Guild Wars 2

TheDaiBish.9735:

Nerelith.7360:

1. Elite Skill capture off Boss Mobs.

2. Hundreds of skills that are not Locked to a weapon, so that all players can use any skills they wish, and not be limited By weapon choice.

If 2 is not possible.( not sure why, other MMO’s do it)…then more weapons.

3. Sub-classes.

To each i got the same response from players defending the current Gw2. " It’s too hard for the devs"

1. We have this in the form of unlocking Traits (except it isn’t restricted to simply find boss > kill boss > use SoC, which, IMO, is an improvement), though they could have branched out with the requirements a bit and not lumped every professions’ traits to a single task.

2. I personally like that each weapon has it’s own individual skills (although I wouldn’t say no to more skills tied to the weapon and the ability to swap skills out). It makes the weapon something more than simply a stat-stick and adds a bit of depth to the character customisation. Not only that, in GW1, there were quite a few skills that were tied to a weapon that you couldn’t use with any other weapon type.

3. I honestly don’t see the point in adding sub-classes. IMO, the amount of time it would take them to implement the system and balance all of the existing Skills and Traits to follow this would be time better spent fleshing out the professions more (skills, traits, weapons ect). Not only that, players would simply choose the most wanted professions and pick and choose bits from other, less desirable professions. It wouldn’t improve anything while consuming a lot of resources to implement.

I wouldn’t say it’s “too hard” for them, but I think in terms of resources and time, it’s a smarter choice to do what they’ve done.

They simply learnt from the all of the trouble they had in GW1.

1. Trait Unlocks are Nothing Like Elite Skill captures from Guild Wars. The only thing they have in common is,…they both unlock something. Aside from that. Nothing else is the same. Nothing is even similar.

2. In MY opinion, having weapon locked skills makes for less customization. When you have hundreds of possible skills, and can load each individually, that means if all you have are 5 “weapn skills” that are freed up and Individual…. you have many more combos… even if it’s just exactly 100..that’s 100C5 possible combinations… not even counting utility skills. 3 mainhand skills + 2 offhand skills or 5 two handed weapon skills… does not mean more customizability, but less.

3. Play Guild Wars. All I need to say.

PS: All those troubles they had… provided the playerbase with a FUN awesome game to play.

Gw2 is what you get when you make a game that is made for the convenience of the devs, that cashes In on an awesome IP. and that has managed to get enough players that are willing to accept." this is the best we can do, without doing hard work."

Azhure.1857:

@JMadFour

I could take the time out of my day and develop a very long, detailed list for you. But you don’t really want to hear it, do you? Not really? If you were a Guild Wars player that was sold to the idea of GW2 by their Manifesto, you would already know. Whether all of those players agree with me or not – a good many do. They know. They care.

But you don’t. You’re happy with GW2 today, for the most part at least. Liking the game for what it is isn’t a bad thing, JMadFour. Just don’t pretend that there are a LOT of people out there that have no right to expect anything else.
So please excuse me if I’m not going to waste time trying to convince someone that has no interest in actually listening.

I changed My sig. And I am sure that people that loved Guild wars understand it. For those that cannot Understand it, i have to wonder what part of Guild wars they played.

Fact is…this is Not Guild Wars 2.

Imagine if you had seen and loved The Godfather. And you walk into see the Godfather II, Now you are Introduced to the Corleone Clan, but this time, they went straight, and were the people behind Godfather’s Pizza. Michael is the CEO, and they show him buying up Pizza chains.

Halfway into the Movie, he discovers the secret to stuffed – crust Pizza.

…

Does it have The Corleone Family? yes… can you honestly call it a sequel to the Godfather though?

Same. This is Gw2, not Guild Wars anything… it’s The Corleones selling stuff crust Pizza.

Nerelith.7360:

…

Does it have The Corleone Family? yes… can you honestly call it a sequel to the Godfather though?

Same. This is Gw2, not Guild Wars anything… it’s The Corleones selling stuff crust Pizza.

You made me giggle, kitten it.

Nerelith.7360:

TheDaiBish.9735:

2. I personally like that each weapon has it’s own individual skills (although I wouldn’t say no to more skills tied to the weapon and the ability to swap skills out). It makes the weapon something more than simply a stat-stick and adds a bit of depth to the character customisation. Not only that, in GW1, there were quite a few skills that were tied to a weapon that you couldn’t use with any other weapon type.

2. In MY opinion, having weapon locked skills makes for less customization. When you have hundreds of possible skills, and can load each individually, that means if all you have are 5 “weapn skills” that are freed up and Individual…. you have many more combos… even if it’s just exactly 100..that’s 100C5 possible combinations… not even counting utility skills. 3 mainhand skills + 2 offhand skills or 5 two handed weapon skills… does not mean more customizability, but less.

I’m on the fence on this subject. I would love new skills, new weapons. Would love spvp even more if people didn’t know exactly what I could or couldn’t do based on what weapon(s) they see me running around with. However my main concern, if we had the ability to slot skills of our choosing onto our build template, would be balance. I don’t know how it could be balanced… and if it could – The difficulty would be something I’m not sure ArenaNet is equipped to handle.

Azhure.1857:

Nerelith.7360:

TheDaiBish.9735:

2. I personally like that each weapon has it’s own individual skills (although I wouldn’t say no to more skills tied to the weapon and the ability to swap skills out). It makes the weapon something more than simply a stat-stick and adds a bit of depth to the character customisation. Not only that, in GW1, there were quite a few skills that were tied to a weapon that you couldn’t use with any other weapon type.

2. In MY opinion, having weapon locked skills makes for less customization. When you have hundreds of possible skills, and can load each individually, that means if all you have are 5 “weapn skills” that are freed up and Individual…. you have many more combos… even if it’s just exactly 100..that’s 100C5 possible combinations… not even counting utility skills. 3 mainhand skills + 2 offhand skills or 5 two handed weapon skills… does not mean more customizability, but less.

I’m on the fence on this subject. I would love new skills, new weapons. Would love spvp even more if people didn’t know exactly what I could or couldn’t do based on what weapon(s) they see me running around with. However my main concern, if we had the ability to slot skills of our choosing onto our build template, would be balance. I don’t know how it could be balanced… and if it could – The difficulty would be something I’m not sure ArenaNet is equipped to handle.

They did a good job with Guild Wars, although I really think this is a different Anet from the Anet that produced Guild Wars, maybe this Anet may not be up to the task? I mean they cannot balance the limited set of skills they have now.

Eh, on the topic of the skill system of GW1 . . . it was really good but really broken at the same time. It had the complexity and flexibility to offer a lot of options in how to build a character . . .

