Guild Wars 2

I mean WTF why do we have to buy 2 set of mini just to have them all.

I actually said something about that to a guild member the other day. Now if they made it to where you get an endless tonic or something by throwing them into the forge that would be nice but this “exclusive” mini that requires you to trash all the ones you just spent good money on is just stupid.

we need to punish Anet by boycotting gemstore.

They’ve done this before. It’s nothing new.

Astral Projections.7320:

They’ve done this before. It’s nothing new.

That doesn’t make it any less seedy.

SundayTrash.9562:

we need to punish Anet by boycotting gemstore.

If you did that and it started to show signs of picking up steam, you’d find yourself unable to ever log in again.

Neural.1824:

SundayTrash.9562:

we need to punish Anet by boycotting gemstore.

If you did that and it started to show signs of picking up steam, you’d find yourself unable to ever log in again.

Or Anet, noticing that their current tactic was floundering, might be inspired to find a new one.

In either case, don’t most people have ridiculous amount of gold to give to the gemstore anyways?

I cannot contain my scathing contempt for Extra Credit.

Kirschwasser.3972:

I cannot contain my scathing contempt for Extra Credit.

I will never understand you.

It’s less them and more the people that bandy them around everywhere as if they were some prophet of game design.

I agree with them on some videos, but some of their videos I do not and it frustrates me when I see people that cling to everything they say as if it were gold. So then I just start hating them.

Stop liking the things I don’t like.

People bandy around many things, including nobodies like Athene, Kripparian etc.

At least Extra credit made a coherent and enjoyable video that makes a valid point.

You have to admit they have some good points.

The did it because, in all likelihood, that the sale of the first pet set dropped off as the majority of hard core pet collectors who started in the first few months of the game have collected them all. So to keep the money coming in they introduced the 2nd set.

Don’t be $illy. Don’t you $ee, the more mini$ required, for the my$tic toilet or otherwi$e, the happier you’ll be! Now, open that wallet and hit the Gem $hop.

I’ve never heard of Extra Credit until the vid post above, but wow. They nailed it with their commentary. I was active in Eve Online during the whole Incarna disaster, and watching it all unfold brought to mind a number of issues. One of the big ones is that game companies seem to hire real world economists to build the financial models on how virtual world economies will work.
Yes, there are parallels, but there are some strong differences as well. The end result is overpricing, poor implementation, and expectations by the company that go far beyond what the users will even think twice about.
Anet is doing quite well at making the wrong decisions, but considering some of the people they’ve hired, they probably have “greed is good” plastered on the walls of their office.

Behellagh.1468:

The did it because, in all likelihood, that the sale of the first pet set dropped off as the majority of hard core pet collectors who started in the first few months of the game have collected them all. So to keep the money coming in they introduced the 2nd set.

Why do you think manufacturers of cars, cel phones, computers etc. keep coming out with new models? That’s the way a business works, if they don’t come up with new things to sell you, most will go out of business.

This is like saying the price on Toyota Camry is unfair!

Who is forcing you to buy it?

GOSU.9574:

This is like saying the price on Toyota Camry is unfair!

Who is forcing you to buy it?

No, it’s not.

Behellagh.1468:

The did it because, in all likelihood, that the sale of the first pet set dropped off as the majority of hard core pet collectors who started in the first few months of the game have collected them all. So to keep the money coming in they introduced the 2nd set.

we’re talking about buying 2 set of the same limited time mini just so u can keep all 4 of them, just because u have to throw one of the set into the forge to get the 4th mini.

tolunart.2095:

Behellagh.1468:

The did it because, in all likelihood, that the sale of the first pet set dropped off as the majority of hard core pet collectors who started in the first few months of the game have collected them all. So to keep the money coming in they introduced the 2nd set.

Why do you think manufacturers of cars, cel phones, computers etc. keep coming out with new models? That’s the way a business works, if they don’t come up with new things to sell you, most will go out of business.

Exactly my point. What? Did you think I’m on the side of everything should be free?

