Guild Wars 2

Windsagio.1340:

Edit@Nevets

“Carried” isn’t right. They’re entirely capable of completing the content and contributing. Neither is the ‘lowest common denominator’ really, it’s just different interests and different styles. Judging everyone by your personal tastes and treating your personal tastes as law of gameplay is exactly the problem.

Carried is right. If they’re entirely capable of completing the content and contributing on their own, they should have no issues if the zerker only or clerics only or PVT only or necro only groups want to exclude them via a gear check option. Everyone should be given tools to play with people of similar interests. Anyone opposing tools to enable this type of gameplay simply wants to leech off others. End of story.

Ashen.2907:

Windsagio.1340:

Ashen.2907:

I dont think that choosing to not play with someone is limiting their play. I suppose that if they define their personal playstyle as being able to play with people that dont want to play with them then they have chosen to limit their own play.

Edit to clarify: As previouly mentioned. I still oppose a gear inspect function.

You’re in essence saying ‘if you aren’t set up the way I like you can’t play with me.’ and it’s certainly MUCH more controlling than joining a group that doesn’t want you (and can kick you)

Which is anyones right, but do you really think it’s an attitude Anet wants to encourage?

Point of clarification: I only play in “open to all,” or no requirement listed groups.

I think it is not only perfectly reasonable but actually ideal for people to choose to play with others who have the same or similar definition of fun. It is not controlling at all to choose to play with people who are going to have fun the way I do. It is completely unreasonable, IMO, to insist that four other people have to forgo having fun in order for me to enjoy myself.

They can do that now. It’s not in anets interests to encourage exclusion.

I think that’s the other piece of it actually, they have a very clear policy of being gear and build neutral. It hasn’t worked out in the wild, but that’s pretty clearly the goal.

As a statement of intent, gear inspections would be entirely undermining that goal and philosophy… and every feature implementation is a statement of intent. Gear inspection goes against their core philosophy. They don’t limit people trying to filter their groups in other ways both for the reasons you’re stating and because it would be utterly unenforcable, but making a tool to make it easier is an entirely different beast.

~~~

Anet lets people play how they like, even if it’s in the form of excluding others. They’re not going to legitimize it with a tool, just like they don’t legitimize run-selling by protecting sellers or legitimize DPS tracking by putting in an in-game DPS meter.

What are the big elements of how group content plays out?

1. Professions – this information is readily available. You can’t hide your profession from your group.
2. Skills and knowledge of content – skill animations and your own ability will be readily available to your group. You can’t hide what skills you’re using and you can’t hide how knowledgeable you are about a given piece of content.
3. Gear and traits – you CAN hide or lie about what gear and what traits you’re using. A very knowledgeable individual will be able to tell the difference between gear setups, but it’s not as readily apparent as the other two factors which influence gameplay. Why not?

If people are OK with showing the group which profession they’re playing, which skills they’re using, how well they know the content, why is is that much more of a big deal if the group knows what gear and traits you’re running? The only legitimate reason I can see for people to not want others to be able to see is because they fear they might be excluded from some groups which they weren’t supposed to be a part of anyway.

Windsagio.1340:

continues beating drum

The extreme nastiness of this discussion is further evidence that Anet won’t touch this with a million foot pole. If even talking about it turns us all into raving hate monsters, can you remember the rage if it were implemented?

Edit@Nevets

“Carried” isn’t right. They’re entirely capable of completing the content and contributing. Neither is the ‘lowest common denominator’ really, it’s just different interests and different styles. Judging everyone by your personal tastes and treating your personal tastes as law of gameplay is exactly the problem.

The aggro system makes the highest damage dealer a larger potential target than somebody who has tankier stats

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

Unless that individual without zerker been dodging the enemy or spamming damage negation ability. I will say that person has been carried

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Windsagio.1340:

Edit@Nevets

“Carried” isn’t right. They’re entirely capable of completing the content and contributing. Neither is the ‘lowest common denominator’ really, it’s just different interests and different styles. Judging everyone by your personal tastes and treating your personal tastes as law of gameplay is exactly the problem.

Carried is right. If they’re entirely capable of completing the content and contributing on their own, they should have no issues if the zerker only or clerics only or PVT only or necro only groups want to exclude them via a gear check option. Everyone should be given tools to play with people of similar interests. Anyone opposing tools to enable this type of gameplay simply wants to leech off others. End of story.

I disagree completely.

I have never joined a zerker only, speed clear, etc group. I form my own group or look for existing groups that match my preferences. I think that non zerkers joining groups advertised as zerk only are in the wrong.

I oppose a gear check system and yet have zero desire to leech off of others. This sort of generalization is ridiculous.

Ashen.2907:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Windsagio.1340:

Edit@Nevets

“Carried” isn’t right. They’re entirely capable of completing the content and contributing. Neither is the ‘lowest common denominator’ really, it’s just different interests and different styles. Judging everyone by your personal tastes and treating your personal tastes as law of gameplay is exactly the problem.

Carried is right. If they’re entirely capable of completing the content and contributing on their own, they should have no issues if the zerker only or clerics only or PVT only or necro only groups want to exclude them via a gear check option. Everyone should be given tools to play with people of similar interests. Anyone opposing tools to enable this type of gameplay simply wants to leech off others. End of story.

I disagree completely.

I have never joined a zerker only, speed clear, etc group. I form my own group or look for existing groups that match my preferences. I think that non zerkers joining groups advertised as zerk only are in the wrong.

I oppose a gear check system and yet have zero desire to leech off of others. This sort of generalization is ridiculous.

Then please vocalize your legitimate opposition to allowing all people to group with others of similar interests.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Then please vocalize your legitimate opposition to allowing all people to group with others of similar interests.

They can do that already. There’s no need for additional tools.

Windsagio.1340:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Then please vocalize your legitimate opposition to allowing all people to group with others of similar interests.

They can do that already. There’s no need for additional tools.

As I noted above, they cannot do that already. They TRY to do that already, but then it’s very easy for people to lie about gear and traits. In fact, some people on these very forums are open about how they join groups, ping zerker gear and then don’t wear it. It becomes very difficult to pin down who is being a leech and who is lying.

Edit: Unless of course they run with people in guild groups who they are friendly with or know in real life. If your argument is that people shouldn’t be able to group with RANDOMS of similar interest, then the LFG tool should be changed to a random group generator.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Ashen.2907:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Windsagio.1340:

Edit@Nevets

“Carried” isn’t right. They’re entirely capable of completing the content and contributing. Neither is the ‘lowest common denominator’ really, it’s just different interests and different styles. Judging everyone by your personal tastes and treating your personal tastes as law of gameplay is exactly the problem.

Carried is right. If they’re entirely capable of completing the content and contributing on their own, they should have no issues if the zerker only or clerics only or PVT only or necro only groups want to exclude them via a gear check option. Everyone should be given tools to play with people of similar interests. Anyone opposing tools to enable this type of gameplay simply wants to leech off others. End of story.

I disagree completely.

I have never joined a zerker only, speed clear, etc group. I form my own group or look for existing groups that match my preferences. I think that non zerkers joining groups advertised as zerk only are in the wrong.

I oppose a gear check system and yet have zero desire to leech off of others. This sort of generalization is ridiculous.

Then please vocalize your legitimate opposition to allowing all people to group with others of similar interests.

Nice strawman.

I do not have any opposition to players having the option to group with others of similar playstyle/interest.

You have even quoted and responded to my posts in which I state that I support players having this option. I assumed that you read and understood the posts to which you were responding. Apparently I was mistaken.

You might want to go back and reread my posts over the last page or two before making inaccurate posts about my opinion on the matter. If you need help understanding please feel free to PM me.

Now, and again feel free to ask for help if you are having trouble understanding what is being said here as I am more than happy to help, disliking a specific proposed solution to a concern does not equate to dismissing the concern itself.

loseridoit.2756:

Windsagio.1340:

continues beating drum

The extreme nastiness of this discussion is further evidence that Anet won’t touch this with a million foot pole. If even talking about it turns us all into raving hate monsters, can you remember the rage if it were implemented?

Edit@Nevets

“Carried” isn’t right. They’re entirely capable of completing the content and contributing. Neither is the ‘lowest common denominator’ really, it’s just different interests and different styles. Judging everyone by your personal tastes and treating your personal tastes as law of gameplay is exactly the problem.

The aggro system makes the highest damage dealer a larger potential target than somebody who has tankier stats

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

Unless that individual without zerker been dodging the enemy or spamming damage negation ability. I will say that person has been carried

That is only correct for some enemies. Others do the reverse.

Windsagio.1340:

Ashen.2907:

Windsagio.1340:

Ashen.2907:

I dont think that choosing to not play with someone is limiting their play. I suppose that if they define their personal playstyle as being able to play with people that dont want to play with them then they have chosen to limit their own play.

Edit to clarify: As previouly mentioned. I still oppose a gear inspect function.

You’re in essence saying ‘if you aren’t set up the way I like you can’t play with me.’ and it’s certainly MUCH more controlling than joining a group that doesn’t want you (and can kick you)

Which is anyones right, but do you really think it’s an attitude Anet wants to encourage?

Point of clarification: I only play in “open to all,” or no requirement listed groups.

I think it is not only perfectly reasonable but actually ideal for people to choose to play with others who have the same or similar definition of fun. It is not controlling at all to choose to play with people who are going to have fun the way I do. It is completely unreasonable, IMO, to insist that four other people have to forgo having fun in order for me to enjoy myself.

They can do that now. It’s not in anets interests to encourage exclusion.

I think that’s the other piece of it actually, they have a very clear policy of being gear and build neutral. It hasn’t worked out in the wild, but that’s pretty clearly the goal.

As a statement of intent, gear inspections would be entirely undermining that goal and philosophy… and every feature implementation is a statement of intent. Gear inspection goes against their core philosophy. They don’t limit people trying to filter their groups in other ways both for the reasons you’re stating and because it would be utterly unenforcable, but making a tool to make it easier is an entirely different beast.

