Guild Wars 2

tigirius.9014:

I think the OP is correct however it doesn’t matter if people find it grindy or not, it doesn’t matter if people say it’s optional or not it’s a grind. There is a clear definition for a grind outside of what the devs have said they feel is a grind or not and this game has that definition. Until that changes, until certain restrictions like DR and extreme RNG and the TPcentric nature of the game, and an actual function rewards system is in place and the lack of a use for Karma in ascended gear acquisition, grind is here to stay no one can deny that and as Picard said in the episode The Measure of a Man, ""Your honor, the courtroom is a crucible; in it, we burn away irrelevancies until we are left with a purer product: the truth, for all time." That’s pretty much what we’ve already done in the first thread, all of these irrelevant arguments are done, they are finished, they’ve been disproven. We’re left with a pure product, the truth. GW2 has a grind.

It needs to go. simple, and they’ve got the funds and the ability to make it happen now, the ball is in their court when HoT is released, will this grind still exist or will it continue?

Well I prefer action to words so I made some actual suggestions about the issue. Saying “the devs should change something” is meaningless without offering alternatives.

I was going to say something your “truth” and what is “disproven” but let’s stick to actual suggestion instead of meaningless talk.

I failed to mention: the game “needs” this pseudo-grind (or more precisely, perceived grind), because it attracts people who don’t have the patience to farm for gold but do have real life money. While some goals are time-barred, most of the things can be earned with enough gold, as others have mentioned. This is not good or bad per se, but causes some people to continually spend real money in the game (while others feel the need to grind for gold/mats/titles as well-which is fair-because they want things as soon as possible, perhaps due to an inner competitive drive or bragging rights.) That we are given a choice to obtain things/skins/titles without money (even if it takes seemingly forever, or others consider it a grind) is the boon in this game-many other games totally confine certain advantages or items to cash shops only. In short, there’s more than one side to this “grindy story”, and it’s certainly not all bad.

I believe 100% in the developer’s vision of “zero grind” for GW2, and have never felt deluded by them-especially since it’s quite clear what they mean. You cannot say someone is lying by choosing words from their statements and taking them out of context. As far as this particular player is concerned, the game has “zero grind” just as they have chosen to describe it.

(And as some of us have said many times before-with patience, and playing for fun, you don’t really need to grind for anything in the game. No offense intended, and feel free to just disagree if you are bent on thinking that GW2 is very “grindy”-it’s your rightful choice.)

Everyone is failing to see the real issue tho

forcing “optional” grinds on players to extend the game’s life then do the same with the expansion is simply not enough

what reason would i have to not simply use my money wisely and go play whatever new better better optimized game comes out next example: Black desert

as all this game is offering is time gate after time gate what is this facebook? we gonna play farmville in 3d?

case in point games arent meant to be a chore

i hate pvp and i ve found myself doing pvp for 6-8 hours a day at times because i ve done everything else to boredom and have been cursed like many others unable to get a precursor so i guess i ll need to grind for when the expansion comes out i craft the precursor then grind even more to craft the items for the legendary and then craft 1 legendary and i need 2-3 per character so multiply that by 7 combine that with the grind for ascended gear and multiply it by 8 and there you see why grinding is ridiculous to some

eithinan.9841:

About the definition of what grind is. It was defined by anet.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273

In the context of gw2, this is the definition of grind. People who do not agree with that definition are wrong. Not because their opinion contradicts it but because they do not acknowledge that definition as being what the devs are working under.

To me “grind” is being required to do the same content(for example, instanced dungeons) for BIS items. Many other mmo’s have this kind of grind. The whole thing where you run a raid/dungeon and gather a piece of armor here or a weapon there from a certain boss only, so you can get all the gear to do the hard mode of that same raid/dungeon. That is locking content behind a grind. Or even worse, the whole xpac thing where other mmo’s jack the max level up and introduce a new line of gear you need to have to participate in the new content or areas. This is also always locked behind the same “repeat content” grind in those games.

Going out and playing this game and getting rewarded with items you can vendor or trade for what you need is great because GW2’s economy and primary currency(gold) are not in the toilet like a lot of those other repeatable content grind mmo’s. In Gw2 there are more rewarding play styles compared to others in gold terms, but in the end anything you choose to do advances you toward whatever goal a player has. If you want mjolnir you can go farm sparks, farm Dust Mites(grindy activity but not grind because you can also..) run COE for cores and lodestones, among other activities you can choose to do.

truth is, it doesnt matter how anet defines what grind is. You can call it a different word if you want, the fact that people feel it, and dont like it is whats important.
an example of this logic
A man may define cheating on his wife as having intercourse with another woman.
But if his goal is to make his wife happy, and not feel cheated on, he has to consider her definition more than his own.
If she feels that kissing and taking women on dates is cheating then he cannot do that, or she will feel cheated on, and leave him. If his goal was for her not to feel cheated on, he has failed.

Anets goal was to make a game that doesnt feel grindy to players, if players feel what they created as grindy that is important.

Rezzet.3614:

Everyone is failing to see the real issue tho

forcing “optional” grinds on players to extend the game’s life then do the same with the expansion is simply not enough

what reason would i have to not simply use my money wisely and go play whatever new better better optimized game comes out next example: Black desert

as all this game is offering is time gate after time gate what is this facebook? we gonna play farmville in 3d?

case in point games arent meant to be a chore

i hate pvp and i ve found myself doing pvp for 6-8 hours a day at times because i ve done everything else to boredom and have been cursed like many others unable to get a precursor so i guess i ll need to grind for when the expansion comes out i craft the precursor then grind even more to craft the items for the legendary and then craft 1 legendary and i need 2-3 per character so multiply that by 7 combine that with the grind for ascended gear and multiply it by 8 and there you see why grinding is ridiculous to some

Wow….this starting already?

Community: “We want a way to get precursors!”
Anet: “Here ya go. Its in the mastery system now for crafting!”
And now people complaining about getting it….but not exactly how they want it….

eithinan.9841:

Celtic Lady.3729:

maddoctor.2738:

No matter what definition individual players give, it doesn’t matter. It’s how the developers define it that matters.

Yes, ultimately, that’s what it comes down to. Anet defines grind for their game, so that is the end all and be all. We all know that Anet separates grind into required grind and optional grind, but one of the discussions here is whether anything can or should be done about the optional grind because that is minimizing some players’ enjoyment of the game.

Celtic Lady.3729:

For instance, crafting recipes that are particularly difficult to complete due to items dropping rarely in the world or even being impossible to get aside from the TP or simply having really high item requirements – the numbers of items needed could be reduced, thus reducing grind to complete or discover them.

