Guild Wars 2

Nerelith.7360:

You say :“1.) One does not select or unlock the given trait.”

then say “Obviously, the first option is considered to be out of the question implicitly.”

I do not accept that it is implicite at all. There are many people that will Look over some traits, decide either that they do not fit their build concept. Are too onerous for them to aquire, too expensive to buy at this time, and will forgo many traits.

Not every player is a completionist that needs EVERY trait as soon as they are able to use those traits.

I Played EverQuest. And In that game you needed to hunt down the spell vendors for your spells so at say level 19, you had to go into a zone that may or may Not have mobs 5 to 7 levels higher than you were. Also you might or might Not have all the gold necessary to buy all your spells. SOME spells required you to kill certain mobs over and over. And some required you to hunt down crafing compnents to research the spell, that was on RNG… the Higer your research trait the better chance of crafting the spell…but sometimes you had continuous failures… trust me.. gw2 has made it easy in comparison.

So the idea that traits MIGHT require that things be done that a typical character of that level may not be able to do, is not new. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad decision, just an unpopular one.

And yet again what you’ve stated has no relevance.

Not selecting a given trait is considered out of the question because it is implied that the given trait has synergy with one’s build and is considered necessary for character functionality.

Whether or not you can skip certain traits is again irrelevant to the topic.

And the EverQuest example… more irrelevance. Just because it’s “harder” in one game to unlock skills does not mean that GW2 should follow the same model with traits.

Actually, I’d argue it’s extremely easy to unlock the traits. None of the content in this game aside from some of the major bosses is particularly challenging unless you make it so.

The problem is that again, we’re dealing with literal impossibilities of acquisition upon reaching the level requirements and extensive hassles to get such traits without spending what is honestly an absurd amount of money. Frankly, this is bad design.

And EQ found success in that model likely because the competition was so low when the game was successful. I’d challenge a game to implement a grind system to unlock what should be necessary content and succeed in the Western market.

Grinds are not successful in the Western game market these days. That’s why GW2 is the way it is, and why the US/EU almost never sees most Korean games. Extending the period until acquisition is not a successful model to follow in this market demographic, especially when the game is and has been marketed as being fair throughout and allows for a more casual audience.

This change does not abide to that philosophy, and therefore must be changed on some level to do so.

I said earlier in this thread that I could not contrive a proper expression of my dismay at this totality of particular change. I still can’t.

But the last two of my 14 Friends and Family Guild members that still played, only because I still played, informed me yesterday that they have come up with a definitive word for their feelings.

That word is “Goodbye.”

Not even for you, Jak, will we continue to play Guild Wars 2. This is the couple that includes my Best Man from my wedding 25 years ago. I think if things were bad enough he would give, not lend, but just give me money. But they won’t play this game anymore. If I did not enjoy WvW so much goodbye would be my word too.

I really hope we see the absolutely necessary changes to this system. A lower entre point – Level 25 perhaps, if they feel it just has to be raised from 20.
-And-
Three level appropriate ways to get any trait. One for PvE, one for WvW, and one for the various PvP.

If this system is not reworked and improved it is certain I will never buy another character slot, since I won’t be leveling any more alts. Not even five of the six alts I created pre-patch, to have grandfathered characters. Leveling just the one so far has been such a sharp diminution of fun, even with just the trait levels being so stingy. If it is fixed, maybe some people will return.

My greatest sadness is for the truly new players who won’t know what it was like under the old system. Who will cheerfully shell out tons of real coin to convert to gold, and farm champ bags to get the reams of extra skill point scrolls to help pay the skill point costs, so they can just buy the traits they think they need.

The only possible rational explanation of the current situation is gem sales. The people who designed this just can’t be as out of touch as the unlock task list suggests. CANNOT BE. Look for a Gem Store item that lets you donate Skill Points to other players. That will complete the golden circle. The Gold in the circle I reference is not a color, but rather a mechanism of exchange and a store of value (less inflation of course.) But it will be a lot less of MY gold. A LOT LESS.

HORRIBLE. As i said earlier in the thread the new trait restricts so much experimenting and has made game play much less enjoyable, i had a lvl 32 warrior and was experimenting with my traits to find a cool build that i like, now i cant do anything unless i get to 80 to fully experiment (5Lvls for 1 point..makes the 4 levels in between so slow and boring ‘Grinding’).
I’ve also notice a decline in players both through out my guilds and other maps, at my regular playing time at least 60-130 across both guilds were online and i was able to gain some help as i’m fairly new, now only 5-10 are on, this expanding across a 6-hour time frame(less chance to get help). Most of whom have decided not to play and are waiting for a roll back to the old trait system, which i’m going to do also as i grinding wasn’t in this game apparently.

Unlocking traits CAN be a good idea if it was set up with actual common sense, otherwise it’s just useless with this system.
Real big let down with this ‘Update’.

Just saying my 2 cents that it should probably be rolled back, no point fixing something that’s not broken. Kinda like what happened to Youtube.
Until then i’ll join my friends in just waiting for the next bit of News.
New Trait System: So bad it’s a joke.

I can certainly see, I believe, the thinking behind making traits require completing certain content to unlock, and the desire to add more zest to leveling after level 30. The unlock system is — superficially — like the GW system of unlocking elite skills by killing certain bosses or earning extra stat points via certain quests. However, there are some major differences:

• GW bosses were all in instances that could be completed by players solo, using henchmen or heroes when necessary. This meant that the elite skill you wanted was available on demand. At least some of the new trait unlocks, published in concert with mega-server, are anything but on demand.
• Most elite skills in GW were in max level areas. However, the Elite skills were never meant to be lower-level options. With the flat leveling curve in GW, this was not that much of an issue. Requiring map completion of a level 70-80 area for an adept trait (usable at level 36) is so silly that I could not believe my eyes.
• Elite skills were options. Traits are an integral part of the unlock process. Traits remind me more of the additional 30 stat points available in GW. In Prophecies, the extra points were not available until deep in the game — Crystal Desert for 15, then the Shiverpeaks for the rest. In Factions, you could get them before leaving the starter island. In Nightfall, you could get them before doing most of the content on the starter island. For some strange reason in GW2, ANet chose to move in the opposite direction by backloading trait availability.

