People who don’t know would like to be enlightened on how to play and get to level 80 in 30 hours. If it involves crafting I’m sure they’d like to know how to get the gold it would take to craft while playing a new character in 30 hours.
Basically, do dynamic events.
The chains to be done may differ from time to time. I leveled my thief almost entirely on Molten Alliance portals.
If it’s really possible to level from 1 to 80 via DEs in 30 hours then example of it being done would great. When areas had players running around them at launch and I was contributing to get bronze jumping between events while they were parallely in progress bcs multiple bronze rewards provide more exp than single gold rewards I couldn’t level at a pace of 1 lv in under 30 minutes. I was getting about 1 per hour on average.
And player’s would still be playing handicapped at lv 80 when it comes to gear. Grinding to reach maximum combat efficiency is not fun. Playing challenging content without being handicapped figuring out the most effective way to overcome a challenge and executing it is fun.
(edited by Shockwave.1230)
You can craft your way to level 80 in less time than that if you wish.
People who don’t know would like to be enlightened on how to play and get to level 80 in 30 hours. If it involves crafting I’m sure they’d like to know how to get the gold it would take to craft while playing a new character in 30 hours.
Basically, do dynamic events.
The chains to be done may differ from time to time. I leveled my thief almost entirely on Molten Alliance portals.
If it’s really possible to level from 1 to 80 via DEs in 30 hours then example of it being done would great. When areas had players running around them at launch and I was contributing to get bronze jumping between events while they were parallely in progress bcs multiple bronze rewards provide more exp than single gold rewards I couldn’t level at a pace of 1 lv in under 30 minutes. I was getting about 1 per hour on average.
And player’s would still be playing handicapped at lv 80 when it comes to gear. Grinding to reach maximum combat efficiency is not fun. Playing challenging content without being handicapped figuring out the most effective way to overcome a challenge and executing it is fun.
This post more than anything else shows the difference between how you play and what you find fun and how I play and what I find fun.
While I can enjoy challenging content, I don’t care at all about maximum combat efficiency. I managed a retail store for a long long time. the last thing I want to be in my game time is efficient. I want to get lost in the world, explore, have fun, fight some stuff…and the occasional challenge is welcomed at times when I want it.
But in general your idea of fun sounds pretty unfun to me. The thing is, there aren’t many MMOs (I can’t think of any) that support my style of play. There are tons of MMOs out there that support your style.
I just don’t get why people want to change this game to be more like so many other games, when those games are already out there.
Because if you guys succeed in changing this game into something you like, it’s extremely likely that those of us who like what this game is will have no MMOs left to play.
I could login to Guild Wars and in start a new character, play for about 30 hours and be max level with max gear having earned the gold for it in that time, and just play the game after that for it’s stories and challenges without ever having a thought cross my mind about am I playing with handicapped stats.
That’s no where near a possibility in Guild Wars 2. Guild Wars felt much more about enjoying well thought out quality content and stories. Guild Wars 2 distracts from that way too much with it’s grind.You could login to Guild Wars 2 and start a new character, play for about 30 hours, and be max level with nearly max gear (green) around which the entire game was balanced.
Then if you like you could play for a few more hours and get exotics.
Hear, Hear. Best response yet, except, to use several instead of few.
Actually, you can have all exotics within minutes of hitting 80. If you sell all materials, loot bags and drops that you get while levelling you will have more than enough gold to purchase all exotic gear on the TP.
However, for me, it took more like 40-50 hours to hit 80 on my more recent characters. (This is without crafting and only doing events, story and hearts)
I could login to Guild Wars and in start a new character, play for about 30 hours and be max level with max gear having earned the gold for it in that time, and just play the game after that for it’s stories and challenges without ever having a thought cross my mind about am I playing with handicapped stats.
That’s no where near a possibility in Guild Wars 2. Guild Wars felt much more about enjoying well thought out quality content and stories. Guild Wars 2 distracts from that way too much with it’s grind.You could login to Guild Wars 2 and start a new character, play for about 30 hours, and be max level with nearly max gear (green) around which the entire game was balanced.
Then if you like you could play for a few more hours and get exotics.
Hear, Hear. Best response yet, except, to use several instead of few.
Actually, you can have all exotics within minutes of hitting 80. If you sell all materials, loot bags and drops that you get while levelling you will have more than enough gold to purchase all exotic gear on the TP.
However, for me, it took more like 40-50 hours to hit 80 on my more recent characters. (This is without crafting and only doing events, story and hearts)
And if you save your daily karma jugs and don’t use them till you’re 80, you could probably buy exotic karma armor from the temples in Orr without spending any gold at all.
I could login to Guild Wars and in start a new character, play for about 30 hours and be max level with max gear having earned the gold for it in that time, and just play the game after that for it’s stories and challenges without ever having a thought cross my mind about am I playing with handicapped stats.
That’s no where near a possibility in Guild Wars 2. Guild Wars felt much more about enjoying well thought out quality content and stories. Guild Wars 2 distracts from that way too much with it’s grind.You could login to Guild Wars 2 and start a new character, play for about 30 hours, and be max level with nearly max gear (green) around which the entire game was balanced.
Then if you like you could play for a few more hours and get exotics.
Hear, Hear. Best response yet, except, to use several instead of few.
Actually, you can have all exotics within minutes of hitting 80. If you sell all materials, loot bags and drops that you get while levelling you will have more than enough gold to purchase all exotic gear on the TP.
However, for me, it took more like 40-50 hours to hit 80 on my more recent characters. (This is without crafting and only doing events, story and hearts)
And if you save your daily karma jugs and don’t use them till you’re 80, you could probably buy exotic karma armor from the temples in Orr without spending any gold at all.
Hmm I highly doubt this, Karma jug is what, 4k karma? You need 42k karma to buy some gear. I got around 100,000 k karma on one of my recent 80’s, but some of that is from CoF runs and post 80 time. Let’s assume that 75,000 karma is reasonable for a new 80.
I am going to assume I play more than most, so let’s say 2 hours per day levelling, at 40 hours = 20 days. 20 days * 4k karma = 80k karma + 75k karma = 155k karma. That is enough to get you 3 pieces of gear, not all 6. If you played like I did, you would have levelled to 80 in less than a week, so you would have had 20k + 75k karma = 95k karma or enough for 2 pieces of gear.
That is also excluding the fact that the stats on the gear is not ideal. It is better to purchase off the TP, because you can pick and choose your desired stats.
I would recommend you use that ~100-150k karma to purchase jewelry boxes from karma vendors and make gold. It will be enough gold to cover at least one of your items (and possibly more depending on luck).
How can dailies possibly feel like a grind? They just happen! All by themselves! As long as your play experience involves leaving Lion’s Arch occasionally, you’ll get your required dailies. I don’t think of achievements very often, but I notice I get my dailies pretty much every day I log in, for just having played the game. And even if doing irritating things like killing any mob or participating in any event were really such a pain that you didn’t like doing them, don’t. It’s just for shinies and negligible boosts anyway.
Well, it’s good for your e- (breakingupthekittensoyoucanseethe"E"atthebeginningandhopefullydeducewhatImtryingtosay)peen too.
Well even though I do agree with Daily’s being straight forward and easy to achieve, they do often suggest the “Mystic Forge, aka Toilet” where you have to throw items away.
Also when it comes to the Dungeon daily, of course the vets, strategic players will gaff at this, but there are many players out there who truly are “casual” and when in a dungeon they feel the pain. Countless wipes, frustration and costly repairs, some times even never completing the run. A 20min-40min dungeon path becomes a 3 hour chore. That’s a grind, and trust me it’s not fun. There’s also WvW dailies mixed in with the standard pve stuff. Even though I play wvw actively and have no issues with these, I’m sure many players do. They don’t want to be forced to kill 10 enemies or even be in there. (Though I wish they would join in on the fun)
You don’t have to do dailies or grind a lengendary to have the BIS, and they made ascended gear quite easy to get for casual, no need for grinding, just wander through its beautiful landscape and look at the cute little crabs on the beach, and you can get all 6 ascended items. No, you just have to play and, well sometimes you only need 1 more thing to end your daily, just do it, let’s say you do one daily a week, you still will get your ascended gear, nice and slow. Grind if you want to rush things like a 10yo, or just have fun with your friends and do some RPevent with the major RP guild or just watch them. You still will get your ascended, and even your legendary, with no grind of any kind.
Define casual, I’d call it playing 11-12 hours a week. Just to get all the dailies it would take most of that time and feel like a chore, dailies already feel like a grind to me.
