Guild Wars 2

Ashen.2907:

maddoctor.2738:

Ashen.2907:

Harper.4173:

Daddicus.6128:

Palador.2170:

But it DOESN’T work, and that’s why it’s not an exploit.

The vast majority of posters here disagree with you. They’re the ones who say “when fully dead, waypoint out and run back”. And, they claim to have all kinds of data to support that argument.

I don’t agree with them, but this thread is to determine whether, if it DOES work, SHOULD it work?

NOTE: There are people who won’t rez dead people because of this effect. So, there’s a very real effect in-game, regardless of whether it is true or not.

Well that’s because a dead player near a boss scales up that boss – but doesn’t deal any damage.
It makes sense that regardless of your gear – if you’re dead you should be able to wp out and come back.
Unless of course you want to punish people who are low skill and die (regardless of gear) by not allowing them the chance to come back and take credit or participate any further once they’re dead.

This is as much an exploit as gliding off a ledge when some mobs are pursuing you.

Yes – there are people that won’t res you – because they shouldn’t have to.
If you died – you died because you didn’t do everything right to survive. Either you took too much glass gear that you can’t handle – or didn’t pay attention – or something else but that’s on you.
And the price you pay for your mistake is having to WP out and run back.
People can res you if they feel like it – but they are by no means obligated to do so.

When forum posters complained about players lying dead rather than waypointing Anet commented that their dynamic scaling paid attention to active participation, not just proximity to the encounter. Supposedly, dead and/or AFK characters do not continue to affect encounter scaling.

Wasn’t there a timer for that? Like dead players don’t affect scaling until some time passes since they died

I think that there was some comment that down scaling for a dead or afk character is not instantaneous. So a dead character will affect encounter scaling until a subsequent participation check by whatever system tracks such.

Which means, based on how long that check takes, not scaling with dead or afk characters might be completely useless. For example, if an event takes 5 minutes and down scaling happens after 2 minutes, it’s still better to use a waypoint and not play dead.

maddoctor.2738:

Ashen.2907:

Harper.4173:

Daddicus.6128:

Palador.2170:

But it DOESN’T work, and that’s why it’s not an exploit.

The vast majority of posters here disagree with you. They’re the ones who say “when fully dead, waypoint out and run back”. And, they claim to have all kinds of data to support that argument.

I don’t agree with them, but this thread is to determine whether, if it DOES work, SHOULD it work?

NOTE: There are people who won’t rez dead people because of this effect. So, there’s a very real effect in-game, regardless of whether it is true or not.

Well that’s because a dead player near a boss scales up that boss – but doesn’t deal any damage.
It makes sense that regardless of your gear – if you’re dead you should be able to wp out and come back.
Unless of course you want to punish people who are low skill and die (regardless of gear) by not allowing them the chance to come back and take credit or participate any further once they’re dead.

This is as much an exploit as gliding off a ledge when some mobs are pursuing you.

Yes – there are people that won’t res you – because they shouldn’t have to.
If you died – you died because you didn’t do everything right to survive. Either you took too much glass gear that you can’t handle – or didn’t pay attention – or something else but that’s on you.
And the price you pay for your mistake is having to WP out and run back.
People can res you if they feel like it – but they are by no means obligated to do so.

When forum posters complained about players lying dead rather than waypointing Anet commented that their dynamic scaling paid attention to active participation, not just proximity to the encounter. Supposedly, dead and/or AFK characters do not continue to affect encounter scaling.

Wasn’t there a timer for that? Like dead players don’t affect scaling until some time passes since they died

Exactly.

Here some info to clear things up:

- scaling is near instant (we are talking 1-2 seconds delay at most) for players entering or leaving the area of an event. This has been tested in the past so unless arenanet made changes to this, it should still work that way. Ways to enter/leave event areas:
→ walk into/outof event range
→ waypoint out of event range
→ any other form of accessing/leaving the event area which puts your character phisically in range of the event

As far as contribution goes, any of the following will count towards the playercount for determening event scaling:
→ active players (the entire time)
→ downed players (the entire time)
→ dead players (for a signinificant amount of time, I think it was something along the lines of 30 seconds)

These things do NOT count towards event scaling:
→ players not in range
→ players who have been flaged afk
→ players who have been dead for a significant amount of time

Cyninja.2954:

Here’s the thing. If they wanted to limit waypointing in open world encoutners, they could. It would be easy to:

- reduce the amount of waypoints or make available waypoints contested
- disallow waypointing while other players nearby are still in combat
- remove contribution from players who waypoint

There is also the VW/Marionette approach. You can WP if you want but you won’t be able get back into the fight.

