Guild Wars 2

Celestina.2894:

Even FPS games have begun to use level progression for their multi-player actually.

I dislike it there, but yeah.

The way that levels are implemented in other games is vastly different though. The current leveling system in Guild Wars 2 simply sucks.

The systems to fix down-scaling and up-scaling as said were poorly done on PvE. Sadly caused people to group on the same places every time, after the 15h orr is being zerged amazingly. The leveling only caused the several maps balance a nightmare, and the way things is far from, balanced and equally rewarding.
On that aspect if GW2 was the first MMO able to offer other kind of progression that is not leveling, i imagine it could have been better. ^-^

I have to agree with the op on this levels in the game really do mean nothing almost except for opening new maps and gaining sp till you hit level 30 then traits. I myself never notice my levels ever hardly and then I will unlock a bunch of skills and traits most of the time though I do not notice I level at all because of how I play the game. That is because of the way its set up I never leave a map till its finished and I do not start my story till I finish the first map.

After that I just move through all the starting maps and cities getting 100% on maps till I hit 80 then I do my story to Orr then just play how I want after. But I would prefer to play how I want from start exploring the world how I want that way it feels more alive to my style of play then being made to follow the yellowbrick road if you will.

But that is not my choice to change in the game that is the devs choice to change it and hey if they do all the power to them if they do not no worries on my end ether cause I am 1 character away from eight 80s anyway. And once they get there I will just play the game the way I want. And travel the maps the way I choose to and play around in the world openly then restricted and its just more fun that way.

Knighthonor.4061:

DakotaCoty.5721:

Knighthonor.4061:

DakotaCoty.5721:

I don’t know ANY MMO games that don’t use a form of leveling as a way of progression. Not one.

Many MMOs dont. the first MMOs didnt have character levels. it had other forms of progression.
Didnt need a number on your avatar to tell you your progression.

Yes they did.
Tibia: Skill and Level progression
TSW: Weapon progression and spell buildups
DCUO: Achievement progression to unlock more weapons
Aion: Leveling
Perfect World: Leveling

If an MMO doesn’t have some form of numerical progression, whether it be item refinery (Jade Dynasty), or character levels then it really isn’t filling up to that ‘MMO’ standard that we have today.

Leveling in guildwars is fairly easy:
- Crafting, now gives 12 levels instead of 10.
- Events
- Hearts
- Eye of the Mists is perfect for leveling, got my ranger from 20-26 in just 1 hour.

#TheMoreYouKnow.

Progression doesnt have to be character levels though.
Nowhere is it stated that a MMO needs to have Character levels in order for it to be a MMO. UO didnt have character levels yet was the first MMO.

UO wasn’t the first, Meridian 59 was. And it didn’t have levels either except for skills/spell progression. It was, however, tied to how much health you got which was earned by killing specific monsters repeatedly accumulating invisible experience. (All experience was invisible in that game, actually.)

Ultima Online didn’t have levels, but it was still stuck to some vertical progression due to how your statistics raised (Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence) which meant there was a definite power level going on.

I have trouble reaching for MMOs afterwards which didn’t specifically have “level” involved. I suspect EvE Online didn’t but substituted skill and ships for progression. Minecraft technically doesn’t have “levels” . . . but at the same time technically isn’t an MMO (despite having more active players than WoW, with access to online multiplayer).

_"I’d rather see a game with skill based progression, that is to say, you never level but there are harder zones and you need to compensate by getting better at the game. I feel like gear ought to work similarly. Getting new stuff should be about diversifying options not increasing stats. This would shift the enjoyment back onto the content rather than it always being about what gave the best loot or the fastest xp over time.

That said, it won’t happen. Level systems are used to develop attachment to a game and your characters so you will stay a loyal customer even if you grow bored because you already sank enough time that you don’t want to throw it away. Its pretty essential to making MMOs profitable, as well as making the player base large enough to keep the community feeling."_

Well said. First and foremost, the purpose of leveling is to create a time sink so customers stay longer. That would make sense if Guild Wars 2 was a subscription based MMO. However, it is not, so IMHO Anet should develop another system more similar to spvp. I would much rather see a system of progression as described above.

