Guild Wars 2

Colin Johanson
“Most MMOs these days make you grind and do really repetitive, boring content over and over again. There are moments of fun, but then you’re back swinging your sword over and over again, chasing around a moth or an ogre that’s standing around in the world doing nothing. That’s the part of the genre we think players are done with. We want to make something that’s better than that.”

So with that in mind, how is grinding for dungeon tokens not grinding? Or the new gear tread mill not a gear treadmill?

Linsey Murdock
“… we don’t want to overlook the basic need for players to feel like they are progressing and growing even after hitting max level. Adding item progression is a delicate process normally undertaken in an expansion, but we feel it’s important to strive to satisfy the basic needs of our players sooner rather than later.”

So now we don’t have a tread mill, we have “progressing”.

Does anyone else feel many of the original selling points to this game have been changed after launch? Bait and switch?

IMHO, Anet is trying to strike a delicate balance. They wanted to originally create a game without grinding… Players have said they don’t want random gear drops from bosses that may NEVER drop for them like in that OTHER mmo (statistics aside, some players just never get the loot they’re after). In its place, we have token rewards which gives you progress towards gear every time you complete a dungeon-run (no randomness there). But, that system can start to feel like a grind. So, what can you do???

Legendary weapons are a grind at the moment… that is the way they’re currently implemented to make the process take a long time and lots of effort. Devs have said better things will be implemented for these in the future.

For the gear tread mill debate… check out the merged thread. I’m sure it has been discussed there.

i couldnt agree more. not only is it a grind, its a grind for stuff you dont even know will benefit you ( you cant test builds without some kind of meter). fyi, this post is going to get shut down for “complaining” even though its in a general discussion forum. general discussion can contain complaints to the kitten moderators on here. My post just got taken down for that. apparently if your opinion is negative, its not helpful to point out flaws in this games grind for looks mentality. This game is a grindfest and very boring at 80.

GOSU.9574:

So with that in mind, how is grinding for dungeon tokens not grinding? Or the new gear tread mill not a gear treadmill?

The point is that it’s not required to be en par with other players. The “best” gear when it comes to stats is always relatively easy to get. Well it was until now, considering the amount of time it’ll take to get ascended gear will eventually fill the gap between exotics and legendaries.

You don’t have to grind to access the content. As in, I don’t need to grind to get to max level so I can play an entirely different game. You do need to work for rewards. What else would you expect? Them to just give stuff away?

No MMO is without grind. Its impossible to achieve this. Even GW1 had grind (even though GW1 is not an MMO). Kurzick/Luxon title was a pretty lengthy grind. Getting obsidian armor was a pretty lengthy grind. Etc etc.

Magiofdeath.2745:

No MMO is without grind. Its impossible to achieve this. Even GW1 had grind (even though GW1 is not an MMO). Kurzick/Luxon title was a pretty lengthy grind. Getting obsidian armor was a pretty lengthy grind. Etc etc.

+1

Or how about Legendary Defender of Ascalon?

noother.2190:

Magiofdeath.2745:

No MMO is without grind. Its impossible to achieve this. Even GW1 had grind (even though GW1 is not an MMO). Kurzick/Luxon title was a pretty lengthy grind. Getting obsidian armor was a pretty lengthy grind. Etc etc.

+1

Or how about Legendary Defender of Ascalon?

the grind in GW1 was for titles and skins, which are very different beasts all together. they still retained the image of superiority that players crave without making people statistically better. the issue with gear is that we have to grind it out to keep up where as titles we can pick and choose which ones we want to accomplish or none at all.

again as i have said in other posts, i will be waiting to see this new content before i make a judgement as to how grindy this will be. I think the infusion mechanic could be interesting depending on how it is implemented

GOSU.9574:

Colin Johanson
“Most MMOs these days make you grind and do really repetitive, boring content over and over again. There are moments of fun, but then you’re back swinging your sword over and over again, chasing around a moth or an ogre that’s standing around in the world doing nothing. That’s the part of the genre we think players are done with. We want to make something that’s better than that.”

So with that in mind, how is grinding for dungeon tokens not grinding? Or the new gear tread mill not a gear treadmill?

Linsey Murdock
“… we don’t want to overlook the basic need for players to feel like they are progressing and growing even after hitting max level. Adding item progression is a delicate process normally undertaken in an expansion, but we feel it’s important to strive to satisfy the basic needs of our players sooner rather than later.”

So now we don’t have a tread mill, we have “progressing”.

Does anyone else feel many of the original selling points to this game have been changed after launch? Bait and switch?

Ok for me what the scary thing is, is what Linsey Murdock said about item progression usually being rolled out in an expansion.

What I’m not sure about now is. Is this going to be an ongoing thing with this gear creep and item stat increases?

