Guild Wars 2

This thread is also an continuation of https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/35#post4875451

In that topic Colin explained their no-grind philosophy. Basically saying with there no-grind-philosophy they simply tried to prevent ‘required’ grind (something that does not really exist in a optional thing as a game) and they wanted to give people multiple ways to get something so as long as that was possible it was oke. At the same time acknowledging that there was indeed grind in the game and that it could be improved.

The subject in this thread however is that grind is still grind. No matter if I grind for an ‘optional’ cosmetic item of for an ‘optional’ stats items to be able to do a dungeon (that some people then do not consider optional). Also no matter if I can grind for gold or some other currency in 5 ways, I am still grinding that currency instead of working directly towards getting that item (Like you have with an items like Liadri).

People experience this grind no matter if it’s the grind Anet does, or does not try to prevent with there ‘no-grind-philosophy’ and then start to consider the game boring. If enough people have this then it is a problem for the game.

Now I would basically like to continue the “No-Grind-philosophy” thread from here on but looking at it from this different perspective (grind is grind and that is a problem) in stead of focusing on the ‘no-grind-philosophy’

—

Lets not talk about who lied and why and who can proof it because as I see it its not one answer.
Also that gives admin a good bad excuse to close a thread.

While it is an important thread and Anet closing it’s eyes for this problem by closing the thread is the worse they can do.

Multiple people at the company probably did want to make the game they talked about but partly that just failed because things did not work out the way they hoped and partly because monetize people got a say in the game-development and there focus is on getting people to buy gems, not to create the best game. Eventually you then end up with something else then you envisioned.

The thread can be better be used to talk about how it can be approved. How to move in the better direction again for the HoT release, because if it doesn’t imho that is going to be a big problem for Anet. People will not keep coming back if they keep being disappointed.

That is also why I do not get the people rushing in these thread to defend the grind by saying it’s optional or it’s not that bad. It’s not bad for them, but that does not mean it’s also not bad for many other people, if it wasn’t, threads like this one would not exist.

Lets take the World completion change as an example. Soon you will not need to have WvW maps completed anymore. For me however the problem with map-completion is the mechanic.. running from PoI to Vista, to heart to waypoint. Striping of a boring list. I will explore maps but will not start striping of this list (while needed if I want to get a legendary… or I grind gold for it and buy it of-course). This results in me still not having world completion. However the WvW maps for me personal where never a big problem, in fact while not having world completion I do have WvW completion on multiple characters.

And while I might bring up this boring mechanic of the world completion once in a while I will not now run into the forums to say the WvW maps are not a problem and should stay in word completion. No, because while for me they are not a problem I know they are a problem for other people. But then why do other people feel the need to come in threads like this and try to defend or ignore the grind that also a lot of people do experience? Maybe it’s not a problem for you but it is for many other people.

So it would be much better to find a solution then to try and defend it because you personally do not have a problem with it. And for Anet, they did show they are willing to improve on parts where many people complain about.. The trouble with this grindy gameplay however is that is directly hits there monetization so that will be a little harder to change (politic wise). But a new expansion would be the perfect moment to do something about it.

Not this again…

1. Post in that thread then if you want to continue it, why make a new one?
2. Grind for cosmetic items is optional
3. No, I did not read your post
4. /thread

Bubi.7942:

Not this again…

1. Post in that thread then if you want to continue it, why make a new one?
2. Grind for cosmetic items is optional
3. No, I did not read your post
4. /thread

That thread was closed.

Grind is different from optional grind though. If you say have to grind to level, it’s different than if you don’t have to.

I even felt like I was grinding in Guild Wars 1, capping all the elite skills. But it wasn’t actually grind. I was killing different bosses in different areas all the time. It just felt like a grind. That was far more necessary from a gameplay perspective than the grind in this game.

No I don’t agree. I don’t think all grind is equal.

All grind of any sort in any game is optional. I guess the OP’s point is that he would like a discussion about how to reduce grind and increase fun rather than a focus on whether or not one person’s optional grind is acceptible while another’s is not.

Vayne.8563:

Grind is different from optional grind though. If you say have to grind to level, it’s different than if you don’t have to.

I even felt like I was grinding in Guild Wars 1, capping all the elite skills. But it wasn’t actually grind. I was killing different bosses in different areas all the time. It just felt like a grind. That was far more necessary from a gameplay perspective than the grind in this game.

No I don’t agree. I don’t think all grind is equal.

But what is optional.

The so called ‘required’ grind in many other games like WoW was never required for me because I did not want to do the highest lever raids. So does that not make it optional?

Yes and no.. it was optional for me because I did not feel the need to do those raids. I however do feel like getting those cosmetics so if I would want to do that in GW2 the grind is required for me.

It just depends on what you like to do if it’s option for you. However it’s both not ‘required’ in general.

So when you say that is required and this is not it only means you feel the need to be able to do those highest level raids while you do not feel the need to get the cosmetics. Thats personal.

But for the people who like to hunt for the item, grind is grind.

Bubi.7942:

Not this again…

1. Post in that thread then if you want to continue it, why make a new one?
2. Grind for cosmetic items is optional
3. No, I did not read your post
4. /thread

If you do not feel the need to read, then also do not post your unfounded (not based on what was said, as you did not read it) comment.

Ashen.2907:

All grind of any sort in any game is optional. I guess the OP’s point is that he would like a discussion about how to reduce grind and increase fun rather than a focus on whether or not one person’s optional grind is acceptible while another’s is not.

That is indeed the target, while for that people have to accept that indeed one person’s ‘optional’ grind is acceptable while another’s is not.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Grind is different from optional grind though. If you say have to grind to level, it’s different than if you don’t have to.

I even felt like I was grinding in Guild Wars 1, capping all the elite skills. But it wasn’t actually grind. I was killing different bosses in different areas all the time. It just felt like a grind. That was far more necessary from a gameplay perspective than the grind in this game.

No I don’t agree. I don’t think all grind is equal.

But what is optional.

Not all grind is equal. There is optional and required grind.

Optional Grind is grind that does not give you access to any type of content, only gives you some extra pretty skins.

Required grind is grind that prevents you from doing specific content before you finish it first.

Even if someone says they don’t do the content that requires the grind, maybe they don’t do it BECAUSE there is a grind involved? If there was no grind-gated content, maybe more people would actually play that type of content?

Even if you don’t play it, it’s still content that exists in the game and you can’t access before doing the mandatory grind for it.

Anet did NOT say “the game has NO grind at all” they know there is ( they made the game. lol) however, they said you don’t have to do it.

