Guild Wars 2

I’d really enjoy to see a progress in the way I play my character. And I would play to see progresses. These types of progress are finished in 2 hours – how can it be a point of interest if you can get it in a few minutes?

Yes I want to be a Grandmaster, but wait… grandmaster in 10 minutes?
When i red about it, I thought about a -maybe- huge story instance, or a -epic- quest that leads me to the new grandmaster Traits!

I want to train with the best “insert random class” to increase my own knowledge!
I want to explore old and forgotten places to increase my own knowledge!

Maybe like “The Way of Fire” for the new +33% burning-damage Trait (Guard), where i can earn even the honour to get this trait, just because it is a old and legendary type of concentrated guardian-power.

Maybe by exploring a old Guardian-Abbey where I fight against old Guardian-Ghosts who died, because someone betrayed them. And by helping them to get their peace (or by finding and kill the betrayer) I get a chance to learn this old Way of fire.

I dont want to kill the priest of grenth! Why should this increase my power and make me to a master of my class? I want to proof, that I’m a master – by doing things like no one other (except the other Guardians)

I’d be happy if you, Anet, could think about this. It’s the beginning of trait-character-progression. I’d enjoy to see a development to more story and character-identification.

So, as instructed here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Personality-Traits-Missing/ I ask: Where is the personality indicators? They used to be on the hero’s tab, equipment section (that didn’t exist before) right next to the class icon.

OK, i just looked over that trait guide. Wow Anet. Seriously. I hadn’t realized how bad this was until just now.

Just one example: Battle for Claw Island – LEVEL 50
This has to be done to unlock a Tier 1 trait (II in the list). So by my caluclations, even though I gain access to Tier one stuff at level 30, and can get enough points to drop 2 into a trait line by my 40s, I still can’t even choose this particular LEVEL 1 trait until I am at least level 50 since that is the level of the kitten ed story step I need to do?!?!?!? Mind you this is just ONE of the absurdities I saw when looking over that list. Not even touching upon the making people that don’t know any better running into WvW just to die to those of us that play it more often just so they can unlock a trait that they might use on occasion.

Seriously, I get you want people to play all aspects of the game, but you are basically forcing them to play those things just to progress personally. I didn’t enter WvW until I was level 80 for a while on my main toon, and even then it was hard for me. I had a lot to learn and re-learn, but i stayed around to have fun. If i had to go in there just to progress my character at a lower level, not only would it have left a real bad taste in my mouth, but i might have just quit playing the game. This is a big misstep Anet. A big one.

I hate to say it, but you guys have made a mistake here that needs to be tweaked. Some others have had some good suggestions, but yeah. Big mistakes.

Rash.6514:

So, as instructed here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Personality-Traits-Missing/ I ask: Where is the personality indicators? They used to be on the hero’s tab, equipment section (that didn’t exist before) right next to the class icon.

Uhm, not being rude to you, since you are just following instructions, but why does anet think putting it here was appropriate?

Seriously the mods on these forums are playing a shell game right now with posts and i don’t like it.

OK, as of 4/17 evening patch, you’ve added the Defense events for Grenth and Lyssa to count toward their unlocks. Thank you, that helps with the Megaserver combination to some degree.

Now if you can just move that one trait off Karka Queen (or demote her to Mid-Level boss), I’d be much happier about the new GM traits.

As for the discussion regarding the lower tier traits, I’ll defer to other experience here. I have all the classes I’m interested in to 80, and was not planning on taking any newer characters past 20 (for experiencing personal story).

The unlock requirements for some of them though are a little over the top, however: Why is there a WvW requirement for a character trait? The one using the OS map is passable (that one tended to be somewhat neutral territory), but captures etc seem a little problematic. Especially if the trait is one that works great in WvW in the first place.

I couldn’t read all 9 pages, but after reading halfway through it occurred to me that there is a really significant difference between the experience of a new player and a new character. As a new player, there is a world of stuff to figure out in the first 40 levels, as you really have no idea how the game works at all and you are busy figuring out such simple stuff as repairs, where to go in the world, karma vendors, crafting, map completion bonuses, travel, the auction house, the bank… it is all shiny and new and overwhelming. Not having to deal with traits until later may be an advantage for those truly new players.

However, when you are leveling your third or fourth alt there isn’t much new anymore other than the new class mechanics and traits to play with. I don’t think gating the experience is nearly as important for these players on new characters. I really like the idea of vendors that only sell account bound items to max level characters that allow them to move through some of this stuff more quickly. Maybe you buy and send a “tome of knowledge” to your alt that teaches them 5 trait points in advance. Or an item that grants bonuses to experience and heart quest completion so your alt levels and little faster and moves through the heart completion quests a little quicker the second time through. That way, repeat players get the streamlined experience and incentive to roll alts while the new player get the unaltered experience Anet had in mind. That could make both sides reasonably happy.

I’m fine with there being requirements to unlock traits, I just think the whole thing needs to be unlocked earlier than it is.

All 14 trait points should be available to the character by level 60.

It’s a major part of the customization, thus a major part of the fun of building a character. Having it fully available at level 60 ensures the player has some time during the leveling process to try out different builds and playstyles before committing to gear at 80.

Personally, it’s driving me nuts that I can’t play around with the traits sooner. Even for my level 71 guardian the options feel so limited by the current system, because 6 of the 14 trait points come after this.

