Guild Wars 2

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

AdelaisAer.4109:

It’s not a contradiction. It’s a simple matter of fact. Higher level enemies give you more experience points and, hopefully, better loot. Or at least, that’s how it should be anyway.

According to whom?

I do things for fun in the game; I do map exploration a lot and run around and good off a lot, but when I kill enemies, they need to give me the proper amount of experience points

“Proper”, according to what? Your expectations as have been conditioned by other games that employ skinner-box reward treadmills?

Uh, proper according to my level and the champion’s level, maybe? Relativity sure seems important, don’t you think? If I am lvl 39 and I kill a lv. 10 enemy, I’d expect very little from it. But if I kill a boss monster my level, I’d expect way more out of it.

Everykittengame in the history of man kind has the simple system of relativity.

Devildoc.6721:

wollie.9751:

NEWSFLASH!

GW2 has a power plateau! its easy to get to. This was advertised many many many many times before release. Either get used to it or get out. It will not change, and us GW2 players do not want it to change. This game is different from most other games, its kinda why we like it.

Yes, and that’s fine, my main complaint, is that explorable mode dungeons, and jumping puzzles, and large scale meta events, reward paltry amounts of silver/copper.

I’m fine with the armor/weapons from explorable dungeons being no better than crafted pieces aside from looks. That’s fine.

The problem lies in 1 person wants a specific look, another person wants a different look, and another person doesn’t like any of the dungeon looks. Now how do you go about telling these people to run dungeons with you… it’s begging. They’ll run it for “fun” maybe once or twice, then they’ll be tired of it and will have to sludge through it for your sake for another 30 runs. That’s AWFUL design.

Make it worth their time too. Ideally, at least compensate more in game money. Ideally I believe there should be a daily explorable dungeon achievement that rewards 1 gold.

Would that be asking too much? Do 1 dungeon per day, get a gold, plus whatever drops in the dungeon. I think i could convince people easier to run dungeons if there was that.

This game is so tightfisted about awarding currency, the only real way to make money is to play the AH instead of playing the game.

GW1, yes, power traders still made the most money, but quests still gave decent money. Doing a DOA run you’d net about 50 platinum between quest reward and dropped gold.. Not counting the gemstones which you could sell to other players or save up for a handfull of runs (like 6) for an armbrace or tormented weapon which you could also sell to other players.

Here you run, get like 30s and get a bunch of SOULBOUND stuff that you can’t trade.

Unless you actually want the cosmetics for the weapon or armor, or need the gift for a legendary, or the sigil/rune, which, most of the time the sigils are terrible and the runes are not as good as runes you can get elsewhere…. dungeons aren’t worth running more than twice per path.

I totally agree with you. They need to add loadstones, ectos or some other desirable to the dungeon vendors so if you dont want the cosmetics you at least can spend your tokens on something. In general dungeons are to much of a grind right now and Anet has already said that they are changing that.

My post was not directed at people like you, but people who want fundamental changes to the core concepts of GW2. Of course they are going to tweak things.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Farming isn’t necessary, it’s your option.

Actually it isn’t an available option for the players since ANet introduced the diminishing returns game logic.

Lance Coolee.9480:

Fozzik.1742:

The only thing we’re talking about here is that a lot of players feel it’s a necessity to have everything in the game RIGHT NOW.

Incorrect. Listen to the arguments and don’t assume things.

We’re not arguing over the desire to make things easier in the game to obtain, but the manner in which they are obtained.

The game advocates a fun, enjoyable, “non-grindy” experience through the 1-80 gameplay, but then abruptly throws “now go do dungeon x 46 times” in your face. It’s ridiculous. I personally would like to see elaborate story chains (that may very well take as much time as the grind) to make these vendors available.

If you’re not 80, then you really can’t have any logical arguments over the gameplay at 80.

What you are missing is exactly what makes this game different from the games you think it should resemble, and exactly what makes the game fun-centric as opposed to reward-centric.

I will explain what you are missing, because clearly there are multiple people posting heavily on these forums who are completely blind to anything other than what they THINK should be true, rather than what actually IS.

At level 80, the game doesn’t “throw” anything in your face. Doing dungeons for tokens is an OPTION provided for players who enjoy doing dungeons, exactly like the options to do those same dungeons from level 30 on. Here’s the big thing you’re missing, though… at level 80, EVERYTHING you were doing before level 80 is still readily available for you to do. Your character scales to the content. You can play the entire world. Not just level 80 zones. Not just dungeons. The restrictions that you are claiming exist are created by you in your own mind, and are strictly the result of being completely reward-focused.

People see the entire world of content as not existing at all, simply because it does not provide the maximum possible rewards as fast as possible.

Once you realize this mistake, that all the content in the game is still available and playable at level 80, and can be just as fun as it was from 1-80 (when you aren’t totally focused on rewards), it makes the “you aren’t 80 so you don’t understand” argument completely moot. I don’t have to be 80 to know what the game is like at 80…because the game doesn’t change at 80!! It just continues to be the same wide variety of fun content in the same huge, immersive, content-rich world. The problem in this thread, and on these forums, is all the people who either think, or thought, that the game would change at level 80 into something else that they thought would be better, or that they personally enjoy more. I’m sorry that didn’t happen, but that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with the game. It’s just different than you expected.

Uh, proper according to my level and the champion’s level, maybe?

It’s not “proper”, it’s just what you expect, probably from playing reward-centric games. If the game design is specifically not reward-centric, then it would not be proper (according to the design philosophy) to consistently offer that kind of reward for such encounters, and it would be proper to install a system that diminishes the reward table via farming.

Which is, in fact, what we have in GW2.

Relativity sure seems important, don’t you think? If I am lvl 39 and I kill a lv. 10 enemy, I’d expect very little from it. But if I kill a boss monster my level, I’d expect way more out of it.

As I said, you are confusing “what is proper” and what you “should” get with what you just expect to get. The question is, why do you have those expectations in the first place, and why do you expect GW2 mechanisms to conform to them?

Everykittengame in the history of man kind has the simple system of relativity.

No, they don’t. Very, very few do, which just goes to show how much MMOGers have been programmed by the skinner box model WoW and WoW clones employ that they cannot even conceive of a game where you don’t get progressively rewarded.

Fozzik.1742:

Lance Coolee.9480:

Fozzik.1742:

The only thing we’re talking about here is that a lot of players feel it’s a necessity to have everything in the game RIGHT NOW.

Incorrect. Listen to the arguments and don’t assume things.

We’re not arguing over the desire to make things easier in the game to obtain, but the manner in which they are obtained.

The game advocates a fun, enjoyable, “non-grindy” experience through the 1-80 gameplay, but then abruptly throws “now go do dungeon x 46 times” in your face. It’s ridiculous. I personally would like to see elaborate story chains (that may very well take as much time as the grind) to make these vendors available.

If you’re not 80, then you really can’t have any logical arguments over the gameplay at 80.

What you are missing is exactly what makes this game different from the games you think it should resemble, and exactly what makes the game fun-centric as opposed to reward-centric.

I will explain what you are missing, because clearly there are multiple people posting heavily on these forums who are completely blind to anything other than what they THINK should be true, rather than what actually IS.

At level 80, the game doesn’t “throw” anything in your face. Doing dungeons for tokens is an OPTION provided for players who enjoy doing dungeons, exactly like the options to do those same dungeons from level 30 on. Here’s the big thing you’re missing, though… at level 80, EVERYTHING you were doing before level 80 is still readily available for you to do. Your character scales to the content. You can play the entire world. Not just level 80 zones. Not just dungeons. The restrictions that you are claiming exist are created by you in your own mind, and are strictly the result of being completely reward-focused.

People see the entire world of content as not existing at all, simply because it does not provide the maximum possible rewards as fast as possible.

Once you realize this mistake, that all the content in the game is still available and playable at level 80, and can be just as fun as it was from 1-80 (when you aren’t totally focused on rewards), it makes the “you aren’t 80 so you don’t understand” argument completely moot. I don’t have to be 80 to know what the game is like at 80…because the game doesn’t change at 80!! It just continues to be the same wide variety of fun content in the same huge, immersive, content-rich world.

Ironically, it’s basically because they are already level 80 that they don’t understand why their position is problematic; they are myopically focused on progression as if it is the only thing that matters, and is the only thing anyone really enjoys, and the only reason to play a game over and over and stay in the world.

Then, they wonder why the genre is “dead”, “boring”, and it’s all the samo samo; they don’t realize it’s because the skinner box model is, essentially, the same game over and over feeding/capitalizing on the same addiction/obsession model over and over.

Well said, btw.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Uh, proper according to my level and the champion’s level, maybe?

