Guild Wars 2

Scryed.9423:

To the dude above me. You need to go back and play those games. I currently raid and play with friends in all of them, and in comparison to gw2 how it is now, vs last Oct the ‘grind’ you are talking about is 150% easier in wow etc, in fact its so easy that i geared up a brand new toon in full purple gear in heroic raiding in under one month and that was not playing more than twice a week. I haven’t been able to touch that here. So your comparison is bad since you obviously don’t play those games, you like to use as a comparison for what grind even means, and sit here and defend guild wars.
This game has way more of a grind than anyone wants to admit. You should just own up to it.

Yeah I read his long winded post. The Sixtheenth has some fairly significant miss conceptions about how math works and the current state in other games. In 2 months of casual play in WoW PvP. I can have All BiS for non rated players. If I get go for rating that season and get it the moment I get 2200 then I go get the rated weapon. It’s always entertaining to pick out the people that just babble about other games that really don’t have a clue about them.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

TooBz.3065:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

TooBz.3065:

Who cares if another game had grind? It’s the grind in this game that was being discussed.

For me, a long grind kills the game. I like playing different classes and different builds on those classes. Grindy BIS gear makes it so I don’t even want to get started trying something else out. There’s no way I’m going to get yet another set of ascended if I do like it. So why bother.

(Oh and I really appreciate the Karma nerf as well).

Don’t you read these forums? You don’t need ascended gear to enjoy any aspect of this game! Who cares if you’re getting stomped by people in full ascended which gives them a significant statistical advantage over you? LOL, this game isn’t about grinding or having he best gear! It’s about having fun!

LOL, you’re just stuck in the mindset ingrained in you by those other MMOs. Ascended gear doesn’t matter! LOL

Yep. Funny how half the forums say your a terrible gamer if you run with 1 piece of knights gear (it’s sub-optimal you know) and the other half insist that ascended gear doesn’t matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance

Heh, I haven’t even thought of that.

Not being geared optimally for PvE is made out to be a high crime because you’re not maximizing your damage while not being geared optimally for WvW is ok. Apparently because WvW, as I was informed earlier, isn’t really balanced around player statistics. Meaning it’s not really balanced around a certain subset of players doing significantly more damage. Bizarre!

It’s not significantly more damage, though. It looks significant on paper because it’s a percentage.

In practice the gear doesn’t carry you, and it certainly won’t determine the average outcome of a WvW match.

McSlappy.1372:

In WoW the 2200+ rated players had access to weapons that are only 5% above the non 2200 gear and it makes an enormous difference. People think it’s just a few % and they fail to realize how math and game mechanics work. Your hitting that % harder on your opponent meaning your doing damage that much faster. Your healing that extra but more. Your mitigating that much more damage. So when you add it all up that 5% really compounds to be about a 20% better character. So apply that to GW2 with what 8% you said? That’s simply HUGE.

WoW’s gear curve was exponential and the ability coefficients are much higher. Also, you can’t dodge or actively mitigate damage in WoW without barriers or healing. There are vast differences in the math and action of combat between the two games and to compare them directly using non-absolute numbers is intellectually dishonest.

In GW2, I can avoid large hits and tank light hits. If I do this better than my opponent, I can out damage him. If I out damage him, I win. This is the core of all GW2 combat.

My chances of winning are directly proportional to how good I am at avoiding getting hit by large attacks and controlling my opponent’s ability to use those attacks.

Because my skill can make my opponents damage “zero” for a large amount of time, gear is not nearly as significant as my class, build, and reaction time.

Skill > Gear

morrolan.9608:

Umut.5471:

All of grinding in this game is very easy except legendaries. You can craft an ascended instead if you just want the stats. Zero grinding = getting bored of the game in several weeks,

Whether its easy or not is irrelevant, its tedious and not good gameplay.

And like I said above, my best time in the game was largely before all this time gating and grind was introduced and I was able to experiment with characters and builds through the different parts of the game. When we have new content every 2 weeks why should we get bored?

Because living story content is boring, easy and not rewarding.
I can craft 4+ ascended weapons now with my current mats and gold, and i haven’t even grinded specifically for them.(won’t craft an ascended either) I’ve played in wvw, done achievements etc. gold and mats come without specifically grinding for them. And I can’t find an use for them. You obtain them as you play. I think we need harder grinding to keep players playing or many more players will quit and go to other mmorpgs. Don’t think only for yourself, many players want to grind at least at a moderate amount. We can see that many players quit the game and go to wow because this game is already so easy and bores players quickly because there’s no grinding or target other than legendary weapons. I don’t say that they have to add more vertical item grinding, but they can add something like a guildvsguild point system, honor system in pk areas, visible ranks more pk areas etc. It wouldn’t be an unbalancing grinding.

Xae Isareth.1364:

GettIng Dusk is purely a cosmetic thing. I don’t see why that’s different to what they promised.

Because up until recently didn’t it have better stats? That is not what they promised. Now that Ascended items can be crafted I don’t have a problem with it. I also didn’t have a problem playing WoW and giving Blizzard my money instead of AN the last year either till AN fixed stuff. Which I guess it good because it seems like with Season One starting this week I didn’t really miss much of anything. I was buying $20 a month in the gem store up until they brought out the Ascended nonsense. But now that it is fixed I am glad I wasn’t wasting my time with their game the last year. I’ll see how things are after Season One. If it seems to be worth continuing to play I’ll do so however I think I’ll get a full years worth of play time out of the game before I drop any more cash on it.

Smith.1826:

Vayne.8563:

Replace easy with fast, and I’d agree with you…because that’s what was going on.

You make a game. You spend five years and millions of dollars. The game is fun..but it doesn’t have the stickiness and poof, soon people are logging in less and playing other games. It’s okay if some people do it, but it’s a very annoying trend if too many people do it.

So you have a meeting and say, what can we do to fix this, fast. Most solutions take time to develop, in some cases LOTS of time. Sure you can add tons of new content…but that takes time. Sure you can throw a bunch of new skills/weapons/professions/races into the game, but that takes time.

In all likelihood, Anet mistook the numbers of people loggging out, but that doesn’t mean they didn’t need a quick solution. I’ve yet to see one quick solution suggested that could be implemented in a relatively fast time frame, while at the same time providing not that much risk.

I completly agree: it is absolutely one of the quickest things they could’ve implemented. That is because it is the easiest thing they could have implemented: Items with bigger numbers. And that’s the concern.

Instead of implementing ideas to increase replayability and variety into the game – things like difficulty settings, dungeon randomization, skill progression – they went the ‘quick and easy’ path of simple vertical progression.

In addition, I feel “time” isn’t as limiting a factor as it should be given the lack of a subscription. There’s no artificially induced sense of urgency, which I feel is the worst thing about a game with a subscription fee, especially with how the game will milk it from you through grindy timesinks.

If anything, I believe that introducing more vertical progression is much less a way to add longevity to the game and far more a means to increase real money transactions. This is the tried and completely true method of sustaining a free to play game. Even some WoW private servers make money off of it!

