Guild Wars 2

This has come up in numerous other topics, but I don’t think there’s been a topic devoted to this yet. I’m sure you’re aware of it one way or another at this point: Either you are part of a server that just seems dead, or you’re part of one of the servers that is so overstuffed that your overflow’s overflow has an overflow. This is bad on both sides of the coin, especially given the scope and difficulty of the new encounter. Let’s look at this from both perspectives:

Low Population Servers: Low-pop servers are not inherently bad. I enjoy being native to one since it means that I know more people from my server and recognize names more often- it’s like living in a small town, walking down the street, and recognizing a fair portion of people, and this is fine for most content. Dungeons take 5 people, and are inherently cross-server through LFG, and most world bosses are doable with a group of 15+ fairly decent players, which is more than enough for any guild to muster. If you have significantly more than 15 people, the boss scales up (albeit poorly), and at least puts up some semblance of a fight. It’s not difficult content, but it serves its purpose.

Mega-encounters are where it becomes difficult. Sure, when the content is first released, you can get a fair showing out of your server (maybe 80-90 people show up to see the new stuff), and that’s enough to make an attempt and see the mechanics, but after that initial attempt people guest to other servers where there are more people so that they have a higher success chance. As people leave, the low-pop servers’ population for these events plummets, and it becomes a waste to even show up to these events. These events don’t scale, so the 30-40 people who might stick around quickly see how pointless it is, so even these people have to either give up or also guest away. While this does hurt a server’s morale and break the community, it doesn’t block off content because guesting lets you experience it on another server, but this also has consequences to the larger servers.

High Population Servers: Discounting guesting, higher population servers would have plenty of people to attempt mega-events, and would undoubtedly kill them eventually, but guesting complicates this. The refugees from the low-population servers are looking for places that they can enjoy the content, so they flood these servers. The main maps become full and overflows are formed, then the overflow becomes full and another overflow is formed…and then that overflow becomes full as well, and so on.

This appears to be okay at a glance. Maps are filling, there are plenty of people in each map to try the mega-encounter, and everything is good. But then you realize that these maps aren’t typically populated with people who know each other. They are populated with random people from any number of servers and guilds who have never met, and once the map is hard-capped, friends are left outside of the map, splitting friends and guilds. The group tries to fight the encounter and gives a good show of it. They learn personally from the fight, but here’s the kicker: because of the way overflow is designed, this group will not be matched together again. The group will go their separate ways until the next boss encounter where they will find themselves in a different overflow with a different group who has not had the same experience and the same shared opportunity to learn. It removes the sense of community, and creates this feeling of a great big ‘other.’ Comments like "I hope our group is good this time’ or “These guys don’t know what they’re doing” run rampant because people don’t know each other. The natural server communities are gone, so it’s like walking into a region-wide potluck where you don’t know who you’ll end up with, and people feel alienated.

There are ways around this, but each one has baggage:
1. You could join a mega-guild like TTS. The problems here include the built-in limitation on size of a guild, the time commitment that such a guild requires, and the representation requirements of such a guild in conjunction with a smaller guild that the player is already a part of, and probably does not want to abandon.
2. You can try to teach your group the mechanics…every time. Complications here include the propensity for people to not listen, and the high chance for people to not understand. It also doesn’t help that all of your efforts feel wasted when your group fails, since you’ll inevitably need to explain it all over again.
3. You can try to piggy-back on a mega-guild. Consequences here include inconveniencing the mega-guild by taking up space and being less coordinated than them, finding the mega-guild’s overflow in the first place, and just feeling wholly unsatisfied when you finish because it was their achievement…not yours.

Something is wrong here, and it all comes back to two factors:
1. Guesting leads to a zerging mindset where 3-4 servers in a region are the place to go for large-scale content.
2. The open-world nature of events means that cross-server matchmaking is impossible.

Without changing one of these, I do not see the situation improving. Either we remove or limit guesting to keep people on their native servers, or we remove mega-encounters from the open-world and implement a complex matchmaking system that fosters communities outside of the server communities for major events. The other option is to leave things as they are, which, as we’ve seen, is not what most players want.

Consider the following:
1) Guesting: During a servers quiet period (non-prime time) it is necessary to have guesters to ensure that an event can be completed properly.

I do not support removal of the guesting option.
Guesting is already limited to 2-servers in a period of 24 hrs.

If the pro of lower-population server is you know/recognize people, then the con of high-population server is you don’t. I’m not sure what the difference of being placed in overflow is, then. With high-population, you get different groups each time for doing Mega-events…same with overflows.

