Guild Wars 2

gargamel page bug fixo

LucosTheDutch.4819:

In GW2 I had that same feeling only a few times: The first time doing dungeons (when everyone thought they were hard), when Tequatl first got updated, when the Twisted Marionette was introduced, when Triple Trouble was introduced and the first few times of doing The Silverwastes.

I absolutely loved grinding those bosses each day, sometimes multiple attempts per day! Why? Because these fights where challenging, engaging and of the same quality as WoW raids. The fun was not in getting the rewards either, the fun was in knowing you could fail but if you didn’t you’d get rewarded decently for it.

Flash-forward to now and I don’t enjoy any of the above-mentioned content anymore. Why? Because it became too easy and got reduced to farm-status (a term used by MMO players to indicate it’s a sure and easy win and you’ll get your little reward with little effort).

And here is the real problem. Farming is the worst kind of grind. It is absolutely boring and mind-numbing. And pretty much all PvE content got reduced to farm-status. The only reason to do any of the above mentioned content now is for the rewards.

And here is another problem. The rewards for doing anything remotely fun in GW2 are lackluster and not worthwhile. I get no fun out of doing a farm-status boss for a hand full of silver and one or two rares, especially not when I know I can make thirty times as much by doing a real actual farm (ToT bag farm in Bloodtide Coast).

GW2’s biggest problem is that almost everything can be bought with gold and the most efficient way to get that gold is by doing incredibly boring farm (be it a dungeon speedrun train, a world-boss train, ToT bag farm or farming Silverwastes, they’re all farm-status now) and we just established that farming is the worst kind of grind.

It basically comes down to: You want something? You’ll have to farm for it.

This problem isn’t exclusive to GW2 but it’s most apparent in GW2 because of 2 reasons:

1) Everything can (and sometimes must) be bought with gold and the only effective way of getting that gold is doing some kind of farm.

2) Almost all rewarding PvE content in GW2 has been reduced to farm-status and Anet does not give us enough new content to challenge and engage us again.

The expansion pack we’re finally getting is long overdue and I truly hope that HoT will introduce some new challenging group content with decent rewards. That should surely make GW2 feel less grindy again.

But it will only be a matter of time before the HoT content will also be reduced to farm-status. Will Anet be ready with yet another expansion or some updates by the time that happens? Or will GW2 return to feeling super boring and grindy 6 months after the expansion?

Any “difficult” content available in the future will eventually be trivialized by extremely organized and optimized play, ultimately becoming more “farms”, which you dislike. As you said, you enjoyed the content when it was new (and therefore, challenging); some people still find Dungeons difficult, either because they are new, or don’t do them much. For them, these are not “farms” but actual challenges to conquer and get better at.

It will happen faster than 6 months, IMHO. Nowadays “metas” get copied quite easily, and even more optimal/faster Dungeon runs are continually developed (good for them who enjoy the process.) It’s up to each individual player whether the content will get “stale” rather quick, or keep having fun while doing it.

I am 100% sure that for every player that finds the game a “boring grind”, MANY others enjoy playing and “farming” the same “chore”-like content and have fun either solo or with their guildies or friends.

I personally can’t see the game as grindy-the most horrible grind are a few titles, many Legendaries, and the Fractal thing. And as I said in the other thread, I only “grinded” for over a year (practically no grind under those casual circumstances) for the Light of Dwayna, which I didn’t need and only pursued for the skin and my character’s concept; not because I “needed” a pink backpiece (same with my other characters’ backpieces, whenever those are pink.)

I MAY craft Keeper’s in the future, but I am not in a rush. I make these things as I play along, rather than seeing them as a daily chore. I don’t play any content which I don’t find fun, and try to achieve all my character’s goals with that in mind (as soon as it becomes a darn job, I just do something else.) Quite honestly, this game is indeed a “zero grind” one FOR ME (MANY other games do require grind just to level… the supposed grind in this game is so minimal, IMO.)

Olvendred.3027:

Grind is not fun. I agree with this. That’s why I pretty much never do any grind.

Funnily enough, I have everything I want in the game. And if I want anything new, I’m able to get it pretty much immediately. I make enough of all currencies simply by playing the game. It probably takes me a lot longer to do so than people who focus only on making gold, but, again funnily enough, I don’t really care. Cause, you know, I get to enjoy playing the game.

I have never encountered another MMO where you can do whatever you want, whenever you want, and encounter no grind along the way.

If you’re grinding, you either choose to grind, or you’re setting your goals too high. Either way, it’s your own choice not to have fun.

I share this view. While I don’t deem myself superior for not having the grind mentality (really, I am not), ultimately the game will be grindy for those who have chosen that path-and the game actually has given that type of player-which isn’t 100% of them- the opportunity to grind if they choose to (Fractals was the game’s first grind, and were designed with grinders that “ran out of things to do”in mind.)

Even then, EVERYTHING is achievable casually and playing for fun-it will just probably take you much more longer. Fine by me, but not for some other players-does that really make the game “grindy”, or is that indeed a good thing for the game all things considered? For I believe that the game is friendly to grinders and non-grinders alike in all of the above regards.

phys.7689:

IMO the best way to design long term goals;
is to set lots of smaller goals along the way.
dont put too much of the goals reward on the end of the task
dont design the number of hours first, then adjust the repetitions to fit that.

So Mawdrey crafting works? Does this fit your ideal? If not how does it differ?

Luminescent armor? Same questions.

Star of gratitude? Same questions.

If not your ideal set up, are those examples moving into the correct direction for you design wise? If not, how would you change the acquisition of future items similar in nature?

Genuinely curious, because I see them moving towards what you want already, especially with precursor hunt/whatever they do in the xpac.

CureForLiving.5360:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

And here is the real problem. Farming is the worst kind of grind. It is absolutely boring and mind-numbing. And pretty much all PvE content got reduced to farm-status. The only reason to do any of the above mentioned content now is for the rewards.

So I take it you’re taking the same definition of grind and farm as me then?

