Guild Wars 2

mtpelion.4562:

tigirius.9014:

Not everyone has access to the same loot tables

not sure why people can’t realize this fact. There’s a reason why people are reporting unlucky accounts and it’s not because they like to, go to any other game out there with individual loot and you’ll not see a single forums post about unlucky accounts.

This statement is false. See here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/I-have-a-question-about-the-economy/page/15#post4487484

Okay let me point out two things for you. Recently there was yet another report of a bug that caused whole chests to disappear from events and from dungeons and there’ve been ongoing reports of loot just not dropping at all for whole accounts.

The last time we saw these two things together was when there were loot issues with the game that took them 9 whole months and thousands posting to get them to realize these were not the imaginations of the players. They even told everyone the same things Johns telling people now which is it’s all in our heads.

It’s not when you look at your bags and they have nothing in them but skulls that means you’re not getting your drops, when you do major boss events and the chests never appear that means it never appears.

So historically we’ve been told that ever since DR was introduced that there’s never been any problem with it, that everything is fine, and that everyone’s experience with getting loot will be equal but historically the evidence has been contrary to that statement. DR doesn’t allow people to farm, there’s been a well known anti-legit farmer campaign in this title for years. So when you sit there and say just because the economist says these experiences that thousands of players are having don’t exist, it’s really not honest is it.

The grind is here to stay until something is done about DR because no other system in the world of MMO development stops people from getting loot entirely, DR does that. RNG at least allows something anything other than greys to drop, DR doesn’t allow anything to drop sometimes and it even cuts you off from loot entirely which is why all of the rest of the studios out there stopped using it years ago.

DR is quite frankly adding negatively to the grind problem because in other titles you can farm for the materials or use your gold, here in GW2 you might be stuck with an unlucky account which would prevent ANY character on your account from getting the type of materials you need for ascended. Please, examine the evidence rather then listening to the claims because they claimed that it wasn’t happening before and they were wrong then too.

Anyway several things need to change in order to make it a diverse system and not a grind dependent totally on the TP. Karma could be used for the items needed from the karma vendors, there could be a system change in which salvaging produces more than the drops from RNG bags, and there could also be a system in which one could purchase Ascended gear with Karma instead of crafting everything or at the very least items that need to be crafted in order to make the ascended weapons.

Bernie.8674:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Grind = the REQUIREMENT to REPEAT content over and over and over again to get NECCESARY equipent to proceed the game.

This game has no grinds unless you selfimpose them.

Ascneded armor is NOT neccesary.
Legendaries are not neccesary,
Skins are not neccesary.

I’ll give you the other two, but ascended armor IS necessary if you want to have the best stats the game has to offer. Would you be content being stuck at level 79 forever? By your logic it’s not necessary.

I haven’t been bringing this up because every time I do it derails the thread, but five years ago ArenaNet said that they did not intend a grind for ascended armor, and just last month Colin reiterated that they still hold to that. So whether it is or isn’t necessary, the fact that acquiring it is a grind conflicts with ArenaNet’s stated intentions.

Necessity is not defined by the player, it’s defined by what is necessary from a game mechanics. Here is why … that perception of necessary could also be used to justify why Anet should just mail me a full set of anything I want —- which would be ridiculous.

Obtena.7952:

Necessity is not defined by the player, it’s defined by what is necessary from a game mechanics. Here is why … that perception of necessary could also be used to justify why Anet should just mail me a full set of anything I want —- which would be ridiculous.

People keep bringing up necessity, but necessity is irrelevant. ArenaNet stated that in their game players were not going to have to grind for BiS gear. It’s that simple. Bringing up necessity is straw-manning the issue.

Here’s my stance: By the time you’ve hit level 80, completed your personal story, and attained 100% map completion you should have obtained your BiS gear under a system that works as ArenaNet claims.

How are you making the leap from that to “Anet should just mail me a full set of anything I want?”

ArenaNet claims they never intended for ascended gear to be grindy. In my opinion they failed miserably at that. I believe that even WoW’s gearing system is less grindy than the current one because at least in that one you have to make your way through an entire raid to get your drops. Under the current ArenaNet system you just spend all your time trash farming in Champion Trains/Dry Top/Silverwastes/Living Story du Jour. As much as I’ve grown to hate raiding, it is still more engaging than defending four forts that have identical mechanics ad nauseum.

Some claim that this isn’t grind because they were able to get what they wanted by playing the way they wanted. Good for them, but when they clarified how they liked to play, it turned out that the way they want to play was to grind. The other common argument is that it’s not grinding because you can pick from a variety of grinds. You can run Champ Trains, WvW, Dry Top, and/or Silverwastes. Sorry, but all that crap is the same to me: repetitive, mind numbing, and only fun for about 45 minutes. LIke the title of this thread says, “Grind is Grind.” Just because you have 4 different forms of grind to pick from doesn’t make it “not grind.”

Bernie.8674:

The other common argument is that it’s not grinding because you can pick from a variety of grinds. You can run Champ Trains, WvW, Dry Top, and/or Silverwastes. Sorry, but all that crap is the same to me: repetitive, mind numbing, and only fun for about 45 minutes. LIke the title of this thread says, “Grind is Grind.” Just because you have 4 different forms of grind to pick from doesn’t make it “not grind.”

BUT, it doesn’t fit into what the developers define grind as. I also agree with what Anet defines it as. The fact that you can do anything to get rewards that progress you towards any end game goal you set for your self makes it not a grind. If that is the case any activity you do in game is a grind, which is a stupid way of looking at it. Some activities are more rewarding than others so you can find more efficient ways to get to that end goal quicker, but that goes to the self imposed repeating of content.

It is all circular arguments here when there is no grind in this game, unless you consider playing the content as a grind. If that is the case find other content to play.

And don’t cry about there being a gold standard, I for one am grateful there is a solid currency that hasn’t been destroyed. There is nothing less realistic than a living breathing world without a solid currency. Good currency = better immersion.

Bernie.8674:

Obtena.7952:

Necessity is not defined by the player, it’s defined by what is necessary from a game mechanics. Here is why … that perception of necessary could also be used to justify why Anet should just mail me a full set of anything I want —- which would be ridiculous.

People keep bringing up necessity, but necessity is irrelevant. ArenaNet stated that in their game players were not going to have to grind for BiS gear. It’s that simple. Bringing up necessity is straw-manning the issue.

Here’s my stance: By the time you’ve hit level 80, completed your personal story, and attained 100% map completion you should have obtained your BiS gear under a system that works as ArenaNet claims.

How are you making the leap from that to “Anet should just mail me a full set of anything I want?”

ArenaNet claims they never intended for ascended gear to be grindy. In my opinion they failed miserably at that. I believe that even WoW’s gearing system is less grindy than the current one because at least in that one you have to make your way through an entire raid to get your drops. Under the current ArenaNet system you just spend all your time trash farming in Champion Trains/Dry Top/Silverwastes/Living Story du Jour. As much as I’ve grown to hate raiding, it is still more engaging than defending four forts that have identical mechanics ad nauseum.

Some claim that this isn’t grind because they were able to get what they wanted by playing the way they wanted. Good for them, but when they clarified how they liked to play, it turned out that the way they want to play was to grind. The other common argument is that it’s not grinding because you can pick from a variety of grinds. You can run Champ Trains, WvW, Dry Top, and/or Silverwastes. Sorry, but all that crap is the same to me: repetitive, mind numbing, and only fun for about 45 minutes. LIke the title of this thread says, “Grind is Grind.” Just because you have 4 different forms of grind to pick from doesn’t make it “not grind.”

I’m playing WoW right now I have to say that it’s far more fun imo I actually get rewarded for my time. I go through and get enough currency to buy a piece of gear for one slot within 4 days of completing the tasks necessary. They recent expanded it to double the bonus because it was previously too slow. Then once you get those items (let’s say it’s an Exotic) you go through the process of getting together some materials to upgrade your item which is another type of currency that is earned in a different way. I’ve upgraded my items at a ratio of 1.5 weeks per item with their current system.

Far superior than the ascended grind here in a game that was touted as being developed by people who don’t believe people should grind or repeat the same activities I might add.

So, when people come here to defend these things I’m always amazed because it’s obvious to anyone anyone at all who’s played multiple mmo’s for multiple years I’ve been playing for roughly 15 years and I’ve seen all sorts of progression methods in my time, this my friend is a grind. I like how you pointed out that these people are a minority who like the grind, casuals like me make up the majority of the gaming community in the PC mmo lifestyle, it’s been proven in every major test by every company in every pocket subgenre of the MMO genre. We are the market, so I find it interesting that they are continuing to listen to basically what comprises of the same community that their sister game was made for, Wildstar. If ever you had enough evidence for the argument that the 1% should not be listened to when it comes to game development, that game is it. There is no doubt now that the old school gaming styles cannot sustain games and frankly grinding for gear is one of those old school systems of progression that do not belong in modern mmo’s .

I agree with the OP it doesn’t matter if the minority likes it, it doesn’t matter if people say it’s optional for themselves, and it doesn’t matter if “some” people can actually farm because they don’t suffer from unlucky accounts, what matters is this level of time gating doesn’t belong in a modern game with the type of audiences that Anet is trying to attract with statements they’ve made in their interviews and in their manifesto. No one can argue that when they said they don’t believe in grinding, that they therefore shouldn’t have grinding in any form in their game. It just shouldn’t be here and they’d improve their game greatly if they’d include in their update to the world exploration completion the ability to get ascended gear and/or parts from karma, or from salvaging which would change up their TP centric nature of the game.

Bernie.8674:

People keep bringing up necessity, but necessity is irrelevant.

