Guild Wars 2

The following will pertain to PvE content only:

GW2 is like a carnival. It’s fun to pass the time and look at all the cool sideshows, but there is no overall epic adventure. Just mindless wandering.

Sure there are a epic meta events, but you complete it and carry on to some other unrelated event that does not progress your character forward whatsoever, knowing that these events happen on rotation. I did enjoy my personal story, but I feel as though GW2 is two separate games before and after you hit 80. All character story progression grinds to a halt after your personal story, and all gear progression stops after you buy your favorite looking armor and transmuted it with exotics from the TP. I will say that I had more fun leveling/questing in this game than any other MMO I have ever played. The zones are just gorgeous, the “questing” was seamless. But now what? Hitting 80 I was ready for some epic battles with huge bosses and cool armor and weapons. But that didn’t happen.

This games attention to detail is phenomenal. It’s dedication to meaningful and rewarding end-game content progression is horrendous.

Agree/Disagree?

Agreed….I do.

Sterz.2463:

GW2 is like a carnival. It’s fun to pass the time and look at all the cool sideshows, but there is no overall epic adventure. Just mindless wandering.

Quoting the OP from another topic:

Sterz.2463:

Do you honestly think most MMO players are thinking “oh sweet I cant wait for this awesome challenge in this dungeon”…no they want to get that sweet rare reward at the end.

So no, you are not looking for any “overall epic adventure”. By your words, all you want is “mindless” grind. I’m happy that there isn’t enough of the gear grind you want in this game.

Disagree, though I think you have most of it right. You’re just missing one small point.

As you said, you enjoyed it as you leveled/quested. With GW2, they didn’t want to make a game that only really begins once you’ve hit max level. They wanted the entire game to be fun. There is no real “endgame” to it because of that.

If they focus on making an “endgame”, then they fall into the same trap so many other MMOs have fallen into, and eventually GW2’s game will “begin at the end” like so many others. I’m already seeing bits of it slipping in with the Living Story, and it worries me.

So… yeah. Disagree.

I have a feeling these crazy people begging for gear grind are going to make anet take another dump into their game sooner than later.

sigh…

But yeah, just so i don’t lose the habit:

No, I don’t think it needs more +stat crap for “endgame” or a new reward system. At any rate, according to Collin, the new reward system is already coming in the second half of the year anyway. Also, when ascended was first (rectally) introduced, they already said they are gonna keep rolling out this junk and more infusions and all that crap. So all you people begging for +stat junk will get your junk and probably inflict another grind on WvW players.

But I do agree on this: DEs are too disjointed or too scarce sometimes. Maybe the zones could use some overarching goal, even the world, so people who are not total pollen grains like me and need a bit more goal-oriented gameplay also enjoy the open world pve like I do. Maybe in the future we could see more meaningful DEs tied together, actually impacting the world for longer. But that’s it. I think DEs are hodoring awesome the way they are.

In short: The gameplay may use more focus and goals, but don’t tell me +stat trinkets are a goal. Stop this nonsense. Goals that are part of the game. No trinkets, no stupid achievement checkbox lists.

Erasculio.2914:

Sterz.2463:

GW2 is like a carnival. It’s fun to pass the time and look at all the cool sideshows, but there is no overall epic adventure. Just mindless wandering.

Quoting the OP from another topic:

Sterz.2463:

Do you honestly think most MMO players are thinking “oh sweet I cant wait for this awesome challenge in this dungeon”…no they want to get that sweet rare reward at the end.

So no, you are not looking for any “overall epic adventure”. By your words, all you want is “mindless” grind. I’m happy that there isn’t enough of the gear grind you want in this game.

I can see how these two statements at first seem to contradict one another. However, it is all in how you define an epic adventure. My idea of an epic adventure is content that is of large scale, offers large rewards, and overall feels interesting and challenging. Perhaps adventure the is the wrong word as an adventure does not guarantee rewards.

A system by which one goes into a dungeon or an event knowing that he/she will not likely not receive any meaningful loot is not a fun system. Meaningful rewards that give you a sense of character/gear progression is a key component to keeping players interested. Having epic story telling is usually a bonus. And I am not saying I want to more grind, you all seem to think that this will occur if item progression was more emphasized. Dungeon token grinding is the most grinding I have and will ever do for armor/weapons in this game. Anything more is silly and not fun. I am talking about let boss chests actually give you good rewards. Each boss fight you should be excited that your cool item might drop. I will likely never play WoW again but if there is one thing they did right is raid loot tables. It kept you coming back for your drop, and when it dropped, you were so happy. Loot tables don’t exist in this game and buying armor/weapons from TP or with karma that has the same states is too cheap for loot from bosses to matter. Its tricky because this just isnt possible in GW2. Even if every boss in dungeons now dropped exotics, people would still sell them because they likely already have their desired exotic stats on their desired looking armor. Loot just doesn’t matter in this game. Everything is so cosmetically driven in this game that it all seems superficial and fake (mostly mini’s and joke/holiday skins).

