Guild Wars 2

Galen Grey.4709:

Ikcen.7518:

This game was promised as a sandbox MMO, but it’s not. It’s clean themepark. The difference between both is the interest. In themepark you play for losing time, or some statistics – GW2, in sandbox you play more, cause you change the game world. So many ideas in this game fail cause it’s themepark. Dynamic events fail, great bosses fail, WvW fail and etc. If you play or not, this change nothing in GW2. But Anet made other mistakes /for me/ too. They implement so much PvE solo, which with 4 guilds system, and lack of 1vs1 PvP, makes GW2 even not a real MMO, but some kind of classic single player game put on an online platform. That’s why I think GW2 will fade soon after the new generation MMO’s start.

For starter the game was never promised as a sandbox at all. It was promised as theme park thats has sandbox elements. Personally I feel thats exactly what they delivered.

For starters sandbox are not about changing the world at all. For example GTA is considered a sandbox and you dont change anything in the world there. The actual difference between theme park and sandbox is theme park provide a clear path you have to follow. A main story, Leveling quests from 1 -> max level that go one way etc.. Sandbox is more about the freedom of playing what you want. Gw2 has a little of that. Dynamic events are part of that for example. They dont have a set path you have to follow. They not tied to quest hubs which you go through as you level up like other theme parks. For example in Gw2 there is no problem reaching max level and then doing an event in Wayfarer hills. In typical Theme park that doesnt exist. Once you out level an area than that basically stops existing for that character. In Sandbox games like say Eve online though the whole world is your playground and Gw2 shares those elements.

The whole thing with Sandbox games is how you play the game is something you dictate rather then what the game dictates. However I dont get it, on side you claim to want a sandbox which I would imagine means you like sandbox games thus should be accustomed to playing your way rather then how a game forces you to play. Yet you then make this statement “They implement so much PvE solo”. The only solo play there is are hearts everything else is not really solo play at all. They implemented content that scales from 1 player to 10 players (every event in the world) and content that scales from 5 – 25 players (group events) and also content that scales to 100 people (world bosses)

if you’re playing solo is because you decided to play solo. Sure the game allows you to play solo if you want… thats one of the sandbox element, freedom of choice. But also rewards you if you team up. Team up with a guild member and you’ll get 5x the amount of influence you get solo for your guild. So do an event solo and you get 2 influence. Be in a group with 1 other guild member and you’ll get 10 influence. The event will also scale up with means more enemies which means more loot ergo more reward.

Right a lack of 1v1 makes a game not a real MMO. I mean a Massive Multiplayer Online game that supports 500vs500vs500 battles on 4 maps (so really at one time you can have 6000 players fighting against each other is not really a Massive Multiplayer Online Game cause you cannot have 1vs1 (though you can have that too with custom arenas but never mind….

Maybe it will fade like you’re saying who knows… Right now its probably the 2nd most profitable MMO and it hasnt even launched in the biggest MMO market yet so forgive me if I dont share your opinion on this.

If your definition of sandbox would be correct all mmo’s would be sandbox while there is a clear difference between a sandbox mmo and a non-sandbox mmo. But your example of GTA is a little outdated. When GTA was released it was the first big game of it’s genre . type.. a genre / type that did not really have a name yet. Back then people tried to define it and some people named it sandbox but that was not really accurate other people named it ‘open world’ and it even got it’s own name ‘Grand Theft Auto clone’. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto_clone I think Open World does fit the best. And yes GW2 is also an open word like GTA but they are both not sandbox while looking at what Anet wants they seem to want a sandbox game while there aren’t a sand-box game.

Thats not really an issue for me I can life with both, however I think Anet should if they really want those thinks they say convert it into sandbox or else change what they want.

But this was just to comment on the GTA – sandbox comment.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

Vayne.8563:

Galen Grey.4709:

morrolan.9608:

Devata.6589:

snip

And after getting a lot of complains about those things expansions are now back on the table. So lets hope they go for that.

The “GW2 model” at this moment resembles more a F2P model then a B2P model. Thats the problem.

Yep I agree with this as well. But it won’t happen, too many design decisions have been embedded in the game funnelling players towards the gem shop and appealing to the ‘whales’. They would have to roll back these as well as get an expansion out.

Can you people be a bit specific… What game design decisions did Gw2 take that steers it towards the F2P in a bad way?

Also @Devata you claim Gw2 when more towards f2p then to b2p… compared to what exactly? there was only one other b2p game that I am aware of and thats Gw1 which you say you never played. So which B2P game did you play prior to Gw2 that you were hoping Gw2 business model would follow exactly?

Technically at this point, TSW is also buy to play.

The thing is, after playing many F2P MMOs, Guild Wars 2 is NOTHING like them. There’s no way to compare GW 2 to SWToR or Lotro or DDO, or Perfect World…it’s just a different system.

I mean in some of those games, content needs to be purchased separately for you to even play. SWToR is almost impossible to play without paying monthly. There’s no p2w in Guild Wars 2, there’s no content locked off by the cash shop.

So I’m not sure of Devata’s point.

………

Of course you get retorted with that because it was a P2P game and like I said just because you buy the game it does not really make it a B2P game. Yeah if you would literally read the words as if it is not more as that it would.

You say the lines are not very clear because most games share similar design decisions. Well let me make it clear.. or at least as how I define it.

F2P focuses on a cash-shop and so make design decisions based on that focus. Trying to get people to buy stuff with cash. If that is locked content, B2W items, items only available for a limited time, locked levels or what more. There focus is the cash-shop and so game design is based on that because thats where they get there main income from.

Sub-based. The game is based on a subscription. Usually they will ask money for the box and expansions but thats not necessary. They might also have a cash-shop but there is no focus on it. They just put some items in there for some extra income. Game design is not based on getting people to buy something from the cash-shop.
There main income comes from the subscription.

B2P That games focuses on box-sales (online or real boxes) so the original box but also the expansions. They also might have a cash-shop with some fun or useful items in it but game-design it not based on getting people to buy something there. It’s a nice side-income. They focus on box-sales because thats where they get there main income from.

You left out one thing. Everything about subscription games that I’ve seen leads to slowing you down. Lockouts, RNG loot in dungeons so you have to run them umpteen times to get gear that you need to progress, flight paths, long amount of time crafting, long waits to level, that sort of thing.

If F2P games push you toward the cash shop, subscription games push you to play longer and slower.

In my opinion all mmo’s do that. Including GW2 and the F2P games.

Flight paths I think are more to make the game more immersive and show the size of the world. Lets face it.. teleporting all over the map is not the most immersive thing in GW2 and it makes the world much smaller.

About the rng loot in dungeons, usually you don’t ‘need’ that loot to go on, it is a nice to have, many times it are even mini’s or mounts. Sometimes the armor gives you a little bit extra power but not so much that you need it to go on. In GW2 you also need to do multiple runs to get your set from one dungeon (thats a nice to have) they just don’t have rare items drop from dungeons (I mean like the one we did have in MF and AR). In fact it could use some more rare drop from dungeons and mobs. It’s one part of the end-content many people are missing.

You get a player to join GW2 with a single purchase of $50 or whatever. You get a single player to play WoW with 5 purchases of whatever price and loads of time invested to get caught up.

I think Living Story is better than having players being forced to buy expansions (or be completely excluded from a lot of current content) is a better way to go.

I just pray that this game will eventually have Elona and Cantha involved in it. Nightfall was an amazing campaign and Elona was an amazing landscape.

Devata.6589:

Yeah and some things might be because of the cash-shop and some won’t. Fact is that if they need to get there income from a cash-shop they will try to make people buy from it in one way or the other. They simply need to. Nobody can ever proof what decision is made directly because of that and what is decision is not.. well except if somebody secretly records a meeting where the financial people talk about it and he puts it online. But you do know that if they focus on the gem-store some decisions are based on it.

As you know I blame the temporary content (being it temporary in-game stuff or items only temporary available in the gem-store), gold-driven system (thats something else as low income) and rng-boxes to that. Yeah I think the limited char slots have to do with it but giving you 5 and even giving you the option to buy more with ingame gold seems totally fair to me. No complain there.

You say “In fact most arguments I heard can be easily disproved.” but thats also not true. You mean you can always find some possible reason why they would have made a decision in a way that the gem-store was not the reason. And yeah I can also come up with some theoretical reason why they did some of those thinks I blame to the gem-store focus without it being because of the gem-store focus but that also dot not make it true.

Fact is that if a company needs to get there income from the cash-shop they will try to get people to buy from it and so make ingame decisions to try them to do so. Decisions people notice and some people may not like. B2W is the most infamous example but there are many more that are not B2W.

With a focus on expansions there is no need for a focus on the gem-store and so no need for decisions that infect the game and are there to try to get people to buy gems. So whatever those decisions will be there is no need for them anymore.

Every business wants to maximize profits thats a given but there is a different ways to go about that. When I said most arguments can be disproved as the example I’ve given its because other games that have no cash shop or selling no such items do exaclty the same thing. Example Rift when it was still P2P and had no cash shop still had you pay a ton of money to unlock more storage space. That means its a clear indication that having an MMO with limited storage space (limited as in it doesnt start immediately at maximum) is not a ploy to have you pay money its a game mechanic a lot of MMOs use. This is not a theoretical exercise. Most of the stuff people blame the cash shop for are implemented the same way in games without cash shops. Limited storage space, Limited character slots, Hard to acquire items, etc.. etc.. in short I am not saying they can be disproved because I can think of an alternative reason for them, obviously like you say you can fit everything in both categories that way. I am saying they can be disproved because games those same mechanics are found in games that have no cash shop.

Not really. As long as you have a cash shop technically its still in your best interest to push people into buying irrespective of what other revenue stream you have. That doesnt mean you’re going to. I am sure you’ll agree with me there are some cash shops that are worst then others. If you compare Atlantica Online with Swtor and Gw2 you can see different methods of pushing people into buying. In Atlantica Online you’re essentially forced to pay and a lot to be competitive. The best mercenaries can be bought for like $70 each. New ones are continually added and without them you stand no chance against someone who has a full set. On top of that there are various blessings you can get that speed up leveling a lot which is also a must to be competitive. These blessings one could claim are like a $30 a month subscription in fact.

Then you also have Swtor. They dont have anything in game thats severely affected by the cash shop but to enjoy the game properly you need to buy quite a few things.

All these games want to drive people to their cash shop, no doubt but just cuase they all drive people to their cash shop are they all equally bad?

In Atlantica online you’re not going to enjoy playing the game without spending a ton of money at high level. In Swtor you’re not going to be happy unless you spend a bit of money to get the missing functionality. In Gw2 you can play happily without ever spending a single cent.

That is not to say you’ll have everything you might desire from Gw2 without spending money but none of what there is negatively effects you experience while in those other examples there are things that negatively effect you experience. Driving people to your cash shop (which I agree everyone does and thats regardless of additional revenue streams) is different then doing everything humanly possible to drive people to your cash shop, thats what I am trying to say.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

Vayne.8563:

Galen Grey.4709:

morrolan.9608:

Devata.6589:

snip

And after getting a lot of complains about those things expansions are now back on the table. So lets hope they go for that.

The “GW2 model” at this moment resembles more a F2P model then a B2P model. Thats the problem.

Yep I agree with this as well. But it won’t happen, too many design decisions have been embedded in the game funnelling players towards the gem shop and appealing to the ‘whales’. They would have to roll back these as well as get an expansion out.

Can you people be a bit specific… What game design decisions did Gw2 take that steers it towards the F2P in a bad way?

snip

Technically at this point, TSW is also buy to play.

The thing is, after playing many F2P MMOs, Guild Wars 2 is NOTHING like them. There’s no way to compare GW 2 to SWToR or Lotro or DDO, or Perfect World…it’s just a different system.

