Guild Wars 2

As stated, my friends and I came to Guildwars 2 with a small and tightly knit guild. Since our 1 year+ of playing, our group has not really expanded. In fact, many of us have lost interest in Guildwars 2 and have been doing other things to kill the time.

We all agree that there is a strong lack of social activities in Guildwars 2 due to the following:

LACK OF DEFINED ROLES AND TOO MUCH INDEPENDENT CLASS POWER

Roles are not defined in Guildwars 2 and the zerker meta continues to hurt the community. In other games, players are forced to become dependent on other players in order to survive. In Guildwars 2 certain classes are so independently powerful and are able to do so many overlapping roles by themselves that the need for other players is extinguished.

Rather than promoting group dynamics, players instead group up with independently powerful classes that are easy to play (heavies) and steamroll content before simply disbanding.

In other games, where roles are defined, you added tanks and healers to your friends list because you needed them. Forced group cooperation helped to foster player relationships because players HAD to work together to succeed. People in your group offered things that you could never do on your own. In Guildwars 2, you don’t need the other players but instead they are there to simply bolster your own independent power. When classes under perform independently, they are unwanted (ex: ranger).

While Guildwars 2 does many cooperative things right (combo fields, rally system), it does too much more wrong (single classes able to do all the roles of the party [warrior: damage/heal/boon/tank/control]). Players are not promoted to make strong relationships or depend on other players because other players bring very little to the table that they can’t do themselves.

Guildwars 2 does very little to capitalized on its teamwork systems (i.e. some of the most powerful combo field attacks being able to be done just by one person [engineer turret aoe healing], Guardian hammer spam on self-dropped fields).

Extending into WvW and PvP. The mesmer and thief are so independently powerful because of how stupid the stealth mechanic is that they just abandon players that attempt to fight along side them due to their access to an infinite number of escapes. The extreme 1v1 capabilities of these classes leads to them to be superior due to power creep and only encourages them to align with other thieves or mesmers to troll.

Other players attempting to roam with these classes in WvW just end up being deadweight.

LACK OF GUILD ACTIVITIES:

Aside from the limited Guild dailies, there are no raids, no GvG, and no content that focuses on guild cooperation. Instead we have large zerg events where the scale is so huge that the independent contribution of a smaller player party matters very little. There is no way to isolate the rewards to the players who promoted the most teamwork when there are 200+ people participating in a giant lagfest that usually encompasses pressing 1 for 30 mins.

Havoc squads are the closest thing to organized small group combat, but they get crushed by large zergs that do little to promote team skill. Certain escape classes simple abandon allies when this happens to lone wolf.

ENTIRE GAME REVOLVES AROUND MELEE:

All the group buffs in the game are 600m or less on average. There are very few targeted area heals. Players are encouraged simply to stand next to each other and stack heavy boon classes (warrior/guardian) to achieve near godlike status. The gameplay does not promote any kind of strategic positioning. In fact, positioning barely matters at all in Guildwars 2 unless your ranged and out of the “god” temple of your companions. Then you are told you are playing wrong.

This just leads to a boring dynamic that encourages stacking and button mashing with very little strategy or teamplay.

OVERALL SHALLOWNESS AND TL;DR:

Overall the failing of the above systems (too much independent class power, lack of roles, melee focused gameplay with no teamwork, very little guild support/content) makes the game feel like a very shallow cooperative experience. As a result, most of us in at least my group, have lost interest and just check back every now and then to see if things ever got better (only to find more Scarlet Briar while larger issues are ignored or not being solved in a reasonable time table [1 year, same problems or empty promises in the shunned classes forums]).

Ultimately the current systems of Guildwars 2 promote very little cooperation and instead result in selfish gameplay. Large zerg events do not promote teamwork and are too large and chaotic to reward team synergy.

You need a different guild, mate. An awesome group of folks and an active GM that likes to run events makes a lot of this crap more… temporarily forgettable. I mean, its still there, but you feel less inclined to think about it being against you.

Not saying you should leave your friends, but a more active guild with lots more people doing the things you want to makes the game better for those who need this sort of interaction. Find a new home and bring them over too!

My guild is 160 strong. We have a blast together.

But the truth is, game mechanics don’t make you social. Game mechanics might force you to play together. That’s why so many guilds in places like WoW implode. People aren’t there for people, they’re there to win.

And as long as that’s the case…you can’t call it social.

Vayne.8563:

But the truth is, game mechanics don’t make you social.

Quoted for truth. Social interaction requires some effort on the part of those who want its benefits. Forcing people to do things together is just that, forcing them to do things together. Those who want to form social bonds out of that will — but those people are going to form social bonds regardless. those who don’t want those bonds will group up to get things done, then fade into the ether when their goals are reached.

laokoko.7403:

Base on some of you guys comment, I might as well go to an internet chat room unrelated to GW2 while I’m playing.

And what would be wrong with that?

If the game forces you to play together, then you’re not social…you’re forced to play together. Social isn’t something forced. It’s something that should come quite naturally to some people. People always form social groups.

The thing is, the game itself becomes a focus for the group, there’s still stuff to do together. I mean watching movies isn’t a social activity, but people still tend to watch movies with other people and movie clubs exist. You and your friends go to the movies, even though you could go completely separately. The movie doesn’t making going to the movie a social experience. You don’t need your friends there to watch a movie better.

The game gives focus for people to do something they enjoy. It allows two people to do stuff they enjoy as well. What it doesn’t do is pigeon hole you. It doesn’t make one person who doesn’t want to heal heal. Instead five people playing the character they want can do a dungeon and have fun together, without worrying who plays what.

It just as social without the limitations My guild runs dungeons together all the time. We don’t worry about who has what profession or what build and maybe it takes us longer to beat content, but we’re having a great time while we’re doing it.

And many of us are hanging out on mumble, laughing and joking around,. even if we’re not playing. But we enjoy playing Guild Wars 2 together as well.

I’m not sure why you feel that’s an issue.

and that’s why we have zergs, there is nothing else to do for max level players so all they can do is the first thing they can come up with, chasing a group of farmers.
i would love to see a game where DE’s are less scripted and more dynamic, a world that is put together in such a way that players can immerse them selves.
if anything, if they made GW2 less what it is now and more a mix of GW and skyrim you would have a more social game, an actual dynamic world with the things we love about GW.

I agree, the depth in this game is lacking.

There’s a whole lot of potential.

Rolyate.6753:

I agree, the depth in this game is lacking.

There’s a whole lot of potential.

best way to do that is to destroy stacking and make control role useful.

laokoko.7403:

Vayne.8563:

I’m not sure why you feel that’s an issue.

I don’t see how you not getting a silly achievement point from living world is an issue too.

But I respect your opinion. So I hope you respect mine too.

I played a few mmorpg where I know “pretty much everyone on the server”. I like that sense of community. I don’t felt the same way in GW2. I almost don’t even know anyone in my guild.

Whatever GW2 design philosophy is the developer’s decision. But if I’m not mistaken, GW1 actually have “guild war” in it’s design(not that I played it). I hope GW2 can at least bring that back.

The focus of guilds instead of servers has been an MMO shift for a long long time. That’s all it is. My guild is social. We socialize less randomly with the server.

In the old days, when a game had less players and there was less choice, it was far easier to get to know people on your server. But the field is more competitive now. More games. More people jumping from game to game (something you really couldn’t do back then) and also, it’s not must more MMOs. There are more games in general coming out all the time, with faster access due to the internet.

The people on your server change to fast to make it a community…it has nothing at all to do with having to rely on people that’s all I’m saying.

Strongly agree with OP. Vayne is in here again talking about how it’s the player’s responsibility to “be social” but he completely ignores basic human nature. An mmo game especially should provide some kind of backdrop or reason for you to contact specific people and to form communities based on mutual needs “I scratch your back you scratch mine”. There needs to be some reason for people to seek out other people. Once that’s done you can begin to have more meaningful interaction that goes beyond what you need in game and you can make friends. But if any schmuck can fill your party slot and even a monkey could do it then there’s no reason for you to begin to care about who is in your party because you can just get the next guy to fill the slot too.

