Guild Wars 2

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Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

amassing currency by repetitive simple behaviors at a very low rate, is not considered to be enjoyable for most people. Or else people would be signing up to work in sweat shops.

Even if you dont get lucky for anything to drop you can probably buy most of the things in just 2 weeks. How is that a very low rate?

I also heard mentioning people selling tot bags (Which I dont do) earn like 7g per hour, thats very much above the game average per hour has that very low?

And then you have the drops themselves. while earning the currency to buy stuff you want you may get it for free as well.

I am not sure which one of these compares with a sweat shop analogy to be honest

if i told you i would give you a drawing of your charachter(lets say i sell these for 60 bucks), but you have to click the microsoft button on your desktop and close the window for 3 hours a day for 2 weeks, to me that would be a pretty low rate.
essentially, that 42 hours of monotonus activity for a 60 dollar value. 1.42 dollars per hour.

you could do boring repetive task for 7 gold an hour, and get what you want for 290 gold in 2 weeks, or you can spend twenty one dollars worth of work (1-3 hours).
that is a low rate.

7 gold an hour is like 60 cents an hour.
that is sweat shop rates.

Okey let me give you a different perspective on this. How would one know if they have a good wage or a really terrible wage? There is only one way really by comparing what others earn and what you earn together with the purchasing power your wage gives you. There are places in the world where $1 is actually a lot of money. According to wikipedia the lowest minimum wage in the world is in Uganda and it sits at 3c per hour. The $1.42 you mention as being extremely miserable would mean 47 hours of work over there. Everything is relative.

Then you have an element of currency conversion. $1 would convert to 1000s of their currency why is that? different currencies have different values.

$24 can buy me a lot of things in the real world like say 5 burger where as 140 candy corn cobs dont buy me a thing which naturally makes them less valueable.

More then that what exactly I am going to be doing these two weeks? playing the game which right now generally means earning candy corn so technically speaking I am still getting those things for free as i am doing what I will be doing regardless.

Also unless you farm mindlessly its far from monotonus. Plenty of people consider halloween their favorite holiday so pretty sure I am not the only one.

if i had to work for two weeks to get 5 burgers, then that would suck. Regardless, back to the point, the rewards in the game are fairly heavily tied to extreme low rate random number generators. People have opened 10k-27k trick or treat bags, and not gonna the rare drops.

This is not just gambling, its crappy gambling. They need to start looking at other types of reward design for the game besides repetitive boring repititous tasks to get money to buy items obtained through low rate lotteries.

I will admit, that if you really enjoy these types of activities, then whatever you get out of it is a bonus.

I find it hard to believe these activities are that engaging other than seeing item bags fill up though.

phys.7689:

People have opened 10k-27k trick or treat bags, and not gonna the rare drops.

Everyone keeps quoting the people that have opened high numbers of bags without mini, but nobody quotes the people that have opened less than a stack or two and got the mini …

What I’d really be interested in is the amount of bags opened total across all servers, and the amount of minis found total compared to that. Unfortunately, only ANet has those numbers, and I doubt they’d ever release them. It’s the only real indication if the chance works out the way ANet envisioned it, no amount of anecdotal evidence on the forums can come close to that.

Rasimir.6239:

phys.7689:

People have opened 10k-27k trick or treat bags, and not gonna the rare drops.

Everyone keeps quoting the people that have opened high numbers of bags without mini, but nobody quotes the people that have opened less than a stack or two and got the mini …

What I’d really be interested in is the amount of bags opened total across all servers, and the amount of minis found total compared to that. Unfortunately, only ANet has those numbers, and I doubt they’d ever release them. It’s the only real indication if the chance works out the way ANet envisioned it, no amount of anecdotal evidence on the forums can come close to that.

thats because statistically, if the odds were reasonable, people opening 1k-27k bags and not getting the item would be extremely unlikely.
for example, if the chance were 1/1000 bags, your chance of opening 10k, and not getting anything would be .004%

See when odds are extremely unlikely the result becomes truely unpredictable. All you can really say about it is that it is unlikely.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Trick-or-Treat-Bag-research/first#post4518271

basically, the solution they came up to the insane grind of last years halloween, is to hide the grind behind insanely low rates.

On average you may still need 30k items to get the item you want. However people dont realize that, so they can enjoy the event more.

I will say this, i find it disturbing how people these days seem to believe it is impossible to draw any conclusions without all data in existence being available.

you realize almost all of the science that drives the world you live in is based on a lot less data?

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

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Nice story and all but back on subject. If your nifty cat of darkness costs 12 candy corn cobs its because Anet in their wisdom decided they want people to take 4 days of gameplay give or take to earn the little rascal. (4 days because from I experiance you can earn about 3 of the sugary things every day on average) If instead of selling the little fluffy furball they decided to have it drop from say the mad king’s clock tower they’d have to introduce rng and set odds such that on average one would have the little ball of darkness drop after 4 days. Why would that be bad?

1. Some people don’t like jumping puzzles so you’re forcing them to grind content they hate.

2. some have a hard time finishing it while other still can do it each and every time. People who have a had time will never be able to earn one because naturally to keep with the 4 day or so time line they need to balance the drop rate with the people who rarely fail. If you can say do 10 runs an hour, people play an average of 4 hrs per day, 4 days worth of clock tower would be 160 runs. You wouldn’t go with the 160 obviously but even a 1% chance drop rate to have the thing drop every 100 run or so would be unreachable for most of the player base

3. Some people might enjoy other parts of the halloween event other then clock tower yet since they just cant live out without their their personal milk annihilator they;re going to loose the content they enjoy as they’re force to play what they actually dislike.

Currency solves all of these issues. Play the content you feel like playing and you’re getting close and closer to the cute little ball of darkness.

Like I said taking shortcuts is a personal choice. I wanted one the lovable little halloween horrors for myself as well. I didnt have to do anything, could have bought one outright from TP. Or better yet sell all the ToT bags and buy it after the first two days. Yet I personally believe whats important most is having fun playing the game so thats what I did and the RNG gods actually smiled on me this last saturday and now the scary named bag of love has been following me everywhere and Its been an awesome experience every second of it. Had it not dropped by the last day I would have surely outright bought it off TP dont get me wrong but by then it wouldnt have mattered anyway because I’d still had my fun enjoying the content hoping for Zuzu to drop.

Now if only I could get gyjwnmteujei8 or whatever he’s called

Nice story however I talked about working towards the items in the game. Not trading it for another item (what you hole story is about). I kill a boss and he drops the reward I want in stead of I zerg mobs, earn money by selling all drops I do not want and then buy the item I want from another guy ho got that item he did not wanted. And then again for the next item.

Grinding gold (or another currency) is boring and it also devalues the item from a game-play perspective. A person could have earned it with brainless grinding or also with buying gems nothing special really. While with the other way even if gold is a secondary possibility (if an item is not accounted bound) it would be extremely hard and more likely he earned it by killing that boss that drops it. If it’s RNG then every time you kill that boss there is the rush of ‘will it drop’ vs now seeing some number slowly going up until you can find it (no rush, but boring).

So why do I dislike the currency approach? Because it’s boring.

About your points. Your force them to do something they do not like? I don’t like to brainlessly grind gold and thats the best option for getting most things now so thats invalid. (oow and I do like the clockwork tower from a content perspective, would still not like grinding it for gold. But even if I would like to do that it’s not a viable option compared to the labyrinth.) Besides you would be able to put the same reward in lets say 2 different things. While more likely you put another items behind other content. Yes do they want that item then they need to do the clocktower, and do they want something else they need to do some other content. That way there is always something you like locked behind content you like and something behind content you do not like so much. Of course if it’s not account-bound the currency way is still an option, it’s just not the most reliable. Every item have it’s own best way of getting it in stead of all having the same best way of getting it (like now). So if you don’t like that, well then you are out of luck.