Regardless, I have two reactions to the trait changes.

1. I dislike the backloading and placing unlocks on meta event content that I find tedious and headache inducing due to ANet’s unwillingness or inability to provide an effects slider.
2. Fan reaction makes me think that ANet is currently feeling what was conveyed in the words of Dan Fogelberg:

“Changing horses in the middle of the stream
Gets you wet, and sometimes cold.”

Uncover a section of Cursed Shore to unlock a grandmaster trait.
Obtain 100% completion in Frostgorge Sound to unlock an adept trait.

This really says it all as far as the quality of this new system goes. In what universe does this make sense to anyone?

Shigeruken.2947:

So I just rolled a new character for the first time since I started a few weeks ago.
I didn’t realise that you can’t even view your traits at low level. That’s ridiculous.

Unless you look up a character builder online, you cannot plan anything about your class beyond your skills. That means new players are completely in the dark on what equipments they should be using until whenever the traits tree unlocks (which I assume is level 30) unless they seek advice from other players or use third party tools.

That annoys me.

This is as it has always been. Just as you cannot see any of the 3 skillpoint utility skills, til you have obtained 5 1 Point skills. then you need to unlock 5 3-point skills to see the 5point skills.. etc.

Also we were never able to see the traits til level 11. Because that is when the trait system opened up before. Now we do not see them til 30, because the trait systen did not open up til 30. There has been No change as to when we see the traits. We still see them when the trait system opens up, … before at 11, now at 30.

pixiedancer.1526:

It feels like longevity for the sake of longevity, in short, GRIND GRIND GRIND. There wasn’t anything wrong with the old system, something that wasn’t broken was fixed because x amount of players were “apparently” clueless ( but I’m pretty sure it has to do with that asian market.) and specced 5/5/5/5/5. The people that actually knew what they were doing are being punished, on top of that as others have pointed out it’s an absurd amount of skill points and gold for new players.

You should probably take down that manifesto, because at the moment I’m swinging a sword, I’m swinging a sword again and again and again. Grinding isn’t content, it’s a cheap carrot on a stick gimmick. Guild Wars II: Simon’s Quest.

Yes I feel the same about the vanished manifesto now.

Lucky I have 7 toons at 80, I will not be making an 8th to have 1 of each class. I burned out on games that have features like this, and gw2 was such a cool change….was.

Already I see it, the 5/5/5/5/5 build idea. Or less. It is in a way horrifying.

I see it in chat now as I explore; I wander from zone to zone and do the things I like in my favorite areas. It has been cool to see maps populated which previously were pretty empty. With this, I have seen much more chat.

Arguments are typical now. The pro uber gamers are having a party putting down anyone who dislikes the changes, and in fact think they are too easy and hopefully Anet will increase the costs and difficulty. At the same time, they have said what we really need now is not just a way to inspect gear, but builds and traits. They feel the new system is great because it will weed out the “casuals” faster and improve the game.

Others are saying, who cares? It is a game just forget traits and get good gear it does not matter. Some have said they went to 80 and never used traits, they are for weak players who need a crutch. The skill points are better for utilities anyway too, they feel.

Others are saying just get 5/5/5/5/5 , it is not a real problem. You’ll have some traits and good players do not need to be carried by traits or builds anyway.

Really I see this as becoming worse the more I look at.

DeceiverX.8361:

Nerelith.7360:

You say :“1.) One does not select or unlock the given trait.”

then say “Obviously, the first option is considered to be out of the question implicitly.”

I do not accept that it is implicite at all. There are many people that will Look over some traits, decide either that they do not fit their build concept. Are too onerous for them to aquire, too expensive to buy at this time, and will forgo many traits.

Not every player is a completionist that needs EVERY trait as soon as they are able to use those traits.

I Played EverQuest. And In that game you needed to hunt down the spell vendors for your spells so at say level 19, you had to go into a zone that may or may Not have mobs 5 to 7 levels higher than you were. Also you might or might Not have all the gold necessary to buy all your spells. SOME spells required you to kill certain mobs over and over. And some required you to hunt down crafing compnents to research the spell, that was on RNG… the Higer your research trait the better chance of crafting the spell…but sometimes you had continuous failures… trust me.. gw2 has made it easy in comparison.

So the idea that traits MIGHT require that things be done that a typical character of that level may not be able to do, is not new. That doesn’t mean it’s a bad decision, just an unpopular one.

And yet again what you’ve stated has no relevance.

Not selecting a given trait is considered out of the question because it is implied that the given trait has synergy with one’s build and is considered necessary for character functionality.

Whether or not you can skip certain traits is again irrelevant to the topic.

And the EverQuest example… more irrelevance. Just because it’s “harder” in one game to unlock skills does not mean that GW2 should follow the same model with traits.

Actually, I’d argue it’s extremely easy to unlock the traits. None of the content in this game aside from some of the major bosses is particularly challenging unless you make it so.

The problem is that again, we’re dealing with literal impossibilities of acquisition upon reaching the level requirements and extensive hassles to get such traits without spending what is honestly an absurd amount of money. Frankly, this is bad design.

And EQ found success in that model likely because the competition was so low when the game was successful. I’d challenge a game to implement a grind system to unlock what should be necessary content and succeed in the Western market.