We were told in no uncertain terms that the grind was going to be an optional thing we could do for rare ultra exotic looking skins. Has this changed?

I would really like to hear from Arena net what the plan is now, because the game feels like its changing from the original marketing message.

The ideology behind the game they released is the game I want to play …. I’m not sure I want to spend anymore time in the game it’s morphing into.

This is the most ironic quote ever,

“Most MMOs these days make you grind and do really repetitive, boring content over and over again."

LMAO. All this game is, is repetitive, boring content over and over again. Dungeon grinding. Leveling is the ultimate boring repetitive thing I have seen to date in an mmo. Farming an event over and over again to just get xp isn’t repetitive or boring? They are the same events all areas.

Iruwen.3164:

The point is that it’s not required to be en par with other players.

Are you serious? You can say that about any mmo then. And sorry but it IS required if you want to do good. Don’t hand me this load of BS saying it isn’t required. WoW isn’t required to be on par either.

I can’t believe how people can even justify their comments when they basically flat out lied and doing the complete opposite. I bet if they said the sky is green the same people defending their comments here would find a way to defend that too.

Magiofdeath.2745:

No MMO is without grind. Its impossible to achieve this. Even GW1 had grind (even though GW1 is not an MMO). Kurzick/Luxon title was a pretty lengthy grind. Getting obsidian armor was a pretty lengthy grind. Etc etc.

Yes but is only for titles or achievement and the obsidian don’t give any advantage on the others armor.

It’s a bit like merging in the non-merged thread, which is bound to follow

I’m mostly surprised they couldn’t come up with anything different.

And one other thing: this isn’t a small thing to design. The basic plans for this must have been laid out before launch…
I don’t like that thought.

bojangles.6912:

This is the most ironic quote ever,

“Most MMOs these days make you grind and do really repetitive, boring content over and over again."

LMAO. All this game is, is repetitive, boring content over and over again. Dungeon grinding. Leveling is the ultimate boring repetitive thing I have seen to date in an mmo. Farming an event over and over again to just get xp isn’t repetitive or boring? They are the same events all areas.

Leveling in this game is the most non-grind in any MMO I have seen. What games are you playing where it is less “grindy”. Certainly not WoW, SWToR or any of the current crop of MMOs. You can level in GW2 so many different ways, from crafting to exploring to dungeoning.

I think a lot of people need to step back and realize what the MMO genre is, its a timesink and abnegation. THIS IS NOT THE GENRE TO FIND HARD, SKILL TESTING GAMEPLAY.

displacedTitan.6897:

Leveling in this game is the most non-grind in any MMO I have seen. What games are you playing where it is less “grindy”. Certainly not WoW, SWToR or any of the current crop of MMOs. You can level in GW2 so many different ways, from crafting to exploring to dungeoning.

I think a lot of people need to step back and realize what the MMO genre is, its a timesink and abnegation. THIS IS NOT THE GENRE TO FIND HARD, SKILL TESTING GAMEPLAY.

But you lost me at “MMO Genre”
So FPS is a time-sink, RTS is a time-sink…

it is a matter of perspective.

bojangles.6912:

This is the most ironic quote ever,

“Most MMOs these days make you grind and do really repetitive, boring content over and over again."

LMAO. All this game is, is repetitive, boring content over and over again. Dungeon grinding. Leveling is the ultimate boring repetitive thing I have seen to date in an mmo. Farming an event over and over again to just get xp isn’t repetitive or boring? They are the same events all areas.

I agree about the Dungeon thing, they get boring fast for me repeating the same thing over and over in the same boxed in environment.

However what I do enjoy about this game is currently there is a path to max gear in nearly every facet of the game so you never have to work (grind) content you don’t want to.

You can find a path to max gear through karma, crafting, events or dungeons it the player’s choice.

I have 3 level 80’s I have still not seen every event or completed every map in the game so by that token you don’t need to repeat the same content over and over again unless you chose to.

That said I got into the rut at times of repeating the area and event I know just because I’m failure with them and its faster than hunting up new event pockets especially if I’m trying to get a daily completion achievement, …but again that’s player choice.
In short even when players are given multiple paths to follow we will still choose to do what we are familiar with and then call it a grind.

What is uncertain at this point is has this new gear type now pend us into dungeons? Will crafting and karma still have a path to the top end items in the game?

Have our choices been reduced by this new ground hog day content? …. What does this mean for the future of the game are we now in a stat driven Skinner Box? ….Will See!

Guys, remember Anet is a “responsible MMO company” so they must be doing everything right. Don’t fret.

Looking back I found myself grinding severeal dungeons over and over again (Caudecus, Crucible) to get a gear just for its looks.
Now I finally got ‘em and I’m more than sick of grinding, hoping -well expecting- I#ld never ever have to do this s**t again.