Yes I do. However I’d add that farming in GW2 is not really optional anymore. Pretty much everything in PvE has been reduced to farm-status, at least in my opinion. The only way to acquire gold in a somewhat effective way is through farming, whether you’re farming world-bosses, farming the Silverwastes, farming dungeons or farming ToT bags in Bloodtide Coast, it’s all farming and it’s the only way to acquire most things in GW2.

As I see it, farming is the only type of grind in GW2 but it’s very very apparent, in your face and all over the game.

MMOs cant work without grinding, not on this scale.

Everybody that took that no grind philosophy for face value is deluding themselves.

Once you hit max level MMOs have 2 options: PvP or Grind
That will never change.

Arkinos.7245:

MMOs cant work without grinding, not on this scale.

Most MMOs don’t work. Look at the graveyard of failed MMORPGs and you have proof of that statement. Look at the barely alive MMORPGs and you will see the same.

MMORPGs don’t work and most of the time fail because they all catter to the same kind of player: grinders. Probably because that’s the easiest kind of player to catter to. Still, there aren’t enough grinders in the world to fill all MMORPGs that have been released these last years, hence why so many failed.

How to fix this? Making a MMORPG that would catter to a different demographic than the grinders.

Which is what ArenaNet said they would do. In the end…

Arkinos.7245:

Everybody that took that no grind philosophy for face value is deluding themselves.

…Nope, ArenaNet deluded us.

Arkinos.7245:

Once you hit max level MMOs have 2 options: PvP or Grind
That will never change.

Because players always accept it. That’s why it will never change.

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

IMO the best way to design long term goals;
is to set lots of smaller goals along the way.
dont put too much of the goals reward on the end of the task
dont design the number of hours first, then adjust the repetitions to fit that.

So Mawdrey crafting works? Does this fit your ideal? If not how does it differ?

Luminescent armor? Same questions.

Star of gratitude? Same questions.

If not your ideal set up, are those examples moving into the correct direction for you design wise? If not, how would you change the acquisition of future items similar in nature?

Genuinely curious, because I see them moving towards what you want already, especially with precursor hunt/whatever they do in the xpac.

havent really tried for most of this stuff, but id say mawdrey looks decent even though it looks like too long a list of random mats, but it probably feels better .
star of gratitude i havent seen much info on, and i wasnt playing much when it came out.

luminescent seems to be more straightforward but like i said, i havent interacted with these items directly so, im a bit fuzzy

I honestly think its possible they could do a lot right with HoT, and some things seem to be moving in a good direction. Buutt its possible they could miss the mark too.

Trying to talk objectively about “grind” is pointless, because each person has to decide what “grind” means to them.

If you define “grind” as repetitive content, then an MMO literally cannot exist without grind. No game that requires people to continually play for long periods of time is going to be without long-term goals in the form of repeated content, because developers simply can’t create content as fast as players consume it.

If you define “grind” as repetitive content that you’re tired of doing but really want the reward for, then upon finding yourself in a grind, you should probably re-evaluate if the reward is actually worth the effort to you. If it is, keep going and don’t whine; if it’s not, get over it and go do something else.

Those of you with abundant free time and/or few responsibilities probably haven’t figured this out yet, but if you’re spending leisure time doing something you don’t like, stop!! Follow that one simple rule, and I doubt you will ever complain about “grind” again.

Sigh….just let it go already.

You can never remove grind from a game. Its impossible. Why? Because of the players themselves.

All the last thread proved was that there are too many different variations to the definition of grind now, and asking a game developer to try and avoid each one is impossible. The second new content no longer feels new, it is now a grind to some.

Didn’t get what you wanted the first time you killed a boss or ran a dungeon? Well, do it again, thus grind. Need two items from a dungeon? Grind since you already have to run it more than once.

Oh, but the dungeon is considered fun? Fun is relative. What’s fun for one person, isn’t fun for another. So while one may not find it a grind, another will. Thus, its a grind.

In the end, players are going to have to take some responsibility on grind and learn to either throttle back their wants, or not make something a grind and learn to do other activities so things stop feeling like a grind because they got played out. Once something stops being fun, it becomes a grind. Which, once again, fun is based on the player.

But lets face it, its human nature to do things as efficient and fast to get something done, even if its boring, hence why devs can’t keep up with supplying new content constantly.

What can you do to reduce grind? There’s too many unknown and varying information to really do much. So far, the only solution anet was able to come up with was to try and reward more gold into the system to allow purchase. Yes, it doesn’t seem like much with no armor repairs and stuff, but it is still an injection of gold into the game. And lets put it this way, getting gold now, is WAAAY easier than it was in the beginning.

As for trying to “reduce” grind, again, you are asking for the near impossible.
1. Do the players find this “fun”? – Again, a subjective statement. The devs may find it fun, players may not. Or some players may, others may not. Thus, if there is an item there a player who hates the activity wants, it could be called a grind for them. In which you would say “well then, place it somewhere else attainable”, in which case the loop repeats with the addition of “is it easier than method one, in which case method one will be ignored.” as well as “what if the player still doesn’t like the activity?”. Thus, the method of “allow it to be sold on TP then for gold.” In which case, gold can be earned almost everywhere.

2. How many attempts before its called a grind? – Again, i bet you can find one person that says after one or two tries, its a grind to them. Others may not find it a grind till after 20, and so many different variations. How do you decide this? Add tokens? Make it that you can’t get duplicates from boss drops? By limiting the amount of attempts till “done.” how does that effect the player population in running the activity? If a majority get finished, how is it fair to new players trying to find more people to do it themselves? And before you say “fun”, again, relative.

3. How do to place a value on players time? – Lets face it, everyone will have different values. i could consider 30min of my time more important than 30min of yours. So if something takes more than 30min, its a grind to me, and i should be rewarded better for my time spent. So once agian, how do you figure this with so many different players? And if you say “fun”, once again, repeat after me “relevant”.

There are probably many more I didnt think of that goes into the process. Again, a company can try to curve it the best they can, but grind is going to be in the game no matter what, and its mostly because they can’t control exactly when a player starts feeling when something is a grind.

So, once someone finds a way to judge a person’s limits to what grind is on an individual basis, then ways to get rid of grind all together can come about.

