Guild Wars 2

Eitri.2608:

The reason people are wondering why it’s taking so long is because it seemed like the trait overhaul was implemented quite quickly.

The changes were announced officially on March 20: https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/traits-unleashed-forty-new-traits-and-more/.

The changes came out April 15th: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-April-15-2014/first#post3957343.

It seems like they could re-overhaul the system quite quickly if they wanted to. “We hear your feedback,” is different from, “we acknowledge that there are these specific problems and we’re working to fix them.”

Anet should understand that the passionate feedback in this thread is valuable. The reason it’s here is because the game was better before this change. Many of us aren’t playing as much as we did before and thus not buying gems. We also aren’t recommending the game, which leads to lower sales.

I concur.

+1

Jana.6831:

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

16 days was done by one of the following.

a. Only unlocked a few traits and not all of them, to suit a certain build. Probably didn’t even finish a build.
b. Had an obscene amount of skill scrolls and enough gold to unlock all the skills from an alt. He will not be able to do the same for any other new characters because he won’t have the skill scrolls unless he saves up for another year before creating another character.
c. The character was created pre-April patch and was grandfathered in.

No, it is possible without buying a trait, except for one as that one is bugged.
BUT it requires a lot of knowledge about where to find help (websites) and how to do stuff in this game in general. Well and also luck as a lot of the traits aren’t soloable.

I haven’t given up on anet and hope that they realized that this system is a huge mistake and are working on something to make it better. That’s why I’m still keeping this thread alive as as long as it is I won’t give up hope, I guess. Well maybe in another 6 months I will lose hope no matter what.

It is possible to unlock all traits but I seriously doubt it can be done in 16 days. Unless he plays 12+ hours a day. Some of the events people get stuck waiting on for hours for just one event. Plus to level that fast he is in EotM the majority of his time. Don’t kid your self. If he unlocked every single trait he bought them with gold and skill scrolls.

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

It is possible to unlock all traits but I seriously doubt it can be done in 16 days. Unless he plays 12+ hours a day. Some of the events people get stuck waiting on for hours for just one event. Plus to level that fast he is in EotM the majority of his time. Don’t kid your self. If he unlocked every single trait he bought them with gold and skill scrolls.

It is possible, I basically did it with my necro, without EotM and without playing her 24/7 and without scrolls. That doesn’t mean that this system is good or anything, or that I believe this person really did it (sorry), just that it is possible to unlock all (but one) traits and to get to level 80 within 2,5 weeks.

Azzer.8137:

I for one like the new trait system a lot, it’s like in Gw1 where you had to go out in the world and use a signet of capture, but i guess most people today are entitled little idiots who don’t like to work for anything at all.

Also this is insane i know, but i know a way to get a traid withouth doing the event/boss/veteran/whatever.

ok here it comes…..

you can BUY it straight of a trainer! OMG!!!!! so insane!!! whaaaat so you are saying that i can actually just buy them instead of crying like a little kitten ?

Yes that is correct.

Hmm. Well in GW1 you got skills to start with so you could go out and capture the other skills.

Here we get 0 traits to start with.

Trait hunting is good, but dang it give us something to start with. I want to make more alts…I’d even buy more character slots but the whole “you can’t have any traits at all to start with” is really a pain. I’ve made a few characters since they implemented this and wind up buying a starting build and haven’t managed to fully get every trait on a single one of them yet. Yes, I’ve tried. Can’t experiment with builds if you don’t have traits. Or maybe their thought was here let them try something new and by something new we mean playing without traits.

felessan.9587:

Wolfheart.1879:

To re-iterate my concerns with my last post, and to do it in a less grouchy, rambling way (I get like that late at night. oops!), here are some questions which I feel are pertinent to this thread. Perhaps these questions could be passed along to the devs/whoever is higher up in these situations. The questions are based upon the trait system as it stands, aswell as recent Anet responses.

1) Give that one of the aims of the new system was to promote greater build experimentation, how do you feel the system has done compared to that objective?
2) Do you feel that the current way of acquiring traits, either through unlocking or buying, promotes that experimentation
3) Do you feel that the cost side of unlocking (probably more aimed at repeat characters) is a good balance for those levelling new characters and for new players.
4) What was the logic behind gating lower level traits behind higher level objectives?
5) Is it truly seen as unreasonable to ask for status reports on issues that have been a concern for over 6 months?
6) When it is stated that our feedback is being considered, what exactly does that mean? Is it just being filed away or is it being used to improve the system? Either way, how can we know, unless a meaningful update is given?
7) Do you feel the way in which these feedback threads from that time was handled, with the lack of response for months on end was handled appropriately?
8) With the obvious time pressures for new content, and as said with the post in the Communication Disappointment thread, is the addressing of a 6 month old a priority anymore?
9) How many people are working on the trait system at the moment? I understand that probably the same people do several jobs, so can there be some sort of statistic to show how much work has gone into the trait system from the development end in, say, the last 2 months?
10) Witht he heavy focus being on the new content, would that push the changing of an older system (traits) further back in priority. With that, can any change to the system in response to feedback be expected in, say the next 6 months, 1 year, 2 years?
11) If unable to answer that question, can you understand why that frustrates players and makes us assume we are being ignored? (that question wasn’t to put down a strict timescale, but to find an assurance that changes will happen. Can that assurance be given?
12) Would some form of account unlocking of traits, perhaps with a different cost that would be economical for altoholics, but enough of a sink to be substantial, be something that could be explored?

Perhaps some questions that Anet could mull over.

All great questions. I think I remember the specific answers to two of them, though I can’t remember where the original posts are.

4) The idea of locking traits behind increasingly difficult content is to provide a sense of progression. I think it is supposed to give a player more of a sense of reward as they level and as they explore. If the Adept tier covers level 30-60, the content in it should cover that entire level range, so you always feel like you have something of your level to do.