I feel like level 20 is a good place to start the trait point distribution. You’re messing around with different weapons for the first ten levels, then different slot skills for the next ten, so it would feel pretty natural to start getting access to traits at 20. Unlock the second tier traits at 40, then the final tier at 60, and distribute the 14 trait points inside of this range.

(Edit to correct numbers for the current trait point system.)

Long story short. I can deal with all the changes of this re-release of the game.

But this new Trait system is really awful. I mean Epic Fail bad imo.

The tier levels are probably the worst part. 30 is bad, 60 is really bad with 66 before you get 2 points at a time, but 80? Really?

At this point I could no longer recommend this game to a friend starting from scratch.

I have an inherent contempt for conspiracy theory mavens, but I actually hope that this is all a sham. That the Real new trait system, that still sucks but not as bad as the current one, is already prepared and will be put in place soon. That what we have now was just a way to get us to feel good about the Real system. with levels like 25 45 65 and points that make more sense.

PookieDaWombat.6209:

Rash.6514:

So, as instructed here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Personality-Traits-Missing/ I ask: Where is the personality indicators? They used to be on the hero’s tab, equipment section (that didn’t exist before) right next to the class icon.

Uhm, not being rude to you, since you are just following instructions, but why does anet think putting it here was appropriate?

Seriously the mods on these forums are playing a shell game right now with posts and i don’t like it.

The moderator obviously didn’t read the post. They jsut read the word “trait” and thought it was to do with traits when it’s not.

DavidH.7380:

I couldn’t read all 9 pages, but after reading halfway through it occurred to me that there is a really significant difference between the experience of a new player and a new character. As a new player, there is a world of stuff to figure out in the first 40 levels, as you really have no idea how the game works at all and you are busy figuring out such simple stuff as repairs, where to go in the world, karma vendors, crafting, map completion bonuses, travel, the auction house, the bank… it is all shiny and new and overwhelming. Not having to deal with traits until later may be an advantage for those truly new players.

However, when you are leveling your third or fourth alt there isn’t much new anymore other than the new class mechanics and traits to play with. I don’t think gating the experience is nearly as important for these players on new characters. I really like the idea of vendors that only sell account bound items to max level characters that allow them to move through some of this stuff more quickly. Maybe you buy and send a “tome of knowledge” to your alt that teaches them 5 trait points in advance. Or an item that grants bonuses to experience and heart quest completion so your alt levels and little faster and moves through the heart completion quests a little quicker the second time through. That way, repeat players get the streamlined experience and incentive to roll alts while the new player get the unaltered experience Anet had in mind. That could make both sides reasonably happy.

Just how careful were you to read the reviews given by new players? Already various new players came here to express their dissatisfaction. They felt nerfed. They felt confused by this change. But not a single one of them complained about the old trait system being “overwhelming”. Please do take the time to read a few more pages if you actually wish to read the reviews given by new players.

When I was new the trait system did not overwhelm me at all. Why would it? It just requires reading. I looked at the Trait window and started reading. Then some clicking. The in-game tool tips also helped because… I read them. Reading. That’s what it takes. Being new to a game should not stop you from taking your time to read tool tips and read what can be found on screen. Do you think it is unfair to expect new players to read?

At this point I am convinced that the dev’s tired old “But we just want to make it easier for the new players” excuse is nothing short of a scapegoat to appease the masses.

PS: I’m sorry if that sounded harsh, I’m just really shocked by the idea someone would be “overwhelmed” by traits. Especially given that at this point, most players have already become acquainted with the concept of “traits” in other games Not just MMOs, but some solo RPGs as well. The concept and theory behind traits as part of character progression is really not unique. So the number of new players who would disregard reading and are unacquainted with the concept of traits as part of character progression are an extreme minority. Does such a low population merit a change that negatively affects the rest? Again, as I’ve said… the whole “But we are doing it for the new players!” is really just a huge scapegoat.

Another option is to make these traits unlockable through something in PvE, WvW, and PvP each so a player can decide if they are a 100% whatever player, which one they want to do to unlock that trait and not foce people into modes they are not willing to play in.

We ask for trait/skill unlocks like in GW1 and we get the same five events for all the 40 different traits. Hilarious!

Lord Kuru.3685:

We ask for trait/skill unlocks like in GW1 and we get the same five events for all the 40 different traits. Hilarious!

The weirdest thing is that the “unlock skills by grinding quests” was so unpopular in Guild Wars 1 that they abolished it for Factions, in favour of skill points and skill traders. I really can’t fathom why Anet thought that a system that failed in Guild Wars 1 would be acceptable to Guild Wars 2 players in an even more grind-laden form.

I am wondering if NCSoft forced this through, in an effort to kill GW2 so all attention could be focused on Wildstar. (Kind of like what they did with City of Heroes just before GW2 launched).

Nynuwe.5893:

DavidH.7380:

I couldn’t read all 9 pages, but after reading halfway through it occurred to me that there is a really significant difference between the experience of a new player and a new character. As a new player, there is a world of stuff to figure out in the first 40 levels, as you really have no idea how the game works at all and you are busy figuring out such simple stuff as repairs, where to go in the world, karma vendors, crafting, map completion bonuses, travel, the auction house, the bank… it is all shiny and new and overwhelming. Not having to deal with traits until later may be an advantage for those truly new players.

