Grind is still grind
About it still being a grind but a different one. As for the RNG part that is of course personal but at the very least it’s cut in smaller chunks and then for the not RNG part it’s something you do ones and be rewarded, I don’t think that fits any definition of grind. And people can then work directly towards the items.
It fits my definition of grind, which is “I am repeating this lousy task hoping for that item to drop so I can get on with my life”.
Do I need it? Probably not. Could I get by without it? Probably so. Why am I wasting my time? Because I want it, and this is the way to get it.
Miniature Ice Elemental drops 4% from that enemy? Grind me up some elemental killboxes and get to work. “Esteemed Jumper’s Boots” which can only be found doing a jumping puzzle flawlessly under a time limit, even if they can be traded off? You better believe I’m going to be swearing and grinding puzzles, or swearing and grinding gold.
And honestly, I might not want to get these things. Especially if they’re only cosmetics. I’ll just wave goodbye like the Mini Polar Bear in GW1. But other people will want them, will see it as a grind, and will see it as unreasonably included.
I mean, case in point, just look at the original poster . . . here we have someone who is exceedingly eager to have things, but isn’t willing to do the work which was set out and requires another path. Okay, let’s do that. Now what happens when the next person comes along and doesn’t like either path? “So sorry, too bad”? “Get your big boy pants on and get to work”?
Or do we then have to demand a third . . . fourth . . . ninth . . . hundredth alternative acquisition path?
This is why Gold is the standard for items which may be traded. This is why the grind is allowed to exist. Because, like it or not, any player can . . . in theory . . . apply themselves to getting Gold enough to buy things which can be traded.
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I have five legendaries and I didn’t grind for any of them.
Strange, I have five legendaries too and I cannot recall that they magically appeared in my inventory. On the contrary, I recall following a very specific agenda in order to obtain them.
How is doing world completion three times and with that completing all the “amazing” hearts three times as well not grinding? When playing a character, neither do you just stumble over all of them, nor do you always complete them by just passing through the area.
How is obtaining 77×5 Mystic Clovers not grinding? There are very few options to obtain them outside of the MF, so you either repeatedly push your RNG-luck or you repeatedly complete one of the PvP-tracks that qualify.
How is obtaining the precursors not grinding? There is no reliable way to get those, so you will likely end up buying them off the TP. While you can obtain the gold through all kind of activities, the fact that a large majority of the playerbase will have to mandatory spend it on the precursor because they are simply not getting a drop “naturally” is grinding.
How is the large amount of materials required for the gifts not grinding? Even with respectable MF (200%+ base), the amount of mobs you’d have to repeatedly kill in order to get enough drops yourself is grinding. Same as with the precursors, that you can obtain the gold elsewhere is irrelevant.
Final note, I don’t actually mind the “grind” attached to the legendaries at all, they are the pinnacle of cosmetics after all. I just found your statement completely absurd.
I have five legendaries and I didn’t grind for any of them.
Strange, I have five legendaries too and I cannot recall that they magically appeared in my inventory. On the contrary, I recall following a very specific agenda in order to obtain them.
How is doing world completion three times and with that completing all the “amazing” hearts three times as well not grinding? When playing a character, neither do you just stumble over all of them, nor do you always complete them by just passing through the area.
How is obtaining 77×5 Mystic Clovers not grinding? There are very few options to obtain them outside of the MF, so you either repeatedly push your RNG-luck or you repeatedly complete one of the PvP-tracks that qualify.
How is obtaining the precursors not grinding? There is no reliable way to get those, so you will likely end up buying them off the TP. While you can obtain the gold through all kind of activities, the fact that a large majority of the playerbase will have to mandatory spend it on the precursor because they are simply not getting a drop “naturally” is grinding.
How is the large amount of materials required for the gifts not grinding? Even with respectable MF (200%+ base), the amount of mobs you’d have to repeatedly kill in order to get enough drops yourself is grinding. Same as with the precursors, that you can obtain the gold elsewhere is irrelevant.
Final note, I don’t actually mind the “grind” attached to the legendaries at all, they are the pinnacle of cosmetics after all. I just found your statement completely absurd.
You’re confusing “large/time-consuming task” with “grind.” Simply because it takes a long time to get all the requirements for something, doesn’t mean that doing so is a grind… unless you play in a grindy manner.
You’re confusing “large/time-consuming task” with “grind.” Simply because it takes a long time to get all the requirements for something, doesn’t mean that doing so is a grind… unless you play in a grindy manner.
No I don’t. If you have to complete something 500 times, if you do it 500 times in 1 day or once a day over 500 days is not relevant. You still did a repetition. All examples I listed qualify as such.
You’re confusing “large/time-consuming task” with “grind.” Simply because it takes a long time to get all the requirements for something, doesn’t mean that doing so is a grind… unless you play in a grindy manner.
No I don’t. If you have to complete something 500 times, if you do it 500 times in 1 day or once a day over 500 days is not relevant. You still did a repetition. All examples I listed qualify as such.
Interesting approach…Is grinding considered being based on “time spent”, “number of actions” or being “repetitive” ?
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You’re confusing “large/time-consuming task” with “grind.” Simply because it takes a long time to get all the requirements for something, doesn’t mean that doing so is a grind… unless you play in a grindy manner.
No I don’t. If you have to complete something 500 times, if you do it 500 times in 1 day or once a day over 500 days is not relevant. You still did a repetition. All examples I listed qualify as such.
None of the examples you listed required doing something 500 times. The only two that required repetition are map completion (which, as you said, was only 3 times), and forging for Mystic Clovers (which, though repetitive, is different thing from playing the game, imo. In any case, it’s far fewer than 500 repetitions).
Unless of course you count “Kill any mob” as the thing being repeated. But if you’re going to take such a broad definition of what’s repeated, the entirety of almost every single game ever created would be considered non-stop grind.
Interesting approach…Is grinding considered being based on “time spent”, “number of actions” or being “repetitive” ?
Imo, repetition naturally goes with time spent. The more repetition, the more time spent. There is no “or” here. Number of actions depends on whether they are the same (or similar) ones or not, with the former being repetition..
None of the examples you listed required doing something 500 times. The only two that required repetition are map completion (which, as you said, was only 3 times), and forging for Mystic Clovers (which, though repetitive, is different thing from playing the game, imo. In any case, it’s far fewer than 500 repetitions).
Unless of course you count “Kill any mob” as the thing being repeated. But if you’re going to take such a broad definition of what’s repeated, the entirety of almost every single game ever created would be considered non-stop grind.
No need to take the 500 that literally. You’re not doing map completion “only 3 times”, you’re completing 3×303 hearts, with some of them being more repetitive than others. Given that those hearts are not unique (some kill, collect, move something from A to B… the actual activities remain the same, just a different visual setting), you end up with a whole lot of repetition. There is no way to avoid this as their completion is mandatory. You also don’t just happen to complete them as you pass by in many cases. As such, this is grinding to me.
Lastly, I’m not talking about broad definitions such as “kill any mob”, as I agree with you that this could be applied to anything basically. The hearts and the mystic forge usage are very specific activities within the game that in the case of obtaining a legendary result in a grind as explained previously.
You’re confusing “large/time-consuming task” with “grind.” Simply because it takes a long time to get all the requirements for something, doesn’t mean that doing so is a grind… unless you play in a grindy manner.
No I don’t. If you have to complete something 500 times, if you do it 500 times in 1 day or once a day over 500 days is not relevant. You still did a repetition. All examples I listed qualify as such.
I did what I want when I wanted. I never ran a dungeon to get a legendary. I ran dungeons to help guildies and incidentally got the tokens I needed for a legendary. I jump into PvP or WvW when I feel like it, not for a specific reward. The reward was incidental to me.
Once I had enough of the rewards I got incidentally I had enough to get a legendary. I had enough badges of honor, even though I wasn’t doing anything for badges of honor.
Simplest example is map completion. I don’t complete maps because I want world complete. I simply do stuff that happens to be around as I’m running past it. It’s there, it’s XP and it requires no effort. I might go into a zone 20 times and not complete it, and suddenly, I look up and I need like a vista and a couple of points of interest.
Grind implies intention. I very rarely do anything for the reward it gives me, unless you’re counting fun or helping a guildie as a reward.
I don’t know, my problem with this topic is that is so based in opinions that is more or less futile to get an agreement or a satisfactory discussion, everything just will get out as complaining instead of useful criticism. In my opinion you can see grind anywhere, even in single player games. For example if i want to get all the spells in dark souls i have to grind a lot of souls to get them, if i want to be master in every perk in skyrim i have to kill a lot of mobs with a weapons/magic that i don’t find funny or engaging, if you want to experience every ship and weapon in FTL you have to play over and over again and fight similar ships and missions.
As I said is always a matter of opinions. Is what you find tedious or repetitive. In my opinion GW2 is very mush grind optional, i will not said that there is not grind at all but i think is more or less optional, you can play any dungeon/game modes without grinding for things. The only things that i would consider grind are some skins, assented gear and legendary, but that doesn’t stop you from playing all the fractals or have fun in wvw and pvp, and you can obtain most of the things by other mediums. for example Assented gear, if you don’t want to farm the materials and crafting , you eventually will get them as a drop if you play wvw, spvp or pve. And the things that are more grindy like Legendary, fractal weapon, luminescent armor, achievement armors(celestial) you don’t need them to be good on any game mode or experience everything the game have to offer, and you can make your character look cool without them.
I agree that the game have a lot of things to improve, but discussing that it is or isn’t a grindy game will not solve or improve anything in the game.
I did what I want when I wanted. I never ran a dungeon to get a legendary. I ran dungeons to help guildies and incidentally got the tokens I needed for a legendary. I jump into PvP or WvW when I feel like it, not for a specific reward. The reward was incidental to me.
Once I had enough of the rewards I got incidentally I had enough to get a legendary. I had enough badges of honor, even though I wasn’t doing anything for badges of honor.
