Guild Wars 2

yakuza snowdragon.4639:

It honestly does my head in the fact that Anet could make a skill system like gw1 then make the sequel and completely dismiss what made them so popular in the first place???? Anet wake up because your stuffing it up. In gw1 there was hundreds of skills each unique and the slightest change in armour could take you from being invincible in Hard Mode to being slaughtered in seconds!!!

That is why you have loyal long term supporters Arenanet! Why the hell do you make a system 1/4 of as impressive as you already had? Fire the the simpleton that hard the idea to simplify, people already have games they can play if they want basic combat. The new system has only 1 build worth running for each class, Zerk Wars 2.

It does my head in that people who think that system was the best thing since sliced bread can’t acknowledge that there were people who didn’t like it as much or even at all, and stopped playing because of it.

It had good points and bad points. The bad points were if you weren’t going to put real thought into it, you weren’t going to be able to play the game properly. If you think most people are going to put real thought into their builds, I’m not sure what to tell you.

Guild Wars 1 never made the impression Guild Wars 2 has. Anet wanted to capture a larger percentage of the player base, and you can’t do that with the skill system if Guild Wars 1. It was too complex for the masses.

OP: “QQ I cant brag about being a special snow flake”…. Personally for me…… I LOVE THE NEW TRAIT CHANGES AND I CANT WAIT FOR THEM.

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 1 never made the impression Guild Wars 2 has. Anet wanted to capture a larger percentage of the player base, and you can’t do that with the skill system if Guild Wars 1. It was too complex for the masses.

Well, it doesn’t hurt GW2 is around in a time when WoW has been out for a while and there’s very little in the way of MMOs which stuck around for competition. Last time that happened, it was when WoW came out around when EQ had been around for a while . . .

Also, GW1 was really a niche game. It was really good in that niche, but it always felt like a more robust D2 experience.

. . . without the character building issues.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Vayne.8563:

Guild Wars 1 never made the impression Guild Wars 2 has. Anet wanted to capture a larger percentage of the player base, and you can’t do that with the skill system if Guild Wars 1. It was too complex for the masses.

Well, it doesn’t hurt GW2 is around in a time when WoW has been out for a while and there’s very little in the way of MMOs which stuck around for competition. Last time that happened, it was when WoW came out around when EQ had been around for a while . . .

Also, GW1 was really a niche game. It was really good in that niche, but it always felt like a more robust D2 experience.

. . . without the character building issues.

Actually, there were a lot of things that made Guild Wars 2 as popular as it originally was. Part of it was that everyone had been singing the same tune for so long, some players were tired of it. I know, let’s how WoW with Dynamic Events (Rift), let’s have WoW in space (SWToR). Its’ all just the same thing over and over again.

Anet did something different at a time when different was the right thing to do. But that doesn’t really change my point at all.

My point is, and you’ve sort of reiterated it, Guild Wars 1 was niche and it would have stayed niche had the skill format been repeated. It’s like D&D.

When D&D came out, it was just a couple of pamphlets with some basic info about how to create your own game and world. The more and more people who played it, the more you had to redesign it for the lowest common denominator.

I mean by percentage, if you make something for the top 25% of intelligence and skill, you’ll end up with a maximum sell through of 25%. You might lose some of that 25% if you dumb it down, but in the end you’ll probably get more.

The real trick is, and this is hard to do, is to make something simple enough so everyone can play it, but hard enough/complex enough where the higher end can still keep improving.

Guild Wars 2 falls short on the high end…but probably not by as much as many think.

CoRtex.2157:

GW1 : Alot of choice,, alot of fun,, pretty balanced game
GW2 : Not much choice,, meta game,, totally unbalanced

Although,, people say with less skills you have more balance… Well.. from what i have seen… GW2 is the most unbalanced game i’ve ever seen. Not even joking.

EDIT: It’s not the amount of skills that make gw2 so unbalanced. It’s more because there are no roles in gw2. Everyone does the same thing,, only different. But only 1 does it the best (with a few exceptions in certain situations)

1) GW1 was not balance, whenever there was a patch people (in general) expected a skill to get nerf or buffed. You never knew when it would happen, skills were adjusted several times trying to find a balance that was never fully reached. GW1 had plenty of meta builds that were posted on pvxwiki. Also, in GW1 people would ask you to ping your builds and if your build was undesirable you were kicked. Or some people would demand for you to run a particular meta build. At least GW2, people aren’t asking us to ping skills 1-5.
2) There are roles in GW2: Damage, Support, and Control. Its up to people to choose what they want to do. There is nearly equivalent freedom of choice in GW2 roles. You can even do traditional roles now, Nomad gear allows someone to be a tank if they wish.

lordkrall.7241:

CoRtex.2157:

GW1 : Alot of choice,, alot of fun,, pretty balanced game
GW2 : Not much choice,, meta game,, totally unbalanced

Although,, people say with less skills you have more balance… Well.. from what i have seen… GW2 is the most unbalanced game i’ve ever seen. Not even joking.

