe that skins are equal to content in other games which is very weird to say the least

X T D.6458:

and Fyi if you need to spend RL money on them, your doing it all wrong, I’ve crafted multiples of both and never spent one penny aside from buying the game ofc. I don’t know what the heck your talking about needing to spend rl cash to get legendaries and ascended.

Since this was added after my reply, I missed it. So I’ll respond now.
I didn’t say you needed to spend real money on it. I said to to do it without grinding and without spending real money. As in, do it without grinding and do not resort to spending real money for gems → gold convert to buy the item(s) or legendaries.

maddoctor.2738:

No. In other games I’m actually FORCED to grind to even ACCESS specific content. In GW2 you don’t have to grind to access any type of content.

You still miss the skins != content… you still believe that skins are equal to content in other games which is very weird to say the least

And if you don’t care about that content or want the rewards from it, then you’re not being forced to do anything.

Just like you’re not being forced to grind here unless you want access to the legendaries or other stuff. Just like you’re not being forced to get ascended items or infusions here unless you want to do fractals.

I’m not missing anything. You just use double standards. I’m not.

Either both are mandatory or neither are.

Fernling.1729:

I’ve never seen someone kicked from LFR, it’s not a very common thing at all. It is literally content tuned for people that aren’t good at the game.

You must have totally missed out on the Siege of Orgrimmar LFR. For the first few months 90% of the Nazgrim attempts were wipes, and after each one the recount meters were spammed. Anyone doing less than 70K DPS (tanks included) was kicked. The sheer amount of rage in the game combined with the ever-growing toxic atmosphere to drive me from that game and back to Guild Wars.

Fernling.1729:

The same thing holds true in most mmos, including WoW. You don’t need top tier gear to do anything in the game except high difficulty raids. You can still experience the content of these raids too, in the form of LFR.

Except it wasn’t quite the same. If you stopped at LFR then maybe you were content to do half the DPS of a heoroic raider utilizing your exact build and rotation. Maybe you didn’t mind zerging your way through watered down bosses and calling it “experiencing the content.” If you ever did normal or heroic raiding you would know that LFR was notwhere near “experiencing the content.”

Fernling.1729:

You can play the entire game(except the high level raids, which are just higher tuned LFR…raids, so you still can experience the content) without top tier gear. The entire game outside high level raids are tuned for quest, dungeon and crafted gear.

Even LFR had item level requirements that required considerable effort at the beginning. Every time Blizzard released a patch they expedited the gear acquisition process so it became less of a grind, but the grind was still there. I kind of prefer the ArenaNet philosophy of letting your end game gear remain your end game gear. Having to climb back on the gearing treadmill every few months got tiring pretty quickly and provided even more motivation for leaving WoW.

Filaha.1678:

X T D.6458:

and Fyi if you need to spend RL money on them, your doing it all wrong, I’ve crafted multiples of both and never spent one penny aside from buying the game ofc. I don’t know what the heck your talking about needing to spend rl cash to get legendaries and ascended.

Since this was added after my reply, I missed it. So I’ll respond now.
I didn’t say you needed to spend real money on it. I said to to do it without grinding and without spending real money. As in, do it without grinding and do not resort to spending real money for gems -> gold convert to buy the item(s) or legendaries.

maddoctor.2738:

No. In other games I’m actually FORCED to grind to even ACCESS specific content. In GW2 you don’t have to grind to access any type of content.

You still miss the skins != content… you still believe that skins are equal to content in other games which is very weird to say the least

And if you don’t care about that content or want the rewards from it, then you’re not being forced to do anything.

Just like you’re not being forced to grind here unless you want access to the legendaries or other stuff. Just like you’re not being forced to get ascended items or infusions here unless you want to do fractals.

I’m not missing anything. You just use double standards. I’m not.

Either both are mandatory or neither are.

You are the one who equates Legendaries with Content. What is mandatory or not is irrelevant. The FACT is I don’t have to grind to access Content in this game, in others I do. In other games I’m FORCED to grind to Access content. In this one I’m not. You are the one who refuses to understand that not having access to a skin isn’t the same as not having to actual content.

I don’t need even 1 point of AR to access Fractals and do everything there, higher levels don’t offer higher rewards, they don’t offer UNIQUE rewards either. In other games there is CONTENT, lore, story, and UNIQUE rewards locked behind Raiding. Just because you say it’s not mandatory to do it or doesn’t remove this fact. Other games require you to grind to even access content, this one doesn’t.