And the Extra Credits video did show that ANet did do a lot of things right.

- They let us buy cash shop currency with in game currency
- They don’t sell power

Now where they strayed is when they turned the BLTC into a lottery ticket when they introduced tokens for PvE armor and weapon skins (or is it just weapon skins, haven’t bothered to notice). It changed the BLTC from a Whitman Sampler of mostly low end boosters and what not from the cash shop to a scratch lottery ticket that comes with low end boosters and what not from the cash shop.

They are obfuscating the fact that some of these skins would cost in the order of $100s of dollars. Now imagine the PR nightmare from putting up those skins for direct purchase at 15-25K gems each? It’ll make the monocle debacle in EVE look like a tempest in a teapot. Yes, they are purely for show and do nothing to alter how the game is played. It’s a luxury item like a Gucci purse or a Rolex watch but only a few who are lucky or have lots of free income can get it and that splits the player base between haves and have nots and that was on the “not do” list in the EC video for microtransactions. We are talking about over 1,200 gold converted to gems and that isn’t even guaranteed to get you one due to the nature of RNG. Yea gold had been flowing into the game lately with the champ changes and the invasions but I would safely say that the majority of players haven’t accumulated 200g in their bank yet for the Golden title.

But the general prices in the store. For the most part they seem fair to me.

GOSU.9574:

This is like saying the price on Toyota Camry is unfair!

Who is forcing you to buy it?

ha, no. At least u can get a second hand when they go out of production. Gem store item are account bound so better luck next time if u missed.

I just posted this topic: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/bltc/Please-use-a-B2P-model-instead-of-a-F2P-model/first#post2860616
and then I saw this one. Have a read at my topic and then you might understand why.

GW2 is using a F2P model meaning they will try to get people to buy gems as that is now there main source of income. They know that some people like to collect some items. Maybe all mini’s maybe all items belonging to some event, so they do this simply because they know people want that one mini and because they hope that in this way people will buy gems.

GW2 should focus on expansions for income so there is no more need for this sort of bad behavior. Bad behavior because imo it is purely based on getting a profit at the expense of the customer in stead of trying to get money by working together with the customer. For the record, there is nothing wrong with a company trying to make money from the customer or every trying to get filthy rich, they have my go on that, it’s the way you do that and the quality effect it has on the product. They try to trick you into buying instead of really creating something you would simply buy without this trick.

Edit: I will make a new topic tomorrow that might be clearer as some people do not seem to understand the issue.

Well they use a Cash Shop model for continuing income but the game doesn’t have all the travesty for a pure F2P game like MapleStory. We aren’t excessively short changed by inventory space or even outfits (although that is arguable) and the quests aren’t excessive grinding. We grind for other reasons but not to just complete the quests. Areas or classes aren’t gated off as they are in some games that moved from subscription to hybrid F2P. We have it quite good here.

But the game does need to bring in a relatively constant stream of income. So it’s only natural that things that sell well once will have “sequels”. It could be a new armor set that related to a LW arc or simply more pets. And isn’t it better to have a separate item for new pets than simply add it to the drop table for old ones? You have all the old ones, you aren’t interested in getting more of those, just the new ones.

Your point Devata seems more in line with the pro expansion/anti Living World crowd rather than pro or anti cash shop crowd, but I can see how one can overlap the two.

Behellagh.1468:

Exactly my point. What? Did you think I’m on the side of everything should be free?
.

Just because I respond to a post does not mean I’m arguing with the poster. It’s a comment about the subject in general, not you.

Devata.6589:

GW2 should focus on expansions for income so there is no more need for this sort of bad behavior. Bad behavior because imo it is purely based on getting a profit at the expense of the customer in stead of trying to get money by working together with the customer. For the record, there is nothing wrong with a company trying to make money from the customer or every trying to get filthy rich, they have my go on that, it’s the way you do that and the quality effect it has on the product. They try to trick you into buying instead of really creating something you would simply buy without this trick.