It’s not irrelevant at all. Without demonstrating a reward as a result of repeating content is a requirement to advance or access other parts of the game, it’s not a grind. It is in fact, that ‘requirement’ element is a critical part of the definition that Anet has used to target their desire to make the game not grindy. If you ignore that ‘requirements’ element of the definition, you can argue that EVERYTHING in this game is a grind … or any other MMO in fact. I’ve NEVER played a game where you do something JUST once or the game just hands you whatever you want. People aren’t cognizant of how necessary repeatable elements of MMO’s are. Ignorant would be a better word because when they hear that, they don’t believe it.

If a specific element is not a requirement, then it’s just a player’s choice to do whatever content they what to get something; at that point, it’s only a grind if the player chooses to make it so. If it suits you at this point to say that having to do anything is a grind, so be it, but your argument isn’t going to garner much appreciation as designing the game around your individual whims isn’t a realistic proposal to eliminate grind. It fact, it’s nonsense.

Obtena.7952:

Bernie.8674:

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Grind = the REQUIREMENT to REPEAT content over and over and over again to get NECCESARY equipent to proceed the game.

This game has no grinds unless you selfimpose them.

Ascneded armor is NOT neccesary.
Legendaries are not neccesary,
Skins are not neccesary.

I’ll give you the other two, but ascended armor IS necessary if you want to have the best stats the game has to offer. Would you be content being stuck at level 79 forever? By your logic it’s not necessary.

I haven’t been bringing this up because every time I do it derails the thread, but five years ago ArenaNet said that they did not intend a grind for ascended armor, and just last month Colin reiterated that they still hold to that. So whether it is or isn’t necessary, the fact that acquiring it is a grind conflicts with ArenaNet’s stated intentions.

Necessity is not defined by the player, it’s defined by what is necessary from a game mechanics. Here is why … that perception of necessary could also be used to justify why Anet should just mail me a full set of anything I want —- which would be ridiculous.

The necessity for this game is rare armor and trinkets for all PvE, WvW, Dungeons and so on above lvl 39 and is viable until 79. Below lvl 30 they will be downscaled.

The necessity for this game is exotic armor and trinkets for all PvE, WvW, Dungeons and so on above lvl 68. and is viable on 80 Below lvl 65 they will be downscaled.

The necessity for this game is ascended armor and trinkets for all
-Level 10+ Fractals (where the infusion slot actually matters, though you can get 5 AR by making a lvl 78 slot exotic as well, unlocking until 19….)
-Level 39+ Fractals (where the WEAPON infusion slots actually matter), and
-Level 49+ Fractals (where the ARMOR infusion slots actually matter), and
-Elite WvW (where the infusion slots actually matter)
-lvl 80 Dungeons (CoE, HotW, Arah) (where the additional 70 stat points could be usefull, but prohibitively expensive (8 defensive slots requiring omi infusions, 6 others requiring normal infusions (together about 1000 gold for best in slot for an almost insignificant amount of dmg , certainly if downscaled.)
-lvl 80 Map content (including cursed shore, ssouthsun cove, dry top and Silverwastes).
Below lvl 80 they will be downscaled, including infusions..

I can see the logics for PvE to earn the trinkets, or to buy ascneded weapons,
but the armor has most value in WvW. There is no actual content which benefits from 5% armor boost which will be downscaled in 90% of all content except maybe lvl 40+ fractals….

Until new infusions are available and the gamefocus shifts towards ascneded armor, this game is non grindy.

Also forcing yourself to make a character then fitting it with ascneded armor, weapns and trinkets is unneccesary as a starter, you wil not play high level fractals as you need to do 49 levels of fractals and earn your infusions and trinkets, You need to level 230 levels in WvW before gaining basic effectiveness (in this case 100 power/condi and 250 vitality)…. Untill you have those things you might have ascneded gear but actually playing the content will make you stronger faster.

So why grind instead of playing the game and earn things as you go along, and freeing yourself from the illusion you need to work the game to get max stuff instantly. There is not much eft when you have it. Yes doing the content on top tier gear nice. But if you were fanatic enough to leave content for what it was to get BIS, you wil also not be bothered to do content you do not need your precious BIS gear for, denying yourself 90% of the present game?

I feel like this entire conversation would have been avoided if the dev team said it’s a different (and arguably better, but I’m not even going near that conversation) type of grind instead of saying there’s absolutely no grind at all. Although I admit it doesn’t have the same marketing “oomph” as opposed to saying there’s no grind.

In any case, there’s a general law about using absolutes: don’t use them.

That would not have prevented the conversation because people don’t care what Anet has to say in the first place. They have convinced themselves there is grind. Somehow they think obtuse pedantry over definitions and this form of forum badgering into shaming them is a compelling argument for Anet to throw out their approach to the game and just ‘take the grind out of it’.

Obtena.7952:

That would not have prevented the conversation because people don’t care what Anet has to say in the first place. They have convinced themselves there is grind. Somehow they think obtuse pedantry over definitions is a compelling argument for Anet to throw out their approach to the game and just ‘take the grind out of it’.

Arguing over pedantics. That’s what internet forums are for aren’t they? It’s like a group of guys arguing over which identical twin sister is hotter.

Ha, true that, but some people think their approach will actually win them that argument AND result in getting together with the hot twin …

Obtena.7952:

Ha, true that, but some people think their approach will actually win them that argument AND result in getting together with the hot twin …

Bingo.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Satenia.9025:

Vayne.8563:

snip

The game is out for approximately 2.5 years. Which means you average a legendary every half a year. While I do not doubt that you do indeed engage in the activities you just described, you might want to consider how much of your game time is truly spent on it and how much you are actually engaged in the carrot-chasing.

As far as I’m aware, fooling around hearts and climbing mountains does not magically shower you in wealth. If it indeed did, a forum reader or two might be interested to learn more – including myself.

not hearts per say but just running around higher level zones doing events can get you quite a good amount of money usually particularly ones in ORR or SW where you can get decent silk drops/turn ins

I play a lot. But that doesn’t mean I’m chasing carrots. You’re so bent on the carrot that’s what you focus on. My focus is on my guild and helping people. That’s what I focus on.

It’s true that often people need a fifth for a dungeon, or need help leveling in fractals and sometimes, often even, I’m the person helping. But I’m running that dungeon or that fractal to help a guildie. I do get rewards, because that game gives them to me, but my reward is spending time with friends in game.

I’ve run the Silverwastes with the guild, because I have fun spending time with my guild. I’m not really sure what you’re having trouble understanding here.

As I go along, I pick up stuff, I get gold, sometimes good drops. I did have a couple of VERY lucky drops along the way which really helped. One of them was a precusor. I sell a lot of stuff on the trading post. And I gather everything. You might consider that grinding, but I find it relaxing. Just running around gathering stuff at night while I can’t sleep, doing events, often in early zones.

For example I spent a lot of time in Diessa Plateau because I enjoy the zone. I like it. It’s fun for me even after a couple of years. And between iron and softwood there’s plenty of money to make just mining and gathering. If you consider that grind, well, I don’t.

In this thread you also said many of your guild-members did grind all the time.

So it seems you basically help them our grinding, only you don’t qualify it as grinding but helping out those guild-members? That makes it a little understandable. But trust me, if you avoid the grindy content because you dislike it, you will not make the gold by just playing to buy all those items.

So “Play the way you want” and earn the money along the way is just simply not how it works. In fact what I liked a lot was defending in WvW at some point I had to stop buying upgrades simply because I would run out of money. So that was not chancing items or whatever, just “playing the way I want” and that did not make me gold but it cost me gold. JP’s didn’t make me a lot of gold and so only guild-missions or the moment I did run with a group to take another keep did make me the money (And they while the group moved on to the next keep I stayed to build it up).

Now even when I did stop with buying those expensive upgrades the money I made was not close to enough to buy what I would like. (not to mention that still I would prefer the hunt).

Thats just the reality for most people. If you don’t like the grindy content (Like brainlessly running with some group doing the same thing over and over again) or doing dungeons every day then you will not make the money you need along the way.

Bad conclusion is bad. First of all, I don’t think I said many of my guildies grind, but surely some of them do. However, they don’t need help to grind. So if someone needs help with a dungeon and I help them, I’m not going to run that dungeon 12 times in a row.

And no one needs help running around the Silverwastes shovel train, or any train for that matter. If someone is grinding EoTM, they won’t be grinding it with me.

However people do need help sometimes with personal story chapters for which I get no reward at all, and I still help them.

No, I really am just playing. That’s all I’m doing. As much as you’d like to believe otherwise.

And you know, I tend to hang out with other guildies I play with regularly who don’t grind either. We just do what we feel like at a given time. There are more of us out there than you think.

^^ Ha, that’s a new one I haven’t heard .. “You’re not really playing, you’re grinding”.

Fundamentally, I think the difference is that whatever it is, people have the choice to do something they like and get rewarded for it. If people are playing and choosing to not like it, that is 100% their own fault.

Obtena.7952:

^^ Ha, that’s a new one I haven’t heard .. “You’re not really playing, you’re grinding”.

Fundamentally, I think the difference is that whatever it is, people have the choice to do something they like and get rewarded for it. If people are playing and choosing to not like it, that is 100% their own fault.

In order to be grinding you have to have some kind of goal in mind. While I have numerous long term goals in the back of my mind, that’s where they stay. When I’m playing I’m sort of like a skritt. Ooooo that looks fun. Shiny! I start doing one thing and by the end of an hour I’ve done ten other things, but not the thing I set out to do.

Devata.6589:

ding is fine. I think I already said that in the previous comment you reacted on.
What I said that was not a grind was something like quests and that is because there is one specific task (content) that rewards you one item and there is no need for repeating it.