To me, this has been the biggest downfall of eliminating the trinity. Not the gameplay consequences (though they are also noteworthy) but the near complete elimination of individual distinction and proficiency, and the boring interchangeability that replaced it.

This game seems to strongly want to become some kind of mmorpg-fps hybrid. FPS games don’t have roles, but the individual’s skill and proficiency can be quickly seen and praised. Here, everyone just rolls into one huge ball of mediocrity.

laokoko.7403:

My perspective is I’m always playing with different people all the time. It’s hard to build a community when people you play with keeps changing.

Let’s say you go to a world event. Look around you. How many people do you really know? Sure you have people to play with. But you don’t know them.

You use the words “forcing to play together”. Which in another word for there is nothing require a community of people to play together.

And I’m not sure what server community you are talking about with all the guesting.

My guild plays together all the time in spite of the fact there’s nothing forcing us to do so. Therefore I have a social game. I’m not sure why you’d think being forced to play with strangers who you might or might not like is better.

A guild can have a theme. It can be competitive. Casual. Speed runners. And you fit in better with that guild, because they play like you.

Since my guild plays together, even though we’re not forced to, I know it’s possible. I’m not sure why you think there’s a problem. The game is as social as you make it.

milo.6942:

Strongly agree with OP. Vayne is in here again talking about how it’s the player’s responsibility to “be social” but he completely ignores basic human nature. An mmo game especially should provide some kind of backdrop or reason for you to contact specific people and to form communities based on mutual needs “I scratch your back you scratch mine”. There needs to be some reason for people to seek out other people. Once that’s done you can begin to have more meaningful interaction that goes beyond what you need in game and you can make friends. But if any schmuck can fill your party slot and even a monkey could do it then there’s no reason for you to begin to care about who is in your party because you can just get the next guy to fill the slot too.

To me, this has been the biggest downfall of eliminating the trinity. Not the gameplay consequences (though they are also noteworthy) but the near complete elimination of individual distinction and proficiency, and the boring interchangeability that replaced it.

This game seems to strongly want to become some kind of mmorpg-fps hybrid. FPS games don’t have roles, but the individual’s skill and proficiency can be quickly seen and praised. Here, everyone just rolls into one huge ball of mediocrity.

So what about all the people who want to play the game and aren’t naturally social. The old way force them to be social even if they’re antisocial and they end up destroying everyone else’s fun. That’s bad design.

Here you can find social people if you want to be social, but no one is forced to. What you’re saying is games should basically tell you who to be. I don’t agree with this.

Forcing people who don’t want to socialize to socialize will lead to some people being forced into something they don’t want to do, and some people refusing to do it and having to miss out on vast swathes of content.

I’d consider that far worse design.

laokoko.7403:

I was just hoping for something like guild halls, or guild wars, GvsG.

I don’t get why I can’t ask for something like that.

People can have their own opinion. Because people enjoy different things.

You can ask for that. But none of those things are going to make non-social people social, that’s all.

As for Guild Halls, they’ve always been on the agenda, they’re simply taking time to make. As for GvG, I honestly don’t know why that wasn’t included. I always felt it should have been.

But it’s one thing to say the game lacks a social aspect and then point to other games were people are forced to guild or miss out as shining examples of what MMOs should be. In case you haven’t noticed, most of those other games haven’t done very well for themselves.

I’m anti-social. I’d love to be all social and in there and chatting all the time and stuff... but I’m just not that person. I’m in a guild of one and a half (that half being my kid, and she only plays to have fun, and doesn’t do any form of progression. She likes to bunny-hop around), although I did do a guild once or twice before, and they weren’t really my sort of people to play with.

Whenever I’ve gotten myself in a group (I tend to think this a mistake on my part), I start to panic somewhat, and don’t feel I can live up to any expectation I imagine the other players may have (admittedly when I’m on the ranger, I should think their expectations are low). I still try to succeed, because I, with all my anti-social ridiculousness, can believe in a greater good and working for it, even if that means in a group situation. I don’t want to let them down, I absolutely hate that idea, and that’s why I’d usually avoid it if I feel too nervous. As dumb as that may be. Sometimes I’ve got to force myself through this stuff - and yeah, if it goes well, I’ll feel better afterwards. Even though it’s just a game, I’ll take it as a win and even use it in RL if I have to.

I haven’t found any concept of guild I feel totally comfortable with, even if on some days I feel like "today could be the day! I could join a guild today and it will be a good fit!" I never get past just looking at a Guild Launch page, or an ages old server guild list. I also know I’m just too chaotic when it comes down to it, and sooner or later, cannot be relied upon. Even if I want to be approaching reliable, I’m just not. Something happens and I switch off.

Forcing me into having to play socially with others breaks my mind. Well... it doesn’t, not really, nothing quite so dramatic. But I do have to be feeling unnaturally confident to succeed. I know I can succeed, I’ve done it before, and I try to be open to ideas and new things, but I don’t like being forced into something. I’d rather decide for myself, not have a game or others do it for me. If what I decide happens to coincide with the game or others, then I’m sure it’s all good. But I don’t feel so bad if it doesn’t, and I will do something else instead. I am acutely aware of my limitations, and if something is trying to run counter to this, I just won’t do it (so a lot of jumping puzzles and things like SAB are out).

The best thing about this game is I don’t have to do things with other people if I don’t want to. There’s really nothing here like that. It’s only if I decide I’m focused on achievements, or ending the personal story, or doing marionettes, or whatever, that I have to co-operate. And yet I still decide if I want to do that or not. I’m not forced into anything unless I put myself in that position in the first place - and if I do put myself there, it’s with the foreknowledge of it involving others. I wouldn’t necessarily describe this as a social environment, however. With some of the backchat and nasty comments, it’s anything but. Sociopathic, maybe. It’s certainly not healthy.

If I miss something I find interesting (anything story or lore related for example), either due to time or "forced" constraints, I’ll look it up on the Wiki or similar. It may not be the same as experiencing it first hand, but frankly, I have a hard time reading/watching stuff first hand owing to the panic of doing stuff with other people who want it done yesterday anyway (dungeon story modes, I’m looking at you!).

Ceridwen.6703:

I’m anti-social. I’d love to be all social and in there and chatting all the time and stuff… but I’m just not that person. I’m in a guild of one and a half (that half being my kid, and she only plays to have fun, and doesn’t do any form of progression. She likes to bunny-hop around), although I did do a guild once or twice before, and they weren’t really my sort of people to play with.

Whenever I’ve gotten myself in a group (I tend to think this a mistake on my part), I start to panic somewhat, and don’t feel I can live up to any expectation I imagine the other players may have (admittedly when I’m on the ranger, I should think their expectations are low). I still try to succeed, because I, with all my anti-social ridiculousness, can believe in a greater good and working for it, even if that means in a group situation. I don’t want to let them down, I absolutely hate that idea, and that’s why I’d usually avoid it if I feel too nervous. As dumb as that may be. Sometimes I’ve got to force myself through this stuff – and yeah, if it goes well, I’ll feel better afterwards. Even though it’s just a game, I’ll take it as a win and even use it in RL if I have to.

I haven’t found any concept of guild I feel totally comfortable with, even if on some days I feel like “today could be the day! I could join a guild today and it will be a good fit!” I never get past just looking at a Guild Launch page, or an ages old server guild list. I also know I’m just too chaotic when it comes down to it, and sooner or later, cannot be relied upon. Even if I want to be approaching reliable, I’m just not. Something happens and I switch off.

Forcing me into having to play socially with others breaks my mind. Well… it doesn’t, not really, nothing quite so dramatic. But I do have to be feeling unnaturally confident to succeed. I know I can succeed, I’ve done it before, and I try to be open to ideas and new things, but I don’t like being forced into something. I’d rather decide for myself, not have a game or others do it for me. If what I decide happens to coincide with the game or others, then I’m sure it’s all good. But I don’t feel so bad if it doesn’t, and I will do something else instead. I am acutely aware of my limitations, and if something is trying to run counter to this, I just won’t do it (so a lot of jumping puzzles and things like SAB are out).