. . . and there it ran into two problems. There was way more ways to set up your skills/attributes which was “wrong” than there was “right”. Much like there is a “wrong” way to play a class in GW2. There was so much in the way of possible ways to set up your character it was really difficult to figure out what to work with . . . without really having to spend time diving into build theory. (Or downloading a build and doing what it said to do with it…)

Secondly? People figured out how to break the game with the skill system, necessitating frequent balance patches to try to un-break it.

Both these things are a problem with my favorite other example of “constant content release” – MTG. Seriously. They have so much complexity if you decide to include any and all card sets (save two) that you’re looking at tens of thousands of unique cards. And they put out a constant stream of “content” in the expansions which I think are on a schedule of every other month . . . AND a revision of the core set every year which shakes up the state of the metagame each time.

I still have fun playing it but by any and all gods you could name, I would never try to take it seriously enough to go pro.

Nerelith.7360:

They did a good job with Guild Wars, although I really think this is a different Anet from the Anet that produced Guild Wars, maybe this Anet may not be up to the task? I mean they cannot balance the limited set of skills they have now.

They did only a passable job of balancing the skills before, also. It worked, but there was always grumbling about how the balancing was done badly.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Eh, on the topic of the skill system of GW1 . . . it was really good but really broken at the same time. It had the complexity and flexibility to offer a lot of options in how to build a character . . .

. . . and there it ran into two problems. There was way more ways to set up your skills/attributes which was “wrong” than there was “right”. Much like there is a “wrong” way to play a class in GW2. There was so much in the way of possible ways to set up your character it was really difficult to figure out what to work with . . . without really having to spend time diving into build theory. (Or downloading a build and doing what it said to do with it…)

Secondly? People figured out how to break the game with the skill system, necessitating frequent balance patches to try to un-break it.

Both these things are a problem with my favorite other example of “constant content release” – MTG. Seriously. They have so much complexity if you decide to include any and all card sets (save two) that you’re looking at tens of thousands of unique cards. And they put out a constant stream of “content” in the expansions which I think are on a schedule of every other month . . . AND a revision of the core set every year which shakes up the state of the metagame each time.

I still have fun playing it but by any and all gods you could name, I would never try to take it seriously enough to go pro.

The thing is, a lot that many players considered broken, weren’t..they were just what you could do with the tools provided, that the devs left alone, because they agreed … 55 monks.

Ask anyone else, they would say " that was Broken, and the devs couldn’t Un-break it." but for many it was Just doing what the tools allowed.

The game was fun, and fine. As for " many ways to play it bad." yes… you are right. The alternative is.. a game with mediocre skills.

Nerelith.7360:

The thing is, a lot that many players considered broken, weren’t..they were just what you could do with the tools provided, that the devs left alone, because they agreed … 55 monks.

I counter with “Perma SF”, which was more what I was thinking of. 55 Monks could be beaten if you knew what you were dealing with and had a means of stripping enchantments

Ask anyone else, they would say " that was Broken, and the devs couldn’t Un-break it." but for many it was Just doing what the tools allowed.

The game was fun, and fine. As for " many ways to play it bad." yes… you are right. The alternative is.. a game with mediocre skills.

It’s fun, it’s fine, but it’s also pretty flawed in the skill department due to the massive pool of interactions.

I mean, I go back to MTG for this, but there are tons of broken decks in that game which are possible to beat if you have the counter-decks in hand or they are unlucky. That doesn’t make them less broken or less a problem to consider. It’s why there was the split for a tournament scene where they decided to limit the pool of available cards to the last two blocks and the most recent core set.

And to come back to the topic we are discussing? GW1 made the Codex Arena. People I knew who liked the PvP hated the Codex Arena, because it was “not for true PvP”.

Dardevilmon.6702:

Dont touch the combat that is the best part about this game the thing they need to touch is the balance of skills no the combat.Combat is incredibly fluid and responsive and non other mmo or rpg or mmorpg have combat as good as this 1.

no other mmo? Ever heard of Vindictus or Blade&Soul? Heck even Tera has a system closer to real action combat. I don’t get how people think 1 dodge button revolutionizes mmo gameplay….

Inspired me to post something here, and btw when its comes to Gw1 balance practices..

Smiters Boon

that’s all that really needs to be said.. specially for someone who did used to play a fair bit of PvP as a monk.. Anyway.

When it comes to core systems, I think the “Living world” and Living Story concepts are equally in need of an overhaul.

The concept and potential of a living world, based off of the Gw2 Manifesto was that the world would change and reflect your deeds as you played. Gw2 at current, barely manages this. Only through heart quests.

That village can be taken over by centaurs or can be saved from the attack sure, thats kind of living, its a multiple outcome. But that same event replays the same way in the same set interval in the same spot… regardless of how many times its failed or won the world never changes. Players deeds can give the illusion of a living world given that you as a player never ever look back, back track, or revisit a location in game. Its on rails and it does not evolve, and Anet puts no effort into tracking mechanics based on player interaction to alter this world.

And this ties into the Living Story.

The story is not living either. It’s on rails and the outcome is dictated by Anet and holds no bases on what the Players do during it. Yes Season 1 altered the world… slightly… but honestly we have no huge repercussions or dramatic sense that the world has been changed forever. Sure, point at Kessex and LA but i can point you to the rest of the game. Over half of Kessex continues on its same fixed loops with not a thought nor bother to the fact that there was a tower of evil and poison a short jog away. No NPC outside of LS relevant characters is upset over the loss of the biggest port in Kryta.

I understand as a realist that its outlandish to demand that Anet put more care and “have the balls” to rock our world and shake things up all the time into developing a World that changes with player actions and a Story set inside of it that can alter more than some map textures and geometry (and break hearts and skill points).

If i can give an example of how I feel it should be..

Centaurs Fail consistently at capturing Human Outpost X for 2 months (Real time)
Centaurs fall back and meet at a lower camp – players can now disrupt this meeting (omg new event)
Centaurs are often left alone for a Month – Outcome A
Centaurs are Often disrupted for a month – Outcome B

Outcome A – Centaurs move on the outpost with siege and new tactics from a new direction.
Outcome B – Centaurs are Demoralized and move from this Map to another and are replaced by a New Creature/foe.

Living Story has a Tower built in the Map earlier on – Some centaurs split into a friendly Faction in common interest of not dieing. Honestly whats the point of capturing a town when its sitting on poisonous and wasted lands that are of no use and not habitable by any race?

Tower Falls – Some centaurs are swayed to remain peaceful – shakey peace talks start with the queen.

These things don’t need 4 paragraph Blog posts to bring our attention to them, they dont need 70 achievement points to benefit the players, because Giving us a world in which all our compiled actions matter makes the experience more Binding and immerse for everyone.

I feel this was the original intent of LS when Southsun was presented and the karka attacked. I also feel like having one large ONE TIME ONLY event was a Good thing.

I liked that story, i liked the connection i felt with random strangers as we pushed the karka back together all knowing that this event was shared and was not repeatable.