Challenging puzzles, combat, platforming, and problem solving is how I want to be rewarded. That’s how Guild Wars was, minus the platforming. The only thing I ever was grinding for was titles, I was always on the same playing field as any other player when it came to combat. In this Guild Wars 2, that’s not true, you can’t get cheap max stat 1k armor and because of the trading system there’s no way for market amatuers to pull in wealth. You can’t just go find a handful of rare items that you’ll be able to get a piece of max stat gear in 2 hours or less.
In Guild Wars 2 you grind for vertical progression. People say that Exotics aren’t a grind, but they are. Even rares are a grind for casual players. I miss being able to just play and not have to worry about my stats at all, because I knew everyone else had the same stats as I did. You just play and you know that you’re not g|mped from what you could be at. That’s the biggest problem I have with Guild Wars 2, I couldn’t care less about grind when it comes to aesthetics, but when it comes to power progression and being on the same playing field as everyone else when it comes to the challenging content… that really rubs me the wrong way, because the game is centered around combat and it’s important everyone be on the same playing field when it comes to combat. I play with masterwork gear, because they’re cheap enough for the amount of time I have available to get what I need and be able to change my build and not have buyers remorse. If I spent more on gear I’d feel locked into a build and if it turned out to be a poor choice I’d be s.o.l.
I feel you’re pain brotha, I personally buy/craft exotic armor, and when it comes to build experimentation, trust me it’s very remorseval if the build ends up not being to par with what you expected. Then I end up buying trans stones out of the gem store (since they rarely/if ever drop in end game content) just to change it to another set. I hate the fact that I spend tons of gold on armor just to try a build. I guess I could try rare or masterwork, but I would be kidding myself in wvw to test a build when i’m not as effective as I could be.
Sorry I can’t agree with this. Too many changes too fast and you lose too many people and nothing evolves. Evolution is a slow process not a fast one. It takes time. For the genre to move forward, you have to give some people a bit of help…because they’ve spent years in other games learning what to expect from the genre. You can’t just expect people to say well okay it’s all changed now..good. It doesn’t work like that.
So Anet compromises. They give them a bit of what they want, but not so much since and that was a long time already. Essentially, Anet is weening people off gear progression. It won’t happen for everyone and it won’t happen right away, but it will happen over time for some people.
Making changes and expecting people to deal with them all at once…probably not the best way to run a railroad.
I’m not sure that evolution in the MMO genre is exactly what the thread is addressing. The MMO genre has evolved little over the years and GW2 was advertized to embody evolutionary changes that a lot of people recognized the need for. Some of those changes were described in the manifesto and in other pre-release materials. They weren’t pointing to an evolutionary process, but rather to a product that embodied the fruit of a needed evolutionary process that had already taken place in GW2.
And, you don’t wean people off gear progression by going from horizontal progression (post max level gear at max level) to vertical progression. Interestingly, if I actually believed that, I mean that they were attempting to wean people off VP, I wouldn’t be the forum warrior that I am. You wouldn’t happen to have a link for that, would you?
The best I can do in the analysis of cause is to assume that they got spooked and added VP to give people who complained about nothing to do something to do. Sadly, that compromise represents devolution not evolution within the genre. And, more to current topic, a reversal of pre-release promises.
Basically, do dynamic events.
The chains to be done may differ from time to time. I leveled my thief almost entirely on Molten Alliance portals.
If it’s really possible to level from 1 to 80 via DEs in 30 hours then example of it being done would great. When areas had players running around them at launch and I was contributing to get bronze jumping between events while they were parallely in progress bcs multiple bronze rewards provide more exp than single gold rewards I couldn’t level at a pace of 1 lv in under 30 minutes. I was getting about 1 per hour on average.
And player’s would still be playing handicapped at lv 80 when it comes to gear. Grinding to reach maximum combat efficiency is not fun. Playing challenging content without being handicapped figuring out the most effective way to overcome a challenge and executing it is fun.
This post more than anything else shows the difference between how you play and what you find fun and how I play and what I find fun.
While I can enjoy challenging content, I don’t care at all about maximum combat efficiency. I managed a retail store for a long long time. the last thing I want to be in my game time is efficient. I want to get lost in the world, explore, have fun, fight some stuff…and the occasional challenge is welcomed at times when I want it.
But in general your idea of fun sounds pretty unfun to me. The thing is, there aren’t many MMOs (I can’t think of any) that support my style of play. There are tons of MMOs out there that support your style.
I just don’t get why people want to change this game to be more like so many other games, when those games are already out there.
Because if you guys succeed in changing this game into something you like, it’s extremely likely that those of us who like what this game is will have no MMOs left to play.
In Guild Wars I was hardly compelled to do this at all, because maximum efficiency came so quickly. I was able to just get lost in the world and the content. 300 hours into GW2 and I’m still not feeling anywhere near emersed bcs there’s this handicapped feeling in the back of my mind.
I honestly don’t understand how players can be content playing content while not being on the same level playing field as every other player. The argument I always see in response to that is you play a game for yourself and don’t worry about other people. To which I ask, if people were worried about playing a game only in regard to themselves, why would they play be playing online games? Why not play single player games. It’s bcs online games are social and competitive, even PvE in MMOs is competitive, just look at the outrage of the leaderboards due to HoM, repeatable achievements, living stories, dailies, and monthlies. The only explanation I can think of is there are some who play online strictly for the social aspect and not for the competitive parts at all, which makes me ask, why play games at all? Aren’t they fun bcs they challenge people competitively whether it’s AI opponents in a game, opponents in multiplayer, or opponents in real sports. Doesn’t competition drive the fun in any kind of game? And aren’t the most competitive and interesting matches between evenly matched opponents where the same parameters apply to everyone? So in PvE you’re not just competing against AI for a challenge, you’re also competing against other players. And when you play casually and time is a constraint, but you’re a skilled player you fall behind in the competition with other players, because you don’t have the resources to keep up in gear. Then when things like player build previews come out, people reject you from joining in on things like dungeon runs bcs they think you are handicapping the group. And more gear of higher tiers comes out and high end content gets balanced around it. It all adds up to me wondering why they made vertical progression so grindy, when you’d think everyone wants to do the challenging content, but not everyone has the time or money to get the gear to be on the same playing field as everyone else.
These kind of thing wasn’t an issue in Guild Wars, bcs there was no vertical progression beyond level 20, and they are introducing issues that weren’t around in their old game bcs they’ve moved back to doing something every other MMO does. The only time in Guild Wars I saw people getting rejected for not being on the same playing field as everyone else was when Ursan blessing was first introduced and so strong it only made sense to grind out the title. Then they thankfully nerfed it, so that the title progression impact on people’s power wasn’t anywhere near as significant, mostly due to the downtime.
Most changes to the game since launch can be traced to player complaints. To name a few:
FotM & Ascended Gear: “I’ve gotten my dungeon set, I have nothing to work for! There’s no endgame!”
Laurels & Ascended Gear: “I want access to the best gear without having to do a dungeon I don’t like!”
Changes to Dailies/Monthlies: “I don’t think I should have to do x to get the daily/monthly. I don’t like doing x!”
Guaranteed Rares for meta event participation: “No one does the meta events because the rewards are kitten!”
Giving incentives to move players into different zones: “No one goes into many of the zones, they feel empty!”
Even the nerf to ranger pets can be traced to complaints about bunker/BM rangers in PvP.
Ah, grindbug infestation. Don’t bother feeding those that can never be satiated.
People who don’t know would like to be enlightened on how to play and get to level 80 in 30 hours. If it involves crafting I’m sure they’d like to know how to get the gold it would take to craft while playing a new character in 30 hours.
Basically, do dynamic events.
The chains to be done may differ from time to time. I leveled my thief almost entirely on Molten Alliance portals.
If it’s really possible to level from 1 to 80 via DEs in 30 hours then example of it being done would great. When areas had players running around them at launch and I was contributing to get bronze jumping between events while they were parallely in progress bcs multiple bronze rewards provide more exp than single gold rewards I couldn’t level at a pace of 1 lv in under 30 minutes. I was getting about 1 per hour on average.
And player’s would still be playing handicapped at lv 80 when it comes to gear. Grinding to reach maximum combat efficiency is not fun. Playing challenging content without being handicapped figuring out the most effective way to overcome a challenge and executing it is fun.
My necro hit 80 last week.
I did her entirely from scratch (no gold or items from other characters) with the exception of constant xp and crafting boosters (I have like 20 of each from random rewards). I leveled tailoring and cooking to max with my own gold, it took about 4g at the time after selling everything back. The rest was map exploration, gathering and every DE I found along the way.