This is a horrible suggestion and I will tell you why. Similar to the new reveal that 100% map comp will not include WvW maps, lowering requirements for items ultimately disenfranchises the loyal players who have already completed it with the harder requirements. It may be “for the best”, which is still a matter of opinion, but it doesnt return the time and effort already put in by people.

This also leads to those loyal players saying to themselves whenever new content comes out, “Ill just wait 6 months or a year and they will make it easier to do” This loss of immediacy ends up making players less interested in logging in regularly because they are not concerned with what they may be missing. You can see the negative side of this at work with the gem store items, and all the issues about limited time offers. The whole black wing sale for 1 day recently is an example of how players react when they lose their sense of immediacy and don’t log in as regularly as they once did.

this is bad and crippling reasoning. People being angry that other people dont have to suffer what they suffered, only guarantees suffering.

I used to have to go to the library to do school assignments for book reports. Now people can download books. Should the world stay trapped in a less ideal situation just to make me feel happy that every one has to suffer the same thing as i did?

Just like the people complaining about that issue, with the reasoning that i had to do it, so everyone should, that is not a good enough reason.

Now people with reasons like.
Ok, but exploring everything should still have a purpose, or WvW needs more things to get people to try it out.

They are talking about real reasons and ideas to examine. Best case senario with your plan, you end up creating situations where all of the old content is crude and unevolved, and new content is superior, Which for GW2 is really bad, since they want people to enjoy old content along side the new content.

This game have so low grind,gear last forever and 2d best gear in game that is super easy to get is only 5% less than BIS.

You only grind if you want to grind as it not need at all for 99% of the game (only fract have big requirements)

phys.7689:

Anets goal was to make a game that doesnt feel grindy to players, if players feel what they created as grindy that is important.

. . . eh, I’m of two minds on this. First, I rather agree it’s an issue.

Then I’m reminded of the other game I’m playing more recently, and the words “Blue is overpowered and unbeatable.”

Then I start to laugh.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

phys.7689:

Anets goal was to make a game that doesnt feel grindy to players, if players feel what they created as grindy that is important.

. . . eh, I’m of two minds on this. First, I rather agree it’s an issue.

Then I’m reminded of the other game I’m playing more recently, and the words “Blue is overpowered and unbeatable.”

Then I start to laugh.

im assuming you are talking about magic, but i dont think its really mtgs goal to create a game people think is balanced. Their primary goal is to create an interesting game. MTG has had tons of imbalances which constantly change. And some times, they will design imbalances just to shake things up, or be fun.

eithinan.9841:

About the definition of what grind is. It was defined by anet.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/No-grind-philosophy/page/4#post4733273

In the context of gw2, this is the definition of grind. People who do not agree with that definition are wrong. Not because their opinion contradicts it but because they do not acknowledge that definition as being what the devs are working under.

To me “grind” is being required to do the same content(for example, instanced dungeons) for BIS items. Many other mmo’s have this kind of grind. The whole thing where you run a raid/dungeon and gather a piece of armor here or a weapon there from a certain boss only, so you can get all the gear to do the hard mode of that same raid/dungeon. That is locking content behind a grind. Or even worse, the whole xpac thing where other mmo’s jack the max level up and introduce a new line of gear you need to have to participate in the new content or areas. This is also always locked behind the same “repeat content” grind in those games.

Going out and playing this game and getting rewarded with items you can vendor or trade for what you need is great because GW2’s economy and primary currency(gold) are not in the toilet like a lot of those other repeatable content grind mmo’s. In Gw2 there are more rewarding play styles compared to others in gold terms, but in the end anything you choose to do advances you toward whatever goal a player has. If you want mjolnir you can go farm sparks, farm Dust Mites(grindy activity but not grind because you can also..) run COE for cores and lodestones, among other activities you can choose to do.

Absolutely false! You cannot sit there and tell everyone that they have the ability to farm for items in a game that has criminalized legit farmer players and brought back several terrible precedents in mmo history for the control of loot just to keep the TP centric nature of the game alive for their own gold farmer market. That simply won’t fly sorry.

Sitting there and telling everyone who disagrees that they are wrong simply because Anet’s personal definition trumps reality isn’t going to work either.

The grind exists here, it shouldn’t the original design boasted that it wouldn’t be here and adding an endless series of new grinds in no way enhances the gameplay.

Soooo many things wrong with this way of thinking. The grind doesn’t exist argument is pretty much just filled with anecdotal so-called evidence to the contrary of any argument that points out the facts. I think we need to stop giving these people a platform because it’s getting these threads in circles. Saying the grind doesn’t exist is just as false a statement as saying that everyone can farm for mats!

To those who keep using that falsehood, DR, Loot nerfs and double RNG bags would like to have a word with you about how wonderful the farming experience is in games with economies like this one has and I’m not even touching on the legendary process I’m simply making commentary on top tier gear which has yet to be restricted to being useful solely for fractals which was what it was originally intended for.

Vayne.8563:

So how do you go about making it so you can hunt them down. Give me a concrete example, because from my understanding, if they take away a grind and make it so you can just “hunt it down” you’ll attain it a lot faster, without grind. That leaves people with nothing to work towards at which point many people do leave games. Not to mention the obvious fact that once you have those skins without that grind what do you do then? Anet would have to make skins faster, or people would have nothing to do.

“So how do you go about making it so you can hunt them down. Give me a concrete example ”

It would not be one way but a number of ways. You can make them rewards for quest (with the events it’s a little harder, traditional quest would be better fitted for it) or even complete quest chains that can take a very long time. You could also have crafts where you create them yourself (but then you need to hunt down the recipe’s and ingredients), rewards for dungeons. Direct rewards but also rng, however because the item drops in one spot the rng can be more reasonable then when you make stuff drop in many places (like the current loot system does) or just behind some challenging content (like Liadri), and you can make some a simple farm (that group of moa’s can drop a mini moa), other you simply hide in the world with a low ‘spawn-rate’, think of an egg that spawns once in a while that gives you a mini.

Of course you can do all the things I just mentioned in different difficulties so some will be fast and easy to get while other will take longer and are harder to get. Some might even be upgrades… Get a silver hammer-skin for doing dungeon x, do the harder part and it will have a gold handle and do the hardest difficulty and it will have some glow over it.

If you put all these skins, animations, mini, mounts (glider skins) and toys behind that sort of content it should easily keep people busy until the next expansion that adds new content with new rewards behind it.