The best thing about this game is I don’t have to do things with other people if I don’t want to. There’s really nothing here like that. It’s only if I decide I’m focused on achievements, or ending the personal story, or doing marionettes, or whatever, that I have to co-operate. And yet I still decide if I want to do that or not. I’m not forced into anything unless I put myself in that position in the first place – and if I do put myself there, it’s with the foreknowledge of it involving others. I wouldn’t necessarily describe this as a social environment, however. With some of the backchat and nasty comments, it’s anything but. Sociopathic, maybe. It’s certainly not healthy.

If I miss something I find interesting (anything story or lore related for example), either due to time or “forced” constraints, I’ll look it up on the Wiki or similar. It may not be the same as experiencing it first hand, but frankly, I have a hard time reading/watching stuff first hand owing to the panic of doing stuff with other people who want it done yesterday anyway (dungeon story modes, I’m looking at you!).

Sounds like my guild would be perfect for you. hahahaha

Ceridwen.6703:

I’m anti-social. I’d love to be all social and in there and chatting all the time and stuff… but I’m just not that person. I’m in a guild of one and a half (that half being my kid, and she only plays to have fun, and doesn’t do any form of progression. She likes to bunny-hop around), although I did do a guild once or twice before, and they weren’t really my sort of people to play with.

Whenever I’ve gotten myself in a group (I tend to think this a mistake on my part), I start to panic somewhat, and don’t feel I can live up to any expectation I imagine the other players may have (admittedly when I’m on the ranger, I should think their expectations are low). I still try to succeed, because I, with all my anti-social ridiculousness, can believe in a greater good and working for it, even if that means in a group situation. I don’t want to let them down, I absolutely hate that idea, and that’s why I’d usually avoid it if I feel too nervous. As dumb as that may be. Sometimes I’ve got to force myself through this stuff – and yeah, if it goes well, I’ll feel better afterwards. Even though it’s just a game, I’ll take it as a win and even use it in RL if I have to.

I haven’t found any concept of guild I feel totally comfortable with, even if on some days I feel like “today could be the day! I could join a guild today and it will be a good fit!” I never get past just looking at a Guild Launch page, or an ages old server guild list. I also know I’m just too chaotic when it comes down to it, and sooner or later, cannot be relied upon. Even if I want to be approaching reliable, I’m just not. Something happens and I switch off.

Forcing me into having to play socially with others breaks my mind. Well… it doesn’t, not really, nothing quite so dramatic. But I do have to be feeling unnaturally confident to succeed. I know I can succeed, I’ve done it before, and I try to be open to ideas and new things, but I don’t like being forced into something. I’d rather decide for myself, not have a game or others do it for me. If what I decide happens to coincide with the game or others, then I’m sure it’s all good. But I don’t feel so bad if it doesn’t, and I will do something else instead. I am acutely aware of my limitations, and if something is trying to run counter to this, I just won’t do it (so a lot of jumping puzzles and things like SAB are out).

The best thing about this game is I don’t have to do things with other people if I don’t want to. There’s really nothing here like that. It’s only if I decide I’m focused on achievements, or ending the personal story, or doing marionettes, or whatever, that I have to co-operate. And yet I still decide if I want to do that or not. I’m not forced into anything unless I put myself in that position in the first place – and if I do put myself there, it’s with the foreknowledge of it involving others. I wouldn’t necessarily describe this as a social environment, however. With some of the backchat and nasty comments, it’s anything but. Sociopathic, maybe. It’s certainly not healthy.

If I miss something I find interesting (anything story or lore related for example), either due to time or “forced” constraints, I’ll look it up on the Wiki or similar. It may not be the same as experiencing it first hand, but frankly, I have a hard time reading/watching stuff first hand owing to the panic of doing stuff with other people who want it done yesterday anyway (dungeon story modes, I’m looking at you!).

A good post that says all that needs to be said.

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Strongly agree with OP. Vayne is in here again talking about how it’s the player’s responsibility to “be social” but he completely ignores basic human nature. An mmo game especially should provide some kind of backdrop or reason for you to contact specific people and to form communities based on mutual needs “I scratch your back you scratch mine”. There needs to be some reason for people to seek out other people. Once that’s done you can begin to have more meaningful interaction that goes beyond what you need in game and you can make friends. But if any schmuck can fill your party slot and even a monkey could do it then there’s no reason for you to begin to care about who is in your party because you can just get the next guy to fill the slot too.

To me, this has been the biggest downfall of eliminating the trinity. Not the gameplay consequences (though they are also noteworthy) but the near complete elimination of individual distinction and proficiency, and the boring interchangeability that replaced it.

This game seems to strongly want to become some kind of mmorpg-fps hybrid. FPS games don’t have roles, but the individual’s skill and proficiency can be quickly seen and praised. Here, everyone just rolls into one huge ball of mediocrity.

So what about all the people who want to play the game and aren’t naturally social. The old way force them to be social even if they’re antisocial and they end up destroying everyone else’s fun. That’s bad design.

Here you can find social people if you want to be social, but no one is forced to. What you’re saying is games should basically tell you who to be. I don’t agree with this.

Forcing people who don’t want to socialize to socialize will lead to some people being forced into something they don’t want to do, and some people refusing to do it and having to miss out on vast swathes of content.

I’d consider that far worse design.

Each class should have a selection of weapons that are more balanced for solo play. 90% of the game is open world communal events. If you want to do dungeons or pvp then it should have been clear from the “mmo” game description that you will be playing alongside other players. This is exactly what op was talking about: This is an mmo where everyone plays by themselves. And it is supremely shallow because of it.

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Strongly agree with OP. Vayne is in here again talking about how it’s the player’s responsibility to “be social” but he completely ignores basic human nature. An mmo game especially should provide some kind of backdrop or reason for you to contact specific people and to form communities based on mutual needs “I scratch your back you scratch mine”. There needs to be some reason for people to seek out other people. Once that’s done you can begin to have more meaningful interaction that goes beyond what you need in game and you can make friends. But if any schmuck can fill your party slot and even a monkey could do it then there’s no reason for you to begin to care about who is in your party because you can just get the next guy to fill the slot too.

To me, this has been the biggest downfall of eliminating the trinity. Not the gameplay consequences (though they are also noteworthy) but the near complete elimination of individual distinction and proficiency, and the boring interchangeability that replaced it.

This game seems to strongly want to become some kind of mmorpg-fps hybrid. FPS games don’t have roles, but the individual’s skill and proficiency can be quickly seen and praised. Here, everyone just rolls into one huge ball of mediocrity.

So what about all the people who want to play the game and aren’t naturally social. The old way force them to be social even if they’re antisocial and they end up destroying everyone else’s fun. That’s bad design.

Here you can find social people if you want to be social, but no one is forced to. What you’re saying is games should basically tell you who to be. I don’t agree with this.

Forcing people who don’t want to socialize to socialize will lead to some people being forced into something they don’t want to do, and some people refusing to do it and having to miss out on vast swathes of content.

I’d consider that far worse design.

Each class should have a selection of weapons that are more balanced for solo play. 90% of the game is open world communal events. If you want to do dungeons or pvp then it should have been clear from the “mmo” game description that you will be playing alongside other players. This is exactly what op was talking about: This is an mmo where everyone plays by themselves. And it is supremely shallow because of it.

I found myself playing far more by myself in other MMOs with the trinity. I was healing so I was looking at little green bars and not really playng with people at all. If I did well no one cared. If I did badly it was the end of the world.

Yeah it was very social. I’m so glad I don’t have to put up with that crap here.

So this thread is basically about adding guild halls. While you have some good points, i agree with Vayne. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. I’d rather not be forced to drink.

@ the OP:

When I began to read this thread, I thought by the title that you would be lamenting the fact that there really is not a lot of things to do for small groups of people, unless you like to dungeon crawl.

