Grind is still grind
Its not the perfect example, because ideally i would tie it more to doing things in the world rather than just items, but its just an example
Honestly, there are two problems with how Ascended was designed.
First, creating it renders your Exotic gear you formerly had obsolete. It’s my opinion it should not be its own creation but instead a growth of the lower-tier gear into something more powerful. It should feel like it was not a result of crafting it, but a result of living it. Infusion in Guild Wars 1 may have been a little lackluster but it absolutely did not render your gear obsolete. It was an extra quality which was added, in a sense of how it felt. (And technologically it was just a flag which could be triggered on your armor, to prevent Spectral Agony from eating you alive.)
So really, it should have been something else to acquire armor and weapons. The trinkets? Those were mostly fine – they represented icons from the past of the world which had transcended commonality into fable. The weapons and armor? They bear names, but it’s just not the same as knowing that Ancient Mursaat Token is a link to the distant past.
There’s the first mistake. It feels . . . lackluster, it doesn’t feel like you earn it. (Mawdrey, mostly, feels earned. The Tempered Spinal Blades feels earned. Ascended armor feels like a chore of steadily refining materials until you reach the breakthrough.)
Second mistake, and this one is much more grievous in my opinionated stance. Ascended gear should never have given higher stats than Exotic, or at least in the open world. They were intended to make it possible to dive higher into Fractals where things get tougher, but really that’s the only place they are needed. And only if infused for Agony Resistance. So what should have been done is more elegant a solution – Ascended Gear gets a bonus % to your stats while your are in the Fractals of the Mists, relative to what level of Fractals you have completed and limited by what level you are attempting.
(So just pulling numbers out of my rectal cavity, but you could have +15% at Level 30 Fractals, but if you went to a Level 5 run it’d scale down to where it wouldn’t be as powerful. And if you got in on a Level 40 Fractal, it’d still only be +15% maximum since 30 is as high as you went. Heck, tie Agony Resistance to how many pieces of gear you’re wearing relative to the highest Level you’ve run – no need to invent Infusions as an upgrade at all.)
So, in Fractals they’d be important . . . but in WvW? In general PvE? It’d be the same power as Exotics. Sidestepping the whole problem with them having a higher power level, so they’re only fully useful in one place . . . and players don’t feel the need to chase them as Best-in-Slot, they can chase them for the skins.
. . . and once more, for the heck of it? Render them dyeable. Not via dyes, use the limited palette of colors we have now and let it be through throwing the dye ingredients (off the Cook list) into the Forge with the weapon. Want to get a neat white greatsword? Throw in the Ascended Greatsword, some Crystals, Snow Truffles, and something else. No need to craft up more Deldrimor Steel Ingots and another Inscription.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
Its not the perfect example, because ideally i would tie it more to doing things in the world rather than just items, but its just an example
Honestly, there are two problems with how Ascended was designed.
First, creating it renders your Exotic gear you formerly had obsolete. It’s my opinion it should not be its own creation but instead a growth of the lower-tier gear into something more powerful. It should feel like it was not a result of crafting it, but a result of living it. Infusion in Guild Wars 1 may have been a little lackluster but it absolutely did not render your gear obsolete. It was an extra quality which was added, in a sense of how it felt. (And technologically it was just a flag which could be triggered on your armor, to prevent Spectral Agony from eating you alive.)
So really, it should have been something else to acquire armor and weapons. The trinkets? Those were mostly fine – they represented icons from the past of the world which had transcended commonality into fable. The weapons and armor? They bear names, but it’s just not the same as knowing that Ancient Mursaat Token is a link to the distant past.
There’s the first mistake. It feels . . . lackluster, it doesn’t feel like you earn it. (Mawdrey, mostly, feels earned. The Tempered Spinal Blades feels earned. Ascended armor feels like a chore of steadily refining materials until you reach the breakthrough.)
Second mistake, and this one is much more grievous in my opinionated stance. Ascended gear should never have given higher stats than Exotic, or at least in the open world. They were intended to make it possible to dive higher into Fractals where things get tougher, but really that’s the only place they are needed. And only if infused for Agony Resistance. So what should have been done is more elegant a solution – Ascended Gear gets a bonus % to your stats while your are in the Fractals of the Mists, relative to what level of Fractals you have completed and limited by what level you are attempting.
(So just pulling numbers out of my rectal cavity, but you could have +15% at Level 30 Fractals, but if you went to a Level 5 run it’d scale down to where it wouldn’t be as powerful. And if you got in on a Level 40 Fractal, it’d still only be +15% maximum since 30 is as high as you went. Heck, tie Agony Resistance to how many pieces of gear you’re wearing relative to the highest Level you’ve run – no need to invent Infusions as an upgrade at all.)
So, in Fractals they’d be important . . . but in WvW? In general PvE? It’d be the same power as Exotics. Sidestepping the whole problem with them having a higher power level, so they’re only fully useful in one place . . . and players don’t feel the need to chase them as Best-in-Slot, they can chase them for the skins.
. . . and once more, for the heck of it? Render them dyeable. Not via dyes, use the limited palette of colors we have now and let it be through throwing the dye ingredients (off the Cook list) into the Forge with the weapon. Want to get a neat white greatsword? Throw in the Ascended Greatsword, some Crystals, Snow Truffles, and something else. No need to craft up more Deldrimor Steel Ingots and another Inscription.
Well i think ascended wasnt really a great execution. The best thing it did was create a strong sink for a tremendous oversupply of item, And while it does add a nice goal, the overall execution, as far as i can see turns a lot of people off in various ways.
like you said, ascended should have been probably made to work with exotics, rather than replace them.
It probably shouldnt have been an item progression, but rather charachter progression. They are kind of doing this now with masteries.
Anyhow, back to the topic of grind, ascendeds current design is a very unappealing form of a long term goal imo. And, i think many players view it as unpleasurable due to feeling very repetitive, time gated, etc.
Op is right. When it comes down to it grind is only what a person feels the need to do even though it bores them. It has nothing to do with what is required to play the game the way it was designed because its all psychological.
If a developer could eliminate grind from a game in every way they most certainly would but its impossible to as grind is just a state of mind. If a person likes to have nice skins in a game or the best items but finds it boring to get them its not only a grind its a failure in whats important to them in their particular game. They may enjoy the leveling as many of us do and the dungeons but they cant have what they want and that’s not any different to people thinking leveling is a grind to get to the end game because that’s what they want from the game.