The rng you put in there might still feel like a little farm but at least it’s not all gold, gold gold. No, now you can directly work towards the goal / skin / cosmetic.

CureForLiving.5360:

What we need here is clarity of terminology.
When I hear grind I think: repetitive mandatory activity
When I hear farming I think: repetitive optional activity

Devata.6589:

Yes and no.. it was optional for me because I did feel the need to do those raids. I however do feel like getting those cosmetics so if I would want to do that in GW2 the grind is required for me.

Just to clarify, WoW was optional because you wanted to do raids, and GW2 is not optional because you want to get the skins. Logic seems inconsistent. Unless you’re missing a not or two there.

Devata.6589:

That is indeed the target, while for that people have to accept that indeed one person’s ‘optional’ grind is acceptable while another’s is not.

I’m tell you, clarity of terminology is important.

I would define grind as working for a currency to then being able to gain something. Like grinding XP to level, or grinding gold to buy items. While farming I consider doing a task multiple times to get a drop you like.

But when a farm becomes to extreme people also tent to refer to it as grind.

Oow, and yes there was a ‘not’ missing in that sentence.

Olvendred.3027:

Devata.6589:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Yes “grind is grind.” There is; however a difference between “required” and “optional.” Some would go so far as to say a very big difference.

Now, that said. I will point out that all games have grind. To one extent or another. If you are looking for a game with absolutely no grind, an MMO is not what you’re looking for. Even GW1 had grind. Both required and optional.

Only problem is the what is optional for you might be the preferred game-play for another person (so not optional for him) and the other way around.

And yes all games allow for some grind but I did play many MMO’s where I did not run into the grind I do run into here… For me that is when wanting to hunt down items, skins, cosmetics, and so on.

I don’t think you understand what ‘optional’ means. If it depends on your personal choice of playstyle, then it is, by definition, optional. You choose how you play and the goals you set.

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

optional
??p?(?)n(?)l/
adjective

available to be chosen but not obligatory.

“I don’t think you understand what ‘optional’ means.” Oow I perfectly understand what optional means. It means ‘something you do not have to do’. You know, like playing a video-game. So by the real definition of ‘optional’ the whole discussion of ‘required’ grind can be thrown away as that would make all grind in any game ‘optional’.

I did not come up with the nonsense idea of ‘but it’s optional so it’s not bad’.

But still.. grind is grind.

mtpelion.4562:

With the way rewards are handled in GW2, if you feel that you are grinding it is because you CHOSE to take the efficient route rather than the fun route to your target.

All routes lead to the same target. I can PvP and buy nearly anything. I can WvW and buy nearly anything. I can PvE and buy nearly anything. I can do dungeons or fractals and buy nearly anything. I can farm Orr or Silverwastes and buy nearly anything. I can do nearly anything and as a result can buy nearly anything.

This means that I can completely avoid doing anything I don’t want to do and still get the same rewards as the guy who does the complete opposite.

That is what is meant by “no grind philosophy”. You can play the type of content that you like and will still get the same rewards as everyone else.

If you are doing content you don’t like simply because it is “faster”, then you are simply cheating yourself out of enjoyment of the game to satisfy your demand for instant gratification.

The fun route for me is hunting down the item. However this fun rout does not exist for most items. Only the grind option does. So there is nothing to chose from.

And no, I do not grind, that means a big part of the content is just not available in GW2 making the game in total more boring.

Oow and about all those routes. Other things I do like to do in GW2 are the guild-missions what gives me about 3 gold a week. Then I like to do JP’s whats gives me.. well basically nothing (a few silver) and I like to do WvW but I prefer the defending part what tends to cost money for upgrades and stuff. So they will not make me a lot of money. Besides I like the hunt for item, I do not want to just buy them. It makes also the reward itself less interesting.

“That is what is meant by “no grind philosophy”. You can play the type of content that you like and will still get the same rewards as everyone else.”
Except if that type of content you like is hunting down items?

maddoctor.2738:

Devata.6589:

It’s not all equal based on YOUR personal playstyle.

It’s a simple matter of content, gating content behind grind makes it mandatory, regardless if you do or not even enjoy that content. If by any chance you ever WANT to do it, you can’t, unless you grind first.

Skins on the other hand are completely optional “grind” because you are not locked out of anything if you don’t get them.

Optional grind doesn’t lock you out of content, therefore it’s not mandatory, so it’s optional. Also, if you want skins, you can get most of them in a million different ways, you might get lucky and get them instantly, you might get lucky and get a valuable drop, sell it and get that skin. You at least have a lot of choice on how and when to get your skins, it’s not like it’s locked behind specific content that you first need to grind in order to get them (with some exceptions)

There are some rare exceptions, the luminescent skin set, precursors and some unique exotics that depend way too much on luck (they are “fixing” the precursors, maybe they will fix the others too?). Those are horribly designed, but what about anything else? You can get Gem Store skins too simply by playing the content you enjoy, the only question is WHEN.

The difference with mandatory grind is that you can’t get the rewards it gives, usually playable content, but can also be unique skins as well, by playing anything else the game has to offer. I can’t get access to specific high end skins and high end content without first grinding to access it.

On the other hand, the grind in GW2 is almost completely optional, you can get nearly everything by playing anywhere and doing anything you want.

“On the other hand, the grind in GW2 is almost completely optional” That might be true for your definition of optional grind but like the title of this thread says..

Grind is still grind. (‘optional’ or not)

While a grind isn’t always a bad thing as some sort of time gate is required to keep peeps active and working towards something.

The problem i find is gw2 is like a field of fancy looking lettuce, no matter how much work i could put in i would still be left with a bland boring taste in my mouth.

A solution could be to have a subscription where A-net could then let peeps play any content they wish without nerfs forcing peeps to a gem store to gain profit.

They could then develop more interesting / frequent content improving both the game and gaming experience, until then gw2 is a fancy looking mixed lettuce dinner.

Some may defend lettuce now but ultimately its still bland and boring.

phys.7689:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

phys.7689:

Anets goal was to make a game that doesnt feel grindy to players, if players feel what they created as grindy that is important.

. . . eh, I’m of two minds on this. First, I rather agree it’s an issue.

Then I’m reminded of the other game I’m playing more recently, and the words “Blue is overpowered and unbeatable.”

Then I start to laugh.

im assuming you are talking about magic, but i dont think its really mtgs goal to create a game people think is balanced. Their primary goal is to create an interesting game. MTG has had tons of imbalances which constantly change. And some times, they will design imbalances just to shake things up, or be fun.