Instead, I found a missive about what you want to change about the game, none of which involve providing said activities for small groups. That in itself is not a bad thing, but, the title and the discussion just didn’t fit well.

So, let me divide my response into two sections.

First let me say that I agree to a point, that there’s not a lot of things to do for small groups of people. If I wanted to go with my friends and do something, I am either forced to find a couple of other people (or a zerg) or leave a couple of people out (most activities such as Keg Brawl.) I would love it if the devs added some content that could be completed by smaller groups in the 5-25 range.

But I am not going to ask them to “do away” with the things that are already in the game. I am of the mind that just because you don’t enjoy certain aspects doesn’t mean there aren’t others who do. Taking that away from them is just wrong.

Secondly social activities don’t have to be game-organized. There are guilds who organize contests, activities, parties, etc., and pretty much invite the whole server to participate. If your guild isn’t “doing it” for you, then you might do a bit of research and maybe you will find one that is just right for you and your expectations of the game.

TL;DR
Just because you don’t like certain aspects of the game doesn’t mean that there aren’t others who do. Don’t take it away from them. Although it is true that this game does not have a lot of things to do for small groups of people, penalizing others solely to satisfy your needs is just wrong.

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Strongly agree with OP. Vayne is in here again talking about how it’s the player’s responsibility to “be social” but he completely ignores basic human nature. An mmo game especially should provide some kind of backdrop or reason for you to contact specific people and to form communities based on mutual needs “I scratch your back you scratch mine”. There needs to be some reason for people to seek out other people. Once that’s done you can begin to have more meaningful interaction that goes beyond what you need in game and you can make friends. But if any schmuck can fill your party slot and even a monkey could do it then there’s no reason for you to begin to care about who is in your party because you can just get the next guy to fill the slot too.

To me, this has been the biggest downfall of eliminating the trinity. Not the gameplay consequences (though they are also noteworthy) but the near complete elimination of individual distinction and proficiency, and the boring interchangeability that replaced it.

This game seems to strongly want to become some kind of mmorpg-fps hybrid. FPS games don’t have roles, but the individual’s skill and proficiency can be quickly seen and praised. Here, everyone just rolls into one huge ball of mediocrity.

So what about all the people who want to play the game and aren’t naturally social. The old way force them to be social even if they’re antisocial and they end up destroying everyone else’s fun. That’s bad design.

Here you can find social people if you want to be social, but no one is forced to. What you’re saying is games should basically tell you who to be. I don’t agree with this.

Forcing people who don’t want to socialize to socialize will lead to some people being forced into something they don’t want to do, and some people refusing to do it and having to miss out on vast swathes of content.

I’d consider that far worse design.

Each class should have a selection of weapons that are more balanced for solo play. 90% of the game is open world communal events. If you want to do dungeons or pvp then it should have been clear from the “mmo” game description that you will be playing alongside other players. This is exactly what op was talking about: This is an mmo where everyone plays by themselves. And it is supremely shallow because of it.

I found myself playing far more by myself in other MMOs with the trinity. I was healing so I was looking at little green bars and not really playng with people at all. If I did well no one cared. If I did badly it was the end of the world.

Yeah it was very social. I’m so glad I don’t have to put up with that crap here.

I think your anecdote is irrelevant, if you didn’t enjoy healing then you shouldn’t have played a healer. Now of course people won’t rage at you for doing a “bad job”, support is mostly inconsequential.

I think OP just used the wrong word. It’s not like roles force anything on you, it’s just they promote teamwork, create favorable environment for socializing, makes it easier, gives you sort of a formal reasons to put people in friend list, invite them, talk to them, and in this process you can get to know them and eventually become friends. It’s just like in real life. OP most definitely have a point there.

Ironically I find this the most social game I have played simply because I am not forced to group.
It makes a huge difference to how I interact with other players because of it.

If someone is on my friends list it is because I like them- not because I need to know them so I can do content

Ceridwen.6703:

I’m anti-social. I’d love to be all social and in there and chatting all the time and stuff… but I’m just not that person. I’m in a guild of one and a half (that half being my kid, and she only plays to have fun, and doesn’t do any form of progression. She likes to bunny-hop around), although I did do a guild once or twice before, and they weren’t really my sort of people to play with.

Whenever I’ve gotten myself in a group (I tend to think this a mistake on my part), I start to panic somewhat, and don’t feel I can live up to any expectation I imagine the other players may have (admittedly when I’m on the ranger, I should think their expectations are low). I still try to succeed, because I, with all my anti-social ridiculousness, can believe in a greater good and working for it, even if that means in a group situation. I don’t want to let them down, I absolutely hate that idea, and that’s why I’d usually avoid it if I feel too nervous. As dumb as that may be. Sometimes I’ve got to force myself through this stuff – and yeah, if it goes well, I’ll feel better afterwards. Even though it’s just a game, I’ll take it as a win and even use it in RL if I have to.

I haven’t found any concept of guild I feel totally comfortable with, even if on some days I feel like “today could be the day! I could join a guild today and it will be a good fit!” I never get past just looking at a Guild Launch page, or an ages old server guild list. I also know I’m just too chaotic when it comes down to it, and sooner or later, cannot be relied upon. Even if I want to be approaching reliable, I’m just not. Something happens and I switch off.

Forcing me into having to play socially with others breaks my mind. Well… it doesn’t, not really, nothing quite so dramatic. But I do have to be feeling unnaturally confident to succeed. I know I can succeed, I’ve done it before, and I try to be open to ideas and new things, but I don’t like being forced into something. I’d rather decide for myself, not have a game or others do it for me. If what I decide happens to coincide with the game or others, then I’m sure it’s all good. But I don’t feel so bad if it doesn’t, and I will do something else instead. I am acutely aware of my limitations, and if something is trying to run counter to this, I just won’t do it (so a lot of jumping puzzles and things like SAB are out).

The best thing about this game is I don’t have to do things with other people if I don’t want to. There’s really nothing here like that. It’s only if I decide I’m focused on achievements, or ending the personal story, or doing marionettes, or whatever, that I have to co-operate. And yet I still decide if I want to do that or not. I’m not forced into anything unless I put myself in that position in the first place – and if I do put myself there, it’s with the foreknowledge of it involving others. I wouldn’t necessarily describe this as a social environment, however. With some of the backchat and nasty comments, it’s anything but. Sociopathic, maybe. It’s certainly not healthy.

If I miss something I find interesting (anything story or lore related for example), either due to time or “forced” constraints, I’ll look it up on the Wiki or similar. It may not be the same as experiencing it first hand, but frankly, I have a hard time reading/watching stuff first hand owing to the panic of doing stuff with other people who want it done yesterday anyway (dungeon story modes, I’m looking at you!).

And this is why I choose to play this game. If forced grouping (like 99% of other MMO’s) became the normal, then I’d move along to something else. One of the big draws of this game is NOT having to rely on others to do most of the content.

lol, Rise of the Anti-Social MMO. I’m sure that says great things about the game’s future.

Why this isn’t a Flameseeker article I don’t know.

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Strongly agree with OP. Vayne is in here again talking about how it’s the player’s responsibility to “be social” but he completely ignores basic human nature. An mmo game especially should provide some kind of backdrop or reason for you to contact specific people and to form communities based on mutual needs “I scratch your back you scratch mine”. There needs to be some reason for people to seek out other people. Once that’s done you can begin to have more meaningful interaction that goes beyond what you need in game and you can make friends. But if any schmuck can fill your party slot and even a monkey could do it then there’s no reason for you to begin to care about who is in your party because you can just get the next guy to fill the slot too.

To me, this has been the biggest downfall of eliminating the trinity. Not the gameplay consequences (though they are also noteworthy) but the near complete elimination of individual distinction and proficiency, and the boring interchangeability that replaced it.

This game seems to strongly want to become some kind of mmorpg-fps hybrid. FPS games don’t have roles, but the individual’s skill and proficiency can be quickly seen and praised. Here, everyone just rolls into one huge ball of mediocrity.