I did not read the whole thing but here are my thoughts on this topic in general:
the reason they took WvW map completion from the 100% world completion is because many servers are stuck vs way stronger servers, and never get a chance to do the WvW map completion, so that’s not something they are changing about the ‘Grind’ in the game rather its a fix for a problem.

take away the grind and make the game grind free!, everyone get dungeon master because they played the dungeon once and just for playing the game for 100 hours lets give you a legendary(that a grind for hours though) and lets not reward players who played the game days in and days out and invested many hours of game play and make em just like everyone who played the game for 3 days and quit, no more special skins for fractal grinders who played them for 100’s of hours to get that lame underwater skin that no one ever see and make it once you play an underwater fractal you automatically get the skin, and once you finish all fractals you get the fractal tonic that only a hand full of players have ATM, and once you kill a player in WvW you get the “ultimate dominator” title and kill a player in PvP and get dragon rank and finisher, I think you know where im going with this.
if you don’t want a ‘grind’ in a game maybe you should be playing a single player game not an MMORPG

All MMOs have grind in some way or form, there is no way around it. The challenge for the developers is to try to hide the grind as much as possible and make it less apparent and less boring. In my opinion, WoW did a good job at this. In my opinion, GW2 did not.

Unless you dislike doing challenging raids or engaging questlines to unlock said raids, WoW’s grind was not that bad. When I played it I actually looked forward to gettng home, turning on my PC, getting on WoW and doing the planned raid(s) with my guild. It was challenging, fun and the rewards were good.

In GW2 I had that same feeling only a few times: The first time doing dungeons (when everyone thought they were hard), when Tequatl first got updated, when the Twisted Marionette was introduced, when Triple Trouble was introduced and the first few times of doing The Silverwastes.

I absolutely loved grinding those bosses each day, sometimes multiple attempts per day! Why? Because these fights where challenging, engaging and of the same quality as WoW raids. The fun was not in getting the rewards either, the fun was in knowing you could fail but if you didn’t you’d get rewarded decently for it.

Flash-forward to now and I don’t enjoy any of the above-mentioned content anymore. Why? Because it became too easy and got reduced to farm-status (a term used by MMO players to indicate it’s a sure and easy win and you’ll get your little reward with little effort).

And here is the real problem. Farming is the worst kind of grind. It is absolutely boring and mind-numbing. And pretty much all PvE content got reduced to farm-status. The only reason to do any of the above mentioned content now is for the rewards.

And here is another problem. The rewards for doing anything remotely fun in GW2 are lackluster and not worthwhile. I get no fun out of doing a farm-status boss for a hand full of silver and one or two rares, especially not when I know I can make thirty times as much by doing a real actual farm (ToT bag farm in Bloodtide Coast).

GW2’s biggest problem is that almost everything can be bought with gold and the most efficient way to get that gold is by doing incredibly boring farm (be it a dungeon speedrun train, a world-boss train, ToT bag farm or farming Silverwastes, they’re all farm-status now) and we just established that farming is the worst kind of grind.

It basically comes down to: You want something? You’ll have to farm for it.

This problem isn’t exclusive to GW2 but it’s most apparent in GW2 because of 2 reasons:

1) Everything can (and sometimes must) be bought with gold and the only effective way of getting that gold is doing some kind of farm.

2) Almost all rewarding PvE content in GW2 has been reduced to farm-status and Anet does not give us enough new content to challenge and engage us again.

The expansion pack we’re finally getting is long overdue and I truly hope that HoT will introduce some new challenging group content with decent rewards. That should surely make GW2 feel less grindy again.

But it will only be a matter of time before the HoT content will also be reduced to farm-status. Will Anet be ready with yet another expansion or some updates by the time that happens? Or will GW2 return to feeling super boring and grindy 6 months after the expansion?

Yes “grind is grind.” There is; however a difference between “required” and “optional.” Some would go so far as to say a very big difference.

Now, that said. I will point out that all games have grind. To one extent or another. If you are looking for a game with absolutely no grind, an MMO is not what you’re looking for. Even GW1 had grind. Both required and optional.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Yes “grind is grind.” There is; however a difference between “required” and “optional.” Some would go so far as to say a very big difference.

Now, that said. I will point out that all games have grind. To one extent or another. If you are looking for a game with absolutely no grind, an MMO is not what you’re looking for. Even GW1 had grind. Both required and optional.

You’re right. However, there are different levels of grind and I’d say the grind is worse in GW2 than than in other MMOs. Why? Well, I just explained that in a rather lengthy post above yours. Read it and give me your opinion on it.

Devata.6589:

That is also why I do not get the people rushing in these thread to defend the grind by saying it’s optional or it’s not that bad. It’s not bad for them, but that does not mean it’s also not bad for many other people, if it wasn’t, threads like this one would not exist.

The previous thread , started with ppl hating Achendant gear and you mounted up half the thread with :
‘’they should remove the gem store and create more x-packs , i am not a developer but they should make come true’’
Without understanding that LIVE UPDATES cost money ….
And you simply copy -paste the cash gained from the GTA and with the prediction that you envisioned other games falling …
While in reallity you said : ‘’make a game for the FREAKS and ppl will come . Make a game for casual and it might die ’’

What kind of envisioned is that ????

When i told you , that other ppl created an other thread about the hate of Achendant gear , and you should avoid bossing that thread too , you told me that you dont care about the gear ….
THE MAJORITY OF THE PPL HATING ONE THING and the majestic DEVATA dont want to grind gold …..
What part of the community are you represent ?
The more than more that left of the GRIND GOLD ?
While in all games , collecting gold comes naturally in any activity , you simply hate to push the CONVERSION bottun and buy that item in GW2 ?
So you played WowW for a lonmg time , but in here you found the problem with gold ?

Most mount and cosmetic items in WoWw , comes from Raids .
Now if you didnt do raids , then you waited till the next x-pack to solo the Raids .
That is collector Life ?
Then why you want moost gear in GW2 NOW ?
Most Limited collector items will show up again later this year too , so ofc you can w8

From tommorow , you shoudnt avoid my posts :P
I feel loneny and will make me sad …
And by having 1v1 , is most likely a thread to not be closed

Devata.6589:

The thread can be better be used to talk about how it can be approved. How to move in the better direction again for the HoT release, because if it doesn’t imho that is going to be a big problem for Anet. People will not keep coming back if they keep being disappointed.

Devata, your intentions are noble, but I don’t think your idea of reducing grind and increasing fun will happen.

ArenaNet has no reason to make it happen.

When people grind, they play through content they don’t even enjoy in order to get a reward. This reward can be anything – from just a monocromatic reskin of something already in the game with minor particle effects (aka luminescent armor) to just gold, since with gold they can get other rewards already in the game. In the specific case of GW2, this allows ArenaNet to release rewards mostly through the Gem Store, and allow people to grind for gold so they can buy gems and get those rewards (for armors and outfits), and for people to sell the rewards they get from the Gem Store to make gold (for weapons).

That setup is easy for ArenaNet. What options do they have? They could focus instead on making fun content, but “fun” is subjective – even if they did manage to make great and extremely polished content, some people would like it, and some would not. Of course, making it with great care would lead to more people liking it and less people not liking it, but it would still not be a 100% success. Add to it how finite this content would be – players go through fun content in a very small fraction of what it takes developers to make it.