So, Anet should settle for making $10 mil once a year instead of making $2 mil per month?

tolunart.2095:

So, Anet should settle for making $10 mil once a year instead of making $2 mil per month?

No one’s saying that. I’ll say this, though…

Though it doesn’t show up in an earnings report, goodwill is worth something. Burn enough of it, and your bottom line will suffer.

Mini collectors have always gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to the gem store, and pretty much any other acquisition method. In GW1 you just needed enough gold to buy them and the time and dedication to hunt down people willing to sell the rarer ones.

In this game you need everything from the ability to beat content intended for top-end hardcore players (Liadri) to the willingness to grind content for meta achievements and things like the 40 bauble bubbles needed for the mini Moto and Miya and a lot of money (either real or in-game) to put into the gem store.

IMO the worst offender(s) were the Wintersday Mystery Box minis. The Festive Golem, Airship, Snowman and Foostive the Merry. To get those you had to buy RNG boxes and keep buying them until you had one of each and at least 3 spare to make Foostive in the Mystic Forge. If you got unlucky and missed one, or if you got another extra (say for example you got 5 Airships before getting a Snowman) you were stuck because they’re account bound. But there’s been a lot of other awkward ones (depending on what they do in future Mr Sparkles might move into first place by a very long way), and God forbid you’re away or unable to play for 2 weeks, you’re virtually guaranteed to miss something you won’t be able to get again.

And the annoying thing is they can get away with it. Someone recently paid USD 700 for one mini (the aforementioned Mr Sparkles, which you could only get by going to Gamescon or PAX and finding an Anet employee who still had tickets to give away, and, according to some people, had to know to ask specifically if they were giving away any unique rewards). If people are willing to do that you can guarantee there’s a lot who won’t think twice about buying 2 sets in the gem store.

And unlike weapon skins or back items, which apparently every player has an undeniable right to whether they even showed up for the event or not, there’s never been a massive uproar over minis and probably never will be because it’s a relatively small group of players who are interested.

On a good day the rest of the players “helpfully” point out that they’re just cosmetic items (apparently weapon skins aren’t?) and the special ones aren’t needed for the achievement, which is obviously the only reason to do anything in this game. On a bad day you get people misusing terms like OCD, ADHD or even schizophrenia (I can only assume they know nothing about it except that it’s a mental illness) and loudly declaring that anyone who shows an interest in collecting anything needs to be locked up ASAP for their own safety.

darkace.8925:

tolunart.2095:

So, Anet should settle for making $10 mil once a year instead of making $2 mil per month?

No one’s saying that. I’ll say this, though…

Though it doesn’t show up in an earnings report, goodwill is worth something. Burn enough of it, and your bottom line will suffer.

True. But goodwill losses do not often motivate accountants to change tactics. They’re just interested in the numbers.

And… “GW2 should focus on expansions for income…”

Someone did say that. If expansion income > cash shop income, for the same reason above they would be pushing for expansions and not trying to figure out the best way to squeeze more sales out of rng boxes.

Well, I haven’t heard them mention a thing about the Mr. Sparkles that was given away during those games conventions, which means my collection is now broken anyways, and likely will stay that way. So, why should I even feel anywhere remotely inclined towards spending yet another 1000 Gems on some Miniatures that is not going to help me maintain a goal of having a complete collection? Sorry ArenaNet, but you done goofed with that exclusive Miniature of yours, which is now ruining the ability to create a complete collection, unless you were lucky enough to be there that is.

Even if they were to miraculously enough, acknowledge that what they did was perhaps a (financially) bad call, putting up Mr. Sparkles in the Gem Store for a direct purchase as well (meaning those that went to the convention got it for free, while the rest would have to pay for it)—what’s to stop them from repeating this sort of thing 6 months-, 12 months-, 18 months down the line? They already did something similar at launch with those GW2 logo t-shirts (town clothes), something which plenty of ticked off players voiced their anger over. Now they’ve gone ahead and done the same thing again. I’ve simply lost my faith in them for stuff like this completely, and that’ll mean less money from me going into the Gem Store. That’s good business sense on their part, right?