Mandatory or not is completely irrelevant to the discussion and the whole topic. You are the one stuck in saying the same thing “but they are not mandatory in both games!” like a broken jukebox, that’s completely irrelevant. I’m blocked from accessing content and some UNIQUE rewards in other games but not here. That’s an undeniable FACT that you refuse to understand and spout your regular “they are not mandatory” nonsense. Find a better argument because that one is irrelevant.

Filaha.1678:

Right, you’re not forced, therefore grinding in other games is only as mandatory as it is here: If you want the top rewards, you have to grind.

Nothing is mandatory in any MMO. You don’t even have to pay a sub if you don’t want to play a sub game.

• In a traditional raid-based MMO, the stats on raid drops are objectively much higher than on gear obtained elsewhere in PvE.
• In GW2, the stats on Ascended are also objectively higher, but not much higher. This is especially true on armor — which represents the most time/gold investment to obtain.
• Time intensive skins are only subjectively better than the skins obtained easily.

Thus, it’s subjective whether legendaries are the top reward, whereas raid gear IS the top reward, objectively.

Filaha.1678:

And if you don’t care about that content or want the rewards from it, then you’re not being forced to do anything.

So Legendaries equal RAID content in other games. A simple flashy skin is equal to a complete new experience, full of lore, mechanics, story, bosses, and loads upon loads of unique gear skins (and higher gear stat). I wonder what was Blizzard doing wrong so long? Instead of spending all that manpower to create new and interesting raids, they should’ve spent 1/1000 of it to create new flashy skins instead. Since those skins are… content now.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Thus, it’s subjective whether legendaries are the top reward, whereas raid gear IS the top reward, objectively.

Wait for the “but they are not mandatory” argument…

maddoctor.2738:

You are the one who equates Legendaries with Content.

They are contained within the game, therefore they are content.

What is mandatory or not is irrelevant.

No it isn’t. It’s the entire crux of the matter.

The FACT is I don’t have to grind to access Content in this game, in others I do. In other games I’m FORCED to grind to Access content.

Only if you want to access the content. If you don’t, you’re not being forced to do anything.

I’m blocked from accessing content and some UNIQUE rewards in other games but not here. That’s an undeniable FACT that you refuse to understand and spout your regular “they are not mandatory” nonsense. Find a better argument because that one is irrelevant.

You’re blocked from accessing unique rewards (legendaries, etc.) if you don’t grind (or pay cash).

That’s an undeniable fact.

And what is it irrelevant to? You initially responded to me, I didn’t respond to you. My argument is quite definitely relevant to my argument. If it’s irrelevant to what you’re saying, then you should try to be relevant to my argument.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Thus, it’s subjective whether legendaries are the top reward, whereas raid gear IS the top reward, objectively.

Stats on legendaries are higher than on anything below ascended. Stats on legendaries can be swapped around, thus making them more versatile than ascended items where you’d have to craft one for each stat combination plus sigils. Legendaries give you special titles, whereas crafting an ascended weapon does not. Legendaries are shiniest in a game where shiny is the overall goal.

Therefore, it’s objective that legendaries are the top reward.

maddoctor.2738:

So Legendaries equal RAID content in other games. A simple flashy skin is equal to a complete new experience, full of lore, mechanics, story, bosses, and loads upon loads of unique gear skins (and higher gear stat). I wonder what was Blizzard doing wrong so long? Instead of spending all that manpower to create new and interesting raids, they should’ve spent 1/1000 of it to create new flashy skins instead. Since those skins are… content now.

Please read this .

Filaha.1678:

maddoctor.2738:

You are the one who equates Legendaries with Content.

They are contained within the game, therefore they are content.

No they are not the same type of content. I didn’t ask if they are or not, I asked why you equate them. They are by no means equal content, you forgot to answer the question.

What is mandatory or not is irrelevant.

No it isn’t. It’s the entire crux of the matter.

Playing a game itself is not mandatory, so what’s your point? It’s completely irrelevant.

The FACT is I don’t have to grind to access Content in this game, in others I do. In other games I’m FORCED to grind to Access content.

Only if you want to access the content. If you don’t, you’re not being forced to do anything.

As said again and again, irrelevant. And denying access to whole new content is way more than denying access to a single skin. They are not equal. Which is the ACTUAL whole point that you are missing. Mandatory or not is irrelevant.