However, when you are leveling your third or fourth alt there isn’t much new anymore other than the new class mechanics and traits to play with. I don’t think gating the experience is nearly as important for these players on new characters. I really like the idea of vendors that only sell account bound items to max level characters that allow them to move through some of this stuff more quickly. Maybe you buy and send a “tome of knowledge” to your alt that teaches them 5 trait points in advance. Or an item that grants bonuses to experience and heart quest completion so your alt levels and little faster and moves through the heart completion quests a little quicker the second time through. That way, repeat players get the streamlined experience and incentive to roll alts while the new player get the unaltered experience Anet had in mind. That could make both sides reasonably happy.

Just how careful were you to read the reviews given by new players? Already various new players came here to express their dissatisfaction. They felt nerfed. They felt confused by this change. But not a single one of them complained about the old trait system being “overwhelming”. Please do take the time to read a few more pages if you actually wish to read the reviews given by new players.

When I was new the trait system did not overwhelm me at all. Why would it? It just requires reading. I looked at the Trait window and started reading. Then some clicking. The in-game tool tips also helped because… I read them. Reading. That’s what it takes. Being new to a game should not stop you from taking your time to read tool tips and read what can be found on screen. Do you think it is unfair to expect new players to read?

At this point I am convinced that the dev’s tired old “But we just want to make it easier for the new players” excuse is nothing short of a scapegoat to appease the masses.

PS: I’m sorry if that sounded harsh, I’m just really shocked by the idea someone would be “overwhelmed” by traits. Especially given that at this point, most players have already become acquainted with the concept of “traits” in other games Not just MMOs, but some solo RPGs as well. The concept and theory behind traits as part of character progression is really not unique. So the number of new players who would disregard reading and are unacquainted with the concept of traits as part of character progression are an extreme minority. Does such a low population merit a change that negatively affects the rest? Again, as I’ve said… the whole “But we are doing it for the new players!” is really just a huge scapegoat.

I agree. I admit, I did felt overwhelm with gw2 when I first started out but this had nothing to do with the trait system. when I first started I was overwhelmed, for the first 5-10 levels, by the weapon skills and utility skills. There is a lot to choose from. But it wasn’t a big deal because I knew the game gave you enough points to unlock all the skills. The old trait system were unlocked by levels and there was always an option to reset from the the npc. this means, as a new player, you don’t have to learn everything right away and theres no pressure to choice the right build while you are still learning.

besides players are more likely to quit due to boredom than being overwhelmed with options.

Feedback about patch changes to traits:

- Trait Unlocking -

• Having the ability to unlock traits through quests and exploration = Awesome. This makes the game feel more like a RPG -and- it shows that you listen to player feedback.
• I suggest that a single trait at each level of each tree should be auto-unlocked, so that the players can feel that they’ve progressed as soon as the trait slot becomes available. You could pick a default or (my favorite) have the choice made randomly when the slot becomes unlocked.
• Adept tier trait unlocks should be soloable by a relatively new player, wearing gear procured through semi-random means (common-uncommon quality), some of which may even be level-inappropriate. These are introductory traits, and should be unlockable with some effort, regardless of skill.
• Master tier trait quests should be doable by a semi-experienced player in level-appropriate gear (uncommon+masterwork quality), maybe requiring two such players for the hardest of them. Even the hardest of these unlocks should be soloable by a highly experienced player who is well-geared (masterwork quality, maybe some rare). Many players (especially casual players) do not wish to group until they have reached max level, and that should be supported as far as reasonably possible.
• Grandmaster tier trait unlocks should be possible with at most a 5-person party of experienced players whom are well-geared (level-appropriate rares, maybe some exotics). Something fundamental like a trait unlock should absolutely not require you to do anything that requires multiple groups of other players, such as kill a world boss. The core parts of this game were designed to be done by 1 to 5 people, and it should stay that way.

- Trait points per level -

• a.k.a. The “you-only-progress-every-X-levels” system
• First off, I recognize that we may be missing vital information about why traits were changed like this. An example:
  [ Pretty much everything critical about a character’s power now only goes up every 5-6 levels (gear has always basically followed this jump model). What if the level cap is being dropped to 20 (like in GW1)? Divide level by X, and bam …]
• If I’m wrong, and we’re not missing some viewpoint-changing information, then the trait progression rescaling is an inconceivably awful move; the idea of incremental progression is absolutely critical to game design, and removing that without reason is… well, I’ll stick with inconceivable. Not much else I can say, you already know the problems with this system… and if you didn’t before, theres 8+ pages of people who’ve listed them already.

- Other -

• Free instant-anywhere trait resets: Superb. Makes the endgame far more fluid and fun.
• Adding new traits: Excellent. Please continue to do this at all levels. Horizontal progression FTW.

Whenever the devs get back, if any of you pay attention to this, thank you for reading.

The more I learn about it, the more I hate the new trait system. This is SO far from “play how you want”, which is exactly what attracted to me the game..

No more alts for me. I am lucky enough to have 7 of 8 classes/professions at 80 and would have truly liked to make the last one, but there is absolutely no way I am dealing with the tedium of this new system. Most of the stuff on that list I have zero interest in doing. And the skill point costs if you decide to simply buy are excessive.

Very ,very let down by this scheme.

Removing the re-trait fee – Great.

Being able to re-trait anywhere – Great. More than I hoped for, in fact.

Simplifying down to 14 points instead of 70 – I’m fine with that. Makes it easier to re-trait.

Distribution of points in relation to character level – It seems like it’s weighted too heavily towards the higher levels.

The new trait unlock scheme – Seriously? I’m glad I had 8 level 80s already because this really reduces my desire to ever go through the leveling process again.