In the end it took me 44 hours, I had 9g after selling everything I collected, 200k karma, 60% map completion, and full lvl 60 rare armor.
I then dipped into my main characters coffers and bought her full T3, transmuted them to rabid stats, bought all 5 ascended pieces of jewelry, and full exotic weapons for both under and above water with all superior runes and sigils. Even that was not that expensive (minus the 130g for the T3), It was about 14g for the armor, 2g for the runes, 6g for the sigils, 24 guild comms, 20 PFR’s, and 40 laurels.
Now I just need to save some money up to finish making an ascended backpack and I will be all set all under 50 hours.
Uhh…yea. But people have beaten this horse to death, drudging up old comments made by ANet employees from years ago, writing page long posts, and even linking “the manifesto” in their signature.
I like to talk about games too. I’m just saying that people take the complaints to the level of an unhealthy obsession.
The game is what it is.
People were sold the game based on the manifesto and other marketing from around that time. They had a high opinion of anet as a players company based on GW1 and the way they sold GW2.
So when its revealed that it was all a bunch of marketing BS and that anet are really just another corporate game company they feel disappointed and betrayed.
I could login to Guild Wars and in start a new character, play for about 30 hours and be max level with max gear having earned the gold for it in that time, and just play the game after that for it’s stories and challenges without ever having a thought cross my mind about am I playing with handicapped stats.
That’s no where near a possibility in Guild Wars 2. Guild Wars felt much more about enjoying well thought out quality content and stories. Guild Wars 2 distracts from that way too much with it’s grind.You could login to Guild Wars 2 and start a new character, play for about 30 hours, and be max level with nearly max gear (green) around which the entire game was balanced.
Then if you like you could play for a few more hours and get exotics.
Hear, Hear. Best response yet, except, to use several instead of few.
Actually, you can have all exotics within minutes of hitting 80. If you sell all materials, loot bags and drops that you get while levelling you will have more than enough gold to purchase all exotic gear on the TP.
However, for me, it took more like 40-50 hours to hit 80 on my more recent characters. (This is without crafting and only doing events, story and hearts)
And if you save your daily karma jugs and don’t use them till you’re 80, you could probably buy exotic karma armor from the temples in Orr without spending any gold at all.
Hmm I highly doubt this, Karma jug is what, 4k karma? You need 42k karma to buy some gear. I got around 100,000 k karma on one of my recent 80’s, but some of that is from CoF runs and post 80 time. Let’s assume that 75,000 karma is reasonable for a new 80.
I am going to assume I play more than most, so let’s say 2 hours per day levelling, at 40 hours = 20 days. 20 days * 4k karma = 80k karma + 75k karma = 155k karma. That is enough to get you 3 pieces of gear, not all 6. If you played like I did, you would have levelled to 80 in less than a week, so you would have had 20k + 75k karma = 95k karma or enough for 2 pieces of gear.
That is also excluding the fact that the stats on the gear is not ideal. It is better to purchase off the TP, because you can pick and choose your desired stats.
I would recommend you use that ~100-150k karma to purchase jewelry boxes from karma vendors and make gold. It will be enough gold to cover at least one of your items (and possibly more depending on luck).
I guess you never got a karma booster, or used any karma buffs, because I’m getting over 7000 karma from jugs. There’s foods that boost karma, buffs that boost karma, all sorts of stuff.
Depending on how long you take to level, you can end up with a whole lot of karma jugs…particularly because in the past, monthlies were relatlively easy to get which give you ten jugs or 75,000 karma just from doing one monthly.
Now, if you’re doing events, and zone completions, which a lot of people do, by the time they’re a month into the game, it’s quite easy to say have 40 jugs of karma. That’s the daily every day and the monthly plus all the other stuff you do.
And let’s say you can’t get an ENTIRE suit of armor. You can get half your armor, or two thirds.
The point is it’s another option without spending any gold.
Uhh…yea. But people have beaten this horse to death, drudging up old comments made by ANet employees from years ago, writing page long posts, and even linking “the manifesto” in their signature.
I like to talk about games too. I’m just saying that people take the complaints to the level of an unhealthy obsession.
The game is what it is.
People were sold the game based on the manifesto and other marketing from around that time. They had a high opinion of anet as a players company based on GW1 and the way they sold GW2.
So when its revealed that it was all a bunch of marketing BS and that anet are really just another corporate game company they feel disappointed and betrayed.
So a company made an ad that made their game look good. An ad which had in it actual game play, where most companies make ads and have some bullkitten video cut scene that doesn’t represent gameplay at all, and you say the company was acting like a business? lol
I bought Rift on one of their trailers and likewise felt disappointed because the stuff they said in the trailers wasn’t true. But instead of the company saying it, they had fans say it. The company chose to put that ad up and yes, I bought into the game.
But in the end, all companies try to sell their products. The thing is, the manifesto is obviously emotionally charged and people chose to interpret certain things one way when they were in fact meant another way…and that’s always going to happen.
Most of what was said in the manifesto remains true to this day. And anyone who actually looks at what’s being said, particularly with what was clarified immediately after (Ree talking about personal story, Colin talking about DEs)…well, yeah.
With all the hundreds of hours after the manifesto of Anet explaining everything in great detail to people, I can’t imagine people fall back on blaming the manifesto.
I could login to Guild Wars and in start a new character, play for about 30 hours and be max level with max gear having earned the gold for it in that time, and just play the game after that for it’s stories and challenges without ever having a thought cross my mind about am I playing with handicapped stats.
That’s no where near a possibility in Guild Wars 2. Guild Wars felt much more about enjoying well thought out quality content and stories. Guild Wars 2 distracts from that way too much with it’s grind.You could login to Guild Wars 2 and start a new character, play for about 30 hours, and be max level with nearly max gear (green) around which the entire game was balanced.
Then if you like you could play for a few more hours and get exotics.
Hear, Hear. Best response yet, except, to use several instead of few.
Actually, you can have all exotics within minutes of hitting 80. If you sell all materials, loot bags and drops that you get while levelling you will have more than enough gold to purchase all exotic gear on the TP.
However, for me, it took more like 40-50 hours to hit 80 on my more recent characters. (This is without crafting and only doing events, story and hearts)
And if you save your daily karma jugs and don’t use them till you’re 80, you could probably buy exotic karma armor from the temples in Orr without spending any gold at all.
Hmm I highly doubt this, Karma jug is what, 4k karma? You need 42k karma to buy some gear. I got around 100,000 k karma on one of my recent 80’s, but some of that is from CoF runs and post 80 time. Let’s assume that 75,000 karma is reasonable for a new 80.
I am going to assume I play more than most, so let’s say 2 hours per day levelling, at 40 hours = 20 days. 20 days * 4k karma = 80k karma + 75k karma = 155k karma. That is enough to get you 3 pieces of gear, not all 6. If you played like I did, you would have levelled to 80 in less than a week, so you would have had 20k + 75k karma = 95k karma or enough for 2 pieces of gear.
That is also excluding the fact that the stats on the gear is not ideal. It is better to purchase off the TP, because you can pick and choose your desired stats.
I would recommend you use that ~100-150k karma to purchase jewelry boxes from karma vendors and make gold. It will be enough gold to cover at least one of your items (and possibly more depending on luck).
I guess you never got a karma booster, or used any karma buffs, because I’m getting over 7000 karma from jugs. There’s foods that boost karma, buffs that boost karma, all sorts of stuff.
Depending on how long you take to level, you can end up with a whole lot of karma jugs…particularly because in the past, monthlies were relatlively easy to get which give you ten jugs or 75,000 karma just from doing one monthly.
Now, if you’re doing events, and zone completions, which a lot of people do, by the time they’re a month into the game, it’s quite easy to say have 40 jugs of karma. That’s the daily every day and the monthly plus all the other stuff you do.
And let’s say you can’t get an ENTIRE suit of armor. You can get half your armor, or two thirds.
The point is it’s another option without spending any gold.
Of course I have used Karma boosters, that isn’t to say you will automatically have one leveling up and hitting 80 – maybe you will and maybe you won’t.
If you have more karma from the booster that means you can even get more gold from the jewelery boxes.
Naturally, this really depends on how fast you level. For myself, as I said, it took me around a week and ~40 hours. I had a few jugs from that, but definitely not anywhere near 40.
You also didn’t address the point that the stats on the karma gear are really bad. You’re much better off spending 30 g and getting zerker gear or something. It doesn’t matter that you have to spend gold, because it is so easy to come by. You can have ~40 gold pretty easily from leveling as long as you sell mats and things along the way. You can have another 10-20 gold from jewelery boxes using our combined methods (your karma boosters and apparently 40 jugs).