This is a fact. The concept of eliminating unnecessary grind to allow people to play the game is wrong if they find the the vanity items or best items is whats important to them. To me levelling is a big part of what I like about a game and if done well its great fun and no grind whatsoever. If I play the game and put in a lot of hours why should i struggle to have just some nice stuff just because I dont “WORK” at a particular element of the game. To me its catering to people who find levelling a dislikeable grind but dont mind farming to stoke their ego and so they can claim they deserve the nicest things and the rest of us dont.
The last part may be controversial but in the end to sum it all up in regards to enjoyment of GW2 necessary grind is just a state of mind whether someone stops playing because they hate the leveling or they hate that they cant achieve any of the nicest things or the best things.
I use forums to give my opinions but I mostly avoid discussing over
them due to those less than polite individuals out there and their offensive attitude.
them due to those less than polite individuals out there and their offensive attitude.
Devata, essentially your entire post is boiling down to you don’t like how Anet made their game. You want them to change it to suit your needs, because you don’t like a specific aspect. You consider it to be ‘grind.’ Anet has defined what they meant by ‘no grind’ and that’s really the end of the discussion. You don’t have to like it, you don’t necessarily have to agree, but that’s their approach.
I think the problem with some grind is there is no alternative which Colin said there would be.
Really, the only “no alternative” issue only applies to ascended gear acquisition. And then, only to the armor and weapons, since rings and trinkets can be acquired through 3(?) methods. However, as Colin pointed out, you can do an assortment of activities to acquire the actual crafting materials (which, doesn’t seem to be the issue). In regards to most everything else, yeah, there are alternatives.
Here he was talking about grinding levels
One thing we are fighting hardest against is grind. We don’t want the player to ever have to grind and do something they don’t want to do to progress in the game.
There really isn’t any “grind” to leveling though. That’s the issue. Everything you do gives you experience. There are many options to leveling. Some are more expedient than others, but the option is still there.
Unfortunately this is a big kitten with any and all RPGs though, because they pretty much all require you to “level” in some way in order to move forward. (Not just talking MMOs here, its the same in console games too)
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
First of all I dont play games to suffer, that would be counterproductive to my escapist entertainment. I enjoyed every bit of my playing this game for the rewards I have received. Too many people here are ignoring that the journey is as important as the destination.
“Too many people here are ignoring that the journey is as important as the destination.”
Maybe it’s just the opposite? They do understand the journey to be as important, if not more, as the destination. However they consider the journey to be a grind. What is then the reason for the complain.
This important part should not feel like a grind. It’s to important for that.
While other say ‘The goal you want, that cosmetic’ is optional, does not give any stats. So you should not complain about the journey towards it being a grind (to you).
Devata, essentially your entire post is boiling down to you don’t like how Anet made their game. You want them to change it to suit your needs, because you don’t like a specific aspect. You consider it to be ‘grind.’ Anet has defined what they meant by ‘no grind’ and that’s really the end of the discussion. You don’t have to like it, you don’t necessarily have to agree, but that’s their approach.
Of course you could say that about any complain.
True, the same can be applied to many (maybe not all) complaints leveled on this forum. However, in the case of certain types of complains, Anet has come forward and laid out their thought process or reasons behind doing certain things. Colin has laid out exactly what Anet’s view on “grind” is, and for the most part their definition holds true to the assorted components of the game. You are not required to do just 1 thing repeatedly to achieve the goals like obtaining gear or leveling your character.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I don’t think they are 100% on the money with everything, but for the most part, they do pretty well.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
~
“ You’re against grinding for GOLD ” The problem behind that, is not so much the gold or currency but the fact that you don’t do it directly for the reward. So that drive is gone while it’s all just some currency.
“I mean, the second you put in RNG, you are introducing grind.” Maybe, but it can then be a more reasonable grind per item in stead of one big grind for all of them. That is what you get with currency / gold grind. Want item x, grind gold for it, want the the next item, grind gold for it, the next, grind gold, the next grind gold, the next grind gold.
So in the end it’s one huge never ending grind. While if you have it behind specific content it will be like. Want x, complete that dungeon, want the next, complete that quest-chain, want the next, complete that JP, want the next ill that boss. So it’s not one big grind. See the difference.
“They’re more fun at how grindy they can be!
A ‘quest’ chain? Hm, fun the first time around” A quest chain would be by definition not a grind. You do it once and then unlock the item you want. However there might be 100 different quest (of what some are quest-chains) you can do all rewarding different skins, items and stuff. So when you make sure all quest are not the same it would not be a grind.
“Oh crafting! Everyone loves crafting! Going out to grind for all those materials ” Also that does not have to be true when designed right. Sure some mats can require some farming but should not have to be to bad. Would we go to the WoW example again. For the mats I needed a lot of you usually could simply go to one area to get (for example) that ore. Highest level ore would not be harder to get but be in a higher level area. The thing that would really take time was getting the recipe. But the mats would not be that bad. Of course in GW2 that is not the case at this time, but thats another discussion.
“You mean going and finding one special event where there would be a whole crowd of people around, and you having to hope you deal enough dmg before the target dies?” Just as with the mats also here you are way to much locked in the GW2 way of things. No wonder you see grind everywhere. I would think finding one special events, boss, dungeon and having to complete that to be able to get the recipe.
“Or going about and killing random things to hope it drops.” Not random, specific (in GW2 it usually is random, again your to much locked in the way GW2 makes it’s grind) that would also result is higher drop-rates then when a game drops it from random things all over the place.
That would be the least interesting of all the options I did give but yes I rather have a few items locked behind this then almost all locked behind a gold-grind. That is true.
1/2
2/2
“rewards for dungeons? Again, vague here, but I assume you mean getting tokens which means…hey everybody! Grind grind grind grind….” Tokens are currency.. so again your to much locked in the way GW2 makes it’s grind. No, it could be doable RNG but also simply a reward for completing the dungeon.
“Drop from boss chest rng? Grind grind grind grind….” But still less grind then the more general drop as in GW2. If you make something drop everywhere but you want to keep it rare you need to have extremely low drop-rates. Meaning directly hunting for the items becomes impossible. While when you put it in specific content the drop-rates can be much better reducing the grind needed for it. So it would still be less grind.
“Hard content like Liadri? Well then, lets see…when I did the achieves and the mini, one I got them, I was done with her, never again.” Then again, it’s not the type of content that is the hardest to create. So you could have many different fights like this all rewarding different rewards. Different fights means you are busy but it’s not all the same so not all a grind.
“And do you really, REALLY believe people would be content if stuff was put behind all of this?”
Well why not.. For all the items that are not account-bound the only thing that would change is that you now have the option to do that content to get it. However for those who don’t like it the current option is still there. Those items will end up on the TP and so people will be able to grind gold to buy them just as they do now. (While in that case going directly for them would likely be the most efficient way, not running with a farm train while watching some movie on the second screen, like many people ‘play’ GW2 these days).
