Guild Wars 2

This is not a thread complaining about Guards or Anet’s fixes. In fact, if Anet even reads this thread, I am not even trying to sound like many of the trait QQers out there. I’m just trying to point out a limit of the new trait setup and hope that it is something that is taken in consideration. When there are T3 traits that are lackluster, I am forced to take one of those traits, I cannot simply choose another T2 or T1 trait like we could in the old system.

New fix for the Guard was to temporarily disable symbolic avenger and I am OK with that. However I want to use the two other previous traits in that line too: Fiery Wrath , and Zealous Blades. That leaves me with two Grandmaster traits now Expeditious Spirit and Shattered Aegis. Both are not lucrative to me in the slightest. Since I am not taking spirit weapons (which I still don’t understand how they are useful in the slightest btw – it’s a garbage mechanic IMO) I’m left with the Aegis trait. That trait can be useful, but when I block an attack for damage is kind of unreliable, unless I use it with the shout: Retreat, but you removed Superior Aria too (and don’t get me started on that).

So what would be ideal for me with Symbolic Avenger disabled? I would double dip in T2. Since I am using radiance and have the minor trait that causes blindness, it would make sense to use both Zealous Blades (since I’m using GS) and Blinding Jeopardy. I know that by limiting one trait from each Tier makes thing much, much, much easier on your balancing/dev teams, but it limits us and removes creativity. There are so many times I have been trying to make new builds, and I find I’d like three lower tier options rather than the T3 options given to me. I understand that every skill has had careful considerations and testing, but some of your choices really make little or no sense. Maybe these skills are tested in environments that I don’t play in and then don’t see their full potential.

So, please consider, allowing us to choose multiple traits from lower tiers. Of course T3 would be limited to just 1 choice, but perhaps T2 gets up to 2 choices and T1 could get 3. It would restore some flexibility and creativity, while creating more work/frustrations on your balancing team I know. In an ideal world it would be nice to have more T1 and T2, but that would drive the OCD/symmetrically inclined people nuts, I know.

To the players: if you were not limited to 1 trait per tier, what would be your choices for your 3 traits and why? Knowing you could of course not choose more than 1 T3 trait.

TLDR of your post is “please consider, allowing us to choose multiple traits from lower tiers.”

I agree.

SonOfJacob.7396:

TLDR of your post is “please consider, allowing us to choose multiple traits from lower tiers.”

I agree.

I agree with the OP. Please let us select lower tier traits and place in higher tiers if we want like the old system.

One reason I left my previous MMO was because it went down the “dumb it down” route. GW2 was a breath of fresh air with the “Play it your way” style. I fear the “dumb it down” mentality is coming to this game now too.

Superior Aria still exists, it was bundled into Pure of Voice….

Same thing I’ve been pointing out with Mesmer. For some builds the adept and master traits are more interesting than the GM traits. The old system allowed for this, the new one does not.

As I move through reworking my old builds that’s what I find: If my build lines up with how ArenaNet grouped the traits I’m fine (better off actually). But if it does not – I cannot get that build back.

When I talk about my choices being restricted, this is what I mean.

You were all exploiting the bug and now crying because you can’t? live with it until Anet fixes the bug.

xbutcherx.3861:

You were all exploiting the bug and now crying because you can’t? live with it until Anet fixes the bug.

They’re saying the other two traits are woefully abysmal compared to the symbol trait. Which honestly they sound like it, one relies on spirit weapons ( ai so you know that’s gonna suck). The other relies on aegis, which I imagine is overwritten by another person aegis, rendering the trait useless. Nice on paper, not so much in real world application.

I agree that the choices are somewhat lackluster, but letting people choose 2 master traits or even 3 adept ones would defeat the whole purpose of the new system which is making you choose. You have to really give up on something, that’s what this system is all about: feel the weight of choice and be rewarded (or not) for it. As for the bug, well… it’s a bug and they happen (even more often in gw2 since there’s no testing server) and we have to wait till it’s fixed. Just be patient ’cause the system is working as intended =D

TheLastNobody.8319:

xbutcherx.3861:

You were all exploiting the bug and now crying because you can’t? live with it until Anet fixes the bug.

They’re saying the other two traits are woefully abysmal compared to the symbol trait. Which honestly they sound like it, one relies on spirit weapons ( ai so you know that’s gonna suck). The other relies on aegis, which I imagine is overwritten by another person aegis, rendering the trait useless. Nice on paper, not so much in real world application.