~~~

Anet lets people play how they like, even if it’s in the form of excluding others. They’re not going to legitimize it with a tool, just like they don’t legitimize run-selling by protecting sellers or legitimize DPS tracking by putting in an in-game DPS meter.

I have specifically and emphatically stated that I oppose the addition of a gear inspect feature.

Khisanth.2948:

loseridoit.2756:

Windsagio.1340:

continues beating drum

The extreme nastiness of this discussion is further evidence that Anet won’t touch this with a million foot pole. If even talking about it turns us all into raving hate monsters, can you remember the rage if it were implemented?

Edit@Nevets

“Carried” isn’t right. They’re entirely capable of completing the content and contributing. Neither is the ‘lowest common denominator’ really, it’s just different interests and different styles. Judging everyone by your personal tastes and treating your personal tastes as law of gameplay is exactly the problem.

The aggro system makes the highest damage dealer a larger potential target than somebody who has tankier stats

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro

Unless that individual without zerker been dodging the enemy or spamming damage negation ability. I will say that person has been carried

That is only correct for some enemies. Others do the reverse.

which enemies?

The only other aggro that I know is farest guy. Molten duo, Mai trin, etc.

Gear-inspector, huh?
How about we add that feature and it becomes a ban-reason to try to kick or flame at people in groups that were not labeled “zerker only”, because they haven’t full zerker builds?

Seriously, all this zerker-meta-crap is going on my nerves. I play zerker, I also enjoy a supportive celestial build from time to time.
I get really annoyed if a player joins a group, demands that everyone is zerker, then shuts up once he reads that everyone is, just to be the first and most frequent to be downed because he doesn’t know kitten how to play the game.

Ashen.2907:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Ashen.2907:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Windsagio.1340:

Edit@Nevets

“Carried” isn’t right. They’re entirely capable of completing the content and contributing. Neither is the ‘lowest common denominator’ really, it’s just different interests and different styles. Judging everyone by your personal tastes and treating your personal tastes as law of gameplay is exactly the problem.