“People complained it was too hard at the time,” The complains where mainly that people could not organize an attack because is was in the open world and it would be to hard with ‘pugs’ all around. Still how hard some content would be is yet another question that seems unrelated. People did not complain about the fact that Teq had some items they could not get, or at least I did not see those complains. That would be more relevant to this topic.
“But, that doesn’t matter does it? You’re ok with grind, just long as its not towards gold apparently.” If you would put it like that I guess you could say I can put up with some smaller reasonable farms, but am not oke with one big never ending grind. What in GW2 seems to be currency’s and mainly gold as that is the main way to get most items.
As far as #2 goes, since this is the OP’s presenting complaint, what could be done is for some items to be put into the game that drop from specific bosses. Well, ANet has done this. However, like every demographic, the OP and those who think like him want more rewards that are obtained as they would like. Meanwhile, other demographics like the “get gold” approach and still other demographics like the “rewards can drop anywhere” approach, specifically because they don’t want to be “forced” into specific content. ANet has to please all of these people, at least to some extent. This makes it inevitable that not every reward that gets put into the game is going to be obtained via the favored means of any one group.
“ANet has to please all of these people”. So try and please the groups you mention here? Put all those items behind specific content, don’t make them account-bound. There you go.
Personally I think some items should be account-bound but just to solve your problem.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
Devata, essentially your entire post is boiling down to you don’t like how Anet made their game. You want them to change it to suit your needs, because you don’t like a specific aspect. You consider it to be ‘grind.’ Anet has defined what they meant by ‘no grind’ and that’s really the end of the discussion. You don’t have to like it, you don’t necessarily have to agree, but that’s their approach.
Of course you could say that about any complain.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I don’t think they are 100% on the money with everything, but for the most part, they do pretty well.
However the question at hand (in this thread) is not if they are or are not ‘on the money’. The question is how the current design effects the game, how people experience grind in this game and how they would prefer it instead.
Devata, essentially your entire post is boiling down to you don’t like how Anet made their game. You want them to change it to suit your needs, because you don’t like a specific aspect. You consider it to be ‘grind.’ Anet has defined what they meant by ‘no grind’ and that’s really the end of the discussion. You don’t have to like it, you don’t necessarily have to agree, but that’s their approach.
Of course you could say that about any complain.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I don’t think they are 100% on the money with everything, but for the most part, they do pretty well.
However the question at hand (in this thread) is not if they are or are not ‘on the money’. The question is how the current design effects the game, how people experience grind in this game and how they would prefer it instead.
Those are just academic discussions though. I don’t see them actually leading to changes that Anet would be compelled to make because each person is going to have a different opinion of what the answers to those questions are.
Devata, essentially your entire post is boiling down to you don’t like how Anet made their game. You want them to change it to suit your needs, because you don’t like a specific aspect. You consider it to be ‘grind.’ Anet has defined what they meant by ‘no grind’ and that’s really the end of the discussion. You don’t have to like it, you don’t necessarily have to agree, but that’s their approach.
Of course you could say that about any complain.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I don’t think they are 100% on the money with everything, but for the most part, they do pretty well.
However the question at hand (in this thread) is not if they are or are not ‘on the money’. The question is how the current design effects the game, how people experience grind in this game and how they would prefer it instead.
Those are just academic discussions though. I don’t see them actually leading to changes that Anet would be compelled to make because each person is going to have a different opinion of what the answers to those questions are.
discussions about ideas /perceptions are probably the most useful. Ultra specific ideas, usually wont work with whatever hidden limitations, specifications, and interactions we dont know about.
Devs however can take how people percieve something and general ideas, and work into their framework.
I can see that but from where I sit, that’s quite a bit of wishful thinking that just our input will provide the impetus to change. I think it’s possible to make tweeks here an there (for example, I do think they could ‘fix’ silk and do fix it) but the concept itself of how players interact with the TP is not going to change (the whole grind issue stems from this concept). That drives alot of decisions on how the game works; it’s internal mechanics and how it works as a business as well.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
discussions about ideas /perceptions are probably the most useful. Ultra specific ideas, usually wont work with whatever hidden limitations, specifications, and interactions we dont know about.
Devs however can take how people percieve something and general ideas, and work into their framework.
Everything wont work without specifics ideas althought …
Devata for exampled have proposed items to be earned with long quest + small chance from boses and other ideas
But in reallity how this will work ?
Each Living Story Update will have a different way to get the item ?
(You cant create EXTRA workload to the Dev team , by having them release the Lining Update and 3 WAY to earn the reward… not complate once the Update and guarrantee 100% rewards =/= 2-3% chance to drop will work ..)
Even the idea of Account Bound vs not , will disturb a huge amount of ppl …
One week it will be with the Long Quest ? And the other week it will change ?
But what about the other 7 ppl that dont like the Long Quest and then have to w8 4 weeks , so they can get a n item with the ’’way’’ they like ?
You see that i am MAD bout ’’HIM’’ …..
He gives ‘’general ideas’’ that will hurt the rest and the financial/ability to create Lining Story Updates every 2 week forthe company ……
That why he must ‘’stepped down’’ and hear the majority and what they want ….
The majority will ‘’choose their poison’’’ and the minority will stepped down silently
(edited by Killthehealersffs.8940)
analogies and hypotheticals are used to test and evaluate conceptual models, but if you dont like them, i will avoid using them when talking to you specifically(if i remember).
anyhow
Accurate analogies yes, 99.9% of them on this forum misrepresent the subjects. The only one that I have seen in 2+ years here that was remotely accurate was the one about 50$ on the ground and the TP. Thanks for that but it doesn’t really matter because ill just [snip] itdungeon tokens meets anets definition of grind, but actually their definition is pretty poor, it doesnt consider the magnitude of repetitions, and it would mean that as long as you have two methods of doing something, it can never be a grind.
Actually they don’t meet the Anet definition because the lack of those tokens does not prevent you from participating in any content available, not…That said, anet still has a way out in this case, as you can buy dungeon runs with gold. So i guess even dungeon tokens wouldnt be considered grind by anet, as it has at least two methods of aquisition.
…because of this.But yeah, as i said, Anet says they want the game to be about the journey, and i think rewarding the journey is probably the best way to highlight that.
I agree and so does anet that for long term goals there should be a tangible progression to the end reward. But there is a difference between that observable tangible progression and getting rewarded for progressing towards a reward.
I agree their definition which the opposing arguments have been based on in this and other threads, is completely disregarding several factors that happen to make the grind worse in this game than others. For example, people keep arguing that you have a choice.