Having only one very specific gameplay-based unlock method per trait wouldn’t be too bad if they were all relatively easy to accomplish for an individual not-yet-highly-leveled-or-equipped character. But instead there are:
- Numerous map completions, which many people will find quite time-consuming and tedious.
- Several personal-story steps, which again can be tedious to get to.
- Several dungeon story modes, which obviously can’t be done solo. If a person doesn’t have friends or helpful guildmates who will take a non-level-80 through, then a player may be roadblocked quite a while from getting those traits.
- Various other group content and hard-to-solo content (especially for lower-level and un-traited characters).
- WvW content like the Overgrown Grub, Obsidian Sanctum, and Inferno’s Needle. Does this even need an explanation why it’s problematic? Forcing people into WvW who either don’t want to be there or aren’t high-leveled and properly equipped is not really good for anyone. Every time living story content was put in the Obsidian Sanctum, a significant portion of players didn’t like it. I can’t imagine why putting a trait unlock there seemed like a good idea or beneficial to anyone (except the players who like to camp it and grief others).

Of course a player can always choose to pay for the traits instead. Except that now costs a considerable amount of gold and skill points. 10g 100sp for all Master traits when it used to be 1g? Another 15g 100sp for the traditional Grandmasters when it used to be 2g? Wow. For a new player, those costs are ridiculous. And even with a new character of an existing player, for a large portion of the player base those are non-trivial amounts.

So leveling players are being pushed to either:
- Do lots of dungeons, story quests, map completions, events, bosses, etc to get their traits. But I thought do-everything-in-the-world type of requirements were supposed to be for high-end things like Ascended and Legendaries.
- Or grind out gold and skill points. But I thought this game was about keeping grind out of the core systems. I find it hard to imagine many players have been thinking “Gee, I wish the leveling process had more grind to it”.

I really don’t understand what this is supposed to accomplish, other than make it take considerably longer to get a properly powered-up level 80 character. And from my point of view, that’s not beneficial at all.

Okay so I started an experiment: I created a new character (Ele) as I only had characters which were adapted into the system.
TL&DR is: This new trait system is horrible for new players.

First off, I appreciate you trying to push players a bit into exploring the world, getting used to the characters and so on. The new trait system certainly does that – BUT there are some really obvious flaws.

To start off, you (the player) lost traitpoints up until lvl30 – Which means you are slightly weaker from lvl11 to 30 nowadays. Given that some classes, like the thief, are horrible to level in PvE due to them being really frail, lacking those traits really hurts.

From there on you get another trait point at lvl36 – So at lvl36 you could get your first adept trait. BUT somebody thought it’d be funny to link an adept trait, which you could get at lvl36, with a lvl70-80 map completion. Just think about that for a second please…

Also the new trait system encourages you to play WvW to get traits unlocked. However, due to not having a standard set of traits or even no traits at all you are even weaker as a upleveled player nowadays. You get rap** so much, it’s not even funny.

You introduced a system which is as flexible as possible (resetting traits everywhere) to encourage people to try out stuff BUT you restricted trait unlocking so much it’s hard to actually reach a point where you CAN be that flexible.

The solution? Buy all traits with gold and skillpoints… But skillpoints should be used for SKILLS. This is a really glaring problem right now. You are literally forced to pay for your traits since you simply can’t get to them otherwise (As seen with the complete a lvl70-80 map for an adept trait).

Things that you should really concider:

Link traits to appropriate challenges – If adept traits are unlocked by completing a lvl15-40 map it would be okay. Same goes for jumping puzzles or events within those level boundaries. Higher traits would require higher level areas.

Strike the skillpoint cost from traits (Even if just for adept traits) or lower them by a bit – As it stands you only end up strangulating yourself over getting traits or skills.

Give a possibility to unlock standard traits – Example: If you reach lvl36 you have a choice to unlock 1 adept trait of your choice and so on for higher levels.

I seriously urge you to reconsider your trait system. It hurts your game in so many ways it’s nothing to joke about.

Edit: I agree with the previous poster above me wholeheartedly.

are we just going to ignore the fact that all the Guardian ones are worthless?

Personally, I am very confused as to how this new trait system was thought up and organized. Like many of the previous comments, I am not too pleased with the new trait system.

First off, I’ll start on a positive note by saying: the free trait reset / reset anywhere ability are both great ideas which allow people to better experiment with their builds even while out in the wilderness. I have already put this to use many times, and I really appreciate being able to do this. Also, condensing the points from 70 to 14 makes sense to me, and simplifies the way players can setup their characters.

However, in regards to the new point distribution formula, I don’t understand why they would move the starting point from 10 to 30. Not only are newer characters subjected to losing out on the benefits of those points between 10 and 29, it really dampers the enjoyment of leveling a character. It feels like I am going nowhere, until I reach level 30. I have a couple below 30 characters from before the patch, and when I play them it really doesn’t feel like they are progressing, mainly because I cannot tweak their stats and traits. For example, I would like to add some toughness to my thief, so that he is a little harder to kill, but alas I cannot until he is much higher in level. Furthermore, these characters are slightly weaker than before and are more difficult to play. Although this problem is survivable, this adjustment is something that I have to disagree with. Personally, I would prefer something similar to what we had before; trait points starting at a lower level, and a more uniform distribution (as opposed to getting most of the points in the tail end of the leveling ladder).