Off-topic: The money-grabbing business tactics they’re displaying lately is getting somewhat disgusting. Seriously.. they added both a World 1- and a World 2 Boombox item, really? Two separate items, taking up two separate inventory slots, when they could easily have had 1-5 keys play songs, with 6 and 7 switching up and down between sets of songs (you know, kinda like their instruments allowing you to switch up and down octaves).

To all those who posted contrary to my post, no sorry. You are NOT required to purchase anything from the Gem Store. Spend your money somewhere else if you don’t like the pricing, etc.

Crazy as it might seem I’m still hoping they will sort out the ridiculous Mr Sparkles situation one way or another.

The thing that’s putting me off bothering with future minis is actually the sheer number of them. GW1 at present (7 years after they were first introduced) has 124 minis (excluding the 3 frogs which only Gaile got). GW2, just over 12 months after launch (when minis were first available) has 171 and at least 2 or 3 being added every single month. It’s getting to the point where it’s going from a fun thing to do on the side to having to be the main focus of my time in-game just to keep up, and even I don’t find minis that interesting.

AntiGw.9367:

People bandy around many things, including nobodies like Athene, Kripparian etc.

At least Extra credit made a coherent and enjoyable video that makes a valid point.

Yet it did not really address the bad behavior we see in GW2. And fact is that there is almost no F2P game that does not seem to be affected by this ‘bad behavior’. Now if it is next to a other payment model it might work (I did see some fair credit shop in sub-based games for example). But as soon as there focus is F2P they always tent to get into the bad behavior. The reason most likely is because a game that focuses on P2P or B2P has it’s marketing team also focusing on that while a F2P game has it’s marketing team focusing on the credit shop so they come up with idea’s to improve those sales but that are always idea’s that have an effect on the game itself and so are nearly always bad for the game.

The hard reality might be that customers simply can not trust company’s on creating a good credit shop when that credit shop has the focus (and maybe even when it has no focus).

B2P is the way to go if you ask me but for as long as people get tricked into buying gems companies seem to prefer that (and sub-based). However for a model thats good for the game, the company and the customer you really want B2P (and then not DLC except for big expansions because DLC is also a from of extra content for credit).

Behellagh.1468:

Well they use a Cash Shop model for continuing income but the game doesn’t have all the travesty for a pure F2P game like MapleStory. We aren’t excessively short changed by inventory space or even outfits (although that is arguable) and the quests aren’t excessive grinding. We grind for other reasons but not to just complete the quests. Areas or classes aren’t gated off as they are in some games that moved from subscription to hybrid F2P. We have it quite good here.

But the game does need to bring in a relatively constant stream of income. So it’s only natural that things that sell well once will have “sequels”. It could be a new armor set that related to a LW arc or simply more pets. And isn’t it better to have a separate item for new pets than simply add it to the drop table for old ones? You have all the old ones, you aren’t interested in getting more of those, just the new ones.

Your point Devata seems more in line with the pro expansion/anti Living World crowd rather than pro or anti cash shop crowd, but I can see how one can overlap the two.

Adding a new item is not the problem, removing the old one (to create a form of pressure to buy) is.

And it is not so much as expansion versus Living World but B2P vs F2P And yes B2P would mean a focus on expansion and Anet uses there living story as a ‘cover’ for there temporary sales but they could use multiple other systems for that. However the Expansions vs Living story is also about the sort of content while I am purely talking about the financial viewpoint and it’s impact on the game.

Like you say, they need to generate a constant stream of income. I totally do understand that and thats not the problem but if you do that in a way that effects the game in a bad way then thats the problem.

tolunart.2095:

Devata.6589:

GW2 should focus on expansions for income so there is no more need for this sort of bad behavior. Bad behavior because imo it is purely based on getting a profit at the expense of the customer in stead of trying to get money by working together with the customer. For the record, there is nothing wrong with a company trying to make money from the customer or every trying to get filthy rich, they have my go on that, it’s the way you do that and the quality effect it has on the product. They try to trick you into buying instead of really creating something you would simply buy without this trick.