I didn’t like that Gw2 was in such a state that the event was crippled by the server limitations and optimization limitations, and the lag was terrible. I feel bad for those that missed the fights and the ending. But the Dead Karka still sits there at the lava pit, as a reminder and semi-monument to the triumph of the blob-o-death zerg of heroes, even for those that did not play that day or started playing later on, its still there that we had an experience that really felt like changing the world.

Tl;dr version
“Living world” should not equate to never evolving and minimalistic impact.
Living Story Should not equate to something that clearly holds no real impact upon the world. It should be a catalyst to direct players actions to further change the world.

I mentioned this before, but the biggest issue with GW2s combat is that the devs didn’t design the PVE game around the skills they made. They designed the PVE game around the same basic enemy structures we’ve been seeing in MMOs for awhile. New vehicle, same roads…

I feel kinda odd reading some of the feelings about GW. GW was a nightmare to balance and i really think ANet brought their A game when designing GW2’s combat system while minimizing the balancing drama. Unfortunately, the plague of most games in general, is the depth of the encounters, the AI and basically making “hard” bosses giant HP punching bags. I absolutely hate how all the trash in every dungeon is such a pain to kill, not because they are hard, but because they have an incredibly high health pool. But, really, making the AI smarter is a much bigger job than changing some numbers. I do wish they would adopt the combat mod that’s floating around, it would definitely improve this games combat mechanics. I loath tab targeting.

As for WvW and PvP, I’m really not sure where ANets love of conquest mode stems from. That’s really what hurting both game modes, good fights be kitten ed, let’s just hold this point, boring. HoH in GW at least had a secondary mechanic. I know they think it’s the best mode, but i really beg to differ. GvG in GW was fantastic. Sadly, WvW is just about bringing numbers for most servers and just follow the dorrito.

What’s really got my panties in a bunch is megaservers. And i’d bet the farm Anet did it because, well, China. That’s where GW2 jumped the shark for me, not some manifesto, blah blah. If you didn’t know “we don’t make grindy games” wasn’t marketing hype from the get go, i feel bad for ya.

battle system: i would like to have ether one or the other fixed.
currently we have a targeting system for a battle system DCUO uses with a battle system for a targeting system GW1 uses, ether make the battle system work like DCUO or make the target system work like GW1, it’s a mess right now.

personal story: i don’t think the problem is the stories them selves, it’s the choices we have.
i made a character that doesn’t have parents anymore because of age reasons and she is a lone child, further more she doesn’t care about the circus for even a second.
it’s a situation where Anet pretty much ruins someones character just so it fit’s their agenda, something no game should ever do

what if i want to choose a story that i am a drifter and got in to a situation that causes me to meet logan, maybe something like a fight on the streets and i want to stop it leading to a whole story arc.
no need to change what we already have, it’s better to expand what we can do.

havellian.4073:

Dardevilmon.6702:

Dont touch the combat that is the best part about this game the thing they need to touch is the balance of skills no the combat.Combat is incredibly fluid and responsive and non other mmo or rpg or mmorpg have combat as good as this 1.

no other mmo? Ever heard of Vindictus or Blade&Soul? Heck even Tera has a system closer to real action combat. I don’t get how people think 1 dodge button revolutionizes mmo gameplay….

I absolutely hate this style of combat. I never played shooters and i hate when i can’t move my mouse without moving the whole screen. Also i need to have the possibility to click my skills with the mouse. And the thing that each swing with your weapon drags you forward was also totally annoying for me.

My biggest fear before i could actually play GW2 the first time was that they could have a combat system like those games, because then i would have deleted the game after maybe 1 hour like i did with Vindictus, Neverwinter, DCUO .. Tera i managed at last to play for 3 days .. but in the end the combat was more like a physical pain for me.

Combat doesn’t need redoing. They just need to rebalance and take the cheese that everyone crutches on out the game and go back to what they originally planned for this game. Which was every weapon type being viable and having a legit build. Wasn’t that what they wanted? A lot of weapons don’t see serious play even after so long since release.

They just need to stop listening to every little nerf cry and start looking at things from an experienced view. Im sure they have testers for this but they should get more ppl so they have a bigger number to look at instead of going to the forums and reading, ‘’ WARRIOR OP NERF SIG NERF GS NERF EVERYTING’’ Those type of threads have made more impact on this game than anything.

They need to put buffs where they’re needed and nerf the broken things that are easy to use and stray from the original main hype of the game. Which was skill based pvp. Skill is like 30% of the game and build is 70% (numbers are what i was feeling atm lel) But it is really like that. Most of the ppl you can meet in spvp/tpvp/wvw are using the same builds and cant really play other ones that require skill and thinking to do. Now im not saying all the ppl that use things like hambow are crowned noob on the spot but builds like that don’t promote skill based gameplay. They just promote broken combos and easy to play set ups that don’t really require effort.

TLDR: combat doesn’t need redoing. Builds just need a bigger test group to be implemented instead of looking at ‘’NERF DIS CUS OP’’ threads to do balance changes.

I wish they put something like this as an option in the game: http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/10s4s6/combat_mode_11/

Nerelith.7360:

1. Trait Unlocks are Nothing Like Elite Skill captures from Guild Wars. The only thing they have in common is,…they both unlock something. Aside from that. Nothing else is the same. Nothing is even similar.

GW1: You buy a SoC, hunt down a boss and use SoC on it’s corpse to get the skill.
GW2: You hunt down a boss (or complete any other activity) and then use the item given to unlock the trait.

They’re not, word for word, exactly the same, but trait unlocking has the essence of skill unlocking; you do something to unlock a component that you can use in your build.

After all, you don’t simply copy and paste things from one game to another; you need to adapt it to fit it into the game.

Skill hunting in GW1 wouldn’t have worked in GW2 since, for starters, you’ve got an instance generated for you and bosses you can hunt at a whim vs an instance that you will potentially share with 100’s of other people with bosses spawning at certain times.

Even if they did the buy SoC > hunt boss > capture skill, it wouldn’t be exactly the same as in GW1. Players wouldn’t need to sacrifice a slot, since they could just slot the SoC in after the boss fight, and you’d have to potentially wait around in order to get the skill you want.

Nerelith.7360:

2. In MY opinion, having weapon locked skills makes for less customization. When you have hundreds of possible skills, and can load each individually, that means if all you have are 5 “weapn skills” that are freed up and Individual…. you have many more combos… even if it’s just exactly 100..that’s 100C5 possible combinations… not even counting utility skills. 3 mainhand skills + 2 offhand skills or 5 two handed weapon skills… does not mean more customizability, but less.

I didn’t say it adds more customisation. I said it adds a bit more depth to it. You have to make a meaningful choice as to what weapon(s) you’re going to take for your build other than what stats it has.