10/11) It has been said explicitly that company policy prevents them from giving time frames ever again. Gaile has said repeatedly that she (they?) understands our frustration with the little information we’re given and that we should trust that they are working on improvements. We’ve also gotten the closest thing to a confirmation we’ve had in over a year that something was going to happen with the trait system; it’s buried somewhere in this thread.

I didn’t see him asking for any specific time frames. He gave time frames stating we have been waiting for 6 months. At this point in time they should come out and say what they are or aren’t working on. Its not the living story so there isn’t any spoilers they need to worry about. If they honestly care about the players they should let them know if they are working on fixing some of the trait unlocks, or if they are looking at overhauling the entire system again, or if they think it is fine the way it is. Those are simple questions with easy yes or no answers that don’t need to have any specifics attached(even though we’d all love to hear them).

the only reason they won’t say anything is because no they aren’t fixing any more trait unlocks, no they aren’t going to overhaul the system again(or roll back to old version), and finally do they think its ok the way it is, doesn’t really matter because they aren’t going to do anything anyways.

Edited to add I feel this way because the white knights have told us things are this way and they aren’t going to change. And they would be the ones to know ;-)

It’s more confused than it was before.. oh godkitten it.
Just when I almost understood the old traits system and how it worked~ we get a new one!
Ooohh pffff...

I logged in to find after almost a year to find my ranger’s traits refunded and the new system in place.

First, let me say that I do think it will be easier for new players to learn how to pick traits.
Second, I think doing events for traits is a good thing…honestly, fun to do them with your guild.
Third, MMOs change all the time. SWTOR, the game we play most often, is completely redoing their abilities in an expansion coming out on December 1st. I know most people will hate it but there are things you have to get used to in life or go somewhere else..such as, my company selling our division to another company and we have no say in it. You change or you leave….goes for real life and the game.

I am starting to doubt we will ever see a change here for the better. anet made up their mind in the worst way.

Tere.4759:

I logged in to find after almost a year to find my ranger’s traits refunded and the new system in place.

First, let me say that I do think it will be easier for new players to learn how to pick traits.
Second, I think doing events for traits is a good thing…honestly, fun to do them with your guild.
Third, MMOs change all the time. SWTOR, the game we play most often, is completely redoing their abilities in an expansion coming out on December 1st. I know most people will hate it but there are things you have to get used to in life or go somewhere else..such as, my company selling our division to another company and we have no say in it. You change or you leave….goes for real life and the game.

Doing events for traits, sure. Doing map complete for a single adept-level trait? No.

I’ve been waiting for the Grenth event to be active for so long now.

Adding in the option to complete the defense event was nice, but farmers seem to want this event to fail, meaning I have to wait for the defense to pop, fail, and the event chain to restart. It’s very frustrating because I have to wait on the world and other players to get these traits.

It wouldn’t be so bad if I could trigger the events associated with my traits myself (like with skill challenges). However, all this waiting for someone or something I can’t control is positively upsetting.

Can we get any sort of update on changes to this system?

Cross.6437:

I’ve been waiting for the Grenth event to be active for so long now.

Adding in the option to complete the defense event was nice, but farmers seem to want this event to fail, meaning I have to wait for the defense to pop, fail, and the event chain to restart. It’s very frustrating because I have to wait on the world and other players to get these traits.

It wouldn’t be so bad if I could trigger the events associated with my traits myself (like with skill challenges). However, all this waiting for someone or something I can’t control is positively upsetting.

Can we get any sort of update on changes to this system?

I brought this up a while ago (see page X-5? X-10?). The trait hunt would hurt a lot less if we didn’t have to wait some horribly long time for some of them. The 100% map completions, the Orr events, the hidden event chains, the “where does this start” jumping puzzles…

Mark them on the map, clearly, and give them event triggers so we can do them.

Tere.4759:

I logged in to find after almost a year to find my ranger’s traits refunded and the new system in place.

First, let me say that I do think it will be easier for new players to learn how to pick traits.

You might have had your traits refunded but none of them were locked. Your toon was grandfathered in like all pre April 15th toons are.

Let us know how much you like the new trait system when you have leveled an alt to 80 under the new system, unlocking all traits.

Most of us are not complaining about the new trait system in theory. We are complaining on how this trait system has been implemented.

I have done it. I leveled a post patch guard to 80 with full traits (unlocking about 40 of them) and will never, ever do it again: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/54#post4467452

After filling my 5 character slots I was planning on purchasing more. With this trait system I’m not going to bother.

And I agree with those who say that this new trait system is very anti-new-player. I don’t understand how Anet can state that they were so concerned for new players that they completely revamped the leveling process yet they added this trait system that completely hoses new players.

FYI – I started a new Norn Ele : Took approx 150 hrs to get all traits -2( some WvW ones : eg kill grub, capture a tower).

I know this as I was interested in how long it would take.
Before I could map complete : 100% in about 120 hrs (I’m no speedy map completion dude- I enjoy doing the events).

Now I really would like to start another Ele – on a different race but 150 hrs to get useful traits and do all mapping again seems a little tiresome to having a useful char.

I Propose :
If I have a toon with that profession already 100% mapped and traits unlocked – we gain all other toons with the traits unlocked !

So if I start a Human Ele – I would have all traits unlocked and can do a fast level up and it’s ready to go.

The pain of doing all the trait / map exploration takes quite a while and I’m beginning to like Eles for various things and would love some more lvl 80 ones on my account. I have about 80 tomes of influence and how this trait thing currently works don’t see much point in using them.

Well, it’s been half a year with this thread, numerous ways to fix and improve this trait has been posted by community and clearly even whitest knights can’t deny there’s major problems with this new trait system and NPE.