About the definition of what grind is. It was defined by anet.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273

In the context of gw2, this is the definition of grind. People who do not agree with that definition are wrong. Not because their opinion contradicts it but because they do not acknowledge that definition as being what the devs are working under.

To me “grind” is being required to do the same content(for example, instanced dungeons) for BIS items. Many other mmo’s have this kind of grind. The whole thing where you run a raid/dungeon and gather a piece of armor here or a weapon there from a certain boss only, so you can get all the gear to do the hard mode of that same raid/dungeon. That is locking content behind a grind. Or even worse, the whole xpac thing where other mmo’s jack the max level up and introduce a new line of gear you need to have to participate in the new content or areas. This is also always locked behind the same “repeat content” grind in those games.

Going out and playing this game and getting rewarded with items you can vendor or trade for what you need is great because GW2’s economy and primary currency(gold) are not in the toilet like a lot of those other repeatable content grind mmo’s. In Gw2 there are more rewarding play styles compared to others in gold terms, but in the end anything you choose to do advances you toward whatever goal a player has. If you want mjolnir you can go farm sparks, farm Dust Mites(grindy activity but not grind because you can also..) run COE for cores and lodestones, among other activities you can choose to do.

Devata.6589:

But what is optional.

The so called ‘required’ grind in many other games like WoW was never required for me because I did not want to do the highest lever raids. So does then not make it optional?

Yes and no.. it was optional for me because I did feel the need to do those raids. I however do feel like getting those cosmetics so if I would want to do that in GW2 the grind is required for me.

It just depends on what you like to do if it’s option for your. However it’s both not ‘required’ in general.

So when you say that is required and this is not it only means you feel the need to be able to do those highest level raids while you do not feel the need to get the cosmetics. Thats person.

But for the people who like to hunt for the item, grind is grind.

This is a good point. For many people, the old stand-by cop-out of “You don’t have to do it” is their go-to response for everything they personally don’t have a problem with. I know what you mean, though. As was pointed out in the other thread, Anet’s narrow definition of grind allows them to make the claims they do, but for people just playing the game, doing different things, they see a lot of grind.

I’ve done a lot of crafting in this game, for instance. If your definition of fun is collecting crafting recipes, you are going to find A LOT of grind. Some of the recipe requirements are simply unbelievable. Same for WvW achievements. You’ll not find too many people unwilling to admit that most of them are really bad in the grind department.

However, Anet’s definition of grind means they discount these other areas of the game. Anet has, in fact, built very impressive grind into their game to keep people busy. But all MMOs do this to varying degrees. So while players will always find grind to deal with according to their particular playstyle, whether it’s crafting, WvW, achievement hunting, festivals, etc., it’s also not going to go away. Anet has already proven that, in many, many game areas, they love grind.

CureForLiving.5360:

Which is important. We cannot figure out how to address something unless we have clarity regarding what the problem is.

They know what the problem is. They know vaguely what they want to do to “fix it” . . . but it leads to two other problems:

First, the fixes usually just lead to other required tweaks and shifts until we’re at a state of total redesign. Easier to go try to make another game altogether. This is the “give a mouse a cookie” problem.

Second, and to borrow from someone else – good design isn’t always hand and hand with good development. It can be the coolest, least grindy game, but is it really what’s good for the game itself?

This is what happens when I listen to Drive To Work.

Test.8734:

Because players always accept it. That’s why it will never change.

Oh it will change. And the first MMO that tries it is going to faceplant, along with possibly the second as well.

Probably because they don’t grasp why it’s there.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

~

“they should remove the gem store and create more x-packs , i am not a developer but they should make come true”

I only referred to that in a few comments.. You know, when people say things like ‘but they have to earn money’. Oow and I am a developer, so I don’t think I said I wasn’t.

“Without understanding that LIVE UPDATES cost money …. ” Live updates as in LS updates you mean? But how is that relevant if you refer to me saying they should focus on x-packs?

“And you simply copy -paste the cash gained from the GTA and with the prediction that you envisioned other games falling … ” Not sure what you are saying here or what you are referring to. But seeing how you are talking about the x-pack options I did mention in the other thread the GTA example was just to show that a model as that could work.

“ ‘’make a game for the FREAKS and ppl will come . Make a game for casual and it might die ’’
What kind of envisioned is that ????” Lol by placing that here without the context it was in.. well it’s completely out of context. If you need to use this sort of tricks to try and get your points does that mean you don’t have any points? Anyway, just for the record, here is the context.

This was from a discussion in another thread (From 2011) on another site (beta forums for Crysis 2). The ‘freaks’ was the way another person in that thread referred to PC-gamers. The point I made there was that for Crysis the PC-game / version was basically the billboard for the game. So I said, make the game to be for the console players (that were the casuals in this quote) game-play wise but also technically wise, and the game might die, but make sure you have the PC-gamers on your site and people will come. Based on that I even made the prediction that if Crytec would do that (as they did) sales of Crysis 2 would still be good because people had some expectations from Crysis 1, but then Crysis 3 sales would be bad and there might be no Crysis 4. Looks like I was spot on.

So that was the type of vision that history has proven right. To answer your question. But of course you need to understand the context to know what was said (as you do, as you quoted it).

“THE MAJORITY OF THE PPL HATING ONE THING and the majestic DEVATA dont want to grind gold ….. ” Ah it’s only me who dislikes that. Everybody else loves to grind gold? The hate for that other thing is because that is what people did run into a lot in many other MMO’s. But many, many people dislike the boring grind including that for gold or other currency’s. Not only the majestic Devata. We all know that so who are you kidding I wonder?

“What part of the community are you represent ? ” I am just giving my vision, I am not trying to represent anybody. But I guess you could say with this discussion I represent anybody who dislikes all the grind in GW2, including the ‘grind for gold’ for most things.

“The more than more that left of the GRIND GOLD ? ” Next time you want me to answer your question make sure you ask it in English, because I have no idea what your question is.