I am not sure limiting guesting even more is a solution, though I don’t know what might be the solution, or if a solution is warranted.

Removing, or even limiting, guesting is not a viable option. Either would have a terrible effect on the community.

It would create haves and have-nots. Certain content would only be doable by a percentage of the population and the disparity between how the game plays between servers would grow as more and more people transfer to the same 3-4 servers.

What we need is a rework of the way overflows works – with a lot more transparency and player control. We should be able to choose the overflow (or underflow, which I think is just as important for low pop servers) we go to – possibly picking from a drop down list that shows the following:

1. how many people are on that overflow/the population cap (so 75 of 200, similar the way it works in spvp).

2. How many people from our friends list are on that server.

3. How many of our guildmates are on that server.

This would let people organize and run large scale activities with their guild or friends and it would let people on any server organize large scale community activities.

This one change would bring the community together in a way that could redefine how we play large events in the game.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

If the pro of lower-population server is you know/recognize people, then the con of high-population server is you don’t. I’m not sure what the difference of being placed in overflow is, then. With high-population, you get different groups each time for doing Mega-events…same with overflows.

I am not sure limiting guesting even more is a solution, though I don’t know what might be the solution, or if a solution is warranted.

Realize you are referencing the OP, just wanted to state that a high pop server does not mean there is not a real sense of community and a recognition of many of the guilds and players there.

After playing on BG since release, there are huge numbers of players and guilds I know from time spent in LA, QD and FG champ trains, zone bosses, the dragonite loop in Orr zones. And more importantly WvW. BG has a community that supports each other in both PvE and WvW and a lot of that overlaps.

I know we are not the only high pop server that does this.

We may get different groups, but a lot of them are folks we’ve worked with before on multiple “battlefronts”.

Guesting is a good option…. it has negative tradeoffs when it comes to meta events.

“Correcting” the guesting mechanics to prioritze server natives over first come first serve might help.

Mostly, I sit in the “scale the meta event” camp. However, I believe this flies in the face of an unstated philosophy that basically says these events are meant to be challenging, meant to be hard and not something that ought to be accomplished by a small group of people.

I am not sure what the solution is either. Currently, I think the problem has too many constraints, including the philosophy behind the concept versus actual execution in reality.

It’s undesirable indeed for high pop servers since it makes it really difficult getting our guildies and friends into the main instance. Hardcap for Bloodtide Coast appears to be around 150 and we usually get 100-120~ into our teamspeak, so the margin of error can be quite high due to the people not in teamspeak, despite spamming the details in mapchat every 10 seconds.

I’ve had 3 failed attempts on wurm so far due to a failure on communication (people not on teamspeak). Few fail attempts were simply down to not-perfect execution, and even then, can be attributed to the people not on teamspeak (not switching targets, staying behind etc.)

I would rather daily guesting be removed altogether and make it a once-a-week option. Especially on NA servers, where all servers have a decent population, but most guest to Jade Quarry, Blackgate, Sanctum of Rall or Tarnished Coast to do PvE content. It would help bump the native populations up again for sure, I think.

I’m pretty sure all servers can muster up a group of 150 for a daily or weekly event for these kind of bosses. And especially if its within your own server, you’ll more likely be able to get participation within your VOIP of choice and thus have a higher chance at victory.

Reverence.6915:

It’s undesirable indeed for high pop servers since it makes it really difficult getting our guildies and friends into the main instance. Hardcap for Bloodtide Coast appears to be around 150 and we usually get 100-120~ into our teamspeak, so the margin of error can be quite high due to the people not in teamspeak, despite spamming the details in mapchat every 10 seconds.

I’ve had 3 failed attempts on wurm so far due to a failure on communication (people not on teamspeak). Few fail attempts were simply down to not-perfect execution, and even then, can be attributed to the people not on teamspeak (not switching targets, staying behind etc.)

I would rather daily guesting be removed altogether and make it a once-a-week option. Especially on NA servers, where all servers have a decent population, but most guest to Jade Quarry, Blackgate, Sanctum of Rall or Tarnished Coast to do PvE content. It would help bump the native populations up again for sure, I think.

I’m pretty sure all servers can muster up a group of 150 for a daily or weekly event for these kind of bosses. And especially if its within your own server, you’ll more likely be able to get participation within your VOIP of choice and thus have a higher chance at victory.

That’s the thing. You limit it to once a week and what do people do if at launch their friends had to end up on another server and can’t afford to switch? Do you doom those friends to only be able to play together once a week? Just because of a few events that scale poorly if there aren’t 80+ people around?