So what you name the perfect solution me (and many others) consider boring. And it’s very much link with all the brainless grinding and zerging in this game even more people complain about.

lordkrall.7241:

phys.7689:

amassing currency by repetitive simple behaviors at a very low rate, is not considered to be enjoyable for most people. Or else people would be signing up to work in sweat shops.

Which people quite clearly do

Yeah indeed. Exactly as they are also grinding gold in this game.

Because they feel they need to. To earn the money.

Not because it’s fun. And whats the idea of a game? To work in it or to have fun in it? You see the difference.

phys.7689:

the other, well you can watch netflix while pressing buttons repeatedly i suppose, and hope one day your pressing of 1 wins you the day.

What is exactly how many people play GW2. Even WoodenPatatoes (I guess you could say he is a fan) has talked multiple times how he grinded while watching a movie.

I am very sorry but if people play your game like this then there is something very wrong with your game. It will then be a matter of time before people will think “What the heck am I doing?” and leave.

I you believe RNG is a reward system I want you to work for my company! I pay by flipping a coin on Friday. Heads I pay you your hourly wage, tails I pay you nothing. Great reward, right?

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

amassing currency by repetitive simple behaviors at a very low rate, is not considered to be enjoyable for most people. Or else people would be signing up to work in sweat shops.

Even if you dont get lucky for anything to drop you can probably buy most of the things in just 2 weeks. How is that a very low rate?

By grinding gold. How fun.. And then for the next item and the next and the next and…. And the time obviously depends on the price.

Galen Grey.4709:

I also heard mentioning people selling tot bags (Which I don’t do) earn like 7g per hour, thats very much above the game average per hour has that very low?

People who are grinding gold in the labyrinth you mean.

Galen Grey.4709:

And then you have the drops themselves. while earning the currency to buy stuff you want you may get it for free as well.

Maybe but it’s more likely you earn the gold before that because thats the most viable way for about everything.. grinding gold. You are more likely to get an item you do not like and then sell it for gold. Besides most items drop from the bags so to get it to drop you need to open them. Thats why people are paying money from them (they grindind) in hopes of getting the drop. And other people are selling the bags in a way to grind gold to buy the items.

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

Galen Grey.4709:

phys.7689:

amassing currency by repetitive simple behaviors at a very low rate, is not considered to be enjoyable for most people. Or else people would be signing up to work in sweat shops.

Even if you dont get lucky for anything to drop you can probably buy most of the things in just 2 weeks. How is that a very low rate?

I also heard mentioning people selling tot bags (Which I dont do) earn like 7g per hour, thats very much above the game average per hour has that very low?

And then you have the drops themselves. while earning the currency to buy stuff you want you may get it for free as well.

I am not sure which one of these compares with a sweat shop analogy to be honest

if i told you i would give you a drawing of your charachter(lets say i sell these for 60 bucks), but you have to click the microsoft button on your desktop and close the window for 3 hours a day for 2 weeks, to me that would be a pretty low rate.
essentially, that 42 hours of monotonus activity for a 60 dollar value. 1.42 dollars per hour.

you could do boring repetive task for 7 gold an hour, and get what you want for 290 gold in 2 weeks, or you can spend twenty one dollars worth of work (1-3 hours).
that is a low rate.

7 gold an hour is like 60 cents an hour.
that is sweat shop rates.

Okey let me give you a different perspective on this.

You can give as many perspectives on it as you want but the fact is that at the end of the day this is considered very boring by many people.

lordkrall.7241:

Astralporing.1957:

Nobody wants to work in a sweat shop. It’s just some people are forced to do it, because they have no alternative. I’m pretty sure, they don’t consider it fun.

Of course there are people that wants to do it as well. There are people for everything after all.

And to be fair much of this post could be applied to more or less any work. You are after all forced to get money in order to survive and so on.

You see what you did there?

You compare this GAME to forces work. And that comparison is not so strange because the currency grind in GW2 does work exactly that way except it’s not forced but it is the only really viable option.

The problem here is that if a game looks like work it’s bad!

A game should be fun, that’s why it’s a game.

Rasimir.6239:

phys.7689:

People have opened 10k-27k trick or treat bags, and not gonna the rare drops.

Everyone keeps quoting the people that have opened high numbers of bags without mini, but nobody quotes the people that have opened less than a stack or two and got the mini …

What I’d really be interested in is the amount of bags opened total across all servers, and the amount of minis found total compared to that. Unfortunately, only ANet has those numbers, and I doubt they’d ever release them. It’s the only real indication if the chance works out the way ANet envisioned it, no amount of anecdotal evidence on the forums can come close to that.

No it’s not the only real way. What you should ask yourself. Can you really directly work towards the item you desire in a viable way, or is grinding gold always the better option. Everybody who has played the game for some time knows the last is true. That means that the reward system is bad and then the exact drop is not important to know.

MMO will always be like that. They can’t produce fresh new content that will give you good amount of gold as fast as the players will be able to go through it. And remember that GW2 don’t have a monthly fee, meaning that if not enough people buy gems, then they won’t have as much staff to create new content.

That’s a huge paradox of MMORPG. A lot of people that play these games, want to play it almost everyday. But if you play it several hours per day, you will burn through content really fast and end up with grinding gold to get other stuff.

Roybe.5896:

I you believe RNG is a reward system I want you to work for my company! I pay by flipping a coin on Friday. Heads I pay you your hourly wage, tails I pay you nothing. Great reward, right?

You do realize the gold grinding is also mainly based on RNG right? The fact that it grantees a stable income in the game is because of the high numbers of drops what then makes for a stable average number. (Thats how averages work).

And again there is somebody comparing it to work. I have see so many people make comparisons to work in these forums for a long time. Usually in a way to try and defend it. Apparently not seeing that the fact that you can compare a game to a job is a negative and so in stead of defending it you are proving the point against it.

Thaddeus.4891:

MMO will always be like that. They can’t produce fresh new content that will give you good amount of gold as fast as the players will be able to go through it. And remember that GW2 don’t have a monthly fee, meaning that if not enough people buy gems, then they won’t have as much staff to create new content.

That’s a huge paradox of MMORPG. A lot of people that play these games, want to play it almost everyday. But if you play it several hours per day, you will burn through content really fast and end up with grinding gold to get other stuff.

I don’t complain about the amount of gold. They might remove most gold rewards from the game if it’s up to me. What I would however like is the ability to directly work towards an item I like.

Rasimir.6239:

phys.7689:

People have opened 10k-27k trick or treat bags, and not gonna the rare drops.

What I’d really be interested in is the amount of bags opened total across all servers, and the amount of minis found total compared to that. Unfortunately, only ANet has those numbers, and I doubt they’d ever release them. It’s the only real indication if the chance works out the way ANet envisioned it, no amount of anecdotal evidence on the forums can come close to that.

I am certain it is a beautiful Normal Distribution curve! The problem with RNG is that:

1. Humans cannot tell if RNG is ‘tight’ or ‘loose’. Las Vegas has studied this and realized they could tighten up all the RNG slot machines because people could not tell the difference, so it was a bonus to the bottom line ot make them tighter, soince there was no down side repercussions. This was an ancillary discussion on this NPR show…[http://technation.podomatic.com/entry/2014-10-23T05_07_09-07_00]

2. RNG in MMO’s has become the de facto ‘reward’ system. Unfortunately, the only thing that is the reward in this system is the reinforcment of the brain’s dopamine based reward system.

Personally I see this as a problem of desire creation within a player base. Game devs want to create a strong desire in people to keep the player engaged enough to continue to buy their product. They can do this with either ‘good’ game design or ‘bad’ game design.

Good game design would be creating desire by adding new stories, content, game modes, strong characters, etc.

Bad game design is anything that is trying to utilize the more base motives of people. The easiest thing to program for is accessing the pathways of the brain that lead to addictive problems for those with a propensity to them, the brains natural reward pathway. Gambling type activities do this quite easily. The cycle of expectation, exhilaration, and payoff is quite compelling.

