Guild Wars 2

Besides, something I’ve never understood about these kind of discussions is the intellectual laziness of crowds sweeping in and telling “PHIWs” to “find a guild that is willing to share their interest.” When you’re pugging, you pretty much forfeit your right to give a kitten about what somebody else is wearing. If you want a full zerk meta group – join a guild. It’s like the laziness of pugging should only be detrimental to “PHIWs” and not “meta-gamers.”

I use these quoted terms loosely though because against what someone previously mentioned in this thread, someone wearing zerk isn’t automatically a credible fountain of experience. It just means they’re wearing zerk.

Cuddy.6247:

When you’re pugging, you pretty much forfeit your right to give a kitten about what somebody else is wearing.

Then why do they allow descriptions on the LFG posts? They could’ve done it like how sPVP works, click a button and the game puts you in a random group.

maddoctor.2738:

Cuddy.6247:

When you’re pugging, you pretty much forfeit your right to give a kitten about what somebody else is wearing.

Then why do they allow descriptions on the LFG posts? They could’ve done it like how sPVP works, click a button and the game puts you in a random group.

Because unlike sPvP dungeons have three paths (in rare cases more), a story, etc. Clarifying what you’re doing is important – how you do it, not so much. Your post is just another example of the laziness I was describing.

It’s ironic that as I type, I notice someone is posting a requirement for AC p1 run as a “80 zerker only group”…as a necromancer. As if the expectation of metagame tactics as a necromancer is not a contradiction. It’s just so much buffoonery that I have a hard time believing anyone actually believes this crap.

Cuddy.6247:

Besides, something I’ve never understood about these kind of discussions is the intellectual laziness of crowds sweeping in and telling “PHIWs” to “find a guild that is willing to share their interest.” When you’re pugging, you pretty much forfeit your right to give a kitten about what somebody else is wearing. If you want a full zerk meta group – join a guild. It’s like the laziness of pugging should only be detrimental to “PHIWs” and not “meta-gamers.”

I use these quoted terms loosely though because against what someone previously mentioned in this thread, someone wearing zerk isn’t automatically a credible fountain of experience. It just means they’re wearing zerk.

The thing is most zerk players (I can’t speak for all of them) do have their own guild and do form their own groups in the lfg. We play with like minded people. PHIW people (again i can’t speak for all of them) insist that we must play with them, and that they should be entitled to any group they want. Most lack the initiative to form their own groups, we “elitest jerks” form our own group all the time.

Cuddy.6247:

maddoctor.2738:

Then why do they allow descriptions on the LFG posts? They could’ve done it like how sPVP works, click a button and the game puts you in a random group.

Because unlike sPvP dungeons have three paths (in rare cases more), a story, etc. Clarifying what you’re doing is important – how you do it, not so much. Your post is just another example of the laziness I was describing.

No, this is you playing semantics. It would not even be unheard of to have a system where you specify what you want to run and then get put into a random group.

Basaltface.2786:

seriosly… why we just dont make a system that gives people auto zerk and meta builds once they enter a dungeon and no way to change it… thats what you people ask for anyways.

We just want a system that lets us play with people we want to play with and keeps all the other people away.

This idea has hardly anything positive to offer to the game. However, it will indeed create a huge rage-wave, if it actually gets implemented.

We already saw what happened with Ncsoft’s title that was directed towards ‘’hard core’’ people.

Cuddy.6247:

Silalus.8760:

What on earth is bad about measuring performance in a game?

Because games are games and not jobs. If you’re attitude toward a game is legitimately “maximize performance” – might I suggest taking that attitude to the employment scene and then, instead of playing games, have so much money you can enjoy cruises, safaris and an unlimited potential of new games to play? Nobody in their right mind should want to keep pushing the boundaries of effort in video games when they do it on a regular basis in every other [important] facet of their life.

You may not suggest that. If I want to live every aspect of my life through the “maximizing performance” mantra – that’s my choice and you have nothing to say about it.

If I want to play with just one category of players and exclude all others – that’s my choice and you can’t really say anything about it.

It’s a game – like you said – and there’s nothing to force me to play with people I don’t want to play with or interact with.

Maybe me and the others who play like this aren’t in our right minds – but here’s the catch – it doesn’t matter since it’s not up to you to judge or impose on how we want to play the game.

Ironically – you and people who support your point of view don’t realize that what you want to avoid ( having a certain play style imposed via gear check) is exactly what you do to us by joining parties where you’re not wanted or welcome because you don’t adhere to our methods or our mentality.

So – it’s kind of ironic isn’kitten

On this topic – i’ve said it before – Anet would benefit if they made a set of tools that allowed the “play how I want” and “elitist” players to never have to interact or play together.

That’s where the tension comes from. If tools were put in place and these two groups never had anything to do with each other again things would be much better.

Altair.8402:

Dante.1763:

They will get harassed. if they join a party whos leader has it turned on, and they dont. guess what, the harassment starts. If 1 person is advertising for a run and a party of 2 or 3 join and demand a gear check and if that person doesnt want to, Toddles.