On another note, you won’t be able to get all of your exotic rings/amulets and weapons via Karma gear
So a company made an ad that made their game look good. An ad which had in it actual game play, where most companies make ads and have some bullkitten video cut scene that doesn’t represent gameplay at all, and you say the company was acting like a business? lol
I wasn’t an ad though, nor was the associated information presented to players around the time.
As for acting like a business they could make a product actually for players which makes them money they did it with GW1. They started to with GW2 but then they deviated away from it to maximise profit and include what I would call anti player systems which are basically a treadmill keeping people playing and spending money in the cash shop, not to mention the gambling boxes.
Most of what was said in the manifesto remains true to this day. And anyone who actually looks at what’s being said, particularly with what was clarified immediately after (Ree talking about personal story, Colin talking about DEs)…well, yeah.
Not gonna debate this with you because you’re wrong and its useless debating the topic any more.
(edited by morrolan.9608)
Uhh…yea. But people have beaten this horse to death, drudging up old comments made by ANet employees from years ago, writing page long posts, and even linking “the manifesto” in their signature.
I like to talk about games too. I’m just saying that people take the complaints to the level of an unhealthy obsession.
The game is what it is.
People were sold the game based on the manifesto and other marketing from around that time. They had a high opinion of anet as a players company based on GW1 and the way they sold GW2.
So when its revealed that it was all a bunch of marketing BS and that anet are really just another corporate game company they feel disappointed and betrayed.
Interesting. From an outside perspective, as someone who didn’t play GW1 or any MMO for the past 10 years, I don’t really see why people make these types of complaints about the game. The game is very progressive in the world of MMOs, so much that it attracts players like myself who are primarily console gamers. You aren’t forced to buy anything, and the game doesn’t force you into the typical MMO grind like other games. It provides you with a huge open world and allows you to choose how to play (some people just choose to grind). Its really quite a beautiful game.
I don’t know what the betrayal, false information, etc. was that people felt sold on, but did you ever think thakittens possible that people took information and created a set of false expectations in their head about what that information meant?
I don’t know what the betrayal, false information, etc. was that people felt sold on, but did you ever think thakittens possible that people took information and created a set of false expectations in their head about what that information meant?
It feels like the opposite, actually – that ArenaNet made some decisions and had to go back on some of them. The dye system being account bound (with the former Nexon employee telling us later that no, the system would become character wide, and oh, dyes would be sold at the in-game store under a lottery system), dungeons giving tokens instead of a piece of gear per run, the addition of dailies (something Colin spoke against in one of the early blogs), the need to grind to get maxed gear, the changes to Legendary items, and so on.
Now, there are multiple possible reasons for the above changes. It feels like those within ArenaNet that believe grind is healthy for the game simply had a louder voice than those who believe otherwise, at the end of the development process.
So a company made an ad that made their game look good. An ad which had in it actual game play, where most companies make ads and have some bullkitten video cut scene that doesn’t represent gameplay at all, and you say the company was acting like a business? lol
I wasn’t an ad though, nor was the associated information presented to players around the time.
As for acting like a business they could make a product actually for players which makes them money they did it with GW1. They started to with GW2 but then they deviated away from it to include what I would call anti player systems which are basically a treadmill keeping people playing and spending money in the cash shop, not to mention the gambling boxes.
Most of what was said in the manifesto remains true to this day. And anyone who actually looks at what’s being said, particularly with what was clarified immediately after (Ree talking about personal story, Colin talking about DEs)…well, yeah.
Not gonna debate this with you because you’re wrong and its useless debating the topic any more.
Everything in the Gem Store is 100% optional. The RNG boxes are 100% optional. People may prefer a straight up buy of their desired item, but that’s not the model ANet uses 100% of the time (although it IS what they do MOST of the time), and players are free to make their own choices.
There is no treadmill anywhere in this game other than the fact thakittens a RPG, which inherently means that it includes continued adventure for new items and new levels of progression, but beyond level 80 this is all optional. GW2 does it in a much more fair and accessible fashion than other MMOs.
Again I think where many people have gone wrong with this game is to play it in a fashion they don’t enjoy. They ‘grind’ and ‘farm’ for things and its not fun, but they do it because they feel compelled to do it. Honestly that sounds like someone with a problem and that person should probably step away from the game and take a reality check, reassess their situation, and get back to playing games in a fashion that they find enjoyable.
So a company made an ad that made their game look good. An ad which had in it actual game play, where most companies make ads and have some bullkitten video cut scene that doesn’t represent gameplay at all, and you say the company was acting like a business? lol
I wasn’t an ad though, nor was the associated information presented to players around the time.
As for acting like a business they could make a product actually for players which makes them money they did it with GW1. They started to with GW2 but then they deviated away from it to include what I would call anti player systems which are basically a treadmill keeping people playing and spending money in the cash shop, not to mention the gambling boxes.
Most of what was said in the manifesto remains true to this day. And anyone who actually looks at what’s being said, particularly with what was clarified immediately after (Ree talking about personal story, Colin talking about DEs)…well, yeah.
Not gonna debate this with you because you’re wrong and its useless debating the topic any more.
It wasn’t an ad? Really? Based on what evidence.
It was CLEARLY advertising for their product. They made an ad. How can you look at the manifesto as anything else.
It didn’t really go into detail or explain anything like a how to. It was a statement of intent, but if you can’t see ad when you look at the manifesto, I’m not sure what else there is to talk about.
What does the word ad mean to you? To me it was a way for the company to promote their upcoming product. It’s like what companies do.
What does the word ad mean to you? To me it was a way for the company to promote their upcoming product. It’s like what companies do.
Were their blogs of the time ads? They are all part of a PR campaign to publicise the game but not necessarily ads in their own right. And it doesn’t matter really whether its technically an ad or not they still made false statements in it, or statements that they later back away from.
(edited by morrolan.9608)
They made an ad. How can you look at the manifesto as anything else.
It didn’t really go into detail or explain anything like a how to. It was a statement of intent
You have just replied your own question. The Manifesto isn’t simply an ad; it’s also (in fact, it’s more importantly) a statement of intent.
They made an ad. How can you look at the manifesto as anything else.
It didn’t really go into detail or explain anything like a how to. It was a statement of intent
You have just replied your own question. The Manifesto isn’t simply an ad; it’s also (in fact, it’s more importantly) a statement of intent.
In fact, it’s more importantly not a binding document.
There is no treadmill anywhere in this game other than the fact thakittens a RPG, which inherently means that it includes continued adventure for new items and new levels of progression, but beyond level 80 this is all optional. GW2 does it in a much more fair and accessible fashion than other MMOs.
Again I think where many people have gone wrong with this game is to play it in a fashion they don’t enjoy. They ‘grind’ and ‘farm’ for things and its not fun, but they do it because they feel compelled to do it. Honestly that sounds like someone with a problem and that person should probably step away from the game and take a reality check, reassess their situation, and get back to playing games in a fashion that they find enjoyable.
Guild Wars did not have veritical progression and it was a role playing game. Max stat gear was readily available.
I stopped playing GW2 for months because of the grind. When I came back there’s even more vertical progression, ascended items.
So would your suggestion be for anyone who enjoyed ANet’s last game and was expecting their next game to follow the same philosophies to not push for the things that drew them to the development company in the first place to be brought back?
Most changes to the game since launch can be traced to player complaints. To name a few:
FotM & Ascended Gear: “I’ve gotten my dungeon set, I have nothing to work for! There’s no endgame!”
Laurels & Ascended Gear: “I want access to the best gear without having to do a dungeon I don’t like!”
Changes to Dailies/Monthlies: “I don’t think I should have to do x to get the daily/monthly. I don’t like doing x!”
Guaranteed Rares for meta event participation: “No one does the meta events because the rewards are kitten!”
Giving incentives to move players into different zones: “No one goes into many of the zones, they feel empty!”
Even the nerf to ranger pets can be traced to complaints about bunker/BM rangers in PvP.
Ah, grindbug infestation. Don’t bother feeding those that can never be satiated.
You laugh, but can you tell me with a straight face that this is not exactly what ANet did?
What does the word ad mean to you? To me it was a way for the company to promote their upcoming product. It’s like what companies do.
Were their blogs of the time ads? They are all part of a PR campaign to publicise the game but not necessarily ads in their own right. And it doesn’t matter really whether its technically an ad or not they still made false statements in it, or statements that they later back away from.
The only statement I consider to be “false” is the everything you love about Guild Wars 1.