Of course, as I said, I wouldn’t say no to more weapon skills -in fact, I would very much love this – but I’d still like to see these skills tied to the weapons, and possibly even the slot.

Nerelith.7360:

3. Play Guild Wars. All I need to say.

I did, and still do on occasion. What’s your point?

Nerelith.7360:

PS: All those troubles they had… provided the playerbase with a FUN awesome game to play.

Gw2 is what you get when you make a game that is made for the convenience of the devs, that cashes In on an awesome IP. and that has managed to get enough players that are willing to accept." this is the best we can do, without doing hard work."

Fun is subjective. I agree that GW had it’s merits, and that there were things that they should have brought over to GW2 (things like GvG, Guild Halls, skill functionality and synergy ect). At the same time, I don’t think that they should have copied everything from GW and ported it over into GW2 simply because it was in GW1 (sub-professions, heroes and henchmen ect).

That aside, you have no idea what they do on a day to day basis. You can’t say that they’re not working hard without that information, and I’ve never seen any dev say “this is the best we can do without doing hard work” – unless you can quote where they’ve said that at any point?

Nerelith.7360:

Vayne.8563:

Don’t have particular issues with what you’ve posted OP except for the very last point, about saving the world.

We’ve known about all the dragons since even before launch. We started learning about them in Guild Wars 1. The dragons aren’t going away. The battle with have is with them.

Until they’re gone, the world is in danger.

I’m not sure how Anet could back away from that now, and I’m not sure they should. It’s the same threat we had at launch. We’ve handled one of six elder dragons. There are five to go.

The problem as I see it is.. with this you have a sort of countdown…

1 dragon down… 5 left.

1. Either you kill off the dragons one at a time til None are left…or you do Not progress to kill the 6th dragon.

A. You kill off all the dragons One By one til None are left. What do you do then?

B. You never get to kill the 6th drafgon. How does your player-base feel?

It’s like the Dr Who corner the writers wrote themselves Into….

Only 12 Doctors .. that was the story going back to the 70’s…

Then the 12th doctor dies.

A. End the series.

B. Continue wih a 13th Doctor. But that means retconning all those " Only 12 doctors" storylines so that they make sense with a 13th doctor.." oops we were wrong"?

See what I mean?

What do you do if you kill off the 6th elder dragon? Turns out there was a 7th? an 8th? " oops we were wrong"?

No one ever said there would never be any problems besides Elder Dragons. The problem is you forget the post I’m responding to when I make my response and then try to make it sound like my response is unreasonable.

The OP said, and I’m paraphrasing here, you can’t have saving the world as something you do over and over again. I was pointing out that you can’t introduce six dragons and not solve that problem….that doesn’t mean you can’t do other stuff in between as well. I mean Palawa Joko is still out there and that’s a whole different issue too. No one knows what’s going on in Cantha.

And getting rid of all six dragons isn’t necessary the end of the game, even then. In The Hobbit, the deal was to kill the dragon and it was done. But Lord of the Rings still came after.

Beldin.5498:

havellian.4073:

Dardevilmon.6702:

Dont touch the combat that is the best part about this game the thing they need to touch is the balance of skills no the combat.Combat is incredibly fluid and responsive and non other mmo or rpg or mmorpg have combat as good as this 1.

no other mmo? Ever heard of Vindictus or Blade&Soul? Heck even Tera has a system closer to real action combat. I don’t get how people think 1 dodge button revolutionizes mmo gameplay….

I absolutely hate this style of combat. I never played shooters and i hate when i can’t move my mouse without moving the whole screen. Also i need to have the possibility to click my skills with the mouse. And the thing that each swing with your weapon drags you forward was also totally annoying for me.

My biggest fear before i could actually play GW2 the first time was that they could have a combat system like those games, because then i would have deleted the game after maybe 1 hour like i did with Vindictus, Neverwinter, DCUO .. Tera i managed at last to play for 3 days .. but in the end the combat was more like a physical pain for me.

You can play Gw2 without using the Mouse to click skills. You SHOULD Play Gw2 without using the Mouse to click skills.

Using your Mouse to click skills, will make you less effective.

No.

I also played FFXIV (and FFXIV:ARR)

And the only reason they remade the entire game was because it was horrific.

4 minutes to kill a mob (yarzon in my experience) and it gave an absurdly low amount of experience. Combat was very slow and very… Bad, ruined by massive delays.

GW2 is not in danger, and has a working combat system. It wasn’t horrible like the original FFXIV. There will always be “clinks” to a game due to the system. Check out FFXIV enrage mode.

Did the op miss the whole thread and discussion on templates and best ways to implement, features they would have, etc?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Suggestion-Favorite-builds-button/first#post4094307

Nerelith.7360:

Beldin.5498:

havellian.4073:

Dardevilmon.6702:

Dont touch the combat that is the best part about this game the thing they need to touch is the balance of skills no the combat.Combat is incredibly fluid and responsive and non other mmo or rpg or mmorpg have combat as good as this 1.

no other mmo? Ever heard of Vindictus or Blade&Soul? Heck even Tera has a system closer to real action combat. I don’t get how people think 1 dodge button revolutionizes mmo gameplay….

I absolutely hate this style of combat. I never played shooters and i hate when i can’t move my mouse without moving the whole screen. Also i need to have the possibility to click my skills with the mouse. And the thing that each swing with your weapon drags you forward was also totally annoying for me.

My biggest fear before i could actually play GW2 the first time was that they could have a combat system like those games, because then i would have deleted the game after maybe 1 hour like i did with Vindictus, Neverwinter, DCUO .. Tera i managed at last to play for 3 days .. but in the end the combat was more like a physical pain for me.

You can play Gw2 without using the Mouse to click skills. You SHOULD Play Gw2 without using the Mouse to click skills.

Using your Mouse to click skills, will make you less effective.

I’m 50 .. i never learned typing so i use 4 fingers to type now and have to look constantly onto the keyboard to not hit the wrong keys. So thats why i prefer to click skills with the mouse.

So please don’t tell me how i should play .. thats as much helpful as telling me : you should play guitar as Al Di Meola.

Beldin.5498:

Nerelith.7360:

Beldin.5498:

havellian.4073:

Dardevilmon.6702:

Dont touch the combat that is the best part about this game the thing they need to touch is the balance of skills no the combat.Combat is incredibly fluid and responsive and non other mmo or rpg or mmorpg have combat as good as this 1.

no other mmo? Ever heard of Vindictus or Blade&Soul? Heck even Tera has a system closer to real action combat. I don’t get how people think 1 dodge button revolutionizes mmo gameplay….

I absolutely hate this style of combat. I never played shooters and i hate when i can’t move my mouse without moving the whole screen. Also i need to have the possibility to click my skills with the mouse. And the thing that each swing with your weapon drags you forward was also totally annoying for me.