Yeah, but there’s a lot about it which is important to the integrity of the game . . . balance isn’t one of them. They freely admit, often, they want it to be less a total balance (where there’s not much difference to what color(s) you play) because then it’s uninteresting.

. . . I’d say the same rules do apply to MMOs. Perfect balance is not as interesting as careful imbalance. Remember, chess is perfectly balanced and while it’s lauded so much as an intellectual exercise . . . how fun is it to play compared to, say, Pandemic?

The health of a game is an overriding issue to keep in mind when designing and developing. It’s why I say some grind is going to stay – it’s important to the health of the game. You can’t eliminate all of it, much like you can’t really remove all RNG completely and keep quite the same interest from players.

It’s better to shuffle those things into places where they do not affect the core of the game itself, and act more as flavor/seasonings to the experience as opposed to intruding on the central game itself. Which, mind you, is what we have right now.

But there’s still ways to alter what’s in the game, and some of these places the grind pops up can be dealt with and potentially not have an adverse effect on the health of the game. I think crafting is one place it can be worked on. (Such as enabling Karma trade for special materials like “Large Skull”, while making them Account Bind on Acquire but their completed weapons are not.)

Precursors, as we know, is already something which has been tweaked. (Though details on how have not yet surfaced.)

I’d say there’s precious few other places where the grind should be removed. It could be reduced, perhaps, or tempered to slide away from RNG. Of course, we come back to one question of importance:

Why does it exist in the first place?

Vayne.8563:

phys.7689:

Vayne.8563:

This whole conversation is completely meaningless because everyone is using different definitions of what grind is. I don’t grind in this game. I don’t have to grind. I do a variety of activities and I can get what I want…I’ve done it all without grinding, including five legendaries. Yeah, it takes a lot longer my way, but it can be done.

if you dont feel there is any grind, then you really have nothing to add to the topic of how to ease, eliminate, or change it. Let the people feel it express their views, and possible solutions. It wont really effect you in any case.

I didn’t say I don’t feel there’s any grind, so why put words in my mouth. I simply said there’s no required grind and on top of that, I choose not to grind because I dislike it.

Nor can you say something will or won’t affect me, even if it doesn’t directly affect my play style. If people end up pressuring Anet to make the game less grindy and then people run out of stuff to do and leave the game that affects everyone.

There are people here who don’t understand that having long term goals you have to work towards are the only thing keeping some people in the game. Maybe not you. Maybe not all people, but some people.

You have to give enough people enough of what they want for the game to exist…or it will cease to exist at some point. I’d say that affects me.

" I simply said there’s no required grind" But again, grind is still grind.

" If people end up pressuring Anet to make the game less grindy and then people run out of stuff to do and leave the game that affects everyone." Yeah same as when people run away from the game because they are bored (partly because of all the grind).

“There are people here who don’t understand that having long term goals you have to work towards are the only thing " I think we all understand that. I think you don’t understand that not everything has to be this (gold) grind (gold) grind (gold) grind and still allow for long term goals.

In fact I don’t understand why you think it would automatically take less time. If you put the items directly behind content it might take you just as long as to unlock skin x as it would not take you to grind gold for that same skin x.

There is no reason why it would have to take less time. Thats really something that you made up yourself but that is not what people who complain about grind are (in general) asking for.

Why for the love of God would you continue a post that was going no where? Please make it stop.

Devata, essentially your entire post is boiling down to you don’t like how Anet made their game. You want them to change it to suit your needs, because you don’t like a specific aspect. You consider it to be ‘grind.’ Anet has defined what they meant by ‘no grind’ and that’s really the end of the discussion. You don’t have to like it, you don’t necessarily have to agree, but that’s their approach.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Devata, essentially your entire post is boiling down to you don’t like how Anet made their game. You want them to change it to suit your needs, because you don’t like a specific aspect. You consider it to be ‘grind.’ Anet has defined what they meant by ‘no grind’ and that’s really the end of the discussion. You don’t have to like it, you don’t necessarily have to agree, but that’s their approach.

I think the problem with some grind is there is no alternative which Colin said there would be.

Cazamar.7148:

Why for the love of God would you continue a post that was going no where? Please make it stop.

Yeah, it’s not going to. This topic will continue to come up time and time again. I’m just going to count blessings it’s not overrun with the same semantics-arguing dolyak droppings as the last few topics.

Start at the top, agree there’s grind, then figure out what . . . if anything . . . should be done about it.

Or you can sit back and take bets how long until the next topic starts up.

mesme.5028:

I think the problem with some grind is there is no alternative which Colin said there would be.

Citation requested, please?

mesme.5028:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Devata, essentially your entire post is boiling down to you don’t like how Anet made their game. You want them to change it to suit your needs, because you don’t like a specific aspect. You consider it to be ‘grind.’ Anet has defined what they meant by ‘no grind’ and that’s really the end of the discussion. You don’t have to like it, you don’t necessarily have to agree, but that’s their approach.

I think the problem with some grind is there is no alternative which Colin said there would be.

Really, the only “no alternative” issue only applies to ascended gear acquisition. And then, only to the armor and weapons, since rings and trinkets can be acquired through 3(?) methods. However, as Colin pointed out, you can do an assortment of activities to acquire the actual crafting materials (which, doesn’t seem to be the issue). In regards to most everything else, yeah, there are alternatives.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

mesme.5028:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Devata, essentially your entire post is boiling down to you don’t like how Anet made their game. You want them to change it to suit your needs, because you don’t like a specific aspect. You consider it to be ‘grind.’ Anet has defined what they meant by ‘no grind’ and that’s really the end of the discussion. You don’t have to like it, you don’t necessarily have to agree, but that’s their approach.

I think the problem with some grind is there is no alternative which Colin said there would be.

Really, the only “no alternative” issue only applies to ascended gear acquisition. And then, only to the armor and weapons, since rings and trinkets can be acquired through 3(?) methods. However, as Colin pointed out, you can do an assortment of activities to acquire the actual crafting materials (which, doesn’t seem to be the issue). In regards to most everything else, yeah, there are alternatives.

Here he was talking about grinding levels

One thing we are fighting hardest against is grind. We don’t want the player to ever have to grind and do something they don’t want to do to progress in the game.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

I think the problem with some grind is there is no alternative which Colin said there would be.

Citation requested, please?