So the best ArenaNet could have done would have been to release bursts of great, very polished content, knowing the playerbase would go through the content faster than they can deliver it, and hoping people would enjoy the content so much to the point of coming back when they release more, despite the lull in between. This is what they did with the original Guild Wars, mostly in the beginning of the game.

But that is a lot of work. And it’s a bit pointless, when they can do something far cheaper and still get a lot – if not more – people playing. When making grind, they don’t have to worry about making content fun. When making grind, they don’t really have to worry about making it polished. They can just give people stuff to grind for, and that’s it.

That’s the direction the game has been moving since release. Ascended equipment? Just one more reward for a lot of grind. Fractals of the Mist? Almost by definition this is grind, just repeating very few maps over and over. The Scarlet invasions? The same event repeating over and over across different maps, without any difference between the events. The Silverwastes? Copy and paste of the same fortresses with the same events through the entire map, with a strong lack of polish (why aren’t the new currencies in the wallet? What’s with the ugly yellow message spam in the middle of the screen?).

Yet a lot of people play the game this way. We know ArenaNet cares about the number of unique logins per day (they give people plenty of rewards for just logging in), so having a lot of people grinding is good for them.

ArenaNet does not have to bother making a good game. They can just make grind and people will play. That’s why they have no reason to make the game any less grindy than it is, and that’s why the expansion will likely be a lot of grind and very little of anything else.

Bahlol.6125:

Anet did NOT say “the game has NO grind at all” they know there is ( they made the game. lol) however, they said you don’t have to do it.

I did not read the whole thing but here are my thoughts on this topic in general:
the reason they took WvW map completion from the 100% world completion is because many servers are stuck vs way stronger servers, and never get a chance to do the WvW map completion, so that’s not something they are changing about the ‘Grind’ in the game rather its a fix for a problem.

take away the grind and make the game grind free!, everyone get dungeon master because they played the dungeon once and just for playing the game for 100 hours lets give you a legendary(that a grind for hours though) and lets not reward players who played the game days in and days out and invested many hours of game play and make em just like everyone who played the game for 3 days and quit, no more special skins for fractal grinders who played them for 100’s of hours to get that lame underwater skin that no one ever see and make it once you play an underwater fractal you automatically get the skin, and once you finish all fractals you get the fractal tonic that only a hand full of players have ATM, and once you kill a player in WvW you get the “ultimate dominator” title and kill a player in PvP and get dragon rank and finisher, I think you know where im going with this.
if you don’t want a ‘grind’ in a game maybe you should be playing a single player game not an MMORPG

I agree here. So many players are quick to complain about “grind”, its many interpretations, yet very few are taking a moment to think about what a game with no grind at all would be like. We would play it for a few days and then walk away from it. There would be nothing keeping us there.

Thankfully the grind in this game is entirely optional — whether people accept that or not.

Ashen.2907:

All grind of any sort in any game is optional. I guess the OP’s point is that he would like a discussion about how to reduce grind and increase fun rather than a focus on whether or not one person’s optional grind is acceptible while another’s is not.

Not if we talk about the chance to see all content in a game.

In a game like Lineage 2 (original version) the grind to get to max level was in no
way optional. In all raid-centric MMOs the grind is also not optional if you want
to see all raid zones.

Modern gamers…

Test.8734:

Devata.6589:

The thread can be better be used to talk about how it can be approved. How to move in the better direction again for the HoT release, because if it doesn’t imho that is going to be a big problem for Anet. People will not keep coming back if they keep being disappointed.

Devata, your intentions are noble, but I don’t think your idea of reducing grind and increasing fun will happen.

ArenaNet has no reason to make it happen.

When people grind, they play through content they don’t even enjoy in order to get a reward. This reward can be anything – from just a monocromatic reskin of something already in the game with minor particle effects (aka luminescent armor) to just gold, since with gold they can get other rewards already in the game. In the specific case of GW2, this allows ArenaNet to release rewards mostly through the Gem Store, and allow people to grind for gold so they can buy gems and get those rewards (for armors and outfits), and for people to sell the rewards they get from the Gem Store to make gold (for weapons).

That setup is easy for ArenaNet. What options do they have? They could focus instead on making fun content, but “fun” is subjective – even if they did manage to make great and extremely polished content, some people would like it, and some would not. Of course, making it with great care would lead to more people liking it and less people not liking it, but it would still not be a 100% success. Add to it how finite this content would be – players go through fun content in a very small fraction of what it takes developers to make it.

So the best ArenaNet could have done would have been to release bursts of great, very polished content, knowing the playerbase would go through the content faster than they can deliver it, and hoping people would enjoy the content so much to the point of coming back when they release more, despite the lull in between. This is what they did with the original Guild Wars, mostly in the beginning of the game.

But that is a lot of work. And it’s a bit pointless, when they can do something far cheaper and still get a lot – if not more – people playing. When making grind, they don’t have to worry about making content fun. When making grind, they don’t really have to worry about making it polished. They can just give people stuff to grind for, and that’s it.

That’s the direction the game has been moving since release. Ascended equipment? Just one more reward for a lot of grind. Fractals of the Mist? Almost by definition this is grind, just repeating very few maps over and over. The Scarlet invasions? The same event repeating over and over across different maps, without any difference between the events. The Silverwastes? Copy and paste of the same fortresses with the same events through the entire map, with a strong lack of polish (why aren’t the new currencies in the wallet? What’s with the ugly yellow message spam in the middle of the screen?).

Yet a lot of people play the game this way. We know ArenaNet cares about the number of unique logins per day (they give people plenty of rewards for just logging in), so having a lot of people grinding is good for them.

ArenaNet does not have to bother making a good game. They can just make grind and people will play. That’s why they have no reason to make the game any less grindy than it is, and that’s why the expansion will likely be a lot of grind and very little of anything else.

too much beef.
I agree they design grindy rewards, goals, but ehhhh
i think you are downplaying the quality of the content they designed.
fractals is pretty good, dungeons were somewhat interesting, marrionette was fun. Tower of nightmares, and attack on lions arch, not really my cup of tea, but pretty interesting in world sense. Dynamic event chains, actually generally pretty well designed, some more than others. Depth of the world, stories to find.

I want some more better content, i think their reward design doesnt do well to highlight the strong points of the game. But i wouldnt say they didnt design anything worthwhile, or that they just design grind.
On the contrary, i think the game has a lot more to offer than grind, I just think the way they incentivize play and highlight their content is pretty poor.

The rewards arent enhancing the game, they are taking away from it.

However, some of the ideas they are presenting in HoT MAY help this.
Focus on exploration
Adventures to highlight events/areas
Well integrated boss fights/enemies
transitioning from gold/item progression to experience/skill progression

however, its still up in the air, Anet has always had a tendency to pick really bad numbers for things. Still, I wouldnt be as grim. Provide feedback and ideas on how to improve the game, lessen grind increase fun, and reward interesting gameplay. Nothing really gained by doomsaying at this point.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Grind is different from optional grind though. If you say have to grind to level, it’s different than if you don’t have to.