So, Anet should settle for making $10 mil once a year instead of making $2 mil per month?

I think the total income would be about the same, most likely even higher because the people that spend a lot of money on gems will still do so also without heavy marketing tricks. They will pay some less and other people might not buy anything at all but the gem-store would then also be nothing more as a extra.

That is if you would keep the gem-store. Looking at how company’s handle then as customer you might not trust them with it and prefer to have no cash-shop at all.. but lets amuse that with focus on other income they make a good cash-shop with just some fun items permanently available and no focus on it.

Besides that the game stays hot because expansions will get people back and get more attention in the (game)news. Active players and new players will buy the expansions and so on.

Another big plus is that you alienate way less people meaning you have a longer live spawn. But while I think they might make the same or maybe even more lets say they make a little less (per year)

So should they then settle for 22 mil per year (over a live-spawn of lets say 5 year) in stead of 2 mil per month (over a live-spawn of lets say 12 years). Yes they should. They will have a better name as a company, they create a better product,, the customers are not being tricked and the game brings in money for a longer time.

The heavier the focus on the cash-shop the more they might make in the short run (your month) but the shorter the life-spawn.

Absconditus.6804:

unless you were lucky enough to be there that is.

I was there, We did see the ArenaNet employee and we almost talked to her to ask where the GW2 stand was (turned out they did not have one this year) but figured we would find it on our own (she just entered a building we left so then we had to rush after here in the crowd to ask where the stand was).

Then we come home and find out about Mr Sparkles.

But I can make it better. Last year they gave ingame GW2 T-shirts. We where there but they stopped giving it out because… here it comes… that would be unfair as not everybody would get the same change for getting it.

Eventually some fan-sites got the possibility to give some away, I did sign up on the contest to get one but mist out on it. So there you have it. 2 times taken the time and will to go / search for there stand and never got anything. Now I don’t mind it if they do not give anything but the way they do it is really bad. Well maybe Mr sparkles will be available next year again (that would then at least be a good decision) and for sure that we will ask an Anet employee for it next year if Anet will be there next year.

How does removing a purely cosmetic item “effects the game in a bad way”. It doesn’t affect game play at all. It merely encourages players who want them to act now. It’s no different than any other limited time offer like the mini hippo calf or the infinite gathering tools. Here’s your window of opportunity, act now or regret not acting later.

Devata.6589:

I think the total income would be about the same, most likely even higher because the people that spend a lot of money on gems will still do so also without heavy marketing tricks. They will pay some less and other people might not buy anything at all but the gem-store would then also be nothing more as a extra.

You realize that there are people who study these kinds of things for a living, right? They study the behavior of the market in this game and other games, and try to predict what would happen if the company did something, and what would happen if they did something else instead. They study real data and have education and experience doing this sort of thing. Their opinions generally count for more than some guy on the forums.

I’ve seen posts quoting from NCSoft’s financial reports, and it’s pretty obvious that the cash shop has provided a steady income that eliminates the pressure to develop an expansion because their investment of money and time is repaid almost immediately instead of a year or so later.

I keep seeing people refer to being tricked into buying gems. What trick ? Did Anet download a patch that causes your account to purchase gems whenever you activate your self heal ? Did they tell you that the gems were actually free and that you would receive a refund of the purchase price as soon as you sent some money to a Nigerian prince ?

Or do they allow you to buy gems if you want, potentially without spending a single dime of real world money, something offered in the gem store ?

Yeah, that is a one heck of a nasty trick….letting you spend your money on something you want and even allowing you to get what you want without spending any money at all.

Behellagh.1468:

How does removing a purely cosmetic item “effects the game in a bad way”. It doesn’t affect game play at all. It merely encourages players who want them to act now. It’s no different than any other limited time offer like the mini hippo calf or the infinite gathering tools. Here’s your window of opportunity, act now or regret not acting later.