EDIT: It’s not the amount of skills that make gw2 so unbalanced. It’s more because there are no roles in gw2. Everyone does the same thing,, only different. But only 1 does it the best (with a few exceptions in certain situations)

Did you ever actually play GW1?

Even years after release the game was far from balanced.
GW2 is MUCH more balanced in comparison.

There were very little actual choices in GW1. Either you played the going meta-build or you basically didn’t play. No one would take anyone that didn’t play meta. Simple as that.

You just needed to be in the right guild if you wanted to play outside the meta. Anyone who only played meta then are the people who just zerg now in my opinion. There were many ways to play GW1. Most didn’t because most builds weren’t optimal fast and easy to execute. Just like zerging and zerker really.

FrizzFreston.5290:

lordkrall.7241:

CoRtex.2157:

GW1 : Alot of choice,, alot of fun,, pretty balanced game
GW2 : Not much choice,, meta game,, totally unbalanced

Although,, people say with less skills you have more balance… Well.. from what i have seen… GW2 is the most unbalanced game i’ve ever seen. Not even joking.

EDIT: It’s not the amount of skills that make gw2 so unbalanced. It’s more because there are no roles in gw2. Everyone does the same thing,, only different. But only 1 does it the best (with a few exceptions in certain situations)

Did you ever actually play GW1?

Even years after release the game was far from balanced.
GW2 is MUCH more balanced in comparison.

There were very little actual choices in GW1. Either you played the going meta-build or you basically didn’t play. No one would take anyone that didn’t play meta. Simple as that.

You just needed to be in the right guild if you wanted to play outside the meta. Anyone who only played meta then are the people who just zerg now in my opinion. There were many ways to play GW1. Most didn’t because most builds weren’t optimal fast and easy to execute. Just like zerging and zerker really.

The difference is, virtually all the content can be finished by five of a single profession. So if you run a dungeon with five necros or five rangers, you can do it. I’m not sure the same can be said for the first game. Surely not for stuff like DOA.

I think it’s a mistake to assume that simpler = bigger audience. While being overly complex can hurt a game, too much simplicity can hurt a game also.

I’m in favor of some of the changes (getting rid of traits that will never be viable is probably a good thing), but I’m less fond of others (I think the WvW auto-update went too far). And I think there are other things that could really stand to be simplified (there are frankly, too many gear sets / combinations, but that seems to be going the other way).

TooBz.3065:

I think it’s a mistake to assume that simpler = bigger audience. While being overly complex can hurt a game, too much simplicity can hurt a game also.

I’m in favor of some of the changes (getting rid of traits that will never be viable is probably a good thing), but I’m less fond of others (I think the WvW auto-update went too far). And I think there are other things that could really stand to be simplified (there are frankly, too many gear sets / combinations, but that seems to be going the other way).

Sure, if you only have one option, you’re right, that’s too much simplicity. There are still plenty of people out there who find this game complex and don’t get stuff. As I said earlier it’s always a balance. The trick is to make it hard and easy. Easy to get into, hard to master. Anet needs to make some changes on both fronts still.

My biggest problems with the trait system are the loss of choice (some classes have two awesome tier 2 abilities in a trait line, these can no longer both be taken. Some classes benefit from a wider spread because they’re more front loaded. In general, the distinction between trait tiers just a forced limitation when I’m build my character, because the difference in power level is questionable and varies per class), and that despite culling the traits we’re still stuck with crappy/super niche ones.

I agree more doesn’t mean better, but I can’t agree that this philosophy applies as much to the current trait changes. Its trimming the fat of a serving of lard with a few tasty bits of meat in it. And during the trimming you are being forced to lose some of the meat.

We’re not just losing a bunch of (arguably worthless) traits, we’re losing the ability to mix and match tiers and to mix and match trait lines. The reasoning behind this plan could be anything, but its convenient how ‘improving’ the trait lines makes for less work on the specialties.