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/19473-interview-gw2-qa-cd-projekt-conference/

This thread is stupid. Of course you CAN grind if you try hard enough. There’s RNG so of course not everyone is going to get everything the first time.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Devata, essentially your entire post is boiling down to you don’t like how Anet made their game. You want them to change it to suit your needs, because you don’t like a specific aspect. You consider it to be ‘grind.’ Anet has defined what they meant by ‘no grind’ and that’s really the end of the discussion. You don’t have to like it, you don’t necessarily have to agree, but that’s their approach.

Of course you could say that about any complain.

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

I think the problem with some grind is there is no alternative which Colin said there would be.

Citation requested, please?

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/19473-interview-gw2-qa-cd-projekt-conference/

Okay, I’m reading through, and I am having trouble picking exactly what you think he said out of what is listed in the question you quoted just before linking me. I’m not going to derail the thread about it (Six Gods know someone else will anyway) but I will note the following:

- There is only no current alternative to acquiring Luminescent Armor than building the collection. One of these methods is regulated by RNG – the Carapace Coat Box, but the rest are regulated through token-related purchases.

- Ascended gear currently has an alternative. It, however . . . sucks. It’s very rare in the RNG and thus the only reliable method of getting what you wish is to craft. For which you will need Silk, which is currently quite expensive compared to its companion Tier 5 materials.

There is a considerable amount of things which can be done, but these two stick out recently as major issues.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

mesme.5028:

I think the problem with some grind is there is no alternative which Colin said there would be.

Citation requested, please?

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/19473-interview-gw2-qa-cd-projekt-conference/

Okay, I’m reading through, and I am having trouble picking exactly what you think he said out of what is listed in the question you quoted just before linking me. I’m not going to derail the thread about it (Six Gods know someone else will anyway) but I will note the following:

- There is only no current alternative to acquiring Luminescent Armor than building the collection. One of these methods is regulated by RNG – the Carapace Coat Box, but the rest are regulated through token-related purchases.

- Ascended gear currently has an alternative. It, however . . . sucks. It’s very rare in the RNG and thus the only reliable method of getting what you wish is to craft. For which you will need Silk, which is currently quite expensive compared to its companion Tier 5 materials.

There is a considerable amount of things which can be done, but these two stick out recently as major issues.

Yes you can count on some derail lol

“At any point of the game you will have a choice of picking whatever you want to do and that’s how we fight grind. "

Sorry, not going to get started on that again.

Absolutely everything I want to do got termed “grind” so, might as well accept that, hm?

:)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Sorry, not going to get started on that again.

Absolutely everything I want to do got termed “grind” so, might as well accept that, hm?

:)

There are many things the devs said that were perhaps ideals to strive for for. I think take gw2 for what it is and accept not everything is as the original concept and wishes of the devs for gw2 could be achieved.

phys.7689:

this is bad and crippling reasoning. People being angry that other people dont have to suffer what they suffered, only guarantees suffering.

Best case senario with your plan,

First of all I dont play games to suffer, that would be counterproductive to my escapist entertainment. I enjoyed every bit of my playing this game for the rewards I have received. Too many people here are ignoring that the journey is as important as the destination.

Secondly, Disenfranchised=/=angry, more like disappointed and maybe a little cheated. Marginalized comes to mind.

Third I didn’t offer up any plan.

Any analogies you or anyone uses in response to me will be ignored because they rarely capture the situation accurately. Using them on internet forums is always a straw man argument.

tigirius.9014:

Absolutely false! You cannot sit there and tell everyone that they have the ability to farm for items in a game that has criminalized legit farmer players and brought back several terrible precedents in mmo history for the control of loot just to keep the TP centric nature of the game alive for their own gold farmer market. That simply won’t fly sorry.

I gave 3 examples of how to get the charged cores and lodestones. 2 were from farming 2 different types of mobs and 1 was a dungeon that’s easy to do. This gets around any DR issue you are talking about. I guess you want farm areas where you can press/autoclicker 111111111 and get lewtz. I am personally glad anet fixed/is fixing that type of nonplaying of the game but still getting rewards. I find it amusing that you are so anti-grind yet are pro farm 11111111 style of play. Oh and you may want to loosen that tinfoil hat.

tigirius.9014:

Sitting there and telling everyone who disagrees that they are wrong simply because Anet’s personal definition trumps reality isn’t going to work either.

Well I don’t feel this game has any Grind. They make the game and they CHOOSE the definition they want to develop their game under. There are many words out there with multiple definition that can be used in different ways. Anet chose the definition, one which I support, that they would develop their game under.

tigirius.9014:

I think we need to stop giving these people a platform because it’s getting these threads in circles.

I am very glad that it is the mods who make that decision not you. Why should I not have a platform to share my opinions? Because they do not agree with yours?

tigirius.9014:

Saying the grind doesn’t exist is just as false a statement as saying that everyone can farm for mats!

Heh, you know whats funny? That example about mjolnir I shared is how I made my mjolnir. I guarantee I didn’t hit DR 1 time. Grind doesn’t exist because I farmed mats in a way that everyone can for a top item.

The crazy thing I did while farming those mats, if I felt it got boring to me, I went and did something else for a bit. This is the difference between real grind and what I did, when I went and did other content I could have chosen to convert whatever rewards I received and traded them on the TP for charged lodes and cores.

Again, Grind does not exist in this game, not as a requirement for content, which is what they promised. There is no grind in this game anyone MUST do to participate in any content.

(TBH, though I would consider the progression of fractals to be touching that line in the sand about grind and content, but not in regards to gear or anything material)

I think there has to be grind in an mmo in as much as there has to be class/ profession imbalances; unless ofc if you want to just stay in queensdale in starter gear.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You can’t eliminate all of it, much like you can’t really remove all RNG completely and keep quite the same interest from players.

It’s better to shuffle those things into places where they do not affect the core of the game itself, and act more as flavor/seasonings to the experience as opposed to intruding on the central game itself.

Isn’t the core of the game going out and playing the content available? How is any of it locked behind a grind?

based on many talks/discussions around this topic, i think the problem may be designing long term rewards. rather than designing one big goal that you have to a lot of effort to achieve, Its better to build shorter term goals, and try to make rewards that feel satisfying whenever you get them.

long term goals would then tend to be collection of shorter term goals.

Lets take guild halls, theoretically.
If they make it so you have to gather 100000 wood logs, then you get a guild hall, it will probably feel grindy.
But if they design it so you build each room, while it will take a long time to complete, it will not feel as grindy.

just like if the game only had 1 level, and it took 100 hours get enough experience to reach level 2, it would probably feel grindy to a lot of people.

eithinan.9841:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

You can’t eliminate all of it, much like you can’t really remove all RNG completely and keep quite the same interest from players.