And that clearly is impossible since anyone who thinks it through must realize everyone loves different stuff. If everything everyone loved was in Guild Wars 2 it would be guild wars 1. I saw that as marketing speak the moment I heard it. I can’t believe anyone would take that literally.
There is nothing else in the manifesto that was backed away from. Zero. Zilch. Nothing.
If you actually listen to what’s being said instead of inserting your own meaning for what you think it means.
They made an ad. How can you look at the manifesto as anything else.
It didn’t really go into detail or explain anything like a how to. It was a statement of intent
You have just replied your own question. The Manifesto isn’t simply an ad; it’s also (in fact, it’s more importantly) a statement of intent.
Sure but a statement of intent is not a guarantee of delivery. You can’t have it both ways. And it was obviously put out to market the game. I don’t see how anyone can deny that.
There is no treadmill anywhere in this game other than the fact thakittens a RPG, which inherently means that it includes continued adventure for new items and new levels of progression, but beyond level 80 this is all optional. GW2 does it in a much more fair and accessible fashion than other MMOs.
Again I think where many people have gone wrong with this game is to play it in a fashion they don’t enjoy. They ‘grind’ and ‘farm’ for things and its not fun, but they do it because they feel compelled to do it. Honestly that sounds like someone with a problem and that person should probably step away from the game and take a reality check, reassess their situation, and get back to playing games in a fashion that they find enjoyable.
Guild Wars did not have veritical progression and it was a role playing game. Max stat gear was readily available.
I stopped playing GW2 for months because of the grind. When I came back there’s even more vertical progression, ascended items.
So would your suggestion be for anyone who enjoyed ANet’s last game and was expecting their next game to follow the same philosophies to not push for the things that drew them to the development company in the first place to be brought back?
Guild Wars 1 didn’t have vertical progression? I beg to differ.
The PvE only skills ALL had vertical progression. What it didnt’ have was vertical GEAR progression. But you can’t tell me people didn’t grind to get lightbringer points or kurzick/luxon points, or any of the EotN reputation points with the four different factions.
You can say Guild Wars 1 didn’t have vertical progression all you want. All I can say is LFG R8 Ursan.
There was plenty of vertical progression in Guild Wars 1. You just don’t like that they shifted it from skill progression to gear progression.
There is no treadmill anywhere in this game other than the fact thakittens a RPG, which inherently means that it includes continued adventure for new items and new levels of progression, but beyond level 80 this is all optional. GW2 does it in a much more fair and accessible fashion than other MMOs.
Again I think where many people have gone wrong with this game is to play it in a fashion they don’t enjoy. They ‘grind’ and ‘farm’ for things and its not fun, but they do it because they feel compelled to do it. Honestly that sounds like someone with a problem and that person should probably step away from the game and take a reality check, reassess their situation, and get back to playing games in a fashion that they find enjoyable.
Guild Wars did not have veritical progression and it was a role playing game. Max stat gear was readily available.
I stopped playing GW2 for months because of the grind. When I came back there’s even more vertical progression, ascended items.
So would your suggestion be for anyone who enjoyed ANet’s last game and was expecting their next game to follow the same philosophies to not push for the things that drew them to the development company in the first place to be brought back?
Yes, I would suggest that you post stating that in their next game you would prefer they revert back to their old system. You can do that without complaining about this game. This game is what it is, so enjoy it for what it is, and quit trying to make it something its not. If you prefer GW1 then go play it. That’s not meant to be rude either, I legitimately feel like people should spend their time gaming where they find the most enjoyment.
I’ve only played this game since late February. I’m a single dad who commutes and works a full time job. I don’t ignore my child and I wait to play until after she goes to bed. I have a few weekends a month free to play between other things. Without ever “grinding” or “farming” I’ve managed to level two 80s complete with exotic gear and almost complete with Ascended trinkets. I’ve got a commander’kitten for WvW, pretty much ever cosmetic item I want, and I still have a lot of excess gold and inventory.
I’m a console gamer prior to this game. I play video games because they are fun, and never treat them as a chore or hamster-wheel chase rewards. Its why I bought this game and no other MMO game in the past decade. To say this game is a gear grind is a complete falsity. Simply play they game however you would like and you will earn enough gold to buy any gear you want from the TP if you don’t find it along the way (which I usually did not). While there are a few other items you need to make an effort to obtain, such as Ascended items or Dungeon gear, you can do so quite easily and without grinding.
Grinding is a choice, its not a built in necessity.
There is no treadmill anywhere in this game other than the fact thakittens a RPG, which inherently means that it includes continued adventure for new items and new levels of progression, but beyond level 80 this is all optional. GW2 does it in a much more fair and accessible fashion than other MMOs.
Again I think where many people have gone wrong with this game is to play it in a fashion they don’t enjoy. They ‘grind’ and ‘farm’ for things and its not fun, but they do it because they feel compelled to do it. Honestly that sounds like someone with a problem and that person should probably step away from the game and take a reality check, reassess their situation, and get back to playing games in a fashion that they find enjoyable.
Guild Wars did not have veritical progression and it was a role playing game. Max stat gear was readily available.
I stopped playing GW2 for months because of the grind. When I came back there’s even more vertical progression, ascended items.
So would your suggestion be for anyone who enjoyed ANet’s last game and was expecting their next game to follow the same philosophies to not push for the things that drew them to the development company in the first place to be brought back?
Guild Wars 1 didn’t have vertical progression? I beg to differ.
The PvE only skills ALL had vertical progression. What it didnt’ have was vertical GEAR progression. But you can’t tell me people didn’t grind to get lightbringer points or kurzick/luxon points, or any of the EotN reputation points with the four different factions.
You can say Guild Wars 1 didn’t have vertical progression all you want. All I can say is LFG R8 Ursan.
There was plenty of vertical progression in Guild Wars 1. You just don’t like that they shifted it from skill progression to gear progression.
Already addressed this previously. UB was nerfed bcs it incentivized people to do vertical progression due to its power and effectiveness. The VP associated with titles could only increase the power of 3 skills at most in a skill bar at any given time. The PvE skills themselves were impactful without grinding out the titles. While the vp made up to 3 additional skills stronger it was of minimal impact overall and not a theme of the game.
So yes potentially 3 skills in a skill bar could have vertical progression. The overall difference in power between different ranks was small enough to go unnoticed, save Ursan blessing which was a mistake Anet remedied.
There is no treadmill anywhere in this game other than the fact thakittens a RPG, which inherently means that it includes continued adventure for new items and new levels of progression, but beyond level 80 this is all optional. GW2 does it in a much more fair and accessible fashion than other MMOs.
Again I think where many people have gone wrong with this game is to play it in a fashion they don’t enjoy. They ‘grind’ and ‘farm’ for things and its not fun, but they do it because they feel compelled to do it. Honestly that sounds like someone with a problem and that person should probably step away from the game and take a reality check, reassess their situation, and get back to playing games in a fashion that they find enjoyable.
Guild Wars did not have veritical progression and it was a role playing game. Max stat gear was readily available.
I stopped playing GW2 for months because of the grind. When I came back there’s even more vertical progression, ascended items.
So would your suggestion be for anyone who enjoyed ANet’s last game and was expecting their next game to follow the same philosophies to not push for the things that drew them to the development company in the first place to be brought back?
Guild Wars 1 didn’t have vertical progression? I beg to differ.
The PvE only skills ALL had vertical progression. What it didnt’ have was vertical GEAR progression. But you can’t tell me people didn’t grind to get lightbringer points or kurzick/luxon points, or any of the EotN reputation points with the four different factions.
You can say Guild Wars 1 didn’t have vertical progression all you want. All I can say is LFG R8 Ursan.
There was plenty of vertical progression in Guild Wars 1. You just don’t like that they shifted it from skill progression to gear progression.
Already addressed this previously. UB was nerfed bcs it incentivized people to do vertical progression due to its power and effectiveness. The VP associated with titles could only increase the power of 3 skills at most in a skill bar at any given time. The PvE skills themselves were impactful without grinding out the titles. While the vp made up to 3 additional skills stronger it was of minimal impact overall and not a theme of the game.
So yes potentially 3 skills in a skill bar could have vertical progression. The overall difference in power between different ranks was small enough to go unnoticed, save Ursan blessing which was a mistake Anet remedied.
I totally disagree with this. Some of the skills were the centerpoint of builds. I didn’t make up people looking for R8 ursans for example, that was not only in the game, but it was common enough for Anet to nerf it.
I’m sure perma-sins required a leveled up PvE only skill to be permasins and I’m 100% sure that people had to level up their luxon/kurzick skill Save Yourselves to be an imbagon paragon.