I’m blocked from accessing content and some UNIQUE rewards in other games but not here. That’s an undeniable FACT that you refuse to understand and spout your regular “they are not mandatory” nonsense. Find a better argument because that one is irrelevant.

You’re blocked from accessing unique rewards (legendaries, etc.) if you don’t grind (or pay cash).

That’s an undeniable fact.

I’m not blocked from accessing Legendaries at all. Making a level 1 character and going out in the world for 5 minutes will progress my legendary creation. Unless I grind a SPECIFIC RAID I won’t get any progress in getting that Raid’s gear. I think it’s simple to understand. I can get a Legendary by simply do my everyday play (which is what I do) and I WILL get the Legendary, without even grinding. It’s only a matter of WHEN I will get it. In RAIDS there is NO WHEN, if you don’t grind the raid you will never, EVER, get RAID gear, and you will never experience the fights, see the lore, learn the story etc

That’s an undeniable fact and it’s the actual focus of the entire thread and the discussion that you are completely missing it.

And what is it irrelevant to? You initially responded to me, I didn’t respond to you. My argument is quite definitely relevant to my argument. If it’s irrelevant to what you’re saying, then you should try to be relevant to my argument.

You made an irrelevant argument regarding the topic of the thread. Simple.

maddoctor.2738:

So Legendaries equal RAID content in other games. A simple flashy skin is equal to a complete new experience, full of lore, mechanics, story, bosses, and loads upon loads of unique gear skins (and higher gear stat). I wonder what was Blizzard doing wrong so long? Instead of spending all that manpower to create new and interesting raids, they should’ve spent 1/1000 of it to create new flashy skins instead. Since those skins are… content now.

Please read this .

[/quote]

So really, you DO equate flashy skins with entire RAIDS. Otherwise you wouldn’t be still posting

maddoctor.2738:

No they are not the same type of content.

I never said that.

I didn’t ask if they are or not, I asked why you equate them.

You didn’t ask me anything like that.

They are by no means equal content, you forgot to answer the question.

There was no question to answer.

Playing a game itself is not mandatory, so what’s your point? It’s completely irrelevant.

It is relevant to one’s enjoyment of the game and one’s access to the portions of the game they wish.

And denying access to whole new content is way more than denying access to a single skin. They are not equal. Which is the ACTUAL whole point that you are missing.

They are equal in the sense of whether or not a player must or must not care to acquire it as “part of the end game”.

Mandatory or not is irrelevant.

If the GW2 forums didn’t put pictures at the bottom of the post no matter what, I’d be linking a Mandy Patinkin picture here.

I’m not blocked from accessing Legendaries at all. Making a level 1 character and going out in the world for 5 minutes will progress my legendary creation.

Making level 1 characters and playing them for 5 minutes will make it even more of a grind, not make it less of a grind.

Unless I grind a SPECIFIC RAID I won’t get any progress in getting that Raid’s gear.

Depends on the game. Some games (read: most I’ve played because it’s smarter) will give tokens from more than just a specific raid that you can use to get gear. In fact, my gear in FFXIV is good enough to get going in the later raids, and I’ve not set foot in the earlier raids.

I can get a Legendary by simply do my everyday play (which is what I do) and I WILL get the Legendary, without even grinding.

Then define what you call grinding. Is it not grinding if it’s something you’d want to do anyways? Well, then if someone wants to run raids, maybe they like the instance, then is that now suddenly not grinding?

That’s an undeniable fact and it’s the actual focus of the entire thread and the discussion that you are completely missing it.

Please point to me the part in the OP where it says anything about having “content” gated behind grinding.

You made an irrelevant argument regarding the topic of the thread. Simple.

You sure? You might want to reread the things said before you jumped at me. Namely the OP.

So really, you DO equate flashy skins with entire RAIDS. Otherwise you wouldn’t be still posting

The link is still there for you to read.

Filaha.1678:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Filaha.1678:

Beldin.5498:

You don’t need a legendary or asended stuff or expensive
skins to play any of the content.

You don’t need ascended gear to do the fractals?

Technically 2 infused rings with agony infusions are sufficient

Those are ascended. And still require “grinding” to either buy them or get useful ones as drops. I still have not gotten a useful (read as: applicable to any of my characters’ builds) ascended ring from a drop out of the dozen or so that I’ve acquired. And then more “grinding” to get the items to infuse them and then the infusions themselves.

cranos.5913:

Lemme ask you this, what “endgame” that is not grinding would keep people playing after 2 years of the same content?