And all logic aside, I prefer high customization in my fantasy games. Lack of it and I rather not pick the game up, and loss of it makes me want to put the game down, no matter how good the rationale behind the decision is. (It’s an even stronger feeling when I don’t agree with the decision naturally).

yakuza snowdragon.4639:

It honestly does my head in the fact that Anet could make a skill system like gw1 then make the sequel and completely dismiss what made them so popular in the first place???? Anet wake up because your stuffing it up. In gw1 there was hundreds of skills each unique and the slightest change in armour could take you from being invincible in Hard Mode to being slaughtered in seconds!!!

That is why you have loyal long term supporters Arenanet! Why the hell do you make a system 1/4 of as impressive as you already had? Fire the the simpleton that hard the idea to simplify, people already have games they can play if they want basic combat. The new system has only 1 build worth running for each class, Zerk Wars 2.

Not the same Anet, not all the same devs, changed in person or as persons (as you often do during your lifetime).

Not the same market, gaming has changed a lot, a system as complex as GW1 would make the majority of GW2´s audience´s heads explode. There will never be a AAA title again with any semblance of difficulty or complexity, even the surprise success of Souls-titles (which have difficulty, though don´t exactly shine in complexity, that given) had a long build up and they are still not on the super-budget side of the industry.

Indy and demi-indy titles have long overtaken the big releases when it comes to actual interesting game play. If you want huge numbers, you gotta develop for people with half a brain now, games are just to expensive to aim for higher ability or investment. If GW1 would be released in today´s “y cant metroid crawl”-age, even sporting contemporary look and feel, it would fail MASSIVELY.

Couple of years…..and we are gonna play this on our iPhones and have millions of players! Its inevitable !!!

FrizzFreston.5290:

- snip – Anyone who only played meta then are the people who just zerg now in my opinion. – snip -

Scratching my head here. Why would you think that? In GW, meta builds were on demand in 3 areas: PvP (except maybe Alliance Battles); Speed Run Elite Instance or Dungeon Farms; and Hard Mode Speed Run rep groups. Why would those who did speed runs and PvP in GW not be those doing speed runs and PvP in GW2?

simple is good, i rather anet make things simple and do it correctly than making things complicated and always having to change it later after regretting it

Vayne.8563:

The bad points were if you weren’t going to put real thought into it, you weren’t going to be able to play the game properly.

That’s a very good description for chess, yet chess is FAR more popular than GW2 will ever be.

Vayne.8563:

It does my head in that people who think that system was the best thing since sliced bread can’t acknowledge that there were people who didn’t like it as much or even at all, and stopped playing because of it.

TBH, that’s irrelevant when worded they way you did. “People” stopped playing because of the GW1 skill system? Sure. “People” have stopped playing because of the GW2 skill system too. It’s very likely that “people” stopped playing GW2 because they wanted to play with a poney race, does that mean ArenaNet should add poneys before the tengu?

Saying “people” think something doesn’t really matter. You have no idea of how many people you are talking about, and you have no way of knowing. You don’t know how many people stopped playing the original GW because of its skill system, nor how many people have avoided playing GW2 because of its skill system.

(And really, the good old “the invisible people in my Guild who always happen to agree with me” argument is pure BS. You are statistically insignificant among the millions of GW1 players.)

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Everything is viable simply because you have no freedom to really customize anything.

GW1 had options.

of course there were optimal builds to run…. but at the same time, you could change your party comp to have whatever you wanted…. as long as you had the elements of the holy trinity (something absent in gw2).

That’s not really options, then.

Also, options that suck I wouldn’t qualify as “freedom”. Why would you want a game that implicitly gives you options that suck? It’s only the illusion of freedom. Every choice should be viable but from how you describe, GW1 had options that weren’t viable. I call that fat. GW2 cuts the fat and aims to give you the same amount of meat.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

I think you are mistaking the need to fill the roles of the trinity in a teamcomp with imbalance.

Perhaps not imbalance, but it is an illusion of freedom. I don’t mind having trinity-esque roles, but if it were to exist in GW2, it needs to be a soft-trinity like currently where you can finish content with any combination of roles, you just have to adjust fire to account for what roles you have covered and each team comp combo is effectively a different combat feel….like City of Heroes

The Hardcore refuse to admit that the game was designed for the casual MMO player with only a few bones tossed to them. It’s reflected in the game’s PvE extreme co-op nature, the simplicity of events, the drop system and the cash shop. Someone who can scrape together 10 hours a month of playtime can enjoy themselves and get decent gear.