Okay, that’s clearer that there’s no repetition. But it’s still . . . not avoiding “grind” even though you only have to do it once. I only have to grind to 99 once in a Final Fantasy game (or 9999 several times in a Disgaea game) but that doesn’t mean it’s not a grind because it’s eventually over.

All grinds eventually are over.

While there can be many reasons (depending on the person), The fact that it overall can have higher drop-rates

That’s so adorable to keep thinking with relation to RNG

Not that any of that matters. You say yourself that there is a higher tolerance for this, so people like it better. That alone should be more then enough reason to consider is a superior system and put it in and stop acting as if the current grind in this game is just fine.

No, I’m at this point wanting you to acknowledge you are talking about substituting grind for grind and calling it progress, when we started out wanting to see about removing the grind.

If I need to do one task for any reward I want, but can repeat it how much I want, or a hundred tasks for a hundred different items, but each task has a different item at the end . . . I don’t see that as “superior”. I see that as “really bad design”. Luckily, that’s the sort of thing which gets killed in development.

There is no repeating in that and repetition seems to be an elements everybody agrees on that needs to be in grind to name it grind? So that has nothing to do with semantic, if this was what you where referring to.

Once more, a grind can still be something which is not repeated. Most people want to agree it’s when you repeat something. It can also be when you have to do stuff you don’t want to do, to get the rewards. I may only have to level grind once in a single-player RPG, but it’s still a grind. I may have to grind only once for a 1% drop, but it’s still a grind.

I said people tolerate it because it’s common across many games and it’s just “part of the system” now. But that needs to be examined very . . . very . . . closely and see if it’s even necessary. Is it absolutely necessary to run a chain of connected quests for an item? This is something there are a lot of players who detest the idea of needing to jump through many hoops for their rewards instead of being able to get it another way.

Why more, at best it would be another type of grind to get the game item. (when we define those farms as a grind what is fine by me).

You’re not counting it right, is why. When you add parallel routes to something, you do not ignore all but one route when determining the amount of work which might need to be done. Why is this? Because (unless there’s a problem) everyone is going to be spreading out among the options rather than simply picking one and going along with it.

That adds numerous separate, parallel grinds to the game. You are, empirically, adding more grind to the game, but just allowing people to choose which grind they want. (And as I said before, if the Gold grind is allowed to remain, most people will stick with that due to versatility . . . if it is an option.)

It’s also a hefty workload for the designers, developers, and coders. I know people like to pretend that they can just belch out a finished product with no bugs because they’re paid to produce . . . but that’s just not how it goes. I’ll give you a proof if you want of just how much data goes into a “simple” arrangement like this.

“So, are we now saying that grind is okay, after trying to build a path around it?”
For me the grind is not oke. I dislike it a lot. (It however is for those deafening it one would think?) However in my suggestion I always left the way open for people to grind.

. . . I’m not talking about the current situation. I’m talking about your proposal where you suggested there need not be more than one alternative. Because, well, the message does come off: “One path of grind is insulting and needs to be changed, but once we have two options to choose to grind there doesn’t need to be any more change”.

For me there is no problem in having items locked behind content, but it’s something those liking the current gold grind system seem to have a problem with.

I don’t have personal problems with locking items behind content either. I do have problems when some of that is “okay” and some of it is “not okay” based on what seems like an arbitrary viewpoint.

Obtena.7952:

Bernie.8674:

People keep bringing up necessity, but necessity is irrelevant.

Without demonstrating a reward as a result of repeating content is a requirement to advance or access other parts of the game, it’s not a grind. It is in fact, that ‘requirement’ element is a critical part of the definition that Anet has used to target their desire to make the game not grindy.

A few things to note here.

- Looking for a gamer perspective. If you care for a ‘optional’ item and there is grind to get it you will dislike it just as much as you would dislike it when having to grind for content. And the other way around. If you don’t care for that content you personally don’t care for that grind. So how bad that grind is for the player depends on his personal preferred game-play, not if it locked out an optional item or content (what you then define as ‘required’). So from that perspective there is no difference.

- The game was promoted and advertised with creating the game with a no-grind-philosophy. That means it did try to get people who disliked grind, not specifying what grind. It was only last month that they suddenly said what grind they did try to prevent saying it was only some types.

- Just to get the record strait, also optional cosmetic grind is define by Anet as grind. It’s simply not a type a grind they now say they try to prevent with their no-grind-philosophy while also agreeing they could also reduce that grind.

In the end, what is most important about the grind discussion is that if people experience grind, that will likely be one of the biggest reasons to start disliking a game, making people feel bored by a game.

Grind might be a good way to keep people busy for a while when you would have a lack of content but eventually people will simply get burned out or bored by the game. Then you can make a beautiful world, come with a lot of great QoL improvements, have an ongoing story, be very innovative, fix huge issues like temporary content, have great animations, have a great movement system and have a lot of potential. (All things than you could apply to GW2).

When you end up with a game that many people consider boring (because of grind) people will not like is and walk away from the game. That is the main problem of the grind and is also why Anet should do something about it.

Devata.6589:

In the end, what is most important about the grind discussion is that if people experience grind, that will likely be one of the biggest reasons to start disliking a game, making people feel bored by a game.

Grind might be a good way to keep people busy for a while when you would have a lack of content but eventually people will simply get burned out or bored by the game. Then you can make a beautiful world, come with a lot of great QoL improvements, have an ongoing story, be very innovative, fix huge issues like temporary content, have great animations, have a great movement system and have a lot of potential. (All things than you could apply to GW2).

When you end up with a game that many people consider boring (because of grind) people will not like is and walk away from the game. That is the main problem of the grind and is also why Anet should do something about it.

Except for those people who claim to like to grind.

WindFall.1479:

I feel like this entire conversation would have been avoided if the dev team said it’s a different (and arguably better, but I’m not even going near that conversation) type of grind instead of saying there’s absolutely no grind at all. Although I admit it doesn’t have the same marketing “oomph” as opposed to saying there’s no grind.

In any case, there’s a general law about using absolutes: don’t use them.

It’s a little hard to say something is better when this grind is an option in almost all mmo’s. At least for most of the items.

You can grind for gold to buy what you want in almost all of them. The big difference is that in most you can also work directly towards most of the items. And that is not the case in GW2 where grinding the gold is the only option for most of them.

Devata.6589:

A few things to note here.

- Looking for a gamer perspective. If you care for a ‘optional’ item and there is grind to get it you will dislike it just as much as you would dislike it when having to grind for content.

That’s dependent on the player and it’s still their choice.

Devata.6589:

- The game was promoted and advertised with creating the game with a no-grind-philosophy.

… and it is according to Anet’s vision, if you decide to not grind for optional items

Devata.6589:

- Just to get the record strait, also optional cosmetic grind is define by Anet as grind.

Yes, they give you the option to grind or not. Player choice.

To be brutally honest here, people are simply not accepting responsibility for their choices. It’s not Anet’s job to ensure that people play correctly so they never grind. They simply provide the environment and they have made that environment so people can get things they want without disliking the game because of grinding … if they DECIDE to do so. People need to grow up a little.

The only valid point you bring to the discussion is a way to achieve rewards as a direct result of play instead of gold. Instead you bury your idea into why the game should haven’t grind, even though your idea is also, inherently grindy. Not smart.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

In the end, what is most important about the grind discussion is that if people experience grind, that will likely be one of the biggest reasons to start disliking a game, making people feel bored by a game.

Grind might be a good way to keep people busy for a while when you would have a lack of content but eventually people will simply get burned out or bored by the game. Then you can make a beautiful world, come with a lot of great QoL improvements, have an ongoing story, be very innovative, fix huge issues like temporary content, have great animations, have a great movement system and have a lot of potential. (All things than you could apply to GW2).

When you end up with a game that many people consider boring (because of grind) people will not like is and walk away from the game. That is the main problem of the grind and is also why Anet should do something about it.

Except for those people who claim to like to grind.

True, those will stay, they will have no problem with GW2. Luckily they would also not have a problem when you make the game so there is a direct (no or less grindy way) but also have the current grind way as an option.

The big question is how big is the other group and I think they are big enough for a game-company to want to have them as part of their player-base.

In fact I think it´s one of the biggest groups. You really think a game like WoW is popular because of all the people who like to do the highest level raids (that where the grind is in WoW)? I think that is only a very small group of the total player-base.

WindFall.1479:

Obtena.7952:

That would not have prevented the conversation because people don’t care what Anet has to say in the first place. They have convinced themselves there is grind. Somehow they think obtuse pedantry over definitions is a compelling argument for Anet to throw out their approach to the game and just ‘take the grind out of it’.

Arguing over pedantics. That’s what internet forums are for aren’t they? It’s like a group of guys arguing over which identical twin sister is hotter.

Only those defending the grind are arguing over pedantic. And this statement is a cheap way of trying to dismiss an ongoing discussion without any arguments or anything to add.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

In the end, what is most important about the grind discussion is that if people experience grind, that will likely be one of the biggest reasons to start disliking a game, making people feel bored by a game.

Grind might be a good way to keep people busy for a while when you would have a lack of content but eventually people will simply get burned out or bored by the game. Then you can make a beautiful world, come with a lot of great QoL improvements, have an ongoing story, be very innovative, fix huge issues like temporary content, have great animations, have a great movement system and have a lot of potential. (All things than you could apply to GW2).

When you end up with a game that many people consider boring (because of grind) people will not like is and walk away from the game. That is the main problem of the grind and is also why Anet should do something about it.

Except for those people who claim to like to grind.

True, those will stay, they will have no problem with GW2. Luckily they would also not have a problem when you make the game so there is a direct (no or less grindy way) but also have the current grind way as an option.