Sterz.2463:

Meaningful rewards that give you a sense of character/gear progression is a key component to keeping players interested.

I can show you hundreds of games in which character and gear progression didn’t even exist, yet people played and enjoyed those games. What you call a way to keep players interested, I call a way to keep people addicted, nothing more.

This game has more epic adventure than any other MMO I know so far.

Running over Southsun Cove, wandering into a camp and thing, yes I was here 2 months ago helping the rioting settlers.
Yes I was here, caching Canach and defend the camps against the crazed wildlife.
And I was there, when the settlers were driven away from their homes by the molten alliance.

Wandering more around into the hive, seeing that charred, stoned karka queen body still lying next to the lava I know:
I was here 6 months ago. I fought this beast for almost 3 hours, and I was one of the guys collapsing the ground.

GW2 has those epic adventures more than anything else, with living story content which permanently changes the world… here and there…

Harbard.5738:

In short: The gameplay may use more focus and goals, but don’t tell me +stat trinkets are a goal. Stop this nonsense. Goals that are part of the game. *bold*No trinkets, no stupid achievement checkbox lists.bold

This is exactly what each and every special monthly event has been about. Stupid cosmetic trinkets, stupid cosmetic minis, long achievement checklist grinds all for said cosmetic trinket mini junk.

Sterz.2463:

This is exactly what each and every special monthly event has been about. Stupid cosmetic trinkets, stupid cosmetic minis, long achievement checklist grinds all for said cosmetic trinket mini junk.

What you are asking for is to replace that by stupid more powerful trinkets, stupid stats altering minis, long achievement checklist grinds for all said more powerful trinket mini junk.

It’s not only equally ridiculous – it’s even more so.

Erasculio.2914:

Sterz.2463:

This is exactly what each and every special monthly event has been about. Stupid cosmetic trinkets, stupid cosmetic minis, long achievement checklist grinds all for said cosmetic trinket mini junk.

What you are asking for is to replace that by stupid more powerful trinkets, stupid stats altering minis, long achievement checklist grinds for all said more powerful trinket mini junk.

It’s not only equally ridiculous – it’s even more so.

Please keep talking sense. At least it makes it feel less of a lost battle :P

OP, my apologies but you use the word “epic” far too much. Please have a read:

http://thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=epic

Erasculio.2914:

Sterz.2463:

GW2 is like a carnival. It’s fun to pass the time and look at all the cool sideshows, but there is no overall epic adventure. Just mindless wandering.

Quoting the OP from another topic:

Sterz.2463:

Do you honestly think most MMO players are thinking “oh sweet I cant wait for this awesome challenge in this dungeon”…no they want to get that sweet rare reward at the end.

So no, you are not looking for any “overall epic adventure”. By your words, all you want is “mindless” grind. I’m happy that there isn’t enough of the gear grind you want in this game.

kitten alert.

Sorry that you feel the world works in a one track way, because it doesn’t. I enjoyed GW1 for the way it executed its story, the story itself wasn’t good but it was a journey that few games could match.

I feel sorry for you that you aren’t able to see something amazing like this.

The OP is right…and wrong.

There is no progression of your characters story after the personal story ends. It’s true.

What the OP is leaving out is that there aren’t many MMOs with personal stories At all (only SWToR, afaik) and when the story ends there…the story ends. That happens in single player games too, unless they come out with expansion content. I played mass effect and when the story ended the game was over. So I’m not sure what the complaint is.

Does the OP want infinite personal story that continues on forever? Does he want gear progression to progress his character? Does gear progression even progress your character, or does it just make you a coatrack for greatness?

The only story we have now that progresses is the Living World stories and they are stories, if you bother to talk to people and pay attention to what’s going on.

It’s unrealistic to expect a personal story to continue indefinitely, though it may well continue with an expansion. But I don’t see not having gear progress as a problem for the game.

I see it as a strength of the game.

Sterz.2463:

A system by which one goes into a dungeon or an event knowing that he/she will not likely not receive any meaningful loot is not a fun system. Meaningful rewards that give you a sense of character/gear progression is a key component to keeping players interested. Having epic story telling is usually a bonus. And I am not saying I want to more grind, you all seem to think that this will occur if item progression was more emphasized. Dungeon token grinding is the most grinding I have and will ever do for armor/weapons in this game. Anything more is silly and not fun. I am talking about let boss chests actually give you good rewards.

It’s a slippery slope, really. You add better and more rewards and it devalues those good rewards and diminishes lesser rewards. If every chest dropped an exotic, rares become even less valuable. Award a precursor as your monthly and soon Legendaries are just shiny common gear. It’s already dead easy to get everything you need to progress, shifting it to make it easier only worsens your issue of desirable progression.

Technically, gear should be more scarce, not less, if you want a grind.

As for what GW2 lacks, it’s more complex than you think. You’re right but also wrong on some things, especially about “Now I’m 80, where’s my epic battles?”. If you didn’t have epic battles at nearly every turn, then you’re not exploring hard enough. Also, dungeons are available as early as lvl 35 and have their own set of epic in decent doses.