Now if you laugh at that idea of decent gear, that only legendary and ascended will do, then you weren’t the target market for the game. If you can devote so much time to the game then you aren’t the ones that are likely to spend actual money buying gems.

Also Test, aren’t players like you who are upset at the trait system repeatedly said that the game is no longer played by the millions who bought the game? That those millions left because it wasn’t hard core enough?

Leo G.4501:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Everything is viable simply because you have no freedom to really customize anything.

GW1 had options.

of course there were optimal builds to run…. but at the same time, you could change your party comp to have whatever you wanted…. as long as you had the elements of the holy trinity (something absent in gw2).

That’s not really options, then.

Also, options that suck I wouldn’t qualify as “freedom”. Why would you want a game that implicitly gives you options that suck? It’s only the illusion of freedom. Every choice should be viable but from how you describe, GW1 had options that weren’t viable. I call that fat. GW2 cuts the fat and aims to give you the same amount of meat.

not really.

Just like building a house…. if you don’t know what you are doing, your house is going to look like kitten.

Finding skills that synergized while keeping in mind energy management and recharge times was what gw1 was all about.

There is absolutely none of that in gw2.

Just because players had the freedoms to make their own builds and could do them completely wrong does not mean the skills they used were “fat t obe trimmed” because those skills could be useful in other areas of the game.

In the history of gw1, there were only a handful of skills that were rarely used because they were outright poor and they always had their functionality changed as soon as anet realized.

Examples:

Otyugh’s Cry
All animals in the area become hostile to your target and gain +20 armor for 30 seconds.

to

Your pet has +24 armor and is unblockable.

Aura of the Lich
Elite Enchantment Spell. For 24…53…60 seconds, your maximum Health is halved, but you take half damage and half healing from all sources

to

All corpses within earshot are exploited and you animate a level 1…14…17 bone horror plus one for each corpse exploited in this way. For 5…37…45 seconds, your Death Magic attribute is increased by +1.

etc.

Imagine your weapon skillbars in guild wars 2 could all be changed individually like your utility skills. (and on top of that every character had 2 professions to choose their skills from)

If a skill doesn’t work on your bar…… why would you put it on your bar to begin with?

…and just because the skill doesnt work on your bar doesn’t mean it won’t work on someone else’s bar.

A necromancer probably would never use the skills Vampiric Bite or Vampiric Touch

Why? They are necro skills after all.

They simply cost too much energy to use.

…but since they are not spells and are actually skills…. another profession can utilize them much more effectively.

The Ranger has a traitline called expertise which dramatically lowers the energy cost of skills.

There was a really overpowered build that surfaced called touch ranger when players discovered these mechanics (and of course it has since been nerfed).

Gw2 doesn’t even use energy, lol.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

not really.

Just like building a house…. if you don’t know what you are doing, your house is going to look like kitten.

Bad analogy. Why should building an MMO character be compared to something as complex as building a house? Something that takes a multitude of various knowledge staples from plumbing, electrical wiring and architecture to design/decor, property ownership and zoning?

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Finding skills that synergized while keeping in mind energy management and recharge times was what gw1 was all about.

There is absolutely none of that in gw2.

I wouldn’t say that. It’s more simplified but skill management is certainly a part of how you play the content well. Again, I wouldn’t say it’s as complex or engaging but to say it doesn’t exist is false.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Just because players had the freedoms to make their own builds and could do them completely wrong does not mean the skills they used were “fat t obe trimmed” because those skills could be useful in other areas of the game.

Sure, just understand that, from your perspective it isn’t but from others’ perspectives, such things are “fat to be trimmed”.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Imagine your weapon skillbars in guild wars 2 could all be changed individually like your utility skills.

If a skill doesn’t work on your bar…… why would you put it on your bar to begin with?

…nad just because the skill doesnt work on your bar doesn’t mean it won’t work on someone else’s bar.

Not understanding where you’re going with this. You’re not understanding the main point I was trying to draw attention to: that just because roles existed as options, it’s only an illusion of freedom if the game enforces certain choices such as what your team must consist of.

Leo G.4501:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

not really.

Just like building a house…. if you don’t know what you are doing, your house is going to look like kitten.

Bad analogy. Why should building an MMO character be compared to something as complex as building a house? Something that takes a multitude of various knowledge staples from plumbing, electrical wiring and architecture to design/decor, property ownership and zoning?

Okay, because I’m a person that likes to think of analogies presented to me, I think i’ll help you out with this one.