And now I’m getting told I have to do this over and over again, for each armor I own? every few month; just in order to stay competitive in WvW?
I neither have the time for that, nor do I’ll go through this grinding pain again.
I’ll rather play a MOBA instead…

its a game.
after all that carnage, in the end, whats left of you?

so enjoy slaying beasts and go thru new content.
if you want to grind its your choice, but not more necessary than everything else.
if you play the new dungeon, youll end up dying and then going deeper, finding your new gear in the process..
its shallow, its all about enjoying the gameplay.
i guess.

We all know grind and progression have existed from the beginning. But a treadmill is not just something you run on without really getting anywhere, a treadmill is also narrow. By decreasing the ways to get the best possible gear, Anet is progressing the game closer to a treadmill game.

Many of us base our objections, not so much on continued progression (they did say after all that we would eventually have more than 80 levels, right?) but on the narrowing of that progression.

One reason I love leveling and hate endgame is that while leveling I can mix it up. I can pvp, craft, wander solo, get groups or (in games with a good dungeon finder) hop in and out of dungeons.

Faced with an endgame grind that is all about dungeons, I’ll finish leveling my alts instead, thanks. But of course that puts an end to my hopes for finally being on level ground in WvW, and since WvW was my favorite thing to do in the game, that reduces my enjoyment of this game and reduces the time I’ll play it and certainly puts an end to my willingness to buy more content or character slots or inventory space.

Hunterdan.4921:

You don’t have to grind to access the content. As in, I don’t need to grind to get to max level so I can play an entirely different game. You do need to work for rewards. What else would you expect? Them to just give stuff away?

I expect them to make a game that’s fun enough to play without dangling a carrot in front of my face to get me to do it.

It’s supposed to be fun, not work.

What many are missing is it was stated, one might even say in a flippant tone towards other MMOs that have grind, that there would be no grind since there wouldn’t be a pay subscription driven by the grind. Yet here we are, with the grind put into the game to keep players coming back to NOT pay a monthly sub but Anet hopes to buy junk off the BLTC. It’s the same deal, the deal they said wasn’t necessary, that this game would break away, be different.

It was a BAIT AND SWITCH.

Once units were sold, here you go, get to running the new tread mill. Buy stuff from our store.

Now they try and say its sorta like this one shot deal, but if you read recent statements they plan to release MORE gear upgrades. Now they won’t even admit there will be no future tiering. They just rename it, it’s repackaged as PROGRESSION.

They sold out. They did the ol’ bait and switch. Admit it, and they should as well.

I won’t buy any future Anet products, I won’t put any more money on this game. Just like with WoW and previous games, once I feel the company has lied to me, I speak with my money.

I can understand the fact that mmos evolve over time. But this kind of thing happens more often than not. We sign up to play a certain game with a company that says “we are gonna do it like this” and shortly after launch you find out actually no they are not at all going to do it that way. Areananet is a smaller less offensive example but you could say bait and switch it is an appropriate term.

I dont think I have seen a 185 page thread on anything in these forums ever and the pitchfork ragefest in that other threadnaught was to be expected. I guarantee you some people at Anet cringed and facepalmed when the decision was made.

bojangles.6912:

Iruwen.3164:

The point is that it’s not required to be en par with other players.

Are you serious? You can say that about any mmo then. And sorry but it IS required if you want to do good. Don’t hand me this load of BS saying it isn’t required. WoW isn’t required to be on par either.

I can’t believe how people can even justify their comments when they basically flat out lied and doing the complete opposite. I bet if they said the sky is green the same people defending their comments here would find a way to defend that too.

You should try reading my comment again (probably not only the first sentence) and not leave out the relevant part when quoting. I said the exact opposite of what you understood.

No grinding? Have they looked at the ingredients of the Legendary weapons? Or tier 3 cultural armor prices? Or /facepalm the Commander icon?

To make the “no grinding” even more fun they gave us DR!!!!!! What’s that you need 250 Powerful blood? We will make it even more fun and throw you some DR for that rare drop so you can have 7 out of 10 NPCs drop AIR yes that’s right AIR!!!!!!!!!!

It’s an MMO I expect to have to grind. I will grind for things I want. I am LIVID over the AIR drops though. As if spending days/weeks/MONTHS grinding for low drop items isn’t bad enough without there being farm code on the very NPCs you are forced to grind.

I am on my last leg with this company and I was there when they started. This is not the company I felt compelled to talk up and sell to my friends to play.

Hunterdan.4921:

You don’t have to grind to access the content. As in, I don’t need to grind to get to max level so I can play an entirely different game. You do need to work for rewards. What else would you expect? Them to just give stuff away?