The solution is NOT to mess with guesting. The solution is to make these events scale better for when there aren’t a bunch of people there. Those that guest to do the events hate the fact that they have to go sit in the map for an hour or longer to ensure their spot just as much as the non-guest. But when you only have a few hours to play and want to do the large events and succeed, you have no choice but to go to a server that has the best chances of having the population needed to succeed. Because if you don’t have the minimum population present, no amount of coordinatin will let you win.

I think I agree with those who say that guesting needs to stay- its pro outweigh the cons from what I’ve seen.

The two main suggestions thus far have been to adjust scaling and revamp the overflow system; both of these have merit.

Overflow Revamp: By changing overflow to show the number of people already there before phasing in, people can know what they’re getting into before they warp in, and help to get their full group in on the event. Perhaps we could have the over-full servers’ overflows connect back to the more empty servers’ main maps? This would help fill the empty servers somewhat. The downside is that we would still undoubtedly have empty maps on many servers, and hostility could break out when a large guild or group claims ‘ownership’ of an overflow.

Scaling: If scaling happens, it would have to be delicately done so as not to trivialize the content. If an event is allowed to scale too low (say, 5 people at each of the jungle worm’s heads) it would easier to coordinate, and probably lead to people preferring small groups. I think that scaling can be done right, maybe capping in the ballpark of 40-50 people. The mechanics, and the number of adds would need to be scaled back (something like requiring 10 or 15 barrels instead of 20 at Cobalt, and removing some of the eggs and husks, for example). There would probably also need to be significant health scaling, but that is just a numbers game, which shouldn’t be altogether too difficult.

I like the constructive thinking in this thread so far. What about these ideas do you like/not like?

Perhaps there are a couple of answers:

A mega guild should have the ability to “buy” a zone instance for the world event, inviting who they want. It should not be cheap, whether in guild influence or cash, but relative to the resources of a mega guild affordable.

(I won’t benefit from this, I am in a 4 person guild which is in its 8th game or so together, and we won’t change for a game. ’nuff said.)

Agreed we need more control over who is in what overflow

Ive done scarelet 5 times now, 4/5 times were on an overflow after failing to get into JQ Main Lornars Pass. 4/5 Overflows 2/5 chains were severed leading me to bevlieve alot of work had to be done before we would be ablt to sucees. However I guested over to Yaks Bend 10 minuites before, they had no overflow but had organized commanders. We made it to 4/5 chains severeed, the fartehest i hadd ever come without needed an overflow. So It not in yout best effort to guest to BG/TC/JQ BUT THINK outside the box and goto a small organied server and you migjht see your chances raisel

Seera.5916:

That’s the thing. You limit it to once a week and what do people do if at launch their friends had to end up on another server and can’t afford to switch? Do you doom those friends to only be able to play together once a week? Just because of a few events that scale poorly if there aren’t 80+ people around?

There’s a thing called server transfer. If you can’t guest to be with your friends, transfer servers. It doesn’t cost much. Maybe 2 weeks max of doing dungeons to convert gold to gems.

Seera.5916:

The solution is NOT to mess with guesting. The solution is to make these events scale better for when there aren’t a bunch of people there. Those that guest to do the events hate the fact that they have to go sit in the map for an hour or longer to ensure their spot just as much as the non-guest. But when you only have a few hours to play and want to do the large events and succeed, you have no choice but to go to a server that has the best chances of having the population needed to succeed. Because if you don’t have the minimum population present, no amount of coordinatin will let you win.

Every single server has the population for these events. No matter how small your population is. It doesn’t take that many people (150) to hardcap a map. Your server has to be willing to coordinate on its own rather than piggyback on another server/guild’s coordination.

These events aren’t for everyone. If you’re not willing to be in Teamspeak/Ventrillo/Mumble etc., the way I see it, you shouldn’t be on the instance where the group is trying to complete the boss fight. It’s really easy to get 20 people in an overflow to decapitate 1 wurm or complete 1 marionette path and get the basic rewards. If you want to actually complete it, you’ll need to put effort in.

I’m not sure that I would be able to tell who, out of 150 people, was on Teamspeak and who was not. Does something special mark these people? How would I know the person that didn’t switch targets, or stayed behind was, or was not, on Teamspeak? Geez, when I am doing an event, I don’t spend that much time keeping track of what each and every other person is doing, or not doing. And even if I could, I don’t think I could remember each character name, and, while in the middle of the event, check whether they were on Teamspeak or not, out of…say…the other 100? 120? 85? 50? people who were on Teamspeak.