Simplest example is map completion. I don’t complete maps because I want world complete. I simply do stuff that happens to be around as I’m running past it. It’s there, it’s XP and it requires no effort. I might go into a zone 20 times and not complete it, and suddenly, I look up and I need like a vista and a couple of points of interest.
Grind implies intention. I very rarely do anything for the reward it gives me, unless you’re counting fun or helping a guildie as a reward.
To me, this sounds like the common delusion about what the carrot dangling in front of your face is all about.
Let’s look at your simple example of world completion: Why would you repeatedly return to the same zone on the same character over an extended amount of time? Encounters such as world bosses which encourage such behaviour are limited to certain spots. You don’t magically complete a heart on the other side of the map because of that. Just like you don’t magically complete a large majority of the hearts by “running past them”. As a matter of fact, you seek them out on purpose, you stop, you engage in that activity in a repetitive manner and then move on. You are as such guided by rewards, even if you keep telling yourself that this is “all fun”.
This remains the same for all kind of content: You may tell yourself that you have fun doing that dungeon for the 101th time because you’re helping out a guildie this time, but in truth the game-related rewards attached to the activity influence your decision-making and willingness to be helpful.
Your intention is there, it may not be as bluntly as “I want that legendary now”, but it still affects what you do. Do you stick around and keep doing hearts-related activities once the heart itself is completed because they are so much fun? Do you keep running the same dungeon paths or world bosses past the extra daily reward because they are so much fun? The carrot usually takes you elsewhere…
Grind = the REQUIREMENT to REPEAT content over and over and over again to get NECCESARY equipent to proceed the game.
This game has no grinds unless you selfimpose them.
Ascneded armor is NOT neccesary.
Legendaries are not neccesary,
Skins are not neccesary.
You can craft armor or buy it for 10-12 gold, get it through karma or wvw points, dungeon tokens.. same for weapons…. Trinkets you can earn by logging in. logging in for 56 days gives you 2 ascneded ringes and an amulet…. for Free….
Nothing gamebreaking requires the repeditive return to content if you do not want to. -NOTHING-!
You wil stay lvl 80 forever. The only thing which is interesting is your own appearance.
And selfimpoing your needs for something will make it feel like a grind if you cannot think of other things…. but it still isn’t required to proceed in the game.
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
(edited by PaxTheGreatOne.9472)
His point is simple … add more ways for people to grind so they can choose the method that suits them. The problem is that it’s not the method that’s the issue because we have MANY methods we can choose to earn rewards. The REAL issue is that there is a gold standard. The unfortunate part of these ‘grind’ threads don’t recognize that this will always be the primary reward in the game.
Gold (or some substitute) will always be the prime currency, but it does not have to be the prime reward. If I was to build an MMO from the ground up I would also add in gold, but I would design it so that the items are the primary reward and gold should be something you earn along the way that lets pay some vendor stuff you might need. But I would not want gold be the primary reward in a MMORPG, or it even being such an important element.
That would turn the game to much into a job. Gold / currency is a great way to trade things but an MMORPG should be much more about the hunt and the challenge of getting the stuff that way.. I guess like if you were to kill an evil dragon and have the dragon head on your wall. That is the hunt and the reward I think it should be about in an MMO. Not getting the same head by buying it with gold you earned by killing rabbits and selling the skin.
Gold being the primary reward system is what makes this game so NON-grindy. Making items the main reward would simply INCREASE the amount of grind since you’d be shoehorned into doing specific content repeatedly in order to get specific items.
Gold as a reward allows you to focus on playing the content you like and eventually being able to acquire almost anything you want.
It is a vastly superior system to the old item reward schemes.
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I did what I want when I wanted. I never ran a dungeon to get a legendary. I ran dungeons to help guildies and incidentally got the tokens I needed for a legendary. I jump into PvP or WvW when I feel like it, not for a specific reward. The reward was incidental to me.
Once I had enough of the rewards I got incidentally I had enough to get a legendary. I had enough badges of honor, even though I wasn’t doing anything for badges of honor.
Simplest example is map completion. I don’t complete maps because I want world complete. I simply do stuff that happens to be around as I’m running past it. It’s there, it’s XP and it requires no effort. I might go into a zone 20 times and not complete it, and suddenly, I look up and I need like a vista and a couple of points of interest.
Grind implies intention. I very rarely do anything for the reward it gives me, unless you’re counting fun or helping a guildie as a reward.
To me, this sounds like the common delusion about what the carrot dangling in front of your face is all about.
Let’s look at your simple example of world completion: Why would you repeatedly return to the same zone on the same character over an extended amount of time? Encounters such as world bosses which encourage such behaviour are limited to certain spots. You don’t magically complete a heart on the other side of the map because of that. Just like you don’t magically complete a large majority of the hearts by “running past them”. As a matter of fact, you seek them out on purpose, you stop, you engage in that activity in a repetitive manner and then move on. You are as such guided by rewards, even if you keep telling yourself that this is “all fun”.
This remains the same for all kind of content: You may tell yourself that you have fun doing that dungeon for the 101th time because you’re helping out a guildie this time, but in truth the game-related rewards attached to the activity influence your decision-making and willingness to be helpful.
Your intention is there, it may not be as bluntly as “I want that legendary now”, but it still affects what you do. Do you stick around and keep doing hearts-related activities once the heart itself is completed because they are so much fun? Do you keep running the same dungeon paths or world bosses past the extra daily reward because they are so much fun? The carrot usually takes you elsewhere…
I return to those zones because I enjoy going there. I think they’re pretty, or fun, or I go to do an event I used to enjoy doing, or find an event I’ve never seen.
Every time I pass through zones, I find stuff I never noticed before, or noticed once but don’t remember. That’s why I go back to old zones.
And of course, I’m in those zones when we do guild missions, I’m in those zones for jumping puzzles. I’m in those zones because guildies are in those zones and I’m hanging out with them.
Your focus is the carrot, so you assume the only reason anyone would ever go to a zone is for the carrot. kittenumption is bad.
I often wander around just TO wander around because I enjoy wandering around. Sometimes I just like to try to climb mountains, not because there’s a chest up there, or because there’s a reward up there. Just to see if I can do it.
I don’t know why you think I return to zones for world bosses, since the world boss train feels a whole lot like grind to me and as already mentioned, I tend not to do that.
Gold being the primary reward system is what makes this game so NON-grindy. Making items the main reward would simply INCREASE the amount of grind since you’d be shoehorned into doing specific content repeatedly in order to get specific items.
Gold as a reward allows you to focus on playing the content you like and eventually being able to acquire almost anything you want.
It is a vastly superior system to the old item reward schemes.
While I personally can agree that I feel having a game wide currency that’s readily obtainable to be non-grindy, not everyone will see it that way since “grind” is subjective.
Some people are going to feel pressured to only do the content that rewards the greatest amount of gold in the shortest period of time, which is going to pigeon-hole them into very specific content, and yes, I can see that becoming a “grind” for some people. This way they can get whatever shiny they are after, faster. What these people fail to comprehend is if that shiny where to drop instead of gold, they’d end up grinding just as much if not potentially more to achieve it. Where as, with gold, they do have the choice to go do other things, and still make progress toward their end goal. They just don’t exercise that freedom of choice and opt to whine instead.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
Gold being the primary reward system is what makes this game so NON-grindy. Making items the main reward would simply INCREASE the amount of grind since you’d be shoehorned into doing specific content repeatedly in order to get specific items.
Gold as a reward allows you to focus on playing the content you like and eventually being able to acquire almost anything you want.
It is a vastly superior system to the old item reward schemes.
While I personally can agree that I feel having a game wide currency that’s readily obtainable to be non-grindy, not everyone will see it that way since “grind” is subjective.
Some people are going to feel pressured to only do the content that rewards the greatest amount of gold in the shortest period of time, which is going to pigeon-hole them into very specific content, and yes, I can see that becoming a “grind” for some people. This way they can get whatever shiny they are after, faster. What these people fail to comprehend is if that shiny where to drop instead of gold, they’d end up grinding just as much if not potentially more to achieve it. Where as, with gold, they do have the choice to go do other things, and still make progress toward their end goal. They just don’t exercise that freedom of choice and opt to whine instead.
And this is the real problem with a gold-based economy, they need to balance out risk vs reward, something that unfortunately doesn’t exist in this game. In this game, the easiest activities that take no effort, like chest farming with a huge group of people in SW, has more rewards per hour than doing actual content.
Farming sparks in Malchor’s Leap used to be the best option for Charged Cores, farming skelk in Southsun used to be a great spot for Blood, following a champion train in Frostgorge nets more rewards than most other content in the game, and following the world boss train is similar.
So more difficult content has lucklaster rewards compared to the easy modes. If the higher difficulty content had better rewards, then more people would do that and don’t feel the grind as much.
I can’t call running Arah solo a grind, even if I do it daily. Repetition does not always equal grind.
And this is the real problem with a gold-based economy, they need to balance out risk vs reward, something that unfortunately doesn’t exist in this game. In this game, the easiest activities that take no effort, like chest farming with a huge group of people in SW, has more rewards per hour than doing actual content.
Farming sparks in Malchor’s Leap used to be the best option for Charged Cores, farming skelk in Southsun used to be a great spot for Blood, following a champion train in Frostgorge nets more rewards than most other content in the game, and following the world boss train is similar.
So more difficult content has lucklaster rewards compared to the easy modes. If the higher difficulty content had better rewards, then more people would do that and don’t feel the grind as much.
I can’t call running Arah solo a grind, even if I do it daily. Repetition does not always equal grind.
I agree, repetition does not equate to grind necessarily. Although for some people, it does. Its completely subjective.
The issue isn’t the gold based economy. That in and of itself is not what causes the issue. The lack of reward balance, as you point out after, is the root problem. I do agree they need to do some further work on balancing rewards across the game, though I doubt we’ll see anything done with the core game at this point.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
And this is the real problem with a gold-based economy, they need to balance out risk vs reward, something that unfortunately doesn’t exist in this game. In this game, the easiest activities that take no effort, like chest farming with a huge group of people in SW, has more rewards per hour than doing actual content.