Cyninja.2954:

These things do NOT count towards event scaling:
-> players not in range
-> players who have been flaged afk
-> players who have been dead for a significant amount of time

The player that tested scaling found that dead players counted for at least 15 minutes (reddit). You can probably assume that scaling is a simple check of how many players are within the event’s area.

Originally, scaling was different, but it was changed at some point during season 1. Back then, scaling occurred every few seconds and only active players were factored. Basically, you had to be in combat to count. The problem however was that it was easily exploited and with the zerg design of season 1, became more of a problem. Large groups would destroy the target before it actually scaled.

Seera.5916:

3. Prior to this patch, reviving someone did not count one bit towards participation and if the fight is quick enough stopping to revive someone could cost them participation, especially if the person who stops to revive the player arrived late or doesn’t do as much damage as the others around them. This isn’t as big of an issue now that they do allow for support to count toward participation.

Yes, and that’s exactly why I put forth the question.

Harper.4173:

1 person dies – and waypoints out – boss scales for 9 people.
The dead person comes back and resumes the fight – boss scales for 10 people again.

But, if 5 people die and WP out, they’ve done enough damage already that the boss dies quickly with the 5 remaining. THAT is the exploit. I’ve seen it happen more than once.

Ashen.2907:

When forum posters complained about players lying dead rather than waypointing Anet commented that their dynamic scaling paid attention to active participation, not just proximity to the encounter. Supposedly, dead and/or AFK characters do not continue to affect encounter scaling.

That may be (I actually believe you are correct).

The problem is the people who believe the opposite, and plan on waypointing out if they die. That’s what I’m calling an exploit.

Daddicus.6128:

As it currently sits, GW2 (I’m only discussing PvE here) allows a glass-cannon strategy. What I mean by that is that you can put all your optional attribute points into things that do damage. Against smaller mobs, you end up killing the enemy before it can kill you. Against larger mobs, the character begins to have problems.

Against bosses and very large mobs, though, glass-cannons become an exploit. The GC charges in, deals a large amount of damage, dies, and then waypoints and runs back to combat to repeat the process.

IMO, this is an exploit. Do you agree? Why or why not? Also, if you agree, what should be done about it?

NOTE: Please don’t argue whether this actually works or not. Most everybody’s mind is already made up on that; that’s quite obvious from many other threads. Please stick with the more philosophical question of whether it SHOULD work or not.

Waypoints cost money, so I don’t consider this tactic an exploit. Your suggestion sounds like the strategy of someone doing a Guild Bounty Hunt Mission to me. A strategy which many guilds, mostly smaller ones, would use.

If using Berserker armor as a mesmer is an exploit then I dare say we should just ban all the mesmers. I support.

Daddicus.6128:

Harper.4173:

1 person dies – and waypoints out – boss scales for 9 people.
The dead person comes back and resumes the fight – boss scales for 10 people again.

But, if 5 people die and WP out, they’ve done enough damage already that the boss dies quickly with the 5 remaining. THAT is the exploit. I’ve seen it happen more than once.

That’s not an exploit.

That’s likely 5 people who didn’t read the boss’ tell in time to dodge out of the way and died when the boss was very low in health.

Or maybe a few of those 5 who died were bad players who were pushing and pulling the enemy away and out of AoE attacks of the other players and with those bad players gone, the actual DPS went up and they were able to kill it quickly.

Daddicus.6128:

Seera.5916:

3. Prior to this patch, reviving someone did not count one bit towards participation and if the fight is quick enough stopping to revive someone could cost them participation, especially if the person who stops to revive the player arrived late or doesn’t do as much damage as the others around them. This isn’t as big of an issue now that they do allow for support to count toward participation.

Yes, and that’s exactly why I put forth the question.

So because ANet didn’t give credit to reviving people for event participation, asking people to waypoint out instead of waiting for someone to revive them is an exploit……

Given that boss fights have been a mechanic since game release, surely if any of the things that are being suggested as an exploit here, would have actually been dealt with by ArenaNet if they considered them an exploit?