I even felt like I was grinding in Guild Wars 1, capping all the elite skills. But it wasn’t actually grind. I was killing different bosses in different areas all the time. It just felt like a grind. That was far more necessary from a gameplay perspective than the grind in this game.

No I don’t agree. I don’t think all grind is equal.

But what is optional.

The so called ‘required’ grind in many other games like WoW was never required for me because I did not want to do the highest lever raids. So does then not make it optional?

Yes and no.. it was optional for me because I did feel the need to do those raids. I however do feel like getting those cosmetics so if I would want to do that in GW2 the grind is required for me.

It just depends on what you like to do if it’s option for your. However it’s both not ‘required’ in general.

So when you say that is required and this is not it only means you feel the need to be able to do those highest level raids while you do not feel the need to get the cosmetics. Thats person.

But for the people who like to hunt for the item, grind is grind.

If it’s gating content, it’s not optional to do content. Technically, you have to grind to do 50th level fractals here. However, you can still experience all fractals without doing the highest level of them without grinding.

And that’s all that’s really gated by gear here. Otherwise I can do every dungeon in the game, I can jump into WvW, I can PvP. This isn’t true of most games, and yes you do have to compare them because that’s what this conversation is really about.

Other games have required grinds because grinds gate content. Here, not so much.

Azhure.1857:

Bahlol.6125:

Anet did NOT say “the game has NO grind at all” they know there is ( they made the game. lol) however, they said you don’t have to do it.

I did not read the whole thing but here are my thoughts on this topic in general:
the reason they took WvW map completion from the 100% world completion is because many servers are stuck vs way stronger servers, and never get a chance to do the WvW map completion, so that’s not something they are changing about the ‘Grind’ in the game rather its a fix for a problem.

take away the grind and make the game grind free!, everyone get dungeon master because they played the dungeon once and just for playing the game for 100 hours lets give you a legendary(that a grind for hours though) and lets not reward players who played the game days in and days out and invested many hours of game play and make em just like everyone who played the game for 3 days and quit, no more special skins for fractal grinders who played them for 100’s of hours to get that lame underwater skin that no one ever see and make it once you play an underwater fractal you automatically get the skin, and once you finish all fractals you get the fractal tonic that only a hand full of players have ATM, and once you kill a player in WvW you get the “ultimate dominator” title and kill a player in PvP and get dragon rank and finisher, I think you know where im going with this.
if you don’t want a ‘grind’ in a game maybe you should be playing a single player game not an MMORPG

I agree here. So many players are quick to complain about “grind”, its many interpretations, yet very few are taking a moment to think about what a game with no grind at all would be like. We would play it for a few days and then walk away from it. There would be nothing keeping us there.

Thankfully the grind in this game is entirely optional — whether people accept that or not.

Just because you got beaten in other games in the past, doesnt mean you should look to be beaten again.

grind as most of you know it, and talked about in other games, is not the only way to design or handle things. Sure you want people to repeat things, but there is many ways to not make it become a grind.

This whole conversation is completely meaningless because everyone is using different definitions of what grind is. I don’t grind in this game. I don’t have to grind. I do a variety of activities and I can get what I want…I’ve done it all without grinding, including five legendaries. Yeah, it takes a lot longer my way, but it can be done.

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Grind is different from optional grind though. If you say have to grind to level, it’s different than if you don’t have to.

I even felt like I was grinding in Guild Wars 1, capping all the elite skills. But it wasn’t actually grind. I was killing different bosses in different areas all the time. It just felt like a grind. That was far more necessary from a gameplay perspective than the grind in this game.

No I don’t agree. I don’t think all grind is equal.

But what is optional.

Not all grind is equal. There is optional and required grind.

Optional Grind is grind that does not give you access to any type of content, only gives you some extra pretty skins.

Required grind is grind that prevents you from doing specific content before you finish it first.

Even if someone says they don’t do the content that requires the grind, maybe they don’t do it BECAUSE there is a grind involved? If there was no grind-gated content, maybe more people would actually play that type of content?

Even if you don’t play it, it’s still content that exists in the game and you can’t access before doing the mandatory grind for it.

“Not all grind is equal. There is optional and required grind.

Optional Grind is grind that does not give you access to any type of content, only gives you some extra pretty skins.”

It’s not all equal based on YOUR personal playstyle.

The grind for skins is for ME way, way, way worse then the grind for BiS gear that locks out the highest level raids as you see in games like WoW. Simply because hunting down skins is what I like to do and I don’t care for the highest level raids in WoW. Couldn’t care less about that and so couldn’t care less about BiS gear. Thats means to ME this grind is worse but to YOU that grind is worse.

So grind is only not equal depending on your personal play-style. There is NO general truth for what is worse.

Btw, you could just as well argue that in GW2 the content of hunting down kins is locked behind grind. I do not have access to that content.

Not to mention that in GW2 cosmetics is what it is all about while highest level raids is not. So basing it on the game the skin grind is maybe even worse then the BiS gear grind. Or other said, BiS gear in GW2 is the best skin, not the best stats.

“Even if someone says they don’t do the content that requires the grind, maybe they don’t do it BECAUSE there is a grind involved? ”
Thats possible. In GW2 I do not hunt down skins for that reason. While I would love to do that.

“If there was no grind-gated content, maybe more people would actually play that type of content?” Sure and so more people who play the game, so lets make that happen!

“Even if you don’t play it, it’s still content that exists in the game and you can’t access before doing the mandatory grind for it.”
Yeah just as you grind for skins in stead of hunting them down. Even if you don’t see it as an important element of this game.

Devata.6589:

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Grind is different from optional grind though. If you say have to grind to level, it’s different than if you don’t have to.

I even felt like I was grinding in Guild Wars 1, capping all the elite skills. But it wasn’t actually grind. I was killing different bosses in different areas all the time. It just felt like a grind. That was far more necessary from a gameplay perspective than the grind in this game.

No I don’t agree. I don’t think all grind is equal.

But what is optional.

Not all grind is equal. There is optional and required grind.

Optional Grind is grind that does not give you access to any type of content, only gives you some extra pretty skins.

Required grind is grind that prevents you from doing specific content before you finish it first.

Even if someone says they don’t do the content that requires the grind, maybe they don’t do it BECAUSE there is a grind involved? If there was no grind-gated content, maybe more people would actually play that type of content?

Even if you don’t play it, it’s still content that exists in the game and you can’t access before doing the mandatory grind for it.

“Not all grind is equal. There is optional and required grind.

Optional Grind is grind that does not give you access to any type of content, only gives you some extra pretty skins.”

It’s not all equal based on YOUR personal playstyle.