Farming sparks in Malchor’s Leap used to be the best option for Charged Cores, farming skelk in Southsun used to be a great spot for Blood, following a champion train in Frostgorge nets more rewards than most other content in the game, and following the world boss train is similar.
So more difficult content has lucklaster rewards compared to the easy modes. If the higher difficulty content had better rewards, then more people would do that and don’t feel the grind as much.
I can’t call running Arah solo a grind, even if I do it daily. Repetition does not always equal grind.
I agree, repetition does not equate to grind necessarily. Although for some people, it does. Its completely subjective.
The issue isn’t the gold based economy. That in and of itself is not what causes the issue. The lack of reward balance, as you point out after, is the root problem. I do agree they need to do some further work on balancing rewards across the game, though I doubt we’ll see anything done with the core game at this point.
I think the LS release system had a lot to do with it. Because the LS introduced new farms every few weeks, players had to farm in the new zones (or the altered zones to earn all the rewards they wanted before the content went away. This created an urgency, and forced players to find the most efficient routes to the end reward. So naturally most people felt like they were grinding.
The expansion is a great opportunity to change this. I hope they have a far better reward system than showering us with new currencies on every map. The Masteries look like a great way to reward people. And the Precursor collection look like an excellent way to deal with new rewards.
It will be a great system, I hope, and there would be no need to add rewards to specific RNG tables, just make collections for valuable items.
I think the LS release system had a lot to do with it. Because the LS introduced new farms every few weeks, players had to farm in the new zones (or the altered zones to earn all the rewards they wanted before the content went away. This created an urgency, and forced players to find the most efficient routes to the end reward. So naturally most people felt like they were grinding.
The expansion is a great opportunity to change this. I hope they have a far better reward system than showering us with new currencies on every map. The Masteries look like a great way to reward people. And the Precursor collection look like an excellent way to deal with new rewards.
It will be a great system, I hope, and there would be no need to add rewards to specific RNG tables, just make collections for valuable items.
I agree LS1 with it limited time approach did definitely contribute. I think LS2 was better, those maps and farms are permanent and one isn’t necessarily significantly more lucrative than another (or maybe that’s just how I play).
But yes, I agree the expansion holds a lot of potential for balancing rewards. I like the introduction of collections, and look forward to working on the new ones in the expansion. I think we’ll still need at least “some” rewards tied to rng though. Collections aren’t everyone’s cup of tea after all.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
I return to those zones because I enjoy going there. I think they’re pretty, or fun, or I go to do an event I used to enjoy doing, or find an event I’ve never seen.
Every time I pass through zones, I find stuff I never noticed before, or noticed once but don’t remember. That’s why I go back to old zones.
And of course, I’m in those zones when we do guild missions, I’m in those zones for jumping puzzles. I’m in those zones because guildies are in those zones and I’m hanging out with them.
Your focus is the carrot, so you assume the only reason anyone would ever go to a zone is for the carrot. kittenumption is bad.
I often wander around just TO wander around because I enjoy wandering around. Sometimes I just like to try to climb mountains, not because there’s a chest up there, or because there’s a reward up there. Just to see if I can do it.
I don’t know why you think I return to zones for world bosses, since the world boss train feels a whole lot like grind to me and as already mentioned, I tend not to do that.
The game is out for approximately 2.5 years. Which means you average a legendary every half a year. While I do not doubt that you do indeed engage in the activities you just described, you might want to consider how much of your game time is truly spent on it and how much you are actually engaged in the carrot-chasing.
As far as I’m aware, fooling around hearts and climbing mountains does not magically shower you in wealth. If it indeed did, a forum reader or two might be interested to learn more – including myself.
I return to those zones because I enjoy going there. I think they’re pretty, or fun, or I go to do an event I used to enjoy doing, or find an event I’ve never seen.
Every time I pass through zones, I find stuff I never noticed before, or noticed once but don’t remember. That’s why I go back to old zones.
And of course, I’m in those zones when we do guild missions, I’m in those zones for jumping puzzles. I’m in those zones because guildies are in those zones and I’m hanging out with them.
Your focus is the carrot, so you assume the only reason anyone would ever go to a zone is for the carrot. kittenumption is bad.
I often wander around just TO wander around because I enjoy wandering around. Sometimes I just like to try to climb mountains, not because there’s a chest up there, or because there’s a reward up there. Just to see if I can do it.
I don’t know why you think I return to zones for world bosses, since the world boss train feels a whole lot like grind to me and as already mentioned, I tend not to do that.
The game is out for approximately 2.5 years. Which means you average a legendary every half a year. While I do not doubt that you do indeed engage in the activities you just described, you might want to consider how much of your game time is truly spent on it and how much you are actually engaged in the carrot-chasing.
As far as I’m aware, fooling around hearts and climbing mountains does not magically shower you in wealth. If it indeed did, a forum reader or two might be interested to learn more – including myself.
not hearts per say but just running around higher level zones doing events can get you quite a good amount of money usually particularly ones in ORR or SW where you can get decent silk drops/turn ins
There is no requirement to grind gold either. You get plenty of gold to outfit a character in full Exotics with the gold you obtain from just playing the game.
An internal desire for a player to “keep up with the Jones” is NOT a requirement to play the game itself.
The fact that you CAN obtain most anything by potentially “grinding gold” is actually a viable option available to all players rather than spending RL money on gems. How is removing that option in any way a good thing?
I am not apposed to more reward based options as long as they are “optional”. I say an emphatic NO to any idea of equipment / item gating or repetative equipment tiers (to progress in the game, not change your cosmetic appearance).
We go out in the world and take our chances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
Fate is just the weight of circumstances
That’s the way that lady luck dances
(edited by Brother Grimm.5176)
Grind = the REQUIREMENT to REPEAT content over and over and over again to get NECCESARY equipent to proceed the game.
This game has no grinds unless you selfimpose them.
Ascneded armor is NOT neccesary.
Legendaries are not neccesary,
Skins are not neccesary.
I’ll give you the other two, but ascended armor IS necessary if you want to have the best stats the game has to offer. Would you be content being stuck at level 79 forever? By your logic it’s not necessary.
I haven’t been bringing this up because every time I do it derails the thread, but five years ago ArenaNet said that they did not intend a grind for ascended armor, and just last month Colin reiterated that they still hold to that. So whether it is or isn’t necessary, the fact that acquiring it is a grind conflicts with ArenaNet’s stated intentions.
And this is the real problem with a gold-based economy, they need to balance out risk vs reward, something that unfortunately doesn’t exist in this game. In this game, the easiest activities that take no effort, like chest farming with a huge group of people in SW, has more rewards per hour than doing actual content.
I think this is the heart of the problem too. The disparity between the reward for grinding out mindless content and the reward for engaging in challenging activities over-incentivizes any player interested in even basic rewards like ascended armor to grind.
So more difficult content has lucklaster rewards compared to the easy modes. If the higher difficulty content had better rewards, then more people would do that and don’t feel the grind as much.
Exactly.
Grind = the REQUIREMENT to REPEAT content over and over and over again to get NECCESARY equipent to proceed the game.
This game has no grinds unless you selfimpose them.
Ascneded armor is NOT neccesary.
Legendaries are not neccesary,
Skins are not neccesary.You can craft armor or buy it for 10-12 gold, get it through karma or wvw points, dungeon tokens.. same for weapons…. Trinkets you can earn by logging in. logging in for 56 days gives you 2 ascneded ringes and an amulet…. for Free….
Nothing gamebreaking requires the repeditive return to content if you do not want to. -NOTHING-!
You wil stay lvl 80 forever. The only thing which is interesting is your own appearance.
And selfimpoing your needs for something will make it feel like a grind if you cannot think of other things…. but it still isn’t required to proceed in the game.
Not everyone has access to the same loot tables
not sure why people can’t realize this fact. There’s a reason why people are reporting unlucky accounts and it’s not because they like to, go to any other game out there with individual loot and you’ll not see a single forums post about unlucky accounts.
It’s happening in this game however you might want to ask yourself why instead of trying to prove people wrong who simply take pictures of their bag filled with nothing but trinkets and junk on multiple toons.
It’s a grind because you cannot get rewarded for your time properly and I’m sorry but you’re not going to discredit even the major game reviewing companies who’ve pointed this fact out or the fact that Anet has admited that their rewards system isn’t really where they’d like it to be.
Poof myth destroyed.
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
I think you guys are making this topic a big fuss of drama, trying to put your ideas on the other people and don’t accept the ideas from other people, which is kinda rude, from what i read in this topic is just the same thing but with different words and means the same, so at least try to be humble and not arrogant perhaps?
The grind is still grind is like saying that the sky is blue, we all agree that all MMORPG are grinds, that’s the core game play, if you don’t like it well go play other game genre, or if you are a game developer make your own game, actions not words please.
But then again, this game doesn’t force you to grind it like hell, you can go casual, today do some dungeons, maybe a vista, actually to me the dailies are actually for those people who want to play it more grind less and that’s all.
But then you will come to me and say, “hey what about legendaries or the new shadow skin that is so freaking awesome and i want them but i gotta grind for them” well i am sorry to disappoint you on this but you have the problem, because you LIKE the items, and so you HAVE to play to earn them, as an example i dislike the legendaries (i actually dislike the 75% the skins of this game lol) but they released the shadow skins, i liked them heck, time to bust in even if i don’t like it just to get em.
So stop acting like a child (unless you are) that your parents tell you to do your homework or you won’t get a candy and the only thing you do is rant or complain about the homework and you want the candy for do nothing for it.
about better rewards at higher level, well that would definitely kill that “no-grind” philosophy of ANET, because what they want is all the stuff they release, has to be used since day one to the game closure (that i hope it takes wayyyyy long) so technically this game is not made for those people that has the “superiority” or the “aria race” ideology with its gear set up and you gotta explore the classes a lot to find the one that suits you.
I think you guys are making this topic a big fuss of drama, trying to put your ideas on the other people and don’t accept the ideas from other people, which is kinda rude, from what i read in this topic is just the same thing but with different words and means the same, so at least try to be humble and not arrogant perhaps?