MMOs shouldn’t be that complex on the outside! MMOs, above all else, should be about preference…like picking a pair of shoes. Do you want to run? Walk? Climb? Play a sport? Are they for construction work? Going to a fancy party? When you decide from there, then it’s all about preference! The size, color, style, etc.

Starting out a character, it should be all “So what do you want your character to be like? Or what defines what they do?” Does the character use elemental powers like fire, ice, electricity? Do they phychokinetically manipulate fire around them (i.e. psychic+fire)?

From there, it should just be a game of putting the pieces together (a powerset for fire blast, ice manipulation, cold mastery, electric blast, psy manipulation, etc, hell, you can take a weapon like a bow or sword, use a skin to make it look like a manifestation of an element or some type of energy and customize the abilities with it to make it perform the intended function like doing ice or pyschic damage) and then FROM THERE you shouldn’t have to “build a house” for the build, simply aim to progress your character to a greater potential.

All that said, doing all this doesn’t have to be as simple as picking a pair of shoes. Afterall, there is a real science to footware too and picking the perfect pair can aid performance. But making a meta-build should be second to making a custom character, or at the very least making a unique and interesting character stand on equal footing as a meta-build through extreme effort instead of through simple conforming to a standard.

Leo G.4501:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

not really.

Just like building a house…. if you don’t know what you are doing, your house is going to look like kitten.

Bad analogy. Why should building an MMO character be compared to something as complex as building a house? Something that takes a multitude of various knowledge staples from plumbing, electrical wiring and architecture to design/decor, property ownership and zoning?

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Finding skills that synergized while keeping in mind energy management and recharge times was what gw1 was all about.

There is absolutely none of that in gw2.

I wouldn’t say that. It’s more simplified but skill management is certainly a part of how you play the content well. Again, I wouldn’t say it’s as complex or engaging but to say it doesn’t exist is false.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Just because players had the freedoms to make their own builds and could do them completely wrong does not mean the skills they used were “fat t obe trimmed” because those skills could be useful in other areas of the game.

Sure, just understand that, from your perspective it isn’t but from others’ perspectives, such things are “fat to be trimmed”.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Imagine your weapon skillbars in guild wars 2 could all be changed individually like your utility skills.

If a skill doesn’t work on your bar…… why would you put it on your bar to begin with?

…nad just because the skill doesnt work on your bar doesn’t mean it won’t work on someone else’s bar.

Not understanding where you’re going with this. You’re not understanding the main point I was trying to draw attention to: that just because roles existed as options, it’s only an illusion of freedom if the game enforces certain choices such as what your team must consist of.

Taking every single one of my statements out of context is not how I like to carry on a conversation with anyone.

If you would have left my statements in context you would realize that Gw1 build crafting was indeed very complicated, and I would still compare it to a construction project, because it was exactly that.
In the very next statement, I started going into some of the variations of detail players needed to pay attention to when creating a build…. but since you separated that from my first statement, you removed the context.
Energy, cast times, cooldowns, are all just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to creating a build in Guild Wars 1.
And yes, you said it yourself…. guild wars 1 was much more complex…..
That is the entire point of this thread, afterall… proving how gw1 was much more complex than gw2’s watered down simple build system.

…and there weren’t any gw1 players who looked at skills as “fat to be trimmed” They looked at them as valuable tools that have their purpose under the right circumstances.

Perhaps you’d like to address further replies as a whole next time.
It will save me quite a bit of reiteration.

you’re greatly underestimating the new trait system
if you’re calling it stupid simple

it will be complex yet simple enough to be used

TheBlackLeech.9360:

In the history of gw1, there were only a handful of skills that were rarely used because they were outright poor and they always had their functionality changed as soon as anet realized.

Funny how you glossed over one example I threw up to you in Archer’s Signet. An Elite which was seriously questionable. Or how Poison Arrow isn’t as useful as Poison Tip Signet / Apply Poison . . . Quick Shot was pretty questionable too, as an Elite.

Non-Elite? Companionship vs Comfort Animal. Why use Expert Focus when “I am the strongest!” works better and comes in the same expansion? And why touch Triple Shot at all?

And that’s just looking back on what I was working with in my little corner of Ranger. There were questions like this in every class, and while some skills would get rewritten or buffed . . . there wasn’t any guarantee it was going to happen.

The only guarantee was that every solo-UW farm build was going to be busted in a couple months, either through nerfing skills or introducing creatures to stop some of the problems. (How about those phantom enemies which strip enchantments? Or Skeletons of Dhuum?)