And there were people who LIVED on pain inverter and technobabble, not to mention the Asura summons for most people.
Some of those skills were almost as good as elites and often they REALLY REALLY helped with content.
You can say it was only 8 skills all you want, but I NEVER could justify not taking necrosis on my necro. I just couldn’t do it.
You’d probably be right of those skills weren’t better than 90% of the skills in the game.
Arguably, ascended gear means LESS than the PvE only skills in Guild Wars 2. No one makes any builds around ascended gear. It’s nice to have but it doesn’t affect content nearly as much as some of the PvE only skills did.
I mean how many people demanded an Imbagon in their group before they’d attempt DOA?
(edited by Vayne.8563)
The only statement I consider to be “false” is the everything you love about Guild Wars 1.
I do not fault ANet for failing to completely follow through with every bit of the manifesto, but does that village stay saved ? Does the boss stay defeated ? Do they still not want us to grind ? Do they still not like the idea of dailies ?
No amount of post manifesto, “clarification,” can change the fact, not opinion, that numerous elements and points made in the manifesto did not come to fruition.
My response to the fact that a company with limited experience producing a full-fledged MMO had to face reality and make adjustments to their intentions in order to bring their product to market….so what. It happens. Its life. Its business. That doesn’t mean it didnt happen though.
There is no treadmill anywhere in this game other than the fact thakittens a RPG, which inherently means that it includes continued adventure for new items and new levels of progression, but beyond level 80 this is all optional. GW2 does it in a much more fair and accessible fashion than other MMOs.
Again I think where many people have gone wrong with this game is to play it in a fashion they don’t enjoy. They ‘grind’ and ‘farm’ for things and its not fun, but they do it because they feel compelled to do it. Honestly that sounds like someone with a problem and that person should probably step away from the game and take a reality check, reassess their situation, and get back to playing games in a fashion that they find enjoyable.
Guild Wars did not have veritical progression and it was a role playing game. Max stat gear was readily available.
I stopped playing GW2 for months because of the grind. When I came back there’s even more vertical progression, ascended items.
So would your suggestion be for anyone who enjoyed ANet’s last game and was expecting their next game to follow the same philosophies to not push for the things that drew them to the development company in the first place to be brought back?
Guild Wars 1 didn’t have vertical progression? I beg to differ.
The PvE only skills ALL had vertical progression. What it didnt’ have was vertical GEAR progression. But you can’t tell me people didn’t grind to get lightbringer points or kurzick/luxon points, or any of the EotN reputation points with the four different factions.
You can say Guild Wars 1 didn’t have vertical progression all you want. All I can say is LFG R8 Ursan.
There was plenty of vertical progression in Guild Wars 1. You just don’t like that they shifted it from skill progression to gear progression.
Already addressed this previously. UB was nerfed bcs it incentivized people to do vertical progression due to its power and effectiveness. The VP associated with titles could only increase the power of 3 skills at most in a skill bar at any given time. The PvE skills themselves were impactful without grinding out the titles. While the vp made up to 3 additional skills stronger it was of minimal impact overall and not a theme of the game.
So yes potentially 3 skills in a skill bar could have vertical progression. The overall difference in power between different ranks was small enough to go unnoticed, save Ursan blessing which was a mistake Anet remedied.
I totally disagree with this. Some of the skills were the centerpoint of builds. I didn’t make up people looking for R8 ursans for example, that was not only in the game, but it was common enough for Anet to nerf it.
I’m sure perma-sins required a leveled up PvE only skill to be permasins and I’m 100% sure that people had to level up their luxon/kurzick skill Save Yourselves to be an imbagon paragon.
And there were people who LIVED on pain inverter and technobabble, not to mention the Asura summons for most people.
Some of those skills were almost as good as elites and often they REALLY REALLY helped with content.
You can say it was only 8 skills all you want, but I NEVER could justify not taking necrosis on my necro. I just couldn’t do it.
You’d probably be right of those skills weren’t better than 90% of the skills in the game.
Arguably, ascended gear means LESS than the PvE only skills in Guild Wars 2. No one makes any builds around ascended gear. It’s nice to have but it doesn’t affect content nearly as much as some of the PvE only skills did.
I mean how many people demanded an Imbagon in their group before they’d attempt DOA?
Did you have to grind out titles for any PvE skills to be effective? No they were naturally effective. Up to 3 skills in your bar gained marginal power by grinding. Do I like that this was true? No. But I also understand that when you got the skills they were still incredible on their own without even trying to do the vp associated with them. Do not mistake the skills existence with vp. Just playing the game you had r3-r6 for various titles, without grinding at all. When you got those skills they were still incredible without the grind. Asura summons were wasted skill slots in my opinion. SoS or an MM was better for dealing and soaking up damage, but that’s neither here nor there.
The point is you can’t try to say that the marginal increase in power obtained from vp grind that affects 3 skills in a bar was a philosophical pillar that Guild Wars lived by. It was obviously not.
My response to the fact that a company with limited experience producing a full-fledged MMO had to face reality and make adjustments to their intentions in order to bring their product to market….so what. It happens. Its life. Its business. That doesn’t mean it didnt happen though.
IMHO thats a reasonable position to take. However I would argue that they didn’t even try to make their original vision work. They panicked in November, or before, given that decisions about ascended gear must have been made well before the Nov 15 patch, and this was when the game was only a couple of months old. And they didn’t help themselves by denying the issue eg. Mike O’Brien’s reddit post during the Q&A durnig that period.
Did you have to grind out titles for any PvE skills to be effective? No they were naturally effective. Up to 3 skills in your bar gained marginal power by grinding. Do I like that this was true? No. But I also understand that when you got the skills they were still incredible on their own with even trying to do the vp associated with them. Do not mistake the skills existence with vp. Just playing the game you had r3-r6 for various titles, without grinding at all. When you got those skills they were still incredible without the grind. Asura summons were wasted skill slots in my opinion. SoS or an MM was better for dealing and soaking up damage, but that’s neither here nor there.
The point is you can’t try to say that the marginal increase in power obtained from vp grind that affects 3 skills in a bar was a philosophical pillar that Guild Wars lived by. It was obviously not.
You are exhibiting a double standard here.
You use the standard of, “to be effective,” for GW1’s version of vertical progression while you hold GW2 to a standard of, “best,” gear.
The reality of the matter is that no you did not need max rank with a PvE skill to be effective in GW1. Nor do you need the best possible gear in GW2 to be effective.
If you chose to put the time in to maxing your ranks to fuel your PvE skills in GW1 you would have higher performance than if you did not. If you choose to put the time into gaining the best possible gear in GW2 you will have better performance than if you do not.
It could take hundreds, if not thousands of hours to max out your titles to power your PvE skills in GW1. It takes a fraction, a tiny fraction, of that to get the best gear in GW2.
Both games had vertical progression that affected character performance. GW1’s took longer to pursue.
@LordByron
If you are refering to the thread regarding Ascended items when they were first released, it’s 34.000 posts not 34.000 players. I alone contributed to 6-7 of them. As a GW1 player, I didn’t like their introduction but I now understand that it was a compromise they add to do and that their implementation is one of the best one could come up if they wanted to please 2 opposite kind of players.
if you understand you don t play enough pve to see some mob stats to increase while ascended stuff was released ….
Also how many views had that thread?
Was the biggest thread this forum will ever see and the most clear feedback EVER seen in a game forum
ignoring it as random complaint its just hypocrisy.
Interesting. From an outside perspective, as someone who didn’t play GW1 or any MMO for the past 10 years, I don’t really see why people make these types of complaints about the game. The game is very progressive in the world of MMOs, so much that it attracts players like myself who are primarily console gamers.
You should’ve seen Guild Wars 1.
I don’t know what the betrayal, false information, etc. was that people felt sold on, but did you ever think thakittens possible that people took information and created a set of false expectations in their head about what that information meant?
No. The fact there are so many of us who believe Anet has backtracked on their Manifesto is solid evidence they are at fault for the miscommunication; it is their responsibility to prevent misunderstandings, and they could have been perfectly clear.
The only statement I consider to be “false” is the everything you love about Guild Wars 1.
I do not fault ANet for failing to completely follow through with every bit of the manifesto, but does that village stay saved ? Does the boss stay defeated ? Do they still not want us to grind ? Do they still not like the idea of dailies ?
No amount of post manifesto, “clarification,” can change the fact, not opinion, that numerous elements and points made in the manifesto did not come to fruition.