It’s not “proper”, it’s just what you expect, probably from playing reward-centric games. If the game design is specifically not reward-centric, then it would not be proper (according to the design philosophy) to consistently offer that kind of reward for such encounters, and it would be proper to install a system that diminishes the reward table via farming.

Which is, in fact, what we have in GW2.

Relativity sure seems important, don’t you think? If I am lvl 39 and I kill a lv. 10 enemy, I’d expect very little from it. But if I kill a boss monster my level, I’d expect way more out of it.

As I said, you are confusing “what is proper” and what you “should” get with what you just expect to get. The question is, why do you have those expectations in the first place, and why do you expect GW2 mechanisms to conform to them?

Everykittengame in the history of man kind has the simple system of relativity.

No, they don’t. Very, very few do, which just goes to show how much MMOGers have been programmed by the skinner box model WoW and WoW clones employ that they cannot even conceive of a game where you don’t get progressively rewarded.

Oh, alright. I’ll just go kill the endgame elder dragons, get 15 exp from them and a lemon, and then just keep running around maps and having fun. Yeah.

Just because you think GW2 isn’t “reward-centric” doesn’t mean that the rest of us shouldn’t expect to get better rewards. The majority of the fanbase is complaining. Are you saying that all of us have got GW2 wrong and are playing it wrong, and the way YOU are playing it is better than ours?

I am not saying the only way to have fun is to kill stuff for rewards. What I AM saying, however, is that I expect better things. Yes, I know, it’s what I expect.

But if it were just me saying that, then sure, I’d be in the wrong. But when hundreds of other people are saying the same thing I am, you know something’s wrong.

AdelaisAer.4109:

deriver.5381:

AdelaisAer.4109:

deriver.5381:

AdelaisAer.4109:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

AdelaisAer.4109:

Excuse me? Fun-centric? Oh yeah, it’s totally fun to have to try to kill a champion enemy for five minutes with four other people, only to finally get a loot from it, which happened to be a low level blue hammer. FUN!

If your idea of fun is reward-centric, GW2 probably isn’t the best game for you.

It’s not that my fun is reward-oriented, but I’d like to be properly rewarded when I do something. If I were to kill a low level enemy, I’d expect a crap item. But from a champion (which is pretty much like a boss enemy)? I expect better things. :/ It’s just common sense.

I took my time to mark your contradiction for yourself. What you said is the very definition of reward-oriented, where you demand to be rewarded for your time and effort.

I’ve killed plenty of champions on this game just because I wanted to see the place where they were and had to pass through them. I had my reasons, the fights were interesting (some of them could have been better tho) and my reward was the feeling that I managed to do what I wanted, in the end.

Yes, it could have dropped a +500 Infernal Sword of Eternal Death, it would have been great, but I didn’t find it unfun just because I had no drops.

It’s not a contradiction. It’s a simple matter of fact. Higher level enemies give you more experience points and, hopefully, better loot. Or at least, that’s how it should be anyway.

Obviously I don’t expect it to drop a legendary, but you know, at least something that matches its level at the very least (it was Lv. 36, I think? I got a lvl. 16 item).

I do things for fun in the game; I do map exploration a lot and run around and good off a lot, but when I kill enemies, they need to give me the proper amount of experience points (a lv. 5 boar isn’t going to give me 10,000 exp, right? Only about 10 or so). That’s all. > >;

If you have been given a lower level loot, it was probably because you were playing on a lower level map, am I right?

The game has a system in place that, if you are downleveling yourself to play on a lower level zone, you may or may not get loot based on your real level. Sometimes the loot will be based to the level of the zone. This may have been the case for you.

>Lv. 35~36 Champion
>Lower level map

No, you are not right. I am well aware of down-leveling, but I wasn’t in a low level map. In fact, the other people who were with me all had the exact same complaints as me. We enjoyed the champion battle, don’t get me wrong, but we were disappointed in the loots. The only thing decent was the experience points given to us.

Well in this case I agree with you then. I dont think a drop, if the game ever decided to give you one, should be of a lower level than the content you are experiencing at that moment. There is just no reason for that.

The encounter could have not given you any loot bags, but if it did, the loot should be level appropriate, in my opinion, at least.

Lance Coolee.9480:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Farming isn’t necessary, it’s your option.

Actually it isn’t an available option for the players since ANet introduced the diminishing returns game logic.

It’s still an option; you can still get it faster than you normally would, they’ve just made it less “faster” than it was.

deriver.5381:

AdelaisAer.4109:

deriver.5381:

AdelaisAer.4109:

deriver.5381:

AdelaisAer.4109:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

AdelaisAer.4109:

Excuse me? Fun-centric? Oh yeah, it’s totally fun to have to try to kill a champion enemy for five minutes with four other people, only to finally get a loot from it, which happened to be a low level blue hammer. FUN!

If your idea of fun is reward-centric, GW2 probably isn’t the best game for you.

It’s not that my fun is reward-oriented, but I’d like to be properly rewarded when I do something. If I were to kill a low level enemy, I’d expect a crap item. But from a champion (which is pretty much like a boss enemy)? I expect better things. :/ It’s just common sense.

I took my time to mark your contradiction for yourself. What you said is the very definition of reward-oriented, where you demand to be rewarded for your time and effort.

I’ve killed plenty of champions on this game just because I wanted to see the place where they were and had to pass through them. I had my reasons, the fights were interesting (some of them could have been better tho) and my reward was the feeling that I managed to do what I wanted, in the end.

Yes, it could have dropped a +500 Infernal Sword of Eternal Death, it would have been great, but I didn’t find it unfun just because I had no drops.

It’s not a contradiction. It’s a simple matter of fact. Higher level enemies give you more experience points and, hopefully, better loot. Or at least, that’s how it should be anyway.

Obviously I don’t expect it to drop a legendary, but you know, at least something that matches its level at the very least (it was Lv. 36, I think? I got a lvl. 16 item).

I do things for fun in the game; I do map exploration a lot and run around and good off a lot, but when I kill enemies, they need to give me the proper amount of experience points (a lv. 5 boar isn’t going to give me 10,000 exp, right? Only about 10 or so). That’s all. > >;

If you have been given a lower level loot, it was probably because you were playing on a lower level map, am I right?

The game has a system in place that, if you are downleveling yourself to play on a lower level zone, you may or may not get loot based on your real level. Sometimes the loot will be based to the level of the zone. This may have been the case for you.

>Lv. 35~36 Champion
>Lower level map

No, you are not right. I am well aware of down-leveling, but I wasn’t in a low level map. In fact, the other people who were with me all had the exact same complaints as me. We enjoyed the champion battle, don’t get me wrong, but we were disappointed in the loots. The only thing decent was the experience points given to us.

Well in this case I agree with you then. I dont think a drop, if the game ever decided to give you one, should be of a lower level than the content you are experiencing at that moment. There is just no reason for that.

The encounter could have not given you any loot bags, but if it did, the loot should be level appropriate, in my opinion, at least.

THANK YOU. THIS RIGHT HERE IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO THE OTHER GUY. But you know, who cares about loot? We should all just have fun!

EDIT: Apparently, if I put a lot of U’s in FUN, it censors it as kitten. Okay then…

Fozzik.1742:

Lance Coolee.9480:

Fozzik.1742:

The only thing we’re talking about here is that a lot of players feel it’s a necessity to have everything in the game RIGHT NOW.

Incorrect. Listen to the arguments and don’t assume things.

We’re not arguing over the desire to make things easier in the game to obtain, but the manner in which they are obtained.

The game advocates a fun, enjoyable, “non-grindy” experience through the 1-80 gameplay, but then abruptly throws “now go do dungeon x 46 times” in your face. It’s ridiculous. I personally would like to see elaborate story chains (that may very well take as much time as the grind) to make these vendors available.

If you’re not 80, then you really can’t have any logical arguments over the gameplay at 80.

What you are missing is exactly what makes this game different from the games you think it should resemble, and exactly what makes the game fun-centric as opposed to reward-centric.

I will explain what you are missing, because clearly there are multiple people posting heavily on these forums who are completely blind to anything other than what they THINK should be true, rather than what actually IS.

At level 80, the game doesn’t “throw” anything in your face. Doing dungeons for tokens is an OPTION provided for players who enjoy doing dungeons, exactly like the options to do those same dungeons from level 30 on. Here’s the big thing you’re missing, though… at level 80, EVERYTHING you were doing before level 80 is still readily available for you to do. Your character scales to the content. You can play the entire world. Not just level 80 zones. Not just dungeons. The restrictions that you are claiming exist are created by you in your own mind, and are strictly the result of being completely reward-focused.

People see the entire world of content as not existing at all, simply because it does not provide the maximum possible rewards as fast as possible.