Daddicus.6128:

Please read before you embarrass yourself.

It’s not the armor that’s the problem. It’s the fact that if the strategy DOES work, people will employ it together, and kill bosses faster than they otherwise should (because when they WP out, the boss drops hit points, supposedly).
[…]
The problem is the people who believe the opposite, and plan on waypointing out if they die. That’s what I’m calling an exploit.

At this point, you have to be intentionally trolling. What you are saying doesn’t even make any sense. Then again, you set your premise in stone that such an exploit exists and what should be done about it.

Event scaling works at something like 2000-3000 units range (you can observe this easily with event chains like the Eye of Zhaitan escort preevent and the amount and strength of mobs that spawn because it has awful scaling, it scales up even if the players do nothing at range).
So the people are in the event zone, scale it up, use their superhaxy exploit powers of playing a glass cannon, die, port (spending quite some money if they do it over and over) and don’t do any damage while they are running back. And that’s if we assume events/mobs scale back that quickly. And that other players are there to hold the aggro so the mob doesn’t reset.

And somehow that’s an exploit.

10/10 I’m actually mad about how asinine this is and still responded.

No it’s not an exploit; every time u die u lose durability, and pay waypoint fees… All for a few lousy green/blue items…maybe a rare worth 25silver…

What you call an exploit I call a gold synch for the stupid….and I’m ok with it (even if it is technically a pay to win scenario).

You’re also forgetting that there’s a respawn delay just for such things.. (At least when the new tequatl came out it was there)

I don’t think wp cheesing is as prevalent as you think and most glass cannons learn to stay alive or adapt to the fight difficulty with different gear (I.e get better or get Knights)

Some of the living world achievements are horrible in glass.. But add some dolyak runes and a little pvt gear and they become much easier…but if someone can stay on their feet in glass why force them into gear that doesn’t jibe with their play style? What’s the point of making them tanky so they can take a hit if they can avoid getting hit in the first place and dump more damage out in the process? The way it is now generally rewards skilled play, but also is horribly unforgiving of mistakes in glass gear.

Daddicus.6128:

Palador.2170:

But it DOESN’T work, and that’s why it’s not an exploit.

The vast majority of posters here disagree with you. They’re the ones who say “when fully dead, waypoint out and run back”. And, they claim to have all kinds of data to support that argument.

I don’t agree with them, but this thread is to determine whether, if it DOES work, SHOULD it work?

NOTE: There are people who won’t rez dead people because of this effect. So, there’s a very real effect in-game, regardless of whether it is true or not.

Here, have an anecdote which demonstrates why people do not rez fully dead people during large events.

I lead a lane in Dragon’s Stand, and we reach the Blighting Tower. The group of people circling the tower tries to get downed people up, but tells dead people to use the waypoint.

Why do I tell them to do that? In that event the group is constantly ticking damage and must sustain themselves. If someone dies and waits to be rez’d – chances are if people try to help, they’re gonna end up dead too. I think the people who want to succeed would rather lose 1 person who refuses to waypoint, than 1-5 people who died trying to get that 1 person up.

Common sense is an exploit now? Okay, at least your account is safe then.

Daddicus.6128:

The problem is the people who believe the opposite, and plan on waypointing out if they die. That’s what I’m calling an exploit.

You are mistaken. Anet specifically encourages people to waypoint out if they die. If the company not only says that it is OK to do so but actually directs you to do so it cannot be an exploit.

…I dispute that ‘Glass Cannons’ even EXIST.

The on-demand invulnerability this game affords all characters has such incredible — nay, ridiculous — uptime vs. the incredibly slow attack tempo of most PvE threats that you can’t be a glass cannon no matter how hard you try. Further, the game’s real work horse defenses… not Vitality and Toughness, but Blind and Aegis don’t scale with stats at all, so there’s only very limited ways to gear towards defense through stats. You can buy screw-up insurance with a larger health bar and a bit more mitigation, but it’s always more efficient to not screw up in the first place.

DPS and moar DPS is about the only useful place to put your stat points.

Nike.2631:

…I dispute that ‘Glass Cannons’ even EXIST.