The big question is how big is the other group and I think they are big enough for a game-company to want to have them as part of their player-base.

In fact I think it´s one of the biggest groups. You really think a game like WoW is popular because of all the people who like to do the highest level raids (that where the grind is in WoW)? I think that is only a very small group of the total player-base.

This is faulty logic.

You make a logical leap here with no evidence.

I agree that hard core raiders make up a small percentage of WoW’s playerbase. But I don’t agree the reason is because they like to grind and no one else did.

In fact, my experience is the opposite. I know a lot of people who love to grind that don’t want hard content. They want to wander around the world and gather stuff, kill a bunch of creatures and have a good time. They like to grind.

My wife likes to grind. It relaxes her. She gets into a rhythm and just does what she has to, whatever it is. And though she has raided in other games, she didn’t raid to grind. The grind she likes it repetitive thoughtless stuff that lets her zone out and relax.

I can assure you she’s not alone.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

tfcgeneralkmk.9508:

Satenia.9025:

Vayne.8563:

~

~

~

~

In this thread you also said many of your guild-members did grind all the time.

So it seems you basically help them our grinding, only you don’t qualify it as grinding but helping out those guild-members? That makes it a little understandable. But trust me, if you avoid the grindy content because you dislike it, you will not make the gold by just playing to buy all those items.

So “Play the way you want” and earn the money along the way is just simply not how it works. In fact what I liked a lot was defending in WvW at some point I had to stop buying upgrades simply because I would run out of money. So that was not chancing items or whatever, just “playing the way I want” and that did not make me gold but it cost me gold. JP’s didn’t make me a lot of gold and so only guild-missions or the moment I did run with a group to take another keep did make me the money (And they while the group moved on to the next keep I stayed to build it up).

Now even when I did stop with buying those expensive upgrades the money I made was not close to enough to buy what I would like. (not to mention that still I would prefer the hunt).

Thats just the reality for most people. If you don’t like the grindy content (Like brainlessly running with some group doing the same thing over and over again) or doing dungeons every day then you will not make the money you need along the way.

Bad conclusion is bad. First of all, I don’t think I said many of my guildies grind, but surely some of them do. However, they don’t need help to grind. So if someone needs help with a dungeon and I help them, I’m not going to run that dungeon 12 times in a row.

And no one needs help running around the Silverwastes shovel train, or any train for that matter. If someone is grinding EoTM, they won’t be grinding it with me.

However people do need help sometimes with personal story chapters for which I get no reward at all, and I still help them.

No, I really am just playing. That’s all I’m doing. As much as you’d like to believe otherwise.

And you know, I tend to hang out with other guildies I play with regularly who don’t grind either. We just do what we feel like at a given time. There are more of us out there than you think.

“First of all, I don’t think I said many of my guildies grind” Pretty sure you did, in this thread or the previous one, about how you also did see many people in your guild grind and you tried to convince them to play the game different but it was simply how they played / human nature. (Something like that).

“However, they don’t need help to grind.” You even said you would run with them in fractals when they where leveling, isn’t that grinding?

“So if someone needs help with a dungeon and I help the, I’m not going to run that dungeon 12 times in a row.” No, but if many people are doing dungeons for a grind there will be many times they will be looking for people to fill in a empty spot. If I’m correct grinding dungeons is not even done by doing is multiple times in a row because it only rewards once a day?

“And no one needs help running around the Silverwastes shovel train, or any train for that matter. If someone is grinding EoTM, they won’t be grinding it with me.”

What you have said here pretty much go’s agains what you said before.

I’m in those zones because guildies are in those zones and I’m hanging out with them.

Vayne.8563:

It’s true that often people need a fifth for a dungeon, or need help leveling in fractals and sometimes, often even, I’m the person helping. But I’m running that dungeon or that fractal to help a guildie. I do get rewards, because that game gives them to me, but my reward is spending time with friends in game.

I’ve run the Silverwastes with the guild, because I have fun spending time with my guild.

“However people do need help sometimes with personal story chapters for which I get no reward at all, and I still help them.” Sure, I never said you would do nothing that would not reward you things. I simply suggested you do many activities with guild-members and than automatically means that if they do a lot of grindy content you will do the same. That is all.

I just don’t think most of us would accept a zero-grind situation, knowing that the rewards we want are there instantly without any “work”, even in a game. In the same way that most people over the age of 10 or so don’t go back and wax nostalgic over Candyland, I don’t think even in games that most people want the easy way to the majority of things even when doing leisure/non-work activities. The fun of the reward is far less when it’s too easily obtained.

Than said, almost anything in-game can be had through gems converted to gold, so if you really want to skip the grind and insist on having all the shinies, real life money can make that happen. There’s no pleasing everyone, and I guess that unlike a game like EvE that does nothing to give the illusion of attainment without time and grind, because this game has many more fun, casual elements, there’s more diversity in what people expect in terms of how rewards are gained.

With that said, is something really a reward when a player does nothing to get it? I think GW2 has a good balance. I’m currently working towards and armor set and weapon, but in the meantime I got a pretty freaking awesome skin via achievements while out and about tracking down what I need for crafting the and attaining the other items. Overall Anet does a good job of rewarding every type of play style, and with the exception of those who can’t be the bards they always dreamed of and gain experience by serenading other players and regaling us with tales, I think as many possible methods of attainment as are realistic are at hand to be enjoyed.

If the enjoyment becomes lost, it’s probably time to take a break and enjoy the sun for a while.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

~

You are not doing 99 or 9999 ones. You are doing 1 task to get 1 reward in example of a quest.

“That’s so adorable to keep thinking with relation to RNG” As your hole reaction to me was only based on the RNG part of it.

“I’m at this point wanting you to acknowledge you are talking about substituting grind for grind ” But I’m not. At best there are parts of my suggestions (the rng part) that are smaller farms that some people still might consider grind.

“. I don’t see that as “superior”.” So making something more people like (or tolerate) is not superior to something less people tolerance according to you. That is fine, but then you seem to have a strange definition of superior I would think.

“Once more, a grind can still be something which is not repeated. Most people want to agree it’s when you repeat something. It can also be when you have to do stuff you don’t want to do, to get the rewards.” Not only do you have you own very different and strange definition for superior, this also seems to be the case for grind. Once more, while grind is personal for many people pretty much every body agrees it involves repetition.
When you are pretty much designing your own language it’s not really possible to have a discussion with you.

“I may only have to level grind once in a single-player RPG, but it’s still a grind.” Grinding is the way you achieve something (how do you get that 1 level) now what you achieve (that 1 level, or that 1 item). Again you seem to be using a strange language or applying incorrect ‘logic’.

“When you add parallel routes to something, you do not ignore all but one route when determining the amount of work which might need to be done.”
Woow, in this comment you only come up with strange definitions and wrong ‘logic’. So when you want to drive from A or B, in order to calculate the distance you count up all possible routes. That is what you are saying here.

“That adds numerous separate, parallel grinds to the game.” But there would not be any more grind going on. While again, what I suggest I do not see as grind, you do. So even this depends on how people personally would define grind.

“(And as I said before, if the Gold grind is allowed to remain, most people will stick with that due to versatility . . . if it is an option.) ” I think that is false but it’s a number we both don’t have.

“It’s also a hefty workload for the designers” Sure, having specific content is more work then not having it. Then again, much of the content already exist / gets build anyway and the reward could simply be added to it. When making a new area you could reduce the number of events and add some quest for them for example. They are building much of the content anyway.

“ I’m not talking about the current situation. I’m talking about your proposal ” And my suggestion always allowed for the current way (grinding gold) to also be there as an alternative for the direct way. This by suggestion a direct way to work towards items but it being fine of those items where not account-bound so the people who would prefer the grind could still do that. So you them missed a part of my proposal I guess.

“ to choose to grind there doesn’t need to be any more change ” Except that what you now define as second grind is in many cases not a grind or at the least a best a smaller farm vs the big gold grind in this game. Well like we did see previous in this comment, you see any task you don’t like as grind so by that logic I guess you are right. It just has nothing to do with reality anymore.

Obtena.7952:

Devata.6589:

A few things to note here.

- Looking for a gamer perspective. If you care for a ‘optional’ item and there is grind to get it you will dislike it just as much as you would dislike it when having to grind for content.

That’s dependent on the player and it’s still their choice.

Devata.6589:

- The game was promoted and advertised with creating the game with a no-grind-philosophy.

… and it is according to Anet’s vision, if you decide to not grind for optional items

Devata.6589:

- Just to get the record strait, also optional cosmetic grind is define by Anet as grind.

Yes, they give you the option to grind or not. Player choice.

To be brutally honest here, people are simply not accepting responsibility for their choices. It’s not Anet’s job to ensure that people play correctly so they never grind. They simply provide the environment and they have made that environment so people can get things they want without disliking the game because of grinding … if they DECIDE to do so. People need to grow up a little.

The only valid point you bring to the discussion is a way to achieve rewards as a direct result of play instead of gold. Instead you bury your idea into why the game should haven’t grind, even though your idea is also, inherently grindy. Not smart.

“That’s dependent on the player and it’s still their choice. "
Thats what I say. But then we could ignore any grind including the one you talk about being ‘necessary’ grind because even that is choice.

" and it is according to Anet’s vision, if you decide to not grind for optional items"
Not when they where promoting that. This statement came 2,5 years after release. My point was that they at that moment (not 2,5 years later) attracted people who dislike grind.. any grind.

“Anet’s job to ensure that people play correctly so they never grind. They simply provide the environment and they have made that environment so people can get things they want without disliking the game because of grinding”

“Yes, they give you the option to grind or not. Player choice.” To get the item they only give the option to grind.