So what about all the people who want to play the game and aren’t naturally social. The old way force them to be social even if they’re antisocial and they end up destroying everyone else’s fun. That’s bad design.

Here you can find social people if you want to be social, but no one is forced to. What you’re saying is games should basically tell you who to be. I don’t agree with this.

Forcing people who don’t want to socialize to socialize will lead to some people being forced into something they don’t want to do, and some people refusing to do it and having to miss out on vast swathes of content.

I’d consider that far worse design.

Each class should have a selection of weapons that are more balanced for solo play. 90% of the game is open world communal events. If you want to do dungeons or pvp then it should have been clear from the “mmo” game description that you will be playing alongside other players. This is exactly what op was talking about: This is an mmo where everyone plays by themselves. And it is supremely shallow because of it.

I found myself playing far more by myself in other MMOs with the trinity. I was healing so I was looking at little green bars and not really playng with people at all. If I did well no one cared. If I did badly it was the end of the world.

Yeah it was very social. I’m so glad I don’t have to put up with that crap here.

I think your anecdote is irrelevant, if you didn’t enjoy healing then you shouldn’t have played a healer. Now of course people won’t rage at you for doing a “bad job”, support is mostly inconsequential.

Except people pressure you, if they know you have a healer to play one. It happens all the time. And if no one wants to heal there is no dungeon.

Great stuff. I wish I could do it all again.

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Strongly agree with OP. Vayne is in here again talking about how it’s the player’s responsibility to “be social” but he completely ignores basic human nature. An mmo game especially should provide some kind of backdrop or reason for you to contact specific people and to form communities based on mutual needs “I scratch your back you scratch mine”. There needs to be some reason for people to seek out other people. Once that’s done you can begin to have more meaningful interaction that goes beyond what you need in game and you can make friends. But if any schmuck can fill your party slot and even a monkey could do it then there’s no reason for you to begin to care about who is in your party because you can just get the next guy to fill the slot too.

To me, this has been the biggest downfall of eliminating the trinity. Not the gameplay consequences (though they are also noteworthy) but the near complete elimination of individual distinction and proficiency, and the boring interchangeability that replaced it.

This game seems to strongly want to become some kind of mmorpg-fps hybrid. FPS games don’t have roles, but the individual’s skill and proficiency can be quickly seen and praised. Here, everyone just rolls into one huge ball of mediocrity.

So what about all the people who want to play the game and aren’t naturally social. The old way force them to be social even if they’re antisocial and they end up destroying everyone else’s fun. That’s bad design.

Here you can find social people if you want to be social, but no one is forced to. What you’re saying is games should basically tell you who to be. I don’t agree with this.

Forcing people who don’t want to socialize to socialize will lead to some people being forced into something they don’t want to do, and some people refusing to do it and having to miss out on vast swathes of content.

I’d consider that far worse design.

Each class should have a selection of weapons that are more balanced for solo play. 90% of the game is open world communal events. If you want to do dungeons or pvp then it should have been clear from the “mmo” game description that you will be playing alongside other players. This is exactly what op was talking about: This is an mmo where everyone plays by themselves. And it is supremely shallow because of it.

I found myself playing far more by myself in other MMOs with the trinity. I was healing so I was looking at little green bars and not really playng with people at all. If I did well no one cared. If I did badly it was the end of the world.

Yeah it was very social. I’m so glad I don’t have to put up with that crap here.

I think your anecdote is irrelevant, if you didn’t enjoy healing then you shouldn’t have played a healer. Now of course people won’t rage at you for doing a “bad job”, support is mostly inconsequential.

Except people pressure you, if they know you have a healer to play one. It happens all the time. And if no one wants to heal there is no dungeon.

Great stuff. I wish I could do it all again.

It’s all this touchy feely candyland “no pressure” stuff that makes this game so bland. It finds the rock bottom players that don’t want to talk to anyone in an mmo and makes a game for them. Have fun man

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Strongly agree with OP. Vayne is in here again talking about how it’s the player’s responsibility to “be social” but he completely ignores basic human nature. An mmo game especially should provide some kind of backdrop or reason for you to contact specific people and to form communities based on mutual needs “I scratch your back you scratch mine”. There needs to be some reason for people to seek out other people. Once that’s done you can begin to have more meaningful interaction that goes beyond what you need in game and you can make friends. But if any schmuck can fill your party slot and even a monkey could do it then there’s no reason for you to begin to care about who is in your party because you can just get the next guy to fill the slot too.

To me, this has been the biggest downfall of eliminating the trinity. Not the gameplay consequences (though they are also noteworthy) but the near complete elimination of individual distinction and proficiency, and the boring interchangeability that replaced it.

This game seems to strongly want to become some kind of mmorpg-fps hybrid. FPS games don’t have roles, but the individual’s skill and proficiency can be quickly seen and praised. Here, everyone just rolls into one huge ball of mediocrity.

So what about all the people who want to play the game and aren’t naturally social. The old way force them to be social even if they’re antisocial and they end up destroying everyone else’s fun. That’s bad design.

Here you can find social people if you want to be social, but no one is forced to. What you’re saying is games should basically tell you who to be. I don’t agree with this.

Forcing people who don’t want to socialize to socialize will lead to some people being forced into something they don’t want to do, and some people refusing to do it and having to miss out on vast swathes of content.

I’d consider that far worse design.

Each class should have a selection of weapons that are more balanced for solo play. 90% of the game is open world communal events. If you want to do dungeons or pvp then it should have been clear from the “mmo” game description that you will be playing alongside other players. This is exactly what op was talking about: This is an mmo where everyone plays by themselves. And it is supremely shallow because of it.

I found myself playing far more by myself in other MMOs with the trinity. I was healing so I was looking at little green bars and not really playng with people at all. If I did well no one cared. If I did badly it was the end of the world.

Yeah it was very social. I’m so glad I don’t have to put up with that crap here.

I think your anecdote is irrelevant, if you didn’t enjoy healing then you shouldn’t have played a healer. Now of course people won’t rage at you for doing a “bad job”, support is mostly inconsequential.

Except people pressure you, if they know you have a healer to play one. It happens all the time. And if no one wants to heal there is no dungeon.

Great stuff. I wish I could do it all again.

It’s all this touchy feely candyland “no pressure” stuff that makes this game so bland. It finds the rock bottom players that don’t want to talk to anyone in an mmo and makes a game for them. Have fun man

Moreover the glaring issue exists that players can do every role with certain classes. When people lack something that makes them unique from other people, the game becomes very one dimensional.

Player Guildwars 2 is like going into a Team Fortress game where every single class is locked except for the soldier.

You DO NOT need the Trinity to have roles. But you DO need roles to have a successful game play experience.

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Strongly agree with OP. Vayne is in here again talking about how it’s the player’s responsibility to “be social” but he completely ignores basic human nature. An mmo game especially should provide some kind of backdrop or reason for you to contact specific people and to form communities based on mutual needs “I scratch your back you scratch mine”. There needs to be some reason for people to seek out other people. Once that’s done you can begin to have more meaningful interaction that goes beyond what you need in game and you can make friends. But if any schmuck can fill your party slot and even a monkey could do it then there’s no reason for you to begin to care about who is in your party because you can just get the next guy to fill the slot too.

To me, this has been the biggest downfall of eliminating the trinity. Not the gameplay consequences (though they are also noteworthy) but the near complete elimination of individual distinction and proficiency, and the boring interchangeability that replaced it.

This game seems to strongly want to become some kind of mmorpg-fps hybrid. FPS games don’t have roles, but the individual’s skill and proficiency can be quickly seen and praised. Here, everyone just rolls into one huge ball of mediocrity.

So what about all the people who want to play the game and aren’t naturally social. The old way force them to be social even if they’re antisocial and they end up destroying everyone else’s fun. That’s bad design.

Here you can find social people if you want to be social, but no one is forced to. What you’re saying is games should basically tell you who to be. I don’t agree with this.

Forcing people who don’t want to socialize to socialize will lead to some people being forced into something they don’t want to do, and some people refusing to do it and having to miss out on vast swathes of content.