I mean in some of those games, content needs to be purchased separately for you to even play. SWToR is almost impossible to play without paying monthly. There’s no p2w in Guild Wars 2, there’s no content locked off by the cash shop.

So I’m not sure of Devata’s point.

………

Of course you get retorted with that because it was a P2P game and like I said just because you buy the game it does not really make it a B2P game. Yeah if you would literally read the words as if it is not more as that it would.

You say the lines are not very clear because most games share similar design decisions. Well let me make it clear.. or at least as how I define it.

F2P focuses on a cash-shop and so make design decisions based on that focus. Trying to get people to buy stuff with cash. If that is locked content, B2W items, items only available for a limited time, locked levels or what more. There focus is the cash-shop and so game design is based on that because thats where they get there main income from.

Sub-based. The game is based on a subscription. Usually they will ask money for the box and expansions but thats not necessary. They might also have a cash-shop but there is no focus on it. They just put some items in there for some extra income. Game design is not based on getting people to buy something from the cash-shop.
There main income comes from the subscription.

B2P That games focuses on box-sales (online or real boxes) so the original box but also the expansions. They also might have a cash-shop with some fun or useful items in it but game-design it not based on getting people to buy something there. It’s a nice side-income. They focus on box-sales because thats where they get there main income from.

You left out one thing. Everything about subscription games that I’ve seen leads to slowing you down. Lockouts, RNG loot in dungeons so you have to run them umpteen times to get gear that you need to progress, flight paths, long amount of time crafting, long waits to level, that sort of thing.

If F2P games push you toward the cash shop, subscription games push you to play longer and slower.

In my opinion all mmo’s do that. Including GW2 and the F2P games.

Flight paths I think are more to make the game more immersive and show the size of the world. Lets face it.. teleporting all over the map is not the most immersive thing in GW2 and it makes the world much smaller.

About the rng loot in dungeons, usually you don’t ‘need’ that loot to go on, it is a nice to have, many times it are even mini’s or mounts. Sometimes the armor gives you a little bit extra power but not so much that you need it to go on. In GW2 you also need to do multiple runs to get your set from one dungeon (thats a nice to have) they just don’t have rare items drop from dungeons (I mean like the one we did have in MF and AR). In fact it could use some more rare drop from dungeons and mobs. It’s one part of the end-content many people are missing.

I don’t buy it. You can’t compare flight paths with map travel for speed. In WoW when you craft 100 of something it takes six years. You might want to go make a snack. In Guild Wars 2, when you craft multiples of something, it speeds up. Guild Wars 2 is particularly fast to get to max level and max gear, except for ascended trinkets, but that doesn’t lock you out of content. That’s what all the subscription games tend to do. It’s what the gear treadmill is all about.

People complain about the dailies in this game…I guess they never saw the WoW dailies. I honestly don’t see how you can compare.

Raven Paradox.1860:

You get a player to join GW2 with a single purchase of $50 or whatever. You get a single player to play WoW with 5 purchases of whatever price and loads of time invested to get caught up.

I think Living Story is better than having players being forced to buy expansions (or be completely excluded from a lot of current content) is a better way to go.

I just pray that this game will eventually have Elona and Cantha involved in it. Nightfall was an amazing campaign and Elona was an amazing landscape.

If you look at it that way it would even be better to get people to play on a F2P game with no cast to start at all.

It simply depends on how the person likes to pay. Some prefer more in one go and then have a good quality.

Other don’t mind if a product is trying to keep you buying more but the product itself is cheap / free.

And then there are the people who prefer to pay on a monthly base eventually paying more but usually less in the beginning and also getting a good quality.

So that depends on the person and what they are looking for but in your example those people would more likely go for a F2P game without any one-time payment.

Raven Paradox.1860:

I just pray that this game will eventually have Elona and Cantha involved in it. Nightfall was an amazing campaign and Elona was an amazing landscape.

1. The Jade Sea.
2. Taking a break in Vabbi.

To paraphrase the wise and witty Jethro Bodine, Double Naught Spy, “Bring on them expansions!”

Devata.6589:

If your definition of sandbox would be correct all mmo’s would be sandbox while there is a clear difference between a sandbox mmo and a non-sandbox mmo. But your example of GTA is a little outdated. When GTA was released it was the first big game of it’s genre . type.. a genre / type that did not really have a name yet. Back then people tried to define it and some people named it sandbox but that was not really accurate other people named it ‘open world’ and it even got it’s own name ‘Grand Theft Auto clone’. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto_clone I think Open World does fit the best. And yes GW2 is also an open word like GTA but they are both not sandbox while looking at what Anet wants they seem to want a sandbox game while there aren’t a sand-box game.

Thats not really an issue for me I can life with both, however I think Anet should if they really want those thinks they say convert it into sandbox or else change what they want.

But this was just to comment on the GTA – sandbox comment.

Just to clarify I didnt say Gw2 is a sandbox I said it has sandbox elements and no I disagree that based on my description all MMOs are sandboxes. The key factor I mentioned is you have to be free to play the way you want and where you want. In WoW at max level I cant decide to go play in Elwynn Forest because there will be no quests for me to do and i get no reward / progression. If I am max level I am forced to play max level content. In those theme parks I am essentially guided on a path through content invalidation and gear gating. Thats different then what you’ll find in Gw2.
Think of it this way if you had to get a random player in WoW as they play you’ll see them following a vertical path (were low level content is at the bottom and high level content is at the top) In Gw2 you’ll see them all over the place.

As for games like GTA and Skyrim its more or less the same thing. there isnt a clear delineation of areas / level and you’re forced of doing missions / quests in those areas while at that level. You’re free to go any place on the map and play there. Thats what classifies them as sandboxes really.

Anyhow how does Arenanet seem to want a sandbox game? we dont even have housing yet which would probably the first thing anyone should implement on the road to a real sandbox game!

Devata.6589:

In my opinion all mmo’s do that. Including GW2 and the F2P games.

Flight paths I think are more to make the game more immersive and show the size of the world. Lets face it.. teleporting all over the map is not the most immersive thing in GW2 and it makes the world much smaller.

About the rng loot in dungeons, usually you don’t ‘need’ that loot to go on, it is a nice to have, many times it are even mini’s or mounts. Sometimes the armor gives you a little bit extra power but not so much that you need it to go on. In GW2 you also need to do multiple runs to get your set from one dungeon (thats a nice to have) they just don’t have rare items drop from dungeons (I mean like the one we did have in MF and AR). In fact it could use some more rare drop from dungeons and mobs. It’s one part of the end-content many people are missing.

This is what I dont get, everyone dislikes Teleporting but then they do it all the time. Its rare when I teleport even once in a typical game session. why is it so difficult to walk to where you want to go? its such a beautiful world its really a joy doing thakittens not that long to get anywhere you want either 3 zones and you can get to any point in the world. Why do people have to be forced in something in order for them to enjoy it.

I think we need a 3rd candidate for the upcoming election and that candidate should promise to disable way points for a month so maybe people will realise walking around isnt so bad!

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

….

…….

Not really. As long as you have a cash shop technically its still in your best interest to push people into buying irrespective of what other revenue stream you have. That doesnt mean you’re going to. I am sure you’ll agree with me there are some cash shops that are worst then others. If you compare Atlantica Online with Swtor and Gw2 you can see different methods of pushing people into buying. In Atlantica Online you’re essentially forced to pay and a lot to be competitive. The best mercenaries can be bought for like $70 each. New ones are continually added and without them you stand no chance against someone who has a full set. On top of that there are various blessings you can get that speed up leveling a lot which is also a must to be competitive. These blessings one could claim are like a $30 a month subscription in fact.

Then you also have Swtor. They dont have anything in game thats severely affected by the cash shop but to enjoy the game properly you need to buy quite a few things.

All these games want to drive people to their cash shop, no doubt but just cuase they all drive people to their cash shop are they all equally bad?

In Atlantica online you’re not going to enjoy playing the game without spending a ton of money at high level. In Swtor you’re not going to be happy unless you spend a bit of money to get the missing functionality. In Gw2 you can play happily without ever spending a single cent.

That is not to say you’ll have everything you might desire from Gw2 without spending money but none of what there is negatively effects you experience while in those other examples there are things that negatively effect you experience. Driving people to your cash shop (which I agree everyone does and thats regardless of additional revenue streams) is different then doing everything humanly possible to drive people to your cash shop, thats what I am trying to say.

I don’t know how Rift did it but the fact that another company does something wrong does not make it a good excuse for you to do the same. Personally I think any P2P mmo would fail (the payment method) when released now in the near future or in the last years but Rift did fail with there P2P so it does not look like a good example. We try to find what is good, not what is bad. Maybe the financial people behind Rift tried to squeeze money out of there customers in any possible way. That did work for some time but now they are left with game where many people already left. So they did make some fast money but did lose potential income on the long run. Same can happen to GW2 if they do it wrong.

“As long as you have a cash shop technically its still in your best interest to push people into buying irrespective of what other revenue stream you have.” But thats not true.. yes in the short run but in the long run it might be very bad. Then again, thats exactly where many managers make the mistakes.. The current financial crisis can be blamed for a big part on managers and politicians focusing on the short run in staid of the long run effects of there decisions. So it’s a comment mistake by people who should know better bus obvious don’t. That does not yet make it right.

“I am sure you’ll agree with me there are some cash shops that are worst then others.”
Yeah I am pretty sure I even said that in the post you are commenting on. And GW2 still does not have the worst by far.. But don’t focus on ‘well it’s not the worst’ focus on ‘well it’s not yet the best’.

“In Gw2 you can play happily without ever spending a single cent.` well thats a matter of opinion. I get very frustrated by all the temporary content. When they want my money give me an expansion and I give them my money and I will even go for the CE. If they put a nice item in the game leave it there so I can get it whenever I want to go for it. Making it temporary frustrates me and takes part of the fun away.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

Vayne.8563:

Galen Grey.4709:

morrolan.9608:

Devata.6589:

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Sub-based. The game is based on a subscription. Usually they will ask money for the box and expansions but thats not necessary. They might also have a cash-shop but there is no focus on it. They just put some items in there for some extra income. Game design is not based on getting people to buy something from the cash-shop.
There main income comes from the subscription.

B2P That games focuses on box-sales (online or real boxes) so the original box but also the expansions. They also might have a cash-shop with some fun or useful items in it but game-design it not based on getting people to buy something there. It’s a nice side-income. They focus on box-sales because thats where they get there main income from.

You left out one thing. Everything about subscription games that I’ve seen leads to slowing you down. Lockouts, RNG loot in dungeons so you have to run them umpteen times to get gear that you need to progress, flight paths, long amount of time crafting, long waits to level, that sort of thing.

If F2P games push you toward the cash shop, subscription games push you to play longer and slower.

In my opinion all mmo’s do that. Including GW2 and the F2P games.

Flight paths I think are more to make the game more immersive and show the size of the world. Lets face it.. teleporting all over the map is not the most immersive thing in GW2 and it makes the world much smaller.

About the rng loot in dungeons, usually you don’t ‘need’ that loot to go on, it is a nice to have, many times it are even mini’s or mounts. Sometimes the armor gives you a little bit extra power but not so much that you need it to go on. In GW2 you also need to do multiple runs to get your set from one dungeon (thats a nice to have) they just don’t have rare items drop from dungeons (I mean like the one we did have in MF and AR). In fact it could use some more rare drop from dungeons and mobs. It’s one part of the end-content many people are missing.