Once you realize this mistake, that all the content in the game is still available and playable at level 80, and can be just as fun as it was from 1-80 (when you aren’t totally focused on rewards), it makes the “you aren’t 80 so you don’t understand” argument completely moot. I don’t have to be 80 to know what the game is like at 80…because the game doesn’t change at 80!! It just continues to be the same wide variety of fun content in the same huge, immersive, content-rich world. The problem in this thread, and on these forums, is all the people who either think, or thought, that the game would change at level 80 into something else that they thought would be better, or that they personally enjoy more. I’m sorry that didn’t happen, but that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with the game. It’s just different than you expected.

Again, you’re a clear victim of false assumptions. I have been playing the game content AND I THOROUGHLY ENJOY IT. The Shatterer, Tequatl, and Jormag still haven’t gotten old for me; however, that content (which is very cool the first couple of times) gets old real fast because it lacks complexity and difficulty.

Also, go find me someone who has a complete dungeon armor set and ask their opinion on the gameplay experience to obtain it. You can’t possibly sit here and advocate that it’s ok to grind, just because ANet says it’s ok. Nor can you justify it by arguing that “it’s optional, if you don’t like it don’t do it”. I have been following ANet and GW2 for almost 2 years and every step of the way, they held strong on their philosophy that they didn’t want any aspect of the game to feel like it was repetitive (optional or not). So yes, I am thoroughly dissapointed when I come in to find aspects of the game that clearly dictate a need grind (dungeon armor, kharma armor). I expected something better, not less difficult, but better.

Pay attention because I’ll say this again: WE WANT THE DIFFICULTY, WE DON’T WANT THE REPETITION.

AdelaisAer.4109:

Just because you think GW2 isn’t “reward-centric” doesn’t mean that the rest of us shouldn’t expect to get better rewards.

You can expect whatever you want. I’m explaining to you why your expectations are not being met and probably will not be met in GW2, considering what I know of GW1 and ANET’s game-design philosophy.

The majority of the fanbase is complaining.

You and I have no way of knowing what the “majority” opinion is.

Are you saying that all of us have got GW2 wrong and are playing it wrong, and the way YOU are playing it is better than ours?

I make my case about the design philosophy of GW2 based on ANET’s own manifesto, what they’ve said, how they ran GW1 9, and their actions since release. As far as playing a game right or wrong, or who’s playstyle is “better”, I’ve got 150 hours and enjoy playing immensely every time I log in. I love, love, love this game. I can see myself playing this game for years and years, and spending quite a bit in the cash shop (already dropped $40 on bank space).

The case I’m making isn’t that your playstyle is “wrong”, just that as it is isn’t suited to enjoying GW2 because it isn’t the kind of game you expect or are used to. If “better” means I enjoy GW2 more than some others here, then yes, the way I play is “better” because I’m enjoying it more. That doesn’t mean your playstyle or expectations are wrong per se, but just that maybe they aren’t suitable to GW2.

I am not saying the only way to have fun is to kill stuff for rewards. What I AM saying, however, is that I expect better things. Yes, I know, it’s what I expect.

And your expectations are not being met, which is my point: the game is not reward-centric. If not getting a reward for the things you do in the game is so dissatisfying that you are motivated to complain about it on the forums, then I suggest your motivation for playing is more reward-centric than ANET philosophy will accommodate.

But if it were just me saying that, then sure, I’d be in the wrong. But when hundreds of other people are saying the same thing I am, you know something’s wrong.

Not really. All we know is that there are a certain number of people (I don’t know if it’s in the hundreds here, but you’d expect at least hundreds of people complaining from a pool of over 2 million in sales) whose expectations are not being met and are here complaining about it. Generally, you only hear from dissatisfied customers, not the satisfied ones. Considering ANET’s core game design philosophy runs counter to the general skinner-box design of most current MMOG’s, you’d expect to have this kind of reaction from many players who went into GW2 with these kind of expectations.

Lets face the facts, this or any other MMOG may not hold our attention long enough to accomplish every goal the game has to offer. Our time is limited by real-life considerations and may be limited by the availability of competing products. Just because GW2 is a great game, does not mean that other games aren’t worth our time. Taking a slower path to in-game goals doesn’t increase our fun from playing the game.

I spent less than 2000 hours on my six year old GW account, in that time I managed to accomplish many things. I know of several players who were a lot more dedicated and spent in excess of 5000 hours on the game. Of course they were able to accomplish much more than myself, but for the amount of play-time I invested I think I did pretty well. I retired from the game often but it was easy to come back to. And I have the benefit of personal experience with a lot of other MMOG’s which were all fun while i was playing them.

I tend to spend very long hours on my gaming hobby and it is a bit of an obsession, but I never feel boredom.

I find it true of every MMOG, that there is a core of dedicated and loyal fans, but the majority of players are more fickle. All game developers will try to make improvements to the game in progress and inevitably some of those efforts will be unpopular. If it’s your business plan to retain player-base it’s hard to do the right thing. No matter what ArenaNet has accomplished with GW2, some of the players are going to be unhappy and I’m already seeing plenty of that sentiment.

But I still love the game even though I’m unable to farm fine mats as efficiently as I’d like!

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

AdelaisAer.4109:

Just because you think GW2 isn’t “reward-centric” doesn’t mean that the rest of us shouldn’t expect to get better rewards.

You can expect whatever you want. I’m explaining to you why your expectations are not being met and probably will not be met in GW2, considering what I know of GW1 and ANET’s game-design philosophy.

The majority of the fanbase is complaining.

You and I have no way of knowing what the “majority” opinion is.

Are you saying that all of us have got GW2 wrong and are playing it wrong, and the way YOU are playing it is better than ours?

I make my case about the design philosophy of GW2 based on ANET’s own manifesto, what they’ve said, how they ran GW1 9, and their actions since release. As far as playing a game right or wrong, or who’s playstyle is “better”, I’ve got 150 hours and enjoy playing immensely every time I log in. I love, love, love this game. I can see myself playing this game for years and years, and spending quite a bit in the cash shop (already dropped $40 on bank space).

The case I’m making isn’t that your playstyle is “wrong”, just that as it is isn’t suited to enjoying GW2 because it isn’t the kind of game you expect or are used to. If “better” means I enjoy GW2 more than some others here, then yes, the way I play is “better” because I’m enjoying it more. That doesn’t mean your playstyle or expectations are wrong per se, but just that maybe they aren’t suitable to GW2.

I am not saying the only way to have fun is to kill stuff for rewards. What I AM saying, however, is that I expect better things. Yes, I know, it’s what I expect.

And your expectations are not being met, which is my point: the game is not reward-centric. If not getting a reward for the things you do in the game is so dissatisfying that you are motivated to complain about it on the forums, then I suggest your motivation for playing is more reward-centric than ANET philosophy will accommodate.

But if it were just me saying that, then sure, I’d be in the wrong. But when hundreds of other people are saying the same thing I am, you know something’s wrong.

Not really. All we know is that there are a certain number of people (I don’t know if it’s in the hundreds here, but you’d expect at least hundreds of people complaining from a pool of over 2 million in sales) whose expectations are not being met and are here complaining about it. Generally, you only hear from dissatisfied customers, not the satisfied ones. Considering ANET’s core game design philosophy runs counter to the general skinner-box design of most current MMOG’s, you’d expect to have this kind of reaction from many players who went into GW2 with these kind of expectations.

“Well in this case I agree with you then. I dont think a drop, if the game ever decided to give you one, should be of a lower level than the content you are experiencing at that moment. There is just no reason for that.

The encounter could have not given you any loot bags, but if it did, the loot should be level appropriate, in my opinion, at least." -deriver.5381

/argument

That right there is my whole point, and with that, the argument is over.

So yes, I am thoroughly dissapointed when I come in to find aspects of the game that clearly dictate a need grind (dungeon armor, kharma armor). I expected something better, not less difficult, but better.

What do you need dungeon or kharma armor for?

AdelaisAer.4109:

That right there is my whole point, and with that, the argument is over.

Because some other guy agrees with you, the argument is over?

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

AdelaisAer.4109:

That right there is my whole point, and with that, the argument is over.

Because some other guy agrees with you, the argument is over?

Well, no. It’s more because the point we both make is also the point that many other people in the forums make while you seem to be all about “yes to fun, no to rewards! This isn’t WoW!”

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

So yes, I am thoroughly dissapointed when I come in to find aspects of the game that clearly dictate a need grind (dungeon armor, kharma armor). I expected something better, not less difficult, but better.

What do you need dungeon or kharma armor for?

Is this a legit question? If you don’t know what they’re used for, you really shouldn’t be arguing against anyone in this thread.