IMO, what I feel the game could use, dungeon-wise, is randomness. You can get this to some degree with PuGs but even after doing hundreds of PuGs nothing really pops out and surprises you.

In open-world, what I feel the game could use is level scale control. Most areas just become so easy, there’s no/little danger in exploring. Completing the map is less enjoyable for me after you’ve passed the level cap of the zone and everything dies easy and hardly hurts. I don’t really need bigger and better prizes to kill stuff and complete hearts which is the bulk of what the open world is and likely ever will be.

Also, chain mini-dungeons would be nice. Add more of these to break up the hearts quests.

I after say I agree to some extent…

I wanted a endgame the was epic struggles against different dragons…I appear to have got fashion wars 2, centered around a contrived story who’s main purpose is to sell the latest piece of junk in the gemstore.

People say you want no stat progression but really its just been replaced with a endless fashion catwalk, where players wear the latest skin for 2 weeks to a month, then get a new one, leaving the old one to gather dust in there inventory.

I think since around Jan 13, GW2 has lost any sense of direction…

Meglobob.8620:

I after say I agree to some extent…

I wanted a endgame the was epic struggles against different dragons…I appear to have got fashion wars 2, centered around a contrived story who’s main purpose is to sell the latest piece of junk in the gemstore.

People say you want no stat progression but really its just been replaced with a endless fashion catwalk, where players wear the latest skin for 2 weeks to a month, then get a new one, leaving the old one to gather dust in there inventory.

I think since around Jan 13, GW2 has lost any sense of direction…

Okay, so let’s compare the game to Guild Wars 1 at the 10 month mark, which is where we are.

In Guild Wars 1, you had two elite areas, The Underworld and The Fissure of Woe and they added another elite area, somewhat smaller, called Sorrow’s Furnace. The game was finished. There were 25 missions. There was no progression.

By the 10 month mark there was no excuse not to have every elite skill. The story was over, because you beat it when you beat the 25th mission.

What people are complaining about there is that you beat the dragon and you want to fight more dragons. And when they come out with those expansions you’ll be able to.

But really for a 10 month old game, it’s gold a whole lot of content. Even if Fractals and Guild Missions were the only thing added to the game, it’s still a lot more than most MMOs have by the 10 month mark.

People are spoiled. They look at games with years of content development behind them and they think new games should have the same amount of content.

It’s never gonna happen.

So people who don’t like the ‘themepark’ content atm…should go off do something else (whatever that maybe) and tune back in when a expansion comes out? At which point we get to have epic battles and fight dragons?

Or alternatively, lets say you love WvW like I do, just do that until the expansion comes out…

Meglobob.8620:

So people who don’t like the ‘themepark’ content atm…should go off do something else (whatever that maybe) and tune back in when a expansion comes out? At which point we get to have epic battles and fight dragons?

Or alternatively, lets say you love WvW like I do, just do that until the expansion comes out…

I’m saying that if people have unrealistic expectations of games, they’re going to be disappointed. No company can make content faster than people can consume it.

Think in terms of Skyrim. Show much of Skyrim could you complete before the first downloadable content came out? You played Dragon Age, and the wait for Dragon Age 2 was years.

If you played those games again, or replayed them, you’d be fighting the same monsters. The same dragons. The same bandits. That’s the nature of games.

So yes, if someone wants more content, they have to wait for more content to be developed which takes time. At least Guild Wars 2 is giving people “stuff to do” which in the end is what MMOs end up being. Stuff to do.

You may not personally like the stuff, but there are people who’ve liked the temporary dungeons, there are people who’ve liked the jumping puzzles (a new permanent one is coming July 2nd), there are people who even like just farming boxes in the open world.

This kind of content, most of it, is quite easy to make, compared to say a raid, or a new dungeon. And they’re giving you a new dungeon.

What should people do? Realize that content takes time and content eventually comes out, and when it does, you can play it. Until it does, either make another character, play another aspect of the game or play another game.

Entertainment content is always limited. You can only get so much out of it.

Sterz.2463:

Meaningful rewards that give you a sense of character/gear progression is a key component to keeping players interested.

Why gear progression? Why not other forms of character progression:

• Rising up the ranks in your Order and Race after the threat of Zhaitan has been dealt with (shame they did this through the story really, as opposed to in the world).
• Finding Skills and Traits all around the world, which depend on your profession? EG Warriors fight a weapons-master and meet a certain criteria (eg, attack the enemy when they’re knocked down to unlock +damage when foe is knocked down trait) to unlock a trait.
• Rather than give all 3 Explorable paths at once, make all 3 paths have different difficulty, and then unlock them as you beat each path, with appropriate rewards for each path. Maybe make it so only certain pieces of armour can be bought in each path.

You don’t need ever-rising stats to have a sense of progression.

Hey Sterz,

I agree with you, in that once you have reached 80 your options become somewhat limited, but this ultimately depends on you the players. I think GW2 players fall in to two categories.