The model does effect the game as the game is build around this idea. Thats also why we did see many temporary living story patches. It was an excuses for many of the temporary available items. From a business viewpoint not much more or less then that.

But taking this one thing sperate (removing a purely cosmetic item) does not effect the game itself. It does effect the way you play the game (pressured) and how the company handles it’s customers (bad by trying to trick them). It’s indeed the same as there “limited time offer like the mini hippo calf or the infinite gathering tools. Here’s your window of opportunity, act now or regret not acting later.”

And they where all just as bad and I did say similar things about that.

tolunart.2095:

Devata.6589:

I think the total income would be about the same, most likely even higher because the people that spend a lot of money on gems will still do so also without heavy marketing tricks. They will pay some less and other people might not buy anything at all but the gem-store would then also be nothing more as a extra.

You realize that there are people who study these kinds of things for a living, right? They study the behavior of the market in this game and other games, and try to predict what would happen if the company did something, and what would happen if they did something else instead. They study real data and have education and experience doing this sort of thing. Their opinions generally count for more than some guy on the forums.

I’ve seen posts quoting from NCSoft’s financial reports, and it’s pretty obvious that the cash shop has provided a steady income that eliminates the pressure to develop an expansion because their investment of money and time is repaid almost immediately instead of a year or so later.

Yeah I do realize that. Do you also realize that those same sort of people are responsible for the many P2P models we have seen over the last 9 years… you know those that all failed. So that by itself does not say so much.

I also do understand that it does make them money (for now.. I think it’s more short run then B2P… GW2 is in a way still running on the B2P model from GW1 as thats really what made GW1 / ArenaNet big) but while I do look at it from the financial viewpoint for ArenaNet / NCSoft’s I also look at it from the viewpoint of quality of the game and the customer.

Something those people you refer to care a little less about. It’s like they say.. A good game with bad publicity may fail while a bad game with good publicity can make a lot of money. Guess what those people would prefer?

And then being a customer and looking from all those angles I say they should go B2P because it’s good for me and it’s good for them. F2P is financially better for me as I do not pay for cash-shop items but it’s not so good for my entertainment level and also not so good for the way I think about the company behind it.

Ashen.2907:

I keep seeing people refer to being tricked into buying gems. What trick ? Did Anet download a patch that causes your account to purchase gems whenever you activate your self heal ? Did they tell you that the gems were actually free and that you would receive a refund of the purchase price as soon as you sent some money to a Nigerian prince ?

Or do they allow you to buy gems if you want, potentially without spending a single dime of real world money, something offered in the gem store ?

Yeah, that is a one heck of a nasty trick….letting you spend your money on something you want and even allowing you to get what you want without spending any money at all.

That refers to marketing tricks. One of those marketing tricks is creating a sense of urgency. You can do that with limited items available or limited time available.

It’s psychological. Like a shop that uses a smell or images or even a specific way of division to get you to buy stuff in stead of just trying to provide you with the best quality items to get you to buy it.

Devata.6589:

That refers to marketing tricks. One of those marketing tricks is creating a sense of urgency. You can do that with limited items available or limited time available.

Even so no one is being tricked into buying gems as has been claimed here.

It just means that it cost 1000gems + rune for 4 minis. Would it seems better to you if they priced it like that?

Honestly you people can complain on and on..but until you guys stop buying the stuff and tell Anet (and other companies) that this is not right, by lowering their bottom line, nothing will ever change..

You have to actively force yourselves to not be scammed like this to make a difference.

Why do so many people feel they have so little fortitude as to be ‘tricked’ into buying something? Where is the personal responsibility? If you feel it’s a bad marketing ploy, then wouldn’t you be able to resist? Or are that many people brainwashed? My kids whine all the time about how it’s not their fault they make bad choices. I tell them to grow up and become responsible for their own actions. Of course, that’s just me.

Anet doesn’t make money on gemstore purchases

only ncsoft

I somehow highly doubt that, Charak.

they should also tell you pet collectors to buy a few of each, they will be worth 10 times more in 5 years!!!