I don’t buy it. You can’t compare flight paths with map travel for speed. In WoW when you craft 100 of something it takes six years. You might want to go make a snack. In Guild Wars 2, when you craft multiples of something, it speeds up. Guild Wars 2 is particularly fast to get to max level and max gear, except for ascended trinkets, but that doesn’t lock you out of content. That’s what all the subscription games tend to do. It’s what the gear treadmill is all about.

People complain about the dailies in this game…I guess they never saw the WoW dailies. I honestly don’t see how you can compare.

The craft time in WoW is just based on 1 item takes x time. Don’t tell me they just do that so it takes you longer. GW2 was very smart and reduces that with every try. It’s simply not something Blizzard did think of and I would not be surprised if they would introduce that in a future patch.

“You can’t compare flight paths with map travel for speed.” Not sure what you want to say with this. You did say flight paths where there so everything would take you longer didn’t you? I think they are there because it makes more sense as teleporting all over the map (more immersive) and so you get the feeling of a big world.

“Guild Wars 2 is particularly fast to get to max level and max gear” that part is true however personally I think the leveling is a little boring for alts. Kill x attacking centaur to scare them away, collect x that, find x samples. In other games many of the quest where similar but you could also go for the quest that had more of a story and usually they even gave you more xp. To make the leveling more fun in GW2 that would not be a bad addition. But indeed purely looking at the time it takes less time to get to 80 and some exotic lvl 80 gear (at least for the first char, alt chars tent to go faster then the first char in other MMO’s while in GW2 they all have the same speed).

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

If your definition of sandbox would be correct all mmo’s would be sandbox while there is a clear difference between a sandbox mmo and a non-sandbox mmo. But your example of GTA is a little outdated. When GTA was released it was the first big game of it’s genre . type.. a genre / type that did not really have a name yet. Back then people tried to define it and some people named it sandbox but that was not really accurate other people named it ‘open world’ and it even got it’s own name ‘Grand Theft Auto clone’. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto_clone I think Open World does fit the best. And yes GW2 is also an open word like GTA but they are both not sandbox while looking at what Anet wants they seem to want a sandbox game while there aren’t a sand-box game.

Thats not really an issue for me I can life with both, however I think Anet should if they really want those thinks they say convert it into sandbox or else change what they want.

But this was just to comment on the GTA – sandbox comment.

Just to clarify I didnt say Gw2 is a sandbox I said it has sandbox elements and no I disagree that based on my description all MMOs are sandboxes. The key factor I mentioned is you have to be free to play the way you want and where you want. In WoW at max level I cant decide to go play in Elwynn Forest because there will be no quests for me to do and i get no reward / progression. If I am max level I am forced to play max level content. In those theme parks I am essentially guided on a path through content invalidation and gear gating. Thats different then what you’ll find in Gw2.
Think of it this way if you had to get a random player in WoW as they play you’ll see them following a vertical path (were low level content is at the bottom and high level content is at the top) In Gw2 you’ll see them all over the place.

As for games like GTA and Skyrim its more or less the same thing. there isnt a clear delineation of areas / level and you’re forced of doing missions / quests in those areas while at that level. You’re free to go any place on the map and play there. Thats what classifies them as sandboxes really.

Anyhow how does Arenanet seem to want a sandbox game? we dont even have housing yet which would probably the first thing anyone should implement on the road to a real sandbox game!

In WoW there are multiple area’s you can level but indeed area’s are bound to a level.. just as in GW2. GW2 makes it a little more rewarding to come back but it’s not really end-content and in WoW some high level quest also lead you back to low level area’s.

The big difference is if players change the world. Like in a sandbox where you can dig a whole or build a castle.. thats why they name it sandbox. WoW does not give that option and GW2 does not give you that option. The fact that you pretty much pick your own route makes it open world and both WoW and GW2 have that.

“how does Arenanet seem to want a sandbox game?” with the thinks they say. Even before release they said they wanted to give players an impact on the world. We did see that with scaring centaurs away and so a village would be saved. But the effect was very small because a few min later they would attack again. Now they talk about “the living world” and the how people effect it.

In the last interview from Colin he said more of the same. We want players to have an impact on the world. I will literally quote him “… living world and what that means to us, and also what that means in the future for our game. And I think that this release (the next one) is starting to give an idea to where we wanna take the living world content in the future. We really wanna make sure that this stuff has a more permanent impact on the world that it really feels like it makes a difference, that the gameplay players do really changes the content they experience”. And there are more comments Anet made about how they want players to effect the world. Thats something else as choosing they path. Changing the world is more sandbox. I don’t think thats bad, it can be really good but at this moment GW2 is not a sandbox.

What i want to see are new maps rolling out with this new living story content- for instance, Aetherblades could of had a whole new map for themselves, their hideout, their sanctuary could have been new sections accessible during the intro launch of that release and at the tail end the entire new map could have opened up- more content and lore and things to explore. I’d like to see this considered for future living story ideas. Like with past Living Stories “Flame and Frost” I thought they were opening new map sections in the “Far shiver peaks+ Blood legion homelands” region. It would have been a good fit.

Continuing Living Story is awesome, really digging the upcoming additions…but we needs expansions to unlock more of that yummy map! So….

Devata.6589:

I don’t know how Rift did it but the fact that another company does something wrong does not make it a good excuse for you to do the same.
snip..

You make a very important point… Is having you start with a reduced amount of the maximum storage you can have and have you work for it wrong?

At the end of the day every game is a time sink, its meant to keep you busy and have you enjoy your time while you’re being kept busy. A game is balanced between effort and reward. Every “Chore” I have to make in the game is obviously Artificial but again is it really wrong? There is a whole spectrum, if my target is to get Best in slot gear… if that translates to at least a couple of years to get to max level and then another year of running the same raid … that would be bad for most people, few would enjoy that experiance. If you had a game were you log in, you kill 1 mob which drops every possible item you could get in that game too. Would that be good ? Nope it would be worst then the first example because hopefully the fictious really grindy game would have kept me happy for a couple of months until it started to feel like I was not getting anywhere.

So focusing on our Storage space issue… As we said a game is about having you trade in time for enjoyement and it does that by having you do a variety of things one of which is expanding your Inventory. Technically thats not any different from leveling your crafting, leveling up, gearing up, housing and any other game mechanic. Its just another goal to work with because the more varied stuff you have the less daunting stuff will be.

Lets thinking about that, If a game has leveling up, crafting, gearing up, storage expansion and housing and for the sake of argument there is 100 hrs of content each then that game can potentially keep you busy for 500 hrs. 100 hrs leveling up doesnt feel too bad (infact its a bit on the short side) but if it only had leveling up to keep you busy for 500hrs it would need to set the leveling experiance to take 500hrs to achieve and that would most likely feel worst then the game who has you spend 100 hrs doing 1 thing then 100 doing another etc…

So again can we really state that starting out with a limited storage space is a bad thing? Also its not just rift by the way… Except for Eve Online I cant think of any game that has you start with maximum storage space. In fact even non multiple player games like Skyrim have you expand your storage gradually.

Why would you say that if a game has a cash shop and a subscription they dont have to push the cash shop as well? Did they put in the cash shop as a sort of charity exercise? no they made it to make more money and for no other reason. Everyone wants to maximize profits. Just look at Blizzards balance sheet. they have 8m subscribers. They issue an expansion every 1.5 years give or take that means from just box sales they make 320m per year… they spend 220m on their entire Online games business (not just WoW) so technically they dont even need to charge a subscription to make a healthy profit. Yet not only the charge a full subscription but they have a cashshop thats gonna get expanded. They dont have to but hey there is money there so why not?

You’re right there… I agree they shouldnt strive to not be the worst, they should strive to be the best… Granted! I dont know if they’re the best or not, but I think they’re pretty close to the top. Which games have a better cash shop in your opinion? They allow you to earn many of the new items they put from sale in game (the weapon skins). For the rest you can even use in game money to acquire them. They sell them directly to you rather then other games like eden eternal where the stuff they put in the cash shop can be bought by players who then resell it for their chosen in game price… In games like that most of that stuff is unaffordable I assure you.

Yes no doubt that whether you can live happily playing the game without spending a cent in the cash shop is a matter of opinion. I can tell you that I bought 5 things off the cash shop. The halloween costume, 2 character slots, the axe and the pickaxe. Except for the halloween costume I could have bought the rest using in game money but in each case I used real money (well not the axe that I bought through in game money to be honest) simply because I wanted to support the game not because I had no other choice and that includes the Halloween costume. Of course there are people who claim have spend $500 in 1 month trying to get some of the skins, I am sure those people had a different experience with the cash shop then I did but then that brings us to another issue. lack of self control. Is it really fair to blame a game if a person finds it hard to cope with not being able to acquire a specific item? After all in which game can you really have everything?

Devata.6589:

The craft time in WoW is just based on 1 item takes x time. Don’t tell me they just do that so it takes you longer. GW2 was very smart and reduces that with every try. It’s simply not something Blizzard did think of and I would not be surprised if they would introduce that in a future patch.

“You can’t compare flight paths with map travel for speed.” Not sure what you want to say with this. You did say flight paths where there so everything would take you longer didn’t you? I think they are there because it makes more sense as teleporting all over the map (more immersive) and so you get the feeling of a big world.

“Guild Wars 2 is particularly fast to get to max level and max gear” that part is true however personally I think the leveling is a little boring for alts. Kill x attacking centaur to scare them away, collect x that, find x samples. In other games many of the quest where similar but you could also go for the quest that had more of a story and usually they even gave you more xp. To make the leveling more fun in GW2 that would not be a bad addition. But indeed purely looking at the time it takes less time to get to 80 and some exotic lvl 80 gear (at least for the first char, alt chars tent to go faster then the first char in other MMO’s while in GW2 they all have the same speed).

This goes back to what I said in my previous post, at the end of the day the time it takes to craft an item is all fake. it takes a few ms for the game to create your item, its just posting an entry in a database. If you craft 1 or craft a 100000 items of the same type I assure you technically server side it takes precisely the same amount of time. Even the time it takes to craft stuff in Gw2 is artificially inflated. Its not that WoW didnt think of it, its actually an intended time sink.

Every quest in every game boils down to kill x of something, interact with object/personal y or move to location z. What makes them different as you say is the story. But Dynamic Events have that. Most them are nearly a small movie if you follow the whole chain. Also the fact that you just need 17 dynamic events to level up no matter what level you are is great. I dont know which MMOs you played but some have you doing 100s of quests to lvl up and in most cases creativity really takes a nose dive. first you’re given a generic reason to go kill X of Y you come back and they give you another generic reason to go kill another X of Y (y is the same create you just killed) and you want to strangle the NPC right there for not telling you to collect the teeth off the wolves last time when he had sent you to collect their hides.

In Gw2 while tasks might be very similar at their core there is a compelling story to you see unfolding right in front of your eyes. For me thats the best selling point of this game.

Galen Grey.4709:

For starter the game was never promised as a sandbox at all. It was promised as theme park thats has sandbox elements. Personally I feel thats exactly what they delivered.

For starters sandbox are not about changing the world at all. For example GTA is considered a sandbox and you dont change anything in the world there. The actual difference between theme park and sandbox is theme park provide a clear path you have to follow.

Man, you are totally wrong. GTA never been a sandbox, it’s open world, which is something different. Most MMOs now are open world, but that doesn’t make them sandbox. Sandbox is a game in which you change the things when you play, not only personal story but the whole game. Eve is a sandbox, Minecraft is a sandbox, Archeage and Black Desert are games with many sandbox elements, Lineage 2 is game with some sandbox elements, at other site WoW is a themepark, and for sure GW2 is clean themepark. But like Anets show us banners with mounted dolyaks, which are only “art”, they are talking all the time about players who are changing the game world. The question is – do Anets believe in their own words /which shows they are incompetent/ or all is just advertisement /which makes them liars/. Yes, I’m a little bit angry, cause they sold me themepark game in a sandbox pack.