Grinds are not successful in the Western game market these days. That’s why GW2 is the way it is, and why the US/EU almost never sees most Korean games. Extending the period until acquisition is not a successful model to follow in this market demographic, especially when the game is and has been marketed as being fair throughout and allows for a more casual audience.

This change does not abide to that philosophy, and therefore must be changed on some level to do so.

The problem isn’t that there is more competition only. That is only part of the issue.

The problem is, that the MMO genre is filled with players that if they had played before would never have put up with what was required of them from an mmo of quality.

I will explore only 1 thing that was good in EverQuest that would NEVER be tolerated by today’s gamers.

Slower levelling. and I mean so slow, you could play consistenly … for MONTHS before reaching cap level.

EverQuest’s economy made sense because while armor was only available at certain levels…. players spent SO LONG in those levels, that it made sense to craft. It made sense to go out and collect furs to sell to leatherworkers…who then went and crafted the armor. The GDP of EverQuest was Once calculated as # 27 when compared to actual nations In the RL. Because levelling was slower.

Back then the game began at level 1. Was challenging from level 1. Not " The game begins at 80."

Today’s gamers wouldn’t sit still for a better, more challenging game, a slower game. Today’s gamers would not know what makes an MMO a GOOD MMO. and if a game company tried to implement something that made it better by making it more challenging for example, they would run In droves for an easier game. Because unfortunately, for many of today’s gamers Easier = better.

In my opinion…. Slower, More challenging… = better.

Sometimes the best thing for a game is to make it harder. Not easier.

FrozenStarRo.7240:

Am I the only one feeling this could, in the long run, lead to sub-par builds? Like players just unlocking whatever traits they find easier to do without factoring in how efficient those may be given their equipped stats and weapon choices?

Absolutely.

This new system doesn’t allow a new player to experiment due to the huge cost (either in skill points or in time spent unlocking) of traits. New characters will either run with traits that are easy to unlock, or cookie-cutter builds with traits that are safe to spend your hard-earned skill points on.

Not everyone likes doing dungeons or 100% completing maps, so new players (or old players like me with new characters) will have to be very careful how to spend their hard-earned skill points, or make due with whatever the game hands them out.

It is a very limited system, and doesn’t encourage experimenting at all, unless you rolled your character before the patch and thus have most of your traits unlocked.

Got my traits nice and easy, no bugged event at all…cannot recognize the OP’s complains..
About experimenting..that stops as soon as a player finds the right combination for him/herselves..so calling the “lack of experimenting” limited is void IMO.

I mean this in the most respectful manner, but is there truly no one supervising these things? I can understand someone making a bad judgement call and pulling a snafu. Too little sleep or not paying attention. It is understandable.

But is there no one supervising things before giving the green light to go ahead with things?

This must have been mentioned a few times in other threads but I must bring it to the limelight again: why does a level 36 skill ask for level 36 players to do a level 59 storyline mission? Why does a level 36 skill ask players to do a 100% map completion of a level 80 map?

Was there no one checking on traits, someone, say, who plays the game, that read this and went back to the team who was working on the traits and told them ‘You know, what you have here, it does not make sense. How can you expect a level 36 character to go do a level 59 storyline mission or clear a level 80 map?’

If the answer is ‘who cares, they can buy the skill at the trainer’ then things are weird. The new skill system is to have players go and explore the world. If the premise of it is ‘who cares, they can go buy the skill at the trainer’ does it not make the whole new system flawed at (stupid censorship filter) its very core?

Dare I say, lethally flawed?

Taygus.4571:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Taygus.4571:

ProtoGunner.4953:

Is that so? But still. You level to 80 within a week if you play normally. So what’s the problem if you have to wait a bit until you have fully developped? It shouldn’t be a problem to do without certain traits until 80.

play normally? Whats “normal”?
and how many hours is that?

you’re “week”, is different to my week.

Sorry for the typo. But yes, of course I made my thoughts about ‘normally’. There are people with less time who need – let’s say – more than a month. But then those people could complain that it takes ‘months to reach max level’ as well.

Again, you’re throwing timelines around without any hours.

How many hours does it take you, doing WHAT, in game to level from 1-80.

In fact, create a new character now and tell us all exactly how many hours it takes you. Then we can talk timelines.
_
The issue isnt leveling to 80, its that trait unlocks are boring/out of reach for the level they are meant to be accessible. Even if some people can level quicker than others, it doesnt change this fact.

It makes no sense, if one person playes 5 minutes every year it takes yeras to hit 80. If you play 15 hours a day it takes a couple of days. What do you want to hear?

Maybe I was a bit rude. Having 7 80ies and one in the 70ies (all classes) and not planning to create another chracter I am not affected by this new trait system. Only for the XIII-traits.

But to be accurate: you need around 50- 80 hours of normal play to hit 80. If you play only one hour a week, an MMO isn’t simply for you. The trait unlock system makes not much sense, of course. But on the other hand: just wait for max level, you can’t be taken serious under 80 anyways.

HappyDale.5398:

Besides the fact the Adept levels traits need to start to be unlock at level 11. Through low level map completion, low levels bosses (Oak, Bandit), and low level Jumping puzzles, and personal story. That by the time you are level 36 you already have a fair about of trait unlocked, to experiment with. Then by level 42 most if not all Adept level traits should be unlocked. Then again By level 48 you should have a descent amount of Master level traits unlock to start messing with.

Yes. 100%, yes. 30 levels of auto attacking is just not the way to do things. Again, why is there no supervisor checking on things before giving the green light. I can imagine a non-player programer treating GW2 as a job and who is not into actually playing the game, just designing, but is there no quality control? Someone to say 30 levels of autoattacking will be dull for players?

Players want variety and to explore. For those who do not there are signet builds and that is fine too, but the rest can mess with things.