“people are simply not accepting responsibility for their choices. It’s not Anet’s job to ensure that people play correctly so they never grind. They simply provide the environment and they have made that environment so people can get things they want without disliking the game because of grinding”
Then they failed at that. When making the same choices and playing the same way in other games I did not feel any grind, I could work directly towards items without this big gold-grind for everything in the way.

So it’s strange to say grind is the peoples fault if they can do exactly the same (well, working towards an item) but then without the grind in another game but only have the grind option in GW2.

“The only valid point you bring to the discussion is a way to achieve rewards as a direct result of play instead of gold. Instead you bury your idea into why the game should haven’t grind, even though your idea is also, inherently grindy. Not smart.”

I did not say it shouldn’t have any grind, if people like to grind thats fine by me. As long as there is also a less or not grindy way to achive your goals. Also it’s the never ending gold grind and not having a direct way to get an item that is making the grind. The two are related. Sure I could also create a thread not talking about grind and simply suggest for a direct way but I simply joined a discussion about grind and continued it with this thread when the other one got closed. Also the direct way does not have to be grind or for parts at least can be less grindy then the big gold / currency grind.

But maybe at one point I will make a thread where I simply suggest for direct ways to get items.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

In the end, what is most important about the grind discussion is that if people experience grind, that will likely be one of the biggest reasons to start disliking a game, making people feel bored by a game.

Grind might be a good way to keep people busy for a while when you would have a lack of content but eventually people will simply get burned out or bored by the game. Then you can make a beautiful world, come with a lot of great QoL improvements, have an ongoing story, be very innovative, fix huge issues like temporary content, have great animations, have a great movement system and have a lot of potential. (All things than you could apply to GW2).

When you end up with a game that many people consider boring (because of grind) people will not like is and walk away from the game. That is the main problem of the grind and is also why Anet should do something about it.

Except for those people who claim to like to grind.

True, those will stay, they will have no problem with GW2. Luckily they would also not have a problem when you make the game so there is a direct (no or less grindy way) but also have the current grind way as an option.

The big question is how big is the other group and I think they are big enough for a game-company to want to have them as part of their player-base.

In fact I think it´s one of the biggest groups. You really think a game like WoW is popular because of all the people who like to do the highest level raids (that where the grind is in WoW)? I think that is only a very small group of the total player-base.

This is faulty logic.

You make a logical leap here with no evidence.

I agree that hard core raiders make up a small percentage of WoW’s playerbase. But I don’t agree the reason is because they like to grind and no one else did.

In fact, my experience is the opposite. I know a lot of people who love to grind that don’t want hard content. They want to wander around the world and gather stuff, kill a bunch of creatures and have a good time. They like to grind.

My wife likes to grind. It relaxes her. She gets into a rhythm and just does what she has to, whatever it is. And though she has raided in other games, she didn’t raid to grind. The grind she likes it repetitive thoughtless stuff that lets her zone out and relax.

I can assure you she’s not alone.

I just said that those high level raids is what is considered the grind in that game. It’s true there are also other people grinding in WoW but your missing the point that a lot of people are there and playing the game without grinding. It’s not so much false logic as it was leaving out parts that seemed irrelevant. Anyway, yes there are more people grinding then only those doing those raids but the point was and stays that many people play who do not do it to grind. And no, it;s again something we do not have numbers for.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

In the end, what is most important about the grind discussion is that if people experience grind, that will likely be one of the biggest reasons to start disliking a game, making people feel bored by a game.

Grind might be a good way to keep people busy for a while when you would have a lack of content but eventually people will simply get burned out or bored by the game. Then you can make a beautiful world, come with a lot of great QoL improvements, have an ongoing story, be very innovative, fix huge issues like temporary content, have great animations, have a great movement system and have a lot of potential. (All things than you could apply to GW2).

When you end up with a game that many people consider boring (because of grind) people will not like is and walk away from the game. That is the main problem of the grind and is also why Anet should do something about it.

Except for those people who claim to like to grind.

True, those will stay, they will have no problem with GW2. Luckily they would also not have a problem when you make the game so there is a direct (no or less grindy way) but also have the current grind way as an option.

The big question is how big is the other group and I think they are big enough for a game-company to want to have them as part of their player-base.

In fact I think it´s one of the biggest groups. You really think a game like WoW is popular because of all the people who like to do the highest level raids (that where the grind is in WoW)? I think that is only a very small group of the total player-base.

This is faulty logic.

You make a logical leap here with no evidence.

I agree that hard core raiders make up a small percentage of WoW’s playerbase. But I don’t agree the reason is because they like to grind and no one else did.

In fact, my experience is the opposite. I know a lot of people who love to grind that don’t want hard content. They want to wander around the world and gather stuff, kill a bunch of creatures and have a good time. They like to grind.

My wife likes to grind. It relaxes her. She gets into a rhythm and just does what she has to, whatever it is. And though she has raided in other games, she didn’t raid to grind. The grind she likes it repetitive thoughtless stuff that lets her zone out and relax.

I can assure you she’s not alone.

I just said that those high level raids is what is considered the grind in that game. It’s true there are also other people grinding in WoW but your missing the point that a lot of people are there and playing the game without grinding. It’s not so much false logic as it was leaving out parts that seemed irrelevant. Anyway, yes there are more people grinding then only those doing those raids but the point was and stays that many people play who do not do it to grind. And no, it;s again something we do not have numbers for.

Right, we don’t know how many people grind or don’t grind. No one knows. So the whole argument that a lot of people are or aren’t going to leave because of grind or perceived grind (the same thing for all practical purposes), nor do we know how many people might leave if things were changed the way you want them. We don’t know. There’s no way to know.

You have a theory that what you want will be better. My theory is that there’s never going to be a good balance, because no matter what you do, a percentage of the fan base will be dissatisfied. It’s always a lose/lose situation.

Devata.6589:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

~

You are not doing 99 or 9999 ones. You are doing 1 task to get 1 reward in example of a quest.

And we have that now, with needing to finish the Clock Tower to get acknowledgement or rewards for finishing the Clock Tower. Or getting “All Seeing (Exotic)” from the Temple of Lyssa assault final chest. You know that’s where you need to go to get that reward, that’s the task you need to do.

It’s still a grind, either way.

“That’s so adorable to keep thinking with relation to RNG” As your hole reaction to me was only based on the RNG part of it.

RNG is random. I seem to recall hearing someone had collected data and roughly 25-33% is the drop rate of a Carapace Coat Box. Yet a lot of people haven’t gotten all of theirs yet.

By the way, the Silverwastes and Bandit Crests for Carapace boxes? Seem to be about what you’re suggesting more of.

“I’m at this point wanting you to acknowledge you are talking about substituting grind for grind ” But I’m not. At best there are parts of my suggestions (the rng part) that are smaller farms that some people still might consider grind.

Some people considering it grind means there’s still grind. We did cover this, at length, last time around.

“. I don’t see that as “superior”.” So making something more people like (or tolerate) is not superior to something less people tolerance according to you. That is fine, but then you seem to have a strange definition of superior I would think.

That’s because you’re only paying attention to a narrow band of focus, the end result. You are not seeing:

- The amount of work which must go into designing this.
- The amount of work which must go into developing this.
- The amount of work which must go into coding this.
- The number of places where a single bug can sink acquisition of one of these items. (e.g. “Sam”)
- Why people might consider it a step backwards to add redundant grind paths.

Not only do you have you own very different and strange definition for superior, this also seems to be the case for grind. Once more, while grind is personal for many people pretty much every body agrees it involves repetition.

Sigh. Allow me to break it down:

True or false. Leveling a character in a single-person RPG to the maximum threshold is grind. (Repetition being “find the enemies with the best time/gain ratio and murder them like dumping boiling water on an anthill”.)

True or false. You only need to do this once because those levels do not reset.

When you are pretty much designing your own language it’s not really possible to have a discussion with you.

When you’re not bothering to think through your ideas before lazily calling them “better”, then what’s the point in discussing anything in the first place?

“I may only have to level grind once in a single-player RPG, but it’s still a grind.” Grinding is the way you achieve something (how do you get that 1 level) now what you achieve (that 1 level, or that 1 item).

. . . um, that is what I’m talking about. Grinding. Repetition. The way I achieve something is to sit there and kill X hundred enemies until I level, then kill X+Y hundred enemies until that happens again.

Woow, in this comment you only come up with strange definitions and wrong ‘logic’. So when you want to drive from A or B, in order to calculate the distance you count up all possible routes. That is what you are saying here.

I love it when people try to stuff words in my mouth.

No. What I’m saying is just because you want to go from Point A to Point B, the other routes you choose don’t cease to exist just because you choose one of them. Those roads still exist, they still require maintenance, there are still other people who are using them . . . sometimes for other reasons than to get to Point B.

Also bear in mind the shortest distance path isn’t always the shortest time path, nor is a longer distance path preferable just because it has the shortest travel time. To use the same metaphor, of course. The shortest distance path currently (and continuing in your design) being “Gold Grind”.

“That adds numerous separate, parallel grinds to the game.” But there would not be any more grind going on. While again, what I suggest I do not see as grind, you do. So even this depends on how people personally would define grind.

And you spent the last few bits telling me my definition of grind was “strange” or wrong. So, explain to me why you now get to turn around and say that as an example?

Oh, by the way . . . “that adds numerous parallel grinds to the game” followed but “but there would not be any more grind going on” . . . is the height so far of you not paying attention to what you’re saying.

1/2

Then again, much of the content already exist / gets build anyway and the reward could simply be added to it.

Heh.