If you do know what they’re used for and are fishing for an argument, then I’ll stop you right there. You don’t “need” to do anything in this game, you can turn it off and walk away – no harm, no foul. Except some of us really had some positive expectations about GW2’s gameplay only to be presented with “ok well if you REAAALLLLY want it, we’re going to make you grind the hell out of it” – which was COMPLETELY contrary to what they led us to believe.

AdelaisAer.4109:

THANK YOU. THIS RIGHT HERE IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO THE OTHER GUY. But you know, who cares about loot? We should all just have fun!

EDIT: Apparently, if I put a lot of U’s in FUN, it censors it as kitten. Okay then…

He said that in his opinion, it should be level appropriate. I disagree. IMO, if the game design is not reward-centric, then:

1) Mobs shouldn’t always drop loot;
2) Mobs should only drop loot up to level-appropriate loot;
3) Mob loot tables should have an anti-farming code that decreases the loot table when farming is likely going on.
4) Boss mobs should have, in their loot table, the chance of getting better rated, level-appropriate gear, and the anti-farming code should apply to them as well.

Lance Coolee.9480:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

So yes, I am thoroughly dissapointed when I come in to find aspects of the game that clearly dictate a need grind (dungeon armor, kharma armor). I expected something better, not less difficult, but better.

What do you need dungeon or kharma armor for?

Is this a legit question? If you don’t know what they’re used for, you really shouldn’t be arguing against anyone in this thread.

If you do know what they’re used for and are fishing for an argument, then I’ll stop you right there. You don’t “need” to do anything in this game, you can turn it off and walk away – no harm, no foul. Except some of us really had some positive expectations about GW2’s gameplay only to be presented with “ok well if you REAAALLLLY want it, we’re going to make you grind the hell out of it” – which was COMPLETELY contrary to what they led us to believe.

I agree with you completely. We had expectations based on what they have been telling us since the game was first announced, and now that we ask “Well?”, people like Wintyre Fraust try to justify it by telling us we don’t “need” the things we were promised, because, you know…it’s all about having fun, right?

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

AdelaisAer.4109:

THANK YOU. THIS RIGHT HERE IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO THE OTHER GUY. But you know, who cares about loot? We should all just have fun!

EDIT: Apparently, if I put a lot of U’s in FUN, it censors it as kitten. Okay then…

He said that in his opinion, it should be level appropriate. I disagree. IMO, if the game design is not reward-centric, then:

1) Mobs shouldn’t always drop loot;
2) Mobs should only drop loot up to level-appropriate loot;
3) Mob loot tables should have an anti-farming code that decreases the loot table when farming is likely going on.
4) Boss mobs should have, in their loot table, the chance of getting better rated, level-appropriate gear, and the anti-farming code should apply to them as well.

That’s YOUR opinion, which seems to be VERY unpopular. Go browse the forums and you will see that many people (if not the majority) share the exact same opinion as me, which is the opposite of yours.

If you don’t want to be rewarded, that’s fine. By all means, go kill things for fun. But why should the rest of us suffer, huh?

Lance Coolee.9480:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

So yes, I am thoroughly dissapointed when I come in to find aspects of the game that clearly dictate a need grind (dungeon armor, kharma armor). I expected something better, not less difficult, but better.

What do you need dungeon or kharma armor for?

Is this a legit question? If you don’t know what they’re used for, you really shouldn’t be arguing against anyone in this thread.

If you do know what they’re used for and are fishing for an argument, then I’ll stop you right there. You don’t “need” to do anything in this game, you can turn it off and walk away – no harm, no foul. Except some of us really had some positive expectations about GW2’s gameplay only to be presented with “ok well if you REAAALLLLY want it, we’re going to make you grind the hell out of it” – which was COMPLETELY contrary to what they led us to believe.

You said it’s a “need” grind. I asked a question because I don’t know the answer. What do you need karma or dungeon armor for?

AdelaisAer.4109:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

AdelaisAer.4109:

THANK YOU. THIS RIGHT HERE IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO THE OTHER GUY. But you know, who cares about loot? We should all just have fun!

EDIT: Apparently, if I put a lot of U’s in FUN, it censors it as kitten. Okay then…

He said that in his opinion, it should be level appropriate. I disagree. IMO, if the game design is not reward-centric, then:

1) Mobs shouldn’t always drop loot;
2) Mobs should only drop loot up to level-appropriate loot;
3) Mob loot tables should have an anti-farming code that decreases the loot table when farming is likely going on.
4) Boss mobs should have, in their loot table, the chance of getting better rated, level-appropriate gear, and the anti-farming code should apply to them as well.

That’s YOUR opinion, which seems to be VERY unpopular. Go browse the forums and you will see that many people (if not the majority) share the exact same opinion as me, which is the opposite of yours.

If you don’t want to be rewarded, that’s fine. By all means, go kill things for fun. But why should the rest of us suffer, huh?

Regardless if his opinion is unpopular or not shouldn’t have a bearing on a logical conversation.

What I do have issues with however is all of this ridiculous argument AGAINST the folks trying to make the game better for everyone with no valid reasoning or logic behind it.

I myself am in software development, and I cannot even begin to explain how many very popular products wouldn’t even exist had it not been for those hardcore early adopters who literally beat the crap out of a product to find out where it faulted or where it could be improved. It’s literally FREE QA.

I would like to have thought this community would attempt to help those of us who are working to make this game better (not just those complaining about it, but those of us who are offering thought out, logical solutions to what we perceive as problems). Rather instead, what we get is this ridiculous white knight nonsense of “there’s nothing wrong with the game, ur doing it wrong”.

Lance Coolee.9480:

Again, you’re a clear victim of false assumptions. I have been playing the game content AND I THOROUGHLY ENJOY IT. The Shatterer, Tequatl, and Jormag still haven’t gotten old for me; however, that content (which is very cool the first couple of times) gets old real fast because it lacks complexity and difficulty.

Also, go find me someone who has a complete dungeon armor set and ask their opinion on the gameplay experience to obtain it. You can’t possibly sit here and advocate that it’s ok to grind, just because ANet says it’s ok. Nor can you justify it by arguing that “it’s optional, if you don’t like it don’t do it”. I have been following ANet and GW2 for almost 2 years and every step of the way, they held strong on their philosophy that they didn’t want any aspect of the game to feel like it was repetitive (optional or not). So yes, I am thoroughly dissapointed when I come in to find aspects of the game that clearly dictate a need grind (dungeon armor, kharma armor). I expected something better, not less difficult, but better.

Pay attention because I’ll say this again: WE WANT THE DIFFICULTY, WE DON’T WANT THE REPETITION.

Once again, as has been explained several times, it is impossible for any company to create infinite content for people who consume it so fast. No company can do that, and they never have. There is going to be repetition…. just like any other type of game. The question is whether you enjoy the game play enough that you want to do it again and again. If you don’t, they can’t possibly provide you with fresh content and rewards forever. It’s impossible. There has to be an end.

If you honestly have done 100% of the content in the game, and don’t enjoy repeating any of it… you’re done for now. Wait for an expansion and more content. That’s the only solution that makes any sense. There is nothing ArenaNet will be able to do that will satisfy you if you completed hundreds of hours of content in one month. Sorry, but adding some artificial treadmill isn’t really a solution to anything. If you got hundreds of hours of play that you admit was quite enjoyable…you got your $60 worth and then some. If you don’t want to repeat anything, don’t. Saying, “I don’t like playing, but I will if you give me all the loot really fast” is silly and self-defeating. After you have all the loot, what then?

Some people don’t like the dungeons, other people, like myself, really enjoy them and feel they are challenging and fun. Different strokes for different folks. I’m sure you’re aware that they are fixing bugs (which seems to be the root of what a lot of people are complaining about) and adjusting rewards. It’s possible that most of the things people are going ape over will be totally fixed in a few weeks, and all you’ll have to show for it is high blood pressure.

Lance Coolee.9480:

AdelaisAer.4109:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

AdelaisAer.4109:

THANK YOU. THIS RIGHT HERE IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO THE OTHER GUY. But you know, who cares about loot? We should all just have fun!

EDIT: Apparently, if I put a lot of U’s in FUN, it censors it as kitten. Okay then…

He said that in his opinion, it should be level appropriate. I disagree. IMO, if the game design is not reward-centric, then:

1) Mobs shouldn’t always drop loot;
2) Mobs should only drop loot up to level-appropriate loot;
3) Mob loot tables should have an anti-farming code that decreases the loot table when farming is likely going on.
4) Boss mobs should have, in their loot table, the chance of getting better rated, level-appropriate gear, and the anti-farming code should apply to them as well.

That’s YOUR opinion, which seems to be VERY unpopular. Go browse the forums and you will see that many people (if not the majority) share the exact same opinion as me, which is the opposite of yours.

If you don’t want to be rewarded, that’s fine. By all means, go kill things for fun. But why should the rest of us suffer, huh?