AND! ABOVE ALL! Starting at level 11 would immediately give the players something to aim. They could start unlocking skills right away by killing a boss here, completing a map there, finishing a storyline.

Why 30 levels of dullness? Why push things back? Why slow thing down? What was the purpose? Who thought of it? Why was there no dev who actually plays the game (instead of the aforementioned dev who is not a gamer but makes games, a distinct difference) who spoke out against this? If there was, why was he not heard?

If you take into account the 1 hour per level if playing normally – then its about 30 hours of dull.
If a minor trait can be called exciting that is, otherwise its a weeks work of dull, yes players will be recommending this to their friends hardcore.
“man! i swung a sword for 36 hours! woohoo! now i can bleed on crits!”.

Hello everyone, hello A-net.

I have been thinking a lot… The trait changes what to make of it? I understand in GW1 we had elite skills, but in GW1 it was quite different, I’d say in gw1 you had to travel all over the world for skills. I can remember needing that one skill for which I had to go all trough the world, on the other had GW1 had such a thing as runners that would run you there for not to much money. You could also run yourself and traveling with henchies would go quite fast after heroes came it was even faster!

Now I can see in GW2 it’s more of an mmo with areas something trough which you walk but use waypoints, God praise the waypoints. What I have noticed however and the reason why I quit this game before for a year.. Endgame content, at lvl 80 I had not much to do, besides exploring. However why explore, I do not want that legendary I do not care for legendaries. The gift of exploration does not matter to me, thus I was left with nothing to do.

If unlocking traits would give lvl 80 something to do and it has to do with exploring, how does it differ from exploring for a legendary? A legendary is optional it’s the cream or the cherry on top of the cake, this whilst trait points are the backbone of the cake. I need my trait points. Just now I rolled an engineer and I was following this guide they speak of traits at lvl 20 traits that would enhance my bomb kit. Also the author tells me to steer away from the flamethrower or grenades as I cannot take the traits for that til around lvl 60. Well I cannot follow the guide, because I basicly have to get to lvl 80 to get it all. Now I would like to ask in the engineer class. How do new players become aquinted with flamethrower/grenade kits etc?

I understand if you use the bomb kit at like lvl 20 or so, go for flamethrower at lvl 40 or whatever because of trait points, now you need to get to lvl 80 and your stuck with a lot of kits what I am saying here is as a newbie you cannot gradually get used to your kits. No you get them all at once, of course I can run around with a flamethrower but it wouldn’t be as good as with the traits and in that case the rifle is stronger. Thus I am lvl 51 now and still havn’t used a single kit. Oh wait I used the bomb kit once for a underwater veteran.

I am quite sure other classes might have they’re struggles to a mesmer might do! Maybe a necro that relies on minions I do not know much about those two classes. I had created of every class one character except for the engineer. So I am looking at how the engineer works look up a guide and find out I cannot use that guide because of the trait points.

Anyway moving back to the backbone and trais, yes a legendary is end game content and you explore for that. For my traits I really hate exploring. Also the trait on my engineer that lowers the cooldown of rifle skills and such (sorry forgot the name.) Requires me to 100% complete a map for level 60-70. This whilst it is a trait that in theory could be ascessed on level 36? So what do I do with that? I cannot go there, and do hearts…

So I was thinking what could be done? You could drop the trait system, you could change it so that those traits are unlocked when doing bosses or lvl 1-15 15-25 or 30-35 maps/bosses/areas. Or you could say a map unlocks not one trait it unlocks one treet in every tree.

Let’s say I am a ranger and I finish a level 30 map, I will get a trait in markmanship, skirmishing, wilderness survival etc and so on.

Or what could be done but this would in my opinion kill the game completely. Just uplevel characters so they can on level 36 complete that level 60-70 map and get that rifle cooldown trait they so desire.

Now I can in theory buy the traits also, no need to do the 60-70 area that is nice. The minor ones are only 10 silver and 2 skillpoints after all. But is this not bullying new players? Is this not fining/punishing him for not purchasing guildwars 2 before the patch? At least it is from the perspective of people that have level 80ties and know the old system. If the system was like this from release to end no one would be bothered but now I am.

Not only does it require high level zones for low level traits, your forced to explore because you could buy them but skill points are something you do not have at lower levels. You need to save for that 30 skillpoint elite for those 25 skillpoint heals. And by the time I have skillpoints in abundance I am level 80 and have 150 hours of playtime or so.

Another problem is WVW, many people just like WVW I like wvw. As I said in the start I hate exploring, I always did even in gw1. I would go where to go for skills and get my build and never explore again til some new build popped up or a farming method. So I do play wvw a lot. I level in edge of the mists (great map by the way.) Uplvld people can play here nicely, and it does not hold back the wvw seriousness business.

However… Let’s say I level in edge of the mists because I hate exploring. I got two characters to level 80 by exploring and do not want to do it one more time. I will level in wvw I believe I got one or maybe two traits there. But now if I like wvw I have to run all over to a map explore it 100% and get that trait. Or I can just jump in wvw without any traits at all why not? And many might chose to do this. Which in my opinion has no benefits for the game nor the quality of the wvw experience. Nor is it fun to in pve do a dungeon with people that got 0 traits.

Also dungeons… the first dungeons must be harder like ascalon, because now there are less points availible. Leveling is slower for newer players since they dish out less dmge or have less surviability. I would like you all to reconscider this trait system. I understand you love this game and the content you created and you want to stimulate people to enjoy and go trough that content.

But here comes my problem lets say I start playing now, I will create 8 characters get them to level 80. Now I have to do the same maps 8 times. Or I can switch between maps I mean for 1-15 there are enough maps. But after that I have to go trait hunting complete the same trait 8 times, x ??? because I need all those traits. In the end it will be no more fun it will be a grind and you will give up most likely the third time. I do not want to do the same map 8 times. I want to run around enjoy myself wvw, do dungeons and relax. A game should be fun not a chore that’s why I do not go for legendaries or ascended gear, I do not care for it.