Devata.6589:

Thaddeus.4891:

MMO will always be like that. They can’t produce fresh new content that will give you good amount of gold as fast as the players will be able to go through it. And remember that GW2 don’t have a monthly fee, meaning that if not enough people buy gems, then they won’t have as much staff to create new content.

That’s a huge paradox of MMORPG. A lot of people that play these games, want to play it almost everyday. But if you play it several hours per day, you will burn through content really fast and end up with grinding gold to get other stuff.

I don’t complain about the amount of gold. They might remove most gold rewards from the game if it’s up to me. What I would however like is the ability to directly work towards an item I like.

The only reason everything is based on gold is the gold → gem exchange, so people can get gem store items without paying real money. As long as the only way to get gems is money and gold, gold will be the dominant currency in the game.

Devata.6589:

Roybe.5896:

I you believe RNG is a reward system I want you to work for my company! I pay by flipping a coin on Friday. Heads I pay you your hourly wage, tails I pay you nothing. Great reward, right?

You do realize the gold grinding is also mainly based on RNG right? The fact that it grantees a stable income in the game is because of the high numbers of drops what then makes for a stable average number. (Thats how averages work).

And again there is somebody comparing it to work. I have see so many people make comparisons to work in these forums for a long time. Usually in a way to try and defend it. Apparently not seeing that the fact that you can compare a game to a job is a negative and so in stead of defending it you are proving the point against it.

The reason a game like this is getting compared to work, isn’t because it is work like in its gameplay (no one wants to play a game that’s work), it’s because the reward systems are expected to be related to the way employment is expected to be rewarding. You do something for x hours you expect x rewards. You are skillful at something you expect x% better rewards for those skills.

To put this in a different light, football players in the NFL base their pay on relative performance. X player has better capabilities than y player so they expect better rewards from the system.

Unfortunately, RNG appears to do this. however, it does not reward for skill or time played. The player falsely attributes RNG to this. Your chance of a drop never changes from roll to roll. It’s always the same.

Devata.6589:

Nice story however I talked about working towards the items in the game. Not trading it for another item (what you hole story is about). I kill a boss and he drops the reward …

When you’re choosing to buy it off TP thats exactly what you’re doing trading one item for another using currency as a proxy.

Devata.6589:

Grinding gold (or another currency) is boring

The way I see it its grinding thats boring. Now Ironically its actually currencies that enable me to avoid that grind completely by allowing me to choose the content I want to play to earn whatever reward I am after rather then forcing me to repeat a specific content an ungodly amount of times to get it.

As for devaluating the rewards you got a point there partially. Currency might be devaluating the perception of a reward because person X might think big deal s/he took out his/her credit spend a fortune and got his/her legendary with no effort. If however I actually got the stuff for it all by myself I will still feel proud of my achievement, it wouldnt have been devaluated for me.

There are three ways you can go to earn rewards. Do it the proper way (kill the boss for the drop), Farm the gold to outright buy it, or play regular content and earn enough to buy it. Option 3 is just as satisfying as option 1 in my opinion even more if you consider you’d avoided killing the boss a bunch of times that can feel grindy. there will be no devaluation there for the player actually getting the reward.

Devata.6589:

So why do I dislike the currency approach? Because it’s boring.

Why is playing the game boring? Remember you dont get currency just by farming! you dont have to spend from dusk till dawn in a champion train to buy whatever you’re after! You can play whatever content you choose which includes doing the actual content that drops that reward!

Devata.6589:

About your points. Your force them to do something they do not like? I don’t like to brainlessly grind gold and thats the best option for getting most things now so thats invalid.

I dont know how to put this, I must have wrote and deleted this line a million times. Hmm lets put it this way, have you ever considered that what you think is best option is actually the worst option? What makes an option, the best option? seems to me for most people that answer is simply “the quickest way” to me it is a much more holistic answer. It has to also include fun, it has to include a good feeling etc.. Yeah farming gold will undoubtly get you there first but it will not be enjoyable like you said and seriously I wouldnt feel good about getting a reward that way anyway so to me thats the worst option not the best option. Sometimes taking the longest road is actually the better option! we do that in the real world often too. How many times do we take the longest route rather then the shortest just to avoid traffic and have a much more pleasant drive even though with traffic and all you’d probably get there faster using the shortest route? why isnt that applicable to gaming too for so many people?

Devata.6589:

Of course if it’s not account-bound the currency way is still an option, it’s just not the most reliable.

Is that how it is now? Lets take zuzu for example you can do clocktower and you can get zuzu to drop from there. Its actually the same with any item in the game. Every item you can buy drops from somewhere! but once you put it for sale currency will automatically become the quickest way to get it unless you somehow stop all farming because by its very nature farming skews the rate of acquisition. Lets not forget Farmers make 10x – 12x the currency that playing regular content gives that will of course include going after the item itself.

Devata.6589:

So what you name the perfect solution me (and many others) consider boring. And it’s very much link with all the brainless grinding and zerging in this game even more people complain about.

because you and other people refuse to listen. Gw2 isnt a race to a reward. By focusing on cosmetics it made okey if you get a reward in a month, 6 months or even in a couple of years. Its okey if you dont get a reward at all. Whats important is to put the game first and reward second. The whole point of currency is it allows you to play the content you enjoy, the content you’d feel like playing at the moment but its being twisted into a dark horrible version. Instead of embracing the gift of content freedom some people are being shackled by currency into playing content they actually hate just cause it gets them to their reward the fastest. thats the true issue here in my opinion not being given multiple options how to approach a goal. Since when is having options instead of 1 forced path a bad thing?

Nick.6972:

Shpongle.6025:

fellyn.5083:

What GW2 needs is elite areas like GW1 had.

Underworld
Fissure of Woe
Realm of Anguish
The Deep
Urgoz’s Warren
Slavers Exile

And so on. These areas can be rewarding and fun.

But that takes quite a lot of effort. So lets revamp how people purchase gems to make it more profitable for us.

We already have that. It’s called FOTM lvl 50

You’re right. Let me roll a Fractal scale 50 and get another useless ring I will never need.
And maybe, just maybe when I reach 100 000 fractal runs I’ll finally receive my Fractal Sword I’ve been trying to get since 2012 November.

Hey, I have a Fractal Sword skin, too bad I can’t trade it, and even worse I couldn’t trade it with my party when it dropped

I’m still looking for a Fractal Dagger skin, I’m sure I’ll have it by 2024, running fractals daily (maybe I’m optimistic, no?)

As for GW1 “elite areas”:

I used to run them with Heroes, Deep and Urgoz needed at least 2 players (to make a 12-person party), but the others were doable solo with Heroes. I’ve done everything else in GW1 solo, except for Duncan (final boss in Slaver’s Exile) and that blasted Foundry of Failed Creations in DoA, I never managed to solo those parts

Once you run them to death, they became easy and the word “elite” hardly applies anymore. I remember running AC for the first time, or trying to solo Lupi for the first time, that was some “elite” difficulty, now it’s considerably easier.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Nice story however I talked about working towards the items in the game. Not trading it for another item (what you hole story is about). I kill a boss and he drops the reward …

When you’re choosing to buy it off TP thats exactly what you’re doing trading one item for another using currency as a proxy.

Like I said. Thats exactly what I NOT want to do. I am talking about getting a reward from the content, not! by trading it.

Galen Grey.4709:

The way I see it its grinding thats boring. Now Ironically its actually currencies that enable me to avoid that grind completely by allowing me to choose the content I want to play to earn whatever reward I am after rather then forcing me to repeat a specific content an ungodly amount of times to get it.

Let’s not fool each other or other. We all know thats not how it works except if the few gold grinds in this game (champion, world-bosses, now the labyrinth or dungeon rushing) are what you like. Not to mention that the reward drop does add extras to the content. The “will it drop rush” I talked about before.