“While in all games , collecting gold comes naturally in any activity , you simply hate to push the CONVERSION bottun and buy that item in GW2 ? ” It’s no problem that ‘earning’ gold is something that happes in an MMO’s. The problem is that gold (or currency) is the only realistic way to get by far most of the items you might like. While you can’t directly hunt down most of those items. Like in many other games you can, be it by completing a quest, or as part of a craft, or for completion a dungeon, or sometimes even by farming. That also some naturally in many MMO’s. Nut not in GW2, where the focus is so much on skins, toys and that sort of items.

1/2

2/2

“So you played WowW for a lonmg time , but in here you found the problem with gold ? ” When played WoW mainly by hunting down mini’s, mounts, mini-pets, fun items (toys) and crafting fun-crafts that rewarded these sort of items. There never was a need to grind gold to get these items. It was an option for many of those items, but I liked the hunt and so never grinded for gold or had to grind for gold if I wanted to get any of these things. That is the difference.

“Most mount and cosmetic items in WoW, comes from Raids .” Yeah, lets just trow in some complete nonsense to try and make a point. By far most mounts and cosmetics don’t. Usually there is one or two mounts at the highest raid at the time and some BiS gear. In my quest for mounts, and mini’s and toys and other skins I can’t remember really running into the problem of not being able to get any of those things because it was in the highest tier raid, but it sure is possible.. with like 2 mounts or so.

“Now if you didnt do raids , then you waited till the next x-pack to solo the Raids .” I guess that would be an option. But getting all the ‘cosmetics’ can easily take up until the next expansion. So I don’t think you really had to ‘wait’.

“Then why you want moost gear in GW2 NOW ? ” Where did I say I wanted it NOW? I mean you putting it in caps must mean this is some thing I very clearly said. Back to reality again. I didn’t. In fact I want some thing to be locked behind some challenging content that will mean you won’t get it NOW.

“Most Limited collector items will show up again later this year too , so ofc you can w8 ” Sure I can, and then buy them with the gold I would have grinding. Thats, a great suggestion you make there, that will take away the grind… oow wait, no it doesn’t.

“From tommorow , you shoudnt avoid my posts :P ” If you will stickt to the facts and context I won’t, else I will.

Test.8734:

Devata.6589:

The thread can be better be used to talk about how it can be approved. How to move in the better direction again for the HoT release, because if it doesn’t imho that is going to be a big problem for Anet. People will not keep coming back if they keep being disappointed.

Devata, your intentions are noble, but I don’t think your idea of reducing grind and increasing fun will happen.

ArenaNet has no reason to make it happen.

“ArenaNet has no reason to make it happen. ”

I do not think that is true. Anet has been losing income ever since release. Now we don’t know the number of players but likely if they get less and less income they are likely also losing players.

What would be a reason to leave a game? Most likely reason is because your done with it and it’s getting boring. Well one reason why people might start finding a game boring is because it’s all grind, grind and more grind. Eventually people will get tired of that. Some sooner then later.

So to keep the game strong for years to come they even have to change it. If they don’t, all the people who left because the game became boring for them because of the grind, and who will come back for HoT, they will leave again. And this time they will not return for the second expansion. That is why Anet will have to do something about it if they really want to keep this game going strong for years. Something you would think Anet wants. Ncsoft on the other hand can simply release another title as people remember GW2 and Anet, not Ncsoft.

“Of course, making it with great care would lead to more people liking it and less people not liking it, but it would still not be a 100% success.” Sure, but the current way is also not a 100% success. That will never be the case. But at least they have a bigger player-base they can keep selling expansions to. It also means a bigger name so more options for merchandise and so on.

“This is what they did with the original Guild Wars, mostly in the beginning of the game. ” And what made them so successful that they could build GW2, and had made such a big name for themselves that GW2 was the best selling MMO at the time.

Devata.6589:

What would be a reason to leave a game? Most likely reason is because your done with it and it’s getting boring. Well one reason why people might start finding a game boring is because it’s all grind, grind and more grind. Eventually people will get tired of that. Some sooner then later.

Reason to leave a game is “done everything in the game” too. I know many people who left because there was nothing more to do other than going for better skins.

“This is what they did with the original Guild Wars, mostly in the beginning of the game. ” And what made them so successful that they could build GW2, and had made such a big name for themselves that GW2 was the best selling MMO at the time.

On another note, Guild Wars 1 had some of the worst “optional” grind ever seen in an MMORPG game.

Devata.6589:

Test.8734:

Devata.6589:

The thread can be better be used to talk about how it can be approved. How to move in the better direction again for the HoT release, because if it doesn’t imho that is going to be a big problem for Anet. People will not keep coming back if they keep being disappointed.

Devata, your intentions are noble, but I don’t think your idea of reducing grind and increasing fun will happen.

ArenaNet has no reason to make it happen.

“ArenaNet has no reason to make it happen. ”

I do not think that is true. Anet has been losing income ever since release. Now we don’t know the number of players but likely if they get less and less income they are likely also losing players.

What would be a reason to leave a game? Most likely reason is because your done with it and it’s getting boring. Well one reason why people might start finding a game boring is because it’s all grind, grind and more grind. Eventually people will get tired of that. Some sooner then later.

So to keep the game strong for years to come they even have to change it. If they don’t, all the people who left because the game became boring for them because of the grind, and who will come back for HoT, they will leave again. And this time they will not return for the second expansion. That is why Anet will have to do something about it if they really want to keep this game going strong for years. Something you would think Anet wants. Ncsoft on the other hand can simply release another title as people remember GW2 and Anet, not Ncsoft.

“Of course, making it with great care would lead to more people liking it and less people not liking it, but it would still not be a 100% success.” Sure, but the current way is also not a 100% success. That will never be the case. But at least they have a bigger player-base they can keep selling expansions to. It also means a bigger name so more options for merchandise and so on.

“This is what they did with the original Guild Wars, mostly in the beginning of the game. ” And what made them so successful that they could build GW2, and had made such a big name for themselves that GW2 was the best selling MMO at the time.

So the reason anet lost income was because of grind….

Can I have your contact’s info inside the HQ of Arenanet so I too can get a quote of this stunning revelation?

maddoctor.2738:

On another note, Guild Wars 1 had some of the worst “optional” grind ever seen in an MMORPG game.

