Guild Wars 2

Just saying yknow,,, but i never had any “nothing to do” problems until recently, and thats because lots of fellow guildies are slowly quitting and many of the stuff i do, is usually with them. and they left because of reasons stated in some posts here (added grind, no new areas/expansion, often reusing old content etc) .

(Dont like pugging, for reasons people are obviously aware of.)

But I do agree that what ever promises they made in the manifesto, they certainly cant keep the game up without catering to the… MMO masses. Maybe the game as a sequel went too big for its own good, i did read that GW1 had much smaller playerbase, dedicated though they are. maybe they ought to have made a game meant for a slightly larger/expanded base as a sequel, because i can see why game of this size needs larger amount of people in it to a point of bringing in those wwho would naturally be in opposition to the gw1’s directions.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

What did people do in GW1 once they reached max level?

Started playing the game.

Really. That’s how horizontal progression schemes work.

Nike.2631:

Dark Catalyst.1028:

What did people do in GW1 once they reached max level?

Started playing the game.

Really. That’s how horizontal progression schemes work.

It’s how ANY MMO has worked. The “real game” doesn’t start until max level, the “endgame.”

It’s one of the ways that GW2 tried to be different that was outright rejected by the player base. Even now, players only tend to fill the lower level zones if they’re pretty much drug there by the nose (via living story or farming).

Lord of Rings.5371:

I did not want offend anyone, apologies.

Nevertheless, I don’t understand why the original post was trashed by the forum monitor so quickly. I did not even read most of the responses.

The original vision in the Manifesto is superior in my opinion.

Agreed but obviously we are the minority these days, i believe.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

How come no one brings up the Iteration blog post that Anet posted that spent the entire post talking about how they change things that don’t work, including completely throwing out entire systems if necessary. Seems like a curious omission to me.

• Condition damage caps in PvE making multiple condition users redundant
• Ranger and Necromancer pet AI
• Designing Engineers so that the ultimate prestige item in the game is unlikely to be seen during combat
• Particle spam which makes herd play a melange of color and light rather than a game where you can enjoy seeing what’s happening
• Still cannot filter on armor weight on the TP

Pity they don’t throw out these systems rather than a feature they advertised.

They throw out what they can. They don’t throw out what they can’t. Remove the condition cap, and the game won’t work. Period. It simply won’t work. Calculating that number of conditions on a single large boss, and having to keep track of it will slow down the server to a crawl. Throwing out something means having to replace it with.

As for something they advertised, I don’t believe the manifesto says what most people are saying it says, I don’t believe they “advertised” this game in the way most people are saying they did. I believe that they adertised this game based on dynamic events, personal story that branches, active combat, and great art. There were a handful of quotes, you can count them on one hand, that talked about gear grind or vertical progression. Most of them were answers to questions. That’s not advertising. That’s answering questions.

No one says the game is without problems. Sure it has problems. But saying that Anet advertised something, when all they did was mention it in a couple of interviews is overstatement for the sake of trying to prove a point.

People are very vested in their ideas of where the game should be and where the game should go. There are never any guarantees in any MMO, because on company can say how design decisions will be received until the game goes live.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

What did people do in GW1 once they reached max level?

Levels were nearly meaningless in Guildwars 1, it wasn’t about leveling it was about the game….

We hunted for skills so we were more viable in team based game play.
Followed the story and fought seriously tough creatures because they went higher than level 20.
Searched through dungeons for skins and weapons that we could mod and Materials to make even more epic skins.
Spent hours going through skill builds so we could survive different content. Switched our Classes around so we could use different weapons we found etc.
Hung out with friends in our guild rooms and fought other guilds.

chemiclord.3978:

IndigoSundown.5419:

chemiclord.3978:

They promised. Players bought in… then players left in droves because there was “nothing to do” or “no endgame.” They didn’t want to go back into “newbie zones” for dungeons. They wanted raids. They wanted phat loot. They wanted vertical progression.

GW1 veterans WEREN’T ENOUGH. I’m sorry you hate it; but it’s true.

We’ll never know, because ANet bailed on the cosmetic endgame. Dreary stat boosts without the phat loot and the raids was cheaper to produce.