My response to the fact that a company with limited experience producing a full-fledged MMO had to face reality and make adjustments to their intentions in order to bring their product to market….so what. It happens. Its life. Its business. That doesn’t mean it didnt happen though.
Yes, actually. After the manifesto came out, due to the confusion it caused, Anet posted a clarification of the manifesto. It was widely talked about at the time.
Ree is talking about the personal story. Everything you do in your personal story stays that way. Colin is talking about dynamic events.
Editing for style caused confusion and Anet clarified it. People knew what Ree and Colin were talking about.
Without the clarification it was indeed confusing but you obviously couldn’t have a permanently rescued village in the open world. Which brings me to the next point.
AFTER the manifesto this stuff was discussed and expounded upon and explained ad nauseum. It was done at conventions and the panels are still available to view. It was done in interviews. It was done at AMAs on Reddit. It was done on Guru. There are so many times and ways this was explained.
Sure if you came to the game today, this might be all new to you if you didn’t follow it, but there’s NO excuse for anyone following the game not to understand what was meant in the manifesto. Anyone who says otherwise is being liberal with reality.
Interesting. From an outside perspective, as someone who didn’t play GW1 or any MMO for the past 10 years, I don’t really see why people make these types of complaints about the game. The game is very progressive in the world of MMOs, so much that it attracts players like myself who are primarily console gamers.
You should’ve seen Guild Wars 1.
I don’t know what the betrayal, false information, etc. was that people felt sold on, but did you ever think thakittens possible that people took information and created a set of false expectations in their head about what that information meant?
No. The fact there are so many of us who believe Anet has backtracked on their Manifesto is solid evidence they are at fault for the miscommunication; it is their responsibility to prevent misunderstandings, and they could have been perfectly clear.
Nothing is ever perfectly clear. As a professional editor, I can personally guarantee that. There is no such thing as perfect clarity. Times when Anet says something that’s not clear, such as the manifesto, they posted clarifications of and explained (and explained and explained).
Both games had vertical progression that affected character performance. GW1’s took longer to pursue.
Shockwave expresses that he did not like the vertical progression that is present in Guild Wars 1, so let’s not go too overboard with the double standard accusation.
Part of the issue is that balance between the stat boost and amount of time you have to invest. In Guild Wars 1 it would take too much time to fully rank up and get the best stat for the PvE-only skills (for some of them). I think this can be compared to the Agony upgrades in Guild Wars 2 which you can upgrade to give an extra 5 or 6 stats, but at an insane price; I’m never going to do that (although I’m still bothered by it). I will however go for Ascended gear since that is more feasible, although I hate it. I want to be done with my focus on stats rather quickly, and just focus on playing the game, perhaps go for things that look awesome. Right now all my plans for Guild Wars 2 are focused on getting the best gear for my main and my alts, and this will keep me busy for the foreseeable feature. This was not a problem in Guild Wars 1.
Did you have to grind out titles for any PvE skills to be effective? No they were naturally effective. Up to 3 skills in your bar gained marginal power by grinding. Do I like that this was true? No. But I also understand that when you got the skills they were still incredible on their own with even trying to do the vp associated with them. Do not mistake the skills existence with vp. Just playing the game you had r3-r6 for various titles, without grinding at all. When you got those skills they were still incredible without the grind. Asura summons were wasted skill slots in my opinion. SoS or an MM was better for dealing and soaking up damage, but that’s neither here nor there.
The point is you can’t try to say that the marginal increase in power obtained from vp grind that affects 3 skills in a bar was a philosophical pillar that Guild Wars lived by. It was obviously not.
You are exhibiting a double standard here.
You use the standard of, “to be effective,” for GW1’s version of vertical progression while you hold GW2 to a standard of, “best,” gear.
The reality of the matter is that no you did not need max rank with a PvE skill to be effective in GW1. Nor do you need the best possible gear in GW2 to be effective.
If you chose to put the time in to maxing your ranks to fuel your PvE skills in GW1 you would have higher performance than if you did not. If you choose to put the time into gaining the best possible gear in GW2 you will have better performance than if you do not.
It could take hundreds, if not thousands of hours to max out your titles to power your PvE skills in GW1. It takes a fraction, a tiny fraction, of that to get the best gear in GW2.
Both games had vertical progression that affected character performance. GW1’s took longer to pursue.
I also stated that I didnt like the vp in Gw associated with PvE skills, bcs it was a grind to max them and it was a chore.
I was able to deal with it bcs the power increase impacted 0,1,2, or 3 skills in a build and the increase in power was small enough from what they were naturally obtained at to be mostly unnoticable.
Additionally the vp imact on PvE skills were added towards the latter half of Guild Wars’ life. It was not a foundational pillar of the game.
The only double standard I am holding is that I dealt with the minimal to 0 impact of vp to only part of builds in Guild Wars as opposed to the much heavier impact gear vp plays on entire builds in Gw2.
Nothing is ever perfectly clear. As a professional editor, I can personally guarantee that. There is no such thing as perfect clarity. Times when Anet says something that’s not clear, such as the manifesto, they posted clarifications of and explained (and explained and explained).
They have not yet explained how all the grinding elements that are currently in the game fit with their manifesto. They have not even explained why they are adding those things. Your possible interpretations are only conjecture.
Perhaps it is time for another AMA by Anet, focused on the manifesto.
Sorry I can’t agree with this. Too many changes too fast and you lose too many people and nothing evolves. Evolution is a slow process not a fast one. It takes time. For the genre to move forward, you have to give some people a bit of help…because they’ve spent years in other games learning what to expect from the genre. You can’t just expect people to say well okay it’s all changed now..good. It doesn’t work like that.
So Anet compromises. They give them a bit of what they want, but not so much since and that was a long time already. Essentially, Anet is weening people off gear progression. It won’t happen for everyone and it won’t happen right away, but it will happen over time for some people.
Making changes and expecting people to deal with them all at once…probably not the best way to run a railroad.
I’m not sure that evolution in the MMO genre is exactly what the thread is addressing. The MMO genre has evolved little over the years and GW2 was advertized to embody evolutionary changes that a lot of people recognized the need for. Some of those changes were described in the manifesto and in other pre-release materials. They weren’t pointing to an evolutionary process, but rather to a product that embodied the fruit of a needed evolutionary process that had already taken place in GW2.
And, you don’t wean people off gear progression by going from horizontal progression (post max level gear at max level) to vertical progression. Interestingly, if I actually believed that, I mean that they were attempting to wean people off VP, I wouldn’t be the forum warrior that I am. You wouldn’t happen to have a link for that, would you?
The best I can do in the analysis of cause is to assume that they got spooked and added VP to give people who complained about nothing to do something to do. Sadly, that compromise represents devolution not evolution within the genre. And, more to current topic, a reversal of pre-release promises.
I don’t have a link for that, I’m looking what what Anet is doing rather than what they’re saying.
Typical MMO has new gear tier every 3 months. It’s been more than six months since Ascended gear came out. During that time we have an amulet which can only be gotten from laurals. We have rings, which can be gotten numerous ways, including laurels. We have earrings which can be gotten in some ways. And we have a backpack which can only be attained by doing fractals (and the LS temporarily).
This isn’t a game that has this huge curve. It’s not gear grind. It’s simply stuff they put out there. There’s as yet been no sign of ascended armor or weapons.
It is my belief, and that’s all it is, that Anet did something to stop a mass exodus, while trying to find a way forward that would keep people engaged. Which means that now, with the Living Story starting to do that (and it has), we might NEVER see ascended weapons and armor with higher stats. It’s been theorized by a few people, but Anet has neither confirmed nor denied this.
Anet has not changed their vision. They changed their approach. I don’t believe for one second when they talked about cosmetic only upgrades they didn’t mean it. Now they’re doing it, through the LS.
If it’s successful, if they can get enough people to be there to just play with this new paradigm, then they may very well NOT increase stats.
At any rate, Anet isn’t a person it’s a company. Eric Flannum might have been well against vertical progression and lost an argument with other people. But I really do believe Anet still believes everything they said originally and they just couldn’t convince the players that it was the way to go forward.
It will be interesting to see what Anet does from here.
Did you have to grind out titles for any PvE skills to be effective? No they were naturally effective. Up to 3 skills in your bar gained marginal power by grinding. Do I like that this was true? No. But I also understand that when you got the skills they were still incredible on their own with even trying to do the vp associated with them. Do not mistake the skills existence with vp. Just playing the game you had r3-r6 for various titles, without grinding at all. When you got those skills they were still incredible without the grind. Asura summons were wasted skill slots in my opinion. SoS or an MM was better for dealing and soaking up damage, but that’s neither here nor there.