I’d consider that far worse design.

Each class should have a selection of weapons that are more balanced for solo play. 90% of the game is open world communal events. If you want to do dungeons or pvp then it should have been clear from the “mmo” game description that you will be playing alongside other players. This is exactly what op was talking about: This is an mmo where everyone plays by themselves. And it is supremely shallow because of it.

I found myself playing far more by myself in other MMOs with the trinity. I was healing so I was looking at little green bars and not really playng with people at all. If I did well no one cared. If I did badly it was the end of the world.

Yeah it was very social. I’m so glad I don’t have to put up with that crap here.

I think your anecdote is irrelevant, if you didn’t enjoy healing then you shouldn’t have played a healer. Now of course people won’t rage at you for doing a “bad job”, support is mostly inconsequential.

Except people pressure you, if they know you have a healer to play one. It happens all the time. And if no one wants to heal there is no dungeon.

Great stuff. I wish I could do it all again.

It’s all this touchy feely candyland “no pressure” stuff that makes this game so bland. It finds the rock bottom players that don’t want to talk to anyone in an mmo and makes a game for them. Have fun man

I am having fun.

lordhelmos.7623:

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Vayne.8563:

milo.6942:

Strongly agree with OP. Vayne is in here again talking about how it’s the player’s responsibility to “be social” but he completely ignores basic human nature. An mmo game especially should provide some kind of backdrop or reason for you to contact specific people and to form communities based on mutual needs “I scratch your back you scratch mine”. There needs to be some reason for people to seek out other people. Once that’s done you can begin to have more meaningful interaction that goes beyond what you need in game and you can make friends. But if any schmuck can fill your party slot and even a monkey could do it then there’s no reason for you to begin to care about who is in your party because you can just get the next guy to fill the slot too.

To me, this has been the biggest downfall of eliminating the trinity. Not the gameplay consequences (though they are also noteworthy) but the near complete elimination of individual distinction and proficiency, and the boring interchangeability that replaced it.

This game seems to strongly want to become some kind of mmorpg-fps hybrid. FPS games don’t have roles, but the individual’s skill and proficiency can be quickly seen and praised. Here, everyone just rolls into one huge ball of mediocrity.

So what about all the people who want to play the game and aren’t naturally social. The old way force them to be social even if they’re antisocial and they end up destroying everyone else’s fun. That’s bad design.

Here you can find social people if you want to be social, but no one is forced to. What you’re saying is games should basically tell you who to be. I don’t agree with this.

Forcing people who don’t want to socialize to socialize will lead to some people being forced into something they don’t want to do, and some people refusing to do it and having to miss out on vast swathes of content.

I’d consider that far worse design.

Each class should have a selection of weapons that are more balanced for solo play. 90% of the game is open world communal events. If you want to do dungeons or pvp then it should have been clear from the “mmo” game description that you will be playing alongside other players. This is exactly what op was talking about: This is an mmo where everyone plays by themselves. And it is supremely shallow because of it.

I found myself playing far more by myself in other MMOs with the trinity. I was healing so I was looking at little green bars and not really playng with people at all. If I did well no one cared. If I did badly it was the end of the world.

Yeah it was very social. I’m so glad I don’t have to put up with that crap here.

I think your anecdote is irrelevant, if you didn’t enjoy healing then you shouldn’t have played a healer. Now of course people won’t rage at you for doing a “bad job”, support is mostly inconsequential.

Except people pressure you, if they know you have a healer to play one. It happens all the time. And if no one wants to heal there is no dungeon.

Great stuff. I wish I could do it all again.

It’s all this touchy feely candyland “no pressure” stuff that makes this game so bland. It finds the rock bottom players that don’t want to talk to anyone in an mmo and makes a game for them. Have fun man

Moreover the glaring issue exists that players can do every role with certain classes. When people lack something that makes them unique from other people, the game becomes very one dimensional.

Player Guildwars 2 is like going into a Team Fortress game where every single class is locked except for the soldier.

You DO NOT need the Trinity to have roles. But you DO need roles to have a successful game play experience.

I completely disagree with this. I’ve had many successful game experiences without roles. It might just have to do with personal preference. See, I dislike having roles. And doesn’t make my experience better or more fun.

So maybe there are 87 zillion MMOs out there with roles and one without, and the people supporting this game are trying to make it so that there’s at least one MMO for us to play.

The game really redefines support roles. I thought i’d miss playing a healing class, but i don’t. I can easily play an ele or guardian and get my support itch scratched quite nicely, even Engi or ranger have pretty good support roles. But then again i enjoy cooperative team play in this games mechanics.

The best teamwork you will get in GW2 is: “Hug wall and AoE. Only Warriors, Guardian and Elementalist”

Zoid.2568:

The best teamwork you will get in GW2 is: “Hug wall and AoE. Only Warriors, Guardian and Elementalist”

The epitome of teamwork, surely ANet’s dream system as they’ve made zero attempts to change it.

munkiman.3068:

The game really redefines support roles. I thought i’d miss playing a healing class, but i don’t. I can easily play an ele or guardian and get my support itch scratched quite nicely, even Engi or ranger have pretty good support roles. But then again i enjoy cooperative team play in this games mechanics.

You’re just convincing yourself you’re not being deadweight.

Going pure zerker warrior would help the team WAY more than 200-300 healing every few seconds in the land of one shot kills.

lordhelmos.7623:

As stated, my friends and I came to Guildwars 2 with a small and tightly knit guild. Since our 1 year+ of playing, our group has not really expanded. In fact, many of us have lost interest in Guildwars 2 and have been doing other things to kill the time.

We all agree that there is a strong lack of social activities in Guildwars 2 due to the following:

LACK OF DEFINED ROLES AND TOO MUCH INDEPENDENT CLASS POWER

Roles are not defined in Guildwars 2 and the zerker meta continues to hurt the community. In other games, players are forced to become dependent on other players in order to survive. In Guildwars 2 certain classes are so independently powerful and are able to do so many overlapping roles by themselves that the need for other players is extinguished.

Rather than promoting group dynamics, players instead group up with independently powerful classes that are easy to play (heavies) and steamroll content before simply disbanding.

In other games, where roles are defined, you added tanks and healers to your friends list because you needed them. Forced group cooperation helped to foster player relationships because players HAD to work together to succeed. People in your group offered things that you could never do on your own. In Guildwars 2, you don’t need the other players but instead they are there to simply bolster your own independent power. When classes under perform independently, they are unwanted (ex: ranger).

While Guildwars 2 does many cooperative things right (combo fields, rally system), it does too much more wrong (single classes able to do all the roles of the party [warrior: damage/heal/boon/tank/control]). Players are not promoted to make strong relationships or depend on other players because other players bring very little to the table that they can’t do themselves.

Guildwars 2 does very little to capitalized on its teamwork systems (i.e. some of the most powerful combo field attacks being able to be done just by one person [engineer turret aoe healing], Guardian hammer spam on self-dropped fields).

Extending into WvW and PvP. The mesmer and thief are so independently powerful because of how stupid the stealth mechanic is that they just abandon players that attempt to fight along side them due to their access to an infinite number of escapes. The extreme 1v1 capabilities of these classes leads to them to be superior due to power creep and only encourages them to align with other thieves or mesmers to troll.

Other players attempting to roam with these classes in WvW just end up being deadweight.

LACK OF GUILD ACTIVITIES:

Aside from the limited Guild dailies, there are no raids, no GvG, and no content that focuses on guild cooperation. Instead we have large zerg events where the scale is so huge that the independent contribution of a smaller player party matters very little. There is no way to isolate the rewards to the players who promoted the most teamwork when there are 200+ people participating in a giant lagfest that usually encompasses pressing 1 for 30 mins.

Havoc squads are the closest thing to organized small group combat, but they get crushed by large zergs that do little to promote team skill. Certain escape classes simple abandon allies when this happens to lone wolf.