Having this solves nothing and does nothing for the game.

No thank you. Pinging gear is quick enough already. Takes barely any time to shift click all the gear in your inventory. would it be a little faster? maybe.But its not needed.

That’s not all that different from the way things are right now. You have your zerks only ping gear or kick groups, and you have your all are welcome groups. People who don’t like one type will join the other type. Having this feature won’t do anything to affect that.

Windsagio.1340:

It’s more complex than that though, they’d have to build an entire ‘inspect’ ui for looking at other players.

I can’t imagine it’ll be too hard to implement… they already have something similar for previewing dyes and armor.

It’s much different. One is player implemented, the other would be Anet implemented. I don’t feel a gear check built into the game is inline with the game concept.

Lifestealer.4910:

The thing is most zerk players (I can’t speak for all of them) do have their own guild and do form their own groups in the lfg. We play with like minded people. PHIW people (again i can’t speak for all of them) insist that we must play with them, and that they should be entitled to any group they want. Most lack the initiative to form their own groups, we “elitest jerks” form our own group all the time.

Then use that guild to form your group with all the expected criteria met. As I’ve said, the moment you PUG you forfeit your right to care about who joins your group, because it’s not like gear makes a competent player in the first place. Your inability to grasp such a basic level of understanding doesn’t magically rid you of accountability for the tools you use or the illogical reason behind your discrimination with those tools.

Tim.6450:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Instead of an “inspect gear” checkbox, they should make a checkbox for “meta” in the LFG tool. When you put the party in LFG and check the “meta” option, people that aren’t running meta builds are automatically kicked or simply cannot join the group at all. That would be a much better solution than a “inspect gear” option.

And who will decide meta? Some random player nobody knows about? Also it means that with every balance patch the lfg has to be adapted to the new meta. So quite a bit of effort for a small problem with lots of extra problems waiting around the corner.

The community will decide on meta, same as always. Not “some random players nobody knows about”. Do you know what “meta” means?

And my suggestion doesn’t have to be as complicated as you think. They could simply expand on the LFG system the same way they expanded on the TP search engine. Just add an extra menu to the LFG system similar to the image I attached to this post and allow the LFG started to fill in gear and level requirements to filter out unwanted people.

Harper.4173:

You may not suggest that. If I want to live every aspect of my life through the “maximizing performance” mantra – that’s my choice and you have nothing to say about it.

If I want to play with just one category of players and exclude all others – that’s my choice and you can’t really say anything about it.

It’s a game – like you said – and there’s nothing to force me to play with people I don’t want to play with or interact with.

In other words, you’re just lazy and your dogmatic adherence to performance is just a front to get away with being an incompetent kitten.

Nobody’s telling you not to play how you want, regardless of what method that might be – but your discrimination is not a right extended to a pugging tool. You don’t have rights by virtue of you breathing. When you use the tool, you adhere the random nature of the tool, an illogical foundation for your argument (since zerk does not equate to skill and therefore a player wearing zerk does not immediately offer more contribution) is not a supplement for argument.

I’ve never once stated anything about imposition, but simply the randomness of the LFG tool. You abide by the nature of the tool, not your self-interest. It’s not irony, it’s logic – you’re a fool if you can’t grasp such basic reasoning.

They do make tools so individual crowds do not have to interact. They’re called guilds and a friend’s list. The nature of the LFG tool though will never account for the skill ceiling of a player, which makes all arguments about gear checks or LFG discrimination invalid. It’s an incentive to be friendly and actually build relationships through the game rather than expecting randoms to pick up the ball where you’re too negligent to continue.

Honestly, this is just me talking, I really don’t care anymore. If they want a tool to sort out the “unwashed masses”, then go for it. I stay far away from their groups anyway. Just give me a box to tick that gives the middle finger to someone wanting to inspect me.

Cuddy.6247:

Lifestealer.4910:

The thing is most zerk players (I can’t speak for all of them) do have their own guild and do form their own groups in the lfg. We play with like minded people. PHIW people (again i can’t speak for all of them) insist that we must play with them, and that they should be entitled to any group they want. Most lack the initiative to form their own groups, we “elitest jerks” form our own group all the time.

Then use that guild to form your group with all the expected criteria met. As I’ve said, the moment you PUG you forfeit your right to care about who joins your group, because it’s not like gear makes a competent player in the first place. Your inability to grasp such a basic level of understanding doesn’t magically rid you of accountability for the tools you use or the illogical reason behind your discrimination with those tools.

Actually the moment i form a group, i don’t forfeit anything. If a person does not fit my criteria i can always kick. LFG descriptions are used to clearly set up standards for the party, if you PHIW don’t like it, you can always go make your own group like i did. Don’t pollute our party with your nonsense.

Maybe its you that do not understand, you call it illogical but i say that is just your opinion in which most people don’t share.