Galen Grey.4709:

Why is playing the game boring? Remember you dont get currency just by farming! you dont have to spend from dusk till dawn in a champion train to buy whatever you’re after! You can play whatever content you choose which includes doing the actual content that drops that reward!

One of the things I like is going directly after items. Thats what I liked doing in other mmo’s. I want that cool item but I need recipe x. That drops from that mob in that cave over there. Ok let’s go there. Later I want that mini, that is a quest reward for quest y. Let’s go do that. Then I wanted a mount, that can drop in dungeon Z, lets go do dungeon Z. That is how I like to play. That is the content I like to do!

Galen Grey.4709:

I dont know how to put this, I must have wrote and deleted this line a million times. Hmm lets put it this way, have you ever considered that what you think is best option is actually the worst option?

Let me give the example why it’s the worst option. Let’s say you want a specific skin in this item that drops from a champion bag at an extremely low rate. Then working directly working towards it is by farming those bags. But you likely have earned to gold to buy it by doing so before the item drops. So going for that item is the worst way.

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Grinding gold (or another currency) is boring

The way I see it its grinding thats boring. Now Ironically its actually currencies that enable me to avoid that grind completely by allowing me to choose the content I want to play to earn whatever reward I am after rather then forcing me to repeat a specific content an ungodly amount of times to get it.

And here is the problem. Currencies enable you to play the content you want, but when you realise a labyrinth or champ train or eotm or easy dungeon farmer is earning far more than you do then you can see the problem with currencies.

Harder content should have higher rewards, right now, the easier and more boring some content is, the better rewards (in currency) it offers.

Running higher difficulty dungeons is hardly worth the effort, since running multiple easy mode ones will yield better rewards in the end, same goes with other activities as well. If these currencies were offering balanced rewards, based on the time/effort needed to fill them, then maybe the currency system wouldn’t be bad.

Unfortunately, the reward distribution in this game isn’t good at all, the gold/minute values of various activities should be completely different than how they are now.

So, instead of grinding and spending an ungodly amount of time on activities you don’t like, you are forced to spend triple-ungodly amount of time on activities that you find more interesting. Even the best activity becomes boring after so much repetition.

Devata.6589:

By grinding gold. How fun.. And then for the next item and the next and the next and…. And the time obviously depends on the price.

You’re fixated on gold I’ve been playing since day 1 and seriously the amount of stuff I got with gold is like really small. I always prefer and do go after rewards directly and many times I get them. I dont know why you who advocate going for stuff directly are having so many issues.

Devata.6589:

People who are grinding gold in the labyrinth you mean.

Yes people who choose to grind gold in the labirinth. Like I said in that post or the one before it I didnt sell as single ToT bag and am going for the rewards directly. Hex Outfit and Zuzu I got already. I also have collected enough candy corn and enough skulls/fangs to get the blood prince and carlotta but will wait till the end just in case they drop. If I could get the gift of souls to drop I’d be the most happy Gw2 player ever but I am not spending money to increase my chances. I like to earn my rewards doing the content. Also even though I have no doubt the labyrinth is the fastest way to earn ToT bags I still do the other halloween content because like I said first priority in any game should be to do what feels fun at the moment. Would be nice of Gwynefyrdd where to drop as well but again I am not buying ToT bags to increase my chances.

Devata.6589:

Maybe but it’s more likely you earn the gold before that because thats the most viable way for about everything.. grinding gold.

Its not the most viable way, its the fastest way. For me its not the most viable way I would be bored and quit the game. You refuse to accept it but farming gold is a choice not the only option.

Devata.6589:

You are more likely to get an item you do not like and then sell it for gold.

Thats fine and okey. Exchange an item you got that you dont want for an item you actually want is a good thing.

Devata.6589:

Besides most items drop from the bags so to get it to drop you need to open them. Thats why people are paying money from them (they grindind) in hopes of getting the drop. And other people are selling the bags in a way to grind gold to buy the items.

They could have also just played the game and earn the rewards. Thats what I did and already nearly got all I need to get all I want. No grinding, no buying of stuff, no selling of stuff. just plain old playing the game just the way you want to all it takes is ignore the short cut because it just kills all the fun. Its like the good old day cheat codes. I never understood just why people played through a game in god mode!

maddoctor.2738:

And here is the problem. Currencies enable you to play the content you want, but when you realise a labyrinth or champ train or eotm or easy dungeon farmer is earning far more than you do then you can see the problem with currencies.

Harder content should have higher rewards, right now, the easier and more boring some content is, the better rewards (in currency) it offers.

I understand this but whats the solution for it? ban farming? remove items tradability? Put in brutal DR? Each of these would take from the game more then it adds to it! and why? because people cannot do what they enjoy without someone holding a gun to them metaphorically speaking of course?

maddoctor.2738:

Running higher difficulty dungeons is hardly worth the effort, since running multiple easy mode ones will yield better rewards in the end, same goes with other activities as well. If these currencies were offering balanced rewards, based on the time/effort needed to fill them, then maybe the currency system wouldn’t be bad.

Again whats the solution? reduce the rewards of the easy ones ? increase the reward of the kittenes? because at the end of the day both option will cause major issues.

maddoctor.2738:

Unfortunately, the reward distribution in this game isn’t good at all, the gold/minute values of various activities should be completely different than how they are now.

So, instead of grinding and spending an ungodly amount of time on activities you don’t like, you are forced to spend triple-ungodly amount of time on activities that you find more interesting. Even the best activity becomes boring after so much repetition.

The problem is farming thats what’s upsetting the balance. but really what can be done. Farmers should be allowed to play how they enjoy as much as anyone else. It wouldnt be fair to tell people sorry you can only run a dungeon once just because if you run it more then 3 times it will make this harder dungeon reward feel less rewarding even though its actually 3x as rewarding as the easy one. You cant tell people hey sorry you’ll get no rewards after killing 10 champions in a day simply because you’re making killing champions feel more rewarding then killing a world boss.

Even though it may seem the easiest solution you cannot boost the reward on the harder task either cause you’ll just have crazy inflation. If killing a world boss rewards as much as killing 100 champions or finishing a hard dungeon rewards enough as doing 15x easy paths then what about players who just dont like either thing? What about the new player who needs to engage in a market controlled by players who now have massive amounts of gold? There is no easy solution for a problem that ulitmately doesnt really exist. You want to enjoy a hard dungeon, yes you may probably make more money running the easier ones but you will not have as much fun so why not do the hard dungeon anyway?

Galen Grey.4709:

I always prefer and do go after rewards directly and many times I get them. I dont know why you who advocate going for stuff directly are having so many issues.

Lol who are you trying to fool here? Yourself?

Galen Grey.4709:

“They could have also just played the game and earn the rewards. Thats what I did and already nearly got all I need to get all I want. "

Funny, I have been playing this game since pre-release but for most I would like going directly for it was not an option.

Let’s see, what in the Halloween patch can you work directly towards without grinding a currency. The weapon skins? No. The mini’s? Of the 6 mini’s? Available 1 of them? Still not with specific content but with achievements. The skin you get in the JP Yes. The Toy? No. Of the two availible outfits you can earn one with the achievements (well yearn earn currency lol with it and then you can buy it). The weapon skins from 2012? no.

You must be very lucky if those items you wanted where all available to work towards directly.

Devata.6589:

… Lots of stuff I am skipping over cause its already been discussed many multiple of times but if you want me to reply to something specifically let me know not ignoring or avoiding just dont wanna get locked in a debate circle …

Let me give the example why it’s the worst option. Let’s say you want a specific skin in this item that drops from a champion bag at an extremely low rate. Then working directly working towards it is by farming those bags. But you likely have earned to gold to buy it by doing so before the item drops. So going for that item is the worst way.