TheBlackLeech.9360:

Taking every single one of my statements out of context is not how I like to carry on a conversation with anyone.

I’m not taking your statements out of context, I’m merely quoting the “topic portion” of your posts. Each quote is practically a whole post I could write about in itself but I’m summing up (for you and me) my position on the statement. It’s not like the post I’m quoting no longer exists or is outside the easy reach of reference, just scroll up. It doesn’t make my statements on them any different. But it does make it more easy to distinguish which points are talking about what.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

If you would have left my statements in context you would realize that Gw1 build crafting was indeed very complicated, and I would still compare it to a construction project, because it was exactly that.

Sure, but that has little context with what I’m saying. I don’t care how complex GW1 is. Never played it. Don’t want to. I hear alot about it and that’s about it. The context I’m addressing is, character building and the complexity of it.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

In the very next statement, I started going into some of the variations of detail players needed to pay attention to when creating a build…. but since you separated that from my first statement, you removed the context.

FYI, you’re still talking to me. This isn’t some sort of exhibition. I know what you’re talking about and the examples you bring up. If you don’t want people to address your analogies, then try not using them for the basis of your explanations

TheBlackLeech.9360:

…and there weren’t any gw1 players who looked at skills as “fat to be trimmed” They looked at them as valuable tools that have their purpose under the right circumstances.

Perhaps you’d like to address further replies as a whole next time.
It will save me quite a bit of reiteration.

Hmm, well I’ll just tell you (like I said before) there will be other perspectives than your own. The thing about perspectives is they are all relatively right in their own way.

Leo G.4501:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

…and there weren’t any gw1 players who looked at skills as “fat to be trimmed” They looked at them as valuable tools that have their purpose under the right circumstances.

Perhaps you’d like to address further replies as a whole next time.
It will save me quite a bit of reiteration.

Hmm, well I’ll just tell you (like I said before) there will be other perspectives than your own. The thing about perspectives is they are all relatively right in their own way.

He’s also wrong on that score too. There was at least one GW1 player who saw all the Factions duplicate skills as fat to definitely be trimmed. Why it never was, I don’t know. That’s how we got the rather extreme touch rangers to begin with (both skills being one skill existing twice).

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Leo G.4501:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

…and there weren’t any gw1 players who looked at skills as “fat to be trimmed” They looked at them as valuable tools that have their purpose under the right circumstances.

Perhaps you’d like to address further replies as a whole next time.
It will save me quite a bit of reiteration.

Hmm, well I’ll just tell you (like I said before) there will be other perspectives than your own. The thing about perspectives is they are all relatively right in their own way.

He’s also wrong on that score too. There was at least one GW1 player who saw all the Factions duplicate skills as fat to definitely be trimmed. Why it never was, I don’t know. That’s how we got the rather extreme touch rangers to begin with (both skills being one skill existing twice).

Well then that’s too bad that that detail got glossed over just because I quoted him piecewise. I know doing that can aggravate people but each answer I was addressing wasn’t meant to be taken as a single point but various perspectives that I could comment on.

And yeah, that was one perspective I saw. To basically state your perspective is “everyone” will bound to get argued against and from the 2nd-hand knowledge I got from players on GW1, there were a lot of skills that did a lot of different things! There’s bound to be fat!

Even City of Heroes suffered from this, but it was semi-countered because your hero is bound to the type of powers it has, i.e. if you have a Fire Control/Storm Summoner Controller (fire/storm controller), you can never change that and swap powers from Radiation Emission, Plant Control, Empathy or whatever, you can only change your travel/pool powers and epic power pool. There was lots of overlap and niche use skills but some builds might make far more use out of something that others would dismiss simply because they could get it from no where else. I’d consider some of it necessary fat so some joints can function somewhat properly.

Leo G.4501:

Also, options that suck I wouldn’t qualify as “freedom”. Why would you want a game that implicitly gives you options that suck? It’s only the illusion of freedom. Every choice should be viable but from how you describe, GW1 had options that weren’t viable. I call that fat. GW2 cuts the fat and aims to give you the same amount of meat.

Except it doesn’t achieve that aim.

Each character in GW had 4 attributes (5 for elementalist), each of which had large numbers of skills that worked off of those attributes. Most of them were viable. Many of them were desirable in different situations. Of course, as with every game, there were skills that were optimal in elite play. That’s inescapable in games of this type as long as there are differences in the way skills work. Something is always going to be best.