One shouldn’t need 3rd party programs to play a game.
If the game requires this to make the game playable then it should be built into the game or else this type of content is not really in step with the game is it?

You can identify people that are not in teamspeak by just asking “Do x if you are in TS” and check who does your instructions or not. It is not hard, right?

One shouldn’t need 3rd party program, I agree. But you must use it, because ANet did not put any voice chat in its game. So instead of whining “i dont wanna install programs to my computer to play a game” just google Teamspeak and install it. It will take less time to install it than whining in forums. Also believe me, installing teamspeak or another program won’t kill you. Also, when we start to defeat wurm more and more, people will memorize tactics. Eventually you won’t use TS after a while. If you want an example, just look at Teqila. You don’t even need any commenders to kill that winged lizard anymore because players learned how to defeat it.

Also, LIMIT guesting to high populated servers please. It is 10 am in my country and both Lornar Pass and Bloodtide Coast have overflows. Remove those guests from my server.

Identifying someone on Teamspeak isn’t the issue. Watching all 100 people or however many people are on Teamspeak during an event is what is at hand. You can’t guarantee someone that is on Teamspeak is a better player, or will execute whatever isn’t relayed through mapchat.

Issuing instructions, no matter the venue, does not guarantee performance during a hectic event. I’m not sure telling 5 people to run to lane 4, whether in mapchat or on Teamspeak will actually result in only 5 people running there. There may be 5, there may be 15, there may be none.

You can’t really know what each and every person is doing during an event, whether they are on voice chat or not. The only people that might be able to do that, are those collecting metrics for the event.

Reverence.6915:

Seera.5916:

That’s the thing. You limit it to once a week and what do people do if at launch their friends had to end up on another server and can’t afford to switch? Do you doom those friends to only be able to play together once a week? Just because of a few events that scale poorly if there aren’t 80+ people around?

There’s a thing called server transfer. If you can’t guest to be with your friends, transfer servers. It doesn’t cost much. Maybe 2 weeks max of doing dungeons to convert gold to gems.

Seera.5916:

The solution is NOT to mess with guesting. The solution is to make these events scale better for when there aren’t a bunch of people there. Those that guest to do the events hate the fact that they have to go sit in the map for an hour or longer to ensure their spot just as much as the non-guest. But when you only have a few hours to play and want to do the large events and succeed, you have no choice but to go to a server that has the best chances of having the population needed to succeed. Because if you don’t have the minimum population present, no amount of coordinatin will let you win.

Every single server has the population for these events. No matter how small your population is. It doesn’t take that many people (150) to hardcap a map. Your server has to be willing to coordinate on its own rather than piggyback on another server/guild’s coordination.

These events aren’t for everyone. If you’re not willing to be in Teamspeak/Ventrillo/Mumble etc., the way I see it, you shouldn’t be on the instance where the group is trying to complete the boss fight. It’s really easy to get 20 people in an overflow to decapitate 1 wurm or complete 1 marionette path and get the basic rewards. If you want to actually complete it, you’ll need to put effort in.

Not everyone likes dungeons or has the desire or ability to play the meta well enough to do speed runs (otherwise dungeons aren’t an efficient gold farm). Not everyone has the money to pay for gems. Not every server isn’t full. Or they might prefer a smaller quieter server to play on for the most part and just guest over to another server with friends for things that require a number of players. Or they might prefer playing WvW on the server they are on. Not wanting to be top tier but still have a good time in WvW. And well your home server has to be the server you want to do WvW in.

My server has a hard enough time getting people to go to the world bosses that aren’t Teq or aren’t the LS bosses at times. So what makes you think we have the people for Teq? People do tend to come out of the woodwork for LS things so those probably do have enough people.

And guesting is not the problem. The problem is the inherent difficulty of the events. Once a server beats it and it gets out everyone wants to go there to see how it’s done. Then people go: might as well just go to this server. I know they can do it.

The problem is how the bosses are designed.

What they could do is put a temp ban on guesting for a week or two. See what happens when players can’t guest to force people to try it on their own server. After that, open guesting back up.

Or heck, give a karma/gold/XP boost if you do a major world boss on your own server (server pride). Or up the RNG chances for better loot out of the dropped chest when you do the event on your own server.

Give people a reason to do it on their own server (or at least several legitimate tries at it).

Don’t punish those who wish to do PvE on servers that are not their own for whatever reason.