Which raises another question…. What makes some of these GM traits worthy of being a GM? The philosophy I’ve seen is that of the 3 GMs one is themed toward a weapon property, one toward a utility, and the third thrown in simply to have partial utility if they were only after a T2 trait.

There is a potential burst build with communal defense due to how that trait works… but its essentially 1 chain proc for an Aegis block, and requires you to trait fully into it. Though, this would make an interesting troll build with a group of guardians taking turns starting the proc chain.

starlinvf.1358:

TheLastNobody.8319:

xbutcherx.3861:

You were all exploiting the bug and now crying because you can’t? live with it until Anet fixes the bug.

They’re saying the other two traits are woefully abysmal compared to the symbol trait. Which honestly they sound like it, one relies on spirit weapons ( ai so you know that’s gonna suck). The other relies on aegis, which I imagine is overwritten by another person aegis, rendering the trait useless. Nice on paper, not so much in real world application.

Which raises another question…. What makes some of these GM traits worthy of being a GM? The philosophy I’ve seen is that of the 3 GMs one is themed toward a weapon property, one toward a utility, and the third thrown in simply to have partial utility if they were only after a T2 trait.

There is a potential burst build with communal defense due to how that trait works… but its essentially 1 chain proc for an Aegis block, and requires you to trait fully into it. Though, this would make an interesting troll build with a group of guardians taking turns starting the proc chain.

Sorry don’t really play a Guardian so your getting into foreign things with me, I mainly play necro or engi from time to time, need to make a guard though. Seem like fun.

But I do get where you’re coming from, necros have the same thing with foot in the grave and shroud mastery, giving us a 6 (potential) second stunbreak essentially…..and then there is dhuumfire -_- but this is about guardians so don’t let me derail ya!

What’s wrong with getting a bit of free damage every time your aegis pops?

It’s not like guardians have any shortage of aegis applications. In fact, shattered aegis can be quite powerful when it’s made the focus of a build.

I really like and support the Idea of the the new trait system. It’s just that in some situations it’s poorly done. But, to me GM/Master/Adept doesn’t matter, point is you get sets of 3. The problem is when one of those options just completely outshines the others such that there are little to no situations where you’d pick a certain trait. Retal on Aegis is one of those, and the Scepter trait is pretty much as well as Fiery Wrath will almost always be superior. Plenty of examples but too lazy to post them, but guard has quite a few.

xbutcherx.3861:

You were all exploiting the bug and now crying because you can’t? live with it until Anet fixes the bug.

Well, you’re crying because someone criticized Anet. So you fire up a post without even reading the OP.

As for the OP, Anet won’t allow using lower tier traits because that would allow more build options. As we’ve seen, they are extremely poor at balancing, so in their view, the fewer build options the easier to balance.

Ranatoa.4869:

Superior Aria still exists, it was bundled into Pure of Voice….

Holy Kitten batman! You’re right! I missed that completely! I feel better now taking shouts. Thanks!

Quarktastic.1027

What’s wrong with getting a bit of free damage every time your aegis pops?

It’s not like guardians have any shortage of aegis applications. In fact, shattered aegis can be quite powerful when it’s made the focus of a build.

On the face of it, nothing. But it’s something that should be baseline for aegis or tier one at best.

A bit of free damage when a defencive bubble is popped isn’t the sort of thing that has me saying, “Oh my god! How did I ever get on without this?”

Every grand master trait you have in every line should have you saying that. That’s when choosing them becomes a tough choice.

By and large the GM’s are in the same boat they were before these changes came. And this is for many classes, not just guardians.

You might have a single good GM trait in one line and that might follow to being the one good GM out of every two or three given trait lines.

Overall they’re rubbish, they feel throw away or placeholder- As though they needed something -anything- to set into the other GM slots beside them. If only to to have three things to click on when the new system was launched. That rather than any sort of placement commensurate to power or utility. The new specialisations system just feels rushed.

Adding insult to this is that we’re now beta testing them live and live gameplay is suffering for a lack of internal testing beforehand.

What – it would have taken five ANET employees five minutes in a dungeon to walk in with all guardians and parse symbolic avenger.

Bush league.

I would expect that the disable is temporary…

IndigoSundown.5419:

I would expect that the disable is temporary…

Radiant Retaliation was completely non-functional for 8 months, but when a really popular trait gets broken it gets fixed really fast.

Cool kids are broken.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I would expect that the disable is temporary…

So is HoM disable…

actually the aegis one is quite useful. I don’t use a hammer, so I use the aegis one myself. With the correct team setup or even solo, you can use that for spiking someone down.