Devata.6589:

In WoW there are multiple area’s you can level but indeed area’s are bound to a level.. just as in GW2. GW2 makes it a little more rewarding to come back but it’s not really end-content and in WoW some high level quest also lead you back to low level area’s.

The big difference is if players change the world. Like in a sandbox where you can dig a whole or build a castle.. thats why they name it sandbox. WoW does not give that option and GW2 does not give you that option. The fact that you pretty much pick your own route makes it open world and both WoW and GW2 have that.

Thats the brilliant part though, there is no end game content so that all the world remains compelling. On my server the starter areas are way more populated then level 80 zones for example. Risk vs Reward starter areas arent that bad. you can finish a dynamic event there in a fraction of the time it takes to finish an event in a lvl 80 area and you’re just paid 30% less.

I disagree, well to a degree.. obviously change is a big thing but then again that was in Gw1 too and they never even mentioned as much as a hint of sandbox in there. Thats a hallmark of the series so to speak where as in other MMOs an NPC tells you to save his town from war by reducing the enemy army size and then when you go back after doing as ask you’re thanked for saving them as you look back in the direction of the enemy army and you see them no smaller then before you killed the first soldier. In Gw1 and Gw2 that change actually happens. In Gw1 it would persist so long as you remained in the zone and reset when you get out. In Gw2 it persist until another event cycles to try to change the state back. Obviously its impossible to have stuff happen only once in a game with millions of players who all need something to do. So now they’re trying to create change by creating situations that then are removed once resolved. Feels better but then there is the issue of the temporary content. Hopefully they’ll find a better balance to make everyone happy.

Its more then just open world. Open world means you can go where ever you go but that alone isnt a sandbox trait. A sandbox trait is you can also play where you go. In WoW you can go where you want sure but you can only play in your designated area. Another trait of sandbox related to this is you can choose what content to play. Again in WoW you cannot you can only play the quests of your own level you cannot choose which ever quest you want to play, in Gw2 you can. Yet another trait is you make up yourself what you want to do. In WoW if you want to level up thats questing or killing. In Gw2 to a degree you’re free not because you can create what you want to do you cannot but rather because the game provides a lot of options. In Gw2 you dont level just by killing and question but also by exploring, crafting, gathering, doing jumping puzzles, PvP, WvW etc.. Its really much more then open world. And again keep in mind we’re not saying Gw2 is a sandbox it isnt, just that it shares traits with a sandbox traits that in games like WoW they’re just missing.

Well we’re going to have the first example of how players can change the world next tuesday were we get to vote for those two candidates and whoever wins will dictate what bonuses will get for a month but more importantly what historical research will be conducted in the mists. Again it has a small sandboxy feel but I wouldnt say anyone including arenanet would claim thats a full fledge sandbox.

Devata.6589:

Ronah.2869:

Ikcen.7518:

GW2 is doomed to failure when games as Archeage and Black desert come online. This game has too much imbalances, bugs, and fundamental problems to be competitive to real mmos. So I’m not surprised it will have no expansions. GW2 is good for losing time, nothing more. Sad that other companies decided to follow GW2 model. I’m talking about Neverwinter and Elder Scrolls. These two, like GW2, are online not mmo games – some new genre

Archage and Black Desert? LOL, Still fanboys of kill 10/10 MMOs with loot steal and quest grief-ing? Or warrior type girls fighting monsters wearing high heals shoes?
No wonder GW2 is still a twilight zone for you.

Lol, no he is more a fanboy of the Smash 150 Pinatas and eat 250 Zhaitaffy or to give 15 cows foot or to give 20 plants water or to collect 30 samples of something and warrior type (almost naked) girls fighting monsters wearing pinks quaggan backpacks.

Really don’t act like if GW2 is so different on those aspects. The hearth and event type of quest usually make them even more superficial where some traditional quest could give a more detailed story and let you really get to know some of the NPC’s. I would welcome some traditional quest in an example.. of course if they are more of a story then the examples you gave. (To bring is back to the subject of the the thread)

You wanna make me believe you actually read those quest tests other then the quest tracker? LOL, Nice try tho.

Ikcen.7518:

Galen Grey.4709:

For starter the game was never promised as a sandbox at all. It was promised as theme park thats has sandbox elements. Personally I feel thats exactly what they delivered.

For starters sandbox are not about changing the world at all. For example GTA is considered a sandbox and you dont change anything in the world there. The actual difference between theme park and sandbox is theme park provide a clear path you have to follow.

Man, you are totally wrong. GTA never been a sandbox, it’s open world, which is something different. Most MMOs now are open world, but that doesn’t make them sandbox. Sandbox is a game in which you change the things when you play, not only personal story but the whole game. Eve is a sandbox, Minecraft is a sandbox, Archeage and Black Desert are games with many sandbox elements, Lineage 2 is game with some sandbox elements, at other site WoW is a themepark, and for sure GW2 is clean themepark. But like Anets show us banners with mounted dolyaks, which are only “art”, they are talking all the time about players who are changing the game world. The question is – do Anets believe in their own words /which shows they are incompetent/ or all is just advertisement /which makes them liars/. Yes, I’m a little bit angry, cause they sold me themepark game in a sandbox pack.

I can assure you I am not the one who considers GTA a sandbox: here are 5 big publications that also consider it a sandbox:

http://www.shacknews.com/article/79012/grand-theft-auto-dna-the-art-of-sandbox-gaming

http://www.qj.net/qjnet/playstation-3/grand-theft-auto-4-redefining-the-sandbox-game.html

http://www.psu.com/Riccitiello--GTA-IV-is-gamings-Best-Picture--a003368-p0.php —> “Riccitiello feels that the highly anticipated sandbox title will back up his assertion that videogames will soon be viewed in the same entertainment capacity as the movie industries biggest films.”

http://www.giantbomb.com/grand-theft-auto/3025-6/ —> “It pushed the medium to new graphical and technical heights, massively popularized its style of open-ended sandbox gameplay”

http://www.pcworld.com/article/145116/article.html —> “series uses its astonishing $100 million budget so effectively, in fact, that it’s difficult to imagine this deluxe sandbox and crime spree simulator being a single penny better.”

but perhpas more importantly do rockstar feel GTA is a sandbox game… asnwer seems yes:
http://support.rockstargames.com/entries/20058817-Sandbox-Modes-and-Free-Roam-in-L-A-Noire —> " Is L.A. Noire a sandbox game like GTA IV? "

Simply speaking every sandbox game is open world but not every open world is a sandbox game. It depends how you handle your open world. If you’ve got an open world but are restricted where you can play in that open world because of level, story gate or whatever then thats not a sandbox. If you’re free to play anywhere in the open world then thats a sandbox. There is more to sandbox then just building.

For example you claim Black desert is a sandbox but in black desert you cant build anything on the open world as far as i know, the housing in that game is just predefined houses in towns that you can bid for. the sandbox elements thakittens being marked off are the life like open world where npcs go about their own daily lives. An extensive trading system. And House customization.

Guess which game has something similar to an life like open world where npc go on with their daily lives? Ergo if black desert is a sandbox Gw2 shares at least one characteristic with it hence that alone would make the statement that Gw2 has some sandbox elements true!

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

I don’t know how Rift did it but the fact that another company does something wrong does not make it a good excuse for you to do the same.
snip..

…

Rift did something wrong else they would not have lost a big part of there player base resulting in them having to transfer to a new payment-method. Thats what I was referring to.

I also did not say that the fact that stuff takes time is a bad thing. Vayne said that thats a big part of sub-based games and I only reacted on it saying that most mmo’s have things that take a lot of time and that in my opinion the example of crafting and flight paths where not so great as I don’t think they are in WoW just to take away time. I did not say that was a bad thing.

Anyway, for me temporary content and a gold-driven system is a bad thing and seeing the many reactions about it there are many people who feel the same. Luckily Anet already said they would in the future make the story temporary but the additions to the game permanent so if they keep there word and we don’t see any more temporary items / rewards / dungeons and other additions to the game while only the story is temporary I am fine with that. Still I do hope they will also go for expansions because if they don’t we are most likely see other techniques to try and get people to buy gems or they will simply not keep there promise. The next patch is in 5 days so we will see.

I also did not say anything negative about the limited storage space so you also don’t have to convince me thats not bad. They had that already at the release of the game and I was fine with that. You can trade gold for gems so you can buy it with money or with gems. No pressure no problem, just a nice extra for Anet if you would pay it with cakittenhink part of your reaction is more for Vayne then it is for me?

“Why would you say that if a game has a cash shop and a subscription they don’t have to push the cash shop as well?” Because they don’t. They can make there money on the subscription. I don’t say they won’t but I also don’t say they make the correct decisions. But indeed they don’t have to. One focus is enough, multiple will most likely alienate the player-base from you because they feel being milked for money. Same as changing from one to another. The player-base partly selected a game because of the payment-model and especially for GW2 this is very true. And you don’t maximize your profit be alienating your player-base. So far the cash-shop in WoW has never been a real issue (no pressure to buy anything) and it’s true that they want to expand it but we don’t know yet how that will work out so to early to take it as an example. It might backfire on them but if any game can get away with more then normal then it is WoW.

Like I said I think Raiderz has a similar system. I preferred GW2 cash-shop system better in the beginning of the game when there was no pressure to buy anything from it. About the lack of self control. The pressure I talked about will not work on anybody for example it did not work for me. The other way around. I was planning on buying gems for some extra char-slots but that was around the same time as we started seeing more temporary content and RNG-boxes making me decide that Anet would only get more money from me with expansions. But no matter if some people have the self-control and other don’t, the pressure is there for all.

If the GW2 will sold on the asiatic market we will get the new big expansion from AN, ordered by the NCsoft. Otherwise we will not see any new elder dragon in Gw2 from NCsoft/AN.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

The craft time in WoW is just based on 1 item takes x time. Don’t tell me they just do that so it takes you longer. GW2 was very smart and reduces that with every try. It’s simply not something Blizzard did think of and I would not be surprised if they would introduce that in a future patch.

“You can’t compare flight paths with map travel for speed.” Not sure what you want to say with this. You did say flight paths where there so everything would take you longer didn’t you? I think they are there because it makes more sense as teleporting all over the map (more immersive) and so you get the feeling of a big world.

“Guild Wars 2 is particularly fast to get to max level and max gear” that part is true however personally I think the leveling is a little boring for alts. Kill x attacking centaur to scare them away, collect x that, find x samples. In other games many of the quest where similar but you could also go for the quest that had more of a story and usually they even gave you more xp. To make the leveling more fun in GW2 that would not be a bad addition. But indeed purely looking at the time it takes less time to get to 80 and some exotic lvl 80 gear (at least for the first char, alt chars tent to go faster then the first char in other MMO’s while in GW2 they all have the same speed).

This goes back to what I said in my previous post, at the end of the day the time it takes to craft an item is all fake. it takes a few ms for the game to create your item, its just posting an entry in a database. If you craft 1 or craft a 100000 items of the same type I assure you technically server side it takes precisely the same amount of time. Even the time it takes to craft stuff in Gw2 is artificially inflated. Its not that WoW didnt think of it, its actually an intended time sink.

Every quest in every game boils down to kill x of something, interact with object/personal y or move to location z. What makes them different as you say is the story. But Dynamic Events have that. Most them are nearly a small movie if you follow the whole chain. Also the fact that you just need 17 dynamic events to level up no matter what level you are is great. I dont know which MMOs you played but some have you doing 100s of quests to lvl up and in most cases creativity really takes a nose dive. first you’re given a generic reason to go kill X of Y you come back and they give you another generic reason to go kill another X of Y (y is the same create you just killed) and you want to strangle the NPC right there for not telling you to collect the teeth off the wolves last time when he had sent you to collect their hides.