Nothing plans heard from Anet after they implemented this. What’s with the radio silence are you having internal fights about this system along developers some siding with community that this is garbage and some are justifying that it took resources to make this trait system so we stick with it no matter what.

It’s okay to sometimes screw things up and rollback stuff, that’s the way to improve things. Being a stubborn just restricts most positive evolution and development.

Rauderi.8706:

Cross.6437:

I’ve been waiting for the Grenth event to be active for so long now.

Adding in the option to complete the defense event was nice, but farmers seem to want this event to fail, meaning I have to wait for the defense to pop, fail, and the event chain to restart. It’s very frustrating because I have to wait on the world and other players to get these traits.

It wouldn’t be so bad if I could trigger the events associated with my traits myself (like with skill challenges). However, all this waiting for someone or something I can’t control is positively upsetting.

Can we get any sort of update on changes to this system?

I brought this up a while ago (see page X-5? X-10?). The trait hunt would hurt a lot less if we didn’t have to wait some horribly long time for some of them. The 100% map completions, the Orr events, the hidden event chains, the “where does this start” jumping puzzles…

Mark them on the map, clearly, and give them event triggers so we can do them.

This is, imo, the biggest difference between trait unlocks and Elite unlocks in GW. GW bosses were on-demand. Even with the rotating bosses in Prophecies, entering the instance to see if they were at the nearest spawn point was under the individual player’s control. Not so with some of the unlocks in GW2.

TPMN.1483:

I Propose :
If I have a toon with that profession already 100% mapped and traits unlocked – we gain all other toons with the traits unlocked !

So if I start a Human Ele – I would have all traits unlocked and can do a fast level up and it’s ready to go.

The pain of doing all the trait / map exploration takes quite a while and I’m beginning to like Eles for various things and would love some more lvl 80 ones on my account. I have about 80 tomes of influence and how this trait thing currently works don’t see much point in using them.

Eh. That still makes it so that you’ll need to unlock all traits 7-8 times, 1 for each profession.

Even better:
1) Account bound. You do it once, never again. Accounts created before April 2014 should have all of their characters grandfathered in.
2) Re-evaluate unlock requirements, most of them are absurd and not worth the time or the cost (the skill point cost is way too high for someone who has to use skill points towards unlocking skills AND traits).

I’d also be open to buying Trait manuals, but in the following format:
- 5 Adept manuals, one for each trait line
- 5 Master manuals, one for each trait line
- 5 Grandmaster manuals, one for each trait line.

Each manual unlocks all Traits of that Tier within a Trait line. So the Critical Strikes Adept Trait Manual would unlock all Adept Traits in Critical Strikes for the Thief.

As an alternative to purchasing, you unlock the 15 Trait manuals through gameplay. Since you’re unlocking a lot more Traits per manual, having a longer time requirement to get them (but not absurdly long, the unlock requirements still need to make sense) is fair.

In terms of cost of purchase, only Gold. All 15 manuals should cost a total of 15g (obviously not 1g each, the lower tier Trait manuals should cost less per manual). 15g is easily made by level 80; I for one had 30g by the time I was around level 70 through normal gameplay.

A different option to the one I posted earlier a few pages back.

Rashy.4165:

I’d also be open to buying Trait manuals, but in the following format:
- 5 Adept manuals, one for each trait line
- 5 Master manuals, one for each trait line
- 5 Grandmaster manuals, one for each trait line.

I think this is one point they’ll refuse to change.
Their primary motivation appears to have been some misguided idea that awarding traits individually encourages players to learn them better (I assume this is what they refer to when they state that they think the trait change was successful in some respects).

I still beg the devs to try out this trait change for themselves.
They all need to do this with the stipulations that:

1. They can’t buy the traits
2. They must unlock all of the traits per character
3. They must use all five character slots and finish out each one on a different profession.

Then look at the metrics they have at their disposal:

• Are the majority of players unlocking or buying specific traits? If the majority is buying then go there and figure out why, then change it.
• What is the average number of traits per character unlocked/bought after the patch? Do these numbers support the build diversity and experimentation the trait change was supposed to bring about?
• Sales numbers for new character slots past the 5 free we received. Are the numbers stagnant, falling, or rising? Plot that graph pre-patch and post-patch.

There are plenty of other suggestions in this thread that are amazing. I tried a slightly different approach this time and implore the devs to do it themselves. If the fix is only being discussed at this point they will have plenty of time to achieve the goal of the suggestion before any action is decided on.

Infernia.9847:

I still beg the devs to try out this trait change for themselves.
They all need to do this with the stipulations that:

1. They can’t buy the traits
2. They must unlock all of the traits per character
3. They must use all five character slots and finish out each one on a different profession.

Then look at the metrics they have at their disposal:

• Are the majority of players unlocking or buying specific traits? If the majority is buying then go there and figure out why, then change it.
• What is the average number of traits per character unlocked/bought after the patch? Do these numbers support the build diversity and experimentation the trait change was supposed to bring about?
• Sales numbers for new character slots past the 5 free we received. Are the numbers stagnant, falling, or rising? Plot that graph pre-patch and post-patch.

There are plenty of other suggestions in this thread that are amazing. I tried a slightly different approach this time and implore the devs to do it themselves. If the fix is only being discussed at this point they will have plenty of time to achieve the goal of the suggestion before any action is decided on.

Really great idea. It’s easier to form a true opinion from personal experience rather than anecdotal statements. Unfortunately, this has been suggested several times over the..7 months now?..and who knows if that has been tried. Yes, as of tomorrow it will be 7 months.