It’s better to shuffle those things into places where they do not affect the core of the game itself, and act more as flavor/seasonings to the experience as opposed to intruding on the central game itself.

Isn’t the core of the game going out and playing the content available? How is any of it locked behind a grind?

That’s a good question. Discussing it further would derail the esteemed Devata’s thread though.

Devata.6589:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Devata, essentially your entire post is boiling down to you don’t like how Anet made their game. You want them to change it to suit your needs, because you don’t like a specific aspect. You consider it to be ‘grind.’ Anet has defined what they meant by ‘no grind’ and that’s really the end of the discussion. You don’t have to like it, you don’t necessarily have to agree, but that’s their approach.

Of course you could say that about any complain.

… and that would be correct. Anet defines the game. That simple. The problem with the main complaint here about grind is that it’s not a black and white issue. There is a whole spectrum of opinions when it comes to ‘grind’ in the game. It makes NO sense for Anet to adjust grind based on any particular opinion because frankly, they would never be able to get it right. The best they can do is exactly what they have done; They pick a target and use that as the guideline to develop the game.

If people are being objective, they can make intelligent assessments of where Anet is with respect to that target; even those may vary, but at least have a consistent, relevant premise. If your premise is based on some twisted interpretation or Anet’s definition or not at all, you’re arguments are without substance.

Devata.6589:

snip for length
Of course you can do all the things I just mentioned in different difficulties so some will be fast and easy to get while other will take longer and are harder to get. Some might even be upgrades… Get a silver hammer-skin for doing dungeon x, do the harder part and it will have a gold handle and do the hardest difficulty and it will have some glow over it.

If you put all these skins, animations, mini, mounts (glider skins) and toys behind that sort of content it should easily keep people busy until the next expansion that adds new content with new rewards behind it.

The rng you put in there might still feel like a little farm but at least it’s not all gold, gold gold. No, now you can directly work towards the goal / skin / cosmetic.

I get it now. See, you aren’t against grind itself. You’re against grinding for GOLD. I mean, the second you put in RNG, you are introducing grind. And you can say “oh, if would be good RNG”, well, we can look at the people who still haven’t gotten all their coats yet in silverwastes event. I mean, people posted how they ran it 70 times and still either no coat or not all three. Hence, a grind.

But its better to pick at your “suggestions”. They’re more fun at how grindy they can be!
A ‘quest’ chain? Hm, fun the first time around, maybe. Fun being the keyword as others won’t find it fun, but annoying, long, and maybe boring. Won’t know, depends on the person. But hey, once and its done right? No point in doing it again once you got your item. It’ll unlock the skin, so no point in doing it a second time on an alt, or even on a main. And if you give different choices at the end for either armor type or different weapons, welp, then its grind.

Oh crafting! Everyone loves crafting! Going out to grind for all those materials or grind for armors to salvage. Boy, I can’t wait to see how that would go! Grind grind grind grind….and hunting down the recipe’s and ingredients? You mean going and finding one special event where there would be a whole crowd of people around, and you having to hope you deal enough dmg before the target dies? Or going about and killing random things to hope it drops. Wow, first way will seem like SUCH fun, and the other is….grind grind grind grind….

Rewards for dungeons? Again, vague here, but I assume you mean getting tokens which means…hey everybody! Grind grind grind grind….
Drop from boss chest rng? Grind grind grind grind….
Do it once and done forever? Wait, why would i run it again? Fun? Fun is relative so….

RNG…reasonable….LOL! Grind grind grind grind….

Hard content like Liadri? Well then, lets see…when I did the achieves and the mini, one I got them, I was done with her, never again. No point. Throwing my face against her hoping against the rng spawns time and time again was enough for me. Did it so many times the fun was gone. And though yay at the satisfaction of winning, when I realized how much money I had lost spending tickets when I could’ve been just killing the first boss with all the disabilities and getting better loot and gold. I mean, sure, they could’ve given something other than a mini and a title, maybe a rare weapon skin, but that guy who grinded the first boss seemed to get a better deal. Make the reward repeatable? Hold on a sec while I….grind grind grind grind….

You say farm, others say grind. Actually, just grind!

And run around holding down ctrl (or whatever keybind you made it), looking for a rare spawn? I can see it now…“I’ve been running for hours and can’t find it!” “Hey guys, the rare spawn is located at X!” And everyone runs to it to grab it because of share looting, so yay I got a rare spawn that 100 other people stood around getting too! And if you think making it for just one person, then you just introduced a new type of grind….the Running Simulator Grind!

And do you really, REALLY believe people would be content if stuff was put behind all of this? Did you ignore the posts when Teq was first introduced and three headed worm? People complained it was too hard at the time, until servers, some on day one, began to beat it, and now look at it. They’re farmed. A grind….

Even the Marionette boss, which was a good boss fight, was hard at first, then became easy and farmed even with the two weeks or so (can’t remember correctly), and it became a grind….

No, hard stuff doesn’t remain hard in games nowadays because there are guides, and videos all over the internet telling people tips, tricks, and shortcuts. This is while content is consumed so fast nowadays.

But, that doesn’t matter does it? You’re ok with grind, just long as its not towards gold apparently.

phys.7689:

based on many talks/discussions around this topic, i think the problem may be designing long term rewards. rather than designing one big goal that you have to a lot of effort to achieve, Its better to build shorter term goals, and try to make rewards that feel satisfying whenever you get them.
I disagree, the effort I put in to mjolnir over the course of 6 months felt way more rewarding than any of the ascended gear I have made. I am sure that people who craft legendaries feel the same, I believe that the problem is people who feel Entitled to easy access to everything available. Without challenge then no matter how cool the reward you get is, in the end, it will mean little

long term goals would then tend to be collection of shorter term goals. agree to a point, having a tangible progress in any endeavor is good for motivation

Lets take guild halls, theoretically.
If they make it so you have to gather 100000 wood logs, then you get a guild hall, it will probably feel grindy.
But if they design it so you build each room, while it will take a long time to complete, it will not feel as grindy.
I see what you are saying and think that is exactly the direction they are moving in with the infrastructure they have built for the future precursor crafting and recently with mawdry and star of gratitude I mentioned earlier

just like if the game only had 1 level, and it took 100 hours get enough experience to reach level 2, it would probably feel grindy to a lot of people.
Umm….yeah. So how can a game that has only 1 level have a 100 hour timegate to reach level 2? There isn’t a level 2 in your hypothetical game. This is why I hate analogies on internet forums.