With that said, Guild Wars 2 does leveling right. It is absolutely the best leveling system I have ever played, and the scaled content is a great compliment so higher level friends can help lower level friends. Another reason for grinding levels is for learning your character. I just don’t think it takes 80 levels to do that.

The leveling process might be a tad to long.
I think it would be a good idea to make sub-80s tougher in dungeons (and maybe 80s more fragile, hurrhurr perhaps-bring-something-in-addition-to-zerker)

That’s the big issues I find with the leveling system. Otherwise it’s really good and a big part/feature of the game.

Myrnar.7960:

I wonder why we should play at all. Just give us end level characters fully equipped with BiS gear.

So we only have to stay around in one place and get bored…LOL

I hate when people use this as a counter argument, because thats clearly not what is asked.

Levels are meaningless grind that could be replaced with meaningful progression system.

Use tutorials for tutorials, not force us to grind levels as an excuse for tutorial.

They could yank the leveling system, and add a skill based system in its place. Instead of allowing us to do everything with our weapons from the start add in a leveling system for those, you gain weapon xp as you use the weapon unlocking better skills (this would be a good system to add weapon skill swapping so we don’t have the same 5 skills all day e’ry day). Do the same for profession skills/mechanics. Add different mechanics that can specialize in as you become a better Engineer or Elementalist.

They could also add stat points to the maps, much the same as skill points, so that you could better fine tune your characters, make em a pain to get so we have to work for them. Further along with that, pull the waypoints, so that we actually have to explore. Lock trait points behind personal story, or areas on the map. Theres a lot of things they could do with this.

Nerelith.7360:

DakotaCoty.5721:

I don’t know ANY MMO games that don’t use a form of leveling as a way of progression. Not one.

There are games that have no levelling. But those are primarilly action games, and FPS… etc. The MMO that takes levelling out of it’s experience ceases to be an MMO…

well said.

I have even seen some FPS games that had leveling. It was used, I believe as it is in MMOs, to keep a player out of certain areas until they are ready for it, not just with game gear, but with the player getting game playing experience as well. And technically speaking, you COULD have an MMO that doesn’t have leveling, but I don’t think it would last very long.

Developing skills – power, range, number of targets, etc – with experience gained through playing will feel more accomplishing then a meaningless number on the character.
it will eliminate the current “standard” but will not jump to far away from it.
it will evolve the MMOs like other things in GW2 have already done (no kills or resource steal)

Noooo! How will the best players know which dungeon parties to quit less than a second after joining?

Knighthonor.4061:

Myrnar.7960:

I wonder why we should play at all. Just give us end level characters fully equipped with BiS gear.

So we only have to stay around in one place and get bored…LOL

I hate when people use this as a counter argument, because thats clearly not what is asked.

Levels are meaningless grind that could be replaced with meaningful progression system.

Use tutorials for tutorials, not force us to grind levels as an excuse for tutorial.

If you feel that levelling is a meaningless grind then maybe MMO’s are not the genre for you?

Just feel that disliking levelling in an MMO, is like… Buying a Horror movie, and complaining about the scary parts. “Rosemary’s Baby” would be a better movie, without the demon possession and Witch coven parts?

Nerelith.7360:

DakotaCoty.5721:

I don’t know ANY MMO games that don’t use a form of leveling as a way of progression. Not one.

There are games that have no levelling. But those are primarilly action games, and FPS… etc. The MMO that takes levelling out of it’s experience ceases to be an MMO…

well said.

Just wanted to add one more
Spread Sheet Simulator game by CCP Games doesn’t have levels either.

pdavis.8031:

Leveling up is a integral part of any RPG, tabletop or otherwise. GW2 is classified as an MMORPG (Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game) for a reason. Without having some sort of character progression (i.e. leveling) It’s not by definition, an RPG. Even if the classic idea of leveling were removed from this game, there would be no “starting out at level 80” because level 80 wouldn’t mean anything. But even with the idea of aquiring new traits and abilities as you progress it’s still a form of leveling up. You character is getting better as they proceed through the story, events, dungeons, etc. Which is the whole point of “leveling up” anyway. Also without Leveling, the is no way to measure your progess or strength. All Mobs would be the same difficulty, The bandits in Queensdale would be as tough as Ice Brood colossi in Frostgorge. Having champions, elites, and veterans would be meaningless, because those designations mean they are of a higher level. Gear would become meaningless. What would it matter if you had the exotic “kitten greatsword of awesomeness”? It being exotic means its a higher level than rare or masterwork. It would be the same as the “OK sword of Meh” Stats would have to be the same on both. because there is no levels.