Carried is right. If they’re entirely capable of completing the content and contributing on their own, they should have no issues if the zerker only or clerics only or PVT only or necro only groups want to exclude them via a gear check option. Everyone should be given tools to play with people of similar interests. Anyone opposing tools to enable this type of gameplay simply wants to leech off others. End of story.

I disagree completely.

I have never joined a zerker only, speed clear, etc group. I form my own group or look for existing groups that match my preferences. I think that non zerkers joining groups advertised as zerk only are in the wrong.

I oppose a gear check system and yet have zero desire to leech off of others. This sort of generalization is ridiculous.

Then please vocalize your legitimate opposition to allowing all people to group with others of similar interests.

Nice strawman.

I do not have any opposition to players having the option to group with others of similar playstyle/interest.

You have even quoted and responded to my posts in which I state that I support players having this option. I assumed that you read and understood the posts to which you were responding. Apparently I was mistaken.

You might want to go back and reread my posts over the last page or two before making inaccurate posts about my opinion on the matter. If you need help understanding please feel free to PM me.

Now, and again feel free to ask for help if you are having trouble understanding what is being said here as I am more than happy to help, disliking a specific proposed solution to a concern does not equate to dismissing the concern itself.

I went back and read every single post you wrote on this thread. You started with:

I dont really see an upside to this but plenty of downside. Gonna have to disagree OP.

And said nothing else more substantial since. You’ve provided no argument, you’ve just stated time and time again you’re against it.

So, let me ask again, in public, why are you against it?

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Ashen.2907:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Ashen.2907:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Windsagio.1340:

Edit@Nevets

“Carried” isn’t right. They’re entirely capable of completing the content and contributing. Neither is the ‘lowest common denominator’ really, it’s just different interests and different styles. Judging everyone by your personal tastes and treating your personal tastes as law of gameplay is exactly the problem.

Carried is right. If they’re entirely capable of completing the content and contributing on their own, they should have no issues if the zerker only or clerics only or PVT only or necro only groups want to exclude them via a gear check option. Everyone should be given tools to play with people of similar interests. Anyone opposing tools to enable this type of gameplay simply wants to leech off others. End of story.

I disagree completely.

I have never joined a zerker only, speed clear, etc group. I form my own group or look for existing groups that match my preferences. I think that non zerkers joining groups advertised as zerk only are in the wrong.

I oppose a gear check system and yet have zero desire to leech off of others. This sort of generalization is ridiculous.

Then please vocalize your legitimate opposition to allowing all people to group with others of similar interests.

Nice strawman.

I do not have any opposition to players having the option to group with others of similar playstyle/interest.

You have even quoted and responded to my posts in which I state that I support players having this option. I assumed that you read and understood the posts to which you were responding. Apparently I was mistaken.

You might want to go back and reread my posts over the last page or two before making inaccurate posts about my opinion on the matter. If you need help understanding please feel free to PM me.

Now, and again feel free to ask for help if you are having trouble understanding what is being said here as I am more than happy to help, disliking a specific proposed solution to a concern does not equate to dismissing the concern itself.

I went back and read every single post you wrote on this thread. You started with:

I dont really see an upside to this but plenty of downside. Gonna have to disagree OP.

And said nothing else more substantial since. You’ve provided no argument, you’ve just stated time and time again you’re against it.

So, let me ask again, in public, why are you against it?

This is a very different question than what you asked in your previous post so you are not asking anything again. This is the first time youve asked the question (of me). I do thank you for stepping back from the previous dishonest (or perhaps merely based in a failure to read or understand what had been posted in the past) assertions.

I oppose a gear check system for a number of reasons:

1) it would cost dev resources to imement that I feel could be better spent elsewhere.
2) it would be primarily of use in dungeons which seem to have been back burnered by Anet. If the game mode is not seeing significant growth or development then the tool itself seems of questionable value.
3) it seems likely to create the impression that gear inspection of others is the expected norm leading those who might not bave been otherwise so inclined to join the phenomenon because they are led to believe by Anet’s inclusion of the mechanic that they are supposed to use it.
4) it is redundant. It would not add significant utility over gear pinging. Nothing would keep the guy who is already fake pinging a secondary gear set to sleaze his way into a zerker group from wearing zerker and switching to a different set after the round of inspections. A berzerker player with good situational awareness should already be able to tell that the guy in the group who didnt dodge the big hit didnt take enough damage, that bosses arent dying fast enough, and so on.

It doesnt really add anything of significance while carrying opportunity costs that outweight its benefits.

tekfan.3179:

Gear-inspector, huh?
How about we add that feature and it becomes a ban-reason to try to kick or flame at people in groups that were not labeled “zerker only”, because they haven’t full zerker builds?

Seriously, all this zerker-meta-crap is going on my nerves. I play zerker, I also enjoy a supportive celestial build from time to time.
I get really annoyed if a player joins a group, demands that everyone is zerker, then shuts up once he reads that everyone is, just to be the first and most frequent to be downed because he doesn’t know kitten how to play the game.

See this makes sense. This is basically the first person who made sense to me, ever, complaining about “zerk only” groups. Thank you for posting this. +1.

I’m not being sarcastic- up until this point I’ve only ever seen people yelling and screaming about seeing groups on LFG that are “zerk only” or “x+ AP”. I’ve never understood that- it seem utterly bizarre to me that people have been complaining about gear-centric or top-tier dps groups that they don’t have to join.

But if players are getting into a group that wasn’t intended for that purpose and then being jerks about other people’s gear, that’s a totally different problem. And it’s a problem that clearly should be resolved.

Maybe all these new filters and gear check mechanisms are solving the wrong problem… The real problem might be that groups don’t have real leaders.

Seems like a simple fix to me: only the party leader, the first person in the group, should be able to kick, and the party leader shouldn’t need a second vote to kick. Naturally it should also be possible for the leader to voluntarily select a new leader, and perhaps it would also make sense to allow all four other members to kick the leader if they all agree- but probably not. They could just leave make a new group, after all.