I put a bold highlight on your last sentence to stress a point. Are they still at the discussion stage after all this time? Who knows. Gaile piped in saying that all our feedback is listened to, but what does that really amount to. It is over a half year now, nothing has been done, and there hasn’t been any communication on the subject. None. Making a statement, then having someone come back in to point to that statement, is not communication. It is a circular dance of avoidance.

Anyway. Even though I’ve put my financial support behind a company that has amazing communication that actually respond, in a meaningful and timely manner, to customer feedback, I follow this thread because of the investment I put in. Oddly, I find myself still surprised that nothing is being done. They’ve admitted there are problems, there is a enormously substantial amount of critical (yet helpful) feedback, and the yet the 7th month is about to tick by with no improvement.

You know, it’s kind of at that point where you’ve said everything in a thousand different ways, you’ve pleaded, raged, maybe got infracted because of simply trying to squeeze blood out of a stone..and nada. I simply don’t understand the mindset where any of this is ok with a company to treat your customers in this way. It astounds me.

Gaile said this feedback is useful, and to essentially keep up the good work. I say, after 7 months it’s time to see results. Or, at least be honest and communicate that the Trait system has been shelved and will remain as is. Either of those is not unreasonable.

I’m guessing they haven’t got resources to pull any changes to traits now that living story 2 is going on. Trait change came just before season 2 and now they are busy doing story.

When LS2 finishes I hope there will …finally…… be changes to traits. Changes that players have hoped for 7 months.

jucca.8219:

I’m guessing they haven’t got resources to pull any changes to traits now that living story 2 is going on. Trait change came just before season 2 and now they are busy doing story.

When LS2 finishes I hope there will …finally…… be changes to traits. Changes that players have hoped for 7 months.

No. There was a second feature patch right in the middle of S2. If they wanted to fix this, they could’ve done it then. I mean, they managed to course correct some major flaws that arose because of the second feature patch. The gem exchange has already gotten a massive overhaul due to feedback.

Infernia.9847:

I still beg the devs to try out this trait change for themselves.
They all need to do this with the stipulations that:

1. They can’t buy the traits
2. They must unlock all of the traits per character
3. They must use all five character slots and finish out each one on a different profession.

Then look at the metrics they have at their disposal:

• Are the majority of players unlocking or buying specific traits? If the majority is buying then go there and figure out why, then change it.
• What is the average number of traits per character unlocked/bought after the patch? Do these numbers support the build diversity and experimentation the trait change was supposed to bring about?
• Sales numbers for new character slots past the 5 free we received. Are the numbers stagnant, falling, or rising? Plot that graph pre-patch and post-patch.

There are plenty of other suggestions in this thread that are amazing. I tried a slightly different approach this time and implore the devs to do it themselves. If the fix is only being discussed at this point they will have plenty of time to achieve the goal of the suggestion before any action is decided on.

Add to this.
1. They must do it on a non-dev account.
2. They cannot ask their co-workers to fix bugged events, they have to do the bug report system, just like the rest of us.
3. They have to remain ‘unknown’ so they get just as much help as an average player for group events/dungeons. This INCLUDES not being in a guild to start, and not letting anyone know who they are, so they deal with the same stuff we all do.
4. They have to play exclusively to unlock traits, and get all of the traits unlocked.

Be fair, devs, do it like we do. Completely. Challenge issued!

So, hopefully Jon and Isaiah are still reading this a bit, I have some feedback on this due to leveling up a warrior through the new trait system.

What I do like about the system is earning traits through killing elites and champions, jumping puzzles, mini dungeons, and some one off events. This makes it feel a bit like GW1 elite skill capturing which is what I feel the intent of the system was. I particularly have liked so far the trait that involved finishing the Fountain of Rhand and Provenic Tombs mini dungeons, and finding splended chests at the end of Earth Lord’s Gap, those are fun because it’s something that you can go right into without having to wait on forming a group, but are likely to encounter other adventurers on the way that help you out, or you might struggle through it alone and see if anyone else is on in map to help you.

What I don’t like is traits that are earned through full map completion (it just takes too long if you’re doing it JUST for the trait, I have 2 100% map completion characters already I don’t feel compelled to do that on EVERY character. The “exploration” aspect of it is gone and now it feels like running through a grocery list, a chore.), and traits earned through an event CHAIN because chains are more moving parts and are possibly broken. Right now I CAN’T earn one of the traits in game because the event chain is stuck, I was forced to purchase it through the trainer instead, though I would have preferred to earn it in game. But I tried switching maps multiple times with no success (leading me to think there was only one instance of that map because it’s a ghost town (Fields of Ruin)). This may not be an issue in other maps that are more regularly populated since the traits tend to be on world bosses that everyone runs daily on a timer. Ogre Wars is just not one of them, so it sucks that a trait is attached to it. I’m also DREADING trying to find groups for story mode dungeons, I will probably be forced to buy those traits. Nobody runs story mode, even trying to find guildmates to do that is going to be a rare occurance, and PuGs will not likely take “on level” members, they’ll take 80’s.

I am also WARY of doing wvw traits for adept tier. I would be more comfortable if those were left for grandmaster tier. I understand that you CAN enter WvW as a low level character and be upscaled, however you’re at significant disadvantage against level 80’s and if you’re doing Obsidian Sanctum at level 36 you have a good chance of having your proverbial stomped in by a level 80, if you’re a new player that’s bound to get frustrating that you stand very little chance and will feel like you either have to just buy the trait, or run the JP in the middle of the night when its for sure dead, or hope you can get other people to help

PVP at that kind of level/gear gap is not something you can expect to just “git gud” and succeed at.

Now that all said what I believe is an equitable solution is to offer different options to unlock each trait. That way, people can opt for a PVE way of unlocking a trait that is currently PVP, or a person might opt to do WvW or kill a boss instead of completing a jumping puzzle if their Mario kungfu isn’t up to snuff.