That’s why you would make new content within 2 years.

Ascended rings don’t require grinding, if you buy them from a laurel vendor, unless you’re going to start calling dailies grind now. Pretty sure you can get them with guild commendations too. Even if you can’t, you can get ascended earrings from guild missions.

Filaha.1678:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Thus, it’s subjective whether legendaries are the top reward, whereas raid gear IS the top reward, objectively.

Stats on legendaries are higher than on anything below ascended. Stats on legendaries can be swapped around, thus making them more versatile than ascended items where you’d have to craft one for each stat combination plus sigils. Legendaries give you special titles, whereas crafting an ascended weapon does not. Legendaries are shiniest in a game where shiny is the overall goal.

Therefore, it’s objective that legendaries are the top reward.

Stats on legendaries have always been the equal to the stats of the highest tier of gear available. That’s Ascended now. It was exotic at launch. Stat changing would be a nice addition if you plan to swap gear for different builds. You’ve been going on about skins as the GW2 endgame, and the value of skins is subjective.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Filaha.1678:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Thus, it’s subjective whether legendaries are the top reward, whereas raid gear IS the top reward, objectively.

Stats on legendaries are higher than on anything below ascended. Stats on legendaries can be swapped around, thus making them more versatile than ascended items where you’d have to craft one for each stat combination plus sigils. Legendaries give you special titles, whereas crafting an ascended weapon does not. Legendaries are shiniest in a game where shiny is the overall goal.

Therefore, it’s objective that legendaries are the top reward.

Stats on legendaries have always been the equal to the stats of the highest tier of gear available. That’s Ascended now. It was exotic at launch. Stat changing would be a nice addition if you plan to swap gear for different builds. You’ve been going on about skins as the GW2 endgame, and the value of skins is subjective.

Doesn’t matter if you need the feature for stat swapping. It’s objectively superior because it has more to it.

Just like how raid gear is objectively superior but its value is subjective if you don’t raid. If you only like exploring, for example, then you don’t need BIS.

Edit: Although on that note, raid gear isn’t always necessarily BIS in all games. In some cases, you’d get better value out of “lower” gear because of stat spread. For example, if your raid gear has Accuracy but you need more Crit and that’s on the dungeon gear slightly below it, then the raid gear won’t be BIS.

Filaha.1678:

Just like how raid gear is objectively superior but its value is subjective if you don’t raid. If you only like exploring, for example, then you don’t need BIS.

Better stats make a difference no matter what content you’re doing. Daily quests take longer in greens than in Epics. Exploring is easier in epics. The arguments in game forums between raiders and non-raiders always revolved around not “needing” the stats — but you never saw raiders doff their epics to participate in non-raid content.

Equipping raid gear made for a very discernible difference in game-play experience. Equipping Ascended (and by extension a Legendary) just doesn’t seem to make a discernible difference. That’s why I believe that the value of a Legendary is mostly as a skin.

Perhaps objective v. subjective does not catch the idea I’m trying to convey. Perhaps it’s that the primary value in raid gear is increased effectiveness. The generous stat boosts on epics generated a different (easier) game play experience for anyone who got them. The numerical benefits of a Legendary are small and don’t seem to matter much at all. Thus, I believe the primary benefit in a Legendary is the look, with stat change being a minor add-on.

grinding in this game is for fashion. you don’t have to comply to that. it is optional.

Filaha.1678:

Depends on your definition of “end game content”.

Most people I’ve seen define it as the goals the game presents you after you hit max level. Something the game gives you to work towards.

As such, since pretty much all content revolves around the acquisition of skins, it’d be entirely logical to say that the “end game” content of the game is, in fact, the acquisition of skins.

Whether it’s a single player’s end goal is irrelevant to the fact that it’s clearly the focus provided. Just as the fact that raiding not being my end goal is irrelevant to the fact that it’s the focus of raid games.

Skins in this game are not the “endgame” because they are the equivalent to window dressing. Everyone likes different things and not all want Twilight (for example). Where as some are very hard to get (and some impossible due to limited availability) none are required to play the game nor succeed in any event nor complete any content.

GW2 has no endgame content save what the individual player decides. While you may think that skins == endgame that is incorrect on a game wide level. While it might be your endgame it’s not recognized as the same universally. While you can take a pass in other MMOs on certain content that in the game is recognized as endgame content and say “I played the way I wanted” the players in those games would say “yeah, so what, you never did any endgame content.” While GW2 invites you to play anyway you want and there is no “endgame” content that the other players here would say you missed out on. There simply isn’t any.