Solved. Then you could create a group using the LFG tool of whatever kind you need, and as the leader you can then police it. Any group you joined based on the leader’s description is likely to stay pretty much what you expect and want it to be, because the leader is in control. Naturally no PuG will be perfect and there won’t be zero drama, but it’d be a heck of a lot less likely and easier to resolve.

End up with a bad leader that acts like a jerk? Add them to your do-not-party list (which should also exist as something other than nicknames on your friend list, separate issue), and don’t join one of their groups again. Since they’re in control, you know the tone they’ll set immediately.

Altair.8402:

Dante.1763:

They will get harassed. if they join a party whos leader has it turned on, and they dont. guess what, the harassment starts. If 1 person is advertising for a run and a party of 2 or 3 join and demand a gear check and if that person doesnt want to, Toddles.

Having this solves nothing and does nothing for the game.

No thank you. Pinging gear is quick enough already. Takes barely any time to shift click all the gear in your inventory. would it be a little faster? maybe.But its not needed.

That’s not all that different from the way things are right now. You have your zerks only ping gear or kick groups, and you have your all are welcome groups. People who don’t like one type will join the other type. Having this feature won’t do anything to affect that.

Windsagio.1340:

It’s more complex than that though, they’d have to build an entire ‘inspect’ ui for looking at other players.

I can’t imagine it’ll be too hard to implement… they already have something similar for previewing dyes and armor.

There is (was?) an inspect feature for spectating pvp games already. Havent spectated PvP games in a long time so it might have changed with the pvp rework.

Ashen.2907:

This is a very different question than what you asked in your previous post so you are not asking anything again. This is the first time youve asked the question (of me). I do thank you for stepping back from the previous dishonest (or perhaps merely based in a failure to read or understand what had been posted in the past) assertions.

I oppose a gear check system for a number of reasons:

1) it would cost dev resources to imement that I feel could be better spent elsewhere.
2) it would be primarily of use in dungeons which seem to have been back burnered by Anet. If the game mode is not seeing significant growth or development then the tool itself seems of questionable value.
3) it seems likely to create the impression that gear inspection of others is the expected norm leading those who might not bave been otherwise so inclined to join the phenomenon because they are led to believe by Anet’s inclusion of the mechanic that they are supposed to use it.
4) it is redundant. It would not add significant utility over gear pinging. Nothing would keep the guy who is already fake pinging a secondary gear set to sleaze his way into a zerker group from wearing zerker and switching to a different set after the round of inspections. A berzerker player with good situational awareness should already be able to tell that the guy in the group who didnt dodge the big hit didnt take enough damage, that bosses arent dying fast enough, and so on.

It doesnt really add anything of significance while carrying opportunity costs that outweight its benefits.

No, I asked the same question both times, you just don’t realize it. This tool would enable people to play with others with the same interests. Your opposition to the tool is de facto an opposition to more control of allowing people to “GHIW.”

Yes, I’m coining a new term people. GHIW stands for “Group How I Want.” I think in a MMORPG the individual should be empowered to find solidarity with his peers! Whether that individual is Zerker or Nomad’s, Knight’s or Cleric’s, Elementalist or Necromancer, he should be able to seek out like minded individuals to play with!

Let’s make GHIW a reality! Hoo-rah!!!

1. I concede it would take up developer resources. I don’t concede they’d be better spent elsewhere.
2. Dungeons, fractals, new raids, PvP, WvW, basically anything BUT open world could use this tool. In essence, any content that requires a brain!
3. This is a bad argument friend! People form anything goes groups all the time! They’d still be able to after this is in place, and if it was designed as the OP stated, as an OPTIONAL check box, no new norms would be created!
4. Sigh, I’ve argued this again and again! People lie! They lie all the time! And it’s really hard to tell who is lying in a full group of 5! If the checkbox allowed you to right click on people at will, nobody would be able to continue to lie! It adds a HUGE functionality over the current tool, because it prevents lying cheaters and allows GHIW functionality!

GHIW people! Let’s make it happen.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

No, I asked the same question both times, you just don’t realize it. This tool would enable people to play with others with the same interests. Your opposition to the tool is de facto an opposition to more control of allowing people to “GHIW.”

You didnt ask about opposition to more control. You asked about, “opposition to allowing all people to group with others of similar interests.” There is a difference between a goal and one possible tool that might contribute to achieving said goal. As an example I have, in every single instance since launch, only ever grouped with people of similar interests…and yet a gear inspect function does not exist. If the two were synonymous such would not be possible. I also support the long term goal of reduced reliance on foreign sources of fossil fuels…and yet I oppose returning to a pre-industrial lifestyle. A goal and a tool are not the same thing.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

1. I concede it would take up developer resources. I don’t concede they’d be better spent elsewhere.

2. Dungeons, fractals, new raids, PvP, WvW, basically anything BUT open world could use this tool. In essence, any content that requires a brain!

3. This is a bad argument friend! People form anything goes groups all the time! They’d still be able to after this is in place, and if it was designed as the OP stated, as an OPTIONAL check box, no new norms would be created!

4. Sigh, I’ve argued this again and again! People lie! They lie all the time! And it’s really hard to tell who is lying in a full group of 5! If the checkbox allowed you to right click on people at will, nobody would be able to continue to lie! It adds a HUGE functionality over the current tool, because it prevents lying cheaters and allows GHIW functionality!

1) You are of course entitled to your opinion about whether or not resources in question should be spent elsewhere. You asked for my opinion, and I gave it.

2) I see it for dungeons. If Fractals is not considered part of the dungeon experience then that brings us to two. I don’t think that it is particularly valid to argue that raids, which do not exist in GW2, count as a place where it would be useful. PvP ? Are speaking of premade groups ? or random hotjoin ? I will be honest here, I think that anyone choosing to PUG when facing premade/guild/etc groups should expect the worst and dont think that a gear inspect would make any difference at all. Gear inspect for the equivalent of random arenas seems ludicrous to me. Gear inspect for membership in a WvW zerg seems like an odd idea and havoc groups (my preferred playstyle in WvW) seem unlikely to gain much (if any) benefit either. I suppose solo roamers could inspect themselves.