My arguements mostly center around the barrier to content aspect of anets definition, but as for choice…
Well I’m sorry but unless those who’ve argued choice have actually experienced the whole account lockout of loot or the DR bug that makes whole chests disappear or the mountains of skulls as rewards for every loot drop, there is no choice.
…I showed you how to avoid DR and the mountains of grey items. to avoid that all you need to do is change zones and do different content that offers up rewards from a similar loot table. I start feeling like im getting DR farming t6 bloods in southsun, I go to frostgorge and fight trolls, or cursed shore and fight skelk, griffons, and bulls. I was there at penitent WP when they instituted DR in the game code RIP Blix farm. the thing is you just need to go to another zone to avoid DR
People keep forgetting that not everyone has the same access to loot in this game.
False, everyone at lvl 80 in rare gear can go get any material they want /wiki [item] and go. The only thing that this doesn’t apply to are t2 and t3 fractal mats the shards and globs I think
Those factors are non existent
“People keep forgetting that not everyone has the same access to loot in this game.”
Please explain this statement more and what you mean by it.
Devata, essentially your entire post is boiling down to you don’t like how Anet made their game. You want them to change it to suit your needs, because you don’t like a specific aspect. You consider it to be ‘grind.’ Anet has defined what they meant by ‘no grind’ and that’s really the end of the discussion. You don’t have to like it, you don’t necessarily have to agree, but that’s their approach.
Of course you could say that about any complain.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I don’t think they are 100% on the money with everything, but for the most part, they do pretty well.
However the question at hand (in this thread) is not if they are or are not ‘on the money’. The question is how the current design effects the game, how people experience grind in this game and how they would prefer it instead.
Those are just academic discussions though. I don’t see them actually leading to changes that Anet would be compelled to make because each person is going to have a different opinion of what the answers to those questions are.
Those are just academic discussions though. I don’t see them actually leading to changes that Anet would be compelled to make because each person is going to have a different opinion of what the answers to those questions are. [/quote]
People will likely have different opinions about that indeed, however that does not mean there are no ways to please more people.
I think that in fact the main reason for Anet to have gone on with the current approach is not so much because they don’t have any idea how to make it better. I think it’s more because of the monetization approach that is a bigger motivation for them then willingness to solve the problem. (but maybe it’s also a little bid of denial of the problem? When I looked at Colins reaction to Angry Joe’s comment about grind)
I mean, when getting items feels like a grind and when gold is the best way to get most items, there is more reasons for people to buy gems to convert to gold. And of course any item that is put into the cash-shop also results in more grind.
That is why I always refer to my solution for that problem, the expansion focus in stead of the cash-shop focus. So being more in line B2P model.
So what is important as well is to analyses the reason why it’s here the way it is. You think it has to do because they can’t cater to everybody, I think this focus the main reason, some people think it’s because of Anets attempt to have less grind, that resulted in more grind (while I think that can be partly true, at the same time I don’t think that is what is holding them back for doing anything about it).
discussions about ideas /perceptions are probably the most useful. Ultra specific ideas, usually wont work with whatever hidden limitations, specifications, and interactions we dont know about.
Devs however can take how people percieve something and general ideas, and work into their framework.
Everything wont work without specifics ideas althought …
Devata for exampled have proposed items to be earned with long quest + small chance from boses and other ideas
But in reallity how this will work ?
Each Living Story Update will have a different way to get the item ?
(You cant create EXTRA workload to the Dev team , by having them release the Lining Update and 3 WAY to earn the reward… not complate once the Update and guarrantee 100% rewards =/= 2-3% chance to drop will work ..)
Even the idea of Account Bound vs not , will disturb a huge amount of ppl …One week it will be with the Long Quest ? And the other week it will change ?
But what about the other 7 ppl that dont like the Long Quest and then have to w8 4 weeks , so they can get a n item with the ’’way’’ they like ?You see that i am MAD bout ’’HIM’’ …..
He gives ‘’general ideas’’ that will hurt the rest and the financial/ability to create Lining Story Updates every 2 week forthe company ……That why he must ‘’stepped down’’ and hear the majority and what they want ….
The majority will ‘’choose their poison’’’ and the minority will stepped down silently
Yeah, my suggestions had indeed not much to do with the LS. I see the LS more as some story telling that I do not care much about. However I still do not see your point as to why it would not work in a LS, especially now the LS is re-playable.
Or do you mean how the expansion vs cash-shop would leave less room for the LS? Of course the LS itself has been moving away from this 2 weeks idea because people did not like what they got. It’s now one bigger break of about 4 months, then 4 episodes released once every two weeks and then another break about 4 months? So that already moved closed to the one expansion a year I talk about.
Not this again…
1. Post in that thread then if you want to continue it, why make a new one?
2. Grind for cosmetic items is optional
3. No, I did not read your post
4. /threadIf you do not feel the need to read, then also do not post your unfounded (not based on what was said, as you did not read it) comment.
Didnt bother reading OP either. Too long for a complaint. Point is, they said that there is no grind in the game outside what YOU make for yourself. Dungeon armor? YOU wanted it, anet isnt forcing it. Ascended armor for top tier fractals? YOU wanted it, anet isnt forcing either the armor or fractals. Granted, by the time you get to top tier fractals, it probably took you the same time as it would to even craft your armor. Legendary stuff? YOU wanted it.
See the pattern? Anything in this game that does not require a tier-based upgrade (ie fractals) can be done in full exotics (which you should be able to craft a full level 80 set of by that level) or lower. In fact, ascended stuff, as a whole, gives such a miniscule bonus that you dont NEED it outside of it’s capacity to give agony resistance.
World completion? Optional. Max bag space? Optional. Buying outfits? Optional. Buying BL keys? Optional. Getting full exo gear for level 80? Somewhat optional and capable of completion from just playing normally.
All grind you make, is made by you personally in your own head.
Everything that has to do with fractals is a grind. Ascended gear is literally only wanted for fractals and speed clearing dungeons which it’s only marginally better then exotic.
For fractals it’s required for it being the only gear to stick the insanely grindy offensive slots.
Agony resistance is a massive and worthless grind. It’s the largest most useless grind I’ve seen in an mmo. It’s a grind to satisfy a stupidly useless secondary effect of agony resistance. Thats it, gated for the pure sake of satisfying an artificial difficulty factor.
Disclaimer: Under no circumstance should you take this seriously.
@Devata
So, here’s what I am understanding.
Everything being a gold grind. You can almost buy everything and anything you want if you grind for gold. Didn’t get a specific item from an event due to RNG? Welp, at least the gold I earned opening all those bags and selling the junk allowed me to buy it off the TP, because people flooded it. So, I AM doing content and earning items behind said content.