Regardless if his opinion is unpopular or not shouldn’t have a bearing on a logical conversation.

What I do have issues with however is all of this ridiculous argument AGAINST the folks trying to make the game better for everyone with no valid reasoning or logic behind it.

I myself am in software development, and I cannot even begin to explain how many very popular products wouldn’t even exist had it not been for those hardcore early adopters who literally beat the crap out of a product to find out where it faulted or where it could be improved. It’s literally FREE QA.

I would like to have thought this community would attempt to help those of us who are working to make this game better (not just those complaining about it, but those of us who are offering thought out, logical solutions to what we perceive as problems). Rather instead, what we get is this ridiculous white knight nonsense of “there’s nothing wrong with the game, ur doing it wrong”.

That’s my problem with that guy. I am making a logical point – drops should be level appropriate. That’s logical, right?

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

Lance Coolee.9480:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

So yes, I am thoroughly dissapointed when I come in to find aspects of the game that clearly dictate a need grind (dungeon armor, kharma armor). I expected something better, not less difficult, but better.

What do you need dungeon or kharma armor for?

Is this a legit question? If you don’t know what they’re used for, you really shouldn’t be arguing against anyone in this thread.

If you do know what they’re used for and are fishing for an argument, then I’ll stop you right there. You don’t “need” to do anything in this game, you can turn it off and walk away – no harm, no foul. Except some of us really had some positive expectations about GW2’s gameplay only to be presented with “ok well if you REAAALLLLY want it, we’re going to make you grind the hell out of it” – which was COMPLETELY contrary to what they led us to believe.

You said it’s a “need” grind. I asked a question because I don’t know the answer. What do you need karma or dungeon armor for?

I never said you “needed” karma or dungeon armor for anything, I did say you “needed” to grind if you wanted it; which again, feels very much like a shoehorned way of extending the gameplay experience, contrary to what ANet often preached as their philosophy.

Again, find me one person who actually has a dungeon or kharma exotic set and only then can you logically argue against those in this thread suggesting to improve the experience (not make it quicker, not make it less difficult) to obtain it.

Fozzik.1742:

Lance Coolee.9480:

Again, you’re a clear victim of false assumptions. I have been playing the game content AND I THOROUGHLY ENJOY IT. The Shatterer, Tequatl, and Jormag still haven’t gotten old for me; however, that content (which is very cool the first couple of times) gets old real fast because it lacks complexity and difficulty.

Also, go find me someone who has a complete dungeon armor set and ask their opinion on the gameplay experience to obtain it. You can’t possibly sit here and advocate that it’s ok to grind, just because ANet says it’s ok. Nor can you justify it by arguing that “it’s optional, if you don’t like it don’t do it”. I have been following ANet and GW2 for almost 2 years and every step of the way, they held strong on their philosophy that they didn’t want any aspect of the game to feel like it was repetitive (optional or not). So yes, I am thoroughly dissapointed when I come in to find aspects of the game that clearly dictate a need grind (dungeon armor, kharma armor). I expected something better, not less difficult, but better.

Pay attention because I’ll say this again: WE WANT THE DIFFICULTY, WE DON’T WANT THE REPETITION.

Once again, as has been explained several times, it is impossible for any company to create infinite content for people who consume it so fast. No company can do that, and they never have. There is going to be repetition…. just like any other type of game. The question is whether you enjoy the game play enough that you want to do it again and again. If you don’t, they can’t possibly provide you with fresh content and rewards forever. It’s impossible. There has to be an end.

If you honestly have done 100% of the content in the game, and don’t enjoy repeating any of it… you’re done for now. Wait for an expansion and more content. That’s the only solution that makes any sense. There is nothing ArenaNet will be able to do that will satisfy you if you completed hundreds of hours of content in one month. Sorry, but adding some artificial treadmill isn’t really a solution to anything. If you got hundreds of hours of play that you admit was quite enjoyable…you got your $60 worth and then some. If you don’t want to repeat anything, don’t. Saying, “I don’t like playing, but I will if you give me all the loot really fast” is silly and self-defeating. After you have all the loot, what then?

Some people don’t like the dungeons, other people, like myself, really enjoy them and feel they are challenging and fun. Different strokes for different folks. I’m sure you’re aware that they are fixing bugs (which seems to be the root of what a lot of people are complaining about) and adjusting rewards. It’s possible that most of the things people are going ape over will be totally fixed in a few weeks, and all you’ll have to show for it is high blood pressure.

Once again, as has been explained several times, nobody is asking for infinite content. We are looking for stuff to do (which is actually very different). If you were level 80, you would understand a little better what some of these restrictive barriers are between the player and the “fun”.

I’ve posted quite a few topics (with logical suggestions) that seem to only incite flamewars with those white knights who just have nothing else to do aside from troll forums.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/What-the-LFG-system-should-be/first

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

AdelaisAer.4109:

THANK YOU. THIS RIGHT HERE IS WHAT I AM TRYING TO EXPLAIN TO THE OTHER GUY. But you know, who cares about loot? We should all just have fun!

EDIT: Apparently, if I put a lot of U’s in FUN, it censors it as kitten. Okay then…

He said that in his opinion, it should be level appropriate. I disagree. IMO, if the game design is not reward-centric, then:

1) Mobs shouldn’t always drop loot;
2) Mobs should only drop loot up to level-appropriate loot;
3) Mob loot tables should have an anti-farming code that decreases the loot table when farming is likely going on.
4) Boss mobs should have, in their loot table, the chance of getting better rated, level-appropriate gear, and the anti-farming code should apply to them as well.

I almost completely agree with your points here. I don’t think the absence of a loot bag removes the fun of any content I can experience in this game. Actually I mostly get my gear from the trade post and I’m ok with that. I play to have fun and I do it BY enjoying every single aspect of the game while I play and I tend to get surprised everytime I level because I was so busy having fun that I didnt even realize I was close to it.

Now about your points:

When you say up to level appropriate items, I agree, but not completely. There are many items that serves no purpose other than to be sold as junk. Those, and that fact that we don’t always get loot bags from kills, already give diversity and removes us from the reward-centric concept. We can kill and get nothing and killing will still be fun.

But I do agree with AdelaisAer when he talks about proportionality. We differ from each other when I say that the lack of a loot bag wouldn’t make the encounter less fun to me, but I do agree with him that, there is just no reason for an underleveled loot on a hard encounter.

Easy to kill mobs can have underleveled loot all the time, they are easy, and we could, if we wanted to think about it from a realistic perspective, that his lower-than-average quality gear was part of what made him weaker. That is not the case when we are talking about a champion mob.

So, my point boils down to: sure, they can drop lower level stuff, but there is just no reason for that as the non-reward-centric concept is already part of the chance of no loot at all mechanic allied with the low xp and coins for mob farming.

Also, the proportinality is already in game in many places. Meta events always spawn huge chests with many quality items. It what you said was the case 100% of times, event-spawned reward chests shouldn’t even exist, don’t you think?

Lance Coolee.9480:

Once again, as has been explained several times, nobody is asking for infinite content. We are looking for stuff to do (which is actually very different). If you were level 80, you would understand a little better what some of these restrictive barriers are between the player and the “fun”.

I’ve posted quite a few topics (with logical suggestions) that seem to only incite flamewars with those white knights who just have nothing else to do aside from troll forums.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/What-the-LFG-system-should-be/first

Why would you be looking for things to do at level 80, when you had no problem seeing what there was to do at other levels? The things to do at level 80 are the same things there were to do at every other level. How many times must this be explained?

The problem is that you are looking for the game to change at level 80. You are expecting ArenaNet to provide different, special content at level 80. This is unecessary in their game design. The entire world is level 80 content, and works just the same way it has always worked during the leveling process.

The only way you would have nothing to do at level 80 is if you have completed the entire world 100% including doing all dynamic events and all dungeon routes, AND you refuse to repeat anything for any reason, including refusing to make alts and experience additional personal stories. So, in short, the only way to possibly complain there is nothing to do is if you:

-Ignore large amounts of content (due to the rewards not being maximized)
-Artificially limit yourself to only certain content (again, due to a self-created need to constantly maximize rewards).
-Refuse to ever repeat anything.

It should be pretty clear that all three of the above are pretty unreasonable in terms of expectations for a game company.

You feel there is a certain activity which will provide you rewards faster, and you want to grind the heck out of it, and you feel you can’t do that with maximum effectiveness unless ArenaNet changes the game. The point is that your premise is flawed, and ArenaNet shouldn’t feel obligated to support play styles which run completely counter to the game design. The game is designed for you to do lots of different activities and use the whole world of content, and to enjoy the game play for its own sake, rather than as a job you do to get endless loot. If you choose not to play as intended (totally your choice and barriers you put in place for yourself), you have only yourself to blame when your efficiency or experience is hampered.