I completely understand your point, but I disagree slightly. I’d argue that glass cannons DO exist, but are dependent more on the class than gear. Take a meta staff ele for example. That deals a tonne of damage, but will fall over in a slight breeze. That qualifies as a glass cannon. However, for warriors, guardians, revenants, and necros I agree with you, it would be difficult to ever truly see these as glass cannons, even specced purely for damage since, as you said, mechanics other than gear stats (not including base stats) do the bulk of the defensive work in the game.

Daddicus.6128:

Ashen.2907:

When forum posters complained about players lying dead rather than waypointing Anet commented that their dynamic scaling paid attention to active participation, not just proximity to the encounter. Supposedly, dead and/or AFK characters do not continue to affect encounter scaling.

That may be (I actually believe you are correct).

The problem is the people who believe the opposite, and plan on waypointing out if they die. That’s what I’m calling an exploit.

That’s an untrue claim, by the way. Events most definitely do not scale on active participants alone, anyone who has had to deal with upscaled mobs at Vinewrath because of AFKers (or had to blow up the gate at Taidha, or had to carry leechers back in LS1, or wanted to spawn 12 champs at the Krait Lab event in Sparkfly Fen, etc. etc.) can tell you as much.

Anyone who claims otherwise is simply mistaken and should pay attention to how the game actually works rather than vague recollections of statements that might have been made in the past.

Daddicus.6128:

Harper.4173:

1 person dies – and waypoints out – boss scales for 9 people.
The dead person comes back and resumes the fight – boss scales for 10 people again.

But, if 5 people die and WP out, they’ve done enough damage already that the boss dies quickly with the 5 remaining. THAT is the exploit. I’ve seen it happen more than once.

Do you understand percentages? Also – it is not an exploit.

Daddicus.6128:

Harper.4173:

1 person dies – and waypoints out – boss scales for 9 people.
The dead person comes back and resumes the fight – boss scales for 10 people again.

But, if 5 people die and WP out, they’ve done enough damage already that the boss dies quickly with the 5 remaining. THAT is the exploit. I’ve seen it happen more than once.

Go read up on how scaling works. That example is just reeking of wrong.

Nike.2631:

…I dispute that ‘Glass Cannons’ even EXIST.

The on-demand invulnerability this game affords all characters has such incredible — nay, ridiculous — uptime vs. the incredibly slow attack tempo of most PvE threats that you can’t be a glass cannon no matter how hard you try. Further, the game’s real work horse defenses… not Vitality and Toughness, but Blind and Aegis don’t scale with stats at all, so there’s only very limited ways to gear towards defense through stats. You can buy screw-up insurance with a larger health bar and a bit more mitigation, but it’s always more efficient to not screw up in the first place.

DPS and moar DPS is about the only useful place to put your stat points.

Sadly this is true. Even if you ignore defense completely you’re not suffering for it because being struck isn’t a legitimate requirement. You don’t ever have to trade blows with an enemy if you are playing correctly. Upsetting.

Cameron.6450:

I completely understand your point, but I disagree slightly. I’d argue that glass cannons DO exist, but are dependent more on the class than gear. Take a meta staff ele for example. That deals a tonne of damage, but will fall over in a slight breeze. That qualifies as a glass cannon. However, for warriors, guardians, revenants, and necros I agree with you, it would be difficult to ever truly see these as glass cannons, even specced purely for damage since, as you said, mechanics other than gear stats (not including base stats) do the bulk of the defensive work in the game.

I would say that Glass Cannon is all about player choice and players don’t choose the base stats of the classes which are all the same. Saying an ele has lower armor is actually saying that light armor is weaker defensively than heavy armor. It has nothing to do with the choice to play Elementalist and everything to do with things outside of player control.

GC isn’t a thing in this case. I mean unless you argue that bruisers and glass cannons are the same thing with just different armor ratings.

Funniest thread in a while. If this was an exploit you would have to gain something. You don’t, as after doing a “death rush” you will most likely have to WP to fix your armor then waypoint back. Also if a mob is OOC for long enough they regen. So I really don’t see this being a thing. As in open world most “boss” mobs are no where near a WP, same for HC’s. So you need someone to be in combat with them to keep them from regen. So I really don’t see a problem with it.

The OP is still hung up on two points that are already well-established:

• Death rushing isn’t specific to glass canon builds — anyone can use it in the open world.
• ANet doesn’t care — they have specifically mentioned the tactic (not by name) and added hard counters to it for instanced content (notably: raids and the HoT story’s final fight), added soft counters to it for some (but not all) boss fights (long distances between WPs and fights in HoT, silverwastes), and left available the possibility in most of the rest of the game (including, notably, the revamped Shattererererererererer fight).