The first are conventional MMO players who yearn for more of what they know MMOs to be, ie raids, mounts, gear progression. Even the lack of these doesn’t stop them playing a Guild Wars 2 because its a visual treat and does sate their gaming thirst for a while. But, once they’ve ‘seen the show’ tried all the game mechanics and moaned a bit of the forums about how it’s not like WoW they stop playing.

Then you have the other type of GW2 player, who still loves MMOs like most but if they find a game world appealing can make their own fun if need be and need far less baby sitting from the developers. They make their own goals and objectives based on what the game has to offer, rather than wishing for what the game doesn’t have.

I think fall into the second group but I do empathise with players who want it to be more like (X). I to have my own wish list of what I hope they do with the game next but at the same time am very happy with how it plays now.

I think it comes down to this, that Guild Wars 2 just isn’t the MMO many hoped for or in fact what ArenaNet promised it would be. I do not have a permanent effect of my environment, I do grind and yes, I have swung a sword again and again (sorry Colin ).

But I love Guild Wars 2 and intend to play for a long time to come. Obviously from a selfish point if view I want people to play the game Im playing, a healthy player base is the lifeblood of any MMO and to that end I hope we do get some more sustainable activities to keep people playing. ie WvsW updates and expansions, dungeons that stay put and some better goals for players to work towards (but not gear/stats)

Edit: I vote self built player forts!

I’d love to see some more cohesivity between events, take Temple of Lyss for example, right outside the temple is a event which requires you to look for Spectral weapons, what if you finish the event, the zone (or people @ Lyss) get a ‘Spectral Weapon Buff’ Do x%Extra dmg to Risen.

and so on.

Let me tell you this. In every single successful mmo out there, the developers have made a goal once you reach the max level. Can you guess what that goal might be? Getting armor. I’ve been playing mmo’s all my life, and I know that any successful mmo will need an armor grind to keep it going, and doing dungeons for armor or forever searching for better armor is a necessity. I know it doesn’t appeal to most of you, but I bet you have a small moment of absolute joy every time you got that armor piece to make you better in WoW. This is what Guild Wars 2 lacks big time. Once I got exotic armor, I was basically done with the game, but I continued to play and found nearly nothing else in this game that has the same appeal as the armor progression in WoW. Legendaries are out of the question (Threw away thousands of rares and exotics into the Mystic Forge), and ascended gear is just there to make it so people will stay around a little longer instead of quitting GW2. GW2 has no end game.

Galtrix.7369:

Let me tell you this. In every single successful mmo out there, the developers have made a goal once you reach the max level. Can you guess what that goal might be? Getting armor. I’ve been playing mmo’s all my life, and I know that any successful mmo will need an armor grind to keep it going, and doing dungeons for armor or forever searching for better armor is a necessity. I know it doesn’t appeal to most of you, but I bet you have a small moment of absolute joy every time you got that armor piece to make you better in WoW. This is what Guild Wars 2 lacks big time. Once I got exotic armor, I was basically done with the game, but I continued to play and found nearly nothing else in this game that has the same appeal as the armor progression in WoW. Legendaries are out of the question (Threw away thousands of rares and exotics into the Mystic Forge), and ascended gear is just there to make it so people will stay around a little longer instead of quitting GW2. GW2 has no end game.

I’d rather have tons of people quit the game, and have a strong niche audience. Because gear grind won’t keep people in this game once other games with gear grind come out.

This is how it works (and I’m making these numbers up as an example).

Say 10,000,000 people play MMOs and 1,000,000 like games with gear grind as end game. That means 9,000,000 will end up not liking Guild Wars 2. However, if those 9,000,000 people have 20 choices, and they divide evenly, only 500,000 people will end up playing each one.

Guild Wars 2 will be the only MMO with gear grind and so it will keep it’s 1,000,000 players.

Those may not be accurate numbers but the theory is sound. Some people, obviously, don’t like gear grind. And those people may not be in the majority. But the majority fo the people who like it aren’t playing every game and once you divy them up, you end up with less people playing.

Put another way, how many games WITH gear grind would you consider successful by percentage?

Sterz.2463:

The following will pertain to PvE content only:

GW2 is like a carnival. It’s fun to pass the time and look at all the cool sideshows, but there is no overall epic adventure. Just mindless wandering.

Sure there are a epic meta events, but you complete it and carry on to some other unrelated event that does not progress your character forward whatsoever, knowing that these events happen on rotation. I did enjoy my personal story, but I feel as though GW2 is two separate games before and after you hit 80. All character story progression grinds to a halt after your personal story, and all gear progression stops after you buy your favorite looking armor and transmuted it with exotics from the TP. I will say that I had more fun leveling/questing in this game than any other MMO I have ever played. The zones are just gorgeous, the “questing” was seamless. But now what? Hitting 80 I was ready for some epic battles with huge bosses and cool armor and weapons. But that didn’t happen.

This games attention to detail is phenomenal. It’s dedication to meaningful and rewarding end-game content progression is horrendous.

Agree/Disagree?