As all of my lower level characters were created just before the patch, I cannot comment much on the issues regarding the unlocking of traits. Although this “unlock” system has the potential to be a good way to develop a character… it seems that it is too muddled in forcing players into situations that would be otherwise unpleasant or impossible until much further in the game. It also has a bit of a tedious feel to it; in the sense that unlocking every single trait will require a lot of time and running around. Or farming money, for those whom take the alternative of purchasing their traits. (Of course, there is always the option of gems to gold, but again, not everyone wants to do that.)

In general, I welcome any attempt to improve the trait system; there is nothing wrong with trying to keep the game fresh. However, I am having trouble accepting this particular update. If done correctly, an update should enhance the player’s experience and their impression of the game. Unfortunately, I think that this updated trait system requires much reconsideration. If the game seems to be progressing too slowly in the early stages of the game, it will affect the first impressions of those whom have just started playing. Also, it deters veteran players from considering extra character slots to make alts, because this format is too monotonous and troublesome to deal with.

I sincerely hope that the comments within this thread are taken into account, and that the appropriate adjustments are made to the trait system so that it is more uniform and enjoyable for everyone.

Cheers.

Okay, let me start by saying I like most of this update. However, I do despise the trait update piece. My non 80 level toons feel heavily nerfed with very little customization to boot. Not to mention, the lack of a reward when gaining a level makes leveling feel kind of worthless. The stacking of traits so heavily towards 80 makes the sub 80 game almost feel like a chore to play. I worry about the impressions of game will make now on new players. GW2 use to be fun from 1 to 80, now the sub 80 game is pretty painful.

That cooldown on the mesmer trait, Triumphant Distortion, needs to go. I thought you said there wouldn’t be a cooldown on it?

All I can say is that I’m glad at least one of my lowbies got grandfathered in…

I will not be making any new characters under the current system….

My lower-down toons can’t get fall damage reduction (something I use a lot) until level 30 now. Well done.

Just started 2 new characters… I gotta admit, so far I am liking it.

Please revert to the old trait system and UI but keep the free respec.

Was really enjoying leveling up. It felt good to improve your character bit by bit with trait points. Got up to level 28 right before the patch. Logged in next day to find out I don’t have traits anymore. To make it worse, found out later that I had to hunt down the traits or buy them (which is difficult for new players) is like adding insult to injuries.

The new trait system is horrible for new players and alts.

I was working on a 10th alt prior to the patch and took a break. Just returned to the game after being away and now that I see this new system I have no desire to level this alt or any purchase any other character slots.

I do not want to do the story lines again nor do I want to spend my free time farming gold and skill points just to be able to buy a guide – I just want to pop into wvw for a few hours when I have some free time, run with a few friends, and level up that way.

I have no problems with the unlock system for the advanced traits but please revert to the old trait system.

When I played EverQuest One of the things I found most Interesting was that spells were not Just given to you. Some you could easilly buy at nearby merchants… others you needed to get to. ONE a level 8 pet spell for my enchantwer, I needed to go through a zone of level 30 undead that came out at night. So that meant waiting til the sun came up..then sneaking because the Mobs were still 10 levels above me.. then I had to find My way through a Mountain pass with a Lot of twists turns…dead ends..all while being attacked By random Mobs that passed by.

How Much fun was it??? years later i STILL remember it. So Just because something slows you down or Knocks you back a bit, doesn’t make it bad. Just because sometimes something is simply handed to you for 1 Gold…doesn’t mean it’s a good thing. Having to do events for traits …is a Good thing, it’s Just not desired By many because it’s harder than Just Buying an adept, master, or grandmaster tome.

Doghouse.1562:

ANet, you have GOT to be joking!

Just checked out what my Ele needs to do to get the traits I was planning for her. Apparently, to get “Windborne Dagger” (Arcana trait VI), she needs to “Earn 100% completion in Frostgorge Sound”. So let’s be clear about what that means – to get an “Adept” trait, that she could in theory unlock at level 36 (and could previously have used at level 20!) – she has to fully complete a level 70-80 zone?!?. Either this is coldly calculated to make sure people buy the traits, or it’s downright malicious, or someone really hasn’t done their job and thought this through.

Levetty.1279:

So a group of us were sat around outside Lyssa’s Temple waiting for the defense event to come up so we can ignore it so it will FAIL and we can try the event to get the trait we one (great design Anet) while laughing about how stupid this is.

Defense event starts and a handful of people decide to troll and do the defense event so now we can’t try to get the trait for another 2 hours…

Doghouse.1562:

….. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Trait_guide

According to that, the following traits require 100% completion of the given area (traits for each profession have identical requirements). Zone levels are as shown. Please note: these are so-called adept traits in every case, that even under the new system you could in principle use at

__LEVEL 36.

Line 1, trait V: Blazeridge Steppes (40-50)

Line 2, trait IV: Lornar’s Pass (30-40)
Line 2, trait V: Bloodtide Coast (45-55)
Line 2, trait VI: Fireheart Rise (60-70)

Line 3, trait V: Fields of Ruin (30-40)
Line 3, trait VI: Iron Marches (50-60)

Line 4, trait IV: Harathi Hinterlands (35-45)
Line 4, trait V: Timberline Falls (50-60)
Line 4, trait VI: Mount Maelstrom (60-70)

Line 5, trait IV: Dredgehaunt Cliffs (40-50)
Line 5, trait V: Sparkfly Fen (55-65)
Line 5, trait VI: Frostgorge Sound (70-80)

It’s fairly clear that most people aren’t going to be able to unlock many of those at any point close to when they supposedly become available.