Kythan Myr.4719:

This is not a thread complaining about Guards or Anet’s fixes. In fact, if Anet even reads this thread, I am not even trying to sound like many of the trait QQers out there. I’m just trying to point out a limit of the new trait setup and hope that it is something that is taken in consideration. When there are T3 traits that are lackluster, I am forced to take one of those traits, I cannot simply choose another T2 or T1 trait like we could in the old system.

New fix for the Guard was to temporarily disable symbolic avenger and I am OK with that. However I want to use the two other previous traits in that line too: Fiery Wrath , and Zealous Blades. That leaves me with two Grandmaster traits now Expeditious Spirit and Shattered Aegis. Both are not lucrative to me in the slightest. Since I am not taking spirit weapons (which I still don’t understand how they are useful in the slightest btw – it’s a garbage mechanic IMO) I’m left with the Aegis trait. That trait can be useful, but when I block an attack for damage is kind of unreliable, unless I use it with the shout: Retreat, but you removed Superior Aria too (and don’t get me started on that).

So what would be ideal for me with Symbolic Avenger disabled? I would double dip in T2. Since I am using radiance and have the minor trait that causes blindness, it would make sense to use both Zealous Blades (since I’m using GS) and Blinding Jeopardy. I know that by limiting one trait from each Tier makes thing much, much, much easier on your balancing/dev teams, but it limits us and removes creativity. There are so many times I have been trying to make new builds, and I find I’d like three lower tier options rather than the T3 options given to me. I understand that every skill has had careful considerations and testing, but some of your choices really make little or no sense. Maybe these skills are tested in environments that I don’t play in and then don’t see their full potential.

So, please consider, allowing us to choose multiple traits from lower tiers. Of course T3 would be limited to just 1 choice, but perhaps T2 gets up to 2 choices and T1 could get 3. It would restore some flexibility and creativity, while creating more work/frustrations on your balancing team I know. In an ideal world it would be nice to have more T1 and T2, but that would drive the OCD/symmetrically inclined people nuts, I know.

To the players: if you were not limited to 1 trait per tier, what would be your choices for your 3 traits and why? Knowing you could of course not choose more than 1 T3 trait.

I don’t see the flaw exposed in your argument. Anet disabling a buged trait has nothing to do with them splitting up traits into 3×3 tiers.

Now if the bug in Symbolic Avenger meant they had to disable all 3 GM traits, sure then you might have a point. But it doesn’t so your point is moot.

Also we are unfortuntaly still in a balance and bugfix phase (which is not desirable but to be expected after such a big patch/change). The fact that anet went out of their way to just deactivate the trait instead of just fixing it with the next content patch should show just how unbalanced and broken the trait was (still waiting on the engi grenade fix).

I play guardian as my main twink (and main dungeon/fractal runner for 50s) and I have to say, any player currently complaining about guardians state in the game should really take a step back. The class is already on the breaking pointof being totally unbalanced (FMW is way out there). If this small trait change gets you riled up, don’t be happy for the rebalance of some skills that are bound to happen.

EDIT: anet did actually disable the grenadier trait as well. going to keep the post as is since all it shows is them acting on game breaking things

Frankly the whole design of the zeal line is just sad.

You pretty much have to take a mace or hammer to make any good use out of it.

This is partially because of the minors and partially because the majors have a lack of real choice in them due to half or more of them sucking.

Really they just need to buff the crap out of the minors and swap them around with a few of the majors (which also need buffs) then swap around their placement a bit.

Cyninja.2954:

Kythan Myr.4719:

This is not a thread complaining about Guards or Anet’s fixes. In fact, if Anet even reads this thread, I am not even trying to sound like many of the trait QQers out there. I’m just trying to point out a limit of the new trait setup and hope that it is something that is taken in consideration. When there are T3 traits that are lackluster, I am forced to take one of those traits, I cannot simply choose another T2 or T1 trait like we could in the old system.

New fix for the Guard was to temporarily disable symbolic avenger and I am OK with that. However I want to use the two other previous traits in that line too: Fiery Wrath , and Zealous Blades. That leaves me with two Grandmaster traits now Expeditious Spirit and Shattered Aegis. Both are not lucrative to me in the slightest. Since I am not taking spirit weapons (which I still don’t understand how they are useful in the slightest btw – it’s a garbage mechanic IMO) I’m left with the Aegis trait. That trait can be useful, but when I block an attack for damage is kind of unreliable, unless I use it with the shout: Retreat, but you removed Superior Aria too (and don’t get me started on that).