Not having levels, would make this similiar to Second Life, just set in Tyria. It would be boring as all get out.

I hear this claim often that levels etc are integral to what is and isn’t an RPG. Yet it’s a flawed claim. It is mistaking a simple convenience in showing a character improving through their adventure from table-top RPGs to the very purpose of it: role playing. Role playing doesn’t need levels it’s just when you’re sat at a table it offers a visual representation of increased character skill… that’s it.

Yet with cRPGs there’s far more potential for alternative methods.

Been thinking for a very long time that levels are pointless. They are just an old-fashioned lazy training/progression mechanic that looks completely out of place in a more modern MMO. I have no idea why ANet stuck with it, and even expanded it from 20 to 80.

It’s just grind, nothing else, grind for no purpose other than WoW had 80 levels so we have to.

Leveling in this game feels like an extended tutorial and a way to gradually introduce new players to skills, traits, and dungeons. But there would be other ways to do that. (If you still “leveled up” for skill points, for example.)

In my opinion they mainly exist because we’re trained to think leveling in MMOs is supposed to exist, kind of like MP systems persisting in a lot of MMOs/RPGs despite the fact that resource management isn’t even that fun most of the time.

It wouldn’t alter much about the game to remove them, except for needing to find a new way to introduce players to new dungeons gradually, and finding a new way to gate traits/skills in a way that doesn’t overwhelm new players. (GW2 could stand to re-redo it’s whole idea of how traits work, but that’s another post.)

I think leveling is important as it provides short term goals and a feeling of progression (even if that progression is ultimately hollow, it’s the “feel” that counts in this case).

However,
I do agree with the OP’s “let us make our own journey” message, and have been wanting an MMO that does so for a long time.
I think simple up and down scaling would more then adequately provide this in most MMOs.
In GW2, down-scaling is already present and allows us to revisit any piece of content in the game without trivializing it by being too high of a level. Furthermore, it makes playing with friends easier because you don’t have to worry about matching your level. This is great, and I feel all MMOs should do it.
Now they just need to add up-scaling, so that we can adventure anywhere we want without fear of being one-shot or facing impossible to complete content just because of an arbitrary ‘level’ number. You would be slightly better/worse for wear depending on where you go because of trait/ability availability, but that’s not a bad thing.
If the devs absolutely wanted to limit zone availability for the sake of the experience they are trying to deliver (for example, for the sake of story progression), they could limit up-scaling, making it so that you can only upscale a certain number of levels.

In the case of GW2, everything needed to make this happen is already available in the game, its just a matter of the devs deciding that they want to do so.
I really hope they do.

I like leveling, it is fun and I am an altaholic so it keeps me occupied.

Arewn.2368:

I think leveling is important as it provides short term goals and a feeling of progression (even if that progression is ultimately hollow, it’s the “feel” that counts in this case).

However,
I do agree with the OP’s “let us make our own journey” message, and have been wanting an MMO that does so for a long time.
I think simple up and down scaling would more then adequately provide this in most MMOs.
In GW2, down-scaling is already present and allows us to revisit any piece of content in the game without trivializing it by being too high of a level. Furthermore, it makes playing with friends easier because you don’t have to worry about matching your level. This is great, and I feel all MMOs should do it.
Now they just need to add up-scaling, so that we can adventure anywhere we want without fear of being one-shot or facing impossible to complete content just because of an arbitrary ‘level’ number. You would be slightly better/worse for wear depending on where you go because of trait/ability availability, but that’s not a bad thing.
If the devs absolutely wanted to limit zone availability for the sake of the experience they are trying to deliver (for example, for the sake of story progression), they could limit up-scaling, making it so that you can only upscale a certain number of levels.

In the case of GW2, everything needed to make this happen is already available in the game, its just a matter of the devs deciding that they want to do so.
I really hope they do.

up scaling ruins the sense of progression a lot. for one you dont feel any more powerful becasue at level 1 or at level 80 you still fight the same monsters in the same zone. A lot of the fun in leveling is getting stronger and fighting things you couldn’t before.