Second worst I’ve seen. Also wasn’t an MMORPG.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

maddoctor.2738:

On another note, Guild Wars 1 had some of the worst “optional” grind ever seen in an MMORPG game.

Second worst I’ve seen. Also wasn’t an MMORPG.

Sorry, not MMORPG, COOP RPG

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

maddoctor.2738:

On another note, Guild Wars 1 had some of the worst “optional” grind ever seen in an MMORPG game.

Second worst I’ve seen. Also wasn’t an MMORPG.

You know what even funnier? Those posts complaining about the grind still exist on forums till this day. You can go back and find complaints about gw1, its just a bit harder cause its spread out, not centralized like gw2 is with official forum run by anet itself.

But hey, people love to wear those rose-tinted glasses

maddoctor.2738:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

maddoctor.2738:

On another note, Guild Wars 1 had some of the worst “optional” grind ever seen in an MMORPG game.

Second worst I’ve seen. Also wasn’t an MMORPG.

Sorry, not MMORPG, COOP RPG

For the record, the second sentence had double meaning. The worse I’ve seen was also not MMORPG but was online – a server running TerraFirmaCraft. There is nothing quite as grindy as getting Red/Blue Steel enough to make gear from it.

Serophous.9085:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

maddoctor.2738:

On another note, Guild Wars 1 had some of the worst “optional” grind ever seen in an MMORPG game.

Second worst I’ve seen. Also wasn’t an MMORPG.

You know what even funnier? Those posts complaining about the grind still exist on forums till this day. You can go back and find complaints about gw1, its just a bit harder cause its spread out, not centralized like gw2 is with official forum run by anet itself.

But hey, people love to wear those rose-tinted glasses

I especially love the exact same conversation about how the grind wasn’t optional, because we say so.

. . . because everyone needs top rank Norn/Asura/Sunspear reputation.

I agree we shouldn’t give them an excuse to close anything. Grind is still a grind. None of the arguments that are against it being called a grind are relevant. This game was not supposed to have it. It’s not healthy to have a grind and it needs to be removed from the title. I think now that they have plenty of money to work with, several things including a grind for ascended could easily be adjusted in no time prior to the launch of HoT and it would be an amazing gesture to the community on the part of Arenanet if they did do that. (much like the removal of the requirement of WvW from the world completion Achievement was received by those of us in the PVE community).

Grind whether people perceive it as optional or not is the mmo equivalent of adding shaky cam to a movie fight scene because the acting is so bad that the actors can’t carry out a believeable fight scene and the directors are trying to hide it. It’s not a valid substitute for content in any shape or form in any game genre and it shouldn’t allowed to continue. That’s the point people are missing.

I for one am not complaining about the grind because it’s simply a matter of my getting gear fast I’m complaining about it because it’s almost always used as a “busy work” alternative to try to tide the players over until the real content is released and it’s never ever a good thing for the games that suffer from the grind.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Serophous.9085:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

maddoctor.2738:

On another note, Guild Wars 1 had some of the worst “optional” grind ever seen in an MMORPG game.

Second worst I’ve seen. Also wasn’t an MMORPG.

You know what even funnier? Those posts complaining about the grind still exist on forums till this day. You can go back and find complaints about gw1, its just a bit harder cause its spread out, not centralized like gw2 is with official forum run by anet itself.

But hey, people love to wear those rose-tinted glasses

I especially love the exact same conversation about how the grind wasn’t optional, because we say so.

. . . because everyone needs top rank Norn/Asura/Sunspear reputation.

You forgot the human one

tigirius.9014:

I agree we shouldn’t give them an excuse to close anything. Grind is still a grind. None of the arguments that are against it being called a grind are relevant. This game was not supposed to have it. It’s not healthy to have a grind and it needs to be removed from the title. I think now that they have plenty of money to work with, several things including a grind for ascended could easily be adjusted in no time prior to the launch of HoT and it would be an amazing gesture to the community on the part of Arenanet if they did do that. (much like the removal of the requirement of WvW from the world completion Achievement was received by those of us in the PVE community).

Grind whether people perceive it as optional or not is the mmo equivalent of adding shaky cam to a movie fight scene because the acting is so bad that the actors can’t carry out a believeable fight scene and the directors are trying to hide it. It’s not a valid substitute for content in any shape or form in any game genre and it shouldn’t allowed to continue. That’s the point people are missing.

I for one am not complaining about the grind because it’s simply a matter of my getting gear fast I’m complaining about it because it’s almost always used as a “busy work” alternative to try to tide the players over until the real content is released and it’s never ever a good thing for the games that suffer from the grind.

One person finds something in the game Grindy. A second person does not. Is there, or isnt there grind?

Serophous.9085:

tigirius.9014:

I agree we shouldn’t give them an excuse to close anything. Grind is still a grind. None of the arguments that are against it being called a grind are relevant. This game was not supposed to have it. It’s not healthy to have a grind and it needs to be removed from the title. I think now that they have plenty of money to work with, several things including a grind for ascended could easily be adjusted in no time prior to the launch of HoT and it would be an amazing gesture to the community on the part of Arenanet if they did do that. (much like the removal of the requirement of WvW from the world completion Achievement was received by those of us in the PVE community).

Grind whether people perceive it as optional or not is the mmo equivalent of adding shaky cam to a movie fight scene because the acting is so bad that the actors can’t carry out a believeable fight scene and the directors are trying to hide it. It’s not a valid substitute for content in any shape or form in any game genre and it shouldn’t allowed to continue. That’s the point people are missing.

I for one am not complaining about the grind because it’s simply a matter of my getting gear fast I’m complaining about it because it’s almost always used as a “busy work” alternative to try to tide the players over until the real content is released and it’s never ever a good thing for the games that suffer from the grind.

One person finds something in the game Grindy. A second person does not. Is there, or isnt there grind?

There is because in games in which there aren’t grinds no one talks about the game being grindy. I can list loads of games all of which have a perfectly free environment for economics and for gathering and some of which actually have pvp death penalties where you lose all of your stuff and competitive gathering and those games are not grinds because some draconian measures weren’t placed on loot and there are no limitations on what you can earn for your time in game and there are no limitations on the economies. ;D There is a difference.