Cuddy.6247:

snip

this is some first rate bullkitten right here, or you simply don’t understand what random means
the lfg tool is not random, as every party listed has a description, and you are free to choose what party to join
(for and example of a random tool look at wow’s lfg , and lfr)
And the lfg tool not being random is exactly the reason for people who list their parties there to have the right to set up a standard for their party members, because they are not blindly matched together
For example I see some parties that want people to have 5k+ ap (which is pretty ridiculous imo), and I don’t join them because i have 2,6-7k; it is not too hard to respect your fellow player’s choices

a gear inspect would be nice; you could even use it to see what is that armor skin you like
I don’t think it will ever happen though as anet seems to cater to shortsightedness as this

There is a far more elegant solution to this.

The issue isn’t the gear. It’s the players.

In one hand, you have players who run a dungeon 15 times per hour, 20 hours per day, and are focused on maximizing performance per minute, yet lack the knowledge to programe a bot (since they are doing it to get the reward and don’t really care about the experience). Those are the ones who claim everyone with a different mentality is “lazy”, “incompetent”, etc.

In other hand, we have players who just want to have fun, and if they get to win, also get some stuff.

The first group of players don’t want to play with the second, nor the second with the first one. So let’s just split them.

Players get an option to tick a box saying they’re “Just berseker” players (“jerker” for short). Once a “jerker” has identified himself, he can only join party with other “jerkers”, and not with anyone else. Party search won’t even show, much less allow common players to join “jerker” parties, or the other way around.

This way, everyone is happy – the “jerkers” go play by themselves, and the common players go play by themselves. No need to add fancy new user interface for gear check or anything.

Lifestealer.4910:

Cuddy.6247:

Lifestealer.4910:

The thing is most zerk players (I can’t speak for all of them) do have their own guild and do form their own groups in the lfg. We play with like minded people. PHIW people (again i can’t speak for all of them) insist that we must play with them, and that they should be entitled to any group they want. Most lack the initiative to form their own groups, we “elitest jerks” form our own group all the time.

Then use that guild to form your group with all the expected criteria met. As I’ve said, the moment you PUG you forfeit your right to care about who joins your group, because it’s not like gear makes a competent player in the first place. Your inability to grasp such a basic level of understanding doesn’t magically rid you of accountability for the tools you use or the illogical reason behind your discrimination with those tools.

Actually the moment i form a group, i don’t forfeit anything. If a person does not fit my criteria i can always kick. LFG descriptions are used to clearly set up standards for the party, if you PHIW don’t like it, you can always go make your own group like i did. Don’t pollute our party with your nonsense.

Maybe its you that do not understand, you call it illogical but i say that is just your opinion in which most people don’t share.

Explain to me how it’s illogical, then. Use reasoning. It’s as basic as it gets:

Zerk != Skill

The inherent risk of inviting anyone with LFG doesn’t matter if they have Zerk gear or not, because Zerk gear doesn’t automatically equal contribution. You instead want the community to foot the bill of your grievous failure at being socially approachable. You have inherent risks with any PUG, you forfeit your rights to discriminate when you PUG but you maintain your right to leave/vote to kick. Your incompetence is not logical, in fact – it’s the exact opposite. I am not accountable for your ineptitude, so please don’t shovel on bullkitten like it’s my responsibility.

My only responsibility, as well as yours, is to accept the LFG tool as a pugging system to acquire players for specific content (not to play content a specific way). You’ve made LFG ads and had people join them who were likely to your standards, get out of your own head for a little while and befriend them. Boom, you just got another person who you can invite. People who use LFG on a regular basis, expecting particular results, are foolish, incompetent and deserving of their frustrations for being incapable of establishing a social network.

Cuddy.6247:

Lifestealer.4910:

Cuddy.6247:

Lifestealer.4910:

The thing is most zerk players (I can’t speak for all of them) do have their own guild and do form their own groups in the lfg. We play with like minded people. PHIW people (again i can’t speak for all of them) insist that we must play with them, and that they should be entitled to any group they want. Most lack the initiative to form their own groups, we “elitest jerks” form our own group all the time.

Then use that guild to form your group with all the expected criteria met. As I’ve said, the moment you PUG you forfeit your right to care about who joins your group, because it’s not like gear makes a competent player in the first place. Your inability to grasp such a basic level of understanding doesn’t magically rid you of accountability for the tools you use or the illogical reason behind your discrimination with those tools.

Actually the moment i form a group, i don’t forfeit anything. If a person does not fit my criteria i can always kick. LFG descriptions are used to clearly set up standards for the party, if you PHIW don’t like it, you can always go make your own group like i did. Don’t pollute our party with your nonsense.

Maybe its you that do not understand, you call it illogical but i say that is just your opinion in which most people don’t share.