Why is it an exploit if you do it as a glass cannon and not if you do the exact same thing on a tankier build. Its not an exploit if its working as intended. Stupid question is stupid because the answer is obvious. This is just a troll post to kitten about glass cannons AKA berserker gear. I wear glass canon gear on most of my characters( the 2 with ascended wear full celestial the others all wear berzerker) I can do any group content with out dying and when the odd thing kills me, it kills me regardless of gear. For example the the MK Golem world boss, sometimes his electricity catches you and even in full PTV or CDTV you die. Which is why I have switched to DPS gear, if something is going to kill you anyways you might as well build for DPS to kill faster and take reduced damage that way and rely on player skill for the big stuff.

Not sure why I even reply to this. If you don’t like berserker gear then do not use and please stop worrying about how other people play. It doesn’t affect you, this game isn’t SWG were you or your group have to out damage others to gain loot rights. Other people’s play style can only affect you mentally if you allow it in PVE. In no other way does another person’s playstyle affect you in PVE.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The OP is still hung up on two points that are already well-established:

• Death rushing isn’t specific to glass canon builds — anyone can use it in the open world.
• ANet doesn’t care — they have specifically mentioned the tactic (not by name) and added hard counters to it for instanced content (notably: raids and the HoT story’s final fight), added soft counters to it for some (but not all) boss fights (long distances between WPs and fights in HoT, silverwastes), and left available the possibility in most of the rest of the game (including, notably, the revamped Shattererererererererer fight).

Also increased the distance from the nearest WP for Tequatl by making Splintered Coast Waypoint contested.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The OP is still hung up on two points that are already well-established:

• Death rushing isn’t specific to glass canon builds — anyone can use it in the open world.
• ANet doesn’t care — they have specifically mentioned the tactic (not by name) and added hard counters to it for instanced content (notably: raids and the HoT story’s final fight), added soft counters to it for some (but not all) boss fights (long distances between WPs and fights in HoT, silverwastes), and left available the possibility in most of the rest of the game (including, notably, the revamped Shattererererererererer fight).

I think you missed a third point.

• only people in glass cannon gear die which is not true but OP seems to be implying it from the first post

Khisanth.2948:

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The OP is still hung up on two points that are already well-established:

• Death rushing isn’t specific to glass canon builds — anyone can use it in the open world.
• ANet doesn’t care — they have specifically mentioned the tactic (not by name) and added hard counters to it for instanced content (notably: raids and the HoT story’s final fight), added soft counters to it for some (but not all) boss fights (long distances between WPs and fights in HoT, silverwastes), and left available the possibility in most of the rest of the game (including, notably, the revamped Shattererererererererer fight).

I think you missed a third point.

• only people in glass cannon gear die which is not true but OP seems to be implying it from the first post

Ah, maybe I should have added that. I was hoping that was included in my first point: it’s got nothing to do with glass canon; it’s a function of those who haven’t embraced active defense, not of the gear.

Khisanth.2948:

Also increased the distance from the nearest WP for Tequatl by making Splintered Coast Waypoint contested.

Indeed they did; good point.

The only place you can run back from a waypoint after dying is in the open world, where nothing is challenging enough to care in the first place. if someone wants to invest entirely too much silver and time in waypoints because they’re horrible at the game, let them.

It doesn’t work where there’s an implied risk/reward for killing the boss “properly” in places like dungeons, fractals, or raids, where the idea is that individual skill is important. it’s only a thing that happens in the open world, where the game is more about group organization and individual skill isn’t supposed to be as important as getting enough people on each mechanic.

Yes more blanket statements please. Can’t have enough of them

Daddicus.6128:

Palador.2170:

But it DOESN’T work, and that’s why it’s not an exploit.

The vast majority of posters here disagree with you. They’re the ones who say “when fully dead, waypoint out and run back”. And, they claim to have all kinds of data to support that argument.

I don’t agree with them, but this thread is to determine whether, if it DOES work, SHOULD it work?

NOTE: There are people who won’t rez dead people because of this effect. So, there’s a very real effect in-game, regardless of whether it is true or not.