The grind is still grind is like saying that the sky is blue, we all agree that all MMORPG are grinds, that’s the core game play, if you don’t like it well go play other game genre, or if you are a game developer make your own game, actions not words please.
But then again, this game doesn’t force you to grind it like hell, you can go casual, today do some dungeons, maybe a vista, actually to me the dailies are actually for those people who want to play it more grind less and that’s all.
But then you will come to me and say, “hey what about legendaries or the new shadow skin that is so freaking awesome and i want them but i gotta grind for them” well i am sorry to disappoint you on this but you have the problem, because you LIKE the items, and so you HAVE to play to earn them, as an example i dislike the legendaries (i actually dislike the 75% the skins of this game lol) but they released the shadow skins, i liked them heck, time to bust in even if i don’t like it just to get em.
So stop acting like a child (unless you are) that your parents tell you to do your homework or you won’t get a candy and the only thing you do is rant or complain about the homework and you want the candy for do nothing for it.
about better rewards at higher level, well that would definitely kill that “no-grind” philosophy of ANET, because what they want is all the stuff they release, has to be used since day one to the game closure (that i hope it takes wayyyyy long) so technically this game is not made for those people that has the “superiority” or the “aria race” ideology with its gear set up and you gotta explore the classes a lot to find the one that suits you.
I’ve repeatedly stayed on topic of Ascended which is the Max level of gear in this case and yes you do need it to accomplish certain things in the game in PVE so the idea that it’s somehow not part of the need to grind for progression is offensive. Like I’ve said in my last post, major companies have talked about the problems with loot in GW2 and how it’s had too much RNG and how DR has played a role in preventing people from progressing. It’s not something that happens in other titles because in those other titles one can actually farm for free the materials one needs without fear of an entire account being cutoff from loot like what happens here.
The ball is in their court now we’ll see if “Rewards” is one of the things they fix at long last with the release of HoT and all it would require is some minor ajustements to where the materials commonly come from to fix the problem (Karma/Salvaging).
Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!
Not everyone has access to the same loot tables
not sure why people can’t realize this fact. There’s a reason why people are reporting unlucky accounts and it’s not because they like to, go to any other game out there with individual loot and you’ll not see a single forums post about unlucky accounts.
This statement is false. See here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/15#post4487484
Server: Devona’s Rest
I think you guys are making this topic a big fuss of drama, trying to put your ideas on the other people and don’t accept the ideas from other people, which is kinda rude, from what i read in this topic is just the same thing but with different words and means the same, so at least try to be humble and not arrogant perhaps?
The grind is still grind is like saying that the sky is blue, we all agree that all MMORPG are grinds, that’s the core game play, if you don’t like it well go play other game genre, or if you are a game developer make your own game, actions not words please.
But then again, this game doesn’t force you to grind it like hell, you can go casual, today do some dungeons, maybe a vista, actually to me the dailies are actually for those people who want to play it more grind less and that’s all.
But then you will come to me and say, “hey what about legendaries or the new shadow skin that is so freaking awesome and i want them but i gotta grind for them” well i am sorry to disappoint you on this but you have the problem, because you LIKE the items, and so you HAVE to play to earn them, as an example i dislike the legendaries (i actually dislike the 75% the skins of this game lol) but they released the shadow skins, i liked them heck, time to bust in even if i don’t like it just to get em.
So stop acting like a child (unless you are) that your parents tell you to do your homework or you won’t get a candy and the only thing you do is rant or complain about the homework and you want the candy for do nothing for it.
about better rewards at higher level, well that would definitely kill that “no-grind” philosophy of ANET, because what they want is all the stuff they release, has to be used since day one to the game closure (that i hope it takes wayyyyy long) so technically this game is not made for those people that has the “superiority” or the “aria race” ideology with its gear set up and you gotta explore the classes a lot to find the one that suits you.
I’ve repeatedly stayed on topic of Ascended which is the Max level of gear in this case and yes you do need it to accomplish certain things in the game in PVE so the idea that it’s somehow not part of the need to grind for progression is offensive. Like I’ve said in my last post, major companies have talked about the problems with loot in GW2 and how it’s had too much RNG and how DR has played a role in preventing people from progressing. It’s not something that happens in other titles because in those other titles one can actually farm for free the materials one needs without fear of an entire account being cutoff from loot like what happens here.
The ball is in their court now we’ll see if “Rewards” is one of the things they fix at long last with the release of HoT and all it would require is some minor ajustements to where the materials commonly come from to fix the problem (Karma/Salvaging).
indeed ascended is the MAX LEVEL of the gear, but you aren’t forced to get it, you can still play with exotic and you will pretty much do good, the only difference i have seen in ascended vs exotic, is on WVW, on PVE especially dungeons there is no big deal about it, then again i go with the statement i said prior “the game doesn’t force you”, you want the ascended, go for it, don’t want the ascended stick with the exotic or any quality armor you want.
Now talking about the “hunt” of the mats for the ascended…. i find it pretty much weird you say it is hard to “farm” and you added the word “free”, i honestly don’t find any problem with that, i everyday make 2 ascended items (the ingot and the wood) and every 3 days i do 3 (2 prior and the ascended silk), then at the end of the week (sunday or monday) i go gather the mats and woops, i get like 6 – 7 ascended ingots and woods and like 2 ascended silks, so i will ask you (hope u don’t find it offensive)
¿What do you do to farm your materials, do you stick into just gathering runs or dungeons runs, don’t do both? i can tell you i do 8 dungeons, COF P1/P2, AC ALL PATH, COE ALL PATH, and sometimes i do SE P1/P3, then go to the maps to gather materials and i come with pretty much a lot of crafting materials from that, i even have to transmute mithril ingot into ori ingot, because i get a lot.
I have five legendaries and I didn’t grind for any of them.
Strange, I have five legendaries too and I cannot recall that they magically appeared in my inventory. On the contrary, I recall following a very specific agenda in order to obtain them.
How is doing world completion three times and with that completing all the “amazing” hearts three times as well not grinding? When playing a character, neither do you just stumble over all of them, nor do you always complete them by just passing through the area.
How is obtaining 77×5 Mystic Clovers not grinding? There are very few options to obtain them outside of the MF, so you either repeatedly push your RNG-luck or you repeatedly complete one of the PvP-tracks that qualify.
How is obtaining the precursors not grinding? There is no reliable way to get those, so you will likely end up buying them off the TP. While you can obtain the gold through all kind of activities, the fact that a large majority of the playerbase will have to mandatory spend it on the precursor because they are simply not getting a drop “naturally” is grinding.
How is the large amount of materials required for the gifts not grinding? Even with respectable MF (200%+ base), the amount of mobs you’d have to repeatedly kill in order to get enough drops yourself is grinding. Same as with the precursors, that you can obtain the gold elsewhere is irrelevant.
Final note, I don’t actually mind the “grind” attached to the legendaries at all, they are the pinnacle of cosmetics after all. I just found your statement completely absurd.
While I could believe that getting one legendary ot two probably isn’t all that bad of a grind, I have serious doubts about the honesty of someone claiming to get 5 or more legendaries by falling off a log in-game, so to speak. I don’t even know how you’d do that without at least some repetitious playing with an eye to actually working on said legendaries.
When I did my legendary, I opted for the “cheap” way to do it. When I saw precursor prices dropping, I used the majority of the gold I’d been saving pretty much since beginning the game to buy one so I could craft it. That left enough money to get the 250 speciality items (lodestones, etc.) I had a certain number of T6 mats in my vault from years of playing, but I still needed to spend 600 laurels on enough T6 mats to finish. I also needed to spend some money finishing crafts I hadn’t done to 400 to complete the gifts, and I already had the other items except for the dungeon tokens, which I got in just a few days of making a point of running them.
So, all in all, I got this legendary with minimal grind since I had items saved up (gold, laurels, mats, etc.) from simply playing the game like a “normal” casual player.
However, to say I could do this one right after the other 5 more times with no grind whatsoever would be…well, lying. lol
Not everyone has access to the same loot tables
not sure why people can’t realize this fact. There’s a reason why people are reporting unlucky accounts and it’s not because they like to, go to any other game out there with individual loot and you’ll not see a single forums post about unlucky accounts.
This statement is false. See here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/15#post4487484
So that’s what he meant by that statement? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
AHHHHHHHHH
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Give me a break. This calls into doubt everything Tig says when he is spewing anything game related. What in the world would be the benefit to Anet to have such a mechanic? Lose the tinfoil hat, take a step back and reevaluate.
His point is simple … add more ways for people to grind so they can choose the method that suits them. The problem is that it’s not the method that’s the issue because we have MANY methods we can choose to earn rewards. The REAL issue is that there is a gold standard. The unfortunate part of these ‘grind’ threads don’t recognize that this will always be the primary reward in the game.
Gold (or some substitute) will always be the prime currency, but it does not have to be the prime reward. If I was to build an MMO from the ground up I would also add in gold, but I would design it so that the items are the primary reward and gold should be something you earn along the way that lets pay some vendor stuff you might need. But I would not want gold be the primary reward in a MMORPG, or it even being such an important element.
That would turn the game to much into a job. Gold / currency is a great way to trade things but an MMORPG should be much more about the hunt and the challenge of getting the stuff that way.. I guess like if you were to kill an evil dragon and have the dragon head on your wall. That is the hunt and the reward I think it should be about in an MMO. Not getting the same head by buying it with gold you earned by killing rabbits and selling the skin.
Gold being the primary reward system is what makes this game so NON-grindy. Making items the main reward would simply INCREASE the amount of grind since you’d be shoehorned into doing specific content repeatedly in order to get specific items.
Gold as a reward allows you to focus on playing the content you like and eventually being able to acquire almost anything you want.
It is a vastly superior system to the old item reward schemes.
“Gold being the primary reward system is what makes this game so NON-grindy. " But the game is extremely grindy because of the gold-grind.