Fozzik.1742:

Lance Coolee.9480:

Once again, as has been explained several times, nobody is asking for infinite content. We are looking for stuff to do (which is actually very different). If you were level 80, you would understand a little better what some of these restrictive barriers are between the player and the “fun”.

I’ve posted quite a few topics (with logical suggestions) that seem to only incite flamewars with those white knights who just have nothing else to do aside from troll forums.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/What-the-LFG-system-should-be/first

Why would you be looking for things to do at level 80, when you had no problem seeing what there was to do at other levels? The things to do at level 80 are the same things there were to do at every other level. How many times must this be explained?

The problem is that you are looking for the game to change at level 80. You are expecting ArenaNet to provide different, special content at level 80. This is unecessary in their game design. The entire world is level 80 content, and works just the same way it has always worked during the leveling process.

The only way you would have nothing to do at level 80 is if you have completed the entire world 100% including doing all dynamic events and all dungeon routes, AND you refuse to repeat anything for any reason, including refusing to make alts and experience additional personal stories. So, in short, the only way to possibly complain there is nothing to do is if you:

-Ignore large amounts of content (due to the rewards not being maximized) -Artificially limit yourself to only certain content (again, due to a self-created need to constantly maximize rewards).
-Refuse to ever repeat anything.

It should be pretty clear that all three of the above are pretty unreasonable in terms of expectations for a game company.

Don’t assume you know what I want or am looking for.

I have completed the map 100%. I also didn’t want the gameplay to change at level 80. If you listened to some legitimate arguments, you’d actually find that it was in fact, that the gameplay HAD changed at level 80 that’s go so many people frustrated. The leveling experience was awesome, but then level 80 and map completion came by and all of a sudden the game has a completely different tone.

Also, the entire world IS NOT level 80 content, otherwise it would be dropping gear and crafting material needed at level 80. I can’t get enough rares to drop (for the globs and for my cloth mats) to craft my exotic armor set because there aren’t enough people at the Orr DEs (even though there’s more than enough level 70+ players), and because they just don’t drop elsewhere on the map (because items mostly scale up to the level of the zone ur in – with the exception of those chest dropping DEs). This alone already restricts me to only a few zones which are already incredibly difficult and “grindy” to navigate.

So once again, if you haven’t experienced the issues we’re arguing against, don’t claim to be an authority on the topic.

If you are playing some other game for whatever reason, then you won’t be having fun in GW2. It seems a bit early in the game to have inactive guild members in our roster, but it seems that we do have some.

You guys can argue the pros and cons of the design as much as you like, but it’s not going to convince anyone to be more loyal to ArenaNet in the long run.

The minority opinion is always the correct opinion because it will govern the actions of a single individual.

Lance Coolee.9480:

I never said you “needed” karma or dungeon armor for anything, I did say you “needed” to grind if you wanted it; which again, feels very much like a shoehorned way of extending the gameplay experience, contrary to what ANet often preached as their philosophy.

Again, find me one person who actually has a dungeon or kharma exotic set and only then can you logically argue against those in this thread suggesting to improve the experience (not make it quicker, not make it less difficult) to obtain it.

You said it was a “need grind”; grinding is what you do for the purpose of getting something else (reward). Unless the reward is a needed reward, the grind cannot be a “need grind”. In WoW, you had to have the gear to move on to tougher content, so those grinds were “need grinds” in terms of game mechanics.

So, you have not been slapped in the face with a need grind; what you have is a vanity reward that only requires a “grind” if you choose to do dungeon or karma content more often than you otherwise would just because you enjoy it.

If I want more gold or levels than I would normally get by just doing things I find fun, then anything in the game can become a “grind”. That’s how you play when you are reward-centric, then you complain about the “grind” that you “need” to get the reward or vanity item you want.

The whole game can become a grind, if that is how I choose to play it. The only ones who are “grinding” anything are those that want to gain rewards or vanity items faster than they would if they experienced content for it’s own sake, and not for the sake of getting rewards or vanity items.

BTW, “better” is a subjective term. Not everyone has your apparent aversion to repetitive content, nor would they consider your “alternatives” to acquiring vanity items “better”.

Tell me, what is your plan for revamping how one acquires the gear in question, and how is it objectively “better” than the current system?

@Fozzik and Wintyre:

I really don’t understand what makes you two the self-proclaimed authority on what GW2 should or should not be.

1. You haven’t even experienced the full game, so how can you argue against the folks looking to make aspects of the game (that you haven’t even experienced) better?

2. You’re no ArenaNet spokesperson, so you’ve got no clue as to the intentions the company intends to take.

3. You’re not writing any of ArenaNet’s checks. So seriously, what authority do you have in dictating what they should or should not do with they’re time and resources?

There are some very thought out logical arguments around the gameplay. Either provide a valid argument, or keep your OPINIONS to yourselves. Let us who want to make suggestions, make them and let ArenaNet (and their check writers) decide what they have the bandwidth and resources to do.

So once again, if you haven’t experienced the issues we’re arguing against, don’t claim to be an authority on the topic.

Grinding and farming to get things faster than you normally would is not a method limited to level 80 characters. You can do that any time, for all sorts of reasons in the game. Unless you are slapped with an actual need grind at level 80, you have no argument other than “I don’t want to do what it takes to get the vanity items I want”.

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

The whole game can become a grind, if that is how I choose to play it.

The key difference being that with the leveling experience you have options.

You can choose to sit in one spot and kill the same mob until you hit level 80 OR you can choose to experience the world of content available to you.

This is not the case with explorable mode dungeons. Your options become very restricted regarding what you can do if you have your eyes set on a goal (a cosmetic armor set).

Again, I don’t know how many times I can state this, but nobody that I know of whom have argued the topic of the level 80 PvE experience is asking for things to be simpler and take less time, just that they aren’t as repetitive and have the same rewarding experience as they had while leveling.

This was only one of my assessments on how the problem “could” be solved.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/What-the-LFG-system-should-be/first

Drudenfusz.2971:

For some people getting rewards is an important part of their fun.

and there are plenty of MMOs for them

Lance Coolee.9480:

Don’t assume you know what I want or am looking for.

I’m only responding to what you are saying. If what you want is different than what you are saying you want, than what exactly are we doing here?

I have completed the map 100%.

Okay. So Now it’s a question of repeating some content, or taking a break. Again, these are the only options…because if you’ve done everything (I’m just taking it as a given that you’re telling the truth) there is to do in the game in one month, there’s literally no possible way any game company could create content fast enough. You’re going to have to repeat things if you want to keep playing.

If you have to repeat things (which we’ve established you do), then you could repeat any content in the whole world.

I also didn’t want the gameplay to change at level 80. If you listened to some legitimate arguments, you’d actually find that it was in fact, that the gameplay HAD changed at level 80 that’s go so many people frustrated. The leveling experience was awesome, but then level 80 and map completion came by and all of a sudden the game has a completely different tone.

Only because you artificially limited yourself due to your reward focus. Illustrated below…

Also, the entire world IS NOT level 80 content, otherwise it would be dropping gear and crafting material needed at level 80.

I can’t get enough rares to drop (for the globs and for my cloth mats) to craft my exotic armor set because there aren’t enough people at the Orr DEs (even though there’s more than enough level 70+ players), and because they just don’t drop elsewhere on the map (because items mostly scale up to the level of the zone ur in – with the exception of those chest dropping DEs). This alone already restricts me to only a few zones which are already incredibly difficult and “grindy” to navigate.

Read: REWARD FOCUS

You’re entire argument above centers on rewards. You can’t see what we’re getting at here? There’s nothing NEEDED at level 80…you can do any and all content with whatever gear and items you’ve found. You’re talking about things you WANT, not things you need.

You feel that if you aren’t getting maximum rewards, the content doesn’t exist. The truth is it’s still there to be done and redone. You could be mixing up your game time between content in the level 80 areas (when you’ve got the people or the desire) and content in the whole rest of the world to keep things more fresh and fun…but you aren’t. Why aren’t you? Because in your mind, if you aren’t getting the REWARDS constantly, there’s no point in playing. We’re saying the point of playing is the fun, not the rewards, primarily. It’s all level 80 content because it still works to provide you with fun (the same stuff you admit is fun throughout the leveling curve), rewards are secondary.

You’re complaints are caused by a box you created for yourself that you’re now sitting in and refusing to move. The game is different because you are making it different. You are choosing to limit the places you go and the content you play…solely because you are focused on rewards instead of having fun. When you were playing those areas that you said were fun during leveling…were you getting level 80 rewards? No? Then why do you HAVE to get those rewards now in order to enjoy anything?