My biggest fear before i could actually play GW2 the first time was that they could have a combat system like those games, because then i would have deleted the game after maybe 1 hour like i did with Vindictus, Neverwinter, DCUO .. Tera i managed at last to play for 3 days .. but in the end the combat was more like a physical pain for me.

You can play Gw2 without using the Mouse to click skills. You SHOULD Play Gw2 without using the Mouse to click skills.

Using your Mouse to click skills, will make you less effective.

I’m 50 .. i never learned typing so i use 4 fingers to type now and have to look constantly onto the keyboard to not hit the wrong keys. So thats why i prefer to click skills with the mouse.

So please don’t tell me how i should play .. thats as much helpful as telling me : you should play guitar as Al Di Meola.

Not quite. If you wish to play by clicking skills with the Mouse, that is your choice, but then don’t complain that you are not as effective as if you just clicked the 2 key, or used a proper gaming Mouse.

One can complain about the layout of the marathon course, but if one insists on Hopping the entire way on one leg, one doesn’t really have a leg to stand on.

Nerelith.7360:

Beldin.5498:

Nerelith.7360:

Beldin.5498:

havellian.4073:

Dardevilmon.6702:

Dont touch the combat that is the best part about this game the thing they need to touch is the balance of skills no the combat.Combat is incredibly fluid and responsive and non other mmo or rpg or mmorpg have combat as good as this 1.

no other mmo? Ever heard of Vindictus or Blade&Soul? Heck even Tera has a system closer to real action combat. I don’t get how people think 1 dodge button revolutionizes mmo gameplay….

I absolutely hate this style of combat. I never played shooters and i hate when i can’t move my mouse without moving the whole screen. Also i need to have the possibility to click my skills with the mouse. And the thing that each swing with your weapon drags you forward was also totally annoying for me.

My biggest fear before i could actually play GW2 the first time was that they could have a combat system like those games, because then i would have deleted the game after maybe 1 hour like i did with Vindictus, Neverwinter, DCUO .. Tera i managed at last to play for 3 days .. but in the end the combat was more like a physical pain for me.

You can play Gw2 without using the Mouse to click skills. You SHOULD Play Gw2 without using the Mouse to click skills.

Using your Mouse to click skills, will make you less effective.

I’m 50 .. i never learned typing so i use 4 fingers to type now and have to look constantly onto the keyboard to not hit the wrong keys. So thats why i prefer to click skills with the mouse.

So please don’t tell me how i should play .. thats as much helpful as telling me : you should play guitar as Al Di Meola.

Not quite. If you wish to play by clicking skills with the Mouse, that is your choice, but then don’t complain that you are not as effective as if you just clicked the 2 key, or used a proper gaming Mouse.

One can complain about the layout of the marathon course, but if one insists on Hopping the entire way on one leg, one doesn’t really have a leg to stand on.

Have i complained ? Or at least have i complained about GW2 ? Now i haven’t,
i have only said that i DON’T want a shooter like combat like Vindictus.

I would only complain if they change that like some people here want.

So if people complain here, in my eyes it are those that want to turn GW2
into another Vindictus or FF XYZ or whatever.

Guys, guys, guys! Settle down.

Lets get this out of the way, both design and mechanically Guild Wars 2 has a massive amount of room for improvement and it NEEDS improvement.

Just one problem, I’ve been suspended calling ArenaNet out on this. Calling this combat design experience novice.

The thing is, you cannot blame them for their closed mind. For 3 years, for 40 hours a week or more, they walk in, work on Guild Wars 2 and go home.

Guild Wars 2 is ArenaNets baby, tell them their baby is flawed and needs improvement and you might as well /resign no monk. There has been countless threads on this and I even made a video regarding this. But I doubt ArenaNet would even click the link let alone watch a single second :\

I hear you guys but ArenaNet need to get to the point they need to step back and ask themselves, this isn’t the future of Guild Wars 2 combat.

maha.7902:

Combat does not need redoing.

My tip is this:

You don’t like the combat so play another game.

Wow, gotta love those pointless “if you don’t like it, quit it” quazi-arguments. As the OP above said, he likes the game, thinks it’s not bad, and you suggest him to quit the game because you love it and he sees some problems therewith.

That’s not the way to propose constructive criticism. Imo, your post was offensive, too, by your blatant ignorance.

maha.7902:

He suggests costing endurance and he says there is a lack of depth and no proper sense of risk/reward.

Suggestion #1 is bad, and claims #1 and #2 are wrong.

Why should I entertain them with an actual response if they are going to give ideas that would require a complete overhaul of an already good combat system and they try to make claims which just betray their, either lack of understanding or refusal to accept that risk and reward and depth exist in the current system and they just chose to ignore it?

That’s precisely what I thought you’d respond with.

A) While you are totally entitled to view his suggestion #1. as bad, you are absotulety wrong, by the theory of argumentation as proposed by Aristotle in Rhetoric, with regards to “and claims #1 and #2 are wrong.”.

Why? You may, again, propose your own view, with solid argumentation and not empty, blatant statements “is wrong”. Yet, you can’t judge whether it is “right or wrong”, since what he proposes is not a statement of facts but rather a piece of opinion. Therefore, it cannot be assumed that he misrepresented the facts whatsoever, to which, hypothetically, you would be entitled to respond with “right or wrong” statement ( again, backed up with argumentation as defined by Aristotle in Rhetoric ). What he did was to propose an opinion or view, with which, as with the only thing you were right about – his suggestion #1. – you may have disagreed or agreed with. But you are not entitled by the reason of sheer logic to state that his opinion is factually wrong or right, since, it never presents itself as a statement of fact.

Azhure.1857:

Nerelith.7360:

TheDaiBish.9735:

2. I personally like that each weapon has it’s own individual skills (although I wouldn’t say no to more skills tied to the weapon and the ability to swap skills out). It makes the weapon something more than simply a stat-stick and adds a bit of depth to the character customisation. Not only that, in GW1, there were quite a few skills that were tied to a weapon that you couldn’t use with any other weapon type.

2. In MY opinion, having weapon locked skills makes for less customization. When you have hundreds of possible skills, and can load each individually, that means if all you have are 5 “weapn skills” that are freed up and Individual…. you have many more combos… even if it’s just exactly 100..that’s 100C5 possible combinations… not even counting utility skills. 3 mainhand skills + 2 offhand skills or 5 two handed weapon skills… does not mean more customizability, but less.

I’m on the fence on this subject. I would love new skills, new weapons. Would love spvp even more if people didn’t know exactly what I could or couldn’t do based on what weapon(s) they see me running around with. However my main concern, if we had the ability to slot skills of our choosing onto our build template, would be balance. I don’t know how it could be balanced… and if it could – The difficulty would be something I’m not sure ArenaNet is equipped to handle.