As you may’ve guessed, I have no issue with a subscription fee. I would gladly keep up with a subscription if what I was getting was more high quality and fun content. I’ve seen no game thus far that’s satisfied me as such, and just take advantage of my subscription fee instead.

This is what gets me the most. Because of being “free to play” but also “buy to play”, I had hoped to be free of being “nudged” into continuously funding their game, hoping that the only thing that made the game feel like an “MMO” was a persistent world. This may very well be the best attempt at an MMO in years, but even then I still feel that MMOs have a long way to go.

Maybe I’m just too optimistic. If their motivation was merely to get people playing and enjoying their game, I would gladly wait it out in order we got awesome content (“If you build it, they will come”!). I’d even throw down money for an expansion pack if I liked what I was seeing. But I certainly don’t like what I’m seeing now, and if they’re set on it, I see no reason why this “stat grind” would stop.

My take on it is this. They have more stickiness with the achievement point grind than they’ll ever get with gear grind. So they don’t need to keep doing that. At least that’s my hope.

Mackdose.6504:

Skill > Gear

I agree with the above. But in terms of active mitigation no not really. There are different mechanics yes but all classes in WoW have CC and defensive moves that allow you to remove incoming damage. Mage frezes, Hunter disorientates and traps & deterance, War stuns etc. The whole ohh I can dodge so this game is about player skill vs that game no lol that doesn’t work at all sorry keep trying. Oh hey that arcane mage is casting his huge nuke maybe I should feign death to dodge it. Basically the same thing.

Now that I think about it, wow thx for pointing this out. I’m actually now thinking there is more skill and strategy involved in the WoW PvP because you can see what they are casting and think about it. Okay he’s doing X but I know he can do Y which do blow my interrupt CC on.

But yes I do agree that skill is > gear. However while it happens most of the time in WoW. Just coming back to the game I really suck at GW2 pvp atm. I can and will beat better geared players left and right. However I don’t play and strive to beat players worse then me. I plan on challenging equal or better skilled players. When going up against another skilled player where your both playing your abilities against each other to near perfection then class balance, gear, and a bit of luck are the deciding factors.

I agree with the OP and others and there’s little I can say that hasn’t already be said.

Pox to ArenaNet for giving Ascended and Legendary items that eight per cent bonus. For those that say it doesn’t matter… for two equally skilled players it most certainly does. And just knowing that you don’t have BiS equipment can spoil one’s enjoyment of the game. Heck, folks whine because of clipping issues with armor and weapons.

GW1 had it right.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I chuckle at those that claim GW1 had ‘no’ gear progression. If that were the case boyos, then you wouldn’t have gotten ran to droks for ‘max armor’, you wouldn’t have ran from the market to KC for ‘max armor,’ you wouldn’t have seen people purchasing a ‘ferry’ to Docks. If there had been no gear progression you would have played the entire game in your starter armor, which had an armor rating of what 1? 5? I don’t recall at this point.

Most people didn’t go from starter armor to max armor though, they purchased the first tier, sometimes the second if they had the mats and the gold, usually the third, and finally the max. That’s still 4 tiers though.

GW1 did not have a lot of gear progression, nor was it very steep, but it was still there.

The key distinction is that GW1 had zero gear progression post max level gear at max level. This distinction allows Mike O to say that it had no vertical progression, “ever”. And, max level gear was easy to obtain, which is a distinctive of games which scale horizontally. GW1 was decidedly not about gear progression; it scaled horizontally, using skill progression as a primary element of character progression, along with cosmetic gear.

Raine.1394:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I chuckle at those that claim GW1 had ‘no’ gear progression. If that were the case boyos, then you wouldn’t have gotten ran to droks for ‘max armor’, you wouldn’t have ran from the market to KC for ‘max armor,’ you wouldn’t have seen people purchasing a ‘ferry’ to Docks. If there had been no gear progression you would have played the entire game in your starter armor, which had an armor rating of what 1? 5? I don’t recall at this point.

Most people didn’t go from starter armor to max armor though, they purchased the first tier, sometimes the second if they had the mats and the gold, usually the third, and finally the max. That’s still 4 tiers though.

GW1 did not have a lot of gear progression, nor was it very steep, but it was still there.

The key distinction is that GW1 had zero gear progression post max level gear at max level. This distinction allows Mike O to say that it had no vertical progression, “ever”. And, max level gear was easy to obtain, which is a distinctive of games which scale horizontally. GW1 was decidedly not about gear progression; it scaled horizontally, using skill progression as a primary element of character progression, along with cosmetic gear.

This was not the distinction being argued in this thread though. Yes, GW had no progression after the max cap, but it did not have ‘none at all.’ As I’ve said before, every game has some sort of gear progression, some sort of ‘getting stronger’ mechanism. The only difference is how steep, and when (if) it stops.

Technically speaking, so long as they do not add any further tiers beyond ascended, similar could eventually be argued here. Just depends on what happens in the future. I fully expect them to add infusions up to ascended level, I expect that as part of the ascended tier, but if they stop there then GW2 can be said to have no progression beyond that point as well. It’s the same difference.

Of course, a key difference between the GW1 playerbase and the GW2 playerbase, is that the people that stayed in GW1 did not ask for gear progression (at least no where near as loudly), we did for GW2, and Anet complied. The games are different animals, catering to different demographics.

McSlappy.1372:

Mackdose.6504:

Skill > Gear

I agree with the above. But in terms of active mitigation no not really. There are different mechanics yes but all classes in WoW have CC and defensive moves that allow you to remove incoming damage. Mage frezes, Hunter disorientates and traps & deterance, War stuns etc. The whole ohh I can dodge so this game is about player skill vs that game no lol that doesn’t work at all sorry keep trying. Oh hey that arcane mage is casting his huge nuke maybe I should feign death to dodge it. Basically the same thing.

Now that I think about it, wow thx for pointing this out. I’m actually now thinking there is more skill and strategy involved in the WoW PvP because you can see what they are casting and think about it. Okay he’s doing X but I know he can do Y which do blow my interrupt CC on.

But yes I do agree that skill is > gear. However while it happens most of the time in WoW. Just coming back to the game I really suck at GW2 pvp atm. I can and will beat better geared players left and right. However I don’t play and strive to beat players worse then me. I plan on challenging equal or better skilled players. When going up against another skilled player where your both playing your abilities against each other to near perfection then class balance, gear, and a bit of luck are the deciding factors.

Hmmm, hunter scatter-trap, I can see you’ve actually pvp’d in WoW. And, yes, cast bars would be a huge improvement to skilled play in GW2.

I’m going to qualify skill>gear for the purposes of this discussion. Skill is only a hypothetical in any discussion of power in a game. Power, on the other hand, is absolute. You may have seen the metric called PvP dummy. The idea is that with two players trading blows (i.e., skill is held equal), the one with the better gear will always win. This is simply so. When evaluating the effects of power it makes little sense to presuppose superior skill and much more sense to presuppose equal skill. Then you can see the actual effects of higher stats which dictate that stats do matter. And, it’s like walking into arenas in WoW in your fresh set of honor gear. Your first thought is to upgrade your gear so you don’t keep getting your kitten handed to you.