Peace.

Filaha.1678:

cranos.5913:

You are still missing the point. The raid itself is not mandatory, grinding gear to experience said raid is, IF of course you want to experience it. See the difference? in GW2 you can experience all content in greens if you want. Nothing will keep you from ever seeing and experiencing all content and the grind is a completely optional end game goal. While in other games you have have to do raid 1 x amount of times until you’re fully geared so you can finally experience raid 2.

I’m not missing the point. I just think that people shouldn’t apply ifs to one side and not the other.

IF I want to raid, then raiding is mandatory. Got that. It’s been stated. I’ve said the same thing. We can move on.

Here’s the part that people get hung up at, though. We apply that if, yet the if for this game gets ignored. If you want to get legendaries, then grinding (or cash shop convert) is mandatory.

I’ve already repeatedly stated that grinding in other MMOs is exactly as mandatory as grinding here is. Namely, if the player wants to experience or acquire the end result of the grinding (raid gear vs. legendaries), then the grind is mandatory. One cannot say that raid grinding in a raid-based MMO is mandatory when it’s possible to enjoy the game without it, and yet say that mat-grinding is not mandatory here because it’s possible to enjoy the game without it. It’s double standards.

The difference is you don’t need to get that legendary to complete content. It’s completely optional and only serves for looking better. You don’t even need to grind for a legendary, as everything for it pretty much drops everywhere in game. You just have to play the game a lot.

Castrin.8972:

Skins in this game are not the “endgame” because they are the equivalent to window dressing. Everyone likes different things and not all want Twilight (for example).

Just because someone doesn’t want it doesn’t mean that it’s not the clear goal for when you hit max level. Literally everything is centered around getting skins. That is objectively the “goal” of the game. It’s subjective as to which skins are worth getting, but Anet clearly is putting focus on the acquisition of skins because it’s the reward for everything that isn’t “run around randomly doing whatever”.

While you may think that skins == endgame that is incorrect on a game wide level.

Take that up with Arenanet, who are clearly focusing on the acquisition of skins for endgame and all content. Name me one aspect of the content short of “running around randomly” that doesn’t result in skins as a reward. This isn’t subjective. It’s objective. Arenanet is clearly focusing on skins for rewards for doing whatever type of content they offer.

cranos.5913:

The difference is you don’t need to get that legendary to complete content. It’s completely optional and only serves for looking better. You don’t even need to grind for a legendary, as everything for it pretty much drops everywhere in game. You just have to play the game a lot.

And you don’t need raid gear to complete anything but more raids. It’s completely optional.

And what, now we’re redefining “grind” to mean “it has to be done in one place”? So any game in which I can acquire tokens at end game to purchase gear without having to do the same dungeon over and over again does not have a grind?

Yes, I suppose that if we redefine “endgame” to be “must be in a dungeon” and “content” to mean “must have specific fights” and “grind” to mean “must be done in one place”, then I suppose the argument holds up.

I’m not going to redefine those, though.

Filaha.1678:

cranos.5913:

The difference is you don’t need to get that legendary to complete content. It’s completely optional and only serves for looking better. You don’t even need to grind for a legendary, as everything for it pretty much drops everywhere in game. You just have to play the game a lot.

And you don’t need raid gear to complete anything but more raids. It’s completely optional.

And what, now we’re redefining “grind” to mean “it has to be done in one place”? So any game in which I can acquire tokens at end game to purchase gear without having to do the same dungeon over and over again does not have a grind?

Yes, I suppose that if we redefine “endgame” to be “must be in a dungeon” and “content” to mean “must have specific fights” and “grind” to mean “must be done in one place”, then I suppose the argument holds up.

I’m not going to redefine those, though.

raid = content
looking good =/= content

That’s the difference. Nothing in this game will keep you from experiencing all content. In other games it’s locked behind a grind. Sure, it’s optional whether you actually wanna complete said content, but the point is nothing will stand in your way if you decide to do so.

Also, grinding is a term used in video gaming to describe the process of engaging in repetitive tasks during video games. The only part I’ve ever found a grind about legendaries is the map completion, because I dislike open world pve in this game. I just play the game, be it dungeons, WvW or PvP and eventually I have enough gold. No repeating the same thing over and over till you’re sick of it. If you want you can do something different every day and still get there. It’s only a grind if you make it one.