And to top it all off, the idea that lower-level zones don’t offer useful loot is incorrect as well. They just provide it a bit slower. Level-appropriate items drop off of lower-level mobs (I’ve seen it myself, I got a level 62 rare item yesterday from a level 17 mob), and you still get gold, karma, and experience from events in lower level zones, which you can use to buy the mats you need.

So in fact, we aren’t even talking about you artificially limited yourself due to a lack of rewards…we’re talking about you artificially limiting yourself simply because the rewards would come a bit slower. You don’t see how you’re causing your own pain by not just enjoying the fun parts of the game? If there is something you REALLY want which can only be obtained from Orr, and you don’t really like those zones…mix it up with the stuff you do like to keep things fun. If it’s just a matter of gaining experience or karma or whatever, go to a zone you like and stop forcing yourself to be miserable.

Lance Coolee.9480:

@Fozzik and Wintyre:

I really don’t understand what makes you two the self-proclaimed authority on what GW2 should or should not be.

I haven’t proclaimed myself an authority; I argue from what ANET has said, from what they did over several years in GW1, their manifesto and their actions thus far in this game. Like you, I’m here advocating for my vision of GW2, which IMO is in line with what ANET has explicitly said their design philosophy is.

You are free to advocate for whatever you want; you’re free to advocate for permadeath, corpse looting, kung-fu panda bears and a full set of ultimate gear for $100 at the cash shop if you want. I’m free to counter your arguments and advocate otherwise.

1. You haven’t even experienced the full game, so how can you argue against the folks looking to make aspects of the game (that you haven’t even experienced) better?

ANET’s philosophy is that every level is, in core design philosophy, “the full game” in all important considerations other than, essentially, “skins”. Remember “the whole game is the end-game”? Also, the idea that you have experienced “the full game” just because you got to level 80 demonstrates that your view of what “the game” is runs counter to ANET philosophy, which is that you are experiencing “the full game” out of the gate – they don’t reserve anything significant for level 80.

I suggest that your WoW-clone level elitism is exactly that which is not served by GW2 design, and that employing it here as an appeal to the ignorance of those you debate (logic, did you say?), and your straw man of implying that I and others who disagree with you consider ourselves “authorities” demonstrate that your argument is not based in logic, but rather rhetoric.

2. You’re no ArenaNet spokesperson, so you’ve got no clue as to the intentions the company intends to take.

Yes, I have a clue, as does everyone who has performed their due diligence in reading the Manifesto and other material ANET has provided, and have read or experienced what they did in GW1, or watched their videos or listened to podcast interviews. Everything I see in this game, and everything they’ve done so far after release, IMO matches up exactly with that information.

So yes, many of us do have a “clue”, and more, because ANET explicitly said what their philosophy is about. The only reservation I had was whether or not they would live up to it, and whether or not they would have the huevos to stand up to this initial wave of inevitable complaint as standard MMOG expectations brought from other games were not met due to core design differences.

3. You’re not writing any of ArenaNet’s checks. So seriously, what authority do you have in dictating what they should or should not do with they’re time and resources?

That would be pertinent had I ever made such a claim or implication.

There are some very thought out logical arguments around the gameplay. Either provide a valid argument, or keep your OPINIONS to yourselves. Let us who want to make suggestions, make them and let ArenaNet (and their check writers) decide what they have the bandwidth and resources to do.

You are free to make whatever suggestions you want, and offer whatever opinions you want – btw, there is a suggestion forum available. I am free to make counter-arguments and counter-suggestions as I see fit. I am also free to post my opinions as I see fit.

@Fozzik:

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.

The problem is that you are looking for the game to change at level 80. You are expecting ArenaNet to provide different, special content at level 80.

What could have possibly eluded you to believe that’s what I wanted?

Read: REWARD FOCUS

I’m sorry, yes crafting is “reward focused”, so is playing the game, killing a dragon, participating in DEs, etc etc. Everything in this game is rewarding, otherwise people wouldn’t play it. My only arguments are in attempting to find solutions to fix the issues that aren’t as rewarding as others.

So in fact, we aren’t even talking about you artificially limited yourself due to a lack of rewards…we’re talking about you artificially limiting yourself simply because the rewards would come a bit slower.

Once again, another invalid argument. I’m having fun. Plenty of it. I’m leveling a warrior, participating in sPvP with my mesmer, and when I need a break from GW2, I go play BL2.

My (and plenty of others) arguments are in how to find solutions to issues that YOU haven’t even experienced.

Lance Coolee.9480:

Wintyre Fraust.6534:

The whole game can become a grind, if that is how I choose to play it.

The key difference being that with the leveling experience you have options.

You’ve just described the whole game as a “grind”, whereas the goal of “leveling” has “more options” to make it feel like less of a grind. IOW, your goal is to level or acquire rewards (levels) or vanity items, and the rest of the game is just a vehicle for acquiring those goals – and you assume this to be true of everyone else. The fact that you’ve reduced the “entire game” to nothing but “rewards” (including levels) is demonstrated by the fact that you call those who have reached level 80 as players that have experienced “the whole game”.

You can choose to sit in one spot and kill the same mob until you hit level 80 OR you can choose to experience the world of content available to you.

But, in your phrasing, it is for the goal of leveling. That’s what you don’t get.

I have never done anything in the game for the purpose of getting loot or for the purpose of leveling. GW2 is not about leveling or loot for me. You phrase everything in the game in terms of what other purpose it serves – vanity items or rewards (which includes leveling) What you do not understand is that I, and many others, do not do those things for the purpose of leveling, or for the purpose of getting rewards; those are just frosting on cake that is already very satisfying.

This is not the case with explorable mode dungeons. Your options become very restricted regarding what you can do if you have your eyes set on a goal (a cosmetic armor set).

In other words, you you are really just using world content to gain rewards (including levels) or vanity items. Your real complaint is that there is not enough variety there to distract you from the fact that you are, essentially, just interested in rewards or vanity items, and the whole rest of the world is nothing more than something to distract you from the time and effort your grind requires.

Lance Coolee.9480:

...

Hang in there Lance. I’m not at 80 either, so I can’t say I’ve experienced what you have. I do know I want the exotics as they are the max stat gear. It is an unfortunate ramification of any linear stat progression game, including Guild Wars 2, that stats will be a means of segregating populations into have and have nots. It just makes certain activities more manageable and for most people they will want to put forth their best effort for something, whether it’s for themselves or for the others they are grouping with. Arena Net knew Guild Wars 2 was going to be a linear stat progression game early on, and they also knew that they wanted "max stat" gear to be achievable by everyone through multiple means. I think they delivered on this aspect as I believe that you can get max stat gear through crafting, dungeon runs, karma vendors, and gold purchases (correct me if I’m wrong or add to this list). However, one or more of these might entail a grind (especially dungeon runs, but they’ve acknowledged this as a problem and are addressing it*).

My qualms with the game have little to do with the endgame philosophy or grind (but I’m not even looking at maxing gear until I hit 80), as I find many of the dynamic events fun and would not mind doing them again or revisiting old zones to see new events. However, it’d be nice if dynamic events scaled in difficulty on servers based on server success to make them more challenging. I’ve killed the Shatterer and enjoyed the beauty and scale of the encounter, but the challenge was not there.

* - https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Dungeon-Tokens-Account-Bound-please/first#post219034

If you are forced to repeat a specific piece of the content to get a specific piece of gear, that’s a grind. Whether that piece of gear is “cosmetic” as in GW2 or “opens up new content” as in other MMO’s is irrelevant.

If there’s only one way to get it, that you have to repeat over and over, it’s a grind.

If you had all of the world content available to get a specific piece of gear, that’s an open world design and is quite clearly what ANet were hinting at (if not outright promising).

I think the heart of the matter is that there are too many currencies in this game. If I could buy the dungeon piece I want with Karma, why would I ever go into the dungeons?

Well if I happen to not enjoy the dungeons, why should I? What if I prefer to explore the entire world?

I really, truly don’t understand the mentality behind these content-restrictive currencies.

It seems to be a case of the developers saying, “We don’t want any of our beautiful content to go begging for players. So we’re going to force some groups to go there and experience them.”

Well guys… make it enjoyable and people will go back over and over again. Anybody here ever “beat” a Mario Bro’s game and then play it again? <raises hand>

That’s because it was fun.

So rather than having a bajillion currencies to force people into content, how about looking at content that isn’t being utilized and tweaking it until people WANT to go back?

Am I breaking the laws of common sense somehow with this suggestion? I’m really curious because try as I might, I can not fathom how forcing people to do something that they DON’T want to do to get something that they do want is good design.

Please help me understand if I’m missing something here..