Explain to me how it’s illogical, then. Use reasoning. It’s as basic as it gets:

Zerk != Skill

The inherent risk of inviting anyone with LFG doesn’t matter if they have Zerk gear or not, because Zerk gear doesn’t automatically equal contribution. You instead want the community to foot the bill of your grievous failure at being socially approachable. You have inherent risks with any PUG, you forfeit your rights to discriminate when you PUG but you maintain your right to leave/vote to kick. Your incompetence is not logical, in fact – it’s the exact opposite. I am not accountable for your ineptitude, so please don’t shovel on bullkitten like it’s my responsibility.

zerk does not equal skill but it shows the players mindset, which makes a big difference. When a guy goes zerk, he obviously wants to complete the dungeon as fast and as effeciently, whether he has the capability or not is irrelevant as i said its the mindset that matter. I don’t look for skillful pugs but i do look for zerk because guess what?.. in most situation a zerker who does dps and dies in 5 second contributes more than a pvt guy who survives the entire fight.

As for the rest of your post, its just a bunch of nonsense that tries too hard to personally attack me. Also nobody is discriminating, just because i do not want to play with the likes of you does not mean i am discriminating, its as simple as i just don’t play with you.

EDIT: Why would i want to befriend with people i don’t want to play with?.. You say i have social problem because i do not want to party with a particular group of people?.. and i wonder whose being “illogical”.

Test.8734:

There is a far more elegant solution to this.

The issue isn’t the gear. It’s the players.

In one hand, you have players who run a dungeon 15 times per hour, 20 hours per day, and are focused on maximizing performance per minute, yet lack the knowledge to programe a bot (since they are doing it to get the reward and don’t really care about the experience). Those are the ones who claim everyone with a different mentality is “lazy”, “incompetent”, etc.

In other hand, we have players who just want to have fun, and if they get to win, also get some stuff.

The first group of players don’t want to play with the second, nor the second with the first one. So let’s just split them.

Players get an option to tick a box saying they’re “Just berseker” players (“jerker” for short). Once a “jerker” has identified himself, he can only join party with other “jerkers”, and not with anyone else. Party search won’t even show, much less allow common players to join “jerker” parties, or the other way around.

This way, everyone is happy – the “jerkers” go play by themselves, and the common players go play by themselves. No need to add fancy new user interface for gear check or anything.

Maybe Anet can make a server just for them. That way they won’t have to deal with us at all. Only people with meta builds will be allowed on the server and any time you’re not adhering to the meta you get kicked from the server. Yes, it would draw resources from other departments, but in all honesty both sides have made it clear that they don’t want to play with one another.

Xander.9024:

Maybe Anet can make a server just for them. That way they won’t have to deal with us at all.

Brilliant! Add a different economy (with its own TP and different prices between one and the other) and the inability to move between servers, and I would pay for that. Does anyone else feel like opening a Kickstarter?

Test.8734:

Xander.9024:

Maybe Anet can make a server just for them. That way they won’t have to deal with us at all.

Brilliant! Add a different economy (with its own TP and different prices between one and the other) and the inability to move between servers, and I would pay for that. Does anyone else feel like opening a Kickstarter?

Calling it now – 200k superior sigils for energy.

To OP: nope, check boxes are just another way to grieve your fellow man, no thanks.

Completely NOT in favor of letting the “meta zerkers” drones judge you with their REALLY poor taste in skills and builds.

Harper.4173:

Basaltface.2786:

seriosly… why we just dont make a system that gives people auto zerk and meta builds once they enter a dungeon and no way to change it… thats what you people ask for anyways.

We just want a system that lets us play with people we want to play with and keeps all the other people away.

then dont pug….

Harper.4173:

Basaltface.2786:

seriosly… why we just dont make a system that gives people auto zerk and meta builds once they enter a dungeon and no way to change it… thats what you people ask for anyways.

We just want a system that lets us play with people we want to play with and keeps all the other people away.

That system is called making friends. Make friends that do the things you want to do at about the same times as you, with about the same frequency.

That’s the only way you’re really going to get to play with the people you want and keep all others away.

Lel Cuddy so wrong. Calling everyone lazy when he just wants to be carried by people better than him.

The kind of people who would harass you for not having your gear open to inspection are the kind of people who already harass people now for not pinging a full set of ascended zerker gear at the start of a run. Not to mention that those are also the kind of people who would rage leave a group if you kill a boss 3 seconds slower than the “meta”, so its better to find out who those people are at the start of a run so you can block them and find a new group instead of finding out halfway through.

If people think pugging in this game is some magically egalitarian place where no one is ever kicked from groups and there are no kittens demanding everyone play a certain way, and that adding an inspect feature would suddenly ruin that, then you people havent really played this game much.

Saying people who wear zerk can dodge… well… It also says they cannot play well cause If they need to dodge the party is doing things wrong, dodging is loss of DPS. Why wasn’t target reflected? blinded? wasn’t aegis used?