So what would be ideal for me with Symbolic Avenger disabled? I would double dip in T2. Since I am using radiance and have the minor trait that causes blindness, it would make sense to use both Zealous Blades (since I’m using GS) and Blinding Jeopardy. I know that by limiting one trait from each Tier makes thing much, much, much easier on your balancing/dev teams, but it limits us and removes creativity. There are so many times I have been trying to make new builds, and I find I’d like three lower tier options rather than the T3 options given to me. I understand that every skill has had careful considerations and testing, but some of your choices really make little or no sense. Maybe these skills are tested in environments that I don’t play in and then don’t see their full potential.

So, please consider, allowing us to choose multiple traits from lower tiers. Of course T3 would be limited to just 1 choice, but perhaps T2 gets up to 2 choices and T1 could get 3. It would restore some flexibility and creativity, while creating more work/frustrations on your balancing team I know. In an ideal world it would be nice to have more T1 and T2, but that would drive the OCD/symmetrically inclined people nuts, I know.

To the players: if you were not limited to 1 trait per tier, what would be your choices for your 3 traits and why? Knowing you could of course not choose more than 1 T3 trait.

I don’t see the flaw exposed in your argument. Anet disabling a buged trait has nothing to do with them splitting up traits into 3×3 tiers.

Now if the bug in Symbolic Avenger meant they had to disable all 3 GM traits, sure then you might have a point. But it doesn’t so your point is moot.

Also we are unfortuntaly still in a balance and bugfix phase (which is not desirable but to be expected after such a big patch/change). The fact that anet went out of their way to just deactivate the trait instead of just fixing it with the next content patch should show just how unbalanced and broken the trait was (still waiting on the engi grenade fix).

I play guardian as my main twink (and main dungeon/fractal runner for 50s) and I have to say, any player currently complaining about guardians state in the game should really take a step back. The class is already on the breaking pointof being totally unbalanced (FMW is way out there). If this small trait change gets you riled up, don’t be happy for the rebalance of some skills that are bound to happen.

EDIT: anet did actually disable the grenadier trait as well. going to keep the post as is since all it shows is them acting on game breaking things

The point of my argument is that sometimes you don’t want the T3 trait because it doesn’t fit was well as taking a second T2 or T1 trait. As it stands right now you can only take 1 T1, 1 T2, and 1 T3. What if the available choices between the 3 traits of each tier don’t fit with your playstyle and seems inefficient/unoptimal? You are basically shoe horned into something less than ideal and that stinks. Temporarily removing one of the T3 traits only highlighted that problem because now you only had 2 choices of T3 which doesn’t fit as well my first two selected T1 and T2 traits. Taking a second T2 trait IMO would have been better than taking any of the left over T3 traits. Sure I can do that and move on, but why?

Since the game launched that has always been an option, and now we have less choices and not everything seems to make sense. Sure the new system is pretty and streamlined and it’s cool little sounds and graphics of streaming whatever is nice eye-candy. But at the end of the day I want my build to be traits that blend well together and not be how about how visually, symmetrically even it looks.

To me it’s more of a problem that the grandmaster traits aren’t desirable. I don’t play guardian but looking at your grandmaster options, they’re all pretty weak and that is just lame.

Khristophoros.7194:

To me it’s more of a problem that the grandmaster traits aren’t desirable. I don’t play guardian but looking at your grandmaster options, they’re all pretty weak and that is just lame.

Ok, I’ve thought pretty much the same too, but I thought it was just me. Maybe I don’t see the potential. But then, Dragonhunter also seems kinda, well you know….. Maybe there’s no Guardian love anymore. Trying to look on the bright side, Guard is still a good class to bring in any group, right?

Also this brings up a valid question. I’ve been using the Tier 1 -3 naming because I thought they did away with the whole Adept, Master, Grandmaster thing, am I wrong? I don’t mind using it because it’s the old way and at the moment most people know what that means. If they are stilled called that, I’d like to know because I don’t want to sound even more of an idiot.

misterdevious.6482:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I would expect that the disable is temporary…

Radiant Retaliation was completely non-functional for 8 months, but when a really popular trait gets broken it gets fixed really fast.

Cool kids are broken.

Yes, because nonfunctional is entirely equivalent to “super”-functional.

SonOfJacob.7396:

TLDR of your post is “please consider, allowing us to choose multiple traits from lower tiers.”

I agree.

I’m on the fence about this.