ENTIRE GAME REVOLVES AROUND MELEE:

All the group buffs in the game are 600m or less on average. There are very few targeted area heals. Players are encouraged simply to stand next to each other and stack heavy boon classes (warrior/guardian) to achieve near godlike status. The gameplay does not promote any kind of strategic positioning. In fact, positioning barely matters at all in Guildwars 2 unless your ranged and out of the “god” temple of your companions. Then you are told you are playing wrong.

This just leads to a boring dynamic that encourages stacking and button mashing with very little strategy or teamplay.

OVERALL SHALLOWNESS AND TL;DR:

Overall the failing of the above systems (too much independent class power, lack of roles, melee focused gameplay with no teamwork, very little guild support/content) makes the game feel like a very shallow cooperative experience. As a result, most of us in at least my group, have lost interest and just check back every now and then to see if things ever got better (only to find more Scarlet Briar while larger issues are ignored or not being solved in a reasonable time table [1 year, same problems or empty promises in the shunned classes forums]).

Ultimately the current systems of Guildwars 2 promote very little cooperation and instead result in selfish gameplay. Large zerg events do not promote teamwork and are too large and chaotic to reward team synergy.

great post!

it’s sad to see all the posts in this thread that don’t get the clearly laid out messages and concerns you brought up. oh well.

Guardian.5142:

You need a different guild, mate. An awesome group of folks and an active GM that likes to run events makes a lot of this crap more… temporarily forgettable. I mean, its still there, but you feel less inclined to think about it being against you.

Not saying you should leave your friends, but a more active guild with lots more people doing the things you want to makes the game better for those who need this sort of interaction. Find a new home and bring them over too!

that does not resolve the core issues the op brought up.

Vayne.8563:

My guild is 160 strong. We have a blast together.

But the truth is, game mechanics don’t make you social. Game mechanics might force you to play together. That’s why so many guilds in places like WoW implode. People aren’t there for people, they’re there to win.

And as long as that’s the case…you can’t call it social.

great for you and your guild!

you’re right, nothing can make anyone social, but game mechanics can help encourage more socialization and improve player retention. also, there were a lot of messages in the op that you glossed over just to spin doctor 1 point.

Game mechanics that force dependence don’t encourage positive socialization. They are great for fostering codependency though. Healthy relationships are built on mutual desire and choice, not need.

As soon as I saw the thread title I knew I was in for a good read. The lack of teamplay and synergy among classes and skills is really a major issue with this game, and needs to be addressed by adding way more skills, and rebalancing the ones we have. And please, no one better try mentioning those kittenty kitten “combo fields” as an example of teamplay. The y’re the most watered down, brain dead things I can imagine.

its not that GW2 doesnt have use for multiple roles support etc, its that PVE is designed to be hard to fail at.
If enemies moved from AOE, CC burst, use AOE on stacking players and used more heals, you would have to coordinate to succeed.

However you have to ask yourself if players really want this type of play, i think most would call the game cheap, and quit. I mean really consider how many times most people fight the most difficult bosses/paths/enemies
perhaps people just like coordinated but simple/easy like the regular trinity, makes one feel like they’re really smart when they are basically just robots.

The Spiral King.2483:

As soon as I saw the thread title I knew I was in for a good read. The lack of teamplay and synergy among classes and skills is really a major issue with this game, and needs to be addressed by adding way more skills, and rebalancing the ones we have. And please, no one better try mentioning those kittenty kitten “combo fields” as an example of teamplay. The y’re the most watered down, brain dead things I can imagine.

what is it that you consider to be teamplay?

Lack of Defined Roles

Yes, ANet could have made support and control a little more useful. But they were trying to avoid the situation where players couldn’t do X content unless they had a support or a control. Because that’s the biggest con to the typical trinity. The time it could take to find a healer or a tank in order to do content. So they can’t make support OR control too needed. Because let’s face it, most players prefer to do damage. And the current DE’s and world bosses require damage to get credit.

If they create well defined roles, they’ll get yelled at for breaking yet another promise. If they don’t, then there will likely always just be one meta: what gives me the most DPS. And that can be boring and it doesn’t create a sense of I’m needed in the group.

Guild Activities

Yes, ANet could do some reworking on the guild activities to add more or make them more likely to succeed with just a small group of members. Just like some temple events will scale too high if too many people try to help, make some guild activities scale too high. Promote smaller group play and make those missions cheaper so that smaller guilds can unlock them since those would be perfect activities for smaller guilds.

But beyond that, individual guilds can create their own events. Where the reward is more on the intangible side than an in game reward.

Stacking

Yes, something needs to be done to encourage players to not stack. But how I do not know.

All I know is, I’m glad this game doesn’t force me to find other players to play with. Because I’m not super social and I like the challenge of soloing things.

Specific roles and instances where multiple people are forced to work together, not just in a “let’s all dps the boss at the same time.” I suppose I am essentially referring to a lack of what is known as the trinity. I know many people don’t like that for some reason, but it added structure and forced people to cooperate. You’re a healer? You’re going to have to accept you can’t perform a certain role, and operate for the team as a whole. You’re a tank? Same thing. I miss that about GW1, and really any RPG that involves a team.

Having everyone do the same thing (DPS in GW2’s case) is just so dull. I understand some people like that, I’m not going to try and change their minds, I just wish it wasn’t so. Sure, you could run a water ele, pure cleric’s build right now. But in basically all content, you’re just slowing things down, you’re not NECESSARY. Like I said in my last post, and in partial agreement with the OP, there’s just not enough mandated teamwork in this game. When I run a dungeon, I feel like we’re running it as five separate entities who happen to be following the same path and objective. I’ve never felt a sense of true teamwork.

lordhelmos.7623:

ENTIRE GAME REVOLVES AROUND MELEE:

All the group buffs in the game are 600m or less on average. There are very few targeted area heals. Players are encouraged simply to stand next to each other and stack heavy boon classes (warrior/guardian) to achieve near godlike status. The gameplay does not promote any kind of strategic positioning. In fact, positioning barely matters at all in Guildwars 2 unless your ranged and out of the “god” temple of your companions. Then you are told you are playing wrong.

This just leads to a boring dynamic that encourages stacking and button mashing with very little strategy or teamplay.

Your 100% right there. There are no targetable healing skills. The stacking will only be worse once they nerf critical damage.

The Spiral King.2483:

Specific roles and instances where multiple people are forced to work together, not just in a “let’s all dps the boss at the same time.” I suppose I am essentially referring to a lack of what is known as the trinity. I know many people don’t like that for some reason, but it added structure and forced people to cooperate. You’re a healer? You’re going to have to accept you can’t perform a certain role, and operate for the team as a whole. You’re a tank? Same thing. I miss that about GW1, and really any RPG that involves a team.

Having everyone do the same thing (DPS in GW2’s case) is just so dull. I understand some people like that, I’m not going to try and change their minds, I just wish it wasn’t so. Sure, you could run a water ele, pure cleric’s build right now. But in basically all content, you’re just slowing things down, you’re not NECESSARY. Like I said in my last post, and in partial agreement with the OP, there’s just not enough mandated teamwork in this game. When I run a dungeon, I feel like we’re running it as five separate entities who happen to be following the same path and objective. I’ve never felt a sense of true teamwork.

Teamwork is not dependency, the trinity creates dependency systems, where you must have X Y Z to succeed. Teamwork sometimes involves dependency, but more often its working together to be more successful.

How beneficial teamwork is in the game is huge, the main difference is they dont auto fail you for lack of teamwork. proper use of team defense, positioning, buffs, and debuffs make worlds of difference. But they also allow you to play kitten seperate entities (not automatically dying if tank fails, or healer fails) It will take longer, probably give more deaths, and be more chaotic, but its possible.

As for stacking, though i dislike it, its incredibly teamwork oriented, generally requiring all players to position carefully, sometimes controlling the mob to get him in a position thats advantageous, with coordinated use of debuffs and support to buff dmg and decrease dmg taken in focused few moments, with people working together to recover any fallen players as fast as possible.

like i said its really an encounter design/AI issue but even you say you dont really want difficulty, just more dependency. I dont see stacking being better if it was stacking because the tank had the monster attacking him, with someone else healing him, and the others hitting the monster from safety. In fact sounds way more boring to me than even stacking normally is.