People tell you to run back when fully dead because trying to rez fully dead people often results in the rezzers ending up dead, which can lead to a total wipe in very sort order.
Even excluding the risk to the rezzers on some fights such as tequatl it simply isn’t possible to rez people as fast as people die.

Rezzing from downstate is about the only time people should be rezzing while in combat, the exception being if there is a lull between fight phases.

Coulter.2315:

They are telling people who die to the boss not to wait for a res because its faster and safer for those that are fighting for the corpses to WP and respawn, they are not calling out parts of a exploiting strategy xD

I am genuinely shocked you couldn’t put this together with your own brain (like really shocked, astounded, flabbergasted, jaw-on-the-floor can’t believe it).

Way ahead of you, actually.

TexZero.7910:

Since you think i’m treating you like an idiot for pointing out the obvious let me simplify it for you even more.

What gain is there for dying and running back. Each waypoint cost both time and money. Excessive waypointing can lead to cost above what you would potentially net from killing the boss or a lack of event credit. Therefore it cannot possibly be an exploit per definition of the word.

Again, you’re missing the whole point. Look above this post, and count how many people have said it’s a good idea. I’ve already said I don’t believe they are correct.

But the fact that that’s the way many people play makes glass cannons a legitimate build (to them). They hope they live, but if they don’t, no big loss. Just WP.

And, it’s a large majority of players who hold that position. So, if EVERYBODY runs a glass cannon, … well you figure it out.

slpr.2647:

this was put in because of the new healer classes. I myself run a Druid, and with my full druid setup, don’t do a lot of dmg, I try to keep ppl alive, either with heals or rez’s.
so they added the rewards for these classes so we still get credit

It doesn’t matter WHY it was put it. The point is that it favors reviving people. Before they did this, except in specialized content (like the raids and certain bosses), practically everybody runs some variant of a glass cannon.

Look at the threads on the classes where people ask what kind of build is good. Without exception, berserker is near the head of the pack – for all professions. Why? Because glass cannons WORK. And that’s my point.

Daddicus.6128:

slpr.2647:

this was put in because of the new healer classes. I myself run a Druid, and with my full druid setup, don’t do a lot of dmg, I try to keep ppl alive, either with heals or rez’s.
so they added the rewards for these classes so we still get credit

It doesn’t matter WHY it was put it. The point is that it favors reviving people. Before they did this, except in specialized content (like the raids and certain bosses), practically everybody runs some variant of a glass cannon.

Look at the threads on the classes where people ask what kind of build is good. Without exception, berserker is near the head of the pack – for all professions. Why? Because glass cannons WORK. And that’s my point.

Okay. Glass cannons work. No argument there. So… conversation done?

malachi.7503:

I’m confused, is your scenario meant to imply that when I die from a encounter I should lay there and wait around for someone to come revive me? My understanding is that when I die, that little message pops up and says “use waypoint” and I do. I play solo alot and do die occasionally, using a waypoint allows me to get back to playing the game.
Perhaps I’m not understanding what you are asking.
As to grouping, I’ve noticed that when we encounter various world mobs the waypoints near the mob are blocked for the duration of the encounter. If its a large group it does make sense to wait for revival, but in some cases to me it makes more sense to run back to the fight from waypoint rather than force group members to stop combat to help me up. Again though, perhaps I’m not understanding your question properly.

The strategy works solo by keeping the enemy count down. But, that’s just good playing, and a tank could do the same with larger groups; he would just take longer.

I’m thinking mostly of group events and boss fights.

Cameron.6450:

There’s also the fact that picking up ice bows and fiery greatswords is a lot more painful when there’s a bunch of dead bodies lying around that you might start ressing by accident.

People calling for dead to wp is simply just because people being dead on the ground are irritating to everyone still alive, and don’t contribute anything. Not because it’s an attempt to game the system in some way.

Most who do it claim it reduces the enemy’kitten points when the dead WP out. So, yes, they are indeed trying to game the system; they’ll even say so, sometimes quite loudly. They wouldn’t CALL it gaming the system, but that’s exactly what it is.

And, the glass cannon plays right into the model. Go in, do a large amount of damage, hoping to live by overwhelming the enemy. If there are enough doing high damage like that, it works. But, if the character does die, he just WPs, thus reducing the enemy’s HP. The claim is it happens in 2-3 seconds.