“Making items the main reward would simply INCREASE the amount of grind since you’d be shoehorned into doing specific content repeatedly in order to get specific items.” Specific content per item, but then again all items have different content so you are in reality send all over the world to do many different types of content while the grind-option usually means your choice is getting limited.
“Gold as a reward allows you to focus on playing the content you like” I like hunting down items.. But the only way to do that is by grinding gold.
" and eventually being able to acquire almost anything you want." Yeah, just not how it works in reality. That has been debunked multiple times in this thread. If you like cosmetics just doing some other stuff will not make you the gold you need to buy all the cosmetics you like.. for most people at least. Except if grindy-like content happens to be what you like. Plus that you still miss out of the hunt for the item.
Not to mention that all readable items still allow you to grind for gold and buy them. So the biggest difference is that in one system the only option is to grind gold and in the other system you can directly work towards getting your item or grind for gold.
“It is a vastly superior system to the old item reward schemes." So taking away an option is makes it superior. Well if grinding gold is what you like and you hate it when other people don’t grind but work directly work towards item.. then I guess it is vastly superior for you. I can’t see any other boundaries in what that system is superior (in a game at least).
“Because there’s no need to grind if you dont want said item” So if you want to get the item / to get the item, it is required. Exactly what I said.
This statement right here highlights that the choice is in fact yours. You are making the choice to chase something, and as such you must work for it. That work comes in the form of grinding, which you don’t like. What do you want them to do? Just hand it to you if you decide you want something? A certain amount of work has to be involved to keep the game engaging.
“What do you want them to do?” If I would answer this then people would complain again I keep repeating myself because I think repeating myself means I am right. (Or something like that) But of course I repeat myself because of these sorts of questions.
Anyway, yes it’s choice, just as it’s choice to play this game. I also choose not to do this grind. But I would like to work towards the items. Just not by grinding gold for 90% of them but by actively working towards them, having fun doing that. I also did this in other MMO’s. Grind is not the only way. The other ways to do that I gave in multiple other comments. Liadri would be one example.
The problem is Deveta, in either instance you end up grinding for the item you’re hunting. They cannot just give it to you after one or two passes of the content (be it a mob kill, a quest chain, a boss, etc). You’re going to have to do it again, and again, and again, and again, which equates to grind. Then you’d come back with the exact same complaint you have now – you can’t achieve whatever it is you’re after without grind. Grind is a necessary evil in the longevity of these types of games. Be it grinding for gold or grinding for loot.
For quests that would not have to be true, for dungeons (and other content that takes a longer time to create) you will see some RNG, while you could as well reward something simply for completing it. However because it drops in one place in stead of in many places you can also make the drop-rate higher what makes the grind a little less and there is more variation.
So in total you get a system where there is some RNG but also where you can earn many items without RNG (Like the quests / quest-chains). That makes the complete grind less.
“Then you’d come back with the exact same complaint”, I did not complain about grind in any of the MMO’s that used this system. So no.
“Be it grinding for gold or grinding for loot.” With gold it’s like a never ending grind for gold while farming for items (while only partly true, like I said before, not everything has to be RNG based when rewarding items) you have many different farms but if you like to grind gold that is also an option.
But the game is extremely grindy because of the gold-grind.
You can do whatever you want and get the same rewards that I do when I do whatever I want. Doing stuff you want to do is NOT a grind, therefore your premise is incorrect. This game is NOT grindy because you can do what you want and get the rewards. If you CHOOSE to do content you DON’T want to do because you believe it will be faster at reaching the rewards then you are imposing an unnecessary grind on the game YOURSELF. YOU are the GRIND, not the game.
Specific content per item, but then again all items have different content so you are in reality send all over the world to do many different types of content while the grind-option usually means your choice is getting limited.
I don’t want to kill the Super Elite Fire Ooze King 400 times to get the Ooze Crown of Super Eliteness. I want to do whatever I want and still be able to get the Ooze Crown of Super Eliteness. GW2 allows me to do that, thus the specific content for specific item system is INFERIOR to the GW2 system.
I like hunting down items.. But the only way to do that is by grinding gold.
Play the content you like and you won’t be grinding gold, you’ll be getting rewarded for playing how you like to play.
Yeah, just not how it works in reality. That has been debunked multiple times in this thread. If you like cosmetics just doing some other stuff will not make you the gold you need to buy all the cosmetics you like.. for most people at least. Except if grindy-like content happens to be what you like. Plus that you still miss out of the hunt for the item.
Your incorrect opinion is not a “debunk”. In reality you can make gold doing whatever you want, and then use that gold to buy whatever you want. YOU just want YOUR style of play to be faster than other styles of play at generating gold so that YOU can skip the playing and satisfy your desire to be instantly satisfied. That’s bad game design.
So taking away an option is makes it superior. Well if grinding gold is what you like and you hate it when other people don’t grind but work directly work towards item.. then I guess it is vastly superior for you. I can’t see any other boundaries in what that system is superior (in a game at least).
No options have been taken away. You have the option to play however you want to play. This game offers MORE options than the other MMOs, which is why it is superior. Again, you just want YOUR CHOICE to be superior to the other playstyles and are masking that request with these ridiculously fallacious arguments about how grindy this game is and how it lacks options when it quite provably is less grindy and have MORE options than it’s competitors.
If you really feel that the current reward system is so bad and that only systems that reward actual grinding (which is what you’ve been asking for) are valid, then I’m sorry but this game will never be “for you”. There are plenty of older MMOs that reward killing the Super Elite Fire Ooze King 400 times already. I’m sure you’d be happier there. But again, I don’t think you are actually being truthful in your claims as I believe it is much more likely that you simply want your play style to be buffed and are using this ludicrous thread to mask your intentions.
Server: Devona’s Rest
About it still being a grind but a different one. As for the RNG part that is of course personal but at the very least it’s cut in smaller chunks and then for the not RNG part it’s something you do ones and be rewarded, I don’t think that fits any definition of grind. And people can then work directly towards the items.
It fits my definition of grind, which is “I am repeating this lousy task hoping for that item to drop so I can get on with my life”.
Do I need it? Probably not. Could I get by without it? Probably so. Why am I wasting my time? Because I want it, and this is the way to get it.
Miniature Ice Elemental drops 4% from that enemy? Grind me up some elemental killboxes and get to work. “Esteemed Jumper’s Boots” which can only be found doing a jumping puzzle flawlessly under a time limit, even if they can be traded off? You better believe I’m going to be swearing and grinding puzzles, or swearing and grinding gold.
And honestly, I might not want to get these things. Especially if they’re only cosmetics. I’ll just wave goodbye like the Mini Polar Bear in GW1. But other people will want them, will see it as a grind, and will see it as unreasonably included.
I mean, case in point, just look at the original poster . . . here we have someone who is exceedingly eager to have things, but isn’t willing to do the work which was set out and requires another path. Okay, let’s do that. Now what happens when the next person comes along and doesn’t like either path? “So sorry, too bad”? “Get your big boy pants on and get to work”?
Or do we then have to demand a third . . . fourth . . . ninth . . . hundredth alternative acquisition path?
This is why Gold is the standard for items which may be traded. This is why the grind is allowed to exist. Because, like it or not, any player can . . . in theory . . . apply themselves to getting Gold enough to buy things which can be traded.
““Esteemed Jumper’s Boots” which can only be found doing a jumping puzzle flawlessly under a time limit, even if they can be traded off? You better believe I’m going to be swearing and grinding puzzles, or swearing and grinding gold.”
This is also a good way to reward (I once even gave this example) and it’s not grinding at all. You can get it at the first go and that’s not because of some random luck, no this is skill-based rewards. What is imho a very good way of rewarding, maybe the best. If you do it 100 times it’s likely because you are not very good at them and so it takes you a long time to learn it but grinding is really something different, this is ‘learning’.
“here we have someone who is exceedingly eager to have things, but isn’t willing to do the work which was set out and requires another path.”
This is the weakest and most flawed excuse that keeps coming back. If you complain about grind you basically just want items to be handed to you. Pure nonsense and no matter how many time people repeat it, that does not make it any more true. As a matter of fact, what you likely as for is more challenging content. Because most of the grind in this game are mindless and boring. I ask for a hunt to do want to do ‘the work’ for it. I just don’t want some stupid never ending, mindless boring grind.
“Okay, let’s do that. Now what happens when the next person comes along and doesn’t like either path?” I did not ask for one specific path, I just ask for direct ways to get it and gave some examples. Not detailed how the path should. So there might be items that have a more fun path and a less fun part. And if you really hate one path there is still the option to grind the gold right?
“Or do we then have to demand a third . . . fourth . . . ninth . . . hundredth alternative acquisition path? ” No there is just one path per item usually. And for all the non-account bound items there is the alternative of grinding gold.
“This is why Gold is the standard for items which may be traded. This is why the grind is allowed to exist.”
Did anybody in this thread suggested we should take gold completely out of the game? Did anybody suggest we should not allow people to grind? I will answer that for you.. no, nobody did. So this is a nice statement but does really not add must to whatever side you are on.
Gold being the primary reward system is what makes this game so NON-grindy. Making items the main reward would simply INCREASE the amount of grind since you’d be shoehorned into doing specific content repeatedly in order to get specific items.
Gold as a reward allows you to focus on playing the content you like and eventually being able to acquire almost anything you want.
It is a vastly superior system to the old item reward schemes.
While I personally can agree that I feel having a game wide currency that’s readily obtainable to be non-grindy, not everyone will see it that way since “grind” is subjective.
Some people are going to feel pressured to only do the content that rewards the greatest amount of gold in the shortest period of time, which is going to pigeon-hole them into very specific content, and yes, I can see that becoming a “grind” for some people. This way they can get whatever shiny they are after, faster. What these people fail to comprehend is if that shiny where to drop instead of gold, they’d end up grinding just as much if not potentially more to achieve it. Where as, with gold, they do have the choice to go do other things, and still make progress toward their end goal. They just don’t exercise that freedom of choice and opt to whine instead.