Xillllix.3485:

lordhelmos.7623:

ENTIRE GAME REVOLVES AROUND MELEE:

All the group buffs in the game are 600m or less on average. There are very few targeted area heals. Players are encouraged simply to stand next to each other and stack heavy boon classes (warrior/guardian) to achieve near godlike status. The gameplay does not promote any kind of strategic positioning. In fact, positioning barely matters at all in Guildwars 2 unless your ranged and out of the “god” temple of your companions. Then you are told you are playing wrong.

This just leads to a boring dynamic that encourages stacking and button mashing with very little strategy or teamplay.

Your 100% right there. There are no targetable healing skills. The stacking will only be worse once they nerf critical damage.

targetted healing from long range is kind of lame, you take little to no risk doing targetted heals.

phys.7689:

Xillllix.3485:

lordhelmos.7623:

ENTIRE GAME REVOLVES AROUND MELEE:

All the group buffs in the game are 600m or less on average. There are very few targeted area heals. Players are encouraged simply to stand next to each other and stack heavy boon classes (warrior/guardian) to achieve near godlike status. The gameplay does not promote any kind of strategic positioning. In fact, positioning barely matters at all in Guildwars 2 unless your ranged and out of the “god” temple of your companions. Then you are told you are playing wrong.

This just leads to a boring dynamic that encourages stacking and button mashing with very little strategy or teamplay.

Your 100% right there. There are no targetable healing skills. The stacking will only be worse once they nerf critical damage.

targetted healing from long range is kind of lame, you take little to no risk doing targetted heals.

I heavily disagree with this because its only no risk if the enemy mobs have nothing they can attack the backline with. This is an encounter design flaw.

Enemies should have a variety of attacks that makes it so that people hiding at range need to be aware.

In fact having a proper midline/backline setup promotes MORE teamwork because it becomes even more important for the frontline attackers to use walls/cc/and strategy to keep their supporters in the backline protected.

lordhelmos.7623:

phys.7689:

Xillllix.3485:

lordhelmos.7623:

ENTIRE GAME REVOLVES AROUND MELEE:

All the group buffs in the game are 600m or less on average. There are very few targeted area heals. Players are encouraged simply to stand next to each other and stack heavy boon classes (warrior/guardian) to achieve near godlike status. The gameplay does not promote any kind of strategic positioning. In fact, positioning barely matters at all in Guildwars 2 unless your ranged and out of the “god” temple of your companions. Then you are told you are playing wrong.

This just leads to a boring dynamic that encourages stacking and button mashing with very little strategy or teamplay.

Your 100% right there. There are no targetable healing skills. The stacking will only be worse once they nerf critical damage.

targetted healing from long range is kind of lame, you take little to no risk doing targetted heals.

I heavily disagree with this because its only no risk if the enemy mobs have nothing they can attack the backline with. This is an encounter design flaw.

Enemies should have a variety of attacks that makes it so that people hiding at range need to be aware.

In fact having a proper midline/backline setup promotes MORE teamwork because it becomes even more important for the frontline attackers to use walls/cc/and strategy to keep their supporters in the backline protected.

There are tons of assaults on the mid and back row of a group… just think about all the AoE poison fields, chaos storms and encounters that are designed to drive everyone into melee range. I don’t see how re-adding the acient targeted heal mechanic could do any good in this game- in fact, the support we have on paper is interesting and rewarding enough to play (maybe some better scaling with healpower- that stat is almost worthless in most cases).

However I totally agree that stacking melees in a corner is the unbreakable meta for a reason. Another thing that screws any sort of support build is that capped might stacks and some condi cleanse are all the support you need for speedruns and nuking bosses and you don’t need a single at least semi supportspecced class to achieve this due to how selfreliant and selfstustaining everyone is nomatter their build.

Imo the only way to have fun in dungeons is to run them with friends and guildies who agree that having a comfy clear-run (fun) is more important than to be most efficient. Support and teamwork is definetly not promoted by the current game, it’s actually the opposite.

lordhelmos.7623:

phys.7689:

Xillllix.3485:

lordhelmos.7623:

ENTIRE GAME REVOLVES AROUND MELEE:

All the group buffs in the game are 600m or less on average. There are very few targeted area heals. Players are encouraged simply to stand next to each other and stack heavy boon classes (warrior/guardian) to achieve near godlike status. The gameplay does not promote any kind of strategic positioning. In fact, positioning barely matters at all in Guildwars 2 unless your ranged and out of the “god” temple of your companions. Then you are told you are playing wrong.

This just leads to a boring dynamic that encourages stacking and button mashing with very little strategy or teamplay.

Your 100% right there. There are no targetable healing skills. The stacking will only be worse once they nerf critical damage.

targetted healing from long range is kind of lame, you take little to no risk doing targetted heals.

I heavily disagree with this because its only no risk if the enemy mobs have nothing they can attack the backline with. This is an encounter design flaw.

Enemies should have a variety of attacks that makes it so that people hiding at range need to be aware.

the idea behind most support in this game is that the group has to work together to make the best use of it. Healers/supporters/helpers have to get close to their targets, and people who need help have to either stay still or get close to the supporter. This requires more teamwork to use effectively, and its why support people often want swiftness even in combat, or the ability to move around the field easily. By making it so you have to get close to the target you want to help, you make it so the healer is taking a risk, by going into the more dangerous area, and then getting out of it. When a supporter is able to hit any allies, from a distance, the allies themselves dont have to be aware of positioning, or whats going on.

As far as i can see, support is way deeper by not having long range targetable support, teamwork required to use it effectively is increased, and risk versus reward for supporter is increased as well.

I will agree that generally encounter design/ai doesnt promote teamwork, but i dont think targeted heals actually makes the game require more teamwork/depth

Escadin.9482:

lordhelmos.7623:

phys.7689:

Xillllix.3485:

lordhelmos.7623:

ENTIRE GAME REVOLVES AROUND MELEE:

All the group buffs in the game are 600m or less on average. There are very few targeted area heals. Players are encouraged simply to stand next to each other and stack heavy boon classes (warrior/guardian) to achieve near godlike status. The gameplay does not promote any kind of strategic positioning. In fact, positioning barely matters at all in Guildwars 2 unless your ranged and out of the “god” temple of your companions. Then you are told you are playing wrong.

This just leads to a boring dynamic that encourages stacking and button mashing with very little strategy or teamplay.

Your 100% right there. There are no targetable healing skills. The stacking will only be worse once they nerf critical damage.

targetted healing from long range is kind of lame, you take little to no risk doing targetted heals.

I heavily disagree with this because its only no risk if the enemy mobs have nothing they can attack the backline with. This is an encounter design flaw.

Enemies should have a variety of attacks that makes it so that people hiding at range need to be aware.

In fact having a proper midline/backline setup promotes MORE teamwork because it becomes even more important for the frontline attackers to use walls/cc/and strategy to keep their supporters in the backline protected.

There are tons of assaults on the mid and back row of a group… just think about all the AoE poison fields, chaos storms and encounters that are designed to drive everyone into melee range.

However I totally agree that stacking melees in a corner is the unbreakable meta for a reason. Another thing that screws any sort of support build is that capped might stacks and some condi cleanse are all the support you need for speedruns and nuking bosses and you don’t need a single at least semi supportspecced class to achieve this due to how selfreliant and selfstustaining everyone is nomatter their build.

Imo the only way to have fun in dungeons is to run them with friends and guildies who agree that having a comfy clear-run (fun) is more important than to be most efficient.

hmm i think for some classes the support specs are very powerful, however this is mostly due to traits, the stat system itself doesnt reward any thing as much as it rewards DPS. no stats for control, no stats for support, stats for tanking do a lot less for tanking skills.
I wouldnt mind this so much, except if they wanted a game where stats didnt determine playstyle much, why have stats at all, would be better to just use a skill/trait system.