What I can tell you is from my experience, an initial guild of 20… I’m the only one left. The other 19 got bored because there was no reason to play after they got their exotics. There wasn’t any raids or any better loot to be had, so they left.

You may question the wisdom of catering to those players (I do), but from my experience, they represent the bulk of the MMO market.

From my experience, my initial guild of 50 is down to 1/2 (I’ve got one foot out the door). None of them left due to lack of loot. Most left because they found PvP to be lacking. One left because of Ascended.

How many of the traditional MMO crowd who bought GW2 were willing to give cosmetic progression a try? That’s what we’ll never know, because cosmetic progression was not given the robust options and ease of switching looks that would have made pursuit of multiple looks desirable. There’s also the lack of any prestige in getting most of the looks that are available. This was, I believe, a killer.

IndigoSundown.5419:

chemiclord.3978:

IndigoSundown.5419:

chemiclord.3978:

They promised. Players bought in… then players left in droves because there was “nothing to do” or “no endgame.” They didn’t want to go back into “newbie zones” for dungeons. They wanted raids. They wanted phat loot. They wanted vertical progression.

GW1 veterans WEREN’T ENOUGH. I’m sorry you hate it; but it’s true.

We’ll never know, because ANet bailed on the cosmetic endgame. Dreary stat boosts without the phat loot and the raids was cheaper to produce.

What I can tell you is from my experience, an initial guild of 20… I’m the only one left. The other 19 got bored because there was no reason to play after they got their exotics. There wasn’t any raids or any better loot to be had, so they left.

You may question the wisdom of catering to those players (I do), but from my experience, they represent the bulk of the MMO market.

From my experience, my initial guild of 50 is down to 1/2 (I’ve got one foot out the door). None of them left due to lack of loot. Most left because they found PvP to be lacking. One left because of Ascended.

How many of the traditional MMO crowd who bought GW2 were willing to give cosmetic progression a try? That’s what we’ll never know, because cosmetic progression was not given the robust options and ease of switching looks that would have made pursuit of multiple looks desirable. There’s also the lack of any prestige in getting most of the looks that are available. This was, I believe, a killer.

We don’t know. But the forums back then, even the forums I moderated, were a bastion of there’s nothing to do at level cap. People had nothing to “work for”, and they were used to that.

I remember a huge drop off in population before Fractals came out and the game was only a couple of months old. I’m not sure how long I’d have waited before making drastic changes.

Vayne.8563:

No one says the game is without problems. Sure it has problems. But saying that Anet advertised something, when all they did was mention it in a couple of interviews is overstatement for the sake of trying to prove a point.

Sorry, when a game development representative talks to a fansite while the game is in development, they are advertising the game. That’s how these companies advertise their games. Maybe you were extremely casual about advertising your business(es), but that doesn’t mean companies spending millions of dollars to produce a game are.

Vayne.8563:

We don’t know. But the forums back then, even the forums I moderated, were a bastion of there’s nothing to do at level cap. People had nothing to “work for”, and they were used to that.

I remember that, also. However, something to work for could have been hard-to-get cosmetic options just as well as stat increases.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

No one says the game is without problems. Sure it has problems. But saying that Anet advertised something, when all they did was mention it in a couple of interviews is overstatement for the sake of trying to prove a point.

Sorry, when a game development representative talks to a fansite while the game is in development, they are advertising the game. That’s how these companies advertise their games. Maybe you were extremely casual about advertising your business(es), but that doesn’t mean companies spending millions of dollars to produce a game are.

Whether or not the logistics are the same, the end result is that it sets expectations, and expectations are what sells games these days, not necessarily quality or execution. It’s not so difficult to see why many would hold developers accountable for the expectations they set after incidents like Mass Effect 3 (it wasn’t just the ending that was poorly done) and Aliens: CM.

The fact that players bring up these threads means that although expectations have been betrayed there’s always room for redemption.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

No one says the game is without problems. Sure it has problems. But saying that Anet advertised something, when all they did was mention it in a couple of interviews is overstatement for the sake of trying to prove a point.