“Some people are going to feel pressured to only do the content that rewards” If that is a reality of life it does effect the game and so should be something Anet needs into account. Whether you blame the players for it or the game.
“They just don’t exercise that freedom of choice” They now have less choice. The other way they could grind the gold or work towards it.
“and opt to whine instead.” I guess the people who don’t do the grind whine, those who do, are grinding as we speak or already stopped playing the game. Well maybe some eventually came to their senses and rightfully so complained about it.
“Then you’d come back with the exact same complaint”, I did not complain about grind in any of the MMO’s that used this system. So no.
And are you still playing them? Or did you get everything you wanted to get and move on because there was nothing more to do? The fact that you have indeed moved on to yet another game is quite telling.
“Be it grinding for gold or grinding for loot.” With gold it’s like a never ending grind for gold while farming for items (while only partly true, like I said before, not everything has to be RNG based when rewarding items) you have many different farms but if you like to grind gold that is also an option.
You have a kitten ton of options for farming as it stands, so lack of options obviously isn’t your issue. The fact that practically everything rewards gold in this game (including failing events) should contribute to gold not being grindy. Honestly, I don’t think “grind” is your underlying issues here. Your underlying issue is you simply don’t like the base design of the game’s loot aspect. Which, some of that has adjusted, to an extent, with collections; however, I don’t think it’s ever going to adjust as much as you want it to.
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
About it still being a grind but a different one. As for the RNG part that is of course personal but at the very least it’s cut in smaller chunks and then for the not RNG part it’s something you do ones and be rewarded, I don’t think that fits any definition of grind. And people can then work directly towards the items.
It fits my definition of grind, which is “I am repeating this lousy task hoping for that item to drop so I can get on with my life”.
Do I need it? Probably not. Could I get by without it? Probably so. Why am I wasting my time? Because I want it, and this is the way to get it.
Miniature Ice Elemental drops 4% from that enemy? Grind me up some elemental killboxes and get to work. “Esteemed Jumper’s Boots” which can only be found doing a jumping puzzle flawlessly under a time limit, even if they can be traded off? You better believe I’m going to be swearing and grinding puzzles, or swearing and grinding gold.
And honestly, I might not want to get these things. Especially if they’re only cosmetics. I’ll just wave goodbye like the Mini Polar Bear in GW1. But other people will want them, will see it as a grind, and will see it as unreasonably included.
I mean, case in point, just look at the original poster . . . here we have someone who is exceedingly eager to have things, but isn’t willing to do the work which was set out and requires another path. Okay, let’s do that. Now what happens when the next person comes along and doesn’t like either path? “So sorry, too bad”? “Get your big boy pants on and get to work”?
Or do we then have to demand a third . . . fourth . . . ninth . . . hundredth alternative acquisition path?
This is why Gold is the standard for items which may be traded. This is why the grind is allowed to exist. Because, like it or not, any player can . . . in theory . . . apply themselves to getting Gold enough to buy things which can be traded.
““Esteemed Jumper’s Boots” which can only be found doing a jumping puzzle flawlessly under a time limit, even if they can be traded off? You better believe I’m going to be swearing and grinding puzzles, or swearing and grinding gold.”
This is also a good way to reward (I once even gave this example) and it’s not grinding at all. You can get it at the first go and that’s not because of some random luck, no this is skill-based rewards. What is imho a very good way of rewarding, maybe the best. If you do it 100 times it’s likely because you are not very good at them and so it takes you a long time to learn it but grinding is really something different, this is ‘learning’.
“here we have someone who is exceedingly eager to have things, but isn’t willing to do the work which was set out and requires another path.”
This is the weakest and most flawed excuse that keeps coming back. If you complain about grind you basically just want items to be handed to you. Pure nonsense and no matter how many time people repeat it, that does not make it any more true. As a matter of fact, what you likely as for is more challenging content. Because most of the grind in this game are mindless and boring. I ask for a hunt to do want to do ‘the work’ for it. I just don’t want some stupid never ending, mindless boring grind.“Okay, let’s do that. Now what happens when the next person comes along and doesn’t like either path?” I did not ask for one specific path, I just ask for direct ways to get it and gave some examples. Not detailed how the path should. So there might be items that have a more fun path and a less fun part. And if you really hate one path there is still the option to grind the gold right?
“Or do we then have to demand a third . . . fourth . . . ninth . . . hundredth alternative acquisition path? ” No there is just one path per item usually. And for all the non-account bound items there is the alternative of grinding gold.
“This is why Gold is the standard for items which may be traded. This is why the grind is allowed to exist.”
Did anybody in this thread suggested we should take gold completely out of the game? Did anybody suggest we should not allow people to grind? I will answer that for you.. no, nobody did. So this is a nice statement but does really not add must to whatever side you are on.
for the jumping puzzle yes you could do it flawlessly the first time and never need to do it again but most people aren’t able to do JP in one try I know i can’t so then it would become a grind if you could ONLY get it that way as you suggest even if they are only account bound items you don’t want to introduce that do you?
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You can do whatever you want and get the same rewards that I do when I do whatever I want. Doing stuff you want to do is NOT a grind, therefore your premise is incorrect. This game is NOT grindy because you can do what you want and get the rewards. If you CHOOSE to do content you DON’T want to do because you believe it will be faster at reaching the rewards then you are imposing an unnecessary grind on the game YOURSELF. YOU are the GRIND, not the game.
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I don’t want to kill the Super Elite Fire Ooze King 400 times to get the Ooze Crown of Super Eliteness. I want to do whatever I want and still be able to get the Ooze Crown of Super Eliteness. GW2 allows me to do that, thus the specific content for specific item system is INFERIOR to the GW2 system.
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Play the content you like and you won’t be grinding gold, you’ll be getting rewarded for playing how you like to play.
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Your incorrect opinion is not a “debunk”. In reality you can make gold doing whatever you want, and then use that gold to buy whatever you want. YOU just want YOUR style of play to be faster than other styles of play at generating gold so that YOU can skip the playing and satisfy your desire to be instantly satisfied. That’s bad game design.
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No options have been taken away. You have the option to play however you want to play. This game offers MORE options than the other MMOs, which is why it is superior. Again, you just want YOUR CHOICE to be superior to the other playstyles and are masking that request with these ridiculously fallacious arguments about how grindy this game is and how it lacks options when it quite provably is less grindy and have MORE options than it’s competitors.
If you really feel that the current reward system is so bad and that only systems that reward actual grinding (which is what you’ve been asking for) are valid, then I’m sorry but this game will never be “for you”. There are plenty of older MMOs that reward killing the Super Elite Fire Ooze King 400 times already. I’m sure you’d be happier there. But again, I don’t think you are actually being truthful in your claims as I believe it is much more likely that you simply want your play style to be buffed and are using this ludicrous thread to mask your intentions.
“No options have been taken away. You have the option to play however you want to play. This game offers MORE options than the other MMOs”
Your complete story is build around this idea. Basically: GW2 gives you every option because you buy stuff with gold and can get gold in many ways.
But there are 3 big flaws in your idea that undermine the rest of what you say.
1. Working directly towards an items is also an option.. an option you do not have in GW2 but do have in many other games. The hunt. Like the example I gave before, Hunting the dragon to then get kill it and have his head on your wall. That is what some people prefer over killing rabbits to sell the skin and then buy the head. Basically this first option does not exist.
2. In those other games many items (just as in GW2) are not account-bound. That means the gold option that according to you is so superior in GW2 in fact exist in all those games. That means all those positives you claim to be unique for GW2 in fact exist also in those games, making GW2 not superior at that part.
3. Many people will not earn the gold they need for the rewards they like simply by playing the other content they like (forgetting about the content of directly hunting for items).
About going to another game. Many people doing that is a problem for the game, and yes going for items in GW2 I don’t do anymore. Once in a while I will play another MMO for that and have a lot of fun doing that there. Still, when HoT gets released you would want to hold all those players that like this type of content, this time around.
The reason I am still here is because of the other things I like, like JP’s, some WvW, guild-missions and in HoT hopefully some more WvW, guild-halls (when implemented interesting, so not by just another currency grind) and more guild-related stuff. All things that btw do not even remotely reward me for all the items I would like to have. And I already shorten the list when comparing to what I would collect in those other mmo’s.
“Then you’d come back with the exact same complaint”, I did not complain about grind in any of the MMO’s that used this system. So no.
And are you still playing them? Or did you get everything you wanted to get and move on because there was nothing more to do? The fact that you have indeed moved on to yet another game is quite telling.
“Be it grinding for gold or grinding for loot.” With gold it’s like a never ending grind for gold while farming for items (while only partly true, like I said before, not everything has to be RNG based when rewarding items) you have many different farms but if you like to grind gold that is also an option.
You have a kitten ton of options for farming as it stands, so lack of options obviously isn’t your issue. The fact that practically everything rewards gold in this game (including failing events) should contribute to gold not being grindy. Honestly, I don’t think “grind” is your underlying issues here. Your underlying issue is you simply don’t like the base design of the game’s loot aspect. Which, some of that has adjusted, to an extent, with collections; however, I don’t think it’s ever going to adjust as much as you want it to.
Well one of them had a movement-system I disliked (click with your mouse on the ground), another got shut down (oow and there where many reasons for that, but game mechanics / game-play weren’t one of them TCoS) and one I still play but is P2P so I don’t play it regular (Did when playing on private servers, then moved on to official ones but then stopped playing on regular basis), just once in a while. So I only really ‘moved on’ from one of them.
“Or did you get everything you wanted to get and move on because there was nothing more to do?” No, they keep adding stuff and that easily keeps me busy, it did even when I did play on regular basis.
“Your underlying issue is you simply don’t like the base design of the game’s loot aspect.” Yes, what results in not having the option to directly work towards an item but only the option to grind for gold.
“I don’t think it’s ever going to adjust as much as you want it to.” I have my doubts about that as well (mainly because it’s mostly the way it is because of their cash-shop focus and changing that is not something they will easily do) as it would be a shame because like it or not, many people find the game grindy or boring because of that. Scare them away again after HoT by still using the same system and they will not come back. What really means the end of everything GW2 could have been. (Not the end of GW2.. just for the record, but it had potential to be much more / bigger)
This grind being one of the bigger flaws imho.