The grind for skins is for ME way, way, way worse then the grind for BiS gear that locks out the highest level raids as you see in games like WoW. Simply because hunting down skins is what I like to do and I don’t care for the highest level raids in WoW. Couldn’t care less about that and so couldn’t care less about BiS gear. Thats means to ME this grind is worse but to YOU that grind is worse.

So grind is only not equal depending on your personal play-style. There is NO general truth for what is worse.

Btw, you could just as well argue that in GW2 the content of hunting down kins is locked behind grind. I do not have access to that content.

Not to mention that in GW2 cosmetics is what it is all about while highest level raids is not. So basing it on the game the skin grind is maybe even worse then the BiS gear grind. Or other said, BiS gear in GW2 is the best skin, not the best stats.

“Even if someone says they don’t do the content that requires the grind, maybe they don’t do it BECAUSE there is a grind involved? ”
Thats possible. In GW2 I do not hunt down skins for that reason. While I would love to do that.

“If there was no grind-gated content, maybe more people would actually play that type of content?” Sure and so more people who play the game, so lets make that happen!

“Even if you don’t play it, it’s still content that exists in the game and you can’t access before doing the mandatory grind for it.”
Yeah just as you grind for skins in stead of hunting them down. Even if you don’t see it as an important element of this game.

So how do you go about making it so you can hunt them down. Give me a concrete example, because from my understanding, if they take away a grind and make it so you can just “hunt it down” you’ll attain it a lot faster, without grind. That leaves people with nothing to work towards at which point many people do leave games. Not to mention the obvious fact that once you have those skins without that grind what do you do then? Anet would have to make skins faster, or people would have nothing to do.

Vayne.8563:

This whole conversation is completely meaningless because everyone is using different definitions of what grind is. I don’t grind in this game. I don’t have to grind.

Just because you don’t call it grind, doesn’t mean it’s not grind. Your definition of grind is very… Colorful.

What we need here is clarity of terminology.
When I hear grind I think: repetitive mandatory activity
When I hear farming I think: repetitive optional activity

Now what is meant by mandatory and optional can be further clarified. In the context of GW2 I believe that the distinction can be made on grounds of content accessibility. Using this content accessibility we look at the requirements to access content and it presently takes 2 forms: level and gear. Leveling would be considered a grind, getting exotic gear would be a grind.

Ashen.2907:

I guess the OP’s point is that he would like a discussion about how to reduce grind and increase fun rather than a focus on whether or not one person’s optional grind is acceptible while another’s is not.

Fools errand (unless by ‘and’ you meant ‘or’). The only way to decrease grind is to increase content, unfortunately content production will always take longer than it would take to consume this content. What should be the focus is on removing the tedium of grind.

Devata.6589:

Yes and no.. it was optional for me because I did feel the need to do those raids. I however do feel like getting those cosmetics so if I would want to do that in GW2 the grind is required for me.

Just to clarify, WoW was optional because you wanted to do raids, and GW2 is not optional because you want to get the skins. Logic seems inconsistent. Unless you’re missing a not or two there.

Devata.6589:

That is indeed the target, while for that people have to accept that indeed one person’s ‘optional’ grind is acceptable while another’s is not.

I’m tell you, clarity of terminology is important.

maddoctor.2738:

Not all grind is equal. There is optional and required grind.

Like I previously said, I prefer grind and farming to distinguish the two.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

All MMOs have grind in some way or form, there is no way around it. The challenge for the developers is to try to hide the grind as much as possible and make it less apparent and less boring. In my opinion, WoW did a good job at this. In my opinion, GW2 did not.

I think its the difference in scope. WoW had it’s more apparent RNG in the raid. GW2 has RNG everywhere.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

And here is the real problem. Farming is the worst kind of grind. It is absolutely boring and mind-numbing. And pretty much all PvE content got reduced to farm-status. The only reason to do any of the above mentioned content now is for the rewards.

So I take it you’re taking the same definition of grind and farm as me then?

phys.7689:

grind as most of you know it, and talked about in other games, is not the only way to design or handle things. Sure you want people to repeat things, but there is many ways to not make it become a grind.

I’m honestly interested in knowing how.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

All MMOs have grind in some way or form, there is no way around it. The challenge for the developers is to try to hide the grind as much as possible and make it less apparent and less boring. In my opinion, WoW did a good job at this. In my opinion, GW2 did not.

Unless you dislike doing challenging raids or engaging questlines to unlock said raids, WoW’s grind was not that bad. When I played it I actually looked forward to gettng home, turning on my PC, getting on WoW and doing the planned raid(s) with my guild. It was challenging, fun and the rewards were good.

In GW2 I had that same feeling only a few times: The first time doing dungeons (when everyone thought they were hard), when Tequatl first got updated, when the Twisted Marionette was introduced, when Triple Trouble was introduced and the first few times of doing The Silverwastes.

I absolutely loved grinding those bosses each day, sometimes multiple attempts per day! Why? Because these fights where challenging, engaging and of the same quality as WoW raids. The fun was not in getting the rewards either, the fun was in knowing you could fail but if you didn’t you’d get rewarded decently for it.

Flash-forward to now and I don’t enjoy any of the above-mentioned content anymore. Why? Because it became too easy and got reduced to farm-status (a term used by MMO players to indicate it’s a sure and easy win and you’ll get your little reward with little effort).

And here is the real problem. Farming is the worst kind of grind. It is absolutely boring and mind-numbing. And pretty much all PvE content got reduced to farm-status. The only reason to do any of the above mentioned content now is for the rewards.

And here is another problem. The rewards for doing anything remotely fun in GW2 are lackluster and not worthwhile. I get no fun out of doing a farm-status boss for a hand full of silver and one or two rares, especially not when I know I can make thirty times as much by doing a real actual farm (ToT bag farm in Bloodtide Coast).

GW2’s biggest problem is that almost everything can be bought with gold and the most efficient way to get that gold is by doing incredibly boring farm (be it a dungeon speedrun train, a world-boss train, ToT bag farm or farming Silverwastes, they’re all farm-status now) and we just established that farming is the worst kind of grind.

It basically comes down to: You want something? You’ll have to farm for it.

This problem isn’t exclusive to GW2 but it’s most apparent in GW2 because of 2 reasons:

1) Everything can (and sometimes must) be bought with gold and the only effective way of getting that gold is doing some kind of farm.

2) Almost all rewarding PvE content in GW2 has been reduced to farm-status and Anet does not give us enough new content to challenge and engage us again.

The expansion pack we’re finally getting is long overdue and I truly hope that HoT will introduce some new challenging group content with decent rewards. That should surely make GW2 feel less grindy again.

But it will only be a matter of time before the HoT content will also be reduced to farm-status. Will Anet be ready with yet another expansion or some updates by the time that happens? Or will GW2 return to feeling super boring and grindy 6 months after the expansion?

This exactly!

Basically, anet exchanged the possibility to get a nice reward after killing one boss for the possibility to get the same nice reward but after 1000 hours of regular play (or less of mindless farm). They took a problem and, by trying to fix it, made it a lot worst.