Champion bag skins are a bit of a catch 22 true. Getting the item directly is farming just as much as getting the gold for it. But luckly we have the 3rd option, the 3rd option I’ve been advocating so much, currency as it is intended to be. Your nice weapons skin that drops from the champion bag costs dont know say 20g. You currently have 200 gold but we’re not going to outright buy it that would be boring. We’re going to earn 20g and buy it once we have 220g. I personally am a dynamic events person so I am going with playing in the open world. Strickly speaking we need 400 dynamic events to earn 20g but we can cut that down as until we earn out skin we’re going to sell stuff we earn even though generally I keep the mats for my crafting. That will probably cut the events needed by about 1/3 and not counting the mats you gather along the way and sell. All in all we’ll need approximately 280 events. Will do close to 25 events per day and it will take me 2 weeks to earn that 20g and buy that skin. I may take a break do a dungeon, a fractal may a few jumping puzzles and why not perhaps try to kill a couple of champions and see if I Get lucky and it drops. At the end of the day whatever i’ll still get closer. At the end of 2 weeks I’ll be happy because I did an effort and it feels I earn the skin. I still played the stuff I would have played had I not set my eyes on that skin. I didnt have to do any mindless grinding. I got the skin I wanted.

Sure if I farmed I could have got that skin in 2 – 3hrs instead of 2 weeks but what would that have got me? since I like open world stuff after I got the skin by farming gold now that I dont have a reward to strive for I will spend the next 2 weeks doing open world stuff with my new skin wishing I could earn my skin doing open world stuff rather then boring gold farms probably which ironically I already could do!

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

I always prefer and do go after rewards directly and many times I get them. I dont know why you who advocate going for stuff directly are having so many issues.

Lol who are you trying to fool here? Yourself?

How am I fooling myself. Thats what I do and I enjoy the game!

Galen Grey.4709:

“They could have also just played the game and earn the rewards. Thats what I did and already nearly got all I need to get all I want. "

Devata.6589:

Funny, I have been playing this game since pre-release but for most I would like going directly for it was not an option.

Let’s see, what in the Halloween patch can you work directly towards without grinding a currency. The weapon skins? No.

Yep Like I said “If I could get the gift of souls to drop I’d be the most happy Gw2 player ever but I am not spending money to increase my chances.” that is working towards the weapon skin. I am sure 99% it will not drop but I dont care If it doesnt drop now no problem I will just wait to get my 100 charged lodestones it will take a while cause I dont run COE much but it will happen eventually, I will have the crossing.

Devata.6589:

The mini’s? Of the 6 mini’s? Available 1 of them? Still not with specific content but with achievements. The skin you get in the JP Yes. The Toy? No. Of the two availible outfits you can earn one with the achievements (well yearn earn currency lol with it and then you can buy it). The weapon skins from 2012? no.

You must be very lucky if those items you wanted where all available to work towards directly.

By the end of this halloween I will have earned 4 minis doing nothing more then playing the halloween event. If I am lucky I will also have the other 5th one drop on me but thats asking 2 much.

What toy?

Would it really be better if the achievement gave you the outfit directly? and if you hated it and wanted the minis instead what then?

as for the 2012 weapon skins its too early to say. I guess you are aware they’re in a lottery that skritt is running. I got 7 tickets so far drop on me. Maybe it will be enough to get one or maybe not. To be honest the only halloween skin that interests me is the crossing. The chainsaw greatsword and the scyte I’d use but will not loose any sleep if I dont get them. The rest I’d sell and use the income to increase my progress towards the crossing.

So yeah I doing direct progress towards all the stuff you mentioned without going through gold at all. I am 100% sure I will not manage everything but so what ? what would be the value of stuff if you can earn absolutely everything?

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

… Lots of stuff I am skipping over cause its already been discussed many multiple of times but if you want me to reply to something specifically let me know not ignoring or avoiding just dont wanna get locked in a debate circle …

Let me give the example why it’s the worst option. Let’s say you want a specific skin in this item that drops from a champion bag at an extremely low rate. Then working directly working towards it is by farming those bags. But you likely have earned to gold to buy it by doing so before the item drops. So going for that item is the worst way.

Champion bag skins are a bit of a catch 22 true. Getting the item directly is farming just as much as getting the gold for it. But luckly we have the 3rd option, the 3rd option I’ve been advocating so much, currency as it is intended to be. Your nice weapons skin that drops from the champion bag costs dont know say 20g. You currently have 200 gold but we’re not going to outright buy it that would be boring. We’re going to earn 20g and buy it once we have 220g. I personally am a dynamic events person so I am going with playing in the open world. Strickly speaking we need 400 dynamic events to earn 20g but we can cut that down as until we earn out skin we’re going to sell stuff we earn even though generally I keep the mats for my crafting. That will probably cut the events needed by about 1/3 and not counting the mats you gather along the way and sell. All in all we’ll need approximately 280 events. Will do close to 25 events per day and it will take me 2 weeks to earn that 20g and buy that skin. I may take a break do a dungeon, a fractal may a few jumping puzzles and why not perhaps try to kill a couple of champions and see if I Get lucky and it drops. At the end of the day whatever i’ll still get closer. At the end of 2 weeks I’ll be happy because I did an effort and it feels I earn the skin. I still played the stuff I would have played had I not set my eyes on that skin. I didnt have to do any mindless grinding. I got the skin I wanted.

Sure if I farmed I could have got that skin in 2 – 3hrs instead of 2 weeks but what would that have got me? since I like open world stuff after I got the skin by farming gold now that I dont have a reward to strive for I will spend the next 2 weeks doing open world stuff with my new skin wishing I could earn my skin doing open world stuff rather then boring gold farms probably which ironically I already could do!

So your solution to the currency grind is… currency grind?

Oow and the stuff I like to do like JP’s don’t earn me a lot of money. What I also like is WvW but then mainly staying in a keep upgrading it and defending it. Running with the zerg would make me money, upgrading and defending a keep cost me money. The other thing I like to do is going directly after those rewards but we already concluded that was not really possible (in this case).

Galen Grey.4709:

Devata.6589:

Galen Grey.4709:

I always prefer and do go after rewards directly and many times I get them. I dont know why you who advocate going for stuff directly are having so many issues.

Lol who are you trying to fool here? Yourself?

How am I fooling myself. Thats what I do and I enjoy the game!

Galen Grey.4709:

“They could have also just played the game and earn the rewards. Thats what I did and already nearly got all I need to get all I want. "

Devata.6589:

Funny, I have been playing this game since pre-release but for most I would like going directly for it was not an option.

Let’s see, what in the Halloween patch can you work directly towards without grinding a currency. The weapon skins? No.

Yep Like I said “If I could get the gift of souls to drop I’d be the most happy Gw2 player ever but I am not spending money to increase my chances.” that is working towards the weapon skin. I am sure 99% it will not drop but I dont care If it doesnt drop now no problem I will just wait to get my 100 charged lodestones it will take a while cause I dont run COE much but it will happen eventually, I will have the crossing.

Devata.6589:

The mini’s? Of the 6 mini’s? Available 1 of them? Still not with specific content but with achievements. The skin you get in the JP Yes. The Toy? No. Of the two availible outfits you can earn one with the achievements (well yearn earn currency lol with it and then you can buy it). The weapon skins from 2012? no.

You must be very lucky if those items you wanted where all available to work towards directly.

By the end of this halloween I will have earned 4 minis doing nothing more then playing the halloween event. If I am lucky I will also have the other 5th one drop on me but thats asking 2 much.

What toy?

Would it really be better if the achievement gave you the outfit directly? and if you hated it and wanted the minis instead what then?

as for the 2012 weapon skins its too early to say. I guess you are aware they’re in a lottery that skritt is running. I got 7 tickets so far drop on me. Maybe it will be enough to get one or maybe not. To be honest the only halloween skin that interests me is the crossing. The chainsaw greatsword and the scyte I’d use but will not loose any sleep if I dont get them. The rest I’d sell and use the income to increase my progress towards the crossing.