“ to choose to grind there doesn’t need to be any more change ” Except that what you now define as second grind is in many cases not a grind or at the least a best a smaller farm vs the big gold grind in this game. Well like we did see previous in this comment, you see any task you don’t like as grind so by that logic I guess you are right. It just has nothing to do with reality anymore.

Stop chopping parts off my text to argue against like they’re all that I said.

“One path of grind is insulting and needs to be changed, but once we have two options to choose to grind there doesn’t need to be any more change”.

. . . which is how it came off, several times, when I mentioned there might be someone who objects to a new direct way and the gold grind. Which we all agreed on at some point was a grind which people would like to go around. But if the option for the direct way isn’t appealing, and the gold value is still beyond what they feel is okay to grind for . . .

You . . . suggested . . . that wasn’t a problem in your design. And while you snipe at me about not discussing reality, we’re really not discussing reality. We are discussing a theoretical future. The difference is, I’m pointing out there are problems with your design and so far your response has been “is not a problem, working as intended”. With a fair amount of inferring me to be delusional.

So, I don’t know if you’re not in tune with what’s being said (I’m starting to doubt it), or if this thread is here only to let you stand on a podium and declare yourself the one and only person who can solve the problem. It’s starting to look like the latter, more and more.

I’m going to speak up one final time. And I will be as clear as I can.

Your proposition is interesting, on a root level. It looks like it has potential to actually do some good work making the world have some variety. There are still problems and pitfalls with it which you must acknowledge in order to improve on it. One of these is how other players are going to react, and how your system is bound to produce someone . . . exactly like yourself. Someone who does not like the then-current system, sees it as broken and needing to be fixed. It also holds the potential to turn away more people than it keeps if done badly, due to the nature of the system.

Then there’s the (legitimate) issue of the technical challenge here. Every alternate path of acquisition has numerous chances of technical failure. We’ve already seen several instances of where a failure creates a price point for an item on the Gold Grind which is far outside the intentional target – Final Rest and Sam. Both of these had/have legitimate technical issues which prevented them from entering the game at the rate intended. Therefore the price of them rose . . . and these are items for which there is (in fact) two acquisition paths: buy it off the Black Lion or farm/grind the events which reward them. There is very little reason to believe a third path would be impervious to having bugs, short of “insert Paypal, get item”. Something neither of us approve of.

In any case, there it is. I like your idea, but you really need to now take a step back from creating it . . . and now it’s time to figure out how to destroy it. You need to break that kitty until it screams for mama. You need to do your level best to figure out every exploitable shortcut and fill them with cement. You need to run down every result which is not what you intended, and stop them like they owe you money.

Most importantly, you need to listen. Because someone told you your tabby-kitty is broken and your first response cannot be “no, you’re wrong” just out of hand. That’s not how the process works. I know, I’ve been through it.

I’ve played some grindy games in my day… And i have to say guild wars 2 isn’t a grindy game, not by far.
BUT there are some things that make little sense, specially in the ascended and legendary crafting.
Good example is Damascus/ Silk Weaving thread.
Mthrilium uses 50 Mithril Ingots(quite common and easy to get, you just mine it and it will salvage from heavy armor and many weapons);
Elder Spirit Residue 50 Elder wood planks (also easy to obtain)
Thick Elonian Cord uses 50 Cured Thick Leather squares(Not as easy to obtain, but still the most common of all T5 Mats).
Silk Weaving thread uses 100 Silk (which is only obtained by salvaging light armor, being the most expensive of all T5 mats) and you need Damasucs for ALL armor types, ALL. Which only makes it more expensive and necessary.
If that’s not creating unnecessary grind, i don’t know what is.
There’s a few more examples of inconsistencies with the “no-Grind” Phylosophy but, to me, that’s the most glaring of all.

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

In the end, what is most important about the grind discussion is that if people experience grind, that will likely be one of the biggest reasons to start disliking a game, making people feel bored by a game.

Grind might be a good way to keep people busy for a while when you would have a lack of content but eventually people will simply get burned out or bored by the game. Then you can make a beautiful world, come with a lot of great QoL improvements, have an ongoing story, be very innovative, fix huge issues like temporary content, have great animations, have a great movement system and have a lot of potential. (All things than you could apply to GW2).

When you end up with a game that many people consider boring (because of grind) people will not like is and walk away from the game. That is the main problem of the grind and is also why Anet should do something about it.

Except for those people who claim to like to grind.

True, those will stay, they will have no problem with GW2. Luckily they would also not have a problem when you make the game so there is a direct (no or less grindy way) but also have the current grind way as an option.

The big question is how big is the other group and I think they are big enough for a game-company to want to have them as part of their player-base.

In fact I think it´s one of the biggest groups. You really think a game like WoW is popular because of all the people who like to do the highest level raids (that where the grind is in WoW)? I think that is only a very small group of the total player-base.

This is faulty logic.

You make a logical leap here with no evidence.

I agree that hard core raiders make up a small percentage of WoW’s playerbase. But I don’t agree the reason is because they like to grind and no one else did.

In fact, my experience is the opposite. I know a lot of people who love to grind that don’t want hard content. They want to wander around the world and gather stuff, kill a bunch of creatures and have a good time. They like to grind.

My wife likes to grind. It relaxes her. She gets into a rhythm and just does what she has to, whatever it is. And though she has raided in other games, she didn’t raid to grind. The grind she likes it repetitive thoughtless stuff that lets her zone out and relax.

I can assure you she’s not alone.

I just said that those high level raids is what is considered the grind in that game. It’s true there are also other people grinding in WoW but your missing the point that a lot of people are there and playing the game without grinding. It’s not so much false logic as it was leaving out parts that seemed irrelevant. Anyway, yes there are more people grinding then only those doing those raids but the point was and stays that many people play who do not do it to grind. And no, it;s again something we do not have numbers for.

Right, we don’t know how many people grind or don’t grind. No one knows. So the whole argument that a lot of people are or aren’t going to leave because of grind or perceived grind (the same thing for all practical purposes), nor do we know how many people might leave if things were changed the way you want them. We don’t know. There’s no way to know.

You have a theory that what you want will be better. My theory is that there’s never going to be a good balance, because no matter what you do, a percentage of the fan base will be dissatisfied. It’s always a lose/lose situation.

Also without having exact numbers it’s just common sense to understand it’s a big group who dislikes grind. My suggestion do not change anything for the people who already like the game so not much reason for them to leave, but it will likely be a change that might hold people who dislike the grind in GW2. So it would a win / win situation. Don’t be so negative

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

~

“And we have that now ” With some things yes, for the most of the items no.

The clock-tower had a one item that dropped once. I don’t think anybody said getting that item was a grind. Maybe you could grind the tower for candy corn but that is the in line with the currency grind (and candy corn was the Halloween currency) and has not much to do with my suggestion.

Now the farm part that I suggest (that you consider still a grind) we did see in the MC dungeon. One of the most popular dungeons in the game.. until they added it in fractals and without the reward. Maybe that should give you a clue.

“You are not seeing:
- The amount of work which must go into designing this.
- The amount of work which must go into developing this.
- The amount of work which must go into coding this.
- The number of places where a single bug can sink acquisition of one of these items. (e.g. “Sam”)
- Why people might consider it a step backwards to add redundant grind paths.
”
I am a software engineer. Yes I see them, I also know that placing an item (you already have) behind existing content / content you do build anyway, is not a very work intensive task or a task prone to bugs. In fact, it can be as simple as filling one additional record of data in your database when the design of you software is good.

“When you’re not bothering to think through your ideas before lazily calling them” I did think through them.. and it are not even so much my idea’s it is my suggestion for this game, they are being implemented in many other games.. very successfully.

“ “that adds numerous parallel grinds to the game” followed but “but there would not be any more grind going on” . . . is the height so far of you not paying attention to what you’re saying.”

I really love this statement. Especially the conclusion in correlation with the text. According to you I do not pay attention to what I say because, and then you quote me, I say “that adds numerous parallel grinds to the game” followed by “but there would not be any more grind going on”

The only very little, extremely small problem is that I did not say that, I only quoted somebody else saying that. You.. you said that. So if anybody is not paying attention to what he is saying himself well then that is you, and you proof it in the sentence where you try to imply that of me.

Really there is no point in further debating this with you. It’s not about the problem, it’s not about the grind, it’s not even semantics, it’s really a debate about nothing at this point. It’s like having a debate with somebody and you say something is true and then he says it false but at some then it turns out he defines false as true and true as false. You can’t debate like that.

When you have anything to say that adds to this discussion or something that would help the people that feel the game to be grindy and something that would help to hold the people that will return for HoT but did leave before because they considered the game to be boring because of it grind. Then I would love to hear it. But I won’t continue this debate about nothing.

Beldin.5498:

Ashen.2907:

All grind of any sort in any game is optional. I guess the OP’s point is that he would like a discussion about how to reduce grind and increase fun rather than a focus on whether or not one person’s optional grind is acceptible while another’s is not.

Not if we talk about the chance to see all content in a game.

In a game like Lineage 2 (original version) the grind to get to max level was in no
way optional. In all raid-centric MMOs the grind is also not optional if you want
to see all raid zones.

Getting to max level is optional.
Raiding is optional.
Getting Ascended gear is optional.

and so on.

Every bit of grind in every game is optional. This is no more true in GW2 than in other games. All goals and progression are optional, but game companies need us to want these optional things. They actively seek to make these optional things desirable so that we will pursue them and so spend more time in the game either paying directly for play time or being exposed to the temptations of micro-transactions.

Devata.6589:

But I won’t continue this debate about nothing.

You started the debate about nothing, neighbor.