Serophous.9085:

One person finds something in the game Grindy. A second person does not. Is there, or isnt there grind?

This is the main problem with grind discussions. Everyone has a different definition so no one ever really agrees. For whatever reason, this game is what it is.

For me, aspects of it is the worst grind I’ve ever encountered in a game. But other parts of it is much less of a grind than other games. Basically, I do what I can to minimize the game’s grind while enjoying the parts I don’t find grindy.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Serophous.9085:

One person finds something in the game Grindy. A second person does not. Is there, or isnt there grind?

This is the main problem with grind discussions. Everyone has a different definition so no one ever really agrees. For whatever reason, this game is what it is.

For me, aspects of it is the worst grind I’ve ever encountered in a game. But other parts of it is much less of a grind than other games. Basically, I do what I can to minimize the game’s grind while enjoying the parts I don’t find grindy.

And for the sake of the topic, let it be assumed there is . . . in fact . . . grind which cannot be avoided.

What should be done?

I’m sure it’s a complicated answer. I guess a lot of grind could be reduced simply by reducing the requirements to a more reasonable number, in cases where that could solve the problem.

For instance, crafting recipes that are particularly difficult to complete due to items dropping rarely in the world or even being impossible to get aside from the TP or simply having really high item requirements – the numbers of items needed could be reduced, thus reducing grind to complete or discover them.

Achievement numbers could be reduced, such as in many WvW achievements. This would then reduce grind on those.

A lot of times when people talk about grind, they mean the ability to make gold. Many people come from games where making in-game currency is much easier there than here, so it seems like a huge grind here. But any talk of making it easier to make a profit, say on the TP, also involves complicated discussions on the economy.

In other games, for instance, I would find a crafting niche and make items and then sell them for a nice profit and I can do this any time I like. It was easy to farm mats and keep my business, if you will, going. Here, it’s different. Making something and consistently selling it for a nice profit is harder, not as much of a sure thing. Solution? Not sure, since other games don’t make as much of an effort to watch all aspects of their auction houses.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Serophous.9085:

One person finds something in the game Grindy. A second person does not. Is there, or isnt there grind?

This is the main problem with grind discussions. Everyone has a different definition so no one ever really agrees. For whatever reason, this game is what it is.

For me, aspects of it is the worst grind I’ve ever encountered in a game. But other parts of it is much less of a grind than other games. Basically, I do what I can to minimize the game’s grind while enjoying the parts I don’t find grindy.

That’s true, unless you properly define a problem, there can be no solution.

However, as posted earlier in this thread, Colin gave us what grind means for the developers themselves.

Reposting: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273

No matter what definition individual players give, it doesn’t matter. It’s how the developers define it that matters.

Something around here:

- Grind: To us, grind means being required to do the same boring activity over and over again. In particular, the biggest reference we’re talking about here in traditional MMO’s is having to kill the same creatures over and over again to farm for levels or gear. In Gw2, you can gain exp and levels from a massive variety of game play, game modes, and content types. Same goes for the ability to acquire the gear to build up your characters. Similarly, ascended mats can be acquired from a wide variety of content types and game modes to allow you choice and options so you don’t need to grind to complete those goals. Our new mastery system continues to this promise as well, which we’ll go into more detail on soon.

So yeah, not required to do the same activity over and over, which for most things you don’t have to repeat because you earn gold and experience from a variety of content.

There are certainly optional activities in the game players can embark on that I think we’d openly accept fall into the category of our definition of more “grindy”. Earning certain unique skins, and in particular some titles absolutely qualify as things we’d put on this list. Legendary weapons have components to them that fall into this category, though we’ll be doing work in HOT to make this much less the case. We feel these are optional choices players don’t need to do, but can if they want, and because they are optional are acceptable within our statement that “Gw2 doesn’t make you grind to have the best gear/stats”. That doesn’t mean we can’t make those activities more fun as well, but when we say “no grind philosophy” we’re not including optional things you can do, but don’t need to do, in our definition.

So here he defines what is optional and what is not.

It doesn’t matter how certain posters define optional and required grinding. There are no multiple definitions, you go with what the developers think instead.

Now -maybe- we can more clearly see the problem instead of fighting over definitions.

maddoctor.2738:

No matter what definition individual players give, it doesn’t matter. It’s how the developers define it that matters.

Yes, ultimately, that’s what it comes down to. Anet defines grind for their game, so that is the end all and be all. We all know that Anet separates grind into required grind and optional grind, but one of the discussions here is whether anything can or should be done about the optional grind because that is minimizing some players’ enjoyment of the game.

The optional grind is up to the player. There can be no grounds for complaint because they are only doing it because they wish to rather than need to.

Freewill FTW

Kedarrian.2905:

The optional grind is up to the player. There can be no grounds for complaint because they are only doing it because they wish to rather than need to.

Freewill FTW

Yeah, but as noted previously, you’re missing the point of what is being said about optional grind completely.

Celtic Lady.3729:

maddoctor.2738:

No matter what definition individual players give, it doesn’t matter. It’s how the developers define it that matters.

Yes, ultimately, that’s what it comes down to. Anet defines grind for their game, so that is the end all and be all. We all know that Anet separates grind into required grind and optional grind, but one of the discussions here is whether anything can or should be done about the optional grind because that is minimizing some players’ enjoyment of the game.

Absolutely. Tell them to not do it if they don’t enjoy it.

Celtic Lady.3729:

I’m sure it’s a complicated answer. I guess a lot of grind could be reduced simply by reducing the requirements to a more reasonable number, in cases where that could solve the problem.

Creates other problems when you do . . . except maybe for this one:

Achievement numbers could be reduced, such as in many WvW achievements. This would then reduce grind on those.

Are those even an issue, as they’re all vanity titles? Sure, we could reduce numerical requirements, as those numbers are completely arbitrary anyway . . . but what good comes of it? And what bad comes of it being so hefty?