This game has grind, Anet saying grind is optional is just a lame copout, simple as that!!!

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Yes “grind is grind.” There is; however a difference between “required” and “optional.” Some would go so far as to say a very big difference.

Now, that said. I will point out that all games have grind. To one extent or another. If you are looking for a game with absolutely no grind, an MMO is not what you’re looking for. Even GW1 had grind. Both required and optional.

Only problem is the what is optional for you might be the preferred game-play for another person (so not optional for him) and the other way around.

And yes all games allow for some grind but I did play many MMO’s where I did not run into the grind I do run into here… For me that is when wanting to hunt down items, skins, cosmetics, and so on.

Grind is not fun. I agree with this. That’s why I pretty much never do any grind.

Funnily enough, I have everything I want in the game. And if I want anything new, I’m able to get it pretty much immediately. I make enough of all currencies simply by playing the game. It probably takes me a lot longer to do so than people who focus only on making gold, but, again funnily enough, I don’t really care. Cause, you know, I get to enjoy playing the game.

I have never encountered another MMO where you can do whatever you want, whenever you want, and encounter no grind along the way.

If you’re grinding, you either choose to grind, or you’re setting your goals too high. Either way, it’s your own choice not to have fun.

Under my careful analysis of your paragraphs and thoughts it has come to my conclusion that you have a personal vendetta against this game and, whether you want to admit it or not, have a remorse and sickening for the developers causing you to feel emotions of sickness, madness, sadness and overall disappointment.

It is under my close examination in times like this that you take a step back. I tell this to my other patients to. See it for what it is. There is no punishment for going back to old zones for leveling, there are no fetch quests, you don’t have to backtrack. This game is the best game I have ever played in 15 years playing mmos. It is a beautiful piece of artwork that belongs in a museum. That’s how you feel playing such a ..delicate piece of fine institution. It is a marvel to what people can make in the gaming world and a marvel for others to follow.

Seek help immediately for it is not the game…tis you dear boy.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

1) Everything can (and sometimes must) be bought with gold and the only effective way of getting that gold is doing some kind of farm.

I cant seem to find the mini liadri on the TP I’ve been looking for. I would also love to get a few of them fractal skins and I would love that fractal tonic, have you seen the transforms? I would also love to mix and match all the Glorious and dungeon armor skins to make a cool look. But I cant seem to find any to buy on the TP.

Devata.6589:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Yes “grind is grind.” There is; however a difference between “required” and “optional.” Some would go so far as to say a very big difference.

Now, that said. I will point out that all games have grind. To one extent or another. If you are looking for a game with absolutely no grind, an MMO is not what you’re looking for. Even GW1 had grind. Both required and optional.

Only problem is the what is optional for you might be the preferred game-play for another person (so not optional for him) and the other way around.

And yes all games allow for some grind but I did play many MMO’s where I did not run into the grind I do run into here… For me that is when wanting to hunt down items, skins, cosmetics, and so on.

I don’t think you understand what ‘optional’ means. If it depends on your personal choice of playstyle, then it is, by definition, optional. You choose how you play and the goals you set.

With the way rewards are handled in GW2, if you feel that you are grinding it is because you CHOSE to take the efficient route rather than the fun route to your target.

All routes lead to the same target. I can PvP and buy nearly anything. I can WvW and buy nearly anything. I can PvE and buy nearly anything. I can do dungeons or fractals and buy nearly anything. I can farm Orr or Silverwastes and buy nearly anything. I can do nearly anything and as a result can buy nearly anything.

This means that I can completely avoid doing anything I don’t want to do and still get the same rewards as the guy who does the complete opposite.

That is what is meant by “no grind philosophy”. You can play the type of content that you like and will still get the same rewards as everyone else.

If you are doing content you don’t like simply because it is “faster”, then you are simply cheating yourself out of enjoyment of the game to satisfy your demand for instant gratification.

Devata.6589:

It’s not all equal based on YOUR personal playstyle.

It’s a simple matter of content, gating content behind grind makes it mandatory, regardless if you do or not even enjoy that content. If by any chance you ever WANT to do it, you can’t, unless you grind first.

Skins on the other hand are completely optional “grind” because you are not locked out of anything if you don’t get them.

Optional grind doesn’t lock you out of content, therefore it’s not mandatory, so it’s optional. Also, if you want skins, you can get most of them in a million different ways, you might get lucky and get them instantly, you might get lucky and get a valuable drop, sell it and get that skin. You at least have a lot of choice on how and when to get your skins, it’s not like it’s locked behind specific content that you first need to grind in order to get them (with some exceptions)

There are some rare exceptions, the luminescent skin set, precursors and some unique exotics that depend way too much on luck (they are “fixing” the precursors, maybe they will fix the others too?). Those are horribly designed, but what about anything else? You can get Gem Store skins too simply by playing the content you enjoy, the only question is WHEN.

The difference with mandatory grind is that you can’t get the rewards it gives, usually playable content, but can also be unique skins as well, by playing anything else the game has to offer. I can’t get access to specific high end skins and high end content without first grinding to access it.

On the other hand, the grind in GW2 is almost completely optional, you can get nearly everything by playing anywhere and doing anything you want.

Vayne.8563:

This whole conversation is completely meaningless because everyone is using different definitions of what grind is. I don’t grind in this game. I don’t have to grind. I do a variety of activities and I can get what I want…I’ve done it all without grinding, including five legendaries. Yeah, it takes a lot longer my way, but it can be done.

if you dont feel there is any grind, then you really have nothing to add to the topic of how to ease, eliminate, or change it. Let the people feel it express their views, and possible solutions. It wont really effect you in any case.

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

This whole conversation is completely meaningless because everyone is using different definitions of what grind is. I don’t grind in this game. I don’t have to grind.

Just because you don’t call it grind, doesn’t mean it’s not grind. Your definition of grind is very… Colorful.

No, my definition of grind is not doing anything I don’t want to do at any time, even if it takes me longer to get stuff. I don’t do the same stuff over and over because it bores me to tears.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

This whole conversation is completely meaningless because everyone is using different definitions of what grind is. I don’t grind in this game. I don’t have to grind. I do a variety of activities and I can get what I want…I’ve done it all without grinding, including five legendaries. Yeah, it takes a lot longer my way, but it can be done.

if you dont feel there is any grind, then you really have nothing to add to the topic of how to ease, eliminate, or change it. Let the people feel it express their views, and possible solutions. It wont really effect you in any case.

Unfortunately so far it’s mostly an argument on what “grind” means and not much about ways to eliminate it or change it.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

This whole conversation is completely meaningless because everyone is using different definitions of what grind is. I don’t grind in this game. I don’t have to grind. I do a variety of activities and I can get what I want…I’ve done it all without grinding, including five legendaries. Yeah, it takes a lot longer my way, but it can be done.

if you dont feel there is any grind, then you really have nothing to add to the topic of how to ease, eliminate, or change it. Let the people feel it express their views, and possible solutions. It wont really effect you in any case.