The easy skill>gear really doesn’t mean anything to an experienced gamer. Gear matters in a vertically progressing game and your first thought is always to acquire the gear necessary for the gear check.

Henri Blanche.8276:

I agree with the OP and others and there’s little I can say that hasn’t already be said.

Pox to ArenaNet for giving Ascended and Legendary items that eight per cent bonus. For those that say it doesn’t matter… for two equally skilled players it most certainly does. And just knowing that you don’t have BiS equipment can spoil one’s enjoyment of the game. Heck, folks whine because of clipping issues with armor and weapons.

GW1 had it right.

The thing with WvW and why I have an issue with people bringing up 1v1 as a legitimate concern is that this “problem” wasn’t a problem when exotics were the top, and every criticism levied at ascended is applicable, sans the time to attain the gear.

If you want a completely level playing field for PvP go play in SPvP. Why is 1v1 even being entertained as a thought?

Raine.1394:

McSlappy.1372:

Mackdose.6504:

Skill > Gear

I agree with the above. But in terms of active mitigation no not really. There are different mechanics yes but all classes in WoW have CC and defensive moves that allow you to remove incoming damage. Mage frezes, Hunter disorientates and traps & deterance, War stuns etc. The whole ohh I can dodge so this game is about player skill vs that game no lol that doesn’t work at all sorry keep trying. Oh hey that arcane mage is casting his huge nuke maybe I should feign death to dodge it. Basically the same thing.

Now that I think about it, wow thx for pointing this out. I’m actually now thinking there is more skill and strategy involved in the WoW PvP because you can see what they are casting and think about it. Okay he’s doing X but I know he can do Y which do blow my interrupt CC on.

But yes I do agree that skill is > gear. However while it happens most of the time in WoW. Just coming back to the game I really suck at GW2 pvp atm. I can and will beat better geared players left and right. However I don’t play and strive to beat players worse then me. I plan on challenging equal or better skilled players. When going up against another skilled player where your both playing your abilities against each other to near perfection then class balance, gear, and a bit of luck are the deciding factors.

Hmmm, hunter scatter-trap, I can see you’ve actually pvp’d in WoW. And, yes, cast bars would be a huge improvement to skilled play in GW2.

I’m going to qualify skill>gear for the purposes of this discussion. Skill is only a hypothetical in any discussion of power in a game. Power, on the other hand, is absolute. You may have seen the metric called PvP dummy. The idea is that with two players trading blows (i.e., skill is held equal), the one with the better gear will always win. This is simply so. When evaluating the effects of power it makes little sense to presuppose superior skill and much more sense to presuppose equal skill. Then you can see the actual effects of higher stats which dictate that stats do matter. And, it’s like walking into arenas in WoW in your fresh set of honor gear. Your first thought is to upgrade your gear so you don’t keep getting your kitten handed to you.

The easy skill>gear really doesn’t mean anything to an experienced gamer. Gear matters in a vertically progressing game and your first thought is always to acquire the gear necessary for the gear check.

So you’re saying that the skill of preventing your opponent from doing damage and avoiding damage doesn’t mean anything to an experienced gamer, and neither do builds, positioning, boons, conditions, or class.

And that’s just 1v1.

The problem with the PvE dummy metric is that it’s not applicable to real world conditions and as such, don’t tell the whole story.

They tell the story of higher numbers + 100% application of damage = Higher than lower rarity gear. Surely that’s correct.

But how often do you have 100% up time on a target in PvP?
Now take into account his class and build. Did the number change? Probably.
Now take into account his allies, if any. The number changed again.
Now take into account his control abilities. The number changes yet again.
Now take into account his dodges.

How much do you really gain from a 15% power increase when your damage up-time is the determining factor of a fight?

It’s not 15% I promise you that.

Raine.1394:

Hmmm, hunter scatter-trap, I can see you’ve actually pvp’d in WoW. And, yes, cast bars would be a huge improvement to skilled play in GW2.

The easy skill>gear really doesn’t mean anything to an experienced gamer. Gear matters in a vertically progressing game and your first thought is always to acquire the gear necessary for the gear check.

Yeah I do a lot of PvP in WoW. Some rated but mostly unrated do to time constraints of RL these days. You know those kittens in 5.4 took away Lip-shot(Silencing shot) and gave us an interrupt but global silence is gone. But anyways that is a discussion for a different forum all together.

But agree with most of what you said. I can take my non 2200 rated this season character and go up against a Glad in current season gear. Can I beat him sure. Is it gonna be hard you bet. Would it be a lot easier if I had 2200 gear this season too? Most definitely. The gear makes a difference. The question is how much and if it is enough to over come the other players relative skill.

On a side note that’s something I really wish this game had. I tend to do rated BGs and only do Arena when necessary for point caps. But this game has nothing really like the BG system. I’ve seen some people equate sPvP to BGs but just doesn’t have the same feel.

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

McSlappy.1372:

Mackdose.6504:

Skill > Gear

I agree with the above. But in terms of active mitigation no not really. There are different mechanics yes but all classes in WoW have CC and defensive moves that allow you to remove incoming damage. Mage frezes, Hunter disorientates and traps & deterance, War stuns etc. The whole ohh I can dodge so this game is about player skill vs that game no lol that doesn’t work at all sorry keep trying. Oh hey that arcane mage is casting his huge nuke maybe I should feign death to dodge it. Basically the same thing.

Now that I think about it, wow thx for pointing this out. I’m actually now thinking there is more skill and strategy involved in the WoW PvP because you can see what they are casting and think about it. Okay he’s doing X but I know he can do Y which do blow my interrupt CC on.

But yes I do agree that skill is > gear. However while it happens most of the time in WoW. Just coming back to the game I really suck at GW2 pvp atm. I can and will beat better geared players left and right. However I don’t play and strive to beat players worse then me. I plan on challenging equal or better skilled players. When going up against another skilled player where your both playing your abilities against each other to near perfection then class balance, gear, and a bit of luck are the deciding factors.

Hmmm, hunter scatter-trap, I can see you’ve actually pvp’d in WoW. And, yes, cast bars would be a huge improvement to skilled play in GW2.

I’m going to qualify skill>gear for the purposes of this discussion. Skill is only a hypothetical in any discussion of power in a game. Power, on the other hand, is absolute. You may have seen the metric called PvP dummy. The idea is that with two players trading blows (i.e., skill is held equal), the one with the better gear will always win. This is simply so. When evaluating the effects of power it makes little sense to presuppose superior skill and much more sense to presuppose equal skill. Then you can see the actual effects of higher stats which dictate that stats do matter. And, it’s like walking into arenas in WoW in your fresh set of honor gear. Your first thought is to upgrade your gear so you don’t keep getting your kitten handed to you.

The easy skill>gear really doesn’t mean anything to an experienced gamer. Gear matters in a vertically progressing game and your first thought is always to acquire the gear necessary for the gear check.

So you’re saying that the skill of preventing your opponent from doing damage and avoiding damage doesn’t mean anything to an experienced gamer, and neither do builds, positioning, boons, conditions, or class.