But now I feel like my playstyle got burdened of course I can buy the traits and I will buy them. Because it is only one character thankfully. But does not take away the fact I feel penalized for not wanting to explore. Of course if cook makes a nice dinner the cook would like to see everyone enjoy it. But let’s say there’s someone in the group that hates onions and the cook throw in onions a lot of them. And then expects that one person to eat as much as the rest or enjoy it as much as the rest, and he won’t… And so the cook decides to let him do all the dishes….

Is he then not being penalized for not liking onions? Should the cook not have said ‘alright this person does not like onions or is allergic to them (do not know if this is possible), I will leave the onions out for him.’ Of course it is a lot of work for the cook…

But who knows what the cook thinks? I could let him do the dishes or I could let him clean my house. This is how I see paying for the traits.

Of course you cannot give traits for free if others have to explore, but make it so that wvw also gets traits free. After killing so much mist defenders taking so many keeps etc. AFter killing the harpie/ veteran wurm. I would like to see some more different flavors, I would not like to see either buy or go explore.

So now I feel like the bullied kid that has to put on his coat and go stand in the cold cause he’s not as cool as the rest of the kids. A parent comes walking by and askes the kid what’s wrong, the kid explains it and the parent says he’s talking crap. Or won’t understand the kid.

Please look at the community look at new players… I would like to suggest the following. After seeing legendaries should be account bound after seeing you make a account bound wardrobe after making dyes shared amongst all characters.

Why not share the traits. If trait X needs you to complete map Y and another character has 100% world completion every new character he has made should have all traits. If I only complete one map that gives trait T I should have that trait on every characters.

I met the requirement once I do not want to do it 8 times. Would that be acceptable?

Note: I also know that that creature from 11-79 have been lowered in stats to account. But players will feel less strong psychologicaly. Of course those that have been leveling and now went from 20 traitpoints to 1 or such. For new players for in the months to come they would not notice and not care. I am just adding this as an argument because it hurts some players those that havn’t had full 80ties etc.

And wvw upscaled people became even weaker! Also I hope to get an reply or something, sorry for the very long post but I wanted to convey my arguments and my feelings. I am sure some agree with me!

I am leveling a new thief to try this system. My experiences so far:

I’m level 31 atm, at level 36 I’ll buy my first adept trait. Thinking ahead I decided to work towards my new traits so that when I hit level 36 I can buy one of the three traitlines I picked.

- One trait asks me to go, at level 36, to Iron Marches, a level 60 are, and kill a champion.

- Another trait on a different line asks me, at level 36, to go and finish a level 59 storyline mission.

- The third adept trait I want from a third line asks me, at level 36, to do a 100% map explore of Mount Maelstrom, a level 44-55 area.

- The build uses two adept traits, so I can go fetch that second adept trait instead. It asks me to do a 100% map complete of Fields of Ruin, a level 30-40 area. As anyone who has played GW2 they know these maps with a disparity in levels is a good way to quickly face levels +8, so I suppose I will not have it ready for level 36 either.

Kanto.1659:

I am leveling a new thief to try this system. My experiences so far:

I’m level 31 atm, at level 36 I’ll buy my first adept trait. Thinking ahead I decided to work towards my new traits so that when I hit level 36 I can buy one of the three traitlines I picked.

- One trait asks me to go, at level 36, to Iron Marches, a level 60 are, and kill a champion.

- Another trait on a different line asks me, at level 36, to go and finish a level 59 storyline mission.

- The third adept trait I want from a third line asks me, at level 36, to do a 100% map explore of Mount Maelstrom, a level 44-55 area.

The saving grace is that the build uses two adept traits, so I can go fetch that second adept trait instead. It asks me to do a 100% map complete of Fields of Ruin, a level 30-40 area.

I feel you. I’m trying to level an engineer, but hell, it’s a mess.

Hystery.8415:

Kanto.1659:

I am leveling a new thief to try this system. My experiences so far:

I’m level 31 atm, at level 36 I’ll buy my first adept trait. Thinking ahead I decided to work towards my new traits so that when I hit level 36 I can buy one of the three traitlines I picked.

- One trait asks me to go, at level 36, to Iron Marches, a level 60 are, and kill a champion.

- Another trait on a different line asks me, at level 36, to go and finish a level 59 storyline mission.

- The third adept trait I want from a third line asks me, at level 36, to do a 100% map explore of Mount Maelstrom, a level 44-55 area.

The saving grace is that the build uses two adept traits, so I can go fetch that second adept trait instead. It asks me to do a 100% map complete of Fields of Ruin, a level 30-40 area.

I feel you. I’m trying to level an engineer, but hell, it’s a mess.

So am I I got to lvl 20 exploring after that I went edge of the mist level 52 now. In the third day so good luck!

Went from 1 to 20 on day 1. From 20 tot 47 on day 2 with eye of the midge My goal is to get 80 today

Victory.2879:

I predict the rise of the untraited level 80, which you will see in your dungeon group, pve, and wvw, and which you will have no way of knowing until they keep wiping or causing the group to wipe.

‘why don’t you have xyz trait’ ‘I can’t complete the event’.

You don’t need to be a psychic to see this on the horizon ;P

Hystery.8415:

I feel you. I’m trying to level an engineer, but hell, it’s a mess.

My two 80s are mesmer/engineer. I feel like I dodged a bullet, man, especially with mesmer.

Once a character has completed the action required to unlock a trait, all other characters should have their trait that it unlocked with the same action also unlocked in PvP regardless of profession, and the cost of it in the trainers reduced for the PvE/WvW unlock.