I didn’t say I don’t feel there’s any grind, so why put words in my mouth. I simply said there’s no required grind and on top of that, I choose not to grind because I dislike it.

Nor can you say something will or won’t affect me, even if it doesn’t directly affect my play style. If people end up pressuring Anet to make the game less grindy and then people run out of stuff to do and leave the game that affects everyone.

There are people here who don’t understand that having long term goals you have to work towards are the only thing keeping some people in the game. Maybe not you. Maybe not all people, but some people.

You have to give enough people enough of what they want for the game to exist…or it will cease to exist at some point. I’d say that affects me.

You people need to chill out and start having fun and stop talking about this stuff so god kitten often!

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

It’s not all equal based on YOUR personal playstyle.

It’s a simple matter of content, gating content behind grind makes it mandatory, regardless if you do or not even enjoy that content. If by any chance you ever WANT to do it, you can’t, unless you grind first.

Skins on the other hand are completely optional “grind” because you are not locked out of anything if you don’t get them.

Optional grind doesn’t lock you out of content, therefore it’s not mandatory, so it’s optional. Also, if you want skins, you can get most of them in a million different ways, you might get lucky and get them instantly, you might get lucky and get a valuable drop, sell it and get that skin. You at least have a lot of choice on how and when to get your skins, it’s not like it’s locked behind specific content that you first need to grind in order to get them (with some exceptions)

There are some rare exceptions, the luminescent skin set, precursors and some unique exotics that depend way too much on luck (they are “fixing” the precursors, maybe they will fix the others too?). Those are horribly designed, but what about anything else? You can get Gem Store skins too simply by playing the content you enjoy, the only question is WHEN.

The difference with mandatory grind is that you can’t get the rewards it gives, usually playable content, but can also be unique skins as well, by playing anything else the game has to offer. I can’t get access to specific high end skins and high end content without first grinding to access it.

On the other hand, the grind in GW2 is almost completely optional, you can get nearly everything by playing anywhere and doing anything you want.

the Op never said that it wasnt optional, but more that it really doesnt matter if its optional or not. Optional grind, is still grind. Its just optional.

anyhow, i think the Ops points are this

Optional grind still feels grindy, You have to realize that most of the game will be spent pursuing optional goals. Therefore if most of your game, is spent on optional things, if you design optional things to be grindy, your game will be grindy overall.

The types of repetition they encourage are not well designed. They tend to reward the least entertaining, most repetitive, least challenging content the most. Many a farmer i have seen talk about how they are watching netflix while they have their screen shrunk down.
and even in this most effecient mode of play, you basically still have to dedicate hours upon hours to achieve your goals.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

This whole conversation is completely meaningless because everyone is using different definitions of what grind is. I don’t grind in this game. I don’t have to grind. I do a variety of activities and I can get what I want…I’ve done it all without grinding, including five legendaries. Yeah, it takes a lot longer my way, but it can be done.

if you dont feel there is any grind, then you really have nothing to add to the topic of how to ease, eliminate, or change it. Let the people feel it express their views, and possible solutions. It wont really effect you in any case.

Unfortunately so far it’s mostly an argument on what “grind” means and not much about ways to eliminate it or change it.

Which is important. We cannot figure out how to address something unless we have clarity regarding what the problem is.

Harzul.9816:

Under my careful analysis of your paragraphs and thoughts it has come to my conclusion that you have a personal vendetta against this game and, whether you want to admit it or not, have a remorse and sickening for the developers causing you to feel emotions of sickness, madness, sadness and overall disappointment.

It is under my close examination in times like this that you take a step back. I tell this to my other patients to. See it for what it is. There is no punishment for going back to old zones for leveling, there are no fetch quests, you don’t have to backtrack. This game is the best game I have ever played in 15 years playing mmos. It is a beautiful piece of artwork that belongs in a museum. That’s how you feel playing such a ..delicate piece of fine institution. It is a marvel to what people can make in the gaming world and a marvel for others to follow.

Seek help immediately for it is not the game…tis you dear boy.

Click on their name, read their post history going back years.
The probability of them taking a step back is so low as to be insignificant.

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

This whole conversation is completely meaningless because everyone is using different definitions of what grind is. I don’t grind in this game. I don’t have to grind. I do a variety of activities and I can get what I want…I’ve done it all without grinding, including five legendaries. Yeah, it takes a lot longer my way, but it can be done.

if you dont feel there is any grind, then you really have nothing to add to the topic of how to ease, eliminate, or change it. Let the people feel it express their views, and possible solutions. It wont really effect you in any case.

I didn’t say I don’t feel there’s any grind, so why put words in my mouth. I simply said there’s no required grind and on top of that, I choose not to grind because I dislike it.

Nor can you say something will or won’t affect me, even if it doesn’t directly affect my play style. If people end up pressuring Anet to make the game less grindy and then people run out of stuff to do and leave the game that affects everyone.

There are people here who don’t understand that having long term goals you have to work towards are the only thing keeping some people in the game. Maybe not you. Maybe not all people, but some people.

You have to give enough people enough of what they want for the game to exist…or it will cease to exist at some point. I’d say that affects me.

In all honesty, i dont think that the OP, or other players are really trying to have no goals. In fact i think the OPs prefered methods would probably still take a long time. And may not be how i would handle it.

But thats what discussion is about. Talk about what you think, discuss problems and solutions. Some times you disagree, some times you agree, but ideas are shared, and new ideas are formed. At worse you come out with a better understanding of peoples perspectives.

And i dont really think the OP says that all grind is required, i think their point is that you shouldnt design anything to feel grindy, optional or not.

Devata.6589:

It’s not all equal based on YOUR personal playstyle.

I don’t see the relevance … Anet cannot balance the game according to individual playstyles. Arguments around ‘what I think’ are not relevant.

You can make all the OMG grind threads you want but the fact is that because grind is subjective, Anet has to take a line in the sand approach. The line in the sand is their own idea of what grind is because they are responsible for creating the game. If it’s too much for you in this game, you can choose to not play it. The ignorance surrounding this whole topic is astounding.

phys.7689:

The types of repetition they encourage are not well designed. They tend to reward the least entertaining, most repetitive, least challenging content the most. Many a farmer i have seen talk about how they are watching netflix while they have their screen shrunk down.
and even in this most effecient mode of play, you basically still have to dedicate hours upon hours to achieve your goals.

And in the other hand , we have the Aetherblade Dungeon based on the freeback of the community that wanted the most hardcore istances ever , where only a handfull amount of ppl would do it .
Results : They called it TENDIOUS and not REWARDING FOR MY TIME .
And neither the casulas , nor the ‘’other ppl’’ is doing it …
(And we must do the same in the inc Raids !!!!)