Traits should have like 3 options aside from BUYBUYBUYBUYBUY.. a wvw objective, a boss/event, and either a jumping puzzle/mini dungeon/map completion.

Think of it like dailies/monthlies in which a person can choose the way they want to play

Keysha.2815:

Infernia.9847:

I still beg the devs to try out this trait change for themselves.
They all need to do this with the stipulations that:

1. They can’t buy the traits
2. They must unlock all of the traits per character
3. They must use all five character slots and finish out each one on a different profession.

Then look at the metrics they have at their disposal:

• Are the majority of players unlocking or buying specific traits? If the majority is buying then go there and figure out why, then change it.
• What is the average number of traits per character unlocked/bought after the patch? Do these numbers support the build diversity and experimentation the trait change was supposed to bring about?
• Sales numbers for new character slots past the 5 free we received. Are the numbers stagnant, falling, or rising? Plot that graph pre-patch and post-patch.

There are plenty of other suggestions in this thread that are amazing. I tried a slightly different approach this time and implore the devs to do it themselves. If the fix is only being discussed at this point they will have plenty of time to achieve the goal of the suggestion before any action is decided on.

Add to this.
1. They must do it on a non-dev account.
2. They cannot ask their co-workers to fix bugged events, they have to do the bug report system, just like the rest of us.
3. They have to remain ‘unknown’ so they get just as much help as an average player for group events/dungeons. This INCLUDES not being in a guild to start, and not letting anyone know who they are, so they deal with the same stuff we all do.
4. They have to play exclusively to unlock traits, and get all of the traits unlocked.

Be fair, devs, do it like we do. Completely. Challenge issued!

I really like the additions you posted. I hadn’t considered the preferential treatment an Anet symbol would provide them.
How I would LOVE for them to say: “Challenge accepted!”

So, if you devs are reading this thread, please consider it.

^^I like it enough to have added it to my signature and will attempt to post more to get it seen.

Devildoc.6721:

What I do like about the system is earning traits through killing elites and champions, jumping puzzles, mini dungeons, and some one off events.

For champions though don’t you have to wait for the champion to spawn and then also have a group to help take it down? I’m still kind of a noob so when I tried to 1v1 a champion I got wrecked.

Lobo Dela Noche.5127:

felessan.9587:

Wolfheart.1879:

…
10) Witht he heavy focus being on the new content, would that push the changing of an older system (traits) further back in priority. With that, can any change to the system in response to feedback be expected in, say the next 6 months, 1 year, 2 years?
…

Perhaps some questions that Anet could mull over.

All great questions. I think I remember the specific answers to two of them, though I can’t remember where the original posts are.

4) The idea of locking traits behind increasingly difficult content is to provide a sense of progression. I think it is supposed to give a player more of a sense of reward as they level and as they explore. If the Adept tier covers level 30-60, the content in it should cover that entire level range, so you always feel like you have something of your level to do.

10/11) It has been said explicitly that company policy prevents them from giving time frames ever again. Gaile has said repeatedly that she (they?) understands our frustration with the little information we’re given and that we should trust that they are working on improvements. We’ve also gotten the closest thing to a confirmation we’ve had in over a year that something was going to happen with the trait system; it’s buried somewhere in this thread.

I didn’t see him asking for any specific time frames. He gave time frames stating we have been waiting for 6 months. At this point in time they should come out and say what they are or aren’t working on. Its not the living story so there isn’t any spoilers they need to worry about. If they honestly care about the players they should let them know if they are working on fixing some of the trait unlocks, or if they are looking at overhauling the entire system again, or if they think it is fine the way it is. Those are simple questions with easy yes or no answers that don’t need to have any specifics attached(even though we’d all love to hear them).

the only reason they won’t say anything is because no they aren’t fixing any more trait unlocks, no they aren’t going to overhaul the system again(or roll back to old version), and finally do they think its ok the way it is, doesn’t really matter because they aren’t going to do anything anyways.

Edited to add I feel this way because the white knights have told us things are this way and they aren’t going to change. And they would be the ones to know ;-)

I absolutely 100% agree with you. 6 months is an unforgivable amount of time to let something this ridiculous go on.

However, Wolfheart did ask for a time frame in question 10, and we all know that it will be a cold day in heck before we get that kind of information ever again.

I was only repeating what I could remember the devs having posted before. In particular, look at this post: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/43#post4359246

People who are under strict silence only make overtures like these when they’re trying to confirm something they can’t actually confirm. If we’re going to constantly call out the PR speak used here, we might as well look at both sides of the coin.

vana.5467:

Rashy.4165:

I’d also be open to buying Trait manuals, but in the following format:
- 5 Adept manuals, one for each trait line
- 5 Master manuals, one for each trait line
- 5 Grandmaster manuals, one for each trait line.

I think this is one point they’ll refuse to change.
Their primary motivation appears to have been some misguided idea that awarding traits individually encourages players to learn them better (I assume this is what they refer to when they state that they think the trait change was successful in some respects).

A better solution would be to have a short mission, where you need to use the trait (given to you temporarily during the mission) to complete it, awarding you the trait as the final reward (permanently, once you’ve successfully used it in the mission). That’s been suggested on this thread and makes more sense if their motivation is for players to “learn the trait”.

It still goes against their goal of allowing free and accessible experimentation.

Rashy.4165:

A better solution would be to have a short mission, where you need to use the trait (given to you temporarily during the mission) to complete it, awarding you the trait as the final reward (permanently, once you’ve successfully used it in the mission). That’s been suggested on this thread and makes more sense if their motivation is for players to “learn the trait”.

It still goes against their goal of allowing free and accessible experimentation.