I had a very nice full path a short while ago in AC, with some Pugs and i was on my staff ele,100% glass with scholar. I lost the bonus once at kohler all other moments of the path I was perfectly shielded party comp: warrior, thief, guard, ele scepter, ele staff. I had 43 minutes on my food before start, I had 5 when all paths were done. 38 minutes for AC 1 till 3…. Bosses under 5 seconds with full bomb. except for spiders and kohler. Good stacks, good use of food, and buffs…

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Saying people who wear zerk can dodge… well… It also says they cannot play well cause If they need to dodge the party is doing things wrong, dodging is loss of DPS. Why wasn’t target reflected? blinded? wasn’t aegis used?

I had a very nice full path a short while ago in AC, with some Pugs and i was on my staff ele,100% glass with scholar. I lost the bonus once at kohler all other moments of the path I was perfectly shielded party comp: warrior, thief, guard, ele scepter, ele staff. I had 43 minutes on my food before start, I had 5 when all paths were done. 38 minutes for AC 1 till 3…. Bosses under 5 seconds with full bomb. except for spiders and kohler. Good stacks, good use of food, and buffs…

That is definitely an ideal situation, but keep in mind, pugs may not always do what is necessary to protect the party. In that situation a zerker has to dodge attacks. Its definitely not ideal but then again most things people do in pugs aren’t ideal anyways. That is why the meta for pugs vs speedrun guild is vastly different in terms of strategies.

Altair.8402:

Why not have a “inspect gear” checkbox?

“allow gearcheck or gtfo” Is a likely result.

Dave.2536:

MrWubzy.3587:

Isn’t this game more about player skill than gear, though? If I can fight a boss using Knight’s gear just as easily as a guy running Zerker, doesn’t that say a lot about skill instead of gear? Granted stats do matter in the case of this game, but at its core it’s more about how well you do than what you’re wearing.

A player having zerker gear makes him more likely to know how to do things like dodge, stack might, execute a proper rotation, bring utilities to support the party, and not put troll light fields over the ele’s fire fields. A player not having zerker gear makes it less likely he knows (or cares) about that list of things.

.

A very very erronous assumption from my observation….the majority of zerker i find believe in the myth of all you need and are far from adequate.

if a leader, or group of people are so worried about shaving an extra minute off the time it takes to complete a dungeon and stress over making everyone use what they are using…they have serious issues.

like cuddy said, many of us work 8-10-16 hours a day, have a family, a budget, bills etc. we don’t give a rats kitten about your “meta” i have one meta character, and ya know what…i don’t enjoy playing it very often.
me and a couple of my friends run together using builds/gear we want..its actually wayyyy easier when not every member of the group has to play the content as if they are solo.

poisonality.8972:

if a leader, or group of people are so worried about shaving an extra minute off the time it takes to complete a dungeon and stress over making everyone use what they are using…they have serious issues.

like cuddy said, many of us work 8-10-16 hours a day, have a family, a budget, bills etc. we don’t give a rats kitten about your “meta” i have one meta character, and ya know what…i don’t enjoy playing it very often.
me and a couple of my friends run together using builds/gear we want..its actually wayyyy easier when not every member of the group has to play the content as if they are solo.

Not really, thats how they CHOOSE to play, you dont have to like it or even agree with it. And you for sure do not have to join their groups. But it is their CHOICE to do so. Its not right, its not wrong, but its how they play, and it should be respected as such.

And thats extremely rude, so what you work. So does my dad, so do i, so does my mother.My brother has 8 hours of school and 4 hours of homework each night. None of that matters in game!

It gives you no right to join groups who put “LF zerkers” and troll them.(Not aimed at you, aimed at other people who think like this, but join these groups just to be carried, or to troll them) Least you have friends you can run it together with thats for sure! makes it way easier to just relax! Personally i wont ever join a zerker group, why? its not because i dont run zerker, i do. i dont like the stress it brings trying to do speed runs!

TO THE OTHER POSTERS. Enough with the personal attacks on both sides, its immature, selfish and rude. Nothing gets Discussed that way, and its why threads get locked. Which hopefully is the way this thread is going to go too.

and that’s why i worded it that way. the entire thread is a cluster. maybe i can give it that last straw kinda thing.

the ones i meant have the problems are the crazy ones that will sit in a game, rather than play it and cuss you because you dared try to join in on the fun be it a dungeon/zerg/whatever and it cost them a whole 30 copper extra that night because it took 8 seconds longer than they wanted

I have to keep repeating, the whole point is moot. Anet isn’t going to give players tools explicitly designed to enforce their playstyle on others.

There’s a few reasons I’d argue that they won’t do that.

First, as mentioned above, it’s a non-zero effort for them for a very small gain from anets. It shows no sign of increasing engagement for casuals or for increasing spending for hardcore. As a QOL improvement it’s a mixed bag at the very best, many people really hate the idea.

Second, culturally they clearly don’t want build enforcement. As much as people rage about the PHIW crowd (and label/dehumanize the ‘enemy group’) it is a concept that Anet is pretty serious about enforcing. It’s why they’ve made all these encounters beatable with any collection of players, sufficiently skilled.