Obviously Anet went this route with GW2 precisely to making balancing easier and quicker.
1. The limited skills
2. The limited weapon skills and tied all weapon skills together
3. They limited total quantity of skills
4. They eliminated subclasses.

Does this make it easier to balance? Of course it does!

Does it take satisfaction away from being able to RPG your toon and make a build that you want? Obviously yes.

There has been no word from Devs on adding more weapon skills or skills in general since Oct 2013 when MMORPG had an interview with Anet that said that engineers would get hammers, etc.

Guess what, I highly doubt they are adding any more skills for another year at the very least. If anything, the latest seems that they want to redefine classes and simply nerf of buff or change already existing skills. Dont expect more, expect more cud-chewing, just like they keep doing with traits.

maha.7902:

Corpus Christi.2057:

maha.7902:

He suggests costing endurance and he says there is a lack of depth and no proper sense of risk/reward.

Suggestion #1 is bad, and claims #1 and #2 are wrong.

Why should I entertain them with an actual response if they are going to give ideas that would require a complete overhaul of an already good combat system and they try to make claims which just betray their, either lack of understanding or refusal to accept that risk and reward and depth exist in the current system and they just chose to ignore it?

That’s precisely what I thought you’d respond with.

A) While you are totally entitled to view his suggestion #1. as bad, you are absotulety wrong, by the theory of argumentation as proposed by Aristotle in Rhetoric, with regards to “and claims #1 and #2 are wrong.”.

Why? You may, again, propose your own view, with solid argumentation and not empty, blatant statements “is wrong”. Yet, you can’t judge whether it is “right or wrong”, since what he proposes is not a statement of facts but rather a piece of opinion. Therefore, it cannot be assumed that he misrepresented the facts whatsoever, to which, hypothetically, you would be entitled to respond with “right or wrong” statement ( again, backed up with argumentation as defined by Aristotle in Rhetoric ). What he did was to propose an opinion or view, with which, as with the only thing you were right about – his suggestion #1. – you may have disagreed or agreed with. But you are not entitled by the reason of sheer logic to state that his opinion is factually wrong or right, since, it never presents itself as a statement of fact.

are you for real

Tried to show you where you were WRONG.

Before there was an “ARR”, there was an “NGE” for SWG.

As for GW2, it doesn’t need to go to that extreme. It just needs an overhaul to some mechanics.

nexxe.7081:

Before there was an “ARR”, there was an “NGE” for SWG.

As for GW2, it doesn’t need to go to that extreme. It just needs an overhaul to some mechanics.

Wasn’t “ARR” basically viewed as a positive re-work while “NGE” was viewed as overwhelmingly negative?

Personally, I go back and I recall the Trammel/Feluccia split

I agree that stacking in dungeons needs to go. That is not fun game play and is just bad design. It’s a major reason I can’t recommend this game to my MMO traditionalist friends. It’s just an embarrassment that it is still a factor 2 years after launch.

I also agree we need build templates. And not just in PvP and WvW. Though that isn’t really a flaw, just a feature that would be realllllly nice.

Everything else in the OP is just personal opinion. I wouldn’t call any of the others “fundamental flaws”.

And the Living Story has been going for over a year now, it’s obviously sustainable. And until recently didn’t even touch on the dragons.

The Living Story is obviously more successful than it’s detractors realize because it’s the only MMO story people talk about on an ongoing basis. No one talks about SWTOR’s story now despite it being one of the selling points of the game, no one talks about WoW’s story unless a new expansion is coming out. It generates a lot of excitement. People talk about it the way you’d talk about your favorite ongoing comic or TV series.

Taking out the Living Story would make this game soulless and destroy one of the things that makes this game different. The Living Story is now at the heart of what makes GW2 special. It will certainly change and evolve over time (like season 2 being almost all permanent content), but it will never go away. Nor should it. Because it wasn’t there at launch people think it’s an optional add on. It’s not. It’s the core of what GW2 is now. The highly touted dynamic events from the manifesto failed to create a world that seemed alive. The Living Story is their second attempt.

DragonWhimsy.6489:

I agree that stacking in dungeons needs to go. That is not fun game play and is just bad design. It’s a major reason I can’t recommend this game to my MMO traditionalist friends. It’s just an embarrassment that it is still a factor 2 years after launch.

I also agree we need build templates. And not just in PvP and WvW. Though that isn’t really a flaw, just a feature that would be realllllly nice.

Everything else in the OP is just personal opinion. I wouldn’t call any of the others “fundamental flaws”.

And the Living Story has been going for over a year now, it’s obviously sustainable. And until recently didn’t even touch on the dragons.

The Living Story is obviously more successful than it’s detractors realize because it’s the only MMO story people talk about on an ongoing basis. No one talks about SWTOR’s story now despite it being one of the selling points of the game, no one talks about WoW’s story unless a new expansion is coming out. It generates a lot of excitement. People talk about it the way you’d talk about your favorite ongoing comic or TV series.

Taking out the Living Story would make this game soulless and destroy one of the things that makes this game different. The Living Story is now at the heart of what makes GW2 special. It will certainly change and evolve over time (like season 2 being almost all permanent content), but it will never go away. Nor should it. Because it wasn’t there at launch people think it’s an optional add on. It’s not. It’s the core of what GW2 is now. The highly touted dynamic events from the manifesto failed to create a world that seemed alive. The Living Story is their second attempt.

What do you want to replace stacking with? Everyone spreading out and ranging?

maha.7902:

What do you want to replace stacking with? Everyone spreading out and ranging?

A question for you folk to chew on, and I don’t have an answer to but . . .

Why does stacking in dungeons exist? What is the benefit of doing it versus not doing it?

Sharing boons, cleaving mobs, positioning bosses.

If you spread out you go out of boon radius, can’t cleave, and bosses/mobs move around everywhere.

Regarding weapon locked skills:

There is a happy medium. They need to design each classes skill set so that they are all tied to a particular weapon (sword skills, mace skills, scepter skills, etc.) but within those that are tied to that weapon, you can choose which ones to use and place on your skill bar.

The good part about the current system is the lack of clutter in the UI, reducing the need for manual dexterity (I have my hotbar set up so that 1-5 are 1-5, Heal is E, weapon swap is E, Elite is S-E, and Utility are S1-S3 – so I only use a total of 7 hotkeys to control my entire skill bar), and limiting available skills during combat to 10 at any one time (plus weapons swaps).

This is the GOOD part about it.

The BAD part is that the left hand side is nigh unconfigurable. Instead of linking a few skills to each weapon by class, they should have a list of skills that can only be used if you have that weapon equipped, but which you can put any of them on your weapon bar.

That would be the IDEAL compromise. It would provide for greater customizability, while still limiting the number of skills a player has access to during combat to exactly the same as it is now. Just let us play around with it a bit.