So wait….why is this bad again? There are certain dungeons and areas that already have it you need a special currency for some items, or RNG drops, they are already there, it IS in the game and they ARE extremely rare sometimes.
But why is “grinding” for gold bad again? “Hey, there is an item on the TP I want, I wonder where it drops? Oh, I have to keep killing this type of mob over and over again hoping the RNG gods will bless me with the drop.” Sure, and the RNG may grant that person their wish, or it may not and thus a session of play time could be considered wasted by that player for running in circles, doing the same thing over and over.
Meanwhile…
“Hey, there is an item on the TP I want. Well, I don’t have the gold right now, I’ll just play how I want, I earn money that way.” And off he goes, doing whatever events or dungeons or pvp or wvw, etc and just enjoying the game. If he wants the item faster, he may look towards areas that offer more loot, or he could just..play the game.
Now sure, there needs to be some uniqueness with weapon skins that drop only in certain dungeons or areas, or rare items, and they are already in the game, behind the RNG.
But with almost everything being able to be put on the TP….I can practically do whatever I want, and I am automatically working towards my goal. Why is this bad? Why should limits be suddenly placed where now I have to attain a different currency suddenly, go on a quest that I don’t want to do, or complete and activity I hate? If there is no other choice, and I really do want the item, I’ll suck it up and do it, but not enjoy it. But if there is an optional way, a different way like..buying it with gold, then I’m going to play how I want and be able to get it while still having fun.
You think so much being behind gold is a bad thing? No, its a GOOD thing. Its giving the players choices in what they want to do when they log on, because unless they are sitting in LA roleplaying, or chatting in guild, they aren’t earning gold. Just playing this game earns you money. Some know they best spots to earn it, and if you are in a hurry, then you would look up those spots, others aren’t.
So you can go ahead and run your campaign against gold, as you clearly aren’t against grind. You support grind.
Grind is when progression ceases to be a rewarding experience and becomes a job.
I’ve dealt with all manner of time gates in my time playing MMOs and when a grind is implemented it’s a huge turn off but not just that it makes the company lose money because they lose huge groups of players when they do that. Every major AAA MMO that’s come out since 2011 has suddenly lost players directly after they implemented a grind of some kind. Every single one!
So when I see players on these forums trying to argue that there’s no grind here I have to point out not only the empty zones where it constantly asks you to be placed somewhere else in the game but also the amount of money they’ve lost in their last quarterly gains report. The evidence is there whether people like it or not, grind harms games, HoT is the chance to remedy that situation. Nogrind = moreplayers = moreprofit. All other statements about the issue are irrelevant. From a business standpoint to not remove the grind would mean the game would remain at mediocre sales because not fixing it would mean that even if they have great sales for the expansion post sales gains would dwindle again.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
Not this again…
1. Post in that thread then if you want to continue it, why make a new one?
2. Grind for cosmetic items is optional
3. No, I did not read your post
4. /threadIf you do not feel the need to read, then also do not post your unfounded (not based on what was said, as you did not read it) comment.
Didnt bother reading OP either. Too long for a complaint. Point is, they said that there is no grind in the game outside what YOU make for yourself. Dungeon armor? YOU wanted it, anet isnt forcing it. Ascended armor for top tier fractals? YOU wanted it, anet isnt forcing either the armor or fractals. Granted, by the time you get to top tier fractals, it probably took you the same time as it would to even craft your armor. Legendary stuff? YOU wanted it.
See the pattern? Anything in this game that does not require a tier-based upgrade (ie fractals) can be done in full exotics (which you should be able to craft a full level 80 set of by that level) or lower. In fact, ascended stuff, as a whole, gives such a miniscule bonus that you dont NEED it outside of it’s capacity to give agony resistance.
World completion? Optional. Max bag space? Optional. Buying outfits? Optional. Buying BL keys? Optional. Getting full exo gear for level 80? Somewhat optional and capable of completion from just playing normally.
All grind you make, is made by you personally in your own head.
“Point is, they said that there is no grind in the game outside what YOU make for yourself. ” If you would have read it.. you would know that was not the point.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
From a business standpoint to not remove the grind would mean the game would remain at mediocre sales because not fixing it would mean that even if they have great sales for the expansion post sales gains would dwindle again.
. . . yeah, no. That’s not it at all, and it’s a very narrow view.
The sales are going to dwindle again because, and you should have thought of this, more people will own the game/expansion and it will reach saturation. Grind isn’t going to be the culprit there.
As well, worth saying again – there is a reason grind is in the game. It does serve a function. Without understanding that and putting something else in to replicate that function, removing the grind is damaging the game.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.
Check my proposals then:
1) Make Account Bound gear party bound
2) Offer progressively better rewards, the more types of a particular content you do
3) Silverwastes-like MF buff from Events everywhere
Also, fixing the rewards vs difficulty that is rather bad in this game, can help reduce the grind a lot. Harder content should give more/better rewards, so players who repeat the easiest “farms” shouldn’t get much.
In this game it’s more profitable to run around SW in a chest farm for a couple of hours, than doing dungeon paths in the same time. It’s horrific and the main source of “Grind” yet I see players asking to reduce DR! Reduce (or remove) DR so they can farm the same skelk over over for Blood? How is that solving the grind issue? It enhances grind, because that particular content becomes the superior one in getting blood!
MORE DR is needed for brainless farms, and MORE rewards for harder content. Only then the idea of “grind” can be removed.
@Devata
So, here’s what I am understanding.~ snip for space
So you can go ahead and run your campaign against gold, as you clearly aren’t against grind. You support grind.
“Didn’t get a specific item from an event due to RNG? ” It’s more that you really can’t do a specific events to get a specific item. (for most items). Most items are not locked behind specific content with a doable Rng but locked behind anything with extreme, extreme low RNG or are locked behind something like the cash-shop. Resulting in grinding for gold to be the only option if you want to work towards getting that item.
“So you can go ahead and run your campaign against gold, as you clearly aren’t against grind. You support grind.” It’s not a campaign against gold (or currency). It’s a request to also be able to directly work towards items instead of only having the ‘grind for gold’ option for most items. (If hunting down those items is what you like).
You say.. ’but then you also repeat content and so what you (I) suggest is still grind (what is only true for the Rng options, I also gave none-rng options) but that are smaller grinds then the one big gold grind there is now.
So it’s still less grind. Smaller chunks of grind and items locked behind content that is not a grind at all (like quest x rewards y), versus the grind for gold for most items now.
So the end result is still less grind. My examples don’t completely eliminate it no, that’s true.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.