Third it’s likely much harder than people think. New UI aside, they probably send the bare minimum of player data to the other players in a group as a network optimization issue. Your client doesn’t actually need to know what my AR is or my toughness. I could be wrong with this one, because I know there are third party tools that people use to get estimates (although my impression is that it’s reading ui data and the combat log), but they’re going to send as little info as they can to keep server load down.

poisonality.8972:

and that’s why i worded it that way. the entire thread is a cluster. maybe i can give it that last straw kinda thing.

the ones i meant have the problems are the crazy ones that will sit in a game, rather than play it and cuss you because you dared try to join in on the fun be it a dungeon/zerg/whatever and it cost them a whole 30 copper extra that night because it took 8 seconds longer than they wanted

Aww i get what you where going for now! These threads(On this topic) Always end up like clusters!

Never ran into those groups so i cant really say anything on them. But this one dungeon run i did…Oh my word…id put For Ascalon Catacombs “P1 80s, Teaching Path”(me and 2 other guildies, one who had done the path with me before, the other had never touched foot into a dungeon) Had another newer player join, and then for the fifth…a person with 22k AP joins and enters…. we wiped at spider of course, neither of the newer members had good equipment(not zerker, not whatever, im talking its stats period.) the 22k AP person instantly starts raging, kicks my guildmate from the party(assuming the other new person seconded) And up until the point where me and the guildie that was still in there with me kick him he rants on and on about how we are noobs, we suck, etc. The other new person had actually left the group shortly after he started ranting.

That could have all been avoided had the player READ the LFG tool, and if he did read the LFG tool then shame on him for joining and trolling a party, my party.

yeah its almost like as soon as people sit down at a keyboard they lose their freakin minds. we don’t need a gear check, we need balance. no gear set should be better than another if they are all exotic, even if you have 1 piece from several sets it should be viable and honestly it is(kind of), as long as you don’t pick your skills for a meta build without running the meta gear

im about as casual as it comes, same as my buddies..we have taken months from the game off at a time. we still seem to do decent enough, a little more work on the balance and the hard-cores could go at it with the same play-as-you-want style we do.

anyone here from the first days of EQ? god I miss the community from the early days of MMO’s

Honestly it’s hard to see why people have a problem with this idea
I assume that people who don’t like the all zerker meta don’t want to join all zerker groups in the first place, and so a gear inspect won’t affect them in the least
(also whenever I check lfg only 1 in 8 parties or so is zerker only so they certainly have where to go, and no one is imposing anything on them)

seeing how this thread is going i’d say that some people will just take any opportunity to try to spite and insult other players just because they have a different play style and want something to facilitate it

poisonality.8972:

anyone here from the first days of EQ? god I miss the community from the early days of MMO’s

I was playing the first days of UO. :p

KGS.9842:

Honestly it’s hard to see why people have a problem with this idea
I assume that people who don’t like the all zerker meta don’t want to join all zerker groups in the first place, and so a gear inspect won’t affect them in the least

They do join all zerker groups, lie about their gear, and get carried the entire way while bringing down the group’s dps and making things harder and longer for everyone. That’s why lots of people have an issue with this.

Cuddy.6247:

Lifestealer.4910:

Cuddy.6247:

Lifestealer.4910:

The thing is most zerk players (I can’t speak for all of them) do have their own guild and do form their own groups in the lfg. We play with like minded people. PHIW people (again i can’t speak for all of them) insist that we must play with them, and that they should be entitled to any group they want. Most lack the initiative to form their own groups, we “elitest jerks” form our own group all the time.

Then use that guild to form your group with all the expected criteria met. As I’ve said, the moment you PUG you forfeit your right to care about who joins your group, because it’s not like gear makes a competent player in the first place. Your inability to grasp such a basic level of understanding doesn’t magically rid you of accountability for the tools you use or the illogical reason behind your discrimination with those tools.

Actually the moment i form a group, i don’t forfeit anything. If a person does not fit my criteria i can always kick. LFG descriptions are used to clearly set up standards for the party, if you PHIW don’t like it, you can always go make your own group like i did. Don’t pollute our party with your nonsense.

Maybe its you that do not understand, you call it illogical but i say that is just your opinion in which most people don’t share.

Explain to me how it’s illogical, then. Use reasoning. It’s as basic as it gets:

Zerk != Skill

The inherent risk of inviting anyone with LFG doesn’t matter if they have Zerk gear or not, because Zerk gear doesn’t automatically equal contribution. You instead want the community to foot the bill of your grievous failure at being socially approachable. You have inherent risks with any PUG, you forfeit your rights to discriminate when you PUG but you maintain your right to leave/vote to kick. Your incompetence is not logical, in fact – it’s the exact opposite. I am not accountable for your ineptitude, so please don’t shovel on bullkitten like it’s my responsibility.

My only responsibility, as well as yours, is to accept the LFG tool as a pugging system to acquire players for specific content (not to play content a specific way). You’ve made LFG ads and had people join them who were likely to your standards, get out of your own head for a little while and befriend them. Boom, you just got another person who you can invite. People who use LFG on a regular basis, expecting particular results, are foolish, incompetent and deserving of their frustrations for being incapable of establishing a social network.