Lance Coolee.9480:

I’m sorry, yes crafting is “reward focused”, so is playing the game, killing a dragon, participating in DEs, etc etc. Everything in this game is rewarding, otherwise people wouldn’t play it. My only arguments are in attempting to find solutions to fix the issues that aren’t as rewarding as others.

Because people don’t play games that don’t materially or functionally reward them, right? Like angry birds? Or solitaire?

Everything in the game is not “rewarding”, Lance. See the definition of reward. Not “everything in the game” provides a material, game-functional reward. I’ve probably spent 20 hours in character creation. What is the material, game-functional reward for that activity? I’ve spent several hours standing around looking at the scenery, taking pics or videos. I spent a day wandering around a city I’d already gotten all my exploration points for chatting with NPCs to find out if any in that city offered variant city clothes or other hidden options. I found cool areas not identified on the map and without any rewards (as defined in the O.P. – exp, gold, functional items).

I’ve spent hours working on my dye combinations. What is the “reward” for that? What’s the reward for reading lore books? What’s the reward for going through all the conversations available from various NPCs? What’s the reward for listening to and laughing at all the funny dialogues you can find in areas of the game that offer no exploration exp? Do you know how much stuff there is in the game that is not officially rewarded at all? How many NPC interaction scenarios with dialogue there are to find that don’t offer any reward other than a chuckle or an “OMG!”

So you see, you think it is an “issue” that some areas of the game don’t offer either the expected rewards, or as much reward as other areas or venues, and that it is “logical” and “better” to try and bring those activities in line (in your opinion) with other reward scenarios because, ultimately, you see the game in terms of rewards.

When you say that you’ve experienced “the whole game” because you’re level 80, and that everything before level 80 is can be referred to as a “leveling experience”, you’ve betrayed the fact that you see the entire game in terms of rewards (including exp/leveling), and that sections of the games that don’t offer (in your opinion) an equitable reward mechanism need to be “fixed”.

@SirMoogie:

I am with you 100% with the open world PvE challenge. That’s why I had such high hopes for the dungeons, but was holistically disappointed the more I experienced them. Although DE’s are fun, they just aren’t challenging. You either have enough warm bodies around to complete the DE, or you ignore it.

@Derpinator:

I have advocated that exact point from day one. Dungeon currencies at it’s core promote repetitive behavior. I would LOVE to see a story line that would make a certain dungeon vendor available (which may very well include completing all of a dungeon’s story / explorable modes) and then allow kharma to be the currency of choice.

Regarding level 400 crafting: It was so wonderful that during the leveling experience, obtaining crafting materials just felt natural and was more of a by-product of enjoying the map; but you have to go out and actively farm for these level 400 mats in areas that are just far too tedious and expensive to do so. It’s like the entire gameplay experience changed the moment I hit 80 (although there are clear fun goals that haven’t changed, just the method to achieve them).

Doesn’t really matter what the game is to you Wintyer, your playstyle may be unique or simply uncommon. If other’s play the game differently, why should we have a problem with that. If people don’t like some of the content, our arguments won’t likely convince them that their opinions are wrong. It doesn’t matter how many people will disrespect the complainers, that’s not helping those players have more fun in the game.

Derpinator.2894:

Please help me understand if I’m missing something here..

You are missing a few things… I’m not saying I agree with them, but you asked. Some people do like competition and a sense of achievement over others. The “prestige” gear like legendaries and dungeon armor was put in to address that. They were supposed to show that someone put in great effort to get them, and in particular with dungeons, that they did something challenging. However, you’re right on the grind factor here. If you complete all three paths of a dungeon you should walk away with enough token for a armor set, and maybe a weapon or two. You’ve shown you can do the challenge in my opinion.

The other thing you’re missing is MMOs thrive by having an active population. If people leave the game there is less of a chance they’ll come back. When more people leave developers start asking the question of whether it is worth continuing. Sometimes this is a good thing as it can spur the developer into creating new content, or even a new game with more bells and whistles that couldn’t be achieved under the old engine. To help retain customers MMOs, especially pay for play ones, add grinding content to keep players in game longer. Eve if there were no cash shop or monthly fee there is something to be said about retaining an active population to do things with.

If you are forced to repeat a specific piece of the content to get a specific piece of gear, that’s a grind. Whether that piece of gear is “cosmetic” as in GW2 or “opens up new content” as in other MMO’s is irrelevant.

If there’s only one way to get it, that you have to repeat over and over, it’s a grind.

Convenient definitions do not an argument make. I can define “grind” as “having to kill enemies” or “having to craft” or “having to explore” and advocate that I should be able to just log my character in for X hours a week and have the legendary item mailed to me. Or then I could complain that logging in is a grind …

Derpinator.2894:

If you are forced to repeat a specific piece of the content to get a specific piece of gear, that’s a grind. Whether that piece of gear is “cosmetic” as in GW2 or “opens up new content” as in other MMO’s is irrelevant.

If there’s only one way to get it, that you have to repeat over and over, it’s a grind.

If you had all of the world content available to get a specific piece of gear, that’s an open world design and is quite clearly what ANet were hinting at (if not outright promising).

I think the heart of the matter is that there are too many currencies in this game. If I could buy the dungeon piece I want with Karma, why would I ever go into the dungeons?

Well if I happen to not enjoy the dungeons, why should I? What if I prefer to explore the entire world?

I really, truly don’t understand the mentality behind these content-restrictive currencies.

It seems to be a case of the developers saying, “We don’t want any of our beautiful content to go begging for players. So we’re going to force some groups to go there and experience them.”

Well guys… make it enjoyable and people will go back over and over again. Anybody here ever “beat” a Mario Bro’s game and then play it again? <raises hand>

That’s because it was fun.

So rather than having a bajillion currencies to force people into content, how about looking at content that isn’t being utilized and tweaking it until people WANT to go back?

Am I breaking the laws of common sense somehow with this suggestion? I’m really curious because try as I might, I can not fathom how forcing people to do something that they DON’T want to do to get something that they do want is good design.

Please help me understand if I’m missing something here..

No, this is pretty much common sense. But it seems common sense isn’t common, because Anet isn’t the only MMO developer that’s guilty of this sort of thing.

The problem, I think, stems from the idea that random loot drops are bad, and being able to control what armor you get is good. Thus, the “token” design that WoW originally created (and seems to have trickled down into other games). The idea behind it is that players want to know how many more times they have to run to be guaranteed the gear they want, rather than the unknown time disparity between those who get lucky, and those who don’t.

But this “solution” is very narrow-minded, because it assumes that dungeon rewards should be different from world rewards, and should be set apart specifically only for those who run the dungeons. The reality, however, is that gear progression should have multiple approaches, and the “path” you choose should be based on what you enjoy doing, not which armor set you want to end up with.

For example, what would happen if the karma and dungeon sets were all set to a single type of currency, and you could collect that currency through several different outlets within the game? You could collect it through dungeons, or DEs, or hearts, or killing champions, or very very rarely you could get it to drop from standard mobs (to include your typical “farming” type players).

I can’t think of a single good reason why this shouldn’t be the case. If the developers are worried that some parts of their game won’t get as much attention due to something like this, they should consider looking at the replayability and enjoyability present in that portion of the game, rather than forcing it on the playerbase.

Am I breaking the laws of common sense somehow with this suggestion? I’m really curious because try as I might, I can not fathom how forcing people to do something that they DON’T want to do to get something that they do want is good design.

If someone wants a level 80 character for PvE but doesn’t want to go through the leveling process, what then? If someone wants legendary gear but doesn’t want to do whatever ANET has programmed them to do to get it, what then? Offer it for sale in the cash shop? What if they don’t want to pay cash or have to get the in-game gold to buy it? What then?

Offering ways to get cosmetic pieces isn’t “forcing” anyone to do anything, by any reasonable definition of the term. If those things were required for something in-game, you’d have a case. Otherwise, the logical conclusion of your argument is that ANET should just give players whatever they want, however they want it, and for whatever they feel like doing or not doing.

Its like Skyrim. You play to max level, see as much of the world as you want and you’re done. Anything you do after that has no real rewards, because there’s nothing else to do and nothing really to gain. Create another character and do it again. There’s your $60. Put the game down for a few months and wait for an expansion. There’s another $35. That’s it.

I don’t think Anet had any intention of trying to hold onto PvE players much longer than a character or 2. Only the hardcore PvPers will bang their heads against a wall for months on end, essentially not accomplishing anything new. I think the PvE is very well done on its surface, but there is no long term plans to hold onto players unless you’re an alt-aholic.

I see no reason to do a dungeon more than once after reading the feedback. I didn’t mind doing dungeons over and over again in WOW, because I knew I’d get something cool or at least come out ahead. And it was fun for a while learning how to clear it. If a dungeon in GW2 doesn’t even pay out for the costs of armor repair, something is really messed up.