And that’s just 1v1.

The problem with the PvE dummy metric is that it’s not applicable to real world conditions and as such, don’t tell the whole story.

They tell the story of higher numbers + 100% application of damage = Higher than lower rarity gear. Surely that’s correct.

But how often do you have 100% up time on a target in PvP?
Now take into account his class and build. Did the number change? Probably.
Now take into account his allies, if any. The number changed again.
Now take into account his control abilities. The number changes yet again.
Now take into account his dodges.

How much do you really gain from a 15% power increase when your damage up-time is the determining factor of a fight?

It’s not 15% I promise you that.

No, I’m not saying that skill does not matter, simply that it is hypothetical and not relevant for a discussion of the effects of increasing power in a game. That is, the relative effects of skill in encounters will continuously change in PvP with each new encounter, while the effects of power will remain constant. And, in this sense, PvP dummy is the best way to understand the effects of relative power in PvP. In science, in order to understand the impact of a variable, you generally hold all other variables constant and change the one of interest. In this discussion, the relative power (or stats generally) of gear is under discussion. It makes no sense, whatsoever, to presuppose that superior skill will negate the effects of increased power. If you encounter someone of equal skill, 9 times out of 10 the one with the higher stats will win.

Mackdose.6504:

How much do you really gain from a 15% power increase when your damage up-time is the determining factor of a fight?

It’s not 15% I promise you that.

This seems pretty basic to me. u=Uptime you get 1.15u

Raine.1394:

Mackdose.6504:

Raine.1394:

McSlappy.1372:

Mackdose.6504:

Skill > Gear

I agree with the above. But in terms of active mitigation no not really. There are different mechanics yes but all classes in WoW have CC and defensive moves that allow you to remove incoming damage. Mage frezes, Hunter disorientates and traps & deterance, War stuns etc. The whole ohh I can dodge so this game is about player skill vs that game no lol that doesn’t work at all sorry keep trying. Oh hey that arcane mage is casting his huge nuke maybe I should feign death to dodge it. Basically the same thing.

Now that I think about it, wow thx for pointing this out. I’m actually now thinking there is more skill and strategy involved in the WoW PvP because you can see what they are casting and think about it. Okay he’s doing X but I know he can do Y which do blow my interrupt CC on.

But yes I do agree that skill is > gear. However while it happens most of the time in WoW. Just coming back to the game I really suck at GW2 pvp atm. I can and will beat better geared players left and right. However I don’t play and strive to beat players worse then me. I plan on challenging equal or better skilled players. When going up against another skilled player where your both playing your abilities against each other to near perfection then class balance, gear, and a bit of luck are the deciding factors.

Hmmm, hunter scatter-trap, I can see you’ve actually pvp’d in WoW. And, yes, cast bars would be a huge improvement to skilled play in GW2.

I’m going to qualify skill>gear for the purposes of this discussion. Skill is only a hypothetical in any discussion of power in a game. Power, on the other hand, is absolute. You may have seen the metric called PvP dummy. The idea is that with two players trading blows (i.e., skill is held equal), the one with the better gear will always win. This is simply so. When evaluating the effects of power it makes little sense to presuppose superior skill and much more sense to presuppose equal skill. Then you can see the actual effects of higher stats which dictate that stats do matter. And, it’s like walking into arenas in WoW in your fresh set of honor gear. Your first thought is to upgrade your gear so you don’t keep getting your kitten handed to you.

The easy skill>gear really doesn’t mean anything to an experienced gamer. Gear matters in a vertically progressing game and your first thought is always to acquire the gear necessary for the gear check.

So you’re saying that the skill of preventing your opponent from doing damage and avoiding damage doesn’t mean anything to an experienced gamer, and neither do builds, positioning, boons, conditions, or class.

And that’s just 1v1.

The problem with the PvE dummy metric is that it’s not applicable to real world conditions and as such, don’t tell the whole story.

They tell the story of higher numbers + 100% application of damage = Higher than lower rarity gear. Surely that’s correct.

But how often do you have 100% up time on a target in PvP?
Now take into account his class and build. Did the number change? Probably.
Now take into account his allies, if any. The number changed again.
Now take into account his control abilities. The number changes yet again.
Now take into account his dodges.

How much do you really gain from a 15% power increase when your damage up-time is the determining factor of a fight?

It’s not 15% I promise you that.

No, I’m not saying that skill does not matter, simply that it is hypothetical and not relevant for a discussion of the effects of increasing power in a game. That is, the relative effects of skill in encounters will continuously change in PvP with each new encounter, while the effects of power will remain constant. And, in this sense, PvP dummy is the best way to understand the effects of relative power in PvP. In science, in order to understand the impact of a variable, you generally hold all other variables constant and change the one of interest. In this discussion, the relative power (or stats generally) of gear is under discussion. It makes no sense, whatsoever, to presuppose that superior skill will negate the effects of increased power. If you encounter someone of equal skill, 9 times out of 10 the one with the higher stats will win.

Actually, a scientist would run 5v5 PvP matches about 100 times with the same players and same class comps but one with ascended versions to determine if gear had an effect.

Problem is, we’d have to do this for every class/build/comp to get the whole picture.

You don’t get accurate real-world performance by cutting out the real world, Raine.

McSlappy.1372:

Mackdose.6504:

How much do you really gain from a 15% power increase when your damage up-time is the determining factor of a fight?

It’s not 15% I promise you that.

This seems pretty basic to me. u=Uptime you get 1.15u

hahaha. Damage potential = p, uptime = u,

It’d correctly be p * u = answer.

P=(1.15+(Other buffs))u/D where D is the duration of the fight. Anyways if you really want to see how equations like this are done by people that really know their stuff you could see how WoW does it from the website www.elitistjerks.com. They do tons of theory craft and min maxing in WoW but I’m guessing the same type of models could be derived for this game if this game could hold their interest long enough.

McSlappy.1372:

P=(1.15+(Other buffs))u/D where D is the duration of the fight. Anyways if you really want to see how equations like this are done by people that really know their stuff you could see how WoW does it from the website www.elitistjerks.com. They do tons of theory craft and min maxing in WoW but I’m guessing the same type of models could be derived for this game if this game could hold their interest long enough.

I was going to do full notation, but I really don’t care. I was just correcting that P shouldn’t be added, but multiplied by u with u always equal to or less than 1.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Technically speaking, so long as they do not add any further tiers beyond ascended, similar could eventually be argued here. Just depends on what happens in the future. I fully expect them to add infusions up to ascended level, I expect that as part of the ascended tier, but if they stop there then GW2 can be said to have no progression beyond that point as well. It’s the same difference.

Of course, a key difference between the GW1 playerbase and the GW2 playerbase, is that the people that stayed in GW1 did not ask for gear progression (at least no where near as loudly), we did for GW2, and Anet complied. The games are different animals, catering to different demographics.

Ascended and infusions are a compromise between the GW system and the tier system employed in games like WoW. It remains to be seen whether the portion of the GW2 demographic that wants VP will be satisfied with only one tier plus infusions.