In Gw2 while tasks might be very similar at their core there is a compelling story to you see unfolding right in front of your eyes. For me thats the best selling point of this game.

Of course you can easily change it and of course it’s an of course it is an ‘intended time sink’ but I don’t beleave it’s that way it WoW just to take take. It’s that way because it makes sense that if you ‘create’ something it takes time. And if you make 100 of it it takes 100 times that time. Thats why it is in WoW the way it is, not because they want to take time away, that I do not believe. Sure they can also take away the animation and the need for a crafting-station and just let you combine stuff and then you get when you need immediately but in a way they try to make it more like you are really crafting something thats why they do it that way, not to take away time.

To me the story’s are indeed a little shallow. It’s true that here you indeed see something while in many other game you don’t but in the end still nothing really changes in a way it might even change more with traditional quest. If you would speak to an NPC you helped he will give you an answer as how happy is you helped him while in GW2 if you scared away the centaurs 5 minutes later they are attacking again. No I don’t blame that for this. It;s just hard to make this any better. The animation you see is indeed great but I also don’t really have a solution to really have an lasting infect however I think a combination of the dynamic events and traditional quest would not be bad at all.

I did some WoW (not a lot as I don’t go for monthly sub) and there are also some other quest like one where you need to take care of a bird and bring it to some other guy, meanwhile you still had that bird flying with you. A game with really good quest was Chronicles of spellborn. Of course there you also find the kill x this and collect x that but it also had some real nice story quest.

Ronah.2869:

Devata.6589:

Ronah.2869:

Ikcen.7518:

GW2 is doomed to failure when games as Archeage and Black desert come online. This game has too much imbalances, bugs, and fundamental problems to be competitive to real mmos. So I’m not surprised it will have no expansions. GW2 is good for losing time, nothing more. Sad that other companies decided to follow GW2 model. I’m talking about Neverwinter and Elder Scrolls. These two, like GW2, are online not mmo games – some new genre

Archage and Black Desert? LOL, Still fanboys of kill 10/10 MMOs with loot steal and quest grief-ing? Or warrior type girls fighting monsters wearing high heals shoes?
No wonder GW2 is still a twilight zone for you.

Lol, no he is more a fanboy of the Smash 150 Pinatas and eat 250 Zhaitaffy or to give 15 cows foot or to give 20 plants water or to collect 30 samples of something and warrior type (almost naked) girls fighting monsters wearing pinks quaggan backpacks.

Really don’t act like if GW2 is so different on those aspects. The hearth and event type of quest usually make them even more superficial where some traditional quest could give a more detailed story and let you really get to know some of the NPC’s. I would welcome some traditional quest in an example.. of course if they are more of a story then the examples you gave. (To bring is back to the subject of the the thread)

You wanna make me believe you actually read those quest tests other then the quest tracker? LOL, Nice try tho.

Sometimes I do sometimes I don’t. Totally depends on the quest and that I notice fast enough. Usually I don’t read them when taking them because like I said 90% are kill x this or kill x that. So I simply collect some and then I notice fast enough what quest are worth reading and what are not. But I would find an house in the middle of nowhere with one NPC having a quest I usually do read it immediate because I wonder what he is doing there. The quest usually give me an answer to that and they also tent to have more interesting quest. In the CoS example I said you where pretty much forced to read them.

Galen Grey.4709:

Ikcen.7518:

Galen Grey.4709:

For starter the game was never promised as a sandbox at all. It was promised as theme park thats has sandbox elements. Personally I feel thats exactly what they delivered.

For starters sandbox are not about changing the world at all. For example GTA is considered a sandbox and you dont change anything in the world there. The actual difference between theme park and sandbox is theme park provide a clear path you have to follow.

Man, you are totally wrong. GTA never been a sandbox, it’s open world, which is something different. Most MMOs now are open world, but that doesn’t make them sandbox. Sandbox is a game in which you change the things when you play, not only personal story but the whole game. Eve is a sandbox, Minecraft is a sandbox, Archeage and Black Desert are games with many sandbox elements, Lineage 2 is game with some sandbox elements, at other site WoW is a themepark, and for sure GW2 is clean themepark. But like Anets show us banners with mounted dolyaks, which are only “art”, they are talking all the time about players who are changing the game world. The question is – do Anets believe in their own words /which shows they are incompetent/ or all is just advertisement /which makes them liars/. Yes, I’m a little bit angry, cause they sold me themepark game in a sandbox pack.

I can assure you I am not the one who considers GTA a sandbox: here are 5 big publications that also consider it a sandbox:

http://www.shacknews.com/article/79012/grand-theft-auto-dna-the-art-of-sandbox-gaming

http://www.qj.net/qjnet/playstation-3/grand-theft-auto-4-redefining-the-sandbox-game.html

http://www.psu.com/Riccitiello--GTA-IV-is-gamings-Best-Picture--a003368-p0.php —> “Riccitiello feels that the highly anticipated sandbox title will back up his assertion that videogames will soon be viewed in the same entertainment capacity as the movie industries biggest films.”

http://www.giantbomb.com/grand-theft-auto/3025-6/ —> “It pushed the medium to new graphical and technical heights, massively popularized its style of open-ended sandbox gameplay”

http://www.pcworld.com/article/145116/article.html —> “series uses its astonishing $100 million budget so effectively, in fact, that it’s difficult to imagine this deluxe sandbox and crime spree simulator being a single penny better.”

but perhpas more importantly do rockstar feel GTA is a sandbox game… asnwer seems yes:
http://support.rockstargames.com/entries/20058817-Sandbox-Modes-and-Free-Roam-in-L-A-Noire —> " Is L.A. Noire a sandbox game like GTA IV? "

Simply speaking every sandbox game is open world but not every open world is a sandbox game. It depends how you handle your open world. If you’ve got an open world but are restricted where you can play in that open world because of level, story gate or whatever then thats not a sandbox. If you’re free to play anywhere in the open world then thats a sandbox. There is more to sandbox then just building.

For example you claim Black desert is a sandbox but in black desert you cant build anything on the open world as far as i know, the housing in that game is just predefined houses in towns that you can bid for. the sandbox elements thakittens being marked off are the life like open world where npcs go about their own daily lives. An extensive trading system. And House customization.

Guess which game has something similar to an life like open world where npc go on with their daily lives? Ergo if black desert is a sandbox Gw2 shares at least one characteristic with it hence that alone would make the statement that Gw2 has some sandbox elements true!

I already explained why some people name GTA a sandbox while it really isn’t one. So basically you can say those people are wrong or you can say.. if people use the word for that then it becomes true, fair enough but then it means sandbox is now a definition for more then one type while Ikcen was referring to the type where you can change the world. Personally I go for the idea people simply use the wrong word. Just because many people name a banana fruit does not yet make it fruit.

Devata.6589:

Appoh.2875:

An expansion would do this game so much good. also if they want money ADD MORE TO MERCHANDISE STORE! i’ve wanted one of those fuzzy quaggan hats since it was in the gem store. add more stuff for R/L plox

If you want an expansion don’t buy gems because then they will focus on the gem-store and not on the expansion. Sadly thats where we at.

Expansions are back on the table (see the latest interview with Colin http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/c/2585362 ) but it’s not 100% sure yet.

So if you really want expansions you maybe better transfer gold to gems to get something from the gem-store and support them some extra with the expansion by buying the collector edition.

Thanks for the link. I hope they don’t give up on expansions, that would be a rather foolish business plan. Many people are already critical of cashshop heavy games. Anet has done a good job of incorporating items that, for the most part, do not give significant player advantages. Still, it would help them tremendously if the fans, established GW2 community, and potential new buyers could see expansions once in a while providing larger, permanent content that can be purchased to help fund the game in a more significant way.

Living story content is just fine as a derivative way to pass the time, but moving away from expansions entirely is extremely foolish. With entire games on the horizon such as ESO, Archeage, etc. on the horizon, that provide worlds of new content people will lose interest in tiny updates and move on to bigger and better things.

Expansions may be time and resource consuming, but they will add positive for lack of a better word vibes, showing that this company is actively incorporating larger, exciting content to explore.

The recent updates and changes have been amazing and really reinvigorate the community as a whole. People who would have played regardless or have continued to play seem to be for the most part happy with new events and places to explore.

HOWEVER I would argue that most of the community, as loyal as we are would very much like to see larger, more significant updates in the far future.

If the living story can stay relevant to the original storyline such as is related to the personals stories and the larger ever looming threat of the Elder Dragons then it might not be so bad to keep having small updates for a while.

Without expansions however, I worry for the condition of this game’s community in the long run.

Devata.6589:

The design decisions I refer to I also put in my last comment but I will sum them up here for you again.

Temporary content (the temporary events with temporary achievements but also items temporary available in the gem-store), gold-driven system and RNG-boxes.

Yeah I’d also add the reduction in loot drops forcing players to the TP to buy what they need.

If only, if only the content wasn’t temporary. I really honestly believe this is the WORST choice possible – doing it on a 2 week basis and making everything temporary. If I ever can’t play every day anymore and have to take, say a 1 month brake, I will already miss 2 content patches. GW2 will become a game for the unemployed, the kids that go to school, seniors that are retired…people with a job will sooner or later not be able to keep up. Just sad.

Stop the temporary content. Seriously.

Devata.6589:

But no matter if some people have the self-control and other don’t, the pressure is there for all.

I think you might be taking stuff too much in absolute terms. Rifts decision to switch to F2P might even have had nothing to do with loosing too much of its player base. This trend that the F2P model is some shameful model you switch to as a last resort is wrong. Time and Time again F2P has proven to generate higher revenues then even a subscription. When Swtor switched to F2P it still had over 500k subs yet the switch resulted in more then double the profits. All things being Equal Rift only had 1m subs akittens peak right after launch. We all know every sub MMO with very few exceptions has the largest amount of players at launch and then declines a bit which brings me to the next point.

I played Rift when it was still P2P I mean but subscriptions make such agames tricky. I tend to take breaks from MMOs for various reasons. I am not one for your traditional end game, I get bored of it quickly. There is a new MMO I want to try. I want to go back to one of my older MMOs etc.. Subscriptions make that transition tricky. That means if I unsubscribe for me to come back a lot of conditions need to be right.. I have to grow tired of whatever I am playing and there must be no other new MMOs that I wanna try released in between. You can see how tricky that is. That being said I went back 3 or 4 times to Rift before it switched over to F2P. But in those stretches when I was not playing, should I be considered as 1 subscriber to that game? Logic says no, but I hadnt abandoned it either. Thats why I caution you on absolutes. Even if the player count falls it doesnt mean that the game failed it could be one of those transitions.

Its also why F2P makes much more sense. I have no doubt had Rift been F2P all along those transition times wouldnt have existed, I would have simply reduced a bit my play time and possibly still spend a little money here and there but even if a player plays and doesnt spend anything it still makes the game feel healthy. Though to be fair everytime I joined the world never seemed empty so I dont think this was an issue with rift at all.

So no I dont think Rift switched to F2P because it failed. And even if that was the case, I certainly dont think that happened because it did something wrong. Its just a sideeffect of that type of payment model. Subscriptions make it easy for you to loose players (try another game, run into hard times, need a break, busy month ahead etc…) and hard to get them back. Its a wall in a sort of way.