I agree, although that is partly why I play. I enjoy the mindless wandering, since I have other mmos to fill the opposite reqs. And I still have Gw1 installed for when I yearn for that too

That said, I’d too like the epic boss battles you stated. Even if just for the sake of fighting them and no reward.

PVE is face roll content anyways, that’s why I wvw.

Galtrix.7369:

Let me tell you this. In every single successful mmo out there, the developers have made a goal once you reach the max level. Can you guess what that goal might be? Getting armor.
I’ve been playing mmo’s all my life, and I know that any successful mmo will need an armor grind to keep it going, and doing dungeons for armor or forever searching for better armor is a necessity.

To say that armour and stat grind is a deciding factor on what makes an MMO successful is fallible. There are other games out there that have been less successful that also feature a gear treadmill. Not to mention I can’t personally think of another MMO that hasn’t featured a gear treadmill in some way, shape or form.

Yes, players need a goal. Some players need the goal given to them in the way of a treadmill, while other players create their own goals (I remember seeing one guild who tried to do dungeons all in white gear).

Ever increasing stats to gate content isn’t the only way to do that though. It’s just a mechanic used to gate content to keep people playing while devs create new content that has been replicated in games so many times because of WoW’s success (which wasn’t down to the gear treadmill, funnily enough), and because so many games have featured it, players have become accustomed to it.

That’s not to say that there aren’t people who enjoy it, but to say the only way to create a successful MMO is to have an stat grind is laughable.

I find doing something as completely pointless as doing dungeons in all white gear for no reason other than to cure your apparent boredom is quite laughable.

Dangerkips.6035:

I find doing something as completely pointless as doing dungeons in all white gear for no reason other than to cure your apparent boredom is quite laughable.

I agree. If you’re bored with a game, you stop playing the game. That’s my take on it. Or you take a break.

I’m not bored with Guild Wars 2, so I’m not taking a break, or leaving.

Dangerkips.6035:

I find doing something as completely pointless as doing dungeons in all white gear for no reason other than to cure your apparent boredom is quite laughable.

Who said they were bored? There’s a difference between setting a goal because of boredom and setting a goal for the challenge.

If it was a goal they set because they couldn’t find another goal in-game set by the devs, then it isn’t pointless. They’re aiming for something.

Just because you feel it’s pointless, it doesn’t make it pointless.

Dangerkips.6035:

I find doing something as completely pointless as doing dungeons in all white gear for no reason other than to cure your apparent boredom is quite laughable.

I find figuring out and successfully completing a dungeon for a reward that makes the very same dungeon you just completed slightly easier to complete the second time, and then even easier to complete the third time, and slightly easier the ….. ect …. I find that, not only boring, but moronic.

If there’s no payoff beyond doing it in proper gear, then yes, it is pointless.

There are other possible “pay-offs” other than one which merely trivializes the content, creates power creep, and increases non-skilled based power of a character. The only good thing about stat-based rewards is if you are a terri-bad player in dungeons or WvW: because then, if you max out a power stat advantage over most of the other polayers, you can somewhat mask your poor gaming abilities.

Dangerkips.6035:

If there’s no payoff beyond doing it in proper gear, then yes, it is pointless.

To you, who needs an extrinsic motivator to do stuff, it will be pointless.

For other people who create their own goals (whether it be running dungeons in White gear, trying to solo dungeons, deleting their character if they die once, world map completion with all icons off) it isn’t.

To tell others what their doing is pointless, even if the persons themselves doesn’t find it pointless, is somewhat conceited.

Vayne.8563:

Dangerkips.6035:

I find doing something as completely pointless as doing dungeons in all white gear for no reason other than to cure your apparent boredom is quite laughable.

I agree. If you’re bored with a game, you stop playing the game. That’s my take on it. Or you take a break.

I’m not bored with Guild Wars 2, so I’m not taking a break, or leaving.

I’m afraid you’re right. Though it does make me a little sad because it leaves the game with no hope of ever growing if the only smart thing to do is to simply walk away and leave it with all its (perceived) problems.

The GW2 community is very polarized. Anet’s failure to come up with a solid middle-ground solution is slowly making the game bleed out. I would be very interested in seeing an official census of players today vs a year ago.

Dangerkips.6035:

Vayne.8563:

Dangerkips.6035:

I find doing something as completely pointless as doing dungeons in all white gear for no reason other than to cure your apparent boredom is quite laughable.

I agree. If you’re bored with a game, you stop playing the game. That’s my take on it. Or you take a break.

I’m not bored with Guild Wars 2, so I’m not taking a break, or leaving.

I’m afraid you’re right. Though it does make me a little sad because it leaves the game with no hope of ever growing if the only smart thing to do is to simply walk away and leave it with all its (perceived) problems.

The GW2 community is very polarized. Anet’s failure to come up with a solid middle-ground solution is slowly making the game bleed out. I would be very interested in seeing an official census of players today vs a year ago.

It doesn’t really matter. There are enough players like me to populate Guild Wars 2. There are tons of games for the rest of you. Let us have one of them.