What saddens me is that HP was not given a fair chance to replace VP. The only prestige armors are the dungeon and racial sets. Exotic karma armor all has the same skin. The cosmetic HP options were nowhere near robust enough to stand in for the lack of a chase for higher stats. Maybe the new HP initiative (once it rolls out) will be, maybe not. If it isn’t, we’ll be back where we were last fall once people have Ascended armor on their main.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ascended and infusions are a compromise between the GW system and the tier system employed in games like WoW. It remains to be seen whether the portion of the GW2 demographic that wants VP will be satisfied with only one tier plus infusions.

My response to the WoW VP diehards would be “deal with it, or leave.” I hated the 3 month gear refresh with a passion.

Ascended filled a progression goal and works as a time sink and drip feed of stat increases.

What saddens me is that HP was not given a fair chance to replace VP. The only prestige armors are the dungeon and racial sets. Exotic karma armor all has the same skin. The cosmetic HP options were nowhere near robust enough to stand in for the lack of a chase for higher stats. Maybe the new HP initiative (once it rolls out) will be, maybe not. If it isn’t, we’ll be back where we were last fall once people have Ascended armor on their main.

I’m optimistic about the rewards, but I’m worried about how we’ll attain them.

IndigoSundown.5419:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Technically speaking, so long as they do not add any further tiers beyond ascended, similar could eventually be argued here. Just depends on what happens in the future. I fully expect them to add infusions up to ascended level, I expect that as part of the ascended tier, but if they stop there then GW2 can be said to have no progression beyond that point as well. It’s the same difference.

Of course, a key difference between the GW1 playerbase and the GW2 playerbase, is that the people that stayed in GW1 did not ask for gear progression (at least no where near as loudly), we did for GW2, and Anet complied. The games are different animals, catering to different demographics.

Ascended and infusions are a compromise between the GW system and the tier system employed in games like WoW. It remains to be seen whether the portion of the GW2 demographic that wants VP will be satisfied with only one tier plus infusions.

What saddens me is that HP was not given a fair chance to replace VP. The only prestige armors are the dungeon and racial sets. Exotic karma armor all has the same skin. The cosmetic HP options were nowhere near robust enough to stand in for the lack of a chase for higher stats. Maybe the new HP initiative (once it rolls out) will be, maybe not. If it isn’t, we’ll be back where we were last fall once people have Ascended armor on their main.

Like I said, it depends on what happens in the future.

Although, exotics are VP as well and required a certain amount of grind to obtain too. Yet nobody had an issue with that only because it was that way when the game launched. Exotics should have just been skins, since there are lvl 80 rares. There was no need to add higher stats to exotics, but they did, and very few groused about that, practically no one even bothered to mention that lvl 80 rares even exist (and can be crafted relatively easily or purchased from the TP and require no dungeon grind and no additional karma grind – you’d get plenty just leveling your character to purchase the insig).

Just sometimes its interesting to see how the masses will ignore 1 thing to shout down another, when they are essentially the same.

IndigoSundown.5419:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Technically speaking, so long as they do not add any further tiers beyond ascended, similar could eventually be argued here. Just depends on what happens in the future. I fully expect them to add infusions up to ascended level, I expect that as part of the ascended tier, but if they stop there then GW2 can be said to have no progression beyond that point as well. It’s the same difference.

Of course, a key difference between the GW1 playerbase and the GW2 playerbase, is that the people that stayed in GW1 did not ask for gear progression (at least no where near as loudly), we did for GW2, and Anet complied. The games are different animals, catering to different demographics.

Ascended and infusions are a compromise between the GW system and the tier system employed in games like WoW. It remains to be seen whether the portion of the GW2 demographic that wants VP will be satisfied with only one tier plus infusions.

What saddens me is that HP was not given a fair chance to replace VP. The only prestige armors are the dungeon and racial sets. Exotic karma armor all has the same skin. The cosmetic HP options were nowhere near robust enough to stand in for the lack of a chase for higher stats. Maybe the new HP initiative (once it rolls out) will be, maybe not. If it isn’t, we’ll be back where we were last fall once people have Ascended armor on their main.

I too was saddened by the fact that they didn’t use the call for VP as a teachable moment. That said, I was encouraged by the reference to ability/skill progression in Colin’s blog that was being put in place to give us something to do “instead” of grinding for power. I really don’t know what it means, but skill progression is a key element of horizontal progression and it could indicate a turnaround in design philosophy. One can hope.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

IndigoSundown.5419:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Technically speaking, so long as they do not add any further tiers beyond ascended, similar could eventually be argued here. Just depends on what happens in the future. I fully expect them to add infusions up to ascended level, I expect that as part of the ascended tier, but if they stop there then GW2 can be said to have no progression beyond that point as well. It’s the same difference.

Of course, a key difference between the GW1 playerbase and the GW2 playerbase, is that the people that stayed in GW1 did not ask for gear progression (at least no where near as loudly), we did for GW2, and Anet complied. The games are different animals, catering to different demographics.

Ascended and infusions are a compromise between the GW system and the tier system employed in games like WoW. It remains to be seen whether the portion of the GW2 demographic that wants VP will be satisfied with only one tier plus infusions.

What saddens me is that HP was not given a fair chance to replace VP. The only prestige armors are the dungeon and racial sets. Exotic karma armor all has the same skin. The cosmetic HP options were nowhere near robust enough to stand in for the lack of a chase for higher stats. Maybe the new HP initiative (once it rolls out) will be, maybe not. If it isn’t, we’ll be back where we were last fall once people have Ascended armor on their main.

Like I said, it depends on what happens in the future.

Although, exotics are VP as well and required a certain amount of grind to obtain too. Yet nobody had an issue with that only because it was that way when the game launched. Exotics should have just been skins, since there are lvl 80 rares. There was no need to add higher stats to exotics, but they did, and very few groused about that, practically no one even bothered to mention that lvl 80 rares even exist (and can be crafted relatively easily or purchased from the TP and require no dungeon grind and no additional karma grind – you’d get plenty just leveling your character to purchase the insig).

Just sometimes its interesting to see how the masses will ignore 1 thing to shout down another, when they are essentially the same.

In regards to grind and comparison of exotics then and ascendeds now… Personally, I didn’t mind exotics because firstly, there were so many ways to get them and secondly the requirements was not as horrifically tedious current ascended weapon crafting. For some stats, i could have multiple sources for them. Zerker stats for example, i can craft some with what few t6 blood i have, probably get another piece from Arah and a few more from CoF, and yet the ration of which source to get them is entirely up to me and what i enjoy. and failing even that, i could just do ANYTHING that gives money and buy some off the TP. I get them as I please and not funneled mandatorily into specific activities I dont want to.

generalraccoon.3857:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

IndigoSundown.5419:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Technically speaking, so long as they do not add any further tiers beyond ascended, similar could eventually be argued here. Just depends on what happens in the future. I fully expect them to add infusions up to ascended level, I expect that as part of the ascended tier, but if they stop there then GW2 can be said to have no progression beyond that point as well. It’s the same difference.