Where GW2 has not met the aim you refer to is in generating the variety of challenges which leads to one option being best in one area, while a different option is better in a different area. GW did this, at least for elite play and before PvE skills trivialized normal mode.

I had many build templates saved for all of my GW characters. I tended to play the whole game, and things that worked in one spot either didn’t work at all or didn’t work as well in another spot. In GW2, I rarely change builds outside of an occasional utility skill (oh, don’t need reflection for this encounter, take stab instead), or going to WvW, where my PvE build doesn’t work so well.

There are limited areas in GW2 where different builds work better. The most notable are bunker play in PvP, roaming in WvW or a few encounters like husks in 3Wurm. Even if, as seems likely, ANet creates more content that emphasizes certain things, the fact that the first five skills on the bar are tied to weapon choice means play will tend to often feel the same, with where one is on the condition/direct continuum and which utilities one has.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Leo G.4501:

TheBlackLeech.9360:

…and there weren’t any gw1 players who looked at skills as “fat to be trimmed” They looked at them as valuable tools that have their purpose under the right circumstances.

Perhaps you’d like to address further replies as a whole next time.
It will save me quite a bit of reiteration.

Hmm, well I’ll just tell you (like I said before) there will be other perspectives than your own. The thing about perspectives is they are all relatively right in their own way.

He’s also wrong on that score too. There was at least one GW1 player who saw all the Factions duplicate skills as fat to definitely be trimmed. Why it never was, I don’t know. That’s how we got the rather extreme touch rangers to begin with (both skills being one skill existing twice).

…again you didn’t even play enough to understand the game.

Anyone who actually played enough, would know that having two skills on your bar that did the same thing was actually useful….

again touch ranger as an example…

There were even skills that duplicated a skill on your bar (Echo and Arcane Echo)

…but why am I even trying to argue with you people anymore.

One of you clearly has never even played the game…. while the other played so little of it you might as well be an ostrich with your head buried in the sand.

Please continue comparing things you have no grasp on… to eachother.

I’d rather have a more structured and easier to balance system that one in which finding loopholes and broken gimmicks is more likely.

The problem here is not the builds we’ll be able to make with the current or any new system.

The problem is giving uses to most builds.

What does it matter if you can make this or that build if most people will use the same one anyways?

So step 1:

• In PvE: Improve enemy AI and their skill sets, and add variation so a team with 5 5guys with the same stats and similar builds will be slower than one with varied stats and roles.
• In PvP: Add more modes with more varied objectives within each mode, that promotes a greater variety of builds.

reapex.8546:

CoRtex.2157:

GW1 : Alot of choice,, alot of fun,, pretty balanced game
GW2 : Not much choice,, meta game,, totally unbalanced

Although,, people say with less skills you have more balance… Well.. from what i have seen… GW2 is the most unbalanced game i’ve ever seen. Not even joking.

EDIT: It’s not the amount of skills that make gw2 so unbalanced. It’s more because there are no roles in gw2. Everyone does the same thing,, only different. But only 1 does it the best (with a few exceptions in certain situations)

1) GW1 was not balance, whenever there was a patch people (in general) expected a skill to get nerf or buffed. You never knew when it would happen, skills were adjusted several times trying to find a balance that was never fully reached. GW1 had plenty of meta builds that were posted on pvxwiki. Also, in GW1 people would ask you to ping your builds and if your build was undesirable you were kicked. Or some people would demand for you to run a particular meta build. At least GW2, people aren’t asking us to ping skills 1-5.
2) There are roles in GW2: Damage, Support, and Control. Its up to people to choose what they want to do. There is nearly equivalent freedom of choice in GW2 roles. You can even do traditional roles now, Nomad gear allows someone to be a tank if they wish.

ok… let’s see,
1. Every game needs buffs and nerfs,, gw2 also does it.

2. Meta builds,, you know that in gw1, meta builds were bad builds right? Custom builds were always better, but harder to execute. GW1 meta builds, were the builds that were meant to be easy and decent, not the best builds. Custom > Meta. In GW2 there is only 1 way to do things right because there is no room for customization. If you do customize,, you would perform worse. How are you going to customize your character with only 1-2 elite skills… How are you going to be different than someone else if you have only a few skills to choose from?

3. There is no point what so ever to play support or control. You just all go DPS,, you kill way faster and it’s much safer. I’ve seen runs where people just kill bosses in expl. mode without even giving the boss the chance to attack. lol. Yeah.. you really need support and control haha. I really hope restoration and control become key in HoT. I really do,, it’s the key to success for gw2.