Ision.3207:

There are other possible “pay-offs” other than one which merely trivializes the content, creates power creep, and increases non-skilled based power of a character. The only good thing about stat-based rewards is if you are a terri-bad player in dungeons or WvW: because then if you max out a power stat advantage, you can somewhat mask your poor gaming abilities.

You can’t be serious. GW2 doesn’t require skill. It requires the dodge button.

Please don’t stoop to thinly veiled L2P comments.

Dangerkips.6035:

Ision.3207:

There are other possible “pay-offs” other than one which merely trivializes the content, creates power creep, and increases non-skilled based power of a character. The only good thing about stat-based rewards is if you are a terri-bad player in dungeons or WvW: because then if you max out a power stat advantage, you can somewhat mask your poor gaming abilities.

You can’t be serious. GW2 doesn’t require skill. It requires the dodge button.

Please don’t stoop to thinly veiled L2P comments.

Ahahahahaha

Well if it does not require any skill, then you have completely MASTERED the game, in which case any stat based reward should be meaningless to you? So why are you here?

LOL

PS: L2P

Dangerkips.6035:

The GW2 community is very polarized. Anet’s failure to come up with a solid middle-ground solution is slowly making the game bleed out. I would be very interested in seeing an official census of players today vs a year ago.

I disagree. I think it’s exactly the fact that ArenaNet is trying to come up with a middle-ground solution that is driving people away. They are not going to please everyone. They have at least two opposite groups with very different wants and needs playing the game, and both of those do not work together. ArenaNet is trying to make something pleasant for both groups, but it’s not going to work (as it has not been working). If they made a stand and said “this is the kind of player we want” and actually went through with it (they said it in their manifesto, but backtracked from there), the game would lose players from one group, but hopefully get more from the other. And maybe we would stop having the same discussions over and over.

Galtrix.7369:

Let me tell you this. In every single successful mmo out there, the developers have made a goal once you reach the max level. Can you guess what that goal might be? Getting armor.

…Which “every single successful MMO”? Rift? Went free to play due to the loss of players. The Old Republic? Was described as a failure by EA itself. Aion? Never became a success in the West. Age of Connan, WarHammer Online, Lord of the Rings Online? All lost huge chunks of players soon after release.

We have far more examples of failed MMOs with the end game goal being to grind for armor than examples of failed MMOs without gear grind.

Vayne.8563:

Galtrix.7369:

Let me tell you this. In every single successful mmo out there, the developers have made a goal once you reach the max level. Can you guess what that goal might be? Getting armor. I’ve been playing mmo’s all my life, and I know that any successful mmo will need an armor grind to keep it going, and doing dungeons for armor or forever searching for better armor is a necessity. I know it doesn’t appeal to most of you, but I bet you have a small moment of absolute joy every time you got that armor piece to make you better in WoW. This is what Guild Wars 2 lacks big time. Once I got exotic armor, I was basically done with the game, but I continued to play and found nearly nothing else in this game that has the same appeal as the armor progression in WoW. Legendaries are out of the question (Threw away thousands of rares and exotics into the Mystic Forge), and ascended gear is just there to make it so people will stay around a little longer instead of quitting GW2. GW2 has no end game.

I’d rather have tons of people quit the game, and have a strong niche audience. Because gear grind won’t keep people in this game once other games with gear grind come out.

This is how it works (and I’m making these numbers up as an example).

Say 10,000,000 people play MMOs and 1,000,000 like games with gear grind as end game. That means 9,000,000 will end up not liking Guild Wars 2. However, if those 9,000,000 people have 20 choices, and they divide evenly, only 500,000 people will end up playing each one.

Guild Wars 2 will be the only MMO with gear grind and so it will keep it’s 1,000,000 players.

Those may not be accurate numbers but the theory is sound. Some people, obviously, don’t like gear grind. And those people may not be in the majority. But the majority fo the people who like it aren’t playing every game and once you divy them up, you end up with less people playing.

Put another way, how many games WITH gear grind would you consider successful by percentage?

Not to be rude, but it sounds like you haven’t played a lot of mmo’s. That may or may not be true, so I’ll not accuse you of not knowing what you’re talking about. How many games with gear grind can I consider successful? Nearly every single game with gear grind has been successful. WoW, Runes of Magic, Rift, every korean mmorpg on earth, Everquest, Lord of the Rings online, Ragnarok, Star Wars the Old Republic, Fiesta online, Perfect World, and the list goes on. The point I’m trying to make is that you may pretend not to like gear grind, but it’s the only thing that keeps many, many people interested until end-game. Everquest was the first to implement this idea, and Blizzard was smart enough to go along with it. No current mmo has even tried to change that gear grind until Guild Wars 2, and a ton of people don’t like that the gear is so easily attainable. I’ll give you a percentage. About 82% of people in my guild say they want more gear that will make them better. (This is just a rough estimate of the guild percentage) That’s 82% of 500 people. Because of this, I can safely say that the majority of players want way more gear to obtain and they don’t want to so easily obtain the max gear so early on. Without boasting it’s dynamic events, fun dungeons, and meta-bosses bigger than life itself, Guild Wars 2 would’ve died awhile ago.