Daddicus.6128:

slpr.2647:

this was put in because of the new healer classes. I myself run a Druid, and with my full druid setup, don’t do a lot of dmg, I try to keep ppl alive, either with heals or rez’s.
so they added the rewards for these classes so we still get credit

It doesn’t matter WHY it was put it. The point is that it favors reviving people. Before they did this, except in specialized content (like the raids and certain bosses), practically everybody runs some variant of a glass cannon.

Look at the threads on the classes where people ask what kind of build is good. Without exception, berserker is near the head of the pack – for all professions. Why? Because glass cannons WORK. And that’s my point.

And why is that a problem?

Did you miss the players who posted threads asking for ANet to put in event credit support for players who heal or revive or give out boons or remove conditions or otherwise participate in some quantifiable way but aren’t attacking the boss directly? That were posted prior to HoT’s launch and prior to HoT even being announced?

ANet finally figured out how to do so and so did so.

That does not suddenly make WP’ing out when you die and run back to a group event/boss an exploit.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Why would it be an exploit for a glass character to die, then WP and run back but, since you single out glass gear, it would presumably not be an exploit for a character geared differently?

Glass gear is what makes it viable. And, since a very large percentage of the population runs such gear, I’m not out in left field on this. I doubt many would admit it in the terminology I’m using, but it’s true nonetheless.

Personally, I never WP out, except at the Inquest Golem II. And I always revive or rally allies when I notice them, provided we’re not at a critical point in the battle (like the last 10 seconds).

Come to think of it, waypointing is itself an exploit. You don’t see the natives doing it. They’re forced to walk around everywhere. We’re subverting Tyrian society and flaunting the immigration laws of the various regions by teleporting in and out without going through the TSA (Tyrian Security Administration) checkpoints.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I don’t think there’s really anything to discuss: if ANet cared about this for open world content, they would have acted to deal with it already. Further, I think the OP has confused the issue by making it about the build, when it’s a technique that is stat-independent.
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I’m going to restate the OP’s question, because I don’t accept the premise: this has nothing to do with glass cannon builds. The tactic the OP wants to discuss is sometimes called “death rushing”, in which team members attack a target close to a waypoint and, if they die, they use the WP and return to battle ASAP.

We know ANet’s stance on this from GW1: it was perfectly acceptable (if odd) to use this to level characters in pre-Searing to L20 (I over-simplify the process) and to train pets in post-Searing. We know ANet’s stance on it for dungeons: they prevent it (rather than call it an exploit) by disabling waypoints in instances and take steps to ensure foes reset if the party dies.

We can therefore speculate as to their attitude for open-world content in GW2: they don’t care — if they did, they would make it harder to death rush and increase the penalties. Since they have done so for instances and not for open world, we can presume that it doesn’t matter much to them. Ergo, not an exploit.

The discussion of glass canon builds is a red herring and moot: you can do this regardless of your spec. In fact, I know of guilds using this technique against certain bounties, because they know their members lack the DPS to defeat specific foes any other way.

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tl;dr I don’t see an exploit, I’m 99% sure that ANet doesn’t either, and this has nothing to do with glass canon.

You could be right. It may be more gear-independent than I’m thinking. And, I like the term death-rush. It fits well with what I see as the problem.

The problem is that the meta for builds has leaned heavily towards maximizing damage. Couple that with the very-prevalent attitude that you should WP if you die (fighing a mob or boss), and it creates a problem (IMO).

Now, I used to argue the point a lot, but few were changing their minds, so I moved on. But, the recent change to incorporate reviving (along with healing, etc.) into items that tag an event changed the playing field. So, I thought I would broach the subject again.

maddoctor.2738:

And non- glass cannons can’t do this?

See my previous post.

maddoctor.2738:

I see this as a not so cleverly disguised “I hate the zerker meta” thread.

Very true. But, not disguised at all, or at least not my intention.

NumenorLord.6539:

You know what else is an exploit? Those tricky players that use armor with high toughness and vitality stats… How dare they? Monsters are supposed to kill you, when you make a tanky character you are cheating because you are not dying when you get hit. Exploiterzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!

But, there’s a high cost to pay (at least for most gamers): It takes a lot longer to kill things.