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““Esteemed Jumper’s Boots” which can only be found doing a jumping puzzle flawlessly under a time limit, even if they can be traded off? You better believe I’m going to be swearing and grinding puzzles, or swearing and grinding gold.”
This is also a good way to reward (I once even gave this example) and it’s not grinding at all. You can get it at the first go and that’s not because of some random luck, no this is skill-based rewards. What is imho a very good way of rewarding, maybe the best. If you do it 100 times it’s likely because you are not very good at them and so it takes you a long time to learn it but grinding is really something different, this is ‘learning’.
“here we have someone who is exceedingly eager to have things, but isn’t willing to do the work which was set out and requires another path.”
This is the weakest and most flawed excuse that keeps coming back. If you complain about grind you basically just want items to be handed to you. Pure nonsense and no matter how many time people repeat it, that does not make it any more true. As a matter of fact, what you likely as for is more challenging content. Because most of the grind in this game are mindless and boring. I ask for a hunt to do want to do ‘the work’ for it. I just don’t want some stupid never ending, mindless boring grind.“Okay, let’s do that. Now what happens when the next person comes along and doesn’t like either path?” I did not ask for one specific path, I just ask for direct ways to get it and gave some examples. Not detailed how the path should. So there might be items that have a more fun path and a less fun part. And if you really hate one path there is still the option to grind the gold right?
“Or do we then have to demand a third . . . fourth . . . ninth . . . hundredth alternative acquisition path? ” No there is just one path per item usually. And for all the non-account bound items there is the alternative of grinding gold.
“This is why Gold is the standard for items which may be traded. This is why the grind is allowed to exist.”
Did anybody in this thread suggested we should take gold completely out of the game? Did anybody suggest we should not allow people to grind? I will answer that for you.. no, nobody did. So this is a nice statement but does really not add must to whatever side you are on.for the jumping puzzle yes you could do it flawlessly the first time and never need to do it again but most people aren’t able to do JP in one try I know i can’t so then it would become a grind if you could ONLY get it that way as you suggest even if they are only account bound items you don’t want to introduce that do you?
“if you could ONLY get it that way as you suggest”
Where did I suggest that? Please quote!
Pretty sure I did not say this. However I would put a limit on getting it else people who would be very good at it could get them a lot and the item would have not much value left. So maybe you could keep it not account-bound but you could only get it once on your account.
I think it would be nice if some items would be account-bound but in my suggestions I always said most items could or should not be simply so the grinders can still grind.
Many people did have to do Liadri many times just to master it but I did never hear anybody say that was a grind. We are now talking about a challenge or skill-based rewards. Completely unrelated to grind. Also you do not have to do it many times, you simply have to increase your skills what you can also do by doing easy JP’s first and getting to do harder and harder ones (for example).
Doing the same JP many times does not help you a bid further to getting the reward, nor is the reward being hold back by an x number of times. It’s locked behind a skill-level. What you have to do is getting better, nothing else.
for the jumping puzzle yes you could do it flawlessly the first time and never need to do it again but most people aren’t able to do JP in one try I know i can’t so then it would become a grind if you could ONLY get it that way as you suggest even if they are only account bound items you don’t want to introduce that do you?
playing things many times to get better isnt really grind, because its not based on how many times you do it, but how well you do it. I mean, you may find it boring, or frustrating, but thats not a grind.
Also if something is so difficult you cant easily win, most attempts will be fairly different, and the moment to moment gameplay will be a lot more compelling (because every moment matters)
essentially you can not beat difficulty by doing the same things over and over again, if you play the same, you will basically guarantee failure.
now im not saying difficulty will be the perfect solution for everything, but beating something one time that is skill based, cant really be called a grind.
I return to those zones because I enjoy going there. I think they’re pretty, or fun, or I go to do an event I used to enjoy doing, or find an event I’ve never seen.
Every time I pass through zones, I find stuff I never noticed before, or noticed once but don’t remember. That’s why I go back to old zones.
And of course, I’m in those zones when we do guild missions, I’m in those zones for jumping puzzles. I’m in those zones because guildies are in those zones and I’m hanging out with them.
Your focus is the carrot, so you assume the only reason anyone would ever go to a zone is for the carrot. kittenumption is bad.
I often wander around just TO wander around because I enjoy wandering around. Sometimes I just like to try to climb mountains, not because there’s a chest up there, or because there’s a reward up there. Just to see if I can do it.
I don’t know why you think I return to zones for world bosses, since the world boss train feels a whole lot like grind to me and as already mentioned, I tend not to do that.
The game is out for approximately 2.5 years. Which means you average a legendary every half a year. While I do not doubt that you do indeed engage in the activities you just described, you might want to consider how much of your game time is truly spent on it and how much you are actually engaged in the carrot-chasing.
As far as I’m aware, fooling around hearts and climbing mountains does not magically shower you in wealth. If it indeed did, a forum reader or two might be interested to learn more – including myself.
not hearts per say but just running around higher level zones doing events can get you quite a good amount of money usually particularly ones in ORR or SW where you can get decent silk drops/turn ins
I play a lot. But that doesn’t mean I’m chasing carrots. You’re so bent on the carrot that’s what you focus on. My focus is on my guild and helping people. That’s what I focus on.
It’s true that often people need a fifth for a dungeon, or need help leveling in fractals and sometimes, often even, I’m the person helping. But I’m running that dungeon or that fractal to help a guildie. I do get rewards, because that game gives them to me, but my reward is spending time with friends in game.
I’ve run the Silverwastes with the guild, because I have fun spending time with my guild. I’m not really sure what you’re having trouble understanding here.
As I go along, I pick up stuff, I get gold, sometimes good drops. I did have a couple of VERY lucky drops along the way which really helped. One of them was a precusor. I sell a lot of stuff on the trading post. And I gather everything. You might consider that grinding, but I find it relaxing. Just running around gathering stuff at night while I can’t sleep, doing events, often in early zones.
For example I spent a lot of time in Diessa Plateau because I enjoy the zone. I like it. It’s fun for me even after a couple of years. And between iron and softwood there’s plenty of money to make just mining and gathering. If you consider that grind, well, I don’t.
Well one of them had a movement-system I disliked (click with your mouse on the ground), another got shut down (oow and there where many reasons for that, but game mechanics / game-play weren’t one of them TCoS) and one I still play but is P2P so I don’t play it regular (Did when playing on private servers, then moved on to official ones but then stopped playing on regular basis), just once in a while. So I only really ‘moved on’ from one of them.
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The only valid excuse among all those is the one that was shut down. If you truly liked the game, click to move or monthly subs wouldn’t be that big a deal.
“Or did you get everything you wanted to get and move on because there was nothing more to do?” No, they keep adding stuff and that easily keeps me busy, it did even when I did play on regular basis.
And yet….here you are….
“Your underlying issue is you simply don’t like the base design of the game’s loot aspect.” Yes, what results in not having the option to directly work towards an item but only the option to grind for gold.
“I don’t think it’s ever going to adjust as much as you want it to.” I have my doubts about that as well (mainly because it’s mostly the way it is because of their cash-shop focus and changing that is not something they will easily do) as it would be a shame because like it or not, many people find the game grindy or boring because of that. Scare them away again after HoT by still using the same system and they will not come back. What really means the end of everything GW2 could have been. (Not the end of GW2.. just for the record, but it had potential to be much more / bigger)
This grind being one of the bigger flaws imho.
The only “grind” that exists is in your head. Based on your logic, since you can’t work toward an item specifically (not gold, not rng, not currency) the entire game is grind.
So…why are you here again?
Don’t look at me like that. Whatever you’ve heard, it’s probably not true.
““Esteemed Jumper’s Boots” which can only be found doing a jumping puzzle flawlessly under a time limit, even if they can be traded off? You better believe I’m going to be swearing and grinding puzzles, or swearing and grinding gold.”
This is also a good way to reward (I once even gave this example) and it’s not grinding at all. You can get it at the first go and that’s not because of some random luck, no this is skill-based rewards. What is imho a very good way of rewarding, maybe the best. If you do it 100 times it’s likely because you are not very good at them and so it takes you a long time to learn it but grinding is really something different, this is ‘learning’.
No, it’s grinding. You can call it what you like, but grind is grind. Farming is grinding too, but there’s a greater tolerance for it because it’s expected to exist.
Please don’t ruin what was a good route because you choose to do this “semantic” sparring over what constitutes grind. You started off fine saying “grind is grind”.
“here we have someone who is exceedingly eager to have things, but isn’t willing to do the work which was set out and requires another path.”
This is the weakest and most flawed excuse that keeps coming back. If you complain about grind you basically just want items to be handed to you.
Well, what you’ll wind up with is inflicting more grind into the game, under the illusion of alleviating it.
Also, please note, I didn’t talk about you wanting it handed to you. I talked about you wanting to avoid the current path of work by adding alternate paths of work. Which are still grind for someone out there.
And if you really hate one path there is still the option to grind the gold right?
So, are we now saying that grind is okay, after trying to build a path around it? Please, please tell me this is not what you are meaning here.
“This is why Gold is the standard for items which may be traded. This is why the grind is allowed to exist.”
Did anybody in this thread suggested we should take gold completely out of the game? Did anybody suggest we should not allow people to grind? I will answer that for you.. no, nobody did. So this is a nice statement but does really not add must to whatever side you are on.
I’m not on a side. In case you were wondering. I’m using this as an intellectual exercise to try to discuss things and sound them off as well as collecting what other players think about ideas being discussed.
Which is best served by lobbing ideas into the pool and seeing who bites.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
I play a lot. But that doesn’t mean I’m chasing carrots. You’re so bent on the carrot that’s what you focus on. My focus is on my guild and helping people. That’s what I focus on.
Pretty much how I approach the game on those currently-rare nights I can get my network to behave properly and have time to play for a few hours before bed.