Look it’s this simple, some people, perhaps a small percentage of gamers – I don’t know —- but some players would like to play a 100% skill-based horizontal progression mmo. One that once you reach max level and attain max gear through your learning process (leveling) then leaves you with a 100% equal footing (stat wise) with others that have done the same. And these players would like this for every aspect of the game (PvE, WvW, PvP …). And this, precisely this, was what GW2 was marketed as for years.

So please, PLEASE allow me this one small corner of the MMO market for my gaming style. And in exchange, I promise, I will never-ever foot-stomp and whine in the WoW or Lotro forums for them to re-invent the game to suit my play style, and at the expense of the people that play those games precisely because they have vertical stat-based progression.

Galtrix.7369:

How many games with gear grind can I consider successful? Nearly every single game with gear grind has been successful. WoW, Runes of Magic, Rift, every korean mmorpg on earth, Everquest, Lord of the Rings online, Ragnarok, Star Wars the Old Republic, Fiesta online, Perfect World, and the list goes on.

Most of those failed, at least in the West.

How many MMORPGs without gear grind have failed in this side of the world?

Galtrix.7369:

Vayne.8563:

Galtrix.7369:

Let me tell you this. In every single successful mmo out there, the developers have made a goal once you reach the max level. Can you guess what that goal might be? Getting armor. I’ve been playing mmo’s all my life, and I know that any successful mmo will need an armor grind to keep it going, and doing dungeons for armor or forever searching for better armor is a necessity. I know it doesn’t appeal to most of you, but I bet you have a small moment of absolute joy every time you got that armor piece to make you better in WoW. This is what Guild Wars 2 lacks big time. Once I got exotic armor, I was basically done with the game, but I continued to play and found nearly nothing else in this game that has the same appeal as the armor progression in WoW. Legendaries are out of the question (Threw away thousands of rares and exotics into the Mystic Forge), and ascended gear is just there to make it so people will stay around a little longer instead of quitting GW2. GW2 has no end game.

I’d rather have tons of people quit the game, and have a strong niche audience. Because gear grind won’t keep people in this game once other games with gear grind come out.

This is how it works (and I’m making these numbers up as an example).

Say 10,000,000 people play MMOs and 1,000,000 like games with gear grind as end game. That means 9,000,000 will end up not liking Guild Wars 2. However, if those 9,000,000 people have 20 choices, and they divide evenly, only 500,000 people will end up playing each one.

Guild Wars 2 will be the only MMO with gear grind and so it will keep it’s 1,000,000 players.

Those may not be accurate numbers but the theory is sound. Some people, obviously, don’t like gear grind. And those people may not be in the majority. But the majority fo the people who like it aren’t playing every game and once you divy them up, you end up with less people playing.

Put another way, how many games WITH gear grind would you consider successful by percentage?

Not to be rude, but it sounds like you haven’t played a lot of mmo’s. That may or may not be true, so I’ll not accuse you of not knowing what you’re talking about. How many games with gear grind can I consider successful? Nearly every single game with gear grind has been successful. WoW, Runes of Magic, Rift, every korean mmorpg on earth, Everquest, Lord of the Rings online, Ragnarok, Star Wars the Old Republic, Fiesta online, Perfect World, and the list goes on. The point I’m trying to make is that you may pretend not to like gear grind, but it’s the only thing that keeps many, many people interested until end-game. Everquest was the first to implement this idea, and Blizzard was smart enough to go along with it. No current mmo has even tried to change that gear grind until Guild Wars 2, and a ton of people don’t like that the gear is so easily attainable. I’ll give you a percentage. About 82% of people in my guild say they want more gear that will make them better. (This is just a rough estimate of the guild percentage) That’s 82% of 500 people. Because of this, I can safely say that the majority of players want way more gear to obtain and they don’t want to so easily obtain the max gear so early on. Without boasting it’s dynamic events, fun dungeons, and meta-bosses bigger than life itself, Guild Wars 2 would’ve died awhile ago.

It’s not rude. I’ve played many of the games you’ve listed and liked exactly NONE of them and that IS my point.

Name one single MMO besides Guild Wars 2 without gear grind. Just one.

You can’t really do it, because virtually all MMOs have gear grind. So to say they’re successful BECAUSE of gear grind is an assumption you can’t make. That’s like saying sports with balls are popular. Well some sports with balls are more popular than others. But the ball isn’t what makes them popular.

I’ve played a whole lot of MMOs. My point is, if there are people out there like me (and clearly there are) we only have one place to go at this time, and that’s Guild Wars 2. People like you have many places to go.

If you make Guild Wars 2 like the other games, people like me will leave, and Guild Wars 2 will have to compete with all the other games that they’re suddenly like. That’s what I’m saying.

You seem to have missed my point completely.