…. The point is that, for new characters, the existing major traits now have access requirements as well – and some of those are ludicrously OUT OF REACH FOR THE LEVEL of character they’re nominally FOR, even under the new point allocation._

Are people even reading this?

Having to aquire traits in zones and sometimes complete the zones, not even in the same level range as the character trying to get the traits, even 10-20 levels or more ahead of the character’s level.

Having to FAIL events to get a trait,
that are so popular it’s impossible to let fail, because of so many people there and defending, constantly.

It’s ridiculous.

I’m all for taking my time, but this is just nuts.

Edit:
Ok, so I read that defense events now counts for unlocks, so I guess Anet is reading this?
Thank You for that!
Now, if you could just put requirements of events or zone completions, to be in the appropriate level range of the character that supposed to be doing them, that would be great, too

I like the idea of gaining traits by exploring the world and doing things in it, but the exact objectives chosen are extremely questionable. Don’t make low level character who are already handicapped in WvW (more-so now that they don’t have trait points) play against fully leveled and spec’d characters to gain a trait. That’s not going to be fun for anyone. Don’t put traits behind content that can’t be done in a reasonable sitting with a moderate amount of effort. Some of us play during off hours and there’s just not enough people around to complete these events. Consider adding multiple objectives for traits so unlocking them provides a fun goal for the player rather than a tedious slog through parts of the game they have no interest in.

The unlock system could be good, but it’s current implementation is not.

I played on my lower level alts (< level 30) and it feels as though their survivability is substantially lower without trait points. It also feels as though leveling up doesn’t provide much reward now that trait points are not gained until much later. The ‘carrot’ leading me to the next level doesn’t really exist anymore, which makes leveling less enjoyable.

Getting traits is very alt unfriendly and discourage me from leveling an alt.

1. In terms of opportunity costs, if you are level 80 you can get more money than a under levels alt. The player already misses out on money by definition. However the new trait system made it even more difficult to justify leveling an alt. While leveling an alt can be good for the economy because you spend gold on gear and looks.

1.1 By doing time consuming quest the leveling process takes longer so to reach your goal: end game content
1.2 The quest system could be justified if there was a real alternative but there is not one. The prices are just too kitten™ high. Which returns me to my starting point.

This new trait system discourages me from making alts and spending money on them, and so keep playing level 80’s I currently have. My solution roll back to the old trait costs to 3g for all traits. Simple but effective.

As a new player with only under-30 characters that liked pre-15th April all aspects of the game (PvE, sPvP and WvW) I find the new system ridiculous for all the reasons already mentioned. If you want to put rewards on special actions (map completion, events etc) that improve character customisation, then do it for secondary systems like gear and keep the primary ones as they were before.

I think One of the problems is, that some recent games have gotten us accustomed to thinking that " The game begins at 80" and all the levels in between Character creation, and level 80, are just " something to slog through On the way to “The Game” "

The game begins at level 1. What you see as “grinding on the way to level 80” is " Playing the Game."

Instead of Looking at all the hurdles between level 1, and level 80, as something negative. See it as intended this is " The Game".

I am getting the impression that many players Just want to hit level 80, but really don’t like Playing. I mean… the traits are rewards for playing the game. Either you do events, or you hunt down skill points and save up cash. Saying " Hiding the traits behind content" just makes me wonder, if people do Not wish to do content….why are they even here?

Nerelith.7360:

I think One of the problems is, that some recent games have gotten us accustomed to thinking that " The game begins at 80" and all the levels in between Character creation, and level 80, are just " something to slog through On the way to “The Game” "

The game begins at level 1. What you see as “grinding on the way to level 80” is " Playing the Game."

Instead of Looking at all the hurdles between level 1, and level 80, as something negative. See it as intended this is " The Game".

I am getting the impression that many players Just want to hit level 80, but really don’t like Playing. I mean… the traits are rewards for playing the game. Either you do events, or you hunt down skill points and save up cash. Saying " Hiding the traits behind content" just makes me wonder, if people do Not wish to do content….why are they even here?

Some traits for level 30 require completing a higher level zone like a level 50 zone,
it’s NOT balanced.
Not to mention, there is less of a sense of progression below 30,
it definitely feels much slower,
which is fine for some people,
but will turn other players away from the game.
Not a good idea for a mmo. The goal is to get customers, not turn them away.

I like leveling characters, correction liked,
before this patch.
Liked exploring,
finding events normally while wandering around, the whole thing, I don’t like rushing to 80;
so yeah, your argument is flawed.

So, I’ve been playing for two weeks now. I was loving the game, and was smack dab in the middle of the honeymoon phase. I was so wrapped up in it that I hadn’t even bothered posting on the forums yet. However, I’ve been playing these games since 1999, and this is the first time since 2003 that a single patch has killed an entire MMO for me; it has -never- happened to me during my initial rush of love like it did this time.

Full disclosure, I am very probably not the target demographic for this game. I realized that going in, because I’m not fond of dungeons and I’m not fond of pvp. Dynamic events can be fun, but mostly I like leveling, I like character progression. Much to my surprise, I loved the GW2 system of last week. I looked forward to logging in every day and making the tiniest bit of progress, having the player agency of adding a point here and a point there at the end of every day. Those were heady days!

They’re gone. My endgame has always been the journey of leveling alts (by playing the game, not grinding through it), and it was literally the only endgame that mattered to me in GW2. The new changes make it feel like progression doesn’t begin until 30, and from that point on it only happens once every six levels. The whole system feels back-loaded now, making the first half of the game feel like “something you just have to get through until the good part begins.”