So yeah I doing direct progress towards all the stuff you mentioned without going through gold at all. I am 100% sure I will not manage everything but so what ? what would be the value of stuff if you can earn absolutely everything?

You earned 4 mini’s? What 4 exactly? 3 of the ones I referred to are only available in the cash-shop.

The riding broom toy. I Counted the achievements as a way to get them.

I also mentioned this years skins.

For the 2012 skins you are grinding tickets (thats a currency) so no you are not working directly towards it. Like I said before, who are you fooling.

You progress towards them with currency yes, you don’t work directly towards them.

I never said you had to get them all. That would also not be the case if you worked directly towards them.. what you are not doing, you are grinding currency to get most of them.

Yargesh.4965:

In gambling wars 1 everyone had a gaurenteed drop of all items. In gambling wars 1 the items all gave a ton of gold because they where just so darn good and people would pay anything at all in gambling wars 1. Oh the glory days of gambling wars 1.

Funnily enough, I never really considered GW1 too much of a grind when going for all the cosmetic items. Nor did I feel that there was a horrible amount of RNG attached to most of the content. Sure, there was some, but not to the extent as here in GW2. Mini polar bear excluded.

Some people are impatient, so they choose to whip out the Amex Black and buy gems to convert to gold. This is a byproduct rather than the main design intention. The design intent of making things accessible via gold is to allow players to play any content they want and sooner or later get items they want. It’s that same impatience (manifesting in those who don’t want to pay cash) that “forces” people to repeat the most lucrative content.

The notable exceptions to this are the “Catch 22’s” on items whose drop rate is so low that the sellers can jack the prices up, as with some Precursor weapons and possibly some other very rare items. However, all games have items that are very hard to get, so hard that not everyone will get them. Usually, this is due to inaccessible content or to low-chance RNG. GW2 has that stuff, also. It’s just that it also has a lot of items attainable via gold.

phys.7689:

Sorry, i would rather struggle for years to beat a hard dungeon 20 times to get an item, than struggle for years killing non stop waves of too weak enemies for the the same reward. One you can aim for, improve, learn and each time you succeed you make notable progress.

I am of two minds here. See, on the one hand I’d agree it’s a better arrangement than “pure RNG”. It gives you a feeling you’re going to eventually get there if you work hard enough, versus merely getting lucky enough.

. . . of course, there’s the other side. If you can cleanly do it, get the item within a few tries, why would you go back? Assuming, of course, the fun of it isn’t figuring into the equation. (After all, people love to throw around things about Skinner conditioning pretending to be “fun”, so it’s arguable we can’t trust “but it’s fun” as an excuse to repeat things.)

I don’t know. Honestly, I’m looking right into this situation right now – I can’t beat the Clock Tower and have hit a point where I’m no longer making progress on the puzzle. I also can’t beat the Aetherblade jumping puzzle and then get that dive. I make it a little farther each time but the need to start all over again killed my desire to do either. I mostly am just waiting to get a couple people who can just portal me up to the Aetherblade goggles so I can keep trying.

the other, well you can watch netflix while pressing buttons repeatedly i suppose, and hope one day your pressing of 1 wins you the day.

Yeah, no. I can’t do that. It really messes with my connection when I stream video and play GW2. Mostly because two rooms over my brother is playing League, and in another part of the house the parents are streaming things from their computers to the television, so the network tends to get a little . . . testy . . . sometimes.

IPhyton.2348:

laokoko.7403:

You dont’ have to gamble. You can just buy it from the trading post.

I think the problem is it is just too expensive that some people felt it is unobtainable.

Well the problem is there is no content to earn the gold. Note I said content not mindless zerging or dungeon spamming both of which is not why I play the game.
Is it too much to ask to have fresh and fun content that you can earn gold from?
This whole gems conversion issue makes it clear this game is just being milked for as long as it will last.

If you got an idea on pulling it off, I am honestly all ears about it. As for the whole gem conversion thing, my opinion on it is that it was convenient (for me, at least) so that I could be spared the trouble of punching a couple of keys. I would prefer having a custom amount to go with that though to balance it out.

IndigoSundown.5419:

The design intent of making things accessible via gold is to allow players to play any content they want and sooner or later get items they want.

If that was the goal simply making many of the items not account bound but still having them in the game behind specific content would do the trick. They would still end up on the TP while in less quantities and more expensive. But it would be an alternative way to get them. So no it looks more like the design intent is more gem sales.

Nonetheless, the current approach isn’t very fun. And that there is some content that is to hard for you to get.. Well if they put in all rewards like that, everybody walks against something like that. Managing to then do it anyway is then only extra rewarding. And maybe if people are not good enough to get something they shouldn’t get it. That also adds value / prestige to an item.

SAB did do that very well. (Just as the original Molten Alliance dungeon) and I don’t think it’s a coincident they where both so popular.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

phys.7689:

Sorry, i would rather struggle for years to beat a hard dungeon 20 times to get an item, than struggle for years killing non stop waves of too weak enemies for the the same reward. One you can aim for, improve, learn and each time you succeed you make notable progress.

I am of two minds here. See, on the one hand I’d agree it’s a better arrangement than “pure RNG”. It gives you a feeling you’re going to eventually get there if you work hard enough, versus merely getting lucky enough.

. . . of course, there’s the other side. If you can cleanly do it, get the item within a few tries, why would you go back? Assuming, of course, the fun of it isn’t figuring into the equation. (After all, people love to throw around things about Skinner conditioning pretending to be “fun”, so it’s arguable we can’t trust “but it’s fun” as an excuse to repeat things.)

I don’t know. Honestly, I’m looking right into this situation right now – I can’t beat the Clock Tower and have hit a point where I’m no longer making progress on the puzzle. I also can’t beat the Aetherblade jumping puzzle and then get that dive. I make it a little farther each time but the need to start all over again killed my desire to do either. I mostly am just waiting to get a couple people who can just portal me up to the Aetherblade goggles so I can keep trying.

the other, well you can watch netflix while pressing buttons repeatedly i suppose, and hope one day your pressing of 1 wins you the day.

Yeah, no. I can’t do that. It really messes with my connection when I stream video and play GW2. Mostly because two rooms over my brother is playing League, and in another part of the house the parents are streaming things from their computers to the television, so the network tends to get a little . . . testy . . . sometimes.

you make the content actually rewarding to do well even after you get the main item. Lets say you could choose between the special item, and say a laurel, or crafting bag or a token towards an account bound random rare skin you havent unlocked.
perhaps a weapon you can name, select the stats and upgrade to ascended stats eventually

perhaps completing it adds to world totals that unlock something for the entire world. There are many ways to reward gameplay.

Devata.6589:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The design intent of making things accessible via gold is to allow players to play any content they want and sooner or later get items they want.

If that was the goal simply making many of the items not account bound but still having them in the game behind specific content would do the trick. They would still end up on the TP while in less quantities and more expensive. But it would be an alternative way to get them. So no it looks more like the design intent is more gem sales.

Stick to a subject, please. You kitten about things being attainable for gold, then when I talk about that, you respond by kittening about stuff being account bound. If some of the account bound stuff was sellable, then you’d need more gold in order to buy them. Holy circular argument, Batman!

Also, many Account Bound items are earned in game. So, your “point” is just another example of your anti-gem store bias.

Galen Grey.4709:

The problem is farming thats what’s upsetting the balance. but really what can be done. Farmers should be allowed to play how they enjoy as much as anyone else. It wouldnt be fair to tell people sorry you can only run a dungeon once just because if you run it more then 3 times it will make this harder dungeon reward feel less rewarding even though its actually 3x as rewarding as the easy one. You cant tell people hey sorry you’ll get no rewards after killing 10 champions in a day simply because you’re making killing champions feel more rewarding then killing a world boss.