Grind boils down to two things, at least as people are using on these forums:

1. I have to repeat content too long/much to get the reward I want
2. I want reward X, but I don’t like the means necessary to get the reward

As far as #1 goes, every theme park MMO is going to have this struggle between developer and players. Developers are going to try to find a sweet spot where rewards don’t take so long to obtain that a large majority of players would give up, while some players are always going to think that they aren’t getting the rewards fast enough.

As far as #2 goes, this one too boils down to time needed to obtain. I’d bet that most of those who don’t like a “means to get X” (i.e., the content they have to do, or the way they have to do content, like farming gold as opposed to seeking Boss X’s drop) might be more willing to tolerate this situation if they only had to engage with the means once or twice.

Thing is, I don’t know what developers would be able to do with regard to #1. They need to extend the life of the game. Players demand that their MMO keep them engaged for years, and for many hours a day. Also, because their profit model (sub, store or combination) requires game longevity. We know that developers cannot produce new content at the rate that players can burn through it, so they’re going to use rewards that take time to obtain to extend the game’s life.

As far as #2 goes, since this is the OP’s presenting complaint, what could be done is for some items to be put into the game that drop from specific bosses. Well, ANet has done this. However, like every demographic, the OP and those who think like him want more rewards that are obtained as they would like. Meanwhile, other demographics like the “get gold” approach and still other demographics like the “rewards can drop anywhere” approach, specifically because they don’t want to be “forced” into specific content. ANet has to please all of these people, at least to some extent. This makes it inevitable that not every reward that gets put into the game is going to be obtained via the favored means of any one group.

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

based on many talks/discussions around this topic, i think the problem may be designing long term rewards. rather than designing one big goal that you have to a lot of effort to achieve, Its better to build shorter term goals, and try to make rewards that feel satisfying whenever you get them.
I disagree, the effort I put in to mjolnir over the course of 6 months felt way more rewarding than any of the ascended gear I have made. I am sure that people who craft legendaries feel the same, I believe that the problem is people who feel Entitled to easy access to everything available. Without challenge then no matter how cool the reward you get is, in the end, it will mean little

long term goals would then tend to be collection of shorter term goals. agree to a point, having a tangible progress in any endeavor is good for motivation

Lets take guild halls, theoretically.
If they make it so you have to gather 100000 wood logs, then you get a guild hall, it will probably feel grindy.
But if they design it so you build each room, while it will take a long time to complete, it will not feel as grindy.
I see what you are saying and think that is exactly the direction they are moving in with the infrastructure they have built for the future precursor crafting and recently with mawdry and star of gratitude I mentioned earlier

just like if the game only had 1 level, and it took 100 hours get enough experience to reach level 2, it would probably feel grindy to a lot of people.
Umm….yeah. So how can a game that has only 1 level have a 100 hour timegate to reach level 2? There isn’t a level 2 in your hypothetical game. This is why I hate analogies on internet forums.

id probably design mjolinir total acquistion to be more incremental, with various stages and more options to progress it.

as to the last part, i dont know why that would make you hate analogies, i made an error in the description, it would be 2 levels(but only 1 level able to be gained), but the point really is just that when all of your progress points and growth is back loaded, you are almost guanteeing that the path will begin to feel grindy.

80 levels may feel fine, but spread the same 80 levels into fewer points of change/growth/reward and the process feels grindy.

I think anet wants people to enjoy the journey, and the best way to do that is to reward the journey, rewarding only the end diminishes the journey.

Now, this doesnt mean simply breaking up the journey into miles, but placing interesting things along the journey that highlight the journey.

I do think some of their new content is closer to this design, but its still not really the prevalent design structure.

just as an excerise, how i would design mjolinir?

id make you need
1 gift of ascalon
100 orichalcum ingots
50 charged lodestones to create
sleeping mjolinir basically mjolinir with a stone based, no lightning skin

then you need to use
soul of lightning on it, which would use
200 gossamer
50 charged lodestones

this would transform it to mjolinir rising which can now be charged
charging it with charged lodestones makes it lightning up for a limited amount of time depending on how many lodestones you have charged it with already
each time you charge it, the length of its special effect lasts 15 seconds longer.
when you have charged it 250 times, its effect will always be on.
everytime you feed it a lodestone it gives 25% karma and 25% exp boost for the length of its lighting effect (up to an hour)
charging it with skill points changes the intensity of the lightning effect, at zero its barely visible, at 100 its like it is now. the next 100 charges change its hue (color) one charge at a time. so 30 more skill points might be greenish 50 might be yellow 90 might be reddish.

everytime you feed it a skill point it gains the effect of a kill streak booster

I think that type of progression would allow people to enjoy building mjolinir more, still use most of the same materials (i shaved some off, because ehh i dont think there is much gained in collecting 250 orichalcum and gossamer. Also different people would choose different hues for mjolinir which would make it a bit more unique. People would feel rewarded for each skill point, and be able to have the thrill and benefits of kill streak boosters, while they are trying to get exp for skill points.

However, one could still just save up the mats and have a basically similar experience if they wish it.

any how just an example for illustrative purposes

IndigoSundown.5419:

Grind boils down to two things, at least as people are using on these forums:

1. I have to repeat content too long/much to get the reward I want
2. I want reward X, but I don’t like the means necessary to get the reward

As far as #1 goes, every theme park MMO is going to have this struggle between developer and players. Developers are going to try to find a sweet spot where rewards don’t take so long to obtain that a large majority of players would give up, while some players are always going to think that they aren’t getting the rewards fast enough.

As far as #2 goes, this one too boils down to time needed to obtain. I’d bet that most of those who don’t like a “means to get X” (i.e., the content they have to do, or the way they have to do content, like farming gold as opposed to seeking Boss X’s drop) might be more willing to tolerate this situation if they only had to engage with the means once or twice.

Thing is, I don’t know what developers would be able to do with regard to #1. They need to extend the life of the game. Players demand that their MMO keep them engaged for years, and for many hours a day. Also, because their profit model (sub, store or combination) requires game longevity. We know that developers cannot produce new content at the rate that players can burn through it, so they’re going to use rewards that take time to obtain to extend the game’s life.