Who is saying that zerk equals skill ?

Character performance is comprised of three primary factors.

1) player skill
2) character build
3) character gear

Just because gear is not the only factor contributing to character performance does not mean that it does not contribute to a significant degree.

Add in that zerk, or glass cannon, is not only a gear set up but also a playstyle that can conflict very heavily with other gear/build set ups and playstyles, and it becomes perfectly reasonable that people choosing to play in this manner might want to stick to playing with others who prefer the same playstyle.

You speak of logic. You mention that this is a game wherein one should be seeking to have fun. where is the logic in joining a group whose playstyle doesnt match one’s own? Where is the fun in joining a group where one is not wanted?

If I want a casual, any build/class, dungeon run I either create a group advertised as such, or join an existing one. I dont speedrun. I dont join groups looking to have fun in a manner that is not fun for me. Anyone who does, or tries to, or comauns that others’ fun must conform to their definition is being illogical.

DarkSyze.8627:

Altair it is not bad idea; Square Enix and other mmo game have that feature. Difference with those other game gears with Guild Wars 2 gears is that, the other mmo game gear have effect on game play and effect on many situation… where Guild Wars 2 gear only have effect on 1 situation and on 1 game play— Zerk… including bunker class.

It is sad and true because Guild Wars 2 gear is all about zerk-fast kill, instant kill, instant burst, high dps, do everything fast. I do many research-there is really only 2 class in Guild Wars 2 that is fill in bunker/support role.

So if there were gear inspection in Guild Wars 2; would it really matter? No!
So if there were gear inspection in Guild Wars 2; would it really effect game and situation? No! except for 2 bunker/support class.
So if there were gear inspection in Guild Wars 2; would it make game challenge? No! and No!

Suggestion; only make gear inspection access to level 80 player

Make it a mastery

Lifestealer.4910:

Cuddy.6247:

Lifestealer.4910:

The thing is most zerk players (I can’t speak for all of them) do have their own guild and do form their own groups in the lfg. We play with like minded people. PHIW people (again i can’t speak for all of them) insist that we must play with them, and that they should be entitled to any group they want. Most lack the initiative to form their own groups, we “elitest jerks” form our own group all the time.

Then use that guild to form your group with all the expected criteria met. As I’ve said, the moment you PUG you forfeit your right to care about who joins your group, because it’s not like gear makes a competent player in the first place. Your inability to grasp such a basic level of understanding doesn’t magically rid you of accountability for the tools you use or the illogical reason behind your discrimination with those tools.

Actually the moment i form a group, i don’t forfeit anything. If a person does not fit my criteria i can always kick. LFG descriptions are used to clearly set up standards for the party, if you PHIW don’t like it, you can always go make your own group like i did. Don’t pollute our party with your nonsense.

Maybe its you that do not understand, you call it illogical but i say that is just your opinion in which most people don’t share.

Which is fine but more times than not what happens is the group I form get a couple of performance mentality players, even though the description says for all, who then commandeer the PUG by kicking me. So basically they are too lazy to start their own PUG and wait for players they want that they join open to all pugs and turn them into speedrun PUGs. That’s what frustrates PHIW players. We are the ones coming clean up front saying we are open to all or not a speed run but we are still kicked from our own PUGs by those who only want to do zerk speedruns.

Having an inspection tool isn’t going to stop these players, only changes to PUG ownership and/or kicking rules will. This isn’t about PHIW players invading zerk PUGs, it’s about zerk players invading PHIW PUGs and converting them by kicking the non zerk members, which would be trivial to do with an inspection tool.

KGS.9842:

Honestly it’s hard to see why people have a problem with this idea
I assume that people who don’t like the all zerker meta don’t want to join all zerker groups in the first place, and so a gear inspect won’t affect them in the least
(also whenever I check lfg only 1 in 8 parties or so is zerker only so they certainly have where to go, and no one is imposing anything on them)

seeing how this thread is going i’d say that some people will just take any opportunity to try to spite and insult other players just because they have a different play style and want something to facilitate it

This ties in with the posts aboe (bold mine)

It’s always the other guy, it’s never me!!!

~~~~

Coming from other games, there’s a lot of ‘being judged by your gear’ that goes on. It’s less meaningful in GW2 (except for people who decide to make it meaningful to exclude), but people are people, both in remembering past slights and in wanting to be exclusionary and ‘better’.

One side wants to inspect explicitly to judge and exclude others, and the other side naturally bristles at that concept. The second is especially a natural reaction, if a little irrational.

Back to the quote, you’re getting it exactly backwards. You are trying to limit others play, and arenanet isn’t giving your more tools to limit others play. Other people with gear you (arbirarily) don’t like isn’t limiting your personal play, unless your style is so limited that it just falls apart if your group isn’t perfect.

And there’s still the elephant in the room.

What’s arenanets gain from giving you this tool?

What are the costs?

How do they want people to act?

Windsagio.1340:

KGS.9842:

Honestly it’s hard to see why people have a problem with this idea
I assume that people who don’t like the all zerker meta don’t want to join all zerker groups in the first place, and so a gear inspect won’t affect them in the least
(also whenever I check lfg only 1 in 8 parties or so is zerker only so they certainly have where to go, and no one is imposing anything on them)

seeing how this thread is going i’d say that some people will just take any opportunity to try to spite and insult other players just because they have a different play style and want something to facilitate it

This ties in with the posts aboe (bold mine)

It’s always the other guy, it’s never me!!!