Even though it may seem the easiest solution you cannot boost the reward on the harder task either cause you’ll just have crazy inflation. If killing a world boss rewards as much as killing 100 champions or finishing a hard dungeon rewards enough as doing 15x easy paths then what about players who just dont like either thing? What about the new player who needs to engage in a market controlled by players who now have massive amounts of gold? There is no easy solution for a problem that ulitmately doesnt really exist. You want to enjoy a hard dungeon, yes you may probably make more money running the easier ones but you will not have as much fun so why not do the hard dungeon anyway?

What do you mean with “what about players who just don’t like either thing?”.

Right now you can ask the exact same question, "what about players who DON’T like farming in the LAB, blobbing in EOTM, farming the easy mode dungeons or porting from World boss to World boss? No care for those right? Those who do proper WvW, or PVP in 1000+ positions, or do high level FotM, or ORGANIZE Teq/Wurm kills are now the ones that don’t like the current farming/grinding system but you don’t seem to care about them at all.

And those people who want more rewards for doing harder content, now need to engage in a market controlled by players who now have massive amounts of gold because they do their mindless afk farming.

See, what you are saying might be a problem with increasing the rewards of harder content, is EXACTLY what is happening right now. However, if the system favors harder content, then all types of players can “compete”. Those who do the harder content do that and get rewarded, and those who have the infinite time to grind and farm can do that too and stay competitive with each other. Now, that’s impossible as only time spent farming matters.

Although you say increasing the rewards for harder content is going to cause problems, the same problems are affecting the game now, and I don’t think the problem will increase, but it will decrease, a lot.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

IndigoSundown.5419:

The design intent of making things accessible via gold is to allow players to play any content they want and sooner or later get items they want.

If that was the goal simply making many of the items not account bound but still having them in the game behind specific content would do the trick. They would still end up on the TP while in less quantities and more expensive. But it would be an alternative way to get them. So no it looks more like the design intent is more gem sales.

Stick to a subject, please. You kitten about things being attainable for gold, then when I talk about that, you respond by kittening about stuff being account bound. If some of the account bound stuff was sellable, then you’d need more gold in order to buy them. Holy circular argument, Batman!

Also, many Account Bound items are earned in game. So, your “point” is just another example of your anti-gem store bias.

It is the subject. Having currency as the only really viable option is what makes everything such a boring gold grind. That is what I complained about.

Then you come and tell how great it is to buy it with gold because then you can do whatever you like to earn it.

Then I say that as long as those items are not account bound you still have that option while you also have the option to work directly towards it.

I don’t kitten about things being attainable for gold I ‘kitten’ about that being the only really viable option making everything a gold-grind.

Is that so hard to understand?

You are right thats it’s likely linked to the gem-store yeah. But the fact is that a lot of people dislike the crrency grind grind grind in this game to earn the rewards. If you don’t want to or can’t see that, that’s then maybe your GW2 bias? (Or are all those other people complaining about that (see for example maddoctor’s post before me) also having a anti-cash-shop bias?)

Also consider I am not against these things because I dislike the cash-shop focus but I dislike the cash-shop focus because it results in these sorts of things that I dislike.

Devata.6589:

It is the subject. Having currency as the only really viable option is what makes everything such a boring gold grind. That is what I complained about.

Then you come and tell how great it is to buy it with gold because then you can do whatever you like to earn it.

Then I say that as long as those items are not account bound you still have that option while you also have the option to work directly towards it.

OK, simpler questions. Are you upset about having to spend gold to get some rewards, or not? If you are, how would allowing more items that can be gotten via gold (by removing Account Bound) help? And, for the record, I never said being able to get many items via gold was great, I said it’s an aspect of game design that makes them more accessible.

I don’t kitten about things being attainable for gold I ‘kitten’ about that being the only really viable option making everything a gold-grind.

Is that so hard to understand?

It’s not hard to understand the complaint at all.

You are right thats it’s likely linked to the gem-store yeah.

What is “it?” Pronouns need antecedents in order for your sentences to be understood. I’ve no clue what I’m supposed to have said.

But the fact is that a lot of people dislike the currency grind grind grind in this game to earn the rewards. If you don’t want to or can’t see that, that’s then maybe your GW2 bias?

I am not blind and can understand English, so I can readily see the dislike. I’m not commenting about the dislike — which is a feeling. I’m commenting about the accusations that everything in the game is a cash grab — which is a ludicrous accusation.

(Or are all those other people complaining about that (see for example maddoctor’s post before me) also having a anti-cash-shop bias?)

I have not read enough of maddoctor’s posts to determine whether s/he is demonstrating bias. I know you are.

Also consider I am not against these things because I dislike the cash-shop focus but I dislike the cash-shop focus because it results in these sorts of things that I dislike.

I have no issue with your dislikes and frankly could care less whether the chicken or the egg came first. I have an opinion about your dislikes, but I won’t share that.

I have no issue with you asking for a paid expansion business model. I don’t think ANet will switch business models any more than I think I’ll get what I want. However, you’re free to ask.

However, what I do post in opposition to is when you venture into hypotheses about ANet’s motives. Stay away from the unfounded insinuations about cash grabs and you won’t hear from me.

lordkrall.7241:

….The Labyrinth available right now is a rather good way to get rather much money….

this.

it’s rewarding and isn’t rng-based………you get tons of bags (and mats). you get more than enough candy corn to convert them to “cobs” and buy the new items that the halloween vendor sells.

there will always be some level of rng “gambling” in the gem store/game……they need to make RL money (some people get a thrill out of gambling). it’s only lame when that is the way most of the event rewards are earned.

that isn’t the case here. there are plenty of non-rng rewards that are earned by playing the game.

Relshdan.6854:

lordkrall.7241:

….The Labyrinth available right now is a rather good way to get rather much money….

this.

it’s rewarding and isn’t rng-based………you get tons of bags (and mats). you get more than enough candy corn to convert them to “cobs” and buy the new items that the halloween vendor sells.

there will always be some level of rng “gambling” in the gem store/game……they need to make RL money (some people get a thrill out of gambling). it’s only lame when that is the way most of the event rewards are earned.

that isn’t the case here. there are plenty of non-rng rewards that are earned by playing the game.

It’s still just grinding for currency.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

It is the subject. Having currency as the only really viable option is what makes everything such a boring gold grind. That is what I complained about.

Then you come and tell how great it is to buy it with gold because then you can do whatever you like to earn it.

Then I say that as long as those items are not account bound you still have that option while you also have the option to work directly towards it.

OK, simpler questions. Are you upset about having to spend gold to get some rewards, or not? If you are, how would allowing more items that can be gotten via gold (by removing Account Bound) help? And, for the record, I never said being able to get many items via gold was great, I said it’s an aspect of game design that makes them more accessible.

I don’t kitten about things being attainable for gold I ‘kitten’ about that being the only really viable option making everything a gold-grind.

Is that so hard to understand?

It’s not hard to understand the complaint at all.

You are right thats it’s likely linked to the gem-store yeah.

What is “it?” Pronouns need antecedents in order for your sentences to be understood. I’ve no clue what I’m supposed to have said.

But the fact is that a lot of people dislike the currency grind grind grind in this game to earn the rewards. If you don’t want to or can’t see that, that’s then maybe your GW2 bias?

I am not blind and can understand English, so I can readily see the dislike. I’m not commenting about the dislike — which is a feeling. I’m commenting about the accusations that everything in the game is a cash grab — which is a ludicrous accusation.

(Or are all those other people complaining about that (see for example maddoctor’s post before me) also having a anti-cash-shop bias?)

I have not read enough of maddoctor’s posts to determine whether s/he is demonstrating bias. I know you are.

Also consider I am not against these things because I dislike the cash-shop focus but I dislike the cash-shop focus because it results in these sorts of things that I dislike.

I have no issue with your dislikes and frankly could care less whether the chicken or the egg came first. I have an opinion about your dislikes, but I won’t share that.