For instance, crafting recipes that are particularly difficult to complete due to items dropping rarely in the world or even being impossible to get aside from the TP or simply having really high item requirements – the numbers of items needed could be reduced, thus reducing grind to complete or discover them.

Ah, crafting. It’s almost always designed in an MMORPG to be unable to generate profit as far as selling to NPC vendors goes. It’s pretty difficult to generate profit to other players, too, in a broad sense. I don’t think I’ve seen any MMO with crafting desirable gear also requiring no grind to reach the ability to do so.

A lot of times when people talk about grind, they mean the ability to make gold. Many people come from games where making in-game currency is much easier there than here, so it seems like a huge grind here. But any talk of making it easier to make a profit, say on the TP, also involves complicated discussions on the economy.

This comes from the link of Gold to Gems – it needs to be monitored, and runaway potential has to be anticipated carefully.

It’s also not a huge grind, unless we are talking about a particular set of options. Limited-access Skins, Precursors, Permanent Contracts, and Gathering Node items. These are quite simply the only things which are “overpriced”. Gearing up takes less than 50 gold if you’re only in it for the gear stats; a Precursor starts at 10x that amount at least before rapidly inflating.

Really there are two problems with the crafting system, and these are ones which can’t be solved without a total redesign (and complete disruption) – the lack of cloth/leather type acquisition except through salvage is a big one, especially considering the incredibly demand for Silk Scraps. (Or Linen.) The second problem is how it really doesn’t offer much reason to do so except for personal use, or the acquisition of Ascended Gear outside of relying on RNG.

Solving the first would create a massive ripple of disruption which may or may not settle down the economy into something at a lower mean value.

Solving the second just would require a lot of work redesigning for almost no gain other than “to do it”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s pretty difficult to generate profit to other players, too, in a broad sense.

This comes from the link of Gold to Gems – it needs to be monitored, and runaway potential has to be anticipated carefully.

Actually, I have no trouble generating profit through crafting and selling what I craft on the AHs in most of the other games I play. GW2 feels very different to me in this area. But I know that’s because their TP is different, as well.

Yeah, the whole selling gold from gems and vice versa is obviously at the heart of this game’s attention to their economy, which I know, again, changes the game compared to others I’ve played.

Celtic Lady.3729:

maddoctor.2738:

No matter what definition individual players give, it doesn’t matter. It’s how the developers define it that matters.

Yes, ultimately, that’s what it comes down to. Anet defines grind for their game, so that is the end all and be all. We all know that Anet separates grind into required grind and optional grind, but one of the discussions here is whether anything can or should be done about the optional grind because that is minimizing some players’ enjoyment of the game.

I think the main problem with this game isn’t in “repeating content” (grinding) but at how badly (in my opinion) the Risk vs Reward works here. Although I like how I can get most things I ever wanted by playing a variety of content, this creates the main problem. Harder / more challenging content should also give better rewards, harder content should offer higher chances at getting the optional items.

For example, do I want the Bandit Champion bags (those you also get from SW) to have better chances at giving their exotic skins? No, I don’t, in fact I’d rather they lower those chances even more, then make some of the harder Bandit bosses (or make new ones) to drop those skins with a lot higher chances.

You can’t compare a champion in the Frostgorge train with the final boss in HotW P1, yet they drop the same bag. This huge difference in rewards between different parts of content is exactly where the problem with the “grind” is.

And second, equally important, the fact that loot is personal in this game. Everyone has the same chances at dropping loot and roll on the same table no matter what they did in the encounters they participated in.

This creates a problem when people around you are dropping rare loot and you don’t. This is especially a problem in dungeons / fractals with account bound gear, like Fractal rings and skins.

I proposed multiple system a long time ago to solve the RNG / grind issues of the game.

1) Make Account Bound gear party bound. So any type of gear that is account bound on acquire becomes “party bound” instead, allowing players to freely give those gear types to other people in their party. For example, Fractal Skins, Fractal Rings, Ascended Armor / Weapon chests, Carapace armor skins, Tequatl skins, Triple Trouble skins, and any new skins they might add in HoT that use a similar system to Luminescent.
There is way more in this, but this is the basic thing. Although the RNG chances are the same, grind stays the same in “math”, however the lucky ones can spread their luck to less lucky people, essentially lowering the amount of repeating you have to do to get your rewards significantly.

2) Offer progressively better rewards, the more types of a particular content you do, the more rewards you get. So if you run 1 dungeon path you will get the same reward you do now (or even LESS). If you run a second path of the second dungeon you get EXTRA tokens, if you run all 3 dungeon paths you get even more extra tokens. The extra tokens are based on the amount of unique paths you do everyday.

Alternatively, offer more rewards for any dungeon path. For example, if I want Arah tokens, I can run CoF P1, CoE P1, CoE P3 and finish with Arah P3 and get a massive token boost. So, the more UNIQUE paths you do, the more rewards you get, reducing the amount of grinding needed to get a specific armor skin by a very large margin, while making more of the game’s content playable and “valid”.

3) I once proposed an idea to create a stacking buff (like Bloodlust) that players can get while doing events in zones, later that buff will affect their rewards / drops from the End boss of that zone. So you might get “Hero of Queensdale” and your event stacks will affect your loot from the Shadow Behemoth. The same system can be used on most zones with a World Bosses.

I was pleasantly surprised when Anet released Silverwastes and had a very similar concept (do events to increase MF), although my idea was to put this kind of system on all zones.

In general, higher difficulty should give more rewards, but ALSO grinding should give reduced rewards, doing the same thing over and over should have extensive DR so it’s not profitable to do it all day. Instead, a system that rewards players for doing a HUGE VARIETY of content can be used to offset this.

Kedarrian.2905:

Celtic Lady.3729:

maddoctor.2738:

No matter what definition individual players give, it doesn’t matter. It’s how the developers define it that matters.

Yes, ultimately, that’s what it comes down to. Anet defines grind for their game, so that is the end all and be all. We all know that Anet separates grind into required grind and optional grind, but one of the discussions here is whether anything can or should be done about the optional grind because that is minimizing some players’ enjoyment of the game.

Absolutely. Tell them to not do it if they don’t enjoy it.