Would make more sense when it comes to skills, right? The effects of some traits are hard to see; f.e. 7% of my precision is turned into vitality. Wouldn’t be that exciting to have an event evolving around that ;)

Edit: Grammar

Jana.6831:

Rashy.4165:

A better solution would be to have a short mission, where you need to use the trait (given to you temporarily during the mission) to complete it, awarding you the trait as the final reward (permanently, once you’ve successfully used it in the mission). That’s been suggested on this thread and makes more sense if their motivation is for players to “learn the trait”.

It still goes against their goal of allowing free and accessible experimentation.

Would make more sense if it comes to skills, wouldn’kitten The effects of some traits are hard to see. F.e. 7% of my precision is turned into vitality. Wouldn’t be that exciting to have an event evolving around that

True >.> It’ll create more work anyway, since all Traits have individual effects across multiple professions.

Re-evaluating the unlock requirements would go a long way towards improving the system. And making it account bound (unless the new account requirements are actually fun to do and doesn’t take a lot of time to achieve all 65 traits).

tofumon.5924:

Devildoc.6721:

What I do like about the system is earning traits through killing elites and champions, jumping puzzles, mini dungeons, and some one off events.

For champions though don’t you have to wait for the champion to spawn and then also have a group to help take it down? I’m still kind of a noob so when I tried to 1v1 a champion I got wrecked.

Not always, sometimes it’s just a hardish fight but you can solo them.

Gregori.5807:

^^I like it enough to have added it to my signature and will attempt to post more to get it seen.

Awesome idea, the more exposure the better. If they accept the challenge then at least they can say with certainty that they know their customer’s concerns and frustrations since they’ve “Been there, Done that”

As Illysharia said earlier; it’s easier to form an opinion based upon personal experience.
For them to go through the entire process myself and Keysha suggested would definitely give them a lot of personal experience to draw from.

We can hope at least.

Keysha.2815:

Add to this.
1. They must do it on a non-dev account.
2. They cannot ask their co-workers to fix bugged events, they have to do the bug report system, just like the rest of us.
3. They have to remain ‘unknown’ so they get just as much help as an average player for group events/dungeons. This INCLUDES not being in a guild to start, and not letting anyone know who they are, so they deal with the same stuff we all do.
4. They have to play exclusively to unlock traits, and get all of the traits unlocked.

Be fair, devs, do it like we do. Completely. Challenge issued!

The problem with this challenge is that it’s actually missing the biggest problem with traits. If they were account bound, the unlocking wouldn’t be that bad.

This challenge has a definite goal, and each unlocked trait represents meaningful progress towards that goal.

The traits system, however, requires you to unlock the traits for every alt. There is no “completion” of the task, just one more tick in an (effectively) infinite list of ticks.

Moreover, the other big problem with the system is that it discourages experimentation and unlocking, both during levelling and at 80. Being “challenged” to complete the task, just once, eliminates the feeling of demotivation and disinterest that the system generates in regular play.

It’s like if someone dares you to stick a needle into your hand. You have incentive to do it. It might not even be that bad. You might even get satisfaction when its done, especially if you’re proving to someone you can. But that doesn’t make it a fun, rewarding, or painless experience that you’d want to do multiple times while playing a game.

@CTA: I agree, it does not cover the repetitiveness issue of the trait system. But Anet needs to first see why the trait system is a problem, in and of itself, before they can understand the hate we have for doing it over and over again.

The problem with devs playing the game with this as devs is manifold.

First, they have the tag showing they are anet. And for some odd reason, people flock to play with those bearing that tag. So group content is not a problem.

Second, they WORK at the company. A point gets bugged? “Hey, So and So! XXX is bugged, can you guys get it fixed please?” and So and So replying “Bug is fixed, go grab your point!” is vastly different from tagging it as bugged in game and having to go back, repeatedly, to see if it is fixed.

And Third, many of the devs have played long enough to know what trait lines they feel work best. They need to unlock all of them, at the appropriate levels, just like many of us try and do.

Ok, so I levelled a necro to 80 and got all the traits I wanted before the September patch. Many traits are still locked because I refuse to pay gold for them and refuse to play content I have no interest in just to get traits I have no interest in. Goodbye experimentation. The Trait chnges of April absolutely killed my desire to get anything I don’t need.

Now I’m levelling an Elementalist under the NPE and honestly, it’s far worse a slog than the necro was. There are some traits I need for my ele that I didn’t get for the necro and they are just horrible. For example waiting for the Giant Blood Ooze to appear in Bloodtide Coast, even after killing the Spider, it refused to show up. Pretty soul destroying to be trapped, waiting for a mob that may never appear, having no idea if it will turn up at all. This is just poor design through and through and really highlights how bad the trait system is. The experience is dragged out further by having to redo similar mobs that were boring and tedious to find on the necro. There is nothing “exciting” or “rewarding” about walking up and down the same bit of path over and over again, for hours on end until something arrives, or having to harass other players on the map for help when you have to beat a champion.

I posted a thread, where I questioned how the NPE would provide a feeling of advancement, when there would be so many dead levels between stats and trait allocation. Now I know. It’s filled with junk items and worthless hints. Due to the dynamic map levelling and the hunt for traits, I find that the stat gain levels, don’t make your character feel any stronger at all. They are just as unnoticable as the previous system for stat gains and worse, you don’t even get to play with traits points. When not getting unnoticable stat boosts or trait points, you’re rewarded with bags of random loot, which mostly contain junk items and gear for other professions. The gear usually being blue quality, even when you get something you can wear or use, it’s typically worse than what you’ve already gained.