Sorry, when a game development representative talks to a fansite while the game is in development, they are advertising the game. That’s how these companies advertise their games. Maybe you were extremely casual about advertising your business(es), but that doesn’t mean companies spending millions of dollars to produce a game are.

The game is advertised on several main points. Let me ask you a few questions.

1. Does anyone expect MMOs to be static and not change?
2. What percentage of time did the devs spend in talking about these items specifically. From recollection, they spent FAR MORE time trying to sell us on energy potions before they removed energy potions from the game. It doesn’t mean they were advertising energy potions. A statement of intent is just that, a statement of intent. If something doesn’t work, and you can fix it, you fix it. The energy thing wasn’t working and they made a drastic change. But there’s no one on this forum saying that Anet advertised energy potions and they lied. Not one person. Because it was a change people liked.

So changes people like don’t affect how the game was “advertised” but changes you don’t like do? I’m not sure how to read that.

It all has to do with how much time they spent talking about each thing. This game was sold on dynamic events, personal story, dungeons, and stuff like no trinity. That was first and foremost on their website.

You couldn’t go to their website and look around and find articles about vertical progression or gear grind, because it wasn’t what they sold the game on.

They did answer some questions about it. That’s not advertising, even if you want to use the word.

No one is denying things changed. I’m simply saying people took four or five lines out of tens of thousands of lines and they focus on those lines to the exclusion of all else, as if this is what Anet was focused on.

If you look at everything said, and look at the percentage of time they devoted to the concept of vertical progression, I don’t see how you can say the game was sold based on that.

Dynamic events, sure. It was the big push. Personal story, sure. That was the big push. If those were removed that would have been a major change to the way they sold the game. Something mentioned in a couple of interviews? Not so much.

Vayne.8563:

We don’t know. But the forums back then,

But the forums are just a minority of the playerbase.

After all, that’s what everyone says now in order to dismiss any criticism of the game that is brought up. Even you have said as such. Why do the forums matter back then, but not now?

Because population drop? Come on over to my server. We’re the only server to not have any Tea Kettle kills. Tell me how great and vast our population must be and how it hasn’t dropped, good old DR.

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

We don’t know. But the forums back then,

But the forums are just a minority of the playerbase.

After all, that’s what everyone says now in order to dismiss any criticism of the game that is brought up. Even you have said as such. Why do the forums matter back then, but not now?

Because population drop? Come on over to my server. We’re the only server to not have any Tea Kettle kills. Tell me how great and vast our population must be and how it hasn’t dropped, good old DR.

You don’t have a clue as to the population of the game. No one does except Anet. But Anet didn’t make this decision lightly.

Are you suggesting the game population was fine, everything was going swell and so Anet drastically changed direction, over night? Because that doesn’t ring true to me.

I only know what I see on forums, but Anet has actually data. So me saying I think Anet should have done this or that is pointless, because they have more information than I do….which is all I’m really saying.

We can all guess. We can all think. We can all predict.

But Anet has the numbers.

Vayne.8563:

You don’t have a clue as to the population of the game. No one does except Anet.

And yet you always put yours forward as fact, without numbers.

Vayne.8563:

But Anet didn’t make this decision likely.

Oh, I think they did.

Vayne.8563:

Are you suggesting the game population was fine, everything was going swell and so Anet drastically changed direction, over night?

No. Rather, I suggest that things may not have going entirely as planned and instead of actually giving the game some time to properly grow, Anet made a horribly snap decision without truly looking into the actual data.

I think they hit the big ol’ PANIC button without actually thinking through just what that would mean and the consequences it would have.

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

You don’t have a clue as to the population of the game. No one does except Anet.

And yet you always put yours forward as fact, without numbers.

Vayne.8563:

But Anet didn’t make this decision likely.

Oh, I think they did.

Vayne.8563:

Are you suggesting the game population was fine, everything was going swell and so Anet drastically changed direction, over night?

No. Rather, I suggest that things may not have going entirely as planned and instead of actually giving the game some time to properly grow, Anet made a horribly snap decision without truly looking into the actual data.

I think they hit the big ol’ PANIC button without actually thinking through just what that would mean and the consequences it would have.