3) Give people a tool and they will use it even if the dont need to. This is particularly the case if the tool carries some patina of official utility.

4) Yup people lie. I commented to that effect. It would not prevent lying or cheating. It would provide another option for catching them in their lies and cheating. Its already possible to do so, this would be a somewhat redundant addition. I say somewhat because it might make it easier for unobservant zerkers to catch the liars by spending a moment to do an inspect. The good zerkers, of course can already tell without taking that time.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Windsagio.1340:

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Then please vocalize your legitimate opposition to allowing all people to group with others of similar interests.

They can do that already. There’s no need for additional tools.

As I noted above, they cannot do that already. They TRY to do that already, but then it’s very easy for people to lie about gear and traits. In fact, some people on these very forums are open about how they join groups, ping zerker gear and then don’t wear it. It becomes very difficult to pin down who is being a leech and who is lying.

Edit: Unless of course they run with people in guild groups who they are friendly with or know in real life. If your argument is that people shouldn’t be able to group with RANDOMS of similar interest, then the LFG tool should be changed to a random group generator.

You’re just wrong, Steven.

First you have the ability to request ‘zerker’ or ‘meta’ or ‘heavies only’ as you wish. It’s possible people will ignore your wishes, but you have the ability.

Now, lets say they ignore your LFG message. There are really 2 possibilities.

1) You don’t notice, no harm no foul.
2) You do notice, and if even 1 other person agrees with you, you kick them.

Honestly though, I think you’re making this problem for yourself by being so militant about it. Don’t go borrowing excuses to be outraged.

~~

As to my personal position, I think it’s a dumb request (to be frank), but I’m more interested on trying to get people to try to look at it from a developers point of view rather than a “I want it! MEME!” point of view.

Everyone knows you want it, and everyone knows why you want it. The question we have to ask is, why would arenanet want it enough to justify the development costs and server load?

Ashen.2907:

You didnt ask about opposition to more control. You asked about, “opposition to allowing all people to group with others of similar interests.” There is a difference between a goal and one possible tool that might contribute to achieving said goal. As an example I have, in every single instance since launch, only ever grouped with people of similar interests…and yet a gear inspect function does not exist. If the two were synonymous such would not be possible. I also support the long term goal of reduced reliance on foreign sources of fossil fuels…and yet I oppose returning to a pre-industrial lifestyle. A goal and a tool are not the same thing.

1) You are of course entitled to your opinion about whether or not resources in question should be spent elsewhere. You asked for my opinion, and I gave it.

2) I see it for dungeons. If Fractals is not considered part of the dungeon experience then that brings us to two. I don’t think that it is particularly valid to argue that raids, which do not exist in GW2, count as a place where it would be useful. PvP ? Are speaking of premade groups ? or random hotjoin ? I will be honest here, I think that anyone choosing to PUG when facing premade/guild/etc groups should expect the worst and dont think that a gear inspect would make any difference at all. Gear inspect for the equivalent of random arenas seems ludicrous to me. Gear inspect for membership in a WvW zerg seems like an odd idea and havoc groups (my preferred playstyle in WvW) seem unlikely to gain much (if any) benefit either. I suppose solo roamers could inspect themselves.

3) Give people a tool and they will use it even if the dont need to. This is particularly the case if the tool carries some patina of official utility.

4) Yup people lie. I commented to that effect. It would not prevent lying or cheating. It would provide another option for catching them in their lies and cheating. Its already possible to do so, this would be a somewhat redundant addition. I say somewhat because it might make it easier for unobservant zerkers to catch the liars by spending a moment to do an inspect. The good zerkers, of course can already tell without taking that time.

If you oppose a reasonable means by which a goal can be accomplished, and arguably the only reasonable means, you in fact oppose the goal, if only because you feel the goal is not worth the means. You may have played with groups of similar interest because you lacked definition and precision. A lack of care is not the same thing as care. Because you don’t care who you play with, or only care on the broad scale, you can’t say that you’ve played with people with more defined and specific interests.

1. I’m arguing that these add a legitimate functionality that would improve gameplay. If my arguments hold, it wouldn’t be a waste of resources. It would be adding value to the game.

2. Anet hired a raid designer, I’d be surprised if raids weren’t coming to the game. Anet already said with HoT there will be a fractals mastery track, and they’ve recently started fixing some fractal bugs. They may not have a dungeon team, but they are at this point making a minimal effort to at least shape up SOME of the dungeon content. In PvP you could use it to group with others with specific builds. You can already Rank check people if you want – and not many do – so why not gear/build check? It just makes sense! Same thing with WvW. Wanna form an elite hit squad with similar players? Wanna form that perfect 5 man team that you so meticulously theory crafted? Allow players to GHIW!!!

3. Some people will use it! Of course! But you don’t have to! There are lots of tools in this game that add functionality! Like how you can turn off aoe indicators! Or how you can adjust different graphics settings! Or how you can use auto target! Tools enhance functionality. They give people options! Don’t like it, don’t use it! If people want to use the tool, why shouldn’t they be able to? Other people wanna have fun too! Don’t monopolize fun!

4. The good zerkers can tell after a minute or two of looking, but even the best zerkers can’t tell the exact mix and match of gear someone might have. Sure, when I play Mai Trin on fractal 50 and we have a nomad warrior face tanking her, I can tell! And I’m glad he’s there! But most of the time it’s more subtle! A piece of PVT here or there, maybe not quite enough agony, maybe a mix and match of zerkers and rabid, who knows? This tool isn’t redundant. It fixes a problem and allows people to GHIW!

Why do you not want people to GHIW? Why you gotta be so mean?

Windsagio.1340:

You’re just wrong, Steven.

First you have the ability to request ‘zerker’ or ‘meta’ or ‘heavies only’ as you wish. It’s possible people will ignore your wishes, but you have the ability.

Now, lets say they ignore your LFG message. There are really 2 possibilities.

1) You don’t notice, no harm no foul.
2) You do notice, and if even 1 other person agrees with you, you kick them.

Honestly though, I think you’re making this problem for yourself by being so militant about it. Don’t go borrowing excuses to be outraged.