Occasionally you gain yellow items which you can choose stats for as a reward. Typically, you don’t get to choose soemthing that might be useful to you, it’s a predetermined weapon choice, and if you’re not using that weapon, you basically get nothing for that level. On far too many levels, the reward can be something entirely awful like a choice between gathering tools or temporary buffs. i.e. worthless. You don’t feel like you’ve progressed, you only feel dissapointed and that perhaps the devs ran out of ideas. You can’t even salvage reward items or sell them. Completely worthless. Sadly, the rewards for the PS are equally bad. Gear that way below your level and/or present equipment or junk bags/weapons you don’t use.

At a mere level 53 I’m really struggling to keep playing my ele, which is really sad because before these systems were introduced I made and experimented with a huge amount of characters. The simple fact is that the combination of poor trait system, preventing acquistion of many traits until you’re way past the unlock requirement for that tier aswell as the countless dead levels feel like a complete stall to progression. You feel unnecessarily barred from gaining advancement, as the thankless slog that levelling has become continues for far too long.

Much like this laundry list of complaints.

What’s really sad is that I cannot find even one redeeming feature about the whole levelling shambles.

CrashTestAuto.9108:

Keysha.2815:

Add to this.
1. They must do it on a non-dev account.
2. They cannot ask their co-workers to fix bugged events, they have to do the bug report system, just like the rest of us.
3. They have to remain ‘unknown’ so they get just as much help as an average player for group events/dungeons. This INCLUDES not being in a guild to start, and not letting anyone know who they are, so they deal with the same stuff we all do.
4. They have to play exclusively to unlock traits, and get all of the traits unlocked.

Be fair, devs, do it like we do. Completely. Challenge issued!

The problem with this challenge is that it’s actually missing the biggest problem with traits. If they were account bound, the unlocking wouldn’t be that bad.

This challenge has a definite goal, and each unlocked trait represents meaningful progress towards that goal.

The traits system, however, requires you to unlock the traits for every alt. There is no “completion” of the task, just one more tick in an (effectively) infinite list of ticks.

Moreover, the other big problem with the system is that it discourages experimentation and unlocking, both during levelling and at 80. Being “challenged” to complete the task, just once, eliminates the feeling of demotivation and disinterest that the system generates in regular play.

It’s like if someone dares you to stick a needle into your hand. You have incentive to do it. It might not even be that bad. You might even get satisfaction when its done, especially if you’re proving to someone you can. But that doesn’t make it a fun, rewarding, or painless experience that you’d want to do multiple times while playing a game.

I think Keysha was adding a list of considerations to add to this post:

“I still beg the devs to try out this trait change for themselves.
They all need to do this with the stipulations that:

1. They can’t buy the traits
2. They must unlock all of the traits per character
3. They must use all five character slots and finish out each one on a different profession ."

I thought adding Keysha’s list to the prior one did cover the issue of unlocking all traits on all 5 characters (4 alts) that we had by default.

So here I fixed the challenge to include both lists:
Dev Trait Challenge

1. They can’t buy the traits
2. They must unlock all of the traits per character
3. They must use all five character slots and finish out each one on a different profession ."
4. They must do it on a non-dev account.
5. They cannot ask their co-workers to fix bugged events, they have to do the bug report system, just like the rest of us.
6. They have to remain ‘unknown’ so they get just as much help as an average player for group events/dungeons. This INCLUDES not being in a guild to start, and not letting anyone know who they are, so they deal with the same stuff we all do.
7. They have to play exclusively to unlock traits, and get all of the traits unlocked.

Infernia.9847:

I thought adding Keysha’s list to the prior one did cover the issue of unlocking all traits on all 5 characters (4 alts) that we had by default.

Good idea, let them also do 100% map completion on all toons, story completion and crafting a legendary, also they have to reach at least gold rank in regular wvw and have to reach top 100 in pvp on all their 5 chosen professions.

After that they’re allowed to improve the trait system they already have all data of.

Dev trait challenge issued:

I thought adding Keysha’s list to the prior one did cover the issue of unlocking all traits on all 5 characters (4 alts) that we had by default.

So here I fixed the challenge to include both lists:
Dev Trait Challenge

1. They can’t buy the traits
2. They must unlock all of the traits per character
3. They must use all five character slots and finish out each one on a different profession ."
4. They must do it on a non-dev account.
5. They cannot ask their co-workers to fix bugged events, they have to do the bug report system, just like the rest of us.
6. They have to remain ‘unknown’ so they get just as much help as an average player for group events/dungeons. This INCLUDES not being in a guild to start, and not letting anyone know who they are, so they deal with the same stuff we all do.
7. They have to play exclusively to unlock traits, and get all of the traits unlocked.

Yes she was: it was a combination of both posts (she is my wife so we discussed it… she is at a family gathering so I am posting this). I have quoted your neatly summarized post alone so I can tuck it in my sig.

Here is the original trait challenge post: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Game-Updates-Traits/page/62#post4561470

Jana.6831:

Infernia.9847:

I thought adding Keysha’s list to the prior one did cover the issue of unlocking all traits on all 5 characters (4 alts) that we had by default.

Good idea, let them also do 100% map completion on all toons, story completion and crafting a legendary, also they have to reach at least gold rank in regular wvw and have to reach top 100 in pvp on all their 5 chosen professions.

After that they’re allowed to improve the trait system they already have all data of.

I would like to see them do what you describe, and more, but think the trait challenge should be just acquiring the traits.

I would love to have a further challenge with what you incorporated to let them learn for themselves how functional the traits, themselves, are… both as individual traits and as trait lines. But that should be for another thread to keep this one from being closed down.

Gregori.5807:

snip

No offense but anet collects all data of us: They know how many new players have what traits unlocked, maybe they even know how long it took them. They know how many veterans have unlocked/or bought traits – they know of all the problems we’re discussing. It wouldn’t make any change if they were to try the system themselves because they already know. And well, we know less than them as most of us writing here are veterans, we can only assume how new players feel about it.