Yeah…but once again you seem to be missing the point. Not a problem. There are going to be disconnects in any discussion.

It’s best to approach the topic less with the attitude of “well don’t do it then”. There’s no discussion potential there. Which is at least how this topic can be different enough than the other one to stay open and not get locked down.

Focus on what the grinds are and what fixes might matter, rather than trying to define it, educate/convert other posters, or scoring points in some game nobody’s paying attention to.

we all know games have grind but one thing is having grind and another is making the grind near impossible or simply punishing , such as nerfing events and timegating content .

Timegating is a mechanic to alleviate other areas of grind, such as allowing the cost to be cheaper . . . but spread out over a long time as opposed to needing more up front. It also can be used to avoid RNG as a means of delivering rewards, or side-by-side – you know it’s eventually possible, but there’s a chance it might drop/pop anyway.

And nerfing events which break other aspects of the game . . . notably the economy . . . is important. Otherwise you run into serious issues.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

It’s best to approach the topic less with the attitude of “well don’t do it then”. There’s no discussion potential there. Which is at least how this topic can be different enough than the other one to stay open and not get locked down.

Focus on what the grinds are and what fixes might matter, rather than trying to define it, educate/convert other posters, or scoring points in some game nobody’s paying attention to.

Well I posted some of my “fixes”, I hope those who say the game is super grindy can read them and discuss them

And others too of course.

Celtic Lady.3729:

maddoctor.2738:

No matter what definition individual players give, it doesn’t matter. It’s how the developers define it that matters.

Yes, ultimately, that’s what it comes down to. Anet defines grind for their game, so that is the end all and be all. We all know that Anet separates grind into required grind and optional grind, but one of the discussions here is whether anything can or should be done about the optional grind because that is minimizing some players’ enjoyment of the game.

Celtic Lady.3729:

For instance, crafting recipes that are particularly difficult to complete due to items dropping rarely in the world or even being impossible to get aside from the TP or simply having really high item requirements – the numbers of items needed could be reduced, thus reducing grind to complete or discover them.

This is a horrible suggestion and I will tell you why. Similar to the new reveal that 100% map comp will not include WvW maps, lowering requirements for items ultimately disenfranchises the loyal players who have already completed it with the harder requirements. It may be “for the best”, which is still a matter of opinion, but it doesnt return the time and effort already put in by people.

This also leads to those loyal players saying to themselves whenever new content comes out, “Ill just wait 6 months or a year and they will make it easier to do” This loss of immediacy ends up making players less interested in logging in regularly because they are not concerned with what they may be missing. You can see the negative side of this at work with the gem store items, and all the issues about limited time offers. The whole black wing sale for 1 day recently is an example of how players react when they lose their sense of immediacy and don’t log in as regularly as they once did.

eithinan.9841:

…lowering requirements for items ultimately disenfranchises the loyal players who have already completed it with the harder requirements. It may be “for the best”, which is still a matter of opinion, but it doesnt return the time and effort already put in by people.

This also leads to those loyal players saying to themselves whenever new content comes out, “Ill just wait 6 months or a year and they will make it easier to do”

I can see what you’re saying with the second point, but what I’m really referring to isn’t starting out with one thing and then changing it to another. I really mean, they could have lower requirements from the beginning, even though in the above discussion, I mentioned adjusting things to make them easier. It would be preferable if things started out with less of a grind rather than change later, I agree.

Although, that said, MMOs are always changing, and so yeah, some people may have different experiences, but for me, it doesn’t bother me if I do something and then it gets easier for someone else. I chose to do what I did when I did it, so it getting easier isn’t really an issue for me.

Me, I wear it as a badge of pride . . . even if it’s only one I can see. “I did that puzzle with no mesmer portals” can’t be proven, but it still resonates within. Just like “I Grandmastered Blacksmith and Miner before Valorite existed.”

I think the OP is correct however it doesn’t matter if people find it grindy or not, it doesn’t matter if people say it’s optional or not it’s a grind. There is a clear definition for a grind outside of what the devs have said they feel is a grind or not and this game has that definition. Until that changes, until certain restrictions like DR and extreme RNG and the TPcentric nature of the game, and an actual function rewards system is in place and the lack of a use for Karma in ascended gear acquisition, grind is here to stay no one can deny that and as Picard said in the episode The Measure of a Man, ""Your honor, the courtroom is a crucible; in it, we burn away irrelevancies until we are left with a purer product: the truth, for all time." That’s pretty much what we’ve already done in the first thread, all of these irrelevant arguments are done, they are finished, they’ve been disproven. We’re left with a pure product, the truth. GW2 has a grind.

It needs to go. simple, and they’ve got the funds and the ability to make it happen now, the ball is in their court when HoT is released, will this grind still exist or will it continue?

tigirius.9014:

It needs to go. simple, and they’ve got the funds and the ability to make it happen now, the ball is in their court when HoT is released, will this grind still exist or will it continue?

That depends. Has the reason it exists changed? If it hasn’t, then no . . . it’s not going to go away.

tigirius.9014:

and an actual function rewards system is in place

It needs to go. simple, and they’ve got the funds and the ability to make it happen now, the ball is in their court when HoT is released, will this grind still exist or will it continue?

Thanks god the community doesnt manage and create the game .
‘’I know the problem , but i dont have an answer , but its their job to fix the problem ’’

If you are willing to malke post after post , atleast give us some hard evidense of how gear should be gained from bosses …
2-5% RNG ?
100% chance after the 10th time ?
Dungeons Tokens ?
Complete all the hard Achivments ?

If you can easily acknowledge the problem , then share some of your Wisdom with us the pesants …

Edit: I want to see among the ppl that hate the grind , that there is an other obtacles they must face , that is called : ‘’Difference of the Community ’’

Because some wants want more Prestige Skins asociated with Hard content
While others wants 100% drop rate .
Some other want that items to be drop ingame with 2-5% chance .

So even I , i cannot think any easy/costlless sollution to this

So choose you poison and offer your sollutions .
6 ppl will leave with a big smile on their face , with the other 2 with the biggest letdown in the history