~~

As to my personal position, I think it’s a dumb request (to be frank), but I’m more interested on trying to get people to try to look at it from a developers point of view rather than a “I want it! MEME!” point of view.

Everyone knows you want it, and everyone knows why you want it. The question we have to ask is, why would arenanet want it enough to justify the development costs and server load?

Look pal,

I pug FOTM 50 a lot. Most of the time I don’t ask for Zerk. Occasionally I do. When people aren’t full zerk, you can tell. But you can’t tell which person is a mix and match, or if it’s multiple people etc etc. So you sigh and say, well, this is the cost of not having a GHIW tool and this is the cost of pugging.

Things don’t have to be this way! GHIW! Free groups! That’s Anet’s incentive! This is an MMORPG! Give people the tools to make it easier to either join up with those filthy Zerkers, or avoid them at all cost!

The ONLY thing this would do make it easier for people to prevent lying and cheating, and yes, take up some developer resources. Why is helping people stop the liars and the cheaters a bad goal? Why is allowing people more power to find like minded players a bad goal?

OK dudes, have to head out for the night. Fun arguing with all of you, if I remember to check back in later I’ll continue to try to get the last word. But if you all manage it, GGWP you too stronk for me.

Anger aside, you’re clouding an important difference. If people have a problem with ‘zerkers’, it’s not their build style, it’s the ‘play as I do or kitten off!’ element.

I’m like Ashen, I actively avoid ‘zerk only’ groups. For a number of reasons, actually.

At the same time I use zerker gear on a number of my characters, as I feel is appropriate.

I don’t want to avoid playing with anyone unless they’re putting off some serious danger signs (such as ‘zerk only’ lfg messages), which might be why the tool seems a silly waste to me.

The tool is only useful to people who want to exclude others based on their build. This is one small part of the player base, and a controversial part at that. Until you can get past this essential problem this feature is going to be an extremely hard sell.

Really, how much of a problem is players not equipping what they say they are Versus the problem of elite players kicking players from their own PUG because the elites weren’t interested in taking it slow as the LFG comment stated? Because I’ve been kicked from my own PUG frequently because the elite players joining really don’t want to take it slow, they were just to lazy to start their own PUG.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

If you oppose a reasonable means by which a goal can be accomplished, and arguably the only reasonable means, you in fact oppose the goal, if only because you feel the goal is not worth the means. You may have played with groups of similar interest because you lacked definition and precision. A lack of care is not the same thing as care. Because you don’t care who you play with, or only care on the broad scale, you can’t say that you’ve played with people with more defined and specific interests.

1. I’m arguing that these add a legitimate functionality that would improve gameplay. If my arguments hold, it wouldn’t be a waste of resources. It would be adding value to the game.

2. Anet hired a raid designer, I’d be surprised if raids weren’t coming to the game. Anet already said with HoT there will be a fractals mastery track, and they’ve recently started fixing some fractal bugs. They may not have a dungeon team, but they are at this point making a minimal effort to at least shape up SOME of the dungeon content. In PvP you could use it to group with others with specific builds. You can already Rank check people if you want – and not many do – so why not gear/build check? It just makes sense! Same thing with WvW. Wanna form an elite hit squad with similar players? Wanna form that perfect 5 man team that you so meticulously theory crafted? Allow players to GHIW!!!

3. Some people will use it! Of course! But you don’t have to! There are lots of tools in this game that add functionality! Like how you can turn off aoe indicators! Or how you can adjust different graphics settings! Or how you can use auto target! Tools enhance functionality. They give people options! Don’t like it, don’t use it! If people want to use the tool, why shouldn’t they be able to? Other people wanna have fun too! Don’t monopolize fun!

4. The good zerkers can tell after a minute or two of looking, but even the best zerkers can’t tell the exact mix and match of gear someone might have. Sure, when I play Mai Trin on fractal 50 and we have a nomad warrior face tanking her, I can tell! And I’m glad he’s there! But most of the time it’s more subtle! A piece of PVT here or there, maybe not quite enough agony, maybe a mix and match of zerkers and rabid, who knows? This tool isn’t redundant. It fixes a problem and allows people to GHIW!

Why do you not want people to GHIW? Why you gotta be so mean?

Its not a reasonable means of achieving the goal (see I can state opinion as fact too). It is also not the only means. If people can play with others of similar interest without it then it is by definition not the only means.

Feel free to speculate all you like about raids in GW2. As we do not know what form they will take it is not relevant to this discussion.

As to whether or not its a waste of resources…..adding a specific functionality or element of gampelay does not inherently add value to the game. Cost vs benefit comes into play. I am not saying that I know how that comparison would play out but the simple fact of the matter is that spending money on a given/specific option does not inherently add to the value of a product.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

I do not care for pings. I have so many builds and gear to choose from…

I run speedrun zerk meta on some chars. And I will join
l80 Zerk Meta (Speedrun / EXP /xk AP/ Ping Gear) but I prefer not to ping,

I run zerk non meta on some.
l80 Zerk (Speedrun / EXP /xk AP/ Ping Gear) but I prefer not to ping,

I run non-zerk meta on some.
((Partial) zealots/valkyrie(/soldiers/clerics/cavalier/knights) armor)
I run non-zerk non-meta on some
I run hybrids (sinister(/carrion/rampager))
I join: l80 EXP (xkAP) I will not ping

I also run full condi’s (rabid/dire) and I do not join with those.
Not for dungeons with any full condi. I would kick somone with a full condi build myself, or leave. Last time 2 or 3 condi players is quite a while ago, but still…. It wil turn out to be annoying and sometimes way to lengthy as well.

I expect people to be honest about their joining a party, it’s a matter of good faith.
I kick naggers, whiners and people who make my run “not-fun” if I need to.
I kick trolls and block them and if needed I report them,

I kicked 4 people in 900 days of playing this game for being annoying…
I seconded at least 50 ppl’s kicks due to gear. Generally only in zerk(-meta) parties , I will kick scepter guardians, necro’s and mesmers quite fast, as I do shortbow rangers.