~~~~

Coming from other games, there’s a lot of ‘being judged by your gear’ that goes on. It’s less meaningful in GW2 (except for people who decide to make it meaningful to exclude), but people are people, both in remembering past slights and in wanting to be exclusionary and ‘better’.

One side wants to inspect explicitly to judge and exclude others, and the other side naturally bristles at that concept. The second is especially a natural reaction, if a little irrational.

Back to the quote, you’re getting it exactly backwards. You are trying to limit others play, and arenanet isn’t giving your more tools to limit others play. Other people with gear you (arbirarily) don’t like isn’t limiting your personal play, unless your style is so limited that it just falls apart if your group isn’t perfect.

I dont think that choosing to not play with someone is limiting their play. I suppose that if they define their personal playstyle as being able to play with people that dont want to play with them then they have chosen to limit their own play.

Edit to clarify: As previouly mentioned. I still oppose a gear inspect function.

Ashen.2907:

I dont think that choosing to not play with someone is limiting their play. I suppose that if they define their personal playstyle as being able to play with people that dont want to play with them then they have chosen to limit their own play.

Edit to clarify: As previouly mentioned. I still oppose a gear inspect function.

You’re in essence saying ‘if you aren’t set up the way I like you can’t play with me.’ and it’s certainly MUCH more controlling than joining a group that doesn’t want you (and can kick you)

Which is anyones right, but do you really think it’s an attitude Anet wants to encourage?

poisonality.8972:

if a leader, or group of people are so worried about shaving an extra minute off the time it takes to complete a dungeon and stress over making everyone use what they are using…they have serious issues.

like cuddy said, many of us work 8-10-16 hours a day, have a family, a budget, bills etc. we don’t give a rats kitten about your “meta” i have one meta character, and ya know what…i don’t enjoy playing it very often.
me and a couple of my friends run together using builds/gear we want..its actually wayyyy easier when not every member of the group has to play the content as if they are solo.

If you’re worried about meta, then go find a group that doesn’t care about meta.

After all, there are ‘many’ of you guys.

Windsagio.1340:

Ashen.2907:

I dont think that choosing to not play with someone is limiting their play. I suppose that if they define their personal playstyle as being able to play with people that dont want to play with them then they have chosen to limit their own play.

Edit to clarify: As previouly mentioned. I still oppose a gear inspect function.

You’re in essence saying ‘if you aren’t set up the way I like you can’t play with me.’ and it’s certainly MUCH more controlling than joining a group that doesn’t want you (and can kick you)

Which is anyones right, but do you really think it’s an attitude Anet wants to encourage?

They want to cater to the lowest common denominator, to the entitled, to the lazy, to the ones who want to be carried, who feel they are owed the labor of others, who hate anyone who wants to be faster or stronger or more knowledgeable.

It’s a far worse attitude.

continues beating drum

The extreme nastiness of this discussion is further evidence that Anet won’t touch this with a million foot pole. If even talking about it turns us all into raving hate monsters, can you remember the rage if it were implemented?

Edit@Nevets

“Carried” isn’t right. They’re entirely capable of completing the content and contributing. Neither is the ‘lowest common denominator’ really, it’s just different interests and different styles. Judging everyone by your personal tastes and treating your personal tastes as law of gameplay is exactly the problem.

Windsagio.1340:

Ashen.2907:

I dont think that choosing to not play with someone is limiting their play. I suppose that if they define their personal playstyle as being able to play with people that dont want to play with them then they have chosen to limit their own play.

Edit to clarify: As previouly mentioned. I still oppose a gear inspect function.

You’re in essence saying ‘if you aren’t set up the way I like you can’t play with me.’ and it’s certainly MUCH more controlling than joining a group that doesn’t want you (and can kick you)

Which is anyones right, but do you really think it’s an attitude Anet wants to encourage?

Point of clarification: I only play in “open to all,” or no requirement listed groups.

What I am saying doesnt match what you claim. What I am essentially saying is, “if what you find fun and what I find fun are different then maybe we wont have fun playing together and should each go have fun with people who share our respective definitions of fun.”

I think it is not only perfectly reasonable but actually ideal for people to choose to play with others who have the same or similar definition of fun. It is not controlling at all to choose to play with people who are going to have fun the way I do. It is completely unreasonable, IMO, to insist that four other people have to forgo having fun in order for me to enjoy myself.