The point is you can’t try to say that the marginal increase in power obtained from vp grind that affects 3 skills in a bar was a philosophical pillar that Guild Wars lived by. It was obviously not.
You are exhibiting a double standard here.
You use the standard of, “to be effective,” for GW1’s version of vertical progression while you hold GW2 to a standard of, “best,” gear.
The reality of the matter is that no you did not need max rank with a PvE skill to be effective in GW1. Nor do you need the best possible gear in GW2 to be effective.
If you chose to put the time in to maxing your ranks to fuel your PvE skills in GW1 you would have higher performance than if you did not. If you choose to put the time into gaining the best possible gear in GW2 you will have better performance than if you do not.
It could take hundreds, if not thousands of hours to max out your titles to power your PvE skills in GW1. It takes a fraction, a tiny fraction, of that to get the best gear in GW2.
Both games had vertical progression that affected character performance. GW1’s took longer to pursue.
I also stated that I didnt like the vp in Gw associated with PvE skills, bcs it was a grind to max them and it was a chore.
I was able to deal with it bcs the power increase impacted 0,1,2, or 3 skills in a build and the increase in power was small enough from what they were naturally obtained at to be mostly unnoticable.
Additionally the vp imact on PvE skills were added towards the latter half of Guild Wars’ life. It was not a foundational pillar of the game.
The only double standard I am holding is that I dealt with the minimal to 0 impact of vp to only part of builds in Guild Wars as opposed to the much heavier impact gear vp plays on entire builds in Gw2.
Sorry, but you hold GW1 to a standard of, “to be effective,” and GW2 to a standard of, “the best possible.”
That is, by definition, a double standard.
You can be effective in GW2 without the best gear. The amount that the stat gain going from rare to exotic armor/weapons affects your build in GW2 is far less than the difference between an unranked character with nearly half of his entire skill bar comprised of PvE skills and that same build with max rank.
It is my belief, and that’s all it is, that Anet did something to stop a mass exodus, while trying to find a way forward that would keep people engaged. Which means that now, with the Living Story starting to do that (and it has), we might NEVER see ascended weapons and armor with higher stats. It’s been theorized by a few people, but Anet has neither confirmed nor denied this.
Anet has not changed their vision. They changed their approach. I don’t believe for one second when they talked about cosmetic only upgrades they didn’t mean it. Now they’re doing it, through the LS.
I am unsure about the motivations but I do believe they meant everything they said. But now they’ve made mistakes and they need to be rectified, not kept.
Also, regarding the mass exodus hypothesis, why would they care? I am playing with the thought that your hardcore group does not spend as much money as more casual players as they have plenty of gold to convert. Casual players (like I want to be but can’t due to the kitten grind such as time gated crafting and Dailies) do not have the gold to convert to gems and sometimes do want to buy things available in the Gem Store. Heck, I’d even like to support Anet financially every other few weeks, although I hate it that they’re rewarding people now for doing this every month, giving them otherwise unattainable items.
What would be the reason they cannot just tell us what their reasoning is?
Sorry, but you hold GW1 to a standard of, “to be effective,” and GW2 to a standard of, “the best possible.”
That is, by definition, a double standard.
You can be effective in GW2 without the best gear. The amount that the stat gain going from rare to exotic armor/weapons affects your build in GW2 is far less than the difference between an unranked character with nearly half of his entire skill bar comprised of PvE skills and that same build with max rank.
I see your point, but you should also see his. He gives a very reasonable clarification of his position. Would you mind focusing on the actual problems at hand?
Yes, actually. After the manifesto came out, due to the confusion it caused, Anet posted a clarification of the manifesto. It was widely talked about at the time.
Ree is talking about the personal story. Everything you do in your personal story stays that way. Colin is talking about dynamic events.
Editing for style caused confusion and Anet clarified it. People knew what Ree and Colin were talking about.
Without the clarification it was indeed confusing but you obviously couldn’t have a permanently rescued village in the open world. Which brings me to the next point.
AFTER the manifesto this stuff was discussed and expounded upon and explained ad nauseum. It was done at conventions and the panels are still available to view. It was done in interviews. It was done at AMAs on Reddit. It was done on Guru. There are so many times and ways this was explained.
Sure if you came to the game today, this might be all new to you if you didn’t follow it, but there’s NO excuse for anyone following the game not to understand what was meant in the manifesto. Anyone who says otherwise is being liberal with reality.
You make a solid argument, in this very thread, that the manifesto was an ad for GW2. I agree. It, along with my time spent in GW1, is what encouraged me to buy the game. I don’t know what AMAs is (American Music Awards ?), have never visited Reddit, stopped visiting Guru before the GW2 Manifesto was announced. So the question is, were the clarifications being presented with the ad ? I mean neither of us considers what was done to be really an example of bait and switch, but a published ad whose content is revised at unconnected outside sources is exactly that.
And again, what specific clarification references whether or not a boss stays dead, or a village stays saved, etc. Dynamic Events rotate fairly quickly. The manifesto refers to permanent changes…nothing associated with a character’s interaction with a DE is permanent.
Did you have to grind out titles for any PvE skills to be effective? No they were naturally effective. Up to 3 skills in your bar gained marginal power by grinding. Do I like that this was true? No. But I also understand that when you got the skills they were still incredible on their own with even trying to do the vp associated with them. Do not mistake the skills existence with vp. Just playing the game you had r3-r6 for various titles, without grinding at all. When you got those skills they were still incredible without the grind. Asura summons were wasted skill slots in my opinion. SoS or an MM was better for dealing and soaking up damage, but that’s neither here nor there.
The point is you can’t try to say that the marginal increase in power obtained from vp grind that affects 3 skills in a bar was a philosophical pillar that Guild Wars lived by. It was obviously not.
You are exhibiting a double standard here.
You use the standard of, “to be effective,” for GW1’s version of vertical progression while you hold GW2 to a standard of, “best,” gear.
The reality of the matter is that no you did not need max rank with a PvE skill to be effective in GW1. Nor do you need the best possible gear in GW2 to be effective.
If you chose to put the time in to maxing your ranks to fuel your PvE skills in GW1 you would have higher performance than if you did not. If you choose to put the time into gaining the best possible gear in GW2 you will have better performance than if you do not.
It could take hundreds, if not thousands of hours to max out your titles to power your PvE skills in GW1. It takes a fraction, a tiny fraction, of that to get the best gear in GW2.
Both games had vertical progression that affected character performance. GW1’s took longer to pursue.
I also stated that I didnt like the vp in Gw associated with PvE skills, bcs it was a grind to max them and it was a chore.
I was able to deal with it bcs the power increase impacted 0,1,2, or 3 skills in a build and the increase in power was small enough from what they were naturally obtained at to be mostly unnoticable.
Additionally the vp imact on PvE skills were added towards the latter half of Guild Wars’ life. It was not a foundational pillar of the game.
The only double standard I am holding is that I dealt with the minimal to 0 impact of vp to only part of builds in Guild Wars as opposed to the much heavier impact gear vp plays on entire builds in Gw2.
Sorry, but you hold GW1 to a standard of, “to be effective,” and GW2 to a standard of, “the best possible.”
That is, by definition, a double standard.
You can be effective in GW2 without the best gear. The amount that the stat gain going from rare to exotic armor/weapons affects your build in GW2 is far less than the difference between an unranked character with nearly half of his entire skill bar comprised of PvE skills and that same build with max rank.
I already clarified this and you are telling me I dont mean what I said.
Again naturally, the title progression for those few pve skills in a build came out to r3-r6 for just playing the game’s story. It was different per title which rank specifically. The difference in those few skills power was small from what you naturally got them at by just playing the game. Small enough for me to overlook the impact of 3 skills in a skill bar even though I didn’t like it. It only affected power in part of a build. Not the entire build. In Gw2 if with a masterwork set of gear and a rare set of mods I’m hardly less power effective than someone with exotics and ascendeds, you won’t see me complaining bcs thats more than easy to make up for by paying a little more attention while playing. But look at the actual disparity between masterwork gear and exotics/ascended. Look at the difference between rare mods and exotic mods. It’s way more than negligible, which is where I admit to a double standard. In Guild Wars the vp was negligible, I don’t like it but I’ll deal. In GW2 it’s not, and I won’t deal.
So why the dyes are not account wide?
Not affiliated with ArenaNet or NCSOFT. No support is provided.
All assets, page layout, visual style belong to ArenaNet and are used solely to replicate the original design and preserve the original look and feel.
Contact /u/e-scrape-artist on reddit if you encounter a bug.