I have no issue with you asking for a paid expansion business model. I don’t think ANet will switch business models any more than I think I’ll get what I want. However, you’re free to ask.

However, what I do post in opposition to is when you venture into hypotheses about ANet’s motives. Stay away from the unfounded insinuations about cash grabs and you won’t hear from me.

Them making everything thats also in the game a gold grind to earn cash as motive I can not prove and so you can consider unfounded insinuations or one may name it common sense.

But lets then just take a factual example.

They put a mini in the cash-shop (they do that with many mini’s thats a fact). How can I then get it? There are only 2 options. Buy it with cash or grind gold to then buy it (another fact). So thats not an unfounded insinuations that is a fact where the currency-grind is there directly because of the cash-shop.

Devata.6589:

Them making everything thats also in the game a gold grind to earn cash as motive I can not prove and so you can consider unfounded insinuations or one may name it common sense.

Oh, what about all the things that people complain about being RNG based? Things like Teq and TT drops, TA/AP drops, and all of the weapon skins from champ bags. Everything you want may be in the TP or the gem store, but it does not mean everything is.

But lets then just take a factual example.

They put a mini in the cash-shop (they do that with many mini’s thats a fact). How can I then get it? There are only 2 options. Buy it with cash or grind gold to then buy it (another fact). So thats not an unfounded insinuations that is a fact where the currency-grind is there directly because of the cash-shop.

So a game that is monetized via a cash shop puts things for sale in the cash shop. Oh my, how evil! They’re trying to make money to keep the game and company afloat!

For the record, I didn’t say the insinuation was that there were things in the gem store, I said it was that insinuation you’re making is that the gem store is just a cash grab. If it were just a cash grab there would be no option to get these things by accumulating gold.

You don’t want to play the game to get gold? Don’t. You want to get a mini by doing piece of content X over and over again? Fine, pick content you like and do it over and over again. Once you determine the gold yield, you won’t even have to deal with the evils of RNG.

I know you’d prefer they monetize by box sales of expansions only. Not going to happen. Even the sub games have cash shops, now. The days of games with no cash shop are gone, kaput, finito. You’re … (I was going to say wasting your breath, but I guess in this case it’s ablating your keyboard).

Devata.6589:

Relshdan.6854:

lordkrall.7241:

….The Labyrinth available right now is a rather good way to get rather much money….

this.

it’s rewarding and isn’t rng-based………you get tons of bags (and mats). you get more than enough candy corn to convert them to “cobs” and buy the new items that the halloween vendor sells.

there will always be some level of rng “gambling” in the gem store/game……they need to make RL money (some people get a thrill out of gambling). it’s only lame when that is the way most of the event rewards are earned.

that isn’t the case here. there are plenty of non-rng rewards that are earned by playing the game.

It’s still just grinding for currency.

which has nothing to do with “rng-gambing”….or the thread topic. thanks for nothing.

Devata.6589:

So thats not an unfounded insinuations that is a fact where the currency-grind is there directly because of the cash-shop.

Actually it is still a matter of opinion. Apply that same exact example to someone else and there may be no currency grind. If there is no currency grind then it is not there directly because of the cash shop.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Devata.6589:

Them making everything thats also in the game a gold grind to earn cash as motive I can not prove and so you can consider unfounded insinuations or one may name it common sense.

Oh, what about all the things that people complain about being RNG based? Things like Teq and TT drops, TA/AP drops, and all of the weapon skins from champ bags. Everything you want may be in the TP or the gem store, but it does not mean everything is.

But lets then just take a factual example.

They put a mini in the cash-shop (they do that with many mini’s thats a fact). How can I then get it? There are only 2 options. Buy it with cash or grind gold to then buy it (another fact). So thats not an unfounded insinuations that is a fact where the currency-grind is there directly because of the cash-shop.

So a game that is monetized via a cash shop puts things for sale in the cash shop. Oh my, how evil! They’re trying to make money to keep the game and company afloat!

For the record, I didn’t say the insinuation was that there were things in the gem store, I said it was that insinuation you’re making is that the gem store is just a cash grab. If it were just a cash grab there would be no option to get these things by accumulating gold.

You don’t want to play the game to get gold? Don’t. You want to get a mini by doing piece of content X over and over again? Fine, pick content you like and do it over and over again. Once you determine the gold yield, you won’t even have to deal with the evils of RNG.

I know you’d prefer they monetize by box sales of expansions only. Not going to happen. Even the sub games have cash shops, now. The days of games with no cash shop are gone, kaput, finito. You’re … (I was going to say wasting your breath, but I guess in this case it’s ablating your keyboard).

“So a game that is monetized via a cash shop puts things for sale in the cash shop. Oh my, how evil! They’re trying to make money to keep the game and company afloat!”

Where did I say them trying to make money is a bad thing? I just say I don’t like the cash-shop approach because of some of the effects of what I just showed you one using purely facts.

I don’t say.. don’t make money, I say, make money in another way. But you know that as you end your post with that.

I am not sure what you mean with ‘just a cash-grab’ or where I did say that. They use the cash-shop to make money and it effects the game in a specific way. A way I consider bad and in fact a way many people seem to consider bad looking at the complains about the grind. What I just showed how at least partially that is factually linked to to cash-shop.

And there is a difference between using the cash-shop to earn your money and having a cash-shop.

The idea that making money with box-sales if over seems to be a little strange. It is still the most used way for most games. It’s just not done a lot in MMO’s but then again that has never been the case and there was a time (just a few years ago) nobody believed in F2P games (read.. cash-shops) while now that is the standard for MMO’s so who says box-sales won’t be the standard for mmo’s in the future?

The fact that the cash-shop way is the most popular at this moment does not stop me from going against it. If it’s bad, it’s bad and I will say it’s bad even if the whole world world would say it was good. I’m not somebody who just go’s with the flow of the masses. Anyway, luckily there are many people who dislike it. Many of them did come to GW2 because it was sold as B2P and had a good name for it’s B2P model with GW1.

GW2 would not have existed where it for GW1 using that model. It is what made them big.

I’m all for locking things behind a skill wall. But not behind an RNG wall. Can’t jump up the tower? Then no. Can’t kill Liadri? Then no. That type of thing.

I think it’s time for a breather til they get their act together in a year or so.

Relshdan.6854:

Devata.6589:

Relshdan.6854:

lordkrall.7241:

….The Labyrinth available right now is a rather good way to get rather much money….

this.

it’s rewarding and isn’t rng-based………you get tons of bags (and mats). you get more than enough candy corn to convert them to “cobs” and buy the new items that the halloween vendor sells.

there will always be some level of rng “gambling” in the gem store/game……they need to make RL money (some people get a thrill out of gambling). it’s only lame when that is the way most of the event rewards are earned.

that isn’t the case here. there are plenty of non-rng rewards that are earned by playing the game.

It’s still just grinding for currency.

which has nothing to do with “rng-gambing”….or the thread topic. thanks for nothing.

But it is what lordkrall talked about where you reacted on.

Also getting the items from those bags (The two mini’s that can drop and the tickets for the 2012 Halloween skins) are still gables. Like I did say before, because of the high drop-rate of the bag you get a average that sort of hides the gable but it’s still there.

Ashen.2907:

Devata.6589:

So thats not an unfounded insinuations that is a fact where the currency-grind is there directly because of the cash-shop.

Actually it is still a matter of opinion. Apply that same exact example to someone else and there may be no currency grind. If there is no currency grind then it is not there directly because of the cash shop.

The only way to get that item ingame is to grind a currency. How could that not be factual true for another person? It’s factual true for the game.

Scoundrel.2139:

I’m all for locking things behind a skill wall. But not behind an RNG wall. Can’t jump up the tower? Then no. Can’t kill Liadri? Then no. That type of thing.

I think it’s time for a breather til they get their act together in a year or so.

I think you will always need RNG to some extent in an MMO. The question is more how you do it.