To make Nutshell even shorter – GW2 has no end game. I just finished Tomb Raider, was at 62% then i did it , it means i’ve missed all hidden areas and stuff like that but i wont even bother searching for them. Same goes to GW2 , you finish story , get to 80 and when what? It should be pvp then but GW2 blew its pvp so bad its not worth time spent playing it.

Erasculio.2914:

Galtrix.7369:

How many games with gear grind can I consider successful? Nearly every single game with gear grind has been successful. WoW, Runes of Magic, Rift, every korean mmorpg on earth, Everquest, Lord of the Rings online, Ragnarok, Star Wars the Old Republic, Fiesta online, Perfect World, and the list goes on.

Most of those failed, at least in the West.

How many MMORPGs without gear grind have failed in this side of the world?

Sure, mmorpgs die of course, as do all games eventually. You can count them successful when they’ve lived as long kitten years, which all of them have. WoW is still going strong, as well as Perfect World, Lotro, and Runes of Magic. I can pretty much guarantee GW2 will not last as long as even Runes of Magic.

Galtrix.7369:

You can count them successful when they’ve lived as long kitten years, which all of them have.

Uh… Not really. The Old Republic was considered a failure by EA itself. All the games you mentioned, sans WoW, lost most of their players a few months after release. See by yourself.

Meanwhile, which MMORPG without a gear grind has suffered the same?

Galtrix.7369:

Erasculio.2914:

Galtrix.7369:

How many games with gear grind can I consider successful? Nearly every single game with gear grind has been successful. WoW, Runes of Magic, Rift, every korean mmorpg on earth, Everquest, Lord of the Rings online, Ragnarok, Star Wars the Old Republic, Fiesta online, Perfect World, and the list goes on.

Most of those failed, at least in the West.

How many MMORPGs without gear grind have failed in this side of the world?

Sure, mmorpgs die of course, as do all games eventually. You can count them successful when they’ve lived as long kitten years, which all of them have. WoW is still going strong, as well as Perfect World, Lotro, and Runes of Magic. I can pretty much guarantee GW2 will not last as long as even Runes of Magic.

You can guarantee no such thing.

Galtrix.7369:

Not to be rude, but it sounds like you haven’t played a lot of mmo’s. That may or may not be true, so I’ll not accuse you of not knowing what you’re talking about. How many games with gear grind can I consider successful? Nearly every single game with gear grind has been successful. WoW, Runes of Magic, Rift, every korean mmorpg on earth, Everquest, Lord of the Rings online, Ragnarok, Star Wars the Old Republic, Fiesta online, Perfect World, and the list goes on. The point I’m trying to make is that you may pretend not to like gear grind, but it’s the only thing that keeps many, many people interested until end-game. Everquest was the first to implement this idea, and Blizzard was smart enough to go along with it. No current mmo has even tried to change that gear grind until Guild Wars 2, and a ton of people don’t like that the gear is so easily attainable. I’ll give you a percentage. About 82% of people in my guild say they want more gear that will make them better. (This is just a rough estimate of the guild percentage) That’s 82% of 500 people. Because of this, I can safely say that the majority of players want way more gear to obtain and they don’t want to so easily obtain the max gear so early on. Without boasting it’s dynamic events, fun dungeons, and meta-bosses bigger than life itself, Guild Wars 2 would’ve died awhile ago.

There are a number of issues with your argument:

> States that nearly every gear grind game has been successful.
> Points out that no MMO has tried to change the gear grind until GW2.

To say that something is a ‘failure’ based on one sample doesn’t constitute as accurate evidence.

Second, how are you measuring success? Do you have stats for every single game you mentioned there? And do you have stats to show that gear grind is a leading contributor to their success?

Third, some of us aren’t ‘pretending’ that we don’t like gear grind. Some of us genuinely don’t. Unsure where you got that idea from.

Fourth, just because 410 people in your guild agree with you, that doesn’t mean that the majority do. Unsure how you could even present this as a valid argument.

Galtrix.7369:

Erasculio.2914:

Galtrix.7369:

How many games with gear grind can I consider successful? Nearly every single game with gear grind has been successful. WoW, Runes of Magic, Rift, every korean mmorpg on earth, Everquest, Lord of the Rings online, Ragnarok, Star Wars the Old Republic, Fiesta online, Perfect World, and the list goes on.

Most of those failed, at least in the West.

How many MMORPGs without gear grind have failed in this side of the world?

Sure, mmorpgs die of course, as do all games eventually. You can count them successful when they’ve lived as long kitten years, which all of them have. WoW is still going strong, as well as Perfect World, Lotro, and Runes of Magic. I can pretty much guarantee GW2 will not last as long as even Runes of Magic.

Galtrix, you may, or may not be right.

But one thing I can pretty much guarantee you is, that if GW2 try’s to compete with WoW, Lotro, ect …. on their terms (vertical stat-based progression, trinty, ect…), then yes, you will in fact be very correct.

Truthfully you should not look to video games to be “epic” in your life a lot like books and movies they should be more on the lines of short fun that enhance your life but not become your life. Its the ppl you play with that makes things “epic” and not the actively it self.