Of course, a key difference between the GW1 playerbase and the GW2 playerbase, is that the people that stayed in GW1 did not ask for gear progression (at least no where near as loudly), we did for GW2, and Anet complied. The games are different animals, catering to different demographics.

Ascended and infusions are a compromise between the GW system and the tier system employed in games like WoW. It remains to be seen whether the portion of the GW2 demographic that wants VP will be satisfied with only one tier plus infusions.

What saddens me is that HP was not given a fair chance to replace VP. The only prestige armors are the dungeon and racial sets. Exotic karma armor all has the same skin. The cosmetic HP options were nowhere near robust enough to stand in for the lack of a chase for higher stats. Maybe the new HP initiative (once it rolls out) will be, maybe not. If it isn’t, we’ll be back where we were last fall once people have Ascended armor on their main.

Like I said, it depends on what happens in the future.

Although, exotics are VP as well and required a certain amount of grind to obtain too. Yet nobody had an issue with that only because it was that way when the game launched. Exotics should have just been skins, since there are lvl 80 rares. There was no need to add higher stats to exotics, but they did, and very few groused about that, practically no one even bothered to mention that lvl 80 rares even exist (and can be crafted relatively easily or purchased from the TP and require no dungeon grind and no additional karma grind – you’d get plenty just leveling your character to purchase the insig).

Just sometimes its interesting to see how the masses will ignore 1 thing to shout down another, when they are essentially the same.

In regards to grind and comparison of exotics then and ascendeds now… Personally, I didn’t mind exotics because firstly, there were so many ways to get them and secondly the requirements was not as horrifically tedious current ascended weapon crafting. For some stats, i could have multiple sources for them. Zerker stats for example, i can craft some with what few t6 blood i have, probably get another piece from Arah and a few more from CoF, and yet the ration of which source to get them is entirely up to me and what i enjoy. and failing even that, i could just do ANYTHING that gives money and buy some off the TP. I get them as I please and not funneled mandatorily into specific activities I dont want to.

Thing is, making ascended easy to get defeats the point of their introduction. While I’m all for variety to get the items, they’ll always have high costs.

generalraccoon.3857:

In regards to grind and comparison of exotics then and ascendeds now… Personally, I didn’t mind exotics because firstly, there were so many ways to get them and secondly the requirements was not as horrifically tedious current ascended weapon crafting. For some stats, i could have multiple sources for them. Zerker stats for example, i can craft some with what few t6 blood i have, probably get another piece from Arah and a few more from CoF, and yet the ration of which source to get them is entirely up to me and what i enjoy. and failing even that, i could just do ANYTHING that gives money and buy some off the TP. I get them as I please and not funneled mandatorily into specific activities I dont want to.

Would ascended be as bad if it were available in all the same ways as exotics, just more expensive?

Would ascended have been viewed as poorly if the game had launched with it in place, including all its time gating and limitations?

The list of what ifs is a long one, I’ve only listed a couple. The fact still remains that exotics are VP. For those that don’t like dungeons, it was grindy to them. For those that never had the temples open, they had to go out of their way to find a place where they were. While you had no issue with the grind for exotics, others have no issues with the grind for ascended. VP existed before ascended, but the gripe was far less, people simply accepted it as part of the game.

The only valid complain here is the grind for ascended weapons, anet never said there won’t be any grind for gear, they just said there won’t be a grind for the best stat gear, which became a lie when ascended weapons came out, don’t complain about RNG in the mystic toilet or grind for cosmetic weapons, anet isn’t going to give everyone their free legendaries.

Bismuth.3165:

The only valid complain here is the grind for ascended weapons, anet never said there won’t be any grind for gear, they just said there won’t be a grind for the best stat gear, which became a lie when ascended weapons came out, don’t complain about RNG in the mystic toilet or grind for cosmetic weapons, anet isn’t going to give everyone their free legendaries.

By this thoughtline, it was a lie at launch. Exotics were a grind, not as much grind, but were still grind – for either karma, dungeon tokens, crafting materials, or gold (and gold was only viable if what you wanted was on the TP, which wasn’t always the case).

Umut.5471:

Because living story content is boring, easy and not rewarding.

Thats a problem with the living story content then and the solution is not to add an asc weapon grind but to improve the living story content.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

IndigoSundown.5419:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Technically speaking, so long as they do not add any further tiers beyond ascended, similar could eventually be argued here. Just depends on what happens in the future. I fully expect them to add infusions up to ascended level, I expect that as part of the ascended tier, but if they stop there then GW2 can be said to have no progression beyond that point as well. It’s the same difference.

Of course, a key difference between the GW1 playerbase and the GW2 playerbase, is that the people that stayed in GW1 did not ask for gear progression (at least no where near as loudly), we did for GW2, and Anet complied. The games are different animals, catering to different demographics.

Ascended and infusions are a compromise between the GW system and the tier system employed in games like WoW. It remains to be seen whether the portion of the GW2 demographic that wants VP will be satisfied with only one tier plus infusions.

What saddens me is that HP was not given a fair chance to replace VP. The only prestige armors are the dungeon and racial sets. Exotic karma armor all has the same skin. The cosmetic HP options were nowhere near robust enough to stand in for the lack of a chase for higher stats. Maybe the new HP initiative (once it rolls out) will be, maybe not. If it isn’t, we’ll be back where we were last fall once people have Ascended armor on their main.

Like I said, it depends on what happens in the future.

Although, exotics are VP as well and required a certain amount of grind to obtain too. Yet nobody had an issue with that only because it was that way when the game launched. Exotics should have just been skins, since there are lvl 80 rares. There was no need to add higher stats to exotics, but they did, and very few groused about that, practically no one even bothered to mention that lvl 80 rares even exist (and can be crafted relatively easily or purchased from the TP and require no dungeon grind and no additional karma grind – you’d get plenty just leveling your character to purchase the insig).

Just sometimes its interesting to see how the masses will ignore 1 thing to shout down another, when they are essentially the same.

My concern is when and if we start seeing more challenging/demanding and accessible content. Will it be balanced towards people in rares? If so, would being fully BiS result in an unsatisfying experience? On the other hand, the issues of having content “intended” for people in full ascended speaks for itself.

This isn’t to say I agreed with BiS acquisition prior to ascended – doing all of a dungeon’s paths rewarded enough for only one piece of armor (23 runs for a full set!!!) – I just feel as if they’ve worsened the issue, by a lot. Whether or nor they end it at ascended will remain to be seen, and I haven’t seen much that tells me they won’t.

Hopefully Vayne’s right: maybe the grinders will be happy with the AP hunt, but achievement points don’t make you kill things faster.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Although, exotics are VP as well and required a certain amount of grind to obtain too. Yet nobody had an issue with that only because it was that way when the game launched.

Wrong, I for one had a problem with obtaining exotics at launch (before karma jugs were added) and I know others did as well. However obtaining exotics at that point was not as bad as obtaining ascended now.