As far as #2 goes, since this is the OP’s presenting complaint, what could be done is for some items to be put into the game that drop from specific bosses. Well, ANet has done this. However, like every demographic, the OP and those who think like him want more rewards that are obtained as they would like. Meanwhile, other demographics like the “get gold” approach and still other demographics like the “rewards can drop anywhere” approach, specifically because they don’t want to be “forced” into specific content. ANet has to please all of these people, at least to some extent. This makes it inevitable that not every reward that gets put into the game is going to be obtained via the favored means of any one group.

its definately tricky, and definately an inexact science. There isnt going to be a universal always true method, however i think its bad to spread a few rewards across too many hours.

phys.7689:

as to the last part, i dont know why that would make you hate analogies,
Dont think for 1 second you can impact my life in any way, that didn’t make me hate analogies, it simply illustrated why I hate them on forums
i made an error in the description, it would be 2 levels(but only 1 level able to be gained), but the point really is just that when all of your progress points and growth is back loaded, you are almost guanteeing that the path will begin to feel grindy.

80 levels may feel fine, but spread the same 80 levels into fewer points of change/growth/reward and the process feels grindy.

Because it goes into some tangential discussion about a hypothetical situation no one cares about

just as an excerise, how i would design mjolinir?

id make you need
1 gift of ascalon
[Snip]

There is nothing in this game that meets the definition of grind better than the gifts from dungeons.

As to the rest of your thought experiment, interesting idea but there is something that doesn’t sit right with me.

honestly all i will say is this:

Grind exists in every game possible.

you grind for more levels
you grind for skills
you grind for gear
you grind for anything really.

the difference is in the level of grind. many people associate grind with lots of hard work for days on end. for games like WoW that is required. here we have grind for skins primarily, and skins are completely optional. every person has a different level of grind they can handle, some can only stand a little while others can stand a lot.

the mistake here is in the reward. if they really wanted to make a no-grind philosophy then they shouldn’t have introduced ‘legendaries’ yet they have done so. they should have made those skins fairly accessible but they wanted to appeal to those wanting a high-grind lifestyle.

yet at the same time if they made everything low-grind then the game wouldn’t have any replay value at all would it? a conundrum.

what would then be their solution? make legendaries/good skins easier to acquire? make ascended easier to make? remove them? create an alternative method to acquire them, and if so how would it be balanced?

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

as to the last part, i dont know why that would make you hate analogies,
Dont think for 1 second you can impact my life in any way, that didn’t make me hate analogies, it simply illustrated why I hate them on forums
i made an error in the description, it would be 2 levels(but only 1 level able to be gained), but the point really is just that when all of your progress points and growth is back loaded, you are almost guanteeing that the path will begin to feel grindy.

80 levels may feel fine, but spread the same 80 levels into fewer points of change/growth/reward and the process feels grindy.

Because it goes into some tangential discussion about a hypothetical situation no one cares about

just as an excerise, how i would design mjolinir?

id make you need
1 gift of ascalon
[Snip]

There is nothing in this game that meets the definition of grind better than the gifts from dungeons.

As to the rest of your thought experiment, interesting idea but there is something that doesn’t sit right with me.

analogies and hypotheticals are used to test and evaluate conceptual models, but if you dont like them, i will avoid using them when talking to you specifically(if i remember).
anyhow

dungeon tokens meets anets definition of grind, but actually their definition is pretty poor, it doesnt consider the magnitude of repetitions, and it would mean that as long as you have two methods of doing something, it can never be a grind.

That said, anet still has a way out in this case, as you can buy dungeon runs with gold. So i guess even dungeon tokens wouldnt be considered grind by anet, as it has at least two methods of aquisition.

But yeah, as i said, Anet says they want the game to be about the journey, and i think rewarding the journey is probably the best way to highlight that.

phys.7689:

eithinan.9841:

phys.7689:

as to the last part, i dont know why that would make you hate analogies,
Dont think for 1 second you can impact my life in any way, that didn’t make me hate analogies, it simply illustrated why I hate them on forums
i made an error in the description, it would be 2 levels(but only 1 level able to be gained), but the point really is just that when all of your progress points and growth is back loaded, you are almost guanteeing that the path will begin to feel grindy.

80 levels may feel fine, but spread the same 80 levels into fewer points of change/growth/reward and the process feels grindy.

Because it goes into some tangential discussion about a hypothetical situation no one cares about

just as an excerise, how i would design mjolinir?

id make you need
1 gift of ascalon
[Snip]

There is nothing in this game that meets the definition of grind better than the gifts from dungeons.

As to the rest of your thought experiment, interesting idea but there is something that doesn’t sit right with me.

analogies and hypotheticals are used to test and evaluate conceptual models, but if you dont like them, i will avoid using them when talking to you specifically(if i remember).
anyhow

dungeon tokens meets anets definition of grind, but actually their definition is pretty poor, it doesnt consider the magnitude of repetitions, and it would mean that as long as you have two methods of doing something, it can never be a grind.

That said, anet still has a way out in this case, as you can buy dungeon runs with gold. So i guess even dungeon tokens wouldnt be considered grind by anet, as it has at least two methods of aquisition.

But yeah, as i said, Anet says they want the game to be about the journey, and i think rewarding the journey is probably the best way to highlight that.

I agree their definition which the opposing arguments have been based on in this and other threads, is completely disregarding several factors that happen to make the grind worse in this game than others. For example, people keep arguing that you have a choice. Well I’m sorry but unless those who’ve argued choice have actually experienced the whole account lockout of loot or the DR bug that makes whole chests disappear or the mountains of skulls as rewards for every loot drop, there is no choice. People keep forgetting that not everyone has the same access to loot in this game. It’s not like any of the other games out there because they are using things like DR something that many companies did away with years ago because of these types of problems.

Those factors make the grind even worse and completely nullifies any of the arguments of choice and any of the arguments that Anet’s definition of grind matches their game experience and can therefore somehow be used as a picket sign for protests against those of us who prefer that content be content and not busy work, and those of us who prefer that no grind of any kind exist in the titles we enjoy.

So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.

If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes

maddoctor.2738:

So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.

If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes

Because simply put, any changes implemented could easily be torn apart by someone else’s definition of grind. So yes, the thread is pointless, as was the previous one. Anet stated their definition, and are apparently working from there, but because its different than everyone else’s various definitions, its unaccepted, as well as everyone else definitions unaccepted with each other.

So yes, the tail chasing will continue on in this great circle, in which if it was a real thing, I would already be trying to harness it as some limitless power source.

It’s a pity, I was really hoping people could stop trying to get distracted and focus on discussing the matter and what fixes they had in mind. Instead it’s all about tearing it down, and not that much about building something better. Or just trying to score points again.

Someone poke me if there’s a serious attempt at discussing this.