Additionally, traits need to have a greater impact on the skills themselves.

They need to go beyond merely providing some kind of invisible stat bonus, and actually alter the animations and underlying mechanics of the skill (similarly to how D3 runes work).

Regarding balance:

The easiest way to balance a game is to unbalance everything. By making everything OP, nothing is OP.

If you increase the number of available skills in the game by at least triple what they currently are, and make sure that every single class has as small handful of ‘godly’ skills, so that no one class can actually complain that they are UP, then you buy yourself the time to work on all the other skills that don’t work quite as well.

In other words, even if half the skills aren’t quite up to snuff, by drastically increasing the number of skills available, and making quite a few of them over the top, no one really complains about the unused skills, which gives the devs time to work on those unused skills without worrying about gimping anyone.

When it comes to skills, shoot for overkill.

An additional comment about weapon skills:

I often find myself in a situation where I really love one or two skills on a weapon, and find them really useful, but no the rest.

For example, on my Warrior I like Main hand Mace skills 1 and 2, but not 3 as much.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a good skill, and I’m pretty sure plenty of people like it – but I don’t.

It just doesn’t fit my playstyle.

I’d love to replace it with a different Mace skill that fulfills some other function that I feel I need more.

Also, this would encourage greater build diversity and planning. Keep things unexpected, because just because someone is using a weapon you recognize, doesn’t mean you know everything about how they’re using it.

Beldin.5498:

Nerelith.7360:

Beldin.5498:

Nerelith.7360:

Beldin.5498:

havellian.4073:

Dardevilmon.6702:

Dont touch the combat that is the best part about this game the thing they need to touch is the balance of skills no the combat.Combat is incredibly fluid and responsive and non other mmo or rpg or mmorpg have combat as good as this 1.

no other mmo? Ever heard of Vindictus or Blade&Soul? Heck even Tera has a system closer to real action combat. I don’t get how people think 1 dodge button revolutionizes mmo gameplay….

I absolutely hate this style of combat. I never played shooters and i hate when i can’t move my mouse without moving the whole screen. Also i need to have the possibility to click my skills with the mouse. And the thing that each swing with your weapon drags you forward was also totally annoying for me.

My biggest fear before i could actually play GW2 the first time was that they could have a combat system like those games, because then i would have deleted the game after maybe 1 hour like i did with Vindictus, Neverwinter, DCUO .. Tera i managed at last to play for 3 days .. but in the end the combat was more like a physical pain for me.

You can play Gw2 without using the Mouse to click skills. You SHOULD Play Gw2 without using the Mouse to click skills.

Using your Mouse to click skills, will make you less effective.

I’m 50 .. i never learned typing so i use 4 fingers to type now and have to look constantly onto the keyboard to not hit the wrong keys. So thats why i prefer to click skills with the mouse.

So please don’t tell me how i should play .. thats as much helpful as telling me : you should play guitar as Al Di Meola.

Not quite. If you wish to play by clicking skills with the Mouse, that is your choice, but then don’t complain that you are not as effective as if you just clicked the 2 key, or used a proper gaming Mouse.

One can complain about the layout of the marathon course, but if one insists on Hopping the entire way on one leg, one doesn’t really have a leg to stand on.

Have i complained ? Or at least have i complained about GW2 ? Now i haven’t,
i have only said that i DON’T want a shooter like combat like Vindictus.

I would only complain if they change that like some people here want.

So if people complain here, in my eyes it are those that want to turn GW2
into another Vindictus or FF XYZ or whatever.

I totally agree with you Beldin! And, no you did not complain, just expressed your concerns. If Anet turned this into another FFXIV where there are 20+ individual weapon skills per class, that would be the day I quit playing.

I understand your having to deal with the keyboard, altho I was lucky enough to be a secretary in the old days (yes, gals, that’s what we were called) so I knew my way around the kb. And, I do have one of those “newfangled” multi-button mouses which I’m having difficulty learning (lack of brain cells being over 60) LOL . But, I guess us old fogies shouldn’t be playing video games according to others, unless we play the way they think we should play (interesting tho the comments were from someone who doesn’t play anymore). Poppykitten, play the way you want!

That said, I enjoy GW2 because of its ease of play compared to other games, and I would truly hate for it to alter the combat system after all this time.

Corpus Christi.2057:

maha.7902:

He suggests costing endurance and he says there is a lack of depth and no proper sense of risk/reward.

Suggestion #1 is bad, and claims #1 and #2 are wrong.

Why should I entertain them with an actual response if they are going to give ideas that would require a complete overhaul of an already good combat system and they try to make claims which just betray their, either lack of understanding or refusal to accept that risk and reward and depth exist in the current system and they just chose to ignore it?

That’s precisely what I thought you’d respond with.

A) While you are totally entitled to view his suggestion #1. as bad, you are absotulety wrong, by the theory of argumentation as proposed by Aristotle in Rhetoric, with regards to “and claims #1 and #2 are wrong.”.

Why? You may, again, propose your own view, with solid argumentation and not empty, blatant statements “is wrong”. Yet, you can’t judge whether it is “right or wrong”, since what he proposes is not a statement of facts but rather a piece of opinion. Therefore, it cannot be assumed that he misrepresented the facts whatsoever, to which, hypothetically, you would be entitled to respond with “right or wrong” statement ( again, backed up with argumentation as defined by Aristotle in Rhetoric ). What he did was to propose an opinion or view, with which, as with the only thing you were right about – his suggestion #1. – you may have disagreed or agreed with. But you are not entitled by the reason of sheer logic to state that his opinion is factually wrong or right, since, it never presents itself as a statement of fact.

Opinion is a personal observation, and cannot be wrong. it can be agreed with or disagreed with.

Suggestions based on personal opinion, are also not probable. They are either something you agree with, or disagree with. The issue is..some people think " if someone disagrees with me, they are wrong."

Not exactly….

all that need to change is the mob AI.

i’m not sure whether mobs in GW2 cleanse their conditions or share boons, but they need to co-op like they did in GW1.

Nerelith.7360:

Azhure.1857:

Nerelith.7360:

TheDaiBish.9735:

2. I personally like that each weapon has it’s own individual skills (although I wouldn’t say no to more skills tied to the weapon and the ability to swap skills out). It makes the weapon something more than simply a stat-stick and adds a bit of depth to the character customisation. Not only that, in GW1, there were quite a few skills that were tied to a weapon that you couldn’t use with any other weapon type.

2. In MY opinion, having weapon locked skills makes for less customization. When you have hundreds of possible skills, and can load each individually, that means if all you have are 5 “weapn skills” that are freed up and Individual…. you have many more combos… even if it’s just exactly 100..that’s 100C5 possible combinations… not even counting utility skills. 3 mainhand skills + 2 offhand skills or 5 two handed weapon skills… does not mean more customizability, but less.