And you also missed the last third – where I outlined I agree your idea has a valid start to it. I like the concept as a whole. But it needs refinement, and it needs to be looked at. It needs to be studied from other angles and points. Since you are a software engineer, you know this. I know you do.

More work needs to be done examining, at the first, the basis of your design and then working up from there. If you don’t want that, then it’ll be just as poorly constructed as the Trait revamp and NPE turned out. Poorly executed interesting ideas.

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

In the end, what is most important about the grind discussion is that if people experience grind, that will likely be one of the biggest reasons to start disliking a game, making people feel bored by a game.

Grind might be a good way to keep people busy for a while when you would have a lack of content but eventually people will simply get burned out or bored by the game. Then you can make a beautiful world, come with a lot of great QoL improvements, have an ongoing story, be very innovative, fix huge issues like temporary content, have great animations, have a great movement system and have a lot of potential. (All things than you could apply to GW2).

When you end up with a game that many people consider boring (because of grind) people will not like is and walk away from the game. That is the main problem of the grind and is also why Anet should do something about it.

Except for those people who claim to like to grind.

True, those will stay, they will have no problem with GW2. Luckily they would also not have a problem when you make the game so there is a direct (no or less grindy way) but also have the current grind way as an option.

The big question is how big is the other group and I think they are big enough for a game-company to want to have them as part of their player-base.

In fact I think it´s one of the biggest groups. You really think a game like WoW is popular because of all the people who like to do the highest level raids (that where the grind is in WoW)? I think that is only a very small group of the total player-base.

This is faulty logic.

You make a logical leap here with no evidence.

I agree that hard core raiders make up a small percentage of WoW’s playerbase. But I don’t agree the reason is because they like to grind and no one else did.

In fact, my experience is the opposite. I know a lot of people who love to grind that don’t want hard content. They want to wander around the world and gather stuff, kill a bunch of creatures and have a good time. They like to grind.

My wife likes to grind. It relaxes her. She gets into a rhythm and just does what she has to, whatever it is. And though she has raided in other games, she didn’t raid to grind. The grind she likes it repetitive thoughtless stuff that lets her zone out and relax.

I can assure you she’s not alone.

I just said that those high level raids is what is considered the grind in that game. It’s true there are also other people grinding in WoW but your missing the point that a lot of people are there and playing the game without grinding. It’s not so much false logic as it was leaving out parts that seemed irrelevant. Anyway, yes there are more people grinding then only those doing those raids but the point was and stays that many people play who do not do it to grind. And no, it;s again something we do not have numbers for.

Right, we don’t know how many people grind or don’t grind. No one knows. So the whole argument that a lot of people are or aren’t going to leave because of grind or perceived grind (the same thing for all practical purposes), nor do we know how many people might leave if things were changed the way you want them. We don’t know. There’s no way to know.

You have a theory that what you want will be better. My theory is that there’s never going to be a good balance, because no matter what you do, a percentage of the fan base will be dissatisfied. It’s always a lose/lose situation.

Also without having exact numbers it’s just common sense to understand it’s a big group who dislikes grind. My suggestion do not change anything for the people who already like the game so not much reason for them to leave, but it will likely be a change that might hold people who dislike the grind in GW2. So it would a win / win situation. Don’t be so negative

Ah the old common sense argument. Given the number of games that attract people sololy on grind (candy corn crush, farmville), I’d say there’s more chance people stay with a game with grind in it than a game without it. That’s common sense to me.

Unfortunately your common sense tells you I like this so there must be enough people like me. That’s not really common sense. It’s just human nature to think that way.

I know that I’m not a typical gamer and most players aren’t like me. But a large group? How large?

Basically I think that if they made the game you wanted, the way you wanted it, there’d be less players long term. I can’t prove it, but that’s what I believe.

Vayne.8563:

Ah the old common sense argument. Given the number of games that attract people sololy on grind (candy corn crush, farmville), I’d say there’s more chance people stay with a game with grind in it than a game without it. That’s common sense to me.

Unfortunately your common sense tells you I like this so there must be enough people like me. That’s not really common sense. It’s just human nature to think that way.

I know that I’m not a typical gamer and most players aren’t like me. But a large group? How large?

Basically I think that if they made the game you wanted, the way you wanted it, there’d be less players long term. I can’t prove it, but that’s what I believe.

candy crush isnt grindy, it has unique levels, you are playing each level just to play that level. It works by making you feel good for beating something. There is no grind at all in candy corn, no rewards, its actually the opposite of grindy. Its whole entire reward system is based on the rewarding feeling you get for beating a level.

Its basically works by giving people challenging content and lets them work their way up as far as they can go.

perhaps the key to getting rid of grind may lie in looking at candy crush. They created a viable, profitable, addicting game that has made tons of money, and has zero grind.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Devata.6589:

But I won’t continue this debate about nothing.

You started the debate about nothing, neighbor.

And you also missed the last third – where I outlined I agree your idea has a valid start to it. I like the concept as a whole. But it needs refinement, and it needs to be looked at. It needs to be studied from other angles and points. Since you are a software engineer, you know this. I know you do.

More work needs to be done examining, at the first, the basis of your design and then working up from there. If you don’t want that, then it’ll be just as poorly constructed as the Trait revamp and NPE turned out. Poorly executed interesting ideas.

“But it needs refinement, and it needs to be looked at. ~ More work needs to be done examining” Sure, but the forum is not the place for that.

Here we simply make a suggestion. I suggested that there should be direct ways to work towards the items to decrease the grind and gave some examples of that, I even went as far as how to finance it as the suggestion would undermine the cash-shop focus. Other people came with some other idea’s, some more detailed, some less.

Those things combined should be enough for Anet to ask them-self the question if they do see this problem and so if they want to fix it, if they like the idea’s and how they could exactly implement it (That is the phase you talk about).

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

Vayne.8563:

Devata.6589:

~

~

~

~

I just said that those high level raids is what is considered the grind in that game. It’s true there are also other people grinding in WoW but your missing the point that a lot of people are there and playing the game without grinding. It’s not so much false logic as it was leaving out parts that seemed irrelevant. Anyway, yes there are more people grinding then only those doing those raids but the point was and stays that many people play who do not do it to grind. And no, it;s again something we do not have numbers for.

Right, we don’t know how many people grind or don’t grind. No one knows. So the whole argument that a lot of people are or aren’t going to leave because of grind or perceived grind (the same thing for all practical purposes), nor do we know how many people might leave if things were changed the way you want them. We don’t know. There’s no way to know.

You have a theory that what you want will be better. My theory is that there’s never going to be a good balance, because no matter what you do, a percentage of the fan base will be dissatisfied. It’s always a lose/lose situation.

Also without having exact numbers it’s just common sense to understand it’s a big group who dislikes grind. My suggestion do not change anything for the people who already like the game so not much reason for them to leave, but it will likely be a change that might hold people who dislike the grind in GW2. So it would a win / win situation. Don’t be so negative

Ah the old common sense argument. Given the number of games that attract people sololy on grind (candy corn crush, farmville), I’d say there’s more chance people stay with a game with grind in it than a game without it. That’s common sense to me.

Unfortunately your common sense tells you I like this so there must be enough people like me. That’s not really common sense. It’s just human nature to think that way.

I know that I’m not a typical gamer and most players aren’t like me. But a large group? How large?

Basically I think that if they made the game you wanted, the way you wanted it, there’d be less players long term. I can’t prove it, but that’s what I believe.

“Ah the old common sense argument.” Yeah because you try to almost everything in every discussion with “you don’t have the exact numbers”. Well in that way you could indeed dismiss everything, (whatever side you are on) but fact is that there is something like common sense. Can you remember the temporary content discussion? There you where also using that argument.

The people on the forum complaining where just a vocal minority, the people in the games complaining where also just a few, you didn’t hear any complains in your guild and we all did not have exact numbers. While using common sense everybody new there where many people who disliked that. Also Anet eventually did see that and changed it. So you telling that we don’t have a exact number does not add anything to the discussion, especially when you ignore common sense. So maybe this would then be a good time for you to stop doing that.

“Given the number of games that attract people sololy on grind (candy corn crush, farmville), I’d say there’s more chance people stay with a game with grind in it than a game without it. ” Not that you can compare those games to GW2 (Besides I did never play them so can’t say much about how grindy they are), did any of those games get promoted with some no-grind-philosophy? I do not think so. So yes, it’s common sense that if you promote a game with a no-grind-philosophy (something you don’t explain any further then that, until 2,5 years somewhere in a forum) that game attacks many people who dislike grinding.

“Basically I think that if they made the game you wanted, the way you wanted it, there’d be less players long term. I can’t prove it, but that’s what I believe.” So adding the ability to work directly towards the item (taking the same amount of time, allowing for the those who like to grind to do that as well) would scare away people. Strange, but if you believe so.

@Devata

And yet I still liked Season 1 of the Living Story much more than I like Season 2 and I’d have preferred to remain with the temporary content. With an ever changing world that moves forward. With something to look forward to that’s different.

That was taken away with the removal of the Living Story Season 1. I still maintain that that was better and I’m surely not the only person who thinks Season 1 was more fun. Others have posted the same.

Anet has apparently decided that more people wanted repeatable permanent content over temporary ever changing content, and I’ve had to accept that that was their decision because I’m not the only one playing the game. If enough of the game changes to where I don’t like it, I’ll leave.

The point is, the game is successful as it is now and there’s no real guarantee the changes suggested will make it more successful, even if you’d like it better. Again, it is my belief that changes to the game made where I have to do specific content over and over to get stuff (like Silverwastes) will make the game less enjoyable FOR ME.

I assume that it’ll make the game more enjoyable for you. I like the freedom of pretty much playing where I want to get stuff and I dislike having to play specific content to get specific rewards.