Otherwise, the more characters you have, the more of a chore unlocking all traits becomes.

Here’s the feedback:

Getting Traits unlocked by doing Temples with the current Megaserver system sucks. There is no other way to say it. It sucks. Especially when you have multiple alts and the temples in question are almost always uncontested these days.

You guys were becoming alt friendly up to this point. Now it’s actually punishing to have multiple characters.

DO something about it…

The issue still is, levels of requirements of traits are not balanced to character level.

Level 35 adept should not be having to complete level 50 or 80 maps at that level.
Level 35 adept should not have to go into wvw for pve traits.
Level 60, for that matter should not have to complete level 80 map zones either.
Simple.

Balance the traits around the levels of the characters doing them, that’s all we ask.
Something that’s usually done in most mmos,
you know, standard things.
Why is this not fixed yet, Anet?

Sephrye.1628:

The issue still is, levels of requirements of traits are not balanced to character level.

Level 35 adept should not be having to complete level 50 or 80 maps at that level.
Level 35 adept should not have to go into wvw for pve traits.
Level 60, for that matter should not have to complete level 80 map zones either.
Simple.

Balance the traits around the levels of the characters doing them, that’s all we ask.
Something that’s usually done in most mmos,
you know, standard things.
Why is this not fixed yet, Anet?

This is the most egregiously bad part of the trait system right now. Worse than the temple traits requiring you to fail defense, because at least a temple event looks good on paper if you don’t think all the consequences through.

How did they put the requirements for level 35 traits in 50-80 zones and think “Yeah, that’s balanced.” How completely out of touch with reality are they?

cakesphere.5910:

Sephrye.1628:

The issue still is, levels of requirements of traits are not balanced to character level.

Level 35 adept should not be having to complete level 50 or 80 maps at that level.
Level 35 adept should not have to go into wvw for pve traits.
Level 60, for that matter should not have to complete level 80 map zones either.
Simple.

Balance the traits around the levels of the characters doing them, that’s all we ask.
Something that’s usually done in most mmos,
you know, standard things.
Why is this not fixed yet, Anet?

This is the most egregiously bad part of the trait system right now. Worse than the temple traits requiring you to fail defense, because at least a temple event looks good on paper if you don’t think all the consequences through.

How did they put the requirements for level 35 traits in 50-80 zones and think “Yeah, that’s balanced.” How completely out of touch with reality are they?

Yeah it’s absurd.
The ones that require you to fail an event, that takes hours or so to respawn, are equally of bad design.

It’s like whoever thought this up, never played their own game normally or even at all, or any mmo.
Or maybe they’re the type that rushes to 80 or just instantly became 80 with admin stuff, and don’t care about the 1-79 portion of their game being balanced for anyone else.

Anyone who plays or designs mmos normally, knows that level balance is important for their game.
It’s like basic common sense.

@those comparing Gw2 trait gathering to Gw1 skill capturing

Theses two systems are vastly different from each other. I don’t even understand how people can even compare the acquisition methods….

MithranArkanere.8957:

Otherwise, the more characters you have, the more of a chore unlocking all traits becomes.

Yeah, looks like they don’t want to sell char slots anymore. My friend and I had plans to reroll some classes on different races before this patch, now neither of us wants to do so anymore with this unreasonable trait unlock system. And this coming from someone with 10 char slots currently, 5 of which were bought and paid for from gemstore. Glad I had 6 80s prior to this and some traits unlocked on my 2 mid-40s to not have to worry. Just getting the temple/boss ones are proving difficult to unlock on all 6 of the 80s. No clue what the situation would be for my unplayed level 2 though.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I can certainly see, I believe, the thinking behind making traits require completing certain content to unlock, and the desire to add more zest to leveling after level 30. The unlock system is — superficially — like the GW system of unlocking elite skills by killing certain bosses or earning extra stat points via certain quests. However, there are some major differences:

• GW bosses were all in instances that could be completed by players solo, using henchmen or heroes when necessary. This meant that the elite skill you wanted was available on demand. At least some of the new trait unlocks, published in concert with mega-server, are anything but on demand.
• Most elite skills in GW were in max level areas. However, the Elite skills were never meant to be lower-level options. With the flat leveling curve in GW, this was not that much of an issue. Requiring map completion of a level 70-80 area for an adept trait (usable at level 36) is so silly that I could not believe my eyes.
• Elite skills were options. Traits are an integral part of the unlock process. Traits remind me more of the additional 30 stat points available in GW. In Prophecies, the extra points were not available until deep in the game — Crystal Desert for 15, then the Shiverpeaks for the rest. In Factions, you could get them before leaving the starter island. In Nightfall, you could get them before doing most of the content on the starter island. For some strange reason in GW2, ANet chose to move in the opposite direction by backloading trait availability.

Regardless, I have two reactions to the trait changes.

1. I dislike the backloading and placing unlocks on meta event content that I find tedious and headache inducing due to ANet’s unwillingness or inability to provide an effects slider.
2. Fan reaction makes me think that ANet is currently feeling what was conveyed in the words of Dan Fogelberg:

“Changing horses in the middle of the stream
Gets you wet, and sometimes cold.”

Excellent perspective from a long-time GW fan.

The real problem is that most of those trait requirements were designed around the old system, without Megaservers in mind at all.
That’s without those out of balance trait requirements that are just mind boggling.

I was looking forward to trait unlocks. I loved skill hunting in GW1.

I was sad that the unlock requirements are so lame. Not only are all the GM unlocks attached to zergfest temple events, they are the same for every class! I was expecting 40 unique unlock conditions for the new GM traits, not 5 different ones each repeated 8 times.

Plus some of the unlocks are just ridiculous, like completing the entire personal story to unlock a trait.