EDIT: Killing bosses in 5 seconds really feels like a bug to me. But it’s how gw2 is designed. I really want to see that changed. BUT! Giving them more HP is ABSOLUTELY the wrong solution. Just make control/support a key factor in defeating a boss. That’s all.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

One of you clearly has never even played the game…. while the other played so little of it you might as well be an ostrich with your head buried in the sand.

Please continue comparing things you have no grasp on… to eachother.

I’m sure it wouldn’t have been a constructive discussion with you anyway. Elitist types tend to view themselves above the everyman which is what GW2 likely aims for.

I really don’t understand how you people got from discussing the comparison between the current trait system and the upcoming trait system to the way builds work in GW1 to how they work in GW2.

GW1 had way too many skills to count(some of them were actually duplicates with different names, from different campaigns) and honestly most of them were unusable, either becuase they were too weak or because they didn’t synergize with anything else.
Also the balancing of the skills in GW1 was horrible. There were literally skills split between PVE and PVP to have different effects because of how good they were mostly in PVE. And add to that there were many OP skills that almost 100% of the time were taken, that were PVE ONLY and because of that there was even less viable options for builds for PVE.
Heck the system was so unbalanced that some classes had it really hard that anet needed to change their system(like the dervish which couldn’t spam skills much less use them efficiently until anet changed their mechanic). It was so unbalanced that the Paragon class had only 1 viable build for PVE which was called “Imbagon”-Imbalanced Paragon(there were actually more builds but others pale in comparison to the Imbagon).
In GW1 there were even META builds for the NPC HEROS that a player would take to make their play more easier and efficient(especially that if you die there you get reduced max hp until you get some exp). Moreover many of those builds were unusable by normal players only because they work better with AI and not with a human mind and reflexes.

In GW2, the current system gives stat points, which is one of the main reasons people invest in a trait line even though that line don’t have any traits that appeal to them.
Also many traits are weak and could have been better if they were combined with other traits. Add to that that many of the traits are mostly bad or just plain awful because they don’t fit many or if any situation .
A good example is the Piercing Arrows trait for rangers which according to all players that played a ranger with a bow, wanted to see it combined the Quick Draw trait reduces the recharge on bow skill by 20%, mainly because the Piercing Arrows trait was just plain weak by its own.
The new system addresses those issues by removing unused useless traits and combining traits that serve a similar purpose(like the Signets of Power and Signets Use traits for thief which both make signets stronger). And also by removing Stat points from traits and putting them on gear only actually opens up more builds that weren’t available before because of those stats on trait lines.
Also take note that without the new system, I really see no way for anet to put the Elite specs to use without breaking the balancing of the game.

True that limiting the player to 3 trait lines only and only giving us up to 27 different combinations of major traits in a line to a total of 81 different combinations of major traits for the 3 picked trait lines compared to the current 5 possible trait lines with many more different combinations of major traits but with less efficiency of said traits.
However, as I have written in this post many traits are being combined and therefore you will actually have better options to choose from instead of many options to choose from. e.g. quality over quantity. And let’s face it, many players invest in lines whether they like that line or not because it either has 1 or 2 traits that they want(I actually have a char which doesn’t use any GM traits much less 3 Master traits because they don’t fit its build) or either because it gives stat points which are good for their build.

To that end, I’m all for the new trait(spec) system as IMO, it actually opens up more builds diversity without breaking the meta and actually gives more options to players to choose from

Dev’s for Anet have been quoted for saying they like to challenge MMO content, meaning that they don’t want to do what everyone else has done. While that’s a good idea to make your game unique, you can’t re-invent the wheel every day. Sometimes things work and it’s best to go with it, even if other games have done it. I can’t recall a single thing that Anet has done with GW2 that’s different other than the no trinity concept. By making games simple or easier it’s a quick way to get some revenue and get people to play and buy the expansion when it comes out.

But just like in a lot of other MMO’s veterans will get fed up because there’s no challenge and leave and then the game is filled with simple minded people and the community goes down the toilet. Blizzard and WoW are a perfect example of making things simple.

TheBlackLeech.9360:

…again you didn’t even play enough to understand the game.

Keep saying that, it might actually start being true.

Anyone who actually played enough, would know that having two skills on your bar that did the same thing was actually useful….

I’d say “broken” but that’s me. I settle for “clearly circumventing the purpose of the system entirely”.

…but why am I even trying to argue with you people anymore.

Because you’re not tired of being wrong yet?