In l80 exp I’ll tolerate anything as long as it does dmg. even mace guardians. A zealot mace guard is something different then a clerics i know but I still hope people strive to efficiency. I sometimes play (partial) zealot necro/ele/guard and IMHO they can fit in zerk parties as well. but even though it would work I will not do so.

I kicked/ seconded at least 100 ppl for leaving party/ excessive AFK / the need for long phonecalls without any warning, but if someone asks I do not mind them being AFK and I’ll go on 4 man-ning the dungeon, reasons I do not object to are babies, phonecalls, food on (the) fire, toilet, door, and so on.
I do object to having to wait.

I do not care for a gear check, ANY good party with decent buffs and good (dungeon) gear will always outperform a l80 zerk without buffs, meta dungeon weapons / utility and food.

This is pure contradiction. On one hand you kick necromancers and rangers but state a good party will outperform a zerker? My necromancer performs very well in dungeons and I’m glad the players on my server are not as short-sighted and judgemental as this poster.

Altair.8402:

So I know there’s people on both sides of the fence about implementing such a feature for good reasons. I’m not sure if this has been suggested before but:

Why not have a “inspect gear” checkbox?

If you have it toggled on then you can inspect other people’s gear if they have it toggled on. Other people who have it toggled on can also inspect your gear.

If you have it toggled off then no one can inspect your gear, and you can’t inspect other people’s gear.

This way people who care about gear have a better way of checking than pinging, and people who don’t won’t get harassed for their gear.

Thoughts?

i never saw the need for it. Not even while raiding in wow. If someone sucks, it’s easy to tell. if someone has mediocre equipment and wants help, he will ask for it. If someone has mediocre equipment and kicks kitten, it would be unfair to dismiss them because of their equipment. And, anyway, getting full exotics in this game is trivial. why the need for a gearcheck?

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

Windsagio.1340:

You’re just wrong, Steven.

First you have the ability to request ‘zerker’ or ‘meta’ or ‘heavies only’ as you wish. It’s possible people will ignore your wishes, but you have the ability.

Now, lets say they ignore your LFG message. There are really 2 possibilities.

1) You don’t notice, no harm no foul.
2) You do notice, and if even 1 other person agrees with you, you kick them.

Honestly though, I think you’re making this problem for yourself by being so militant about it. Don’t go borrowing excuses to be outraged.

~~

As to my personal position, I think it’s a dumb request (to be frank), but I’m more interested on trying to get people to try to look at it from a developers point of view rather than a “I want it! MEME!” point of view.

Everyone knows you want it, and everyone knows why you want it. The question we have to ask is, why would arenanet want it enough to justify the development costs and server load?

Look pal,

I pug FOTM 50 a lot. Most of the time I don’t ask for Zerk. Occasionally I do. When people aren’t full zerk, you can tell. But you can’t tell which person is a mix and match, or if it’s multiple people etc etc. So you sigh and say, well, this is the cost of not having a GHIW tool and this is the cost of pugging.

Things don’t have to be this way! GHIW! Free groups! That’s Anet’s incentive! This is an MMORPG! Give people the tools to make it easier to either join up with those filthy Zerkers, or avoid them at all cost!

The ONLY thing this would do make it easier for people to prevent lying and cheating, and yes, take up some developer resources. Why is helping people stop the liars and the cheaters a bad goal? Why is allowing people more power to find like minded players a bad goal?

Liars and cheaters? I hardly think gear ranks high in that category. You can tell quickly enough if a player cannot pull his own weight on a five man team. The game is plagued with enough elitists, why encourage them?

Middzz.1490:

Dave.2536:

A player having zerker gear makes him more likely to know how to do things like dodge, stack might, execute a proper rotation, bring utilities to support the party, and not put troll light fields over the ele’s fire fields. A player not having zerker gear makes it less likely he knows (or cares) about that list of things.

.

A very very erronous assumption from my observation….the majority of zerker i find believe in the myth of all you need and are far from adequate.

I said more likely, not 100% or even 50% or 75%. Even 20% is more likely than 0% or 1%.

Wearing glass gear is not all that’s needed to realize one’s potential, but not wearing it is guaranteed to lower that potential. Yes, I realize the difference between potential and reality, and players with large discrepancies between the two can expect to get kicked as well.

Vix.6730:

Liars and cheaters? I hardly think gear ranks high in that category. You can tell quickly enough if a player cannot pull his own weight on a five man team. The game is plagued with enough elitists, why encourage them?

I’d missed the ‘cheaters’ line, and am left wondering how cheating possibly applies in this case ><

I have sympathy for you Nevets Crimsonwing. I completely agree with every single point you’ve made and honestly can’t fathom lasting as long as you have repeating yourself and dealing with all of the illogical whining.

I commend you.

This discussion is boring. I am really happy that there is no gearcheck in this game.
I played the game since start; I didn’t use zerker gear at first for one simple reason, I wasn’t experienced enough with the mob telegraphs and I was dying without knowing how.
So I started playing with a knight set, I get familiar with more & more content and with the game mechanics.
Now I play almost only with full zerker be it fractal or dungeon but I will never join a gearcheck group.
Simply because what’s I’m wearing is none of your issue.
My point of view is the following; GW2 is a game about skill & knowing the encounter not about what you wear.
When I play with people I expect them :
- Not to die at each encounter.
- Not messing the run by doing stupid thing.
- Know their class & utilities.
- Be nice to each other.

That gearcheck is bad; people (in general) will think that zerker gear or specific class is the only viable gear while having no advanced knowledge in the game.
Meaning:
- More people dying at each fight but hey I have zerk & 8K AP.
- More arbritary kick because: look he didn’t have a zerk chest.
- More kick because: Hey you don’t play the class with this amazing build.

This is the kind of elitism that I really dislike.

Purple Miku.7032:

I have sympathy for you Nevets Crimsonwing. I completely agree with every single point you’ve made and honestly can’t fathom lasting as long as you have repeating yourself and dealing with all of the illogical whining.

I commend you.

Maybe then you can explain how cheating is involved.