Check my proposals then:
1) Make Account Bound gear party bound
2) Offer progressively better rewards, the more types of a particular content you do
3) Silverwastes-like MF buff from Events everywhereAlso, fixing the rewards vs difficulty that is rather bad in this game, can help reduce the grind a lot. Harder content should give more/better rewards, so players who repeat the easiest “farms” shouldn’t get much.
In this game it’s more profitable to run around SW in a chest farm for a couple of hours, than doing dungeon paths in the same time. It’s horrific and the main source of “Grind” yet I see players asking to reduce DR! Reduce (or remove) DR so they can farm the same skelk over over for Blood? How is that solving the grind issue? It enhances grind, because that particular content becomes the superior one in getting blood!
MORE DR is needed for brainless farms, and MORE rewards for harder content. Only then the idea of “grind” can be removed.
I’ve always thought #2 was quite a good balance between luck and free loot for any game. Requires quite a big database to handle the # of chances for each encounter on an account though.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.
Check my proposals then:
1) Make Account Bound gear party bound
2) Offer progressively better rewards, the more types of a particular content you do
3) Silverwastes-like MF buff from Events everywhereAlso, fixing the rewards vs difficulty that is rather bad in this game, can help reduce the grind a lot. Harder content should give more/better rewards, so players who repeat the easiest “farms” shouldn’t get much.
In this game it’s more profitable to run around SW in a chest farm for a couple of hours, than doing dungeon paths in the same time. It’s horrific and the main source of “Grind” yet I see players asking to reduce DR! Reduce (or remove) DR so they can farm the same skelk over over for Blood? How is that solving the grind issue? It enhances grind, because that particular content becomes the superior one in getting blood!
MORE DR is needed for brainless farms, and MORE rewards for harder content. Only then the idea of “grind” can be removed.
I’ve always thought #2 was quite a good balance between luck and free loot for any game. Requires quite a big database to handle the # of chances for each encounter on an account though.
At first it should work for Dungeon paths at least. It would be a good start and then start affecting other aspects of the gameplay, like World Bosses. But at least for dungeons, it will make all dungeon paths important, not just the easiest/fastest ones, offering way more options for players.
The alternative, to put specific loots on specific dungeon paths has the completely opposite effect, limiting player choice and making the game feel more grindy. It’s already happening with some of the unique dungeon rewards (for the Exotic Hunter collection)
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
No, for the items that are not account-bound you can still grind the gold just as people do now if that is what they like. But now there is ALSO the option to work more directly for the items, hunt them down. (play how you want). In stead of grinding gold being the only option when you want to directly work towards an item.
(edited by Devata.6589)
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
No, for the items that are not account-bound you can still grind the gold just as people do know if that is what they like. But now there is ALSO the option to work more directly for the items, hunt them down. (play how you want),
So just like how the unique dungeon skins work? No thanks.
Making harder content more rewarding would solve all those issues without forcing players to run content they don’t want for items they want.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.
How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.
It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.
Yeah, my suggestions had indeed not much to do with the LS. I see the LS more as some story telling that I do not care much about. However I still do not see your point as to why it would not work in a LS, especially now the LS is re-playable.
Or do you mean how the expansion vs cash-shop would leave less room for the LS? Of course the LS itself has been moving away from this 2 weeks idea because people did not like what they got. It’s now one bigger break of about 4 months, then 4 episodes released once every two weeks and then another break about 4 months? So that already moved closed to the one expansion a year I talk about.
You cant gate everything around the LS achiv panel .
Because some ppl cant be online every 2 weeks to unlock the LS episode and they blame the company for P2W (like some other ppl) and moan at the forums about it .
Also if in order to do the Living story Update you need 1,5-2 hours if you spent you ime casualy/smell the flower/read all the dialogs-clues .
If again they put the rewards in the LS achiv panel , if ppl make a mistake in their original run > they have to redo it from the start .
Aint that again Grind for other ppl ?
That why they are rewarding 2 Achendant Rampager rings in the LS episode 5 and 8 and the Carapace Armor + Illuminasense Gear in the Silverwaste .
They have already using this ’’idea’’ that you are all trying to promote .
But again you simply wants more things /more Grind ingame ….
With the same pattern , but with increased Quality .
That why i am Mad with most ppl …. you are trying to promote already used ideas to reduce YOUR grind
(edited by Killthehealersffs.8940)
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
No, for the items that are not account-bound you can still grind the gold just as people do know if that is what they like. But now there is ALSO the option to work more directly for the items, hunt them down. (play how you want),
So just like how the unique dungeon skins work? No thanks.
Making harder content more rewarding would solve all those issues without forcing players to run content they don’t want for items they want.
How are you forcing, if the option do all the content you like to grind for gold (the thing some people here are talking so much about when defending the grind) is still there. Sure working directly for it would then likely become the most optimal way, not brainlessly following some train. But you could still do the train (while I would think the number of people grinding and so the number of trains would drop).
“So just like how the unique dungeon skins work?” You mean the ones you buy with tokens? No first of all those are tokens. While a token system could be oke to earn something along the way, items people would really want should not be behind something like tokes (that is just another currency). Secondly, those skins are soul-bound.
I guess more like “Mini Tequatl the Sunless”, but if you do that everywhere, and not behind some content that people grind (Like Twq) because it has overall good loot, then it means you can start hunting down items in the world and grinding is not the only or most optimal way anymore.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.
How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.
It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.
I want them to solve the “you can still grind gold” part first if you don’t mind, solving the terrible reward vs risk ration in the game.
I remember a game that used a similar system to what you are proposing. It didn’t have a cash shop either, and was based on expansions. It also had some insane grinding to get what you ever wanted. It’s called Guild Wars 1, you might know it. I don’t want that type of system ever again.
From what you post, I take it you don’t play PVP, or WvW, or run dungeons / fractals. You only run random open world PVE and want different types of events in open world PVE to give unique rewards, how is that going to work with other gameplay types?
Oh they can grind for the gold right? How is that solving the grind issue itself then? You want to solve the grind by adding new options for yourself to reduce it. I want options to reduce the grind for everyone, you are looking at yourself only (and anyone who thinks the same way as you)
Yeah, my suggestions had indeed not much to do with the LS. I see the LS more as some story telling that I do not care much about. However I still do not see your point as to why it would not work in a LS, especially now the LS is re-playable.
Or do you mean how the expansion vs cash-shop would leave less room for the LS? Of course the LS itself has been moving away from this 2 weeks idea because people did not like what they got. It’s now one bigger break of about 4 months, then 4 episodes released once every two weeks and then another break about 4 months? So that already moved closed to the one expansion a year I talk about.
You cant gate everything around the LS achiv panel .