As for WoW’s cash shop, yes I agree up till now unless you were a collector it didnt pressure you much into buying anything. But WoW as a game has a very competititve enviroment that is all about getting to end game as quickly as possible and gearing up as quickly as possible. We know the cash shop is going to expand and we know for sure 2 new items will include XP boost and Lesser charms of good fortune (that essentially give you extra drops in raids) I think A LOT of players will feel pressured into buying those. But anyhow I think I disagree with your assessment that a game that has a subscription doesnt need to push for the cash shop as much as a game that just has a cash shop. In most companies those will be under different teams and each of them will have their own Key performance indicators. I dont see stock holders and board members ignoring KPIs of the cash shop teams just cause subscriptions are doing great. The team responsible for the cash shop will still do their utmost to have a great performance review at the end of the day. So I think the motivation cycle is likely to be the same in both type of games.

I have to disagree here as well I am afraid. I dont deny that some people feel pressured by the Gem store and for different reasons too. Some because they have to have gold in game others because they just cant not have a particular skin etc.. But its definitely not the case that the pressure is there and certainly not equal for all. I promise you I never felt any pressure what so ever to use the cash shop… in fact I didnt even really need to buy anything from the cash shop. What I bought I did just to support Arenanet cause I am having a lot of fun in the game and seems fair to give something back. For example I bought 2 character slots, I created the characters immediately (just cause you know hoping of Birthday presents like there was in Gw1) but to this day they’;re still there sitting on level 1.

Zlociutki.9165:

If the GW2 will sold on the asiatic market we will get the new big expansion from AN, ordered by the NCsoft. Otherwise we will not see any new elder dragon in Gw2 from NCsoft/AN.

So whats your bases to claim Arenanet lied? since they clearly said that even if they never release and expansion we’ll still get new storylines and new elder dragons etc…

Devata.6589:

Of course there you also find the kill x this and collect x that but it also had some real nice story quest.

I am surprised here honestly. A tight control on the economy you have no problem of blaming it on the cash shop because you feel it pressures you into engaging in RMT even though that same tight control is beneficial on the players because it avoid rampant inflation that if you played games like EQ2 you know how bad it can get. But on the other hand you see no nefarious intent behind a delay in crafting? using the same logic that if something is financial beneficial for the company then that company will exploit in, in a game like WoW where the longer it takes you to do something the longer you’ll subscribe hench the more money they’ll make, isnt it in their best interest to prolong such actions as much as possible?

Now maybe its as you say and that delay is just to create a sense of well this takes time to create. But let me ask you this, which system is more enjoyable, WoWs? or Gw2s? So that delay is really not adding anything for the player and dont get me wrong I am one for realism but the crafting delay doesnt really add that. I wouldnt remove casting animation / casting time for example, that delay is enjoyable but the crafting one? I can certainly live without it.

how can you say nothing really changes? if anything its more accurate to say things change too much rather then not change at all. Sure if you’re in a super populated map the village you just saved will be attacked in 5 minutes. If you’re all alone its much more then that btw, its more like 15 – 30 minutes (the frequency increases if there are a lot of players around) but in most cases thats not a problem at all, its more of what we know as players that kinda takes out the immersion of dynamic events because in those 5 – 30 mins its very likely you’ll have moved away unless your farming in which case you wouldnt really care about immersion. What I am saying is sure I know the little female asura (forgot her name) keeps putting on her jotin suit to study the jotins and she keeps getting dragged away cause one of them will fall in love with her. But my character only experienced it once. I know that the pirates keep trying to take the relics in lornar’s pass and the order of whispers keeps trying to stop them. But my character was only involved a few times with that. Of course there are times when this can come back. I know the troll gets angry when you take his stone and I’ve seen that 100s of times by now, not really the games fault though there are many places where I can kill champions but if I am trying to finish off a daily before I log off… he’s my favorite victim since he can be trigger on demand most of the time.

Unfortunately I never played chronicles of spellborn. But while not all of them there are dynamic events with good stories, some with funny stories but as a player who reads quest texts none of them are really generic like most of the others end up being. In most other MMOs there comes a point where I just give up and stop reading the side quests because they really end up exactly the same with 1 different line to give a similar but ever so slightly different excuse. In Gw2 I have yet to come across a dynamic event that feels like its just a slightly modified copy of another dynamic event and thats great! Of course for fairness sake those other mmos have order of magnitute more quests then gw2 has dynamic events so at some point it has to become hard to create a unique story for every quest but you know it still bugs you.

Like I said, what distinquishes quests / dynamic events is the story. In every quest or DE you’ll end up killing a of x, interact with y or move to point z. Thats unavoidable cause thats all you can really do in a game.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

Vayne.8563:

Galen Grey.4709:

morrolan.9608:

Devata.6589:

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You left out one thing. Everything about subscription games that I’ve seen leads to slowing you down. Lockouts, RNG loot in dungeons so you have to run them umpteen times to get gear that you need to progress, flight paths, long amount of time crafting, long waits to level, that sort of thing.

If F2P games push you toward the cash shop, subscription games push you to play longer and slower.

In my opinion all mmo’s do that. Including GW2 and the F2P games.

Flight paths I think are more to make the game more immersive and show the size of the world. Lets face it.. teleporting all over the map is not the most immersive thing in GW2 and it makes the world much smaller.

About the rng loot in dungeons, usually you don’t ‘need’ that loot to go on, it is a nice to have, many times it are even mini’s or mounts. Sometimes the armor gives you a little bit extra power but not so much that you need it to go on. In GW2 you also need to do multiple runs to get your set from one dungeon (thats a nice to have) they just don’t have rare items drop from dungeons (I mean like the one we did have in MF and AR). In fact it could use some more rare drop from dungeons and mobs. It’s one part of the end-content many people are missing.

I don’t buy it. You can’t compare flight paths with map travel for speed. In WoW when you craft 100 of something it takes six years. You might want to go make a snack. In Guild Wars 2, when you craft multiples of something, it speeds up. Guild Wars 2 is particularly fast to get to max level and max gear, except for ascended trinkets, but that doesn’t lock you out of content. That’s what all the subscription games tend to do. It’s what the gear treadmill is all about.

People complain about the dailies in this game…I guess they never saw the WoW dailies. I honestly don’t see how you can compare.

The craft time in WoW is just based on 1 item takes x time. Don’t tell me they just do that so it takes you longer. GW2 was very smart and reduces that with every try. It’s simply not something Blizzard did think of and I would not be surprised if they would introduce that in a future patch.

“You can’t compare flight paths with map travel for speed.” Not sure what you want to say with this. You did say flight paths where there so everything would take you longer didn’t you? I think they are there because it makes more sense as teleporting all over the map (more immersive) and so you get the feeling of a big world.

“Guild Wars 2 is particularly fast to get to max level and max gear” that part is true however personally I think the leveling is a little boring for alts. Kill x attacking centaur to scare them away, collect x that, find x samples. In other games many of the quest where similar but you could also go for the quest that had more of a story and usually they even gave you more xp. To make the leveling more fun in GW2 that would not be a bad addition. But indeed purely looking at the time it takes less time to get to 80 and some exotic lvl 80 gear (at least for the first char, alt chars tent to go faster then the first char in other MMO’s while in GW2 they all have the same speed).

The first time you do flight paths, they’re awesome. The second time to. By the 75th time you do the same flight path, there’s nothing awesome about them. They’re time wasters. And if you don’t believe they were put in for that way, there’s nothing much I can say.

Particularly when you have to take multiple flights to get somewhere. It’s just there to slow you down. The leveling takes a long time to slow you down. Everything takes time to slow you down.

It’s funny to me that you believe that everything in a cash shop game is designed to take you to the cash shop, but everything in a pay to play game isn’t designed to keep you playing longer. WoW is a business. They designed the game to keep you playing. Part of that is by intentionally making it addictive and part of it is by slowing you down (historically things like lockouts). I played Guild Wars 1 and I never heard of a lockout on dungeon there. And while Guild Wars 2 does have diminishing returns on tokens, that’s just for dungeon armor. You can still run dungeons (CoF path 1 anyone) whenever you want.

What’s the reason for lockouts? Slowing people down. And of course the rep grind, 25 daily quests, they want you slowed down.

Guild Wars 2 dailies are NOTHING compared to WoW dailies.

Devata.6589:

I already explained why some people name GTA a sandbox while it really isn’t one. So basically you can say those people are wrong or you can say.. if people use the word for that then it becomes true, fair enough but then it means sandbox is now a definition for more then one type while Ikcen was referring to the type where you can change the world. Personally I go for the idea people simply use the wrong word. Just because many people name a banana fruit does not yet make it fruit.

problem is there an official explanation of what constitutes a sandbox? cause its more like a concept than something tangible. For example what constitutes changing the world? me liberating a village isnt that changing the world? helping to colonizing a new island, is that me changing the world? Crafting this new sword… is that me changing the world? You might argue the scale isnt big enough because I am changing it in predefined world but then one could reply to that, is eve really a sandbox? you can build stuff sure but its all predefined stuff not like minecraft where you can build whatever you desire!

What I am trying to say is a lot of what makes a sandbox a sandbox is up to interpretation. Some draw the line at an open world where you’re free to play in any part of it making your own game. Some like you say its not a sandbox unless you change the world (by how much is open to interpretation) simply speaking sandbox is not like fiction and non fiction where you can easily decide what falls under what.

Zhaneel.9208:

Thanks for the link. I hope they don’t give up on expansions, that would be a rather foolish business plan. Many people are already critical of cashshop heavy games. Anet has done a good job of incorporating items that, for the most part, do not give significant player advantages. Still, it would help them tremendously if the fans, established GW2 community, and potential new buyers could see expansions once in a while providing larger, permanent content that can be purchased to help fund the game in a more significant way.

Living story content is just fine as a derivative way to pass the time, but moving away from expansions entirely is extremely foolish. With entire games on the horizon such as ESO, Archeage, etc. on the horizon, that provide worlds of new content people will lose interest in tiny updates and move on to bigger and better things.

Expansions may be time and resource consuming, but they will add positive for lack of a better word vibes, showing that this company is actively incorporating larger, exciting content to explore.

The recent updates and changes have been amazing and really reinvigorate the community as a whole. People who would have played regardless or have continued to play seem to be for the most part happy with new events and places to explore.

HOWEVER I would argue that most of the community, as loyal as we are would very much like to see larger, more significant updates in the far future.

If the living story can stay relevant to the original storyline such as is related to the personals stories and the larger ever looming threat of the Elder Dragons then it might not be so bad to keep having small updates for a while.

Without expansions however, I worry for the condition of this game’s community in the long run.

Just one thing you’re interpreting not having an expansion as meaning we wouldnt be getting the content you typical find in an expansion. Thats not what they’re said, they said they’d still build the same stuff just not release in a package. Living story vs Expansion is not about what content they’re going to do just on how they’re going release it. Living story will be released as it goes month after month. Expansion means it will be released as a bundle after an x amount of time generally 1 – 1.5 years

but both will include the same type of content, new weapons, new races, new personal story, new zones etc…

living world = short event stories

expansion = long story

i really love playing through stories even though i am probably a little bit pvp/wvw focused in this game. and better yet if story would be actually good unlike original gw2 story which is horrible.

of course i don’t mind if they actually release long story camouflaged as living story. but i really don’t like living world events like they are now i want some “serious” story content.

^ You do know that the current living story arc have been going on since January, right?

Galen Grey.4709:

problem is there an official explanation of what constitutes a sandbox? cause its more like a concept than something tangible.

Lol, seems pointless to talk with you. If you are not right you just start explanations and leaves without figs. GW2 is not a sandbox, it’s clear. The main elements of sandbox are missing. There is no matter /effect on the game world/ if you play it or not, or how long you play it. You have no property, there is no tournaments /this thing with arenas is everything else but not a tournament, cause at the end nobody wins, ppl just play it/, you cannot build, and your actions change nothing in the game. If I don’t help the villagers to stop centaurus, they will not start to hate me, my decision will change nothing. It’s clear, that Anet lie in their advertisement, when promised a sandbox game. And it was a great advertisement. Yesterday some player say GW2 is the best game he ever played. So I asked him how many mmos he ever played, and he told me – one, this one. GW2 is a good ad, but it’s not sandbox mmo. Anet just set the cart before the horse. They had to create a good game and then to advertise it, not vice versa.

morrolan.9608:

Devata.6589:

The design decisions I refer to I also put in my last comment but I will sum them up here for you again.