So, you have inadvertently made my point for me. The fact that it would be absurd to call this an exploit is intended to ridicule my main idea. But, it does NOT, because the cost a glass cannon pays is something many people expect him to pay anyhow (all the ones who say “WP when fully dead”). Put those two together, and that’s what makes it (IMO) an exploit.

Healix.5819:

Originally, scaling was different, but it was changed at some point during season 1. Back then, scaling occurred every few seconds and only active players were factored. Basically, you had to be in combat to count. The problem however was that it was easily exploited and with the zerg design of season 1, became more of a problem. Large groups would destroy the target before it actually scaled.

Exactly.

penelopehannibal.8947:

Waypoints cost money, so I don’t consider this tactic an exploit. Your suggestion sounds like the strategy of someone doing a Guild Bounty Hunt Mission to me. A strategy which many guilds, mostly smaller ones, would use.

I hadn’t thought of that, but yes, that is a good example. If all of the people doing a guild mission were glass cannons, they might very well kill the boss before the boss could kill any of them.

Now, is that good strategy, or an exploit? Or, neither? I’m sensing most of the posters on this thread would opt for good strategy or neither.

Old Wiki Entry:

“Events scale both up and down according to the number of players who are currently participating. Events can scale in a number of ways:
Enemy stats can be increased
Enemies can gain new abilities
New enemy types may appear, including veterans or even champion versions
Enemy count can be increased
Objective requirements may increase
Most events scale for up to 10 players.Group events and large scale events such as the finale for meta events will scale much higher. For example, The Shatterer scales up to 100 players. *Events can detect that players have not performed any actions relating to the event within a period of time and will scale down the event accordingly.”*
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New Wiki entry:

“an event will scale dynamically based on the number of active participants…”

Events scale both up and down according to the number of players who are currently participating. ³ Events can scale in a number of ways:

Enemy stats can be increased
Enemies can gain new abilities
New enemy types may appear, including veterans, elites, or even champion versions
Enemy count can be increased
Objective requirements may increase
Most events scale for up to 10 players.⁴ Group events and large scale events such as the finale for meta events will scale much higher. For example, The Shatterer scales up to 100 players.⁵

Events will scale according to the number of players around. Even a player that is not participating will scale the event up. A player that moves away, either by walking or waypointing, will immediately scale the event down."

Some conflict between the old entry and the new as well as internally within the newer entry. Even so the following Reddit post seems to support the idea that active participation is not required to scale an event/boss up:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/38pdks/controlled_event_scaling_test

Still, doing something that the designers and owners of the game have actually spent time and money actively encouraging you to do, actually instructing you to waypoint out after death, is not, and cannot be, and exploit by the very definition of the term.

Seera.5916:

So because ANet didn’t give credit to reviving people for event participation, asking people to waypoint out instead of waiting for someone to revive them is an exploit……

Yup.

penelopehannibal.8947:

Given that boss fights have been a mechanic since game release, surely if any of the things that are being suggested as an exploit here, would have actually been dealt with by ArenaNet if they considered them an exploit?

That’s probably the best argument against my position, and several have made it. It’s why I stopped arguing about it months ago.

It’s the change in what counts as tagging a boss or event that I think makes it clear. But, obviously, I’m in the minority.

Ashen.2907:

You are mistaken. Anet specifically encourages people to waypoint out if they die. If the company not only says that it is OK to do so but actually directs you to do so it cannot be an exploit.

Source?

Daddicus.6128:

TexZero.7910:

Since you think i’m treating you like an idiot for pointing out the obvious let me simplify it for you even more.

What gain is there for dying and running back. Each waypoint cost both time and money. Excessive waypointing can lead to cost above what you would potentially net from killing the boss or a lack of event credit. Therefore it cannot possibly be an exploit per definition of the word.

Again, you’re missing the whole point. Look above this post, and count how many people have said it’s a good idea. I’ve already said I don’t believe they are correct.

But the fact that that’s the way many people play makes glass cannons a legitimate build (to them). They hope they live, but if they don’t, no big loss. Just WP.

And, it’s a large majority of players who hold that position. So, if EVERYBODY runs a glass cannon, … well you figure it out.

You’re missing the point because frankly you want to.

Stats arent the problem. It’s still not an exploit to utilize the tools provided to you such as waypoints. Since this is aimed specifically at world bosses (LOOT PINATA’S), they handle any claim of exploiting by dynamically scalling.

QED – You’re wrong.