Contrary to what the intended design goal was, the new system — if it made me want to log in at all — would make me want to just zerg-grind my way to the cap so I’d have traits to play with, not play through it incrementally the way I did before.

I’m sad, because I was really enjoying myself for awhile there. I don’t consider my money wasted, but the honeymoon’s definitely over now and the bell-hop’s taking my bags to the car.

Normally I wouldn’t write a post like this. I’m not really invested in the community yet, no one has any reason to care whether I stay or go, and “I quit!” messages after patches always seem ugly and self-serving. My main reason for posting today is that these changes were ostensibly put into place to make the game more enjoyable for newcomers. I’m a newcomer (so new I didn’t even realize these changes were incoming), and they chased me right out the door. It seemed worthy of note, especially since I’m exactly the sort of player who would’ve bought three or four character slots somewhere down the line.

Just stick the traits behind appropriate level events please, that will help a lot. I still won’t like the changes, but I’ll feel better knowing an adept tier trait 1 isn’t behind something I can’t do until level 50.

imo:

traits should have been in general more focused solo, or small player events

traits should have had multiple choices for obtaining them

traits should have some unique events tied to them

should be more linked to the actual traits for some methods of aquisition.

Should probably be focused in within 10 levels of when they get unlocked.

should have started at 10 or maybe 15

Additional feedback about traits:

1) Please spread out the trait points. You -need- incremental character progression, otherwise levelling is awful. I’m not going into my usual level of detail because others have already covered what “awful” means. Just adding my vote to the pile.

2) Quest-based trait unlocks were designed to make world exploration integral to character development. Right now each class has the exact same unlock quests.

• After the first character, the unlocks no longer serve to encourage exploration.
• I have one character of each class, and its not fun to do the same quest 8 times.
• Previously this post requested that each class get different unlock quests. I have edited this out because the unlock system has serious problems that need fixing before we can even consider improving it. Details can be found in my other posts.

Wow, I did a short post. Is the world ending?

It appears the Guardian trait Renewed Justice has been removed from the game. Nowhere in any of the patch notes do I see this disclosed. That trait was very centric to the greatsword burning build I play. It would have been nice to have know this in advance. I’m very discouraged that I’ll now have to change my entire play style…

Nerelith.7360:

I think One of the problems is, that some recent games have gotten us accustomed to thinking that " The game begins at 80" and all the levels in between Character creation, and level 80, are just " something to slog through On the way to “The Game” "

The game begins at level 1. What you see as “grinding on the way to level 80” is " Playing the Game."

Well you’re right about that. The problem is that “the game begins at 80” is exactly what this new design encourages, not what it discourages. The trait distribution is now completely end-loaded, you don’t even unlock GM traits until level 80, and even lower tier traits require content that’s closer to endgame.

The old distribution is much better for the kind of gameplay that you’re advocating.

FYI…Update. Just Opened the Illusions XIII by defeating the High Priestess of Lyssa. For those that say " oh it’s impossible, because with megaserver bla bla bla"

ALL it took was a Little communication on map chat… saying " to get the trait point do not defend.." until people learned the fight.

Since I got it.. and have gotten 3 of the 5 Grandmaster traits in 4 days by doing content, that kinda makes the " we cannot do them it’s impossible" argument…kind of… Not credible…at least by me that is.

Nerelith.7360:

FYI…Update. Just Opened the Illusions XIII by defeating the High Priestess of Lyssa. For those that say " oh it’s impossible, because with megaserver bla bla bla"

ALL it took was a Little communication on map chat… saying " to get the trait point do not defend.." until people learned the fight.

Since I got it.. and have gotten 3 of the 5 Grandmaster traits in 4 days by doing content, that kinda makes the " we cannot do them it’s impossible" argument…kind of… Not credible…at least by me that is.

A lot of the complaints were made before the most recent update, which now allows defend events to unlock the traits. Before, you had to actually FAIL the event and then fight to unlock. It’s refreshing to see that you no longer have to fail the event to unlock the trait.

You got lucky; all megaserver is (especially in Orr) is one giant PUG-fest. You won’t always get players who actually read and listen (remember the Wurms event in BC? Yeah, just like that). Not everyone had been that fortunate.

But now that ANet made it so defend events unlock traits, the PUG-fest can continue.

Initially I was excited to see a mine on crit option with the new trait called Bunker Down however I have to say that this mine like the ones we drop is pretty much too tiny and too useless in it’s current incarnation to make this skill worthy of a XIII slot. It also falls on a line that is for firearms and interferes with the usefulness of modified ammunition for engineers.

Will there be any change to the placement of modified ammunition to compensate or will this be moved to the explosives trait line so we can gain the usefulness of both? And will the radius be increased dramatically for this mine?

I already have a Engineer at lvl 80. When I leveled it, I immediately got Speedy Kits at lvl 30 to have access to permanent swiftness – makes getting around and lvling alot easier.

Now I decided to lvl another Engineer post patch. Nevermind that it takes till lvl 35 now till I have the grandmaster trait where Speedy Kits is…to actually unlock Speedy Kits I need 100% map completion on Frostgorge Sound!

I find it ridiculous that a first grandmaster trait, unlockable at lvl 35, requires the completion of a task in a lvl 70-80 zone -.-

I’m also pretty sure someone who starts this game now would be quite confused and frustrated by this.

A personal reaction to levelling under the new system, now I’ve had a little time to try it.