Some of us hate dungeons. Now we are forced to do them so that we don’t get crushed in WvWvW. How is that fun, again?

When these guys sit down at meetings , thier first concern is always going to be revenue. Cosmetic progression most probably was not bringing in the revenue they had hoped. Those people up top at areananet are not judged on how much fun you are having. You could see this quite clearly in wow, where they dumbed down the game to cater to the wider revenue stream.

Bottomline is , promises in business last only as long as the profits. Anyone who thinks they won’t add another tier of gear if they feel it will raise profits, is not being realistic. It does not matter an iota to them who leaves the game, as long as the margins are there.

They have bet on the fact that this will raise revenue, and the losses to population will be offset by more frequent purchases from the store to aquire the new gear. they absolutly knew going in they would lose players.

xtorma.1283:

When these guys sit down at meetings , thier first concern is always going to be revenue. Cosmetic progression most probably was not bringing in the revenue they had hoped. Those people up top at areananet are not judged on how much fun you are having. You could see this quite clearly in wow, where they dumbed down the game to cater to the wider revenue stream.

Bottomline is , promises in business last only as long as the profits. Anyone who thinks they won’t add another tier of gear if they feel it will raise profits, is not being realistic. It does not matter an iota to them who leaves the game, as long as the margins are there.

They have bet on the fact that this will raise revenue, and the losses to population will be offset by more frequent purchases from the store to aquire the new gear. they absolutly knew going in they would lose players.

Good, thay can count this fool who in just two monts has spent around $700 out! I hope they enjoy my attempt to recoup my money spent for running a bait and switch fraud. The forms have already been filled out at my states AGs web portal!

edit to add – A promise made by a business in its advertising and promoting a product or service constitutes a contract when that product or service is sold. That has bearing in law. My states business and professions code prohibits this type of bait and switch activity with penalies ranging from fines to criminal sanctions. If I can’t get traction at state level I’ll also file a complaint at the FTC. Bait and switch tactics are also regulated by the federal government.

An issue such as this was recently taken to federal court by the US Govt. That suit lost, but the advertising promises were much more vague that this blatent 180 degree change that has just been foisted on us. I just hope at some level an Attorney Generals office wants to sink its teeth into this. This is much greater than the puffery in ads that Bioware had to litigate.

Here’s how you fix player progression:

Lower the max level to 40 so that the player still has at least 70% of the game to play through at max level.

70% of the game is endgame?!

It worked for GW1.

Why they ever changed it is beyond me. The only thing I can think of is that they changed it because ‘that other MMO’ has a high level cap.

The Ascended gear treadmill is the beginning of this game’s death.

WoW is laughing at you Anet.

World of Warcraft forum topic: GW2 Introduces Gear Treadmills

im ok with the new stuff they are adding, but i wish they would have huge type quests (not dungeons) for harder to get items. like you go on a journey doing quests for weapons or parts of a set of armor that has a whole storyline of its own. thats what i like most about mmo’s is the huge open world and the journey you go on experiencing a fantasy through your character. if they had no story or quests i probally wouldnt bother playing mmo’s. fixing endgame with a few new items here and there or dungeons to repeat 20 times to get something isnt fun to me. it isnt adding to the journey of my character its only adding to my character. although i may do the dungeons if i want the items its not fun. the dungeons are fun the first time, but if i have to do them 20 more times just to get something it becomes boring.

i cant speak for everyone, but to me its all about the journey and story and not about the stats on my characters weapons and armor. thats just an extra to do as i go on the journey. but as i said above if there was a story behind the legendarys or exotics ect… that im trying to get it would add more to it i think.

Xidra.5789:

WoW is laughing at you Anet.

World of Warcraft forum topic: GW2 Introduces Gear Treadmills

TBF it looks like most of the thread is laughing at the OP..

SoulTrain.2157:

im ok with the new stuff they are adding, but i wish they would have huge type quests (not dungeons) for harder to get items. like you go on a journey doing quests for weapons or parts of a set of armor that has a whole storyline of its own. thats what i like most about mmo’s is the huge open world and the journey you go on experiencing a fantasy through your character. if they had no story or quests i probally wouldnt bother playing mmo’s. fixing endgame with a few new items here and there or dungeons to repeat 20 times to get something isnt fun to me. it isnt adding to the journey of my character its only adding to my character. although i may do the dungeons if i want the items its not fun. the dungeons are fun the first time, but if i have to do them 20 more times just to get something it becomes boring.

i cant speak for everyone, but to me its all about the journey and story and not about the stats on my characters weapons and armor. thats just an extra to do as i go on the journey. but as i said above if there was a story behind the legendarys or exotics ect… that im trying to get it would add more to it i think.

^^^ This