Jana.6831:

Gregori.5807:

snip

No offense but anet collects all data of us: They know how many new players have what traits unlocked, maybe they even know how long it took them. They know how many veterans have unlocked/or bought traits – they know of all the problems we’re discussing. It wouldn’t make any change if they were to try the system themselves because they already know. And well, we know less than them as most of us writing here are veterans, we can only assume how new players feel about it.

They may have numbers, but they don’t know how it feels to go through the process. There’s a difference. And I’m not convinced they actually pay attention to the metrics involving traits, personally.

And there’s a new page. Let’s take care of it.

Guhracie.3419:

They may have numbers, but they don’t know how it feels to go through the process. There’s a difference. And I’m not convinced they actually pay attention to the metrics involving traits, personally.

They do, that was why they changed the trait system in the first place. It was discussed during the marionette event and they said they were astonished how many people paid that little attention to their traits and changing skills to different situations.
So: You say that they should learn how it feels, but do you know how it feels to all those who don’t write in this thread? Do you know whether or not they like it? The one time someone came into this thread and said he was a new player who liked a),b) and c) but not d) about the system he was met with some rather harsh words. I guess having a look into the data makes more sense than just listening to what we 5 people here have to say. AND it goes faster than making anet try their system themselves.

Jana.6831:

Guhracie.3419:

They may have numbers, but they don’t know how it feels to go through the process. There’s a difference. And I’m not convinced they actually pay attention to the metrics involving traits, personally.

They do, that was why they changed the trait system in the first place. It was discussed during the marionette event and they said they were astonished how many people paid that little attention to their traits and changing skills to different situations.
So: You say that they should learn how it feels, but do you know how it feels to all those who don’t write in this thread? Do you know whether or not they like it? The one time someone came into this thread and said he was a new player who liked a),b) and c) but not d) about the system he was met with some rather harsh words. I guess having a look into the data makes more sense than just listening to what we 5 people here have to say. AND it goes faster than making anet try their system themselves.

Oh, I guess that’s why most games don’t have playtesters, because metrics are all that matter. Oh, wait……

Additionally, there are more than 5 people talking in this thread. It has dwindled over the course of six months, of course, as other people have probably either decided it wasn’t worth it to post, or have moved on to other games.

Once more, the lack of any real centralized information about what the devs say rears its head. I’ve never heard that Marionette was the reason they changed the trait system. I’ve only heard what they’ve said in their blog posts about it, which was that it was to encourage build diversity.

Guhracie.3419:

Jana.6831:

Guhracie.3419:

They may have numbers, but they don’t know how it feels to go through the process. There’s a difference. And I’m not convinced they actually pay attention to the metrics involving traits, personally.

They do, that was why they changed the trait system in the first place. It was discussed during the marionette event and they said they were astonished how many people paid that little attention to their traits and changing skills to different situations.
So: You say that they should learn how it feels, but do you know how it feels to all those who don’t write in this thread? Do you know whether or not they like it? The one time someone came into this thread and said he was a new player who liked a),b) and c) but not d) about the system he was met with some rather harsh words. I guess having a look into the data makes more sense than just listening to what we 5 people here have to say. AND it goes faster than making anet try their system themselves.

Oh, I guess that’s why most games don’t have playtesters, because metrics are all that matter. Oh, wait……

Honey, if you start that game again, then have fun – or read what I wrote, think about it and reply in a non pasive agressive manner or: DON’T REPLY TO ME AT ALL.

Jana.6831:

Guhracie.3419:

Jana.6831:

Guhracie.3419:

They may have numbers, but they don’t know how it feels to go through the process. There’s a difference. And I’m not convinced they actually pay attention to the metrics involving traits, personally.

They do, that was why they changed the trait system in the first place. It was discussed during the marionette event and they said they were astonished how many people paid that little attention to their traits and changing skills to different situations.
So: You say that they should learn how it feels, but do you know how it feels to all those who don’t write in this thread? Do you know whether or not they like it? The one time someone came into this thread and said he was a new player who liked a),b) and c) but not d) about the system he was met with some rather harsh words. I guess having a look into the data makes more sense than just listening to what we 5 people here have to say. AND it goes faster than making anet try their system themselves.

Oh, I guess that’s why most games don’t have playtesters, because metrics are all that matter. Oh, wait……

Honey, if you start that game again, then have fun – or read what I wrote, think about it and reply in a non pasive agressive manner or: DON’T REPLY TO ME AT ALL.

Snookums, I have no idea what you mean by “if you start that game again.” What game, and when did I start it previously? I’ve edited my post to be more thorough if you’re interested, but the irony of your response is astounding. Seriously.

Guhracie.3419:

Snookums, I have no idea what you mean by “if you start that game again.” What game, and when did I start it previously? I’ve edited my post to be more thorough if you’re interested, but the irony of your response is astounding. Seriously.

Starts page 60 of this thread and goes on for a while.

Jana.6831:

Guhracie.3419:

Snookums, I have no idea what you mean by “if you start that game again.” What game, and when did I start it previously? I’ve edited my post to be more thorough if you’re interested, but the irony of your response is astounding. Seriously.

Starts page 60 of this thread and goes on for a while.

By “a while” you mean “four posts.” Got it. Thanks for the reminder! I now have a post-it note on my computer with your user-name, reminding me not to engage with you. You missed my point then and took it as a personal attack, which it wasn’t, and are now determined that whatever I say must be an opening for a confrontation.

Look. I’m sorry I hurt your feelings. Sincerely. Sometimes I phrase things poorly, and I get hung up on trying to make sure my message is understood without really focusing on my tone, and that often leads to me coming off as abrasive, which I probably am anyway. It’s one of the flaws with text, and, apparently, my personality.