I dont get that feeling in this game as much, but in Runescape that was a huge deal. I would run around a ton and find things that would 1 to 2 hit me, and so I would go grind because I wanted to see what was past them, or what they dropped, or just to kill them. It was great fun

While I agree with this in the overall early design of a game I don’t think they’ll be able to do this without significant difficulties because there are other items that are gathered through the leveling process even at level 80 like transmute stones, karma, and coins.

Armor tiers are level based. Minor, major and superior runes and sigils are also level based. That is how the devs want it.

I personally get a feeling of anticipation when I can finally wear tier III armor, both the cultural, and the crafted. I Anticipate being able to finally get armor with three stats.

I enjoy anticipating being able to usee major and superior runes. This for me is part of the progression.

If they eliminated levels, and let me have superior runes and tier III armor day one, the game would be lack any feeling of accomplishment. At that point I would feel like .." why play an MMO that gives me everything day one? for that i’ll go play an FPS, except I hate FPS’s… Why turn an MMORPG into an FPS?"

Lol with this idea the game truly is turning into a dress up habbo hotel

This has been said time and time again already. Use the bloody search tool there is about 50 other threads all about removing leveling. There is even reports that Guild Wars 2 Alpha had no levels, but the testers were as lost as hell.

What are you smoking matey?? all i do is level alts there is nothing fun then leveling! grab a friend get on skype/TS3 and do hearts.

The only mmo I know of thats going to try no level horizontal progression, and endgame starts at lvl 1 is Camelot Unchained.

Will be interesting to see how that pans out.

You cant really remove leveling in a game like GW2, players need some kind of attachment to their characters via that level grind, otherwise people would get very bored with PvE within 1 week or so of playing lol.

Suddenflame.2601:

This has been said time and time again already. Use the bloody search tool there is about 50 other threads all about removing leveling. There is even reports that Guild Wars 2 Alpha had no levels, but the testers were as lost as hell.

Have you tried to “use the bloody search tool” yourself? It has been non-functional for over a year and a half so no need to get upset at the creator of a thread covering a topic that has already been discussed. Do not instruct others to use it as it does not work and they refuse to either fix it, replace it with a functional search utility or remove it entirely.

Yes. Levels are outdated.

Rainbow Sprint.3215:

Where did anet say endgame starts at level 1?

Removing levels would actually be ok if they fixed the scaling system so everything is a challenge at level 80.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/the-endgame-reimagined/

I don’t understand this……This is RPG and leveling is part of RPG. Days of games where max level was almost impossible to get are just gone but leveling will always be part of RPG games. And GW2 has one of the best leveling system. And there are even ways how to literaly skip it by scrolls if anyone really hate it. At least leveling is fast fluent and no painfull grind….seriously did you tried to level for example in SWTOR as F2P? That is painfull experience i can tell you…So i am very happy for leveling system we have in GW2.

daros.3407:

I don’t understand this……This is RPG and leveling is part of RPG. Days of games where max level was almost impossible to get are just gone but leveling will always be part of RPG games. And GW2 has one of the best leveling system. And there are even ways how to literaly skip it by scrolls if anyone really hate it. At least leveling is fast fluent and no painfull grind….seriously did you tried to level for example in SWTOR as F2P? That is painfull experience i can tell you…So i am very happy for leveling system we have in GW2.

You are right, levels have always been part of RPG games. It was a way to slow your progression through the storyline and make the game last longer. GW2 is not a true RPG, leveling is pointless aside from slowing your progress through the personal story and gating you out of certain maps. There are far better methods of progression that could be used other than leveling.

MINKZILLA.6023:

up scaling ruins the sense of progression a lot. for one you dont feel any more powerful becasue at level 1 or at level 80 you still fight the same monsters in the same zone. A lot of the fun in leveling is getting stronger and fighting things you couldn’t before.

I dont get that feeling in this game as much, but in Runescape that was a huge deal. I would run around a ton and find things that would 1 to 2 hit me, and so I would go grind because I wanted to see what was past them, or what they dropped, or just to kill them. It was great fun

You’re still unlocking traits, abilities, getting new armor, etc. so the prgoression is still there. And you’re not fighting the same thing since you have the freedom to go where ever you want.