I’m on the fence on this subject. I would love new skills, new weapons. Would love spvp even more if people didn’t know exactly what I could or couldn’t do based on what weapon(s) they see me running around with. However my main concern, if we had the ability to slot skills of our choosing onto our build template, would be balance. I don’t know how it could be balanced… and if it could – The difficulty would be something I’m not sure ArenaNet is equipped to handle.

They did a good job with Guild Wars, although I really think this is a different Anet from the Anet that produced Guild Wars, maybe this Anet may not be up to the task? I mean they cannot balance the limited set of skills they have now.

Makes me and others wonder if “they” are qualified programers.

Nerelith.7360:

Opinion is a personal observation, and cannot be wrong. it can be agreed with or disagreed with.

If someone, based on personal observation, expresses the opinion that the earth is flat…are they right ?

Ashen.2907:

Nerelith.7360:

Opinion is a personal observation, and cannot be wrong. it can be agreed with or disagreed with.

If someone, based on personal observation, expresses the opinion that the earth is flat…are they right ?

You neede to look up the definitions of Fact and Opinion.

Fact: The earth is not flat.
Opinion: Based on limited information, and personal observation only, and lacking a rudimentary education someone MIGHT say " To me, the earth appears flat"

The former can be said to be right or wrong, The latter cannot, since the person is saying how things appear to them.

The best you can do is tell them that appearances are decieving, you cannot tell them that " the earth does NOT appear flat to you"

I hope this helped.

Im Mudbone.1437:

Nerelith.7360:

They did a good job with Guild Wars, although I really think this is a different Anet from the Anet that produced Guild Wars, maybe this Anet may not be up to the task? I mean they cannot balance the limited set of skills they have now.

Makes me and others wonder if “they” are qualified programers.

What’s programming to do with skill balancing?

Nerelith.7360:

Opinion is a personal observation, and cannot be wrong. it can be agreed with or disagreed with.

I’d have said that an opinion is a personal truth – it doesn’t necessarily need to be based on observation. It’s neither, objectively, right or wrong, unless backed up / challenged with hard factual evidence.

Nerelith.7360:

You neede to look up the definitions of Fact and Opinion.

No, actually I do not. I am quite familiar with the meanings of the words.

Nerelith.7360:

Fact: The earth is not flat.
Opinion: Based on limited information, and personal observation only, and lacking a rudimentary education someone MIGHT say " To me, the earth appears flat"

They might also say, “in my opinion the world is flat.” You did not answer my question. Instead you posited a completely different scenario than the one I questioned. I did not ask if they said, “to me, the earth appears,” anything. I asked if they said, “in my opinion the earth is flat,” would they be right ?

Nerelith.7360:

The former can be said to be right or wrong, The latter cannot, since the person is saying how things appear to them.

Of course, obviously so, but the latter was not a question I asked nor a point I raised.

So much bickering over who is right and who is wrong. Because someone always has to come out on top and be RIGHT, correct? * rolls eyes *

The dungeons need a rework too. Currently they are too easy and boring. Although each dungeon has its unique terrain and design, the overall style/gameplay is the same. Almost every dungeon and every boss are cleared by AOE and spamming skill. Maybe some involved stealth…to pass the mobs. Also being able to revive in dungeons makes them dull and not challenging at all. I suggest at least bring back the death penalty system like that in GW1

Nerelith.7360:

Corpus Christi.2057:

maha.7902:

He suggests costing endurance and he says there is a lack of depth and no proper sense of risk/reward.

Suggestion #1 is bad, and claims #1 and #2 are wrong.

Why should I entertain them with an actual response if they are going to give ideas that would require a complete overhaul of an already good combat system and they try to make claims which just betray their, either lack of understanding or refusal to accept that risk and reward and depth exist in the current system and they just chose to ignore it?

That’s precisely what I thought you’d respond with.

A) While you are totally entitled to view his suggestion #1. as bad, you are absotulety wrong, by the theory of argumentation as proposed by Aristotle in Rhetoric, with regards to “and claims #1 and #2 are wrong.”.

Why? You may, again, propose your own view, with solid argumentation and not empty, blatant statements “is wrong”. Yet, you can’t judge whether it is “right or wrong”, since what he proposes is not a statement of facts but rather a piece of opinion. Therefore, it cannot be assumed that he misrepresented the facts whatsoever, to which, hypothetically, you would be entitled to respond with “right or wrong” statement ( again, backed up with argumentation as defined by Aristotle in Rhetoric ). What he did was to propose an opinion or view, with which, as with the only thing you were right about – his suggestion #1. – you may have disagreed or agreed with. But you are not entitled by the reason of sheer logic to state that his opinion is factually wrong or right, since, it never presents itself as a statement of fact.

Opinion is a personal observation, and cannot be wrong. it can be agreed with or disagreed with.

Suggestions based on personal opinion, are also not probable. They are either something you agree with, or disagree with. The issue is..some people think " if someone disagrees with me, they are wrong."

Not exactly….

Exactly what I tried to point out to maha. One cannot say “your opinion is wrong”.

Nerelith.7360:

The problem as I see it is.. with this you have a sort of countdown…

1 dragon down… 5 left.

1. Either you kill off the dragons one at a time til None are left…or you do Not progress to kill the 6th dragon.

A. You kill off all the dragons One By one til None are left. What do you do then?

B. You never get to kill the 6th drafgon. How does your player-base feel?

It’s like the Dr Who corner the writers wrote themselves Into….

Only 12 Doctors .. that was the story going back to the 70’s…

Then the 12th doctor dies.

A. End the series.

B. Continue wih a 13th Doctor. But that means retconning all those " Only 12 doctors" storylines so that they make sense with a 13th doctor.." oops we were wrong"?

See what I mean?

What do you do if you kill off the 6th elder dragon? Turns out there was a 7th? an 8th? " oops we were wrong"?

i am no writer but I Can think of many ways how this wouldnt a corner at all.

Anet dont have to make us kill all 6 if they dont want us to. They can have us trick the dragons into believing the magic balance has been restored using some asuran contraption and they’ll go back to sleep. We could find a way to make it relatively easy to kill a dragon and have us confront and kill more then 1 dragon per season. killing 3 dragons might cause the others to retreat / hide. We could find a way to trap them in alternative dimension. Hey how about we find a way how to make it seem like the dragons are botting and have dhuum perma ban them to the underworld

If all dragons are killed we do not need a 7th, no where in gw2 does it say we’ll only be fighting dragons, it could be some new foe much like scarlet was after all, she wasnt a dragon and we still had a whole season about her. It could also be an old foe, the mursaat arent dead they could come back (and maybe we’d find what they did to saul D’alessio finally)

Possiblities are endless and the dragons arent an issue storywise they can go with them or they can deviate both options work.