Temporary content (the temporary events with temporary achievements but also items temporary available in the gem-store), gold-driven system and RNG-boxes.

Yeah I’d also add the reduction in loot drops forcing players to the TP to buy what they need.

Thats the gold-driven system.

Firefly.5982:

If only, if only the content wasn’t temporary. I really honestly believe this is the WORST choice possible – doing it on a 2 week basis and making everything temporary. If I ever can’t play every day anymore and have to take, say a 1 month brake, I will already miss 2 content patches. GW2 will become a game for the unemployed, the kids that go to school, seniors that are retired…people with a job will sooner or later not be able to keep up. Just sad.

Stop the temporary content. Seriously.

Colin said in a recent interview that only the story would still be temporary while the additions (content) would stay in.

However I also have the feeling they don’t really understand what temporary content means because while they promise to do something about that they not introduce a way to fuse crystals once a day and there will be a new crafting-material introduces that we can also only get in a limited number per dame. Next to the laurels thats more time-gated content and time-gated content has the same problem because in a way it is also temporary content.

That 1 laurel is only today available, do it tomorrow and you miss one. Same for those crystals and that new crafting material. Luckily they promised to take the worst version of it out but it doesn’t really help if at the same time they start introducing more and more other time-gated / temporary content.

Ikcen.7518:

Galen Grey.4709:

problem is there an official explanation of what constitutes a sandbox? cause its more like a concept than something tangible.

Lol, seems pointless to talk with you. If you are not right you just start explanations and leaves without figs. GW2 is not a sandbox, it’s clear. The main elements of sandbox are missing. There is no matter /effect on the game world/ if you play it or not, or how long you play it. You have no property, there is no tournaments /this thing with arenas is everything else but not a tournament, cause at the end nobody wins, ppl just play it/, you cannot build, and your actions change nothing in the game. If I don’t help the villagers to stop centaurus, they will not start to hate me, my decision will change nothing. It’s clear, that Anet lie in their advertisement, when promised a sandbox game. And it was a great advertisement. Yesterday some player say GW2 is the best game he ever played. So I asked him how many mmos he ever played, and he told me – one, this one. GW2 is a good ad, but it’s not sandbox mmo. Anet just set the cart before the horse. They had to create a good game and then to advertise it, not vice versa.

When did Anet say that GW2 is a sandbox game? I can’t remember them saying this in any advertisement.

As for your decisions changing nothing, I bet you haven’t seen ANY of the meta events where player actions lead to different events. Get out of LA, go into Gendaran Fields, go to Ascalon Settlement and enjoy the show, player actions do affect the outcome and the game in general. I wouldn’t call any of that “sandbox” though

Ikcen.7518:

Galen Grey.4709:

problem is there an official explanation of what constitutes a sandbox? cause its more like a concept than something tangible.

Lol, seems pointless to talk with you. If you are not right you just start explanations and leaves without figs. GW2 is not a sandbox, it’s clear. The main elements of sandbox are missing. There is no matter /effect on the game world/ if you play it or not, or how long you play it. You have no property, there is no tournaments /this thing with arenas is everything else but not a tournament, cause at the end nobody wins, ppl just play it/, you cannot build, and your actions change nothing in the game. If I don’t help the villagers to stop centaurus, they will not start to hate me, my decision will change nothing. It’s clear, that Anet lie in their advertisement, when promised a sandbox game. And it was a great advertisement. Yesterday some player say GW2 is the best game he ever played. So I asked him how many mmos he ever played, and he told me – one, this one. GW2 is a good ad, but it’s not sandbox mmo. Anet just set the cart before the horse. They had to create a good game and then to advertise it, not vice versa.

[sarcasm] yes… People who are wrong are especially known for backing their statements up with explanations not like people who are right who just state stuff without backing it up in anyway [/sarcasm]

Now for some clarification, I would like you to point out exactly where I claim Gw2 is a sandbox because what I said was “For starter the game was never promised as a sandbox at all. It was promised as theme park that has some sandbox elements” and that means you know that Gw2 isnt a sandbox so we fully agree there. Has sandbox elements doesnt mean its a sandbox it means that it simply shares some common traits with a sandbox. Which it does.

Are you really being serious here? Of course you have an effect on the world:
“If I don’t help the villagers to stop centaurs, they will not start to hate me, my decision will change nothing.” Really? are you sure you’re even playing the same game? If you dont help the villagers they will most definitely not hate you because they’ll be busy at being dead, killed by the centaurs you let ravage the village. Now the streets are filled with centaurs rather then villagers. how exactly can they hate you if they died? And perhaps more importantly Villagers are happy going about their business…. Centaurs attack and you do nothing…. village is in flames, villagers dead, Centaurs roaming about. I might be wrong but villagers happy going about their business is not the same as village in flames, villagers dead and centaurs walking in the streets so please tell me how exactly is that what you call nothing changes?

No you’re the one who is not telling the truth I am afraid because Arenanet NEVER promised a sandbox game, you’re the one stating that but please feel free to link and official declaration where Gw2 was promised to be a sandbox. Cause the only thing I ever heard them saying is that it will be a themepark with some sandbox elements. A themepark with sandbox elements does not imply this will be a sandbox it implies this game will most definitely be a themepark but it will have some elements which are in common with Sandbox games and thats true. I played Eve Online, Rift, Star trek Online, the original Guild Wars, Fallen Earth, Aion, Tera, Raiderz, Age of Wushu, Allods online, Ever Quest 2, Lord of the rings online, The Secret world, Star wars the old republic, World of Warcraft, Lineage 2, Black prophecy, Dungeons and Dragons online, and more… And yes Gw2 is the one that comes closests to my perfect MMO.. its not perfect it does have a few issues and being a fan of sandboxes I would definitely would love more Sandbox Elements put into the game but overall yes it is my favorite MMO.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

But no matter if some people have the self-control and other don’t, the pressure is there for all.

…….

So no I dont think Rift switched to F2P because it failed. And even if that was the case, I certainly dont think that happened because it did something wrong. Its just a sideeffect of that type of payment model. Subscriptions make it easy for you to loose players (try another game, run into hard times, need a break, busy month ahead etc…) and hard to get them back. Its a wall in a sort of way.

As for WoW’s cash shop, yes I agree up till now unless you were a collector it didnt pressure you much into buying anything. But WoW as a game has a very competititve enviroment that is all about getting to end game as quickly as possible and gearing up as quickly as possible. We know the cash shop is going to expand and we know for sure 2 new items will include XP boost and Lesser charms of good fortune (that essentially give you extra drops in raids) I think A LOT of players will feel pressured into buying those. But anyhow I think I disagree with your assessment that a game that has a subscription doesnt need to push for the cash shop as much as a game that just has a cash shop. In most companies those will be under different teams and each of them will have their own Key performance indicators. I dont see stock holders and board members ignoring KPIs of the cash shop teams just cause subscriptions are doing great. The team responsible for the cash shop will still do their utmost to have a great performance review at the end of the day. So I think the motivation cycle is likely to be the same in both type of games.

I have to disagree here as well I am afraid. I dont deny that some people feel pressured by the Gem store and for different reasons too. Some because they have to have gold in game others because they just cant not have a particular skin etc.. But its definitely not the case that the pressure is there and certainly not equal for all. I promise you I never felt any pressure what so ever to use the cash shop… in fact I didnt even really need to buy anything from the cash shop. What I bought I did just to support Arenanet cause I am having a lot of fun in the game and seems fair to give something back. For example I bought 2 character slots, I created the characters immediately (just cause you know hoping of Birthday presents like there was in Gw1) but to this day they’;re still there sitting on level 1.

Let’s not fool yourself. Rift hoped to make a lot of money with subscriptions.. just like nearly all the other MMO over the last year and they all had to move to F2P in 1 / 2 year. All of them. Thats not because suddenly they wanted to change thats because they lost income mainly because the players went away. You sort of say it yourself “played Rift when it was still P2P”.

Is it possible that a game go’s from sub-based to F2P without that you can say the subscription failed. Yes, Lineage 2 is a good example of that but games like Rift, LotFO, SWToR, Secret World and so on simply went to F2P because they subscription approached failed. They hoped to be able to match WoW.

You might not think Rift switched because it P2P failed for them and you might even find a quote from people behind Rift saying they moved to F2P not because P2P failed for them but because F2P would be better or is the new standard.

That you never felt pressured is then because they never put anything you liked in the gem-store (temporary). But thats why they did try to do. Put something in you like so you feel pressured to buy. If you don’t like any of those items you personal do not feel pressured but they try to make stuff people like so the pressure is there for anybody. Thats what I mean.. it’s not like only the buyers have that problem. I have seen some things come and go that I would like to have. Now I don’t buy it but still I would like to have it and it’s only available for a limited time so thats a pressure isn’t it?

Devata.6589:

Let’s not fool yourself. Rift hoped to make a lot of money with subscriptions.. just like nearly all the other MMO over the last year and they all had to move to F2P in 1 / 2 year. All of them. Thats not because suddenly they wanted to change thats because they lost income mainly because the players went away. You sort of say it yourself “played Rift when it was still P2P”.

Is it possible that a game go’s from sub-based to F2P without that you can say the subscription failed. Yes, Lineage 2 is a good example of that but games like Rift, LotFO, SWToR, Secret World and so on simply went to F2P because they subscription approached failed. They hoped to be able to match WoW.

You might not think Rift switched because it P2P failed for them and you might even find a quote from people behind Rift saying they moved to F2P not because P2P failed for them but because F2P would be better or is the new standard.

That you never felt pressured is then because they never put anything you liked in the gem-store (temporary). But thats why they did try to do. Put something in you like so you feel pressured to buy. If you don’t like any of those items you personal do not feel pressured but they try to make stuff people like so the pressure is there for anybody. Thats what I mean.. it’s not like only the buyers have that problem. I have seen some things come and go that I would like to have. Now I don’t buy it but still I would like to have it and it’s only available for a limited time so thats a pressure isn’t it?

Oh I dont doubt that but there is a difference between not meeting your expectation and failing. I am sure Rift was hoping for WoW’s success like all those who start subscription and I am sure if they did get those numbers they wouldnt change. Even if they had 1m – 2m subs they probably wouldnt change. But its not just about success and failure there is a whole grey ocean in between. Simply speaking there is a point where while you’re still doing great as a sub you could do more as F2P.

I dont know where that lies exactly but lets say a f2p game makes about 100m a year. I know some of them do based on reports. thats the equivalent of 555k subs so if you fall under 500k subs its likely that switching f2p you’re going to make more money. That doesnt mean you’re failing games like Warhammer online seem to be doing fine with less then 1/2 that. But there is no point of sticking with p2p and potentially loosing money until you get to the point where you really failed. Its hard to pick up new users with a sub its much easier to loose them so chances are its going to keep getting worst.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Of course there you also find the kill x this and collect x that but it also had some real nice story quest.

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Like I said, what distinquishes quests / dynamic events is the story. In every quest or DE you’ll end up killing a of x, interact with y or move to point z. Thats unavoidable cause thats all you can really do in a game.