Why do I need to complete Frostgorge sound so I can unlock an adept trait?
It’s either do boring, time consuming tasks to unlock a trait or spend 43g and 360 skill points to unlock them all… but hey, at least I don’t have to pay 3g for those manuals anymore!

Traits sound like a bit of a pain now. I guess I’ll just go 1/1/1/1/1 until I get to 80 so that I can unlock all the others.

People keep repeating " to get this trait which is an adept trait I would need to complete bla bla zone which is a level 50 zone. " Then say that the fact that they have to do it that way is proof the system is out of whack.

The other possibility is maybe the ddevs don’t want you to have that particular trait til level 50.

Either way as i see it those that wish to unlock this trat have several options.

1. Wait til they can complete the map.
2. wait til they have the Money + skillpoint to buy the traut.
3. get friends to carry them through the entire zone.( Not likely but hey… some people have those types of friends.)

My position has always been that just because players feel they are entitled to have all traits unlocked at the level they are able to use them doesn’t mean the developers have to make it easy or even possible for them to do so.

it’s Not a bad design. All it does is keep you from having access to some traits til… a week or two later?

I Understand that many players want to have traits useable at level 36, to be accomplished by level 36. But here is where we disagree. I do not see that the devs have to rpovide all traits that are useable at level 36 in content that a solo player at 36 can accomplish, or even needs to be Possible at level 36.

I see No problem them making it a map completion even if it’s a level 50 or level 70 map.

THIS is where people say that “Game design is Bad”. To open a n adept trait useable by level 36, requires completion of a level 50 map, or a level 70 map, or a level 55 story. I disagree. Levelling is easy, get to the level you can accomplish the task at hand, or …pay for the traits at level 36. No one says that you HAVE to have EVERY trait by 36 that you can use at 36 In an Unchallenging way.

No one says the traits need to be cheap either. But that’s simply my opinion.

@Nerelith

So you’re fine with the death of build diversity from here on out? You just want cookie cutter builds for every single new player? That’s what this system is.

Nerelith.7360:

No one says that you HAVE to have EVERY trait by 36 that you can use at 36 In an Unchallenging way.

It’s not ‘we have to have every trait’. It’s ‘let us for god’s sake start working on them!’

The vast MAJORITY of adept traits are not attainable ‘the fun way’ – the gameplay way, before level 50. The vast majority. It’s not just one or two or even half that we’d have to do without; it’s more than half of the interesting gameplay systems we used to be able to play with gone. Kaput. Unavailable.

This makes playing the game decidedly less fun. And being forced to buy the traits from the trainer in order to even have much fun while leveling is a FAILURE.

Level 36 zones in this game are not ‘easy’. There’s a reason downscaling exists, Nerelith; it’s to keep the challenge level constant no matter where you are. We just finished up a story arc that was free to have events in zones ranging from kessex hills to lornar’s pass, while remaining challenging for even max level characters, because of downleveling.

BigfootArisen.6509:

@Nerelith

So you’re fine with the death of build diversity from here on out? You just want cookie cutter builds for every single new player? That’s what this system is.

As it is, some of the trait requirements are very nonsensical and very uneven on time/difficulty invested. This is very poor the perception of equity by the player base.

Traits are goals, now. This can be a good thing to keep some people playing. I know I’ll be chasing them when I want them. (Or I’ll buy them if I’m not in the mood. =P)

But, bad design is also un-fun design. …Well, actually, don’t blame the design, but the execution. There wasn’t enough internal communication, planning, and testing to fully pull off what the conceptual fun stuff should have been.

Rauderi.8706:

As it is, some of the trait requirements are very nonsensical and very uneven on time/difficulty invested. This is very poor the perception of equity by the player base.

Traits are goals, now. This can be a good thing to keep some people playing. I know I’ll be chasing them when I want them. (Or I’ll buy them if I’m not in the mood. =P)

But, bad design is also un-fun design. …Well, actually, don’t blame the design, but the execution. There wasn’t enough internal communication, planning, and testing to fully pull off what the conceptual fun stuff should have been.

The entire point of a game is for it to be fun. GW2 has been fun for me for all this time. I have one single character class left that is post-patch. That character is a warrior. I already attempted warrior before, but quit because it was boring, uninteresting play. Its even worse now with no traits. They should never have raised the trait system so high. They should have stuck with level 11 being the start, and then players could look at their options, and start working towards what they want. Not have no clue traits are even a thing until they reach level 30.

blakdoxa.7520:

@those comparing Gw2 trait gathering to Gw1 skill capturing

Theses two systems are vastly different from each other. I don’t even understand how people can even compare the acquisition methods….

GW2 trait hunting is superficially similar to GW elite skills — you do something in game to get something you can use with your build. It’s also superficially similar to the 30 extra stat points available in GW via questing. The differences you allude to are the point of contention.
______________________________________________________________

@ those saying that L36 abilities obtainable via doing content much later in the leveling process is fine, please answer these questions honestly.

• If a new game came out with this mechanic, what would the general reaction from the public be? Would the design be lauded as a great one?
• If the intent is to make certain adept traits unavailable until later in the leveling process, why allow them to be bought for coin and skill points?
• Normally, higher level content is going to be perceived as more difficult than lower level content. If two traits which are at the same tier — which would presumably mean they are approximately equal in value — are available through content playable at vastly different levels, is the system balanced appropriately?

Or have trait unlock account based. So once your alt is appropriate level to get into the next level of traits they’d be unlocked as long as you get them unlocked on your main toon.

IndigoSundown.5419:

GW2 trait hunting is superficially similar to GW elite skills — you do something in game to get something you can use with your build. It’s also superficially similar to the 30 extra stat points available in GW via questing. The differences you allude to are the point of contention.
______________________________________________________________

@ those saying that L36 abilities obtainable via doing content much later in the leveling process is fine, please answer these questions honestly.