Drop in, look for something to do and just go off in a wild journey from one thing and tangenting off to another, until I decide I played long enough. Recently part of it is -learning my warrior.
Seeking assistants for the Asuran Catapult Project. Applicants will be tested for aerodynamics.
“It’s only a grind if you mind.”
Well one of them had a movement-system I disliked (click with your mouse on the ground), another got shut down (oow and there where many reasons for that, but game mechanics / game-play weren’t one of them TCoS) and one I still play but is P2P so I don’t play it regular (Did when playing on private servers, then moved on to official ones but then stopped playing on regular basis), just once in a while. So I only really ‘moved on’ from one of them.
-The only valid excuse among all those is the one that was shut down. If you truly liked the game, click to move or monthly subs wouldn’t be that big a deal.
“Or did you get everything you wanted to get and move on because there was nothing more to do?” No, they keep adding stuff and that easily keeps me busy, it did even when I did play on regular basis.
And yet….here you are….
“Your underlying issue is you simply don’t like the base design of the game’s loot aspect.” Yes, what results in not having the option to directly work towards an item but only the option to grind for gold.
“I don’t think it’s ever going to adjust as much as you want it to.” I have my doubts about that as well (mainly because it’s mostly the way it is because of their cash-shop focus and changing that is not something they will easily do) as it would be a shame because like it or not, many people find the game grindy or boring because of that. Scare them away again after HoT by still using the same system and they will not come back. What really means the end of everything GW2 could have been. (Not the end of GW2.. just for the record, but it had potential to be much more / bigger)
This grind being one of the bigger flaws imho.
The only “grind” that exists is in your head. Based on your logic, since you can’t work toward an item specifically (not gold, not rng, not currency) the entire game is grind.
So…why are you here again?
“The only valid excuse among all those is the one that was shut down. If you truly liked the game, click to move or monthly subs wouldn’t be that big a deal. " Lol, so you decide for me what is a big deal? That is not how it work.
I could explain to you why they where big deals for me but that does not really matter, what matters is that they where big deals and you are not qualified to decide for other people what is or what isn’t a big enough deal to stop playing. (not to mention I did not stop playing one of the two left, I just play it on a less regular basis)
“And yet….here you are….” And I already explained why.. that was not because of a lack of things to do. Not even close.
“The only “grind” that exists is in your head. Based on your logic, since you can’t work toward an item specifically (not gold, not rng, not currency) the entire game is grind." This sentence does not make a lot of sense, or really it make no sense at all.
If you could not work towards any item (was is untrue, but true for most items) getting most items is a grind. That does not make the entire game a grind. How does not being able to work directly towards skin x make JP y a grind? Yeah like I said, that makes no sense and does not come close to any logic of mine. Your logic of what is the result of my logic is what is false here.
“So…why are you here again?”
The guild / guild-mission. Before also JP’s and WvW. Waiting for HoT hoping WvW will be interesting again, there will be some new JP’s and I very much hope the guild-halls will give reasons to work directly towards goals with the guild. Like unlocking a portal in your guild-hall by doing some specific content. Or really hoping this game will still become what it could and should have been.
I return to those zones because I enjoy going there. I think they’re pretty, or fun, or I go to do an event I used to enjoy doing, or find an event I’ve never seen.
Every time I pass through zones, I find stuff I never noticed before, or noticed once but don’t remember. That’s why I go back to old zones.
And of course, I’m in those zones when we do guild missions, I’m in those zones for jumping puzzles. I’m in those zones because guildies are in those zones and I’m hanging out with them.
Your focus is the carrot, so you assume the only reason anyone would ever go to a zone is for the carrot. kittenumption is bad.
I often wander around just TO wander around because I enjoy wandering around. Sometimes I just like to try to climb mountains, not because there’s a chest up there, or because there’s a reward up there. Just to see if I can do it.
I don’t know why you think I return to zones for world bosses, since the world boss train feels a whole lot like grind to me and as already mentioned, I tend not to do that.
The game is out for approximately 2.5 years. Which means you average a legendary every half a year. While I do not doubt that you do indeed engage in the activities you just described, you might want to consider how much of your game time is truly spent on it and how much you are actually engaged in the carrot-chasing.
As far as I’m aware, fooling around hearts and climbing mountains does not magically shower you in wealth. If it indeed did, a forum reader or two might be interested to learn more – including myself.
not hearts per say but just running around higher level zones doing events can get you quite a good amount of money usually particularly ones in ORR or SW where you can get decent silk drops/turn ins
I play a lot. But that doesn’t mean I’m chasing carrots. You’re so bent on the carrot that’s what you focus on. My focus is on my guild and helping people. That’s what I focus on.
It’s true that often people need a fifth for a dungeon, or need help leveling in fractals and sometimes, often even, I’m the person helping. But I’m running that dungeon or that fractal to help a guildie. I do get rewards, because that game gives them to me, but my reward is spending time with friends in game.
I’ve run the Silverwastes with the guild, because I have fun spending time with my guild. I’m not really sure what you’re having trouble understanding here.
As I go along, I pick up stuff, I get gold, sometimes good drops. I did have a couple of VERY lucky drops along the way which really helped. One of them was a precusor. I sell a lot of stuff on the trading post. And I gather everything. You might consider that grinding, but I find it relaxing. Just running around gathering stuff at night while I can’t sleep, doing events, often in early zones.
For example I spent a lot of time in Diessa Plateau because I enjoy the zone. I like it. It’s fun for me even after a couple of years. And between iron and softwood there’s plenty of money to make just mining and gathering. If you consider that grind, well, I don’t.
In this thread you also said many of your guild-members did grind all the time.
So it seems you basically help them our grinding, only you don’t qualify it as grinding but helping out those guild-members? That makes it a little understandable. But trust me, if you avoid the grindy content because you dislike it, you will not make the gold by just playing to buy all those items.
So “Play the way you want” and earn the money along the way is just simply not how it works. In fact what I liked a lot was defending in WvW at some point I had to stop buying upgrades simply because I would run out of money. So that was not chancing items or whatever, just “playing the way I want” and that did not make me gold but it cost me gold. JP’s didn’t make me a lot of gold and so only guild-missions or the moment I did run with a group to take another keep did make me the money (And they while the group moved on to the next keep I stayed to build it up).
Now even when I did stop with buying those expensive upgrades the money I made was not close to enough to buy what I would like. (not to mention that still I would prefer the hunt).
Thats just the reality for most people. If you don’t like the grindy content (Like brainlessly running with some group doing the same thing over and over again) or doing dungeons every day then you will not make the money you need along the way.
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That you consider farming, grinding is fine. I think I already said that in the previous comment you reacted on.
What I said that was not a grind was something like quests and that is because there is one specific task (content) that rewards you one item and there is no need for repeating it.
Also the reason why farming is not as bad, or like you say, people have a higher tolerance for it does not have to do anything with it being expected (or not much, surely not for me). While there can be many reasons (depending on the person), The fact that it overall can have higher drop-rates and so are smaller ‘grinds’ is likely one reason, the fact that you don’t see a number going up so there is less of an exact time when you get it, the fact that there are many different farms in stead of this one big grind for gold (or other currency) and of course the fact that every time there is the rush of ‘will’ it drop are all possible reasons why people like this better.
Not that any of that matters. You say yourself that there is a higher tolerance for this, so people like it better. That alone should be more then enough reason to consider is a superior system and put it in and stop acting as if the current grind in this game is just fine. It isn’t, you even say in this comment this is a way people like more (have a higher tolerance of).
“Please don’t ruin what was a good route because you choose to do this “semantic” sparring over what constitutes grind. You started off fine saying “grind is grind”. " Not sure what you are referring to? I even said in that post that I could understand / agree that you would see the RNG part as grind. The only thing I said about that was by definition no grind where the non-rng parts of my suggestion, like a quest that rewards you an item. There is no repeating in that and repetition seems to be an elements everybody agrees on that needs to be in grind to name it grind? So that has nothing to do with semantic, if this was what you where referring to.
“Well, what you’ll wind up with is inflicting more grind into the game, under the illusion of alleviating it.” Why more, at best it would be another type of grind to get the game item. (when we define those farms as a grind what is fine by me). But that does not seem to add to the total amount of grind as it are two ways you work for the same thing. So the amount of grinding going on will be the same. (And then we forget about the non-rng (completely non-grind) parts of my suggestion that people would also move to what would reduce the amount of grinding going on).
“Also, please note, I didn’t talk about you wanting it handed to you.”
I have no idea in what other way I can interpret
your statement “here we have someone who is exceedingly eager to have things, but isn’t willing to do the work”. If it said, he does not like the current content, thats true as that content is for me the grind I complain about. But placing it like this really says I would want a more easy way out.
“So, are we now saying that grind is okay, after trying to build a path around it?”
For me the grind is not oke. I dislike it a lot. (It however is for those deafening it one would think?) However in my suggestion I always left the way open for people to grind. Simply because I know some people like that. Now if those defending the grind say the current gold-grind is great because you can get the reward by doing multiple things, it’s a little strange they then attack my suggestion with the ‘then you have to do that content’ and then suddenly the gold-grind option they loved so much is not valid anymore. That option is still there. I dislike it but if you (you in general) say it’s so great then don’t come and tell me saying this is not a valid argument.
For me personal I would not mind it completely being locked behind content you might not like to do. Thats my personal opinion, but my suggestion does leave room for this alternative grind as I think that is best for the game (I don’t just think about what I like best). So if it being locked behind specific content is something you dislike then there is that option. If I had the option to grind for it or work directly towards it doing specific content I did not like very much I would still do that because the grind would still be far worse. But thats personal.
Btw I would put similar items behind many different types or content to minimize the problem of having content in your way you dislike.
“I’m using this as an intellectual exercise to try to discuss things and sound them off as well as collecting what other players think about ideas being discussed. " Well then that was maybe your problem with the grind option I gave. I gave it to please the other side, to to please myself. For me there is no problem in having items locked behind content, but it’s something those liking the current gold grind system seem to have a problem with.