Smith.1826:

My concern is when and if we start seeing more challenging/demanding and accessible content. Will it be balanced towards people in rares? If so, would being fully BiS result in an unsatisfying experience? On the other hand, the issues of having content “intended” for people in full ascended speaks for itself.

This isn’t to say I agreed with BiS acquisition prior to ascended – doing all of a dungeon’s paths rewarded enough for only one piece of armor (23 runs for a full set!!!) – I just feel as if they’ve worsened the issue, by a lot. Whether or nor they end it at ascended will remain to be seen, and I haven’t seen much that tells me they won’t.

Hopefully Vayne’s right: maybe the grinders will be happy with the AP hunt, but achievement points don’t make you kill things faster.

BiS shouldn’t lead to a “satisfying” experience out side of getting the item.

The whole game needs to stay accessible, and Ascended gear already has fractal levels.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

generalraccoon.3857:

In regards to grind and comparison of exotics then and ascendeds now… Personally, I didn’t mind exotics because firstly, there were so many ways to get them and secondly the requirements was not as horrifically tedious current ascended weapon crafting. For some stats, i could have multiple sources for them. Zerker stats for example, i can craft some with what few t6 blood i have, probably get another piece from Arah and a few more from CoF, and yet the ration of which source to get them is entirely up to me and what i enjoy. and failing even that, i could just do ANYTHING that gives money and buy some off the TP. I get them as I please and not funneled mandatorily into specific activities I dont want to.

Would ascended be as bad if it were available in all the same ways as exotics, just more expensive?

Would ascended have been viewed as poorly if the game had launched with it in place, including all its time gating and limitations?

The list of what ifs is a long one, I’ve only listed a couple. The fact still remains that exotics are VP. For those that don’t like dungeons, it was grindy to them. For those that never had the temples open, they had to go out of their way to find a place where they were. While you had no issue with the grind for exotics, others have no issues with the grind for ascended. VP existed before ascended, but the gripe was far less, people simply accepted it as part of the game.

Just to put my two cents in. I think that Ascended would have been an issue if they were in the game from the start, but it would have been handled by changing player behavior. Fewer alts, fewer builds, etc…

Also, I think that people generally don’t want things given to them for free but enjoy a certain amount of work to get something. You feel like you are accomplishing something. The trick is that the reward has to be proportional to the effort.

Exotics are pretty good in this respect (or were b4 karma nerf). You could get an exotic weapon for about 4g or through crafting or dungeon runs. Generally, it would take 2-5 days to get one. When you got one, you felt closer to your goal.

However, for me the grind for ascended gear is disproportionate to the reward I get. When I make one I feel hollow, not happy. I wonder why I spent all that time / money / energy creating one. This indicates that, for me, ascended gear is too grindy.

The problem is not the introduction of ascended gear. It is the fact that ANet has stated that everyone, even the casuals should have the BiS gear.

They could have introduces ascended gear with better stats and made it easily accessible, or the same stats, just fencier, but hard to get.

They didn’t though. They made them better but available through grind (grinding fractals, grinding resources, etc.), which actually went against two advertised game pillars.

Grind is no fun.
BiS should be easily accessible by casuals.

Even if ascended gear had only 1 stat point more, it would still be the best gear in the game. I do no understand why people try to diminish this fact. Better gear is better.

Everyone was promised the best gear stat wise – for little effort.
This is not true, I am looking at you, ascended weapons.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

The problem is not the introduction of ascended gear. It is the fact that ANet has stated that everyone, even the casuals should have the BiS gear.

They could have introduces ascended gear with better stats and made it easily accessible, or the same stats, just fencier, but hard to get.

They didn’t though. They made them better but available through grind (grinding fractals, grinding resources, etc.), which actually went against two advertised game pillars.

Grind is no fun.
BiS should be easily accessible by casuals.

Even if ascended gear had only 1 stat point more, it would still be the best gear in the game. I do no understand why people try to diminish this fact. Better gear is better.

Everyone was promised the best gear stat wise – for little effort.
This is not true, I am looking at you, ascended weapons.

Applause!

morrolan.9608:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Although, exotics are VP as well and required a certain amount of grind to obtain too. Yet nobody had an issue with that only because it was that way when the game launched.

Wrong, I for one had a problem with obtaining exotics at launch (before karma jugs were added) and I know others did as well. However obtaining exotics at that point was nothing compared to obtaining ascended now.

Sorry, I shouldn’t have used ‘nobody,’ it’s never accurate. Very few had an issue with it, if more had had an issue with it, perhaps their voices would have been louder in opposing those that wanted more of it.

TooBz.3065:

Just to put my two cents in. I think that Ascended would have been an issue if they were in the game from the start, but it would have been handled by changing player behavior. Fewer alts, fewer builds, etc…

Also, I think that people generally don’t want things given to them for free but enjoy a certain amount of work to get something. You feel like you are accomplishing something. The trick is that the reward has to be proportional to the effort.

Exotics are pretty good in this respect (or were b4 karma nerf). You could get an exotic weapon for about 4g or through crafting or dungeon runs. Generally, it would take 2-5 days to get one. When you got one, you felt closer to your goal.

However, for me the grind for ascended gear is disproportionate to the reward I get. When I make one I feel hollow, not happy. I wonder why I spent all that time / money / energy creating one. This indicates that, for me, ascended gear is too grindy.

I don’t think it would have been anywhere near as much of an issue, if it had come with launch, and was available via more ways than just crafting.

Of course, if we continue to ask loud enough, we may yet get other ways of obtaining ascended. They have never said that crafting it would be the only way, only that it was how they were implementing it to begin with. However, I do not have a crystal ball. I am not clairvoyant by any means, so I honestly don’t know what will ‘definitively’ happen in the future. No one really can, not even Anet (cause you know what they say about the best laid plans…)

Mackdose.6504:

Smith.1826:

My concern is when and if we start seeing more challenging/demanding and accessible content. Will it be balanced towards people in rares? If so, would being fully BiS result in an unsatisfying experience? On the other hand, the issues of having content “intended” for people in full ascended speaks for itself.

This isn’t to say I agreed with BiS acquisition prior to ascended – doing all of a dungeon’s paths rewarded enough for only one piece of armor (23 runs for a full set!!!) – I just feel as if they’ve worsened the issue, by a lot. Whether or nor they end it at ascended will remain to be seen, and I haven’t seen much that tells me they won’t.

Hopefully Vayne’s right: maybe the grinders will be happy with the AP hunt, but achievement points don’t make you kill things faster.

BiS shouldn’t lead to a “satisfying” experience out side of getting the item.

The whole game needs to stay accessible, and Ascended gear already has fractal levels.

Agreed. Adding onto the vertical progression can be a big danger to that, though. And getting to the higher levels of FotM is an example of something that I feel isn’t that accessible.

I personally believe that GW2 is a pure grind game atm and yes, it does feel like a job, a daily inforced job in order to aquire anything slightly above average.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Although, exotics are VP as well and required a certain amount of grind to obtain too.

That statement would only be accurate, for me, if:

1) you defined the act of leveling a character as “grind.” By the time I reached level 80 I had acquired, through the act of leveling (basic playing through the content), sufficient in game currency to purchase exotics.