No I don’t see that. I don’t think WoW let crafting take time simply to take there time. We are maybe talking about 2 extra minutes here. Maybe you think everything about WoW is bad but thinking they did that just to keep people busy seems silly to me. So GW2 does the same then? Because yeah the time decreases but it still takes time doesn’t it? And the need for a crafting station is then most likely also just so it will take time, and the fact the if you do /sit there is an animation before you really sit is also just to take time? Come on, if I was to design something like then I would make it cost time.., not to take time but simply because it makes sense that crafting takes time.

I already said GW2 did this better. It was simply something Blizzard did not think of and looking at it it makes less sense however people get bored having to wait while crafting (what make more sense) so Anet came up with a solution. Simply something the blizz people did not come up with but like I said I would not be surprised if in a future patch they would implement that.

Well you are wrong there that you don’t see it because you move on. In those 5 / 30 minutes you will walk past the village you just saved, however now it’s suddenly taken by the centaurs. Not even to talk about alts. Yes it is hard to really have a solution for that problem but it is what it is. The fact that events and mobs also spawn way to soon (even when you are alone) does not help. You are almost never able to clear an area for some time because they keep spawning behind you… well except after the nerve on Southsun Cove when people where farming skelks, then it was suddenly a bug, but the same mechanism all of the rest of Tyria is no bug (except if those mobs drop anything useful). What brings us back to the gold-driven system / not being able to farm.

It’s simply not what they said before release what it would be.

“Like I said, what distinquishes quests / dynamic events is the story. In every quest or DE you’ll end up killing a of x, interact with y or move to point z. Thats unavoidable cause thats all you can really do in a game.”
Well I have the feeling the other way around. In every dynamic event you’ll end up killing a of x and collect y of something else.

Quest also have that a lot but there are also quest with a story and the ones you refer to “move to point z” can be interesting as they send you over the whole world, meeting people and so on. The only real moving dynamic events have that I have seen is escort dynamic events (Who are basically the same as traditional quest). Part of the problem might also be the fact that maps are instance based to dynamic events can’t really travel far, they need to be in one place.

But maybe I should put it in another way. In some other MMO’s with traditional quest I really started to know some of the NPC’s. I know, thats the woman who lost her son to a crocodile, thats the guy who told me about the white tiger and so on. In GW2 all the NPC’s are just well NPC’s.

I would love it if I was to speak to one of the children in queensdale (left of the entrance to DR) they would tell me how they had found a warhorn while paying and then telling me that there grandpa always told a story about a mistery wolf that could be summoned with a warhorn. So then they send me to there grandpa. The grandpa then tells me that story (and the place where you could summon the wolf) and send be to his neighbor who can maybe translate some symbols on the warhorn because he is studied old symbols. The neighbor then translate it and it is some tune I can play.
Next thing I do it go to the spot the grandpa told me and there I play the tune. A ghostly wolf appears and then he attacks me. As a ranger I can then tame it to have a rare pet or I can kill it for some nice loot or I can catch it, cut some hair of and then let it go again. Now it could end there (no back-tracking) or I might have the option to go back to the kids to give them a lock of hair because there grandpa told me it would give good luck.. Maybe if I was a ranger I could show it to them and they could play with the wolf (Last part I did never see in quest btw).

Now what happened is that I went on a little adventure. I learned to know the kids, I know who is there grandpa and I know that his neighbor studies old symbols plus I might even tame a rare pet. Thats creates sort of a band where now it are just NPC’s being NPC’s.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

Vayne.8563:

Galen Grey.4709:

morrolan.9608:

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I don’t buy it. You can’t compare flight paths with map travel for speed. In WoW when you craft 100 of something it takes six years. You might want to go make a snack. In Guild Wars 2, when you craft multiples of something, it speeds up. Guild Wars 2 is particularly fast to get to max level and max gear, except for ascended trinkets, but that doesn’t lock you out of content. That’s what all the subscription games tend to do. It’s what the gear treadmill is all about.

People complain about the dailies in this game…I guess they never saw the WoW dailies. I honestly don’t see how you can compare.

The craft time in WoW is just based on 1 item takes x time. Don’t tell me they just do that so it takes you longer. GW2 was very smart and reduces that with every try. It’s simply not something Blizzard did think of and I would not be surprised if they would introduce that in a future patch.

“You can’t compare flight paths with map travel for speed.” Not sure what you want to say with this. You did say flight paths where there so everything would take you longer didn’t you? I think they are there because it makes more sense as teleporting all over the map (more immersive) and so you get the feeling of a big world.

“Guild Wars 2 is particularly fast to get to max level and max gear” that part is true however personally I think the leveling is a little boring for alts. Kill x attacking centaur to scare them away, collect x that, find x samples. In other games many of the quest where similar but you could also go for the quest that had more of a story and usually they even gave you more xp. To make the leveling more fun in GW2 that would not be a bad addition. But indeed purely looking at the time it takes less time to get to 80 and some exotic lvl 80 gear (at least for the first char, alt chars tent to go faster then the first char in other MMO’s while in GW2 they all have the same speed).

The first time you do flight paths, they’re awesome. The second time to. By the 75th time you do the same flight path, there’s nothing awesome about them. They’re time wasters. And if you don’t believe they were put in for that way, there’s nothing much I can say.

Particularly when you have to take multiple flights to get somewhere. It’s just there to slow you down. The leveling takes a long time to slow you down. Everything takes time to slow you down.

It’s funny to me that you believe that everything in a cash shop game is designed to take you to the cash shop, but everything in a pay to play game isn’t designed to keep you playing longer. WoW is a business. They designed the game to keep you playing. Part of that is by intentionally making it addictive and part of it is by slowing you down (historically things like lockouts). I played Guild Wars 1 and I never heard of a lockout on dungeon there. And while Guild Wars 2 does have diminishing returns on tokens, that’s just for dungeon armor. You can still run dungeons (CoF path 1 anyone) whenever you want.

What’s the reason for lockouts? Slowing people down. And of course the rep grind, 25 daily quests, they want you slowed down.

Guild Wars 2 dailies are NOTHING compared to WoW dailies.

And it’s funny to me how you keep making things up. I did not say everything in a pay to play game isn’t designed to keep you playing longer. I already agreed leveling takes longer and that is most likely to keep you busy longer. But your flight path example is just hmm.

You know.. if they did not put them in traveling took even longer. Just saying.

Vol.5241:

“But what about making money? Guild Wars 1 survived on paid expansions, editions, add-ons, whatever you want to call them – are we to believe that the boxed sales of Guild Wars 2 and micro-transactions are enough to sustain such a large operation?

“Yes,” responded Zadorojny. “It absolutely is enough.”

And you guys wonder why they keep making RNG boxes? It sells. I say continue on with that trend.

As long as they actually don’t force 2000€ worth of boxes on average per skin, I’m fine with them!

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

Vayne.8563:

Galen Grey.4709:

morrolan.9608:

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I don’t buy it. You can’t compare flight paths with map travel for speed. In WoW when you craft 100 of something it takes six years. You might want to go make a snack. In Guild Wars 2, when you craft multiples of something, it speeds up. Guild Wars 2 is particularly fast to get to max level and max gear, except for ascended trinkets, but that doesn’t lock you out of content. That’s what all the subscription games tend to do. It’s what the gear treadmill is all about.

People complain about the dailies in this game…I guess they never saw the WoW dailies. I honestly don’t see how you can compare.

The craft time in WoW is just based on 1 item takes x time. Don’t tell me they just do that so it takes you longer. GW2 was very smart and reduces that with every try. It’s simply not something Blizzard did think of and I would not be surprised if they would introduce that in a future patch.

“You can’t compare flight paths with map travel for speed.” Not sure what you want to say with this. You did say flight paths where there so everything would take you longer didn’t you? I think they are there because it makes more sense as teleporting all over the map (more immersive) and so you get the feeling of a big world.

“Guild Wars 2 is particularly fast to get to max level and max gear” that part is true however personally I think the leveling is a little boring for alts. Kill x attacking centaur to scare them away, collect x that, find x samples. In other games many of the quest where similar but you could also go for the quest that had more of a story and usually they even gave you more xp. To make the leveling more fun in GW2 that would not be a bad addition. But indeed purely looking at the time it takes less time to get to 80 and some exotic lvl 80 gear (at least for the first char, alt chars tent to go faster then the first char in other MMO’s while in GW2 they all have the same speed).

The first time you do flight paths, they’re awesome. The second time to. By the 75th time you do the same flight path, there’s nothing awesome about them. They’re time wasters. And if you don’t believe they were put in for that way, there’s nothing much I can say.

Particularly when you have to take multiple flights to get somewhere. It’s just there to slow you down. The leveling takes a long time to slow you down. Everything takes time to slow you down.

It’s funny to me that you believe that everything in a cash shop game is designed to take you to the cash shop, but everything in a pay to play game isn’t designed to keep you playing longer. WoW is a business. They designed the game to keep you playing. Part of that is by intentionally making it addictive and part of it is by slowing you down (historically things like lockouts). I played Guild Wars 1 and I never heard of a lockout on dungeon there. And while Guild Wars 2 does have diminishing returns on tokens, that’s just for dungeon armor. You can still run dungeons (CoF path 1 anyone) whenever you want.

What’s the reason for lockouts? Slowing people down. And of course the rep grind, 25 daily quests, they want you slowed down.

Guild Wars 2 dailies are NOTHING compared to WoW dailies.

And it’s funny to me how you keep making things up. I did not say everything in a pay to play game isn’t designed to keep you playing longer. I already agreed leveling takes longer and that is most likely to keep you busy longer. But your flight path example is just hmm.

You know.. if they did not put them in traveling took even longer. Just saying.

And if they put more portals or waypoints in traveling would be faster. These companies do nothing by accident. Not Anet and not Blizzard. If it’s in there, it’s in there because somehow they think it’s better. Flight paths take longer, and keep people playing longer than fast travel.

Getting faster mounts you have to grind for, also keeps people playing. You wouldn’t really have to grind for faster mounts if you could instantly be anywhere.

You can say my example is meh, but you weren’t present when the game was being designed and I wasn’t either. I’m relatively sure that every element they put into that game is based on the idea that they want people logged in for longer amounts of time.

Vayne.8563:

What’s the reason for lockouts? Slowing people down. And of course the rep grind, 25 daily quests, they want you slowed down.

Guild Wars 2 dailies are NOTHING compared to WoW dailies.

To be fair. You don’t need to do any dailies to gear up in 5.3, and they’re completely removing the rep requirements from gear in 5.4 So, I think even Blizz sees that these dailies were a bad idea.

Cheers.

Lankybrit.4598:

Vayne.8563:

What’s the reason for lockouts? Slowing people down. And of course the rep grind, 25 daily quests, they want you slowed down.

Guild Wars 2 dailies are NOTHING compared to WoW dailies.

To be fair. You don’t need to do any dailies to gear up in 5.3, and they’re completely removing the rep requirements from gear in 5.4 So, I think even Blizz sees that these dailies were a bad idea.

Cheers.

How many years did it take them to do this?

Vayne.8563:

Lankybrit.4598:

Vayne.8563:

What’s the reason for lockouts? Slowing people down. And of course the rep grind, 25 daily quests, they want you slowed down.

Guild Wars 2 dailies are NOTHING compared to WoW dailies.

To be fair. You don’t need to do any dailies to gear up in 5.3, and they’re completely removing the rep requirements from gear in 5.4 So, I think even Blizz sees that these dailies were a bad idea.

Cheers.

How many years did it take them to do this?

Does it matter? Your point is fine. WoW is a gear grind, and they want you to take your sweet time getting that gear. They add new content all the time that gives you new ways to get the gear, and new gear to get. It’s a treadmill, granted. GW2 is totally different.

But to get back to the point of the thread, isn’t it kind of sad that it looks like no more levels and no more zones for GW2?

Cheers.