Because some ppl cant be online every 2 weeks to unlock the LS episode and they blame the company for P2W (like some other ppl) and moan at the forums about it .Also if in order to do the Living story Update you need 1,5-2 hours if you spent you ime casualy/smell the flower/read all the dialogs-clues .
If again they put the rewards in the LS achiv panel , if ppl make a mistake in their original run > they have to redo it from the start .
Aint that again Grind for other ppl ?That why they are rewarding 2 Achendant Rampager rings in the LS episode 5 and 8 and the Carapace Armor + Illuminasense Gear in the Silverwaste .
They have already using this ’’idea’’ that you are all trying to promote .
But again you simply wants more things /more Grind ingame ….
With the same pattern , but with increased Quality .That why i am Mad with most ppl …. you are trying to promote already used ideas to reduce YOUR grind
“You cant gate everything around the LS achiv panel.” Like I said “my suggestions had indeed not much to do with the LS ”, so I am not talking about gating everything around LS. You could do what I say in the LS but that isn’t really what I talk about.
If there are all these things all over the world I would not even need the LS to keep me busy.
Sure the idea is already used in some cases, but it only works if you do it with most items, not with a few while most are still behind the gold grind. And sure it would reduce my grind (well I don’t grind) and that of all people who like to hunt down items. However at the same time my suggestion does not change anything for those who prefer the gold grind. So what’s the problem?
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
No, for the items that are not account-bound you can still grind the gold just as people do know if that is what they like. But now there is ALSO the option to work more directly for the items, hunt them down. (play how you want),
So just like how the unique dungeon skins work? No thanks.
Making harder content more rewarding would solve all those issues without forcing players to run content they don’t want for items they want.
How are you forcing, if the option do all the content you like to grind for gold (the thing some people here are talking so much about when defending the grind) is still there. Sure working directly for it would then likely become the most optimal way, not brainlessly following some train. But you could still do the train (while I would think the number of people grinding and so the number of trains would drop).
If I don’t want to run this new content that gives the item I want, then I still have to grind. So for people who are into other activities than the ones that give what they want, your proposal DOES ABSOLUTELY nothing to reduce their grind. It only affects you and anyone that thinks like you. I’d rather they reduce the grind for everyone by changing the whole reward system instead of adding rewards in content.
“So just like how the unique dungeon skins work?” You mean the ones you buy with tokens? No first of all those are tokens. While a token system could be oke to earn something along the way, items people would really want should not be behind something like tokes (that is just another currency). Secondly, those skins are soul-bound.
No I’m talking about the unique exotic rewards in dungeons that can also be sold on the TP. Usually they are parts of the Exotic Hunter collection. Is that how you envision getting items through content?
I think a lot of this has to do with your mindset while playing the game
I love building ascended weapons but it’s not a top priority and I manage to poop one out every week and a half to two weeks just playing the game. With this mindset ascended weapons and even armor aren’t really a grind.
I started a new Mesmer. I play 90% WvW and I can’t stand Pve so I go to EotM a pop birthday boosters and run in a circle. I dedicate 90-100% of my play time to this until she is 80. With this mindset leveling is a grind.
I’m not going to claim that there is no grind at all in this game but it could be a LOT worse.
Kaa Mchorror NSP grenadier [hayt]
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.
How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.
It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.
I want them to solve the “you can still grind gold” part first if you don’t mind, solving the terrible reward vs risk ration in the game.
I remember a game that used a similar system to what you are proposing. It didn’t have a cash shop either, and was based on expansions. It also had some insane grinding to get what you ever wanted. It’s called Guild Wars 1, you might know it. I don’t want that type of system ever again.
From what you post, I take it you don’t play PVP, or WvW, or run dungeons / fractals. You only run random open world PVE and want different types of events in open world PVE to give unique rewards, how is that going to work with other gameplay types?
Oh they can grind for the gold right? How is that solving the grind issue itself then? You want to solve the grind by adding new options for yourself to reduce it. I want options to reduce the grind for everyone, you are looking at yourself only (and anyone who thinks the same way as you)
I do like WvW and I like guild-missions, and I like JP’s and I like hunting down items.
Also this thread allows for people to give their solutions. I indeed just give mine based around the problem I see. That does not mean you are not able to give your solution, maybe they could both be used.
How to earn rewards if you play WvW. Well best example for that is my suggestion in the CDI about guild-halls. What you do is that you put items behind content that does match. Like lets say you want to get a portal to a the Eternal Battleground for in your guild-hall. What you would have to do with the guild is hold SM in that map for x time. (as an example). Because the item matches with the content it’s already more likely that the person who likes the item also likes the content while that is no grantee obviously.
This is a ‘guild-hall’ example but you can do similar things with with personal rewards.
Of course that means that if you would want the flying carpet (that would then be locked behind some content in GW2) and you only want to do WvW, the only option would still be to grind gold. My solution does indeed not solve that problem, but if you have a solution for that feel free to post it here.
“solving the terrible reward vs risk ration in the game.” I do think btw that what I suggest would solve this for a big part. While you could at the same time lower the overall general rewards (junk / gold) and try to balance general gain more around how hard content is.
However when you can directly work towards an item, grinding is not the most optimal way anymore. Doing it directly is.. well until people would start farming that, however then the prices would drop, meaning they would not earn enough with it meaning they would need move to something else… So just running with some train is then not the most optimal way of doing things anymore.
The content that is in frond of an item would for be a big part determine the value of an item and so it would help to balance the reward vs risk.
(edited by Devata.6589)
However at the same time my suggestion does not change anything for those who prefer the gold grind. So what’s the problem?
Again you dont simply understand and dont know the cost of the LS .
Your suggestion will hurt the majority of the population that love the 2-week LS .
You say over and over again that they must sell more 1 year x-pack if they money ….
We dont how much money they have been lent to create the GW2 and how each money they must pay back every 3 months + how much their salary they must pay for those 350 ppl + how much the next expanion will cost .
Now you want to add 2-week LS cost ontop all of that ?
Can you link me some schrrens of your account plz ?
(this is the 3rd time asking)
Agin you want more things to do ingame
And with increasing the hunting/grinding you will get more gold without knowing it > where you can buy the gem store items ……
(edited by Killthehealersffs.8940)
Of course that means that if you would want the flying carpet (that would then be locked behind some content in GW2) and you only want to do WvW, the only option would still be to grind gold. My solution does indeed not solve that problem, but if you have a solution for that feel free to post it here.
There is one problem with putting most items on the TP (other than getting them through content)
If you make everything available through specific content but not make it bound (account or soul) it completely devalues the item itself. Just take a look at any Legendary. From “prestige” items they are now a “who grinded/farmed more or used RL cash” test instead.