Purple Miku.7032:

I have sympathy for you Nevets Crimsonwing. I completely agree with every single point you’ve made and honestly can’t fathom lasting as long as you have repeating yourself and dealing with all of the illogical whining.

I commend you.

The most whining I ever hear inside this game involves zerkers and the fact it took an extra minute to complete a dungeon.

I think it is an anti social system where players become so fixated on gearscore that they litterally become a burden to group with and suck all the fun out of the game.And the more they are occupied with that,the less they’ll open up to other players,potential friends,or just players in need…Like they forget its a game…

If they ‘d implement this,there need to be an option to not allow it..If then a player tries to inspect you while you don’t allow it,he/she gets a well deserved slap :p
But seriously,I’d prefer if they wouldn’t implement this at all.

DragonflyDusk.6582:

Purple Miku.7032:

I have sympathy for you Nevets Crimsonwing. I completely agree with every single point you’ve made and honestly can’t fathom lasting as long as you have repeating yourself and dealing with all of the illogical whining.

I commend you.

The most whining I ever hear inside this game involves zerkers and the fact it took an extra minute to complete a dungeon.

Thats exactly the reason why i dont care about having a gear check in game. The only reason i could see a gear check usefull is for build advice… but i doubt somebody who wants advice would link anything but stuff they use atm. Anybody else wouldnt give a darn about what build\gear you use as long as you dont suck\die all 2 seconds\work as team. Imo people who cant deal with having non zerkers in their group should kick em.. ask to ping gear or to be extra sure DONT PUG and make groups with same minded people or guilds and call it a day rather then wanting special treatment…cause lets face it.. almost nobody but dungeon\fractal zerkers want it.

Reports that say that something hasn’t happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns — the ones we don’t know we don’t know.

Pros:
1) Can validate what gear is actually being run during an event- ensure all items are known knows not unknown unknowns.
2) Proves player has made some effort towards the requirement for the group – eg kitted out. They are still a unknown unknown if they actually know how to do the content without dying.
3) Some players will feel they are being kicked quickly for not meeting the requirements quickly – This saves this player from getting kicked later on during a run when the rest of the team realises they do not meet the requirement wasting both the team and that players time. (Eg zerk and taking too little dmg during a one-shot hit). This saves a lot of griefing.
4) Allows people to help teach how to avoid the one-shots where a zerk may be dying in a hit and how to mitigate the dmg through active defenses or a dodge.
5) allows PHIW – to avoid zerk teams and vice versa enforcing a non-zerk group. They can play in full PVT,Clerics, Knights or insist on a mix up as they feel fit. Limits unknown unknowns and makes more known knows.
6) allows fast trait build setup to ensure groups can optimise content together and learn from each other during a run how things change. Eg traits/stuff by inspecting a player as different bosses use different setups.

Cons
1) fear of change / being kicked quickly – as fail to meet requirements = disapointemnts.
2) Dev investment time – there is an element of this required and may limit other content/items we otherwise would get. This also includes bug fixs/improvements to this feature.
3) potential for elitists to insist on a particular build setup or kick – but it could be argued it is there right to demand (or highly recommend) a setup for a particular location.

Most “pro” players are more than happy to teach and grow the strength of players who make an effort to meet a groups requirement even if they are failing badly for the first 50 runs. I have run so many runs with individuals who are still learning a class but they are making the right kind of effort into setups/training/weapons/utilities/runes etc that makes it joyful to teach and watch the journey as they slowly learn how to play the builds better.

“teach”… yea… you really do need to teach stack and attacking or getting a feel for your class or running a build you arent comfortable with…cause many people are not comfortable with zerk. “joyfull” yea…yea.. i wanna see how many people would be all that joyfull in a “fullzerk” group…especially people who DO need to learn how to survive in zerk…90% will just kick the poor guy and have it over with . The only pro is that zerkers can sigh in relief that they cant possible mingle with no zerk peasants on accident, free thinkers ,heretics who dont bow to the allmighty meta or people who got a few minutes more time then they do and by god we cant have that. Also if most pro players are happy to teach…then shouldnt people start with stats they are comfortable with? MIGHT be a logical step to take…just sayin. I consider myself a “better then average” player…clearly nowhere “epic” but i do manage to do my solo\duo dungeon runs. Top times or anything? Nope and neither do i care. IF somebody would ask me for advice i rather would try to find a build together with the guy\girl who wants help that works for him\her and feels comfortable and with that said build we do content together till “it sticks” and then id introduce them slowly to something more zerker related. But then again i might just be a basketcase who needs to be locked away. Actually maybe the gear check is a good thing afterall…but lets extend this even further and just give the party leader an option to block people from even seeing an LFG or getting into the dungeon instance if they arent equipped like he\she wants it. Whatever.. im out

Don’t need to teach stacking actually. Most dungeon encounter require very few stacking, its only that pugs still think stacking helps when it really doesn’t.

Lifestealer.4910:

Don’t need to teach stacking actually. Most dungeon encounter require very few stacking, its only that pugs still think stacking helps when it really doesn’t.

I cringe at how pugs keep using the same spots that were only useful for using fiery rush before the nerf.

Just proves how clueless people really are.

Then these same people are the ones that come on the forums whining about how you stack and bosses die and it’s no fun.

At some point people will realize tht “play how I want” ~= “be easily able to exclude others from playing with me.”

Edit: And seriously, where’s the Keyser Söze with these supporting posts?

I support this feature.
I also support the option of making it available or not, deciding by the pt leader.
When I post a LFG saying Zerker ONLY, and you try to sneak it without the requirement, I have full right to kick you because of your lack of reading skill or cunning attitude. If I say full exotic and you show up with full rare, I have full right to kick you too for scamming me.

On the other hand, a casual team has the option to turn it down too so people wont judge on gears.

This is a design that almost ruined the game play in WOW, gear score and gear item level.

I am against it. i do not think this will improve anything. At best it will allow people to snub their nose at you because you are not “XYZ” like them.

I say leave the system where it is. This do not improve the game play. If you want to know where someone got the gear. Ask them, or try this new invention called Google.

Since the discussion in this thread has derailed and is no longer constructive this thread is now closed.