There’s no denying that the game’s had various balance issues since launch. This change should make balance more achievable (fewer variables) and allow the devs to improve class balance over all. If that actually happens then I’m OK with the change. If not, then we’ve lost build diversity for nothing.

Either way, I judge there’s no chance they will reverse the decision. It’s too integral to the introduction of future content & changes.

GreyWraith.8394:

SonOfJacob.7396:

TLDR of your post is “please consider, allowing us to choose multiple traits from lower tiers.”

I agree.

I’m on the fence about this.

There’s no denying that the game’s had various balance issues since launch. This change should make balance more achievable (fewer variables) and allow the devs to improve class balance over all. If that actually happens then I’m OK with the change. If not, then we’ve lost build diversity for nothing.

Either way, I judge there’s no chance they will reverse the decision. It’s too integral to the introduction of future content & changes.

It changed how we select traits, not the reason we want them. The weapon related traits are in need of more refinement, as right now its assumed that no one wants to run a hybrid build.

I wonder if it would be of any benefit to have a Martial Specialization line just to house a set of weapon traits.

I’m not sure if the problem is so much “There are not enough choices per trait tier” as it is “the other two trait choices are just terrible beyond 1-2 specific scenarios/builds.”

I main Engineer, and before the patch, when it came to Explosives, you either put in 4 points for Forceful Explosives and IP, 6 points for Shrapnel, Explosive Powder, and Grenadier, 6 for Shrapnel, IP, and Grenadier, or all your points into other trait lines. While there might have been something like a thousand different trait combinations for that one trait line, the 3 possible combos I’ve mentioned were the only ones that the vast majority of Engineers ever did when putting any points into explosives.

I mean, you can ask for that level of option again, but it isn’t going to help with build diversity if there is still only one or two “real” possibilities for that line.

This is an excellent thread!

Removing modularity of traits (ex shouts 20% cooldown, shouts heal etc) was a bad idea. Now, if something breaks entire builds are scrapped and put on hold because all old traits are bundled into one broken trait.

At least before some parts of your build would be still functional and you could substitute broken traits with something else in the same vein with your build. Now you’re presented the other two choices that probably have nothing to do with your build.

Take for example falling damage reduction traits. To get it you now need to remove entire trait line you desire just to get that one trait. Previously you’d just need to take away 2 points and invest into it for a short time.

As much as I have sympathy for new system over previous iteration, I think there was nothing wrong with the system we had at release! Conceptual cracks will surface more and more and it will hopefully dawn on Anet why is it bad to have such restrictive systems.

Zergs.9715:

This is an excellent thread!

Removing modularity of traits (ex shouts 20% cooldown, shouts heal etc) was a bad idea. Now, if something breaks entire builds are scrapped and put on hold because all old traits are bundled into one broken trait.

At least before some parts of your build would be still functional and you could substitute broken traits with something else in the same vein with your build. Now you’re presented the other two choices that probably have nothing to do with your build.

Take for example falling damage reduction traits. To get it you now need to remove entire trait line you desire just to get that one trait. Previously you’d just need to take away 2 points and invest into it for a short time.

As much as I have sympathy for new system over previous iteration, I think there was nothing wrong with the system we had at release! Conceptual cracks will surface more and more and it will hopefully dawn on Anet why is it bad to have such restrictive systems.

The difference is they merged concurrent traits and got rid of unused traits. Also, shouts never healed. Frankly the old system was far more restrictive than the one we have now. Take guardians and their Writ trait. One trait for 3 effects. Previously it was symbols either healed, lasted longer, OR were bigger. Now it’s either Writ or Force of Will as the choice because I no longer need to burn out other options just for Symbols to be stronger.

Second, the fall damage traits are the worst example you could have chosen. Just like before the change, many people only need to change that trait spot, not the entire line.

Your not complaining about anything new. Build diversity is dead, this is one of the many reasons why. Anet only wants you to have 1-3 viable builds per class so they can easily keep the hats on everything and keep crap ballanced.

They arent going to let you double dip, because that gives people more diversity, and thusly is more work for them to worry about balancing.

Its the reason the game is spiraling down the WoW drain.

There are different solutions to the stated problem, which seems to be:

• Some GM traits are lackluster
• Some non-GM traits seem preferable.

Every class has this problem.

But given he existing poser creep issue, opening up the trait lines would just make it worse.

Sube Dai.8496:

Every class has this problem.

But given he existing poser creep issue, opening up the trait lines would just make it worse.

I dont think you’re using the term “power creep” correctly at all, or know what it means. WoW has power creep, EVE has power creep. GW2 doesnt.