I’ve made several comments in this thread so far about the mess that the pre-level 80 trait system now looks to be. But there’s nothing beats experience, and I’m well aware that my expectations and guesses as to how something will work out are not always correct. And I like to be fair. So, over the last few days (having a lot of spare time on my hands), I’ve been PvE levelling a level 27 elementalist that I had at the time of the patch. Note that, because she already existed, she has all but the new character traits already unlocked, so I’ve had none of the issues that a wholly-new character will face. She’s now level 40, so I reckon I’ve given the system at least the beginnings of a fair trial.

And I’d say that, in my opinion – and compared to what it felt like before – the feel of levelling can now be summed up in one word:

Soulless. (Sorry, ANet, but it is.)

Before, from quite early on, each new level had a reward. Granted, mostly it was a small reward – just one more tick toward the next major or minor trait, plus a slight improvement in your character stats. But it was still there. You got to open your trait panel and push the button to allocate it. Every level felt like progress. And every now and again, that progress would add up, and you’d get a bigger reward.

Now? Until level 30: nothing. A new level is just a number on the screen. At 30, you finally get that first trait – and the feeling is more of an exhausted, frustrated “Jeez, at last…” than a delighted “YES!”. And then, for another 6 levels, it’s a continuing search for the next places to go to get experience, and it’s back to the same old, dragging, unrewarded grind. And levelling up now isn’t so much something that gives you a sense of achievement, as an annoying reminder of just how far you’ve still got to go before you get anything back for the effort.

Basically, the new design has turned its back on something the industry has laboriously learned over decades, and that every game designer ought to understand without even thinking: Players thrive on regular, positive feedback and reward, even if it’s only small. The new trait system has gratuitously stripped out a core reward for the effort of levelling, and it’s the worse for it.

**One thing you still get at each level, of course, are Skill Points. Now – it’s possible that the new system could have been tuned to make me eagerly welcome the new point that each level brought, to let me get that new slot skill I wanted. And I can see how a player new to the game might still find that to be the case (at first, at least). In my case, knowing the build I was working towards, it simply didn’t come into the equation. By the time each new slot became available, I always had the points I needed to buy the skill I wanted to put into it – up to and including the Elite slot. And even if I’d been obliged to buy my first major trait (by virtue of being totally incapable of getting to the content to release it), I’d still have had the points I needed – even ignoring the option of buying it via another character. My Skill Point total simply didn’t matter.

(Edit: Corrected “minor trait” to “major trait” above)

Edit 2:
Oh. And, at level 40 – half way through the (numerical) levelling process – I have precisely ONE (Count it! One!) major trait allocated, to make her substantially different to every other elementalist out there. And she won’t get another for 8 levels yet. I cannot honestly express just how disheartening that feels.

Wow… Stupid decision to require events to unlock trait progression.

At first, I was impressed. It looked like the only skills requiring additional quests were the grandmaster traits. Suddenly, patch….and now everything requires an unlock or gold sink. Way to take one step forward Anet, and three backwards.

……this is not alt friendly.

The new unlock system is almost amazing in how badly it executes a wonderful idea. The requirements for unlocking Adept and Master tier traits are astonishingly unbalanced.

As just a single example, why, by any stretch of the mind, should you be required to to map complete a level 80 zone to unlock a trait that you should have feasible access to at level 36? I have 8 level 80 characters, all with 100% on Frostgorge, that I do to level from 75-80 and to get level 70+ exotic gear. Why should I be doing the same thing to unlock a trait that I really should have access to before I even enter this map? I know I can spend gold to buy a trait outright, but come on, the concept is clearly aimed at getting people to explore the game because the cost is prohibitive.

I have two suggestions for making this a little more tenable:
First, as mentioned previously, place more unlock requirements in zones of lower level (Adept unlocks in 15-25 zones, Master in 50-60, etc) so a character can actually have some traits available when they first qualify for them. I actually think this is a requirement because the whole system is completely FUBAR right now.

Second, make multiple methods for unlocking traits across the various game modes. Have one set in WvW, one in PvE, another in Dungeons, etc. I hate WvW and the thought of having to run Arah for a trait makes me throw up in my mouth a little. Actually, I would probably be okay with dungeon running as a requirement if it was literally any other dungeon.

I had purchased a character slot in anticipation of the patch and was very eager to try out the new systems. However, seeing just how ridiculous the trait unlocks are has completely discouraged me from starting any new characters at all. I will certainly not be buying gems again in the future until this is rebalanced.

Firebaall.5127:

Wow… Stupid decision to require events to unlock trait progression.

At first, I was impressed. It looked like the only skills requiring additional quests were the grandmaster traits. Suddenly, patch….and now everything requires an unlock or gold sink. Way to take one step forward Anet, and three backwards.

……this is not alt friendly.

It’s even less new-player friendly. And a lot will be put off. But some will pay real money to buy gems to unlock the traits they want – and, at the end of the day, those are the people that pay ANet to keep the game going (and what I strongly suspect this change is aimed at). Those of us that don’t spend real money from time to time (as in any “free to play” MMO, the vast proportion of us) provide a degree of vibrant community that makes the game more worth playing for the ones that do pay – but we ought to recognise that, other than that, after a while we’re effectively parasites. If it’s what they’re up to, though, it’s a risky gamble – if people start leaving en masse because of the changes, the game could easily get a reputation as not worth the money. Similarly if the “new” flavour puts off people who might have joined after the China launch. And it’s a lot easier to lose a good reputation than a bad one.