I am all ears about hearing SOLUTIONS , rather than minigless words from all the ppl :P
Otherwise it will be again a round loop and the thread will be closed

For example Devata wants more ingame items , even with 2-3% chance (we had a Megathreads about the Sunless pet and ppl moaned that the chance to drop it too low-even after they doubled the chance to drop )

While Test wants 100% chance to drop from each event .

I find it funny , becucause 2 years ago the company used to bump up things to collect in a very allarming way , the community moaned to them t slow down .
But history must repeats itself :P
Just because , ppl where not active on the forums back then :P

Vayne.8563:

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

This whole conversation is completely meaningless because everyone is using different definitions of what grind is. I don’t grind in this game. I don’t have to grind.

Just because you don’t call it grind, doesn’t mean it’s not grind. Your definition of grind is very… Colorful.

No, my definition of grind is not doing anything I don’t want to do at any time, even if it takes me longer to get stuff. I don’t do the same stuff over and over because it bores me to tears.

i think the game is best experienced in this way, however the reward system doesnt really encourage that type of mentality.

Sometimes, just by putting huge numbers on things people want, you alter how people interact with it.

For example, teaching some one, if you approach them a certain way, it can be fun and exciting, but take even the most interesting thing one can learn, and say something like i will give you 20 bucks after you do these 1000 problems, and you have turned it into a grind. Some may do it, but few will feel like the experience itself wasnt a grind.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

phys.7689:

The types of repetition they encourage are not well designed. They tend to reward the least entertaining, most repetitive, least challenging content the most. Many a farmer i have seen talk about how they are watching netflix while they have their screen shrunk down.
and even in this most effecient mode of play, you basically still have to dedicate hours upon hours to achieve your goals.

And in the other hand , we have the Aetherblade Dungeon based on the freeback of the community that wanted the most hardcore istances ever , where only a handfull amount of ppl would do it .
Results : They called it TENDIOUS and not REWARDING FOR MY TIME .
And neither the casulas , nor the ‘’other ppl’’ is doing it …
(And we must do the same in the inc Raids !!!!)

I am all ears about hearing SOLUTIONS , rather than minigless words from all the ppl :P
Otherwise it will be again a round loop and the thread will be closed

For example Devata wants more ingame items , even with 2-3% chance (we had a Megathreads about the Sunless pet and ppl moaned that the chance to drop it too low)

While Test wants 100% chance to drop from each event .

I find it funny , becucause 2 years ago the company used to bump up things to collect in a very allarming way , the community moaned to them t slow down .
But history must repeats itself :P

Aetherblades, the reward doesnt match the time expenditure, and some elements lower its replayability.
Also, for me personally? twilight arbor is pretty low on the cool places to hang out list.

Its not good to create hard content without giving people a reason to actually do it.

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

This whole conversation is completely meaningless because everyone is using different definitions of what grind is. I don’t grind in this game. I don’t have to grind.

Just because you don’t call it grind, doesn’t mean it’s not grind. Your definition of grind is very… Colorful.

No, my definition of grind is not doing anything I don’t want to do at any time, even if it takes me longer to get stuff. I don’t do the same stuff over and over because it bores me to tears.

i think the game is best experienced in this way, however the reward system doesnt really encourage that type of mentality.

Sometimes, just by putting huge numbers on things people want, you alter how people interact with it.

For example, teaching some one, if you approach them a certain way, it can be fun and exciting, but take even the most interesting thing one can learn, and say something like i will give you 20 bucks after you do these 1000 problems, and you have turned it into a grind. Some may do it, but few will feel like the experience itself wasnt a grind.

On the contrary. The game’s reward system is designed specifically around Vayne’s playstyle. You can do anything and still make gold. You’re not forced into certain, specific “challenging” activities to make gold. Although you can, if you so desire, choose particular content, or methods of farming, that will make you gold more efficiently.

The large numbers for rewards is a misconception. You can get the vast majority of things relatively quickly, and relatively cheaply. This puts them well within the grasp of people who play as they want, and just make gold along the way. [Sure, if you want all of the things, the numbers for them do add up.]

Only a small amount of (variably desirable) rewards have massive pricetags/requirements attached to them. It’s almost always the same few things that come up when people complain about grind. These are in the game to provide long-term goals/rewards for the players who (for whatever reason) engage in the most efficient farming a lot. Or to provide very long term goals for the average player.

Olvendred.3027:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

Test.8734:

Vayne.8563:

This whole conversation is completely meaningless because everyone is using different definitions of what grind is. I don’t grind in this game. I don’t have to grind.

Just because you don’t call it grind, doesn’t mean it’s not grind. Your definition of grind is very… Colorful.

No, my definition of grind is not doing anything I don’t want to do at any time, even if it takes me longer to get stuff. I don’t do the same stuff over and over because it bores me to tears.

i think the game is best experienced in this way, however the reward system doesnt really encourage that type of mentality.

Sometimes, just by putting huge numbers on things people want, you alter how people interact with it.

For example, teaching some one, if you approach them a certain way, it can be fun and exciting, but take even the most interesting thing one can learn, and say something like i will give you 20 bucks after you do these 1000 problems, and you have turned it into a grind. Some may do it, but few will feel like the experience itself wasnt a grind.

On the contrary. The game’s reward system is designed specifically around Vayne’s playstyle. You can do anything and still make gold. You’re not forced into certain, specific “challenging” activities to make gold. What you can do, is choose particular content, or methods of farming, that will make you gold more efficiently.

The large numbers for rewards is a misconception. You can get the vast majority of things relatively quickly, and relatively cheaply. This puts them well within the grasp of people who play as they want, and just make gold along the way. [Sure, if you want all of the things, the numbers for them do add up.]

Only a small amount of (variably desirable) rewards have massive pricetags/requirements attached to them. It’s almost always the same few things that come up when people complain about grind. These are in the game to provide long-term goals/rewards for the players who (for whatever reason) engage in the most efficient farming a lot. Or to provide very long term goals for the average player.

i hear you can get things with bandit crests, somewhere in the number of thousands?
i heard you could get a wolf mini with some box, but people open 10 thousands of these boxes for it.
you can get ascended armor for 10800 silk, amongst other things
the game isnt very grindy, till you hit 80, and you start doing the things that they expect 80s to do. Then grind pops up again and again.

IMO the best way to design long term goals;
is to set lots of smaller goals along the way.
dont put too much of the goals reward on the end of the task
dont design the number of hours first, then adjust the repetitions to fit that.

as for the game rewarding vaynes type of play, it doesnt really reward it well, it just doesnt make it worthless. Not many games i have played ever made things worthless so i dont really understand why yall are so impressed with that.

Most MMOs i played you can get gold doing most things, even killing nobodies, and turn that gold into items that allow you to do the vast majority of the content in the game. you may have to do that stuff longer, but you will get there. Its generally faster to do it in otherways though, like hunting rare monsters, Challenging world bosses, dungeons, or special questlines, which were for most people more entertaining than harvesting plants, killing weak enemies and whatnot.