What type of content could reward a flying carpet???
So just running with some train is then not the most optimal way of doing things anymore.
If only Anet ever manage to do that… Sadly, if you look at SW, they don’t seem to “get it” yet.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
No, for the items that are not account-bound you can still grind the gold just as people do know if that is what they like. But now there is ALSO the option to work more directly for the items, hunt them down. (play how you want),
So just like how the unique dungeon skins work? No thanks.
Making harder content more rewarding would solve all those issues without forcing players to run content they don’t want for items they want.
How are you forcing, if the option do all the content you like to grind for gold (the thing some people here are talking so much about when defending the grind) is still there. Sure working directly for it would then likely become the most optimal way, not brainlessly following some train. But you could still do the train (while I would think the number of people grinding and so the number of trains would drop).
If I don’t want to run this new content that gives the item I want, then I still have to grind. So for people who are into other activities than the ones that give what they want, your proposal DOES ABSOLUTELY nothing to reduce their grind. It only affects you and anyone that thinks like you. I’d rather they reduce the grind for everyone by changing the whole reward system instead of adding rewards in content.
“So just like how the unique dungeon skins work?” You mean the ones you buy with tokens? No first of all those are tokens. While a token system could be oke to earn something along the way, items people would really want should not be behind something like tokes (that is just another currency). Secondly, those skins are soul-bound.
No I’m talking about the unique exotic rewards in dungeons that can also be sold on the TP. Usually they are parts of the Exotic Hunter collection. Is that how you envision getting items through content?
If the rng would not be to absurd yes that would be one example of it.
And like I said, I do not solve any problem with my suggestion, I simply solve a part, add one new option to the table. If you really don’t want to do that content then getting gold would still be the only option yes. But again, feel free to give your solution for that. One suggestion does not mean it excludes other suggestion / solutions. That is what this thread is about.
Talking about the types of grind, how they effect the game and how to solve it.
(edited by Devata.6589)
And like I said, I do not solve any problem with my suggestion, I simply solve a part, add one new option to the table. If you really don’t want to do that content then getting gold would still be the only option yes. But again, feel free to give your solution for that. One suggestion does does mean it excludes other suggestion / solutions. That is what this thread is about.
I guess you are right about that. There can be more than one available solution indeed.
So this thread is still all about arguing what is grind and what is not, arguing if GW2 is a grindy game or not and nothing about discussing changes to any of the game systems.
If you continue to debate what grind is, even though you know what the developers themselves feel about it, this one should get a lock soon. 3 pages and still no proposals for changes
I did see many proposals. Mine was putting items behind content.
So instead of allowing players to get whatever they want by doing whatever they want (play how you want?) you want to lock content behind specific content and have an impossible grind behind that content?
Yes, that’s pretty much it … the traditional MMO approach to getting loot. WE’ve already went over this in that LAST thread. The proposals I’ve seen so far simply reduce player’s ability to choose content; they don’t reduce grind at all.
How does is reduce player’s ability to choose content if all it does is ADD one new option? Working towards is directly. Again, as long as they are not account-bound you can still grind gold for it if that is what you like.
It would only be true for the items that are account-bound. But thats already the case with some items.
But the player IS working towards the item. By playing whatever they want, they are earning gold, the currency towards the item. Why does a brand new currency need to be implemented that would only come from one other specific source? How does even ADDING a new currency reduce grind? It DOESN’T. You are just shifting the grind to something else. And if you believe anet would make the token method faster, they are going to try and make it equal to other methods. In other words, the same amount of time. So that makes adding a new currency pointless once again.
You aren’t talking about reducing grind, all you have been doing is trying to actual make the grind either more annoying, or restricted.
However at the same time my suggestion does not change anything for those who prefer the gold grind. So what’s the problem?
Again you dont simply understand and dont know the cost of the LS .
Your suggestion will hurt the majority of the population that love the 2-week LS .
You say over and over again that they must sell more 1 year x-pack if they money ….We dont how much money they have been lent to create the GW2 and how each money they must pay back every 3 months + how much their salary they must pay for those 350 ppl + how much the next expanion will cost .
Now you want to add 2-week LS cost ontop all of that ?Can you link me some schrrens of your account plz ?
(this is the 3rd time asking)Agin you want more things to do ingame
And with increasing the hunting/grinding you will get more gold without knowing it > where you can buy the gem store items ……
“Now you want to add 2-week LS cost ontop all of that ?” Where did I say that?
And about cost and income. GW1 managed to earn about 100% of it’s original sale with every expansion is released.
If GW2 would have earned 100% of it’s original sale one a year, they would have earned more money by now then they did.
While I think GW2 did do some irreversible damage with the current approach meaning HoT will likely not be able to earn the same amount of money as the original game. However I think if they would have gone for that expansion approach form the beginning (and so could have also designed the game differently) I think they could have earned that much. And it would then also still be the best option for the future imho. Still we never know any of this for sure as we do not life in the parallel universe where this would be true. All we could do is look at the numbers we do have.
“Can you link me some schrrens of your account plz ?” screens of my account? What do you mean, and what do you wanna know / see?
Still you dont understand that things change …
the cost to create GW1 vs GW2 is different and how much cost to maintain it , where everything a painted on hand and have other mechanics that the first game didnt have
Heck they have more ppl working atm , rather in the past …
Of course that means that if you would want the flying carpet (that would then be locked behind some content in GW2) and you only want to do WvW, the only option would still be to grind gold. My solution does indeed not solve that problem, but if you have a solution for that feel free to post it here.
There is one problem with putting most items on the TP (other than getting them through content)
If you make everything available through specific content but not make it bound (account or soul) it completely devalues the item itself. Just take a look at any Legendary. From “prestige” items they are now a “who grinded/farmed more or used RL cash” test instead.
What type of content could reward a flying carpet???
Partly true, that is why I personally would not be in favor of not making any of them account-bound. That is more like a trait-off to allow those who would want to do other content / grind for gold to still be able to get the reward that way.
Still, when items are behind specific content that other then that item have no good reason to be grinded, the item would not lose much value. The prestige would be gone but the market would not be flooded with it.
The legendary is not a very good example as that is also something you can’t really work directly towards simply because multiple of the needed ingredients you can’t work directly towards. Like the precursor and some of the mats.
“What type of content could reward a flying carpet???” Depends.. it’s pure cosmetic, it looks nice but not really aggressive (I would put aggressive rewards more in something like WvW). So maybe a dungeon or the Goemm’s Lab JP (as thats high in the sky, and the carpet would let you fly.. ). It could then be a guaranteed reward or a more doable rng like 5%.