• If a new game came out with this mechanic, what would the general reaction from the public be? Would the design be lauded as a great one?
• If the intent is to make certain adept traits unavailable until later in the leveling process, why allow them to be bought for coin and skill points?
• Normally, higher level content is going to be perceived as more difficult than lower level content. If two traits which are at the same tier — which would presumably mean they are approximately equal in value — are available through content playable at vastly different levels, is the system balanced appropriately?

Excellent questions! …and, sadly, ones I fear weren’t asked at the design table before the patch rolled out.

It’s not a game-killer for me, but I really hope they fix it.

Rauderi.8706:

IndigoSundown.5419:

GW2 trait hunting is superficially similar to GW elite skills — you do something in game to get something you can use with your build. It’s also superficially similar to the 30 extra stat points available in GW via questing. The differences you allude to are the point of contention.
______________________________________________________________

@ those saying that L36 abilities obtainable via doing content much later in the leveling process is fine, please answer these questions honestly.

• If a new game came out with this mechanic, what would the general reaction from the public be? Would the design be lauded as a great one?
• If the intent is to make certain adept traits unavailable until later in the leveling process, why allow them to be bought for coin and skill points?
• Normally, higher level content is going to be perceived as more difficult than lower level content. If two traits which are at the same tier — which would presumably mean they are approximately equal in value — are available through content playable at vastly different levels, is the system balanced appropriately?

Excellent questions! …and, sadly, ones I fear weren’t asked at the design table before the patch rolled out.

It’s not a game-killer for me, but I really hope they fix it.

Have to agree, both with your comment and Indigo’s post.

Ashen.2907:

Rauderi.8706:

IndigoSundown.5419:

GW2 trait hunting is superficially similar to GW elite skills — you do something in game to get something you can use with your build. It’s also superficially similar to the 30 extra stat points available in GW via questing. The differences you allude to are the point of contention.
______________________________________________________________

@ those saying that L36 abilities obtainable via doing content much later in the leveling process is fine, please answer these questions honestly.

• If a new game came out with this mechanic, what would the general reaction from the public be? Would the design be lauded as a great one?
• If the intent is to make certain adept traits unavailable until later in the leveling process, why allow them to be bought for coin and skill points?
• Normally, higher level content is going to be perceived as more difficult than lower level content. If two traits which are at the same tier — which would presumably mean they are approximately equal in value — are available through content playable at vastly different levels, is the system balanced appropriately?

Excellent questions! …and, sadly, ones I fear weren’t asked at the design table before the patch rolled out.

It’s not a game-killer for me, but I really hope they fix it.

Have to agree, both with your comment and Indigo’s post.

Me too!

This system is totally messy and unintuitive. I think the majority of my pve time is over here, certainly won’t be leveling again until these things are rethought. I’ll continue to spvp though.

Please change defending Lyssa’s temple to also grant the trait.
I’ve tried to get this one since release, camping it for hours, the temple has not been contested even once. I have 8 characters that need unlocking…
I could easily buy the trait it from my trainer, but it feels like skipping content. I prefer to actually play the game.

Please move the trait from Karka Queen to something that is available much more often, or even better remove her and the 2 really big bosses from this stupid schedule. The spawn times are well outside of most employed adults’ game time in Europe.

Please gate traits through level appropriate content. An example: Speedy Kits is the first trait recommended for engineers to make exploring Tyria more fun. By the time you can fulfill the requirement you are mostly done with exploring.

It is amazing to read some of this stuff.

Games age and die pretty quickly. The over riding concern for any mmo’s dev team after the honeymoon period, is to squeeze as much money out of the player base as possible before end times.

You know, it’s a job, not a community service or religion. Like everything else in our capitalist society, it all comes down to profit.

Problem is they accelerating the end times hence reducing overall potential profit

Only makes sense if the juice isn’t worth the squeeze currently and they want to kill it off.

I think the new system hurts new players a lot, I mean you have to wait till level 30 to start getting points, you have to either roam the world and fight bosses to unlock traits, and be forced into WvW for them as well, or have to pay a large sum of gold and skill points to unlock them. It costs 43 gold and 320 skill points to buy all the traits for your class… This will deter a lot of new players and even stop current players/veterans from making new characters. It’s fine to add new traits, but please give back the old system. Make the new traits cost money to buy or force us to unlock them, but to lock away all of them… and force that much money and skill points out of someone to get them? Or force them into WvW or something else they might not enjoy… It’s a little pathetic.

Dear Arenanet,

I’m not enjoying the new trait unlock system, two of my baby alts are under level 30, my heart sinks when I think of the hardships that they will have to suffer to reach their full potential. It feels like real life with ridiculously high tuiton fees for college.

Seriously, I wouldn’t want to be a new player in this game, I would like to talk to a person who just bought the game and has no precedent of what the game used to be a see what they think.

I would not, in any circumstances recommend this game to a new player. The barrier to entry is far too high.

Setting aside what I feel is obvious (frostforge sound? seriously?), all characters need access to some minimal traits immediately upon hitting 36. If each trait line got 2 adept traits for free, and 1 master upon the appropriate level, that would be a presumably quick fix to a very large problem.

Vio.2506:

Problem is they accelerating the end times hence reducing overall potential profit

Only makes sense if the juice isn’t worth the squeeze currently and they want to kill it off.

History shows that the squeeze can last for some time before the lights go out.

At this point it should be obvious that they need to steer veteran players towards the gem store. Seriously, up until now, they pretty much let you play for free once you bought the download.

But I agree that the current trait system is not going to work as intended. It is going to make new players frustrated, and cause veteran players to just sit on their 80’s unless rolling a key run or whatever.