2) By, “certain amount of grind,” you meant zero grind.

It’s hard not to see GW2 as a Korean grind MMO when every now and then items drop with Korean text to remind you.

The reason people think the game has too much grind in it is because gw2 trivialized how you go about unlocking your skills and the fixed nature of weapon sets.

Ashen.2907:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Although, exotics are VP as well and required a certain amount of grind to obtain too.

That statement would only be accurate, for me, if:

1) you defined the act of leveling a character as “grind.” By the time I reached level 80 I had acquired, through the act of leveling (basic playing through the content), sufficient in game currency to purchase exotics.

2) By, “certain amount of grind,” you meant zero grind.

Except that when I hit level 80:

I had not done any dungeons = no tokens for armor. Dungeons generally aren’t my thing, so I don’t do them.

I had not been saving karma = not enough for a set, not to mention temples on AR are rarely open. I’d been spending right right along on cooking stuff, and leveling some of my armor pieces. Of course I don’t play hours and hours a day, nor did I always do dailies, so I did not have the huge cache of karma like so many. I would have needed to go farm karma, and then hunt down and open temple to purchase this set.

I had not been building my crafting along the way = I could not make my own set.

and I had all of 5 gold, which was not enough to purchase a full set (of exotics).

I do not consider the act of leveling a character to be grind, so do not stick words in my mouth. I find the act of leveling characters to be quite enjoyable and relaxing. However I rarely get even rares as drops. It wasn’t until my husband finished getting his tailor to 400 that I finally got max rares (too darn stingy to spend that much on the TP, I was doing just fine in my greens).

I have to laugh though, you assume that everyone plays like you, or plays as much as you therefore when they hit 80, they must be in the same boat. Which is not true.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I do not consider the act of leveling a character to be grind, so do not stick words in my mouth.

I put no words in your mouth.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I have to laugh though, you assume that everyone plays like you, or plays as much as you therefore when they hit 80, they must be in the same boat. Which is not true.

I made no such assumptions.

Did you perhaps accidentally respond to the wrong post ?

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Ashen.2907:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Although, exotics are VP as well and required a certain amount of grind to obtain too.

That statement would only be accurate, for me, if:

1) you defined the act of leveling a character as “grind.” By the time I reached level 80 I had acquired, through the act of leveling (basic playing through the content), sufficient in game currency to purchase exotics.

2) By, “certain amount of grind,” you meant zero grind.

Except that when I hit level 80:

I had not done any dungeons = no tokens for armor. Dungeons generally aren’t my thing, so I don’t do them.

I had not been saving karma = not enough for a set, not to mention temples on AR are rarely open. I’d been spending right right along on cooking stuff, and leveling some of my armor pieces. Of course I don’t play hours and hours a day, nor did I always do dailies, so I did not have the huge cache of karma like so many. I would have needed to go farm karma, and then hunt down and open temple to purchase this set.

I had not been building my crafting along the way = I could not make my own set.

and I had all of 5 gold, which was not enough to purchase a full set (of exotics).

You can get rares/exotics from:

-Dungeon vendors
-Karma
-Crafting
-Map exploration
-WvWing
-Doing world bosses gives you 1 rare guaranteed per boss killed
-Mystic forging junk drops (although admittedly, thats a bad one)
-Just as drops

I mean, they really can’t do more except just shoving it in your face.

Xae Isareth.1364:

You can get rares/exotics from:

-Dungeon vendors
-Karma
-Crafting
-Map exploration
-WvWing
-Doing world bosses gives you 1 rare guaranteed per boss killed
-Mystic forging junk drops (although admittedly, thats a bad one)
-Just as drops

I mean, they really can’t do more except just shoving it in your face.

In terms of exotics at launch each one of those methods was a grind in itself except for map exploration but then you would have to be very lucky to get the exotic you wanted for that.

McSlappy.1372:

Scryed.9423:

To the dude above me. You need to go back and play those games. I currently raid and play with friends in all of them, and in comparison to gw2 how it is now, vs last Oct the ‘grind’ you are talking about is 150% easier in wow etc, in fact its so easy that i geared up a brand new toon in full purple gear in heroic raiding in under one month and that was not playing more than twice a week. I haven’t been able to touch that here. So your comparison is bad since you obviously don’t play those games, you like to use as a comparison for what grind even means, and sit here and defend guild wars.
This game has way more of a grind than anyone wants to admit. You should just own up to it.

Yeah I read his long winded post. The Sixtheenth has some fairly significant miss conceptions about how math works and the current state in other games. In 2 months of casual play in WoW PvP. I can have All BiS for non rated players. If I get go for rating that season and get it the moment I get 2200 then I go get the rated weapon. It’s always entertaining to pick out the people that just babble about other games that really don’t have a clue about them.

I, too, usually find that it takes about 2 months in WoW for me to have a PvE and PvP set at the level I’m comfortable with. I don’t do heroic raids so gear out of LFR/normal raids and heroic dungeons is fine. And, for the most part, I’m fine with honor PvP gear just to have a set as I no longer do arenas.

And, I find that the short/steep power curve in WoW is actually easier than GW2’s long/low power curve. As mentioned, when a new tier drops in WoW I grind for a couple months and I’m done. The rest of the tier I can relax and play what I enjoy. With the long/slow grind of GW2 the grind is never over. That sword is always over your head—especially if you are an altoholic. One thing GW2 has taught me is that a short/steep power curve can actually be easier on you in terms of grindiness.

Raine.1394:

And, I find that the short/steep power curve in WoW is actually easier than GW2’s long/low power curve. As mentioned, when a new tier drops in WoW I grind for a couple months and I’m done. The rest of the tier I can relax and play what I enjoy. With the long/slow grind of GW2 the grind is never over. That sword is always over your head—especially if you are an altoholic. One thing GW2 has taught me is that a short/steep power curve can actually be easier on you in terms of grindiness.

While this is true, the problem with the short/steep power curve is that if you put down the game for any extent of time… the chances of you catching up to the current tier of content is pretty small. You simply don’t have the gear to complete the current level of content, and by the time you are, the bar has been raised (if not abandoned entirely by a new expansion).

You wouldn’t be able to step in a Tier 13 raid (or whatever the max level is), without at least getting a good helping from 12… which requires a heady amount from 11… and so on and so on.

And even IF Ascended is completely out of your reach, it’s not such a huge increase that even IF new content was scaled to it that it would be impossible to complete with a full set of Exotics (if not rares).

Not trying to say that EITHER method of vertical progression is inherently better; but that both have their problems. I personally would rather have the problem of never quite having “BiS” rather than having entire swaths of content beyond my reach.

Funset.7893:

Stop beating the dead horse, people. If you disagree with the direction that this game is taking, stop spending money on their cash shop, and stop login in. Honestly, this is the only way.

I have, but healthy feedback on what people like or dislike in the game is needed too, just because it bothers you, doesn’t mean people will stop saying what they believe right or wrong.

Your post gives little feedback and if everyone upset over the game did as you asked very little would be spent and very little would remain.