To each their own, I suppose, but at the end of the day, Anet is going to go where they feel the numbers are. In the case of temporary content, they made that decision. If they feel your suggestions have value I’m sure they’ll take them on board. But it probably won’t make the game better for me.

Vayne.8563:

@Devata

And yet I still liked Season 1 of the Living Story much more than I like Season 2 and I’d have preferred to remain with the temporary content. With an ever changing world that moves forward. With something to look forward to that’s different.

That was taken away with the removal of the Living Story Season 1. I still maintain that that was better and I’m surely not the only person who thinks Season 1 was more fun. Others have posted the same.

Anet has apparently decided that more people wanted repeatable permanent content over temporary ever changing content, and I’ve had to accept that that was their decision because I’m not the only one playing the game. If enough of the game changes to where I don’t like it, I’ll leave.

The point is, the game is successful as it is now and there’s no real guarantee the changes suggested will make it more successful, even if you’d like it better. Again, it is my belief that changes to the game made where I have to do specific content over and over to get stuff (like Silverwastes) will make the game less enjoyable FOR ME.

I assume that it’ll make the game more enjoyable for you. I like the freedom of pretty much playing where I want to get stuff and I dislike having to play specific content to get specific rewards.

To each their own, I suppose, but at the end of the day, Anet is going to go where they feel the numbers are. In the case of temporary content, they made that decision. If they feel your suggestions have value I’m sure they’ll take them on board. But it probably won’t make the game better for me.

“The point is, the game is successful as it is " The point is, that the game has been getting less and less income since release (Something that the LS approach was supposed to prevent in the first place. An approach many people including me said would not work (turns out they were right)).

The HoT expansion will for sure increase the income and number of players but if they then start dropping again the same way as before the game will have a problem.

The big question is why numbers drop. I think that’s because people get bored by the game because of a number of things, but the grind / reward system being one of the bigger reasons for that. And how the system works I blame to the cash-shop focus what is the reason why these things is what I talk so much about. (to much disliking to some people on the forum)

Now other people might see other reasons for the drop but the fact is that Anet will have to do something about that. That is best for Anet and for all players including you.

“I like the freedom of pretty much playing where I want to get stuff and I dislike having to play specific content to get specific rewards. " Luckily then that I left room for that in my suggestion.

It’s only grind if you make it a grind. Finished my full light ascended armor only recently…took me about a year (or when did anet introduce ascended armor crafting?). I gathered all materials by playing “the way I want”…it took me quite a while, but no reason to rush anything. You don’t loose track in GW2 if you’re not constantly playing like in most other MMOs.

Devata.6589:

The big question is why numbers drop. I think that’s because people get bored by the game because of a number of things, but the grind / reward system being one of the bigger reasons for that.

You’re probably right. It’s not the lack of end game, or the boring pve, or the lackluster content updates. It’s probably the fact that people don’t get that BiS armor right away.

Devata.6589:

“The point is, the game is successful as it is " The point is, that the game has been getting less and less income since release (Something that the LS approach was supposed to prevent in the first place. An approach many people including me said would not work (turns out they were right)).

Hahaha !

When i told you that Boxxes-Sold and Gem Store Items are showned COMBINED in the 4-month Income report , and because ppl have already bought the Boxxes > they spent only money in the Gem Stores > thus they gain less money > you seemed understand it …

> But now you predicted all that too ?
Like Crysis 2-3 ?

I really love you , you makes such lovely comments in the forums and infront of the Company :P

Devata.6589:

The HoT expansion will for sure increase the income and number of players but if they then start dropping again the same way as before the game will have a problem.

Even in WoW they have the problems
As a SOFTWARE ENGINNER you havent heard of the initial spike and decline in various games after the release ? :P

But i agree , as another Oracles (intuition guy myself) i share the same dream about that Vision !
:P

Now , if you excuse me i have to drop some frog legs in the soup :P

Photonman.6241:

Devata.6589:

The big question is why numbers drop. I think that’s because people get bored by the game because of a number of things, but the grind / reward system being one of the bigger reasons for that.

You’re probably right. It’s not the lack of end game, or the boring pve, or the lackluster content updates. It’s probably the fact that people don’t get that BiS armor right away.

“You’re probably right.”
Thanks for agreeing with me.

However,
“It’s probably the fact that people don’t get that BiS armor right away.” I never said that. So I will assume you agree with what I did say and this is your addition to that.

I do not really agree with your addition I have to say.

Killthehealersffs.8940:

Devata.6589:

“The point is, the game is successful as it is " The point is, that the game has been getting less and less income since release (Something that the LS approach was supposed to prevent in the first place. An approach many people including me said would not work (turns out they were right)).

Hahaha !

When i told you that Boxxes-Sold and Gem Store Items are showned COMBINED in the 4-month Income report , and because ppl have already bought the Boxxes > they spent only money in the Gem Stores > thus they gain less money > you seemed understand it …

> But now you predicted all that too ?
Like Crysis 2-3 ?

I really love you , you makes such lovely comments in the forums and infront of the Company :P

Devata.6589:

The HoT expansion will for sure increase the income and number of players but if they then start dropping again the same way as before the game will have a problem.

“and because ppl have already bought the Boxxes > they spent only money in the Gem Stores > thus they gain less money”

Even in WoW they have the problems
As a SOFTWARE ENGINNER you havent heard of the initial spike and decline in various games after the release ? :P

But i agree , as another Oracles (intuition guy myself) i share the same dream about that Vision !
:P

Now , if you excuse me i have to drop some frog legs in the soup :P

“and because ppl have already bought the Boxxes > they spent only money in the Gem Stores > thus they gain less money”

Yes, you are now only comparing the initial spike with the income right after it. But also the money made with the gem-store has been dropping ever since. I am not referring to that first drop. Ever since release the income has dropped, also long after the boost of the initial sale.

“the initial spike and decline in various games after the release?” I think you missed the part where Anet wanted to use the LS to prevent this.. well some drop you will always have but that drop has not stopped.

You do not need to be an oracle to make some correct prediction. Just look at the facts, combine that with some logic sense. People do that all the time.

You want to hear some more of my ‘oracle’ predictions that came true. I said P2P would not work for Rift and for TCoS. Again I was right. I mention these thing not to proof I am always right because I am not. I simply do it to show that simply because a big company says something it’s not always true. An argument or idea that you see popping up in many threads where somebody says something that go’s against what the company is doing. The company has the people who know everything about this, the company has all the numbers. Yeah all nice and still it’s possible they are wrong and the people on the forum right. Thats all I am saying here.

Not just me, many people didn’t believe the LS would be able to keep the game alive like expansions could, but Anet seemed to believe in that for a long time. You can try to launch that claim away but it’s all over the forum and everybody who has been following the forums even a little bid over the years knows this to be true.

Here is an interesting small topic about it from back then: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Are-expansion-needed/first#post2963955

I really love that you created a thread , where you analize how to counter Grind ( and not create a grind inside the grind) and not a thread where :
‘’Lets not talk about who lied and why and who can proof it because as I see it its not one answer.
Also that gives admin a good bad excuse to close a thread.’’

Neither new intreresting ideas , you are giving us (that they are NOT ALREADY IN THE GAME) , nor anything worthwhile to read :P
But you simple keep dropping the ball : ‘’the company read our ideas , so … its their move to find a way…’’

In December of 2013 , the company made an offer .
If you spent real money to buy gems , you would get a Flying Kite Mini as a reward .
Why do you believe that they stopped that promotion ?

Why not have it 24/7 to earn more money ?

Maybe they are conflable with earning 20 millions pers quarter ?
Maybe they have singed that deal with NCsoft ?

Few ppl are paying that those 20 million . While the vast majority as using the gold>gems .

Why do you care if the gain less money per quarter ? are you an investor ? .:P

Have you thouhgt in your mind that Income gain from China doesnt show in the Income (but rather in the Revenues) ?

Now you predicted that Rift Rift and for TCoS would fail ?
Can you marry me in Holland ? :P
I want to play the Bell vs Bell game with you :P

eithinan.9841:

Bernie.8674:

The other common argument is that it’s not grinding because you can pick from a variety of grinds. You can run Champ Trains, WvW, Dry Top, and/or Silverwastes. Sorry, but all that crap is the same to me: repetitive, mind numbing, and only fun for about 45 minutes. LIke the title of this thread says, “Grind is Grind.” Just because you have 4 different forms of grind to pick from doesn’t make it “not grind.”

BUT, it doesn’t fit into what the developers define grind as. I also agree with what Anet defines it as. The fact that you can do anything to get rewards that progress you towards any end game goal you set for your self makes it not a grind. If that is the case any activity you do in game is a grind, which is a stupid way of looking at it. Some activities are more rewarding than others so you can find more efficient ways to get to that end goal quicker, but that goes to the self imposed repeating of content.

It is all circular arguments here when there is no grind in this game, unless you consider playing the content as a grind. If that is the case find other content to play.

And don’t cry about there being a gold standard, I for one am grateful there is a solid currency that hasn’t been destroyed. There is nothing less realistic than a living breathing world without a solid currency. Good currency = better immersion.

Grind is repeating content over and over to farm its rewards.

So yes eventually everybody goes full grind mode in MMOs, simply because these games cant possibly produce new content fast enough.

Anet also doesnt understand this.

What Anet means is: you do not need to farm to unlock content (which is true, you can do any kind of content without preparation in GW2).

That does not mean there is no grind in the game, you just grind for different reasons.
But that doesnt make any difference. If you grind for items with slightly better stats or if you grind for items with a really nice skin doesnt matter.

You are still grinding.