You may be right about that, but without numbers, you simply don’t know. I’m not putting anything forward as fact, except for the fact that this lack of vertical progression took up only a tiny tiny percentage of the amount of information Anet released about Guild Wars 2. That’s a fact.

And I’m relatively certain that the manifesto mentioned nothing about gear grind at all, or vertical progression.

People hear what they want to hear, or what they expect to hear.

Vayne.8563:

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

You don’t have a clue as to the population of the game. No one does except Anet.

And yet you always put yours forward as fact, without numbers.

Vayne.8563:

But Anet didn’t make this decision likely.

Oh, I think they did.

Vayne.8563:

Are you suggesting the game population was fine, everything was going swell and so Anet drastically changed direction, over night?

No. Rather, I suggest that things may not have going entirely as planned and instead of actually giving the game some time to properly grow, Anet made a horribly snap decision without truly looking into the actual data.

I think they hit the big ol’ PANIC button without actually thinking through just what that would mean and the consequences it would have.

You may be right about that, but without numbers, you simply don’t know. I’m not putting anything forward as fact, except for the fact that this lack of vertical progression took up only a tiny tiny percentage of the amount of information Anet released about Guild Wars 2. That’s a fact.

And I’m relatively certain that the manifesto mentioned nothing about gear grind at all, or vertical progression.

People hear what they want to hear, or what they expect to hear.

It mentions both.

Entire paragraphs quoted for context:

So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

Finally, since combat is such a core part of the gameplay of any MMO, we’ve put a lot of emphasis into rethinking combat. So much of traditional MMO combat is rote and repetitive. You execute the same strategy over and over again, just augmented over time with better and better gear. After a while it starts to feel like you’re playing a spreadsheet. Combat needs to be about making creative choices, and it needs to feel immediate, active, and visceral. So we’ve put a huge focus on strengthening our combat, giving the player limitless choices, and providing the thrill and joy of being in combat.

Vayne.8563:

I’m not putting anything forward as fact, except for the fact that this lack of vertical progression took up only a tiny tiny percentage of the amount of information Anet released about Guild Wars 2. That’s a fact.

You know what else is a fact? The percentage that information took up is meaningless. It’s something that people really latched on to when it came to their decision to purchase this game. It’s one of the things that helped push people to purchase this game.

That’s a fact.

Vayne.8563:

And I’m relatively certain that the manifesto mentioned nothing about gear grind at all, or vertical progression.

I’m not even going to get into this part. I’ve seen what happens when people try to discuss the manifesto with you. It never ends. It just devolves into a worthless debate of he said she said, and at the end you go on your merry way continuing to defend decisions that have hurt and divided this game and its community.

Again, I invite you to DR. The server that is eternally among the lowest in WvW. The server that, last I checked, still hasn’t killed Tea Kettle since the big ol’ revamp.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

What did people do in GW1 once they reached max level?

First and foremost:

Gw1, unlike Gw2, released the PvP alongside the game.

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

I’m not putting anything forward as fact, except for the fact that this lack of vertical progression took up only a tiny tiny percentage of the amount of information Anet released about Guild Wars 2. That’s a fact.

You know what else is a fact? The percentage that information took up is meaningless. It’s something that people really latched on to when it came to their decision to purchase this game. It’s one of the things that helped push people to purchase this game.

That’s a fact.

Vayne.8563:

And I’m relatively certain that the manifesto mentioned nothing about gear grind at all, or vertical progression.

I’m not even going to get into this part. I’ve seen what happens when people try to discuss the manifesto with you. It never ends. It just devolves into a worthless debate of he said she said, and at the end you go on your merry way continuing to defend decisions that have hurt and divided this game and its community.

Again, I invite you to DR. The server that is eternally among the lowest in WvW. The server that, last I checked, still hasn’t killed Tea Kettle since the big ol’ revamp.

WoW has low pop servers too. Not sure what this intends to prove. And there really isn’t anything to debate.

The video manifesto, the one people keep quoting, mentions neither gear grind nor vertical progression directly.

So what exactly is to debate?

We know for a fact that Anet didn’t have gear progression at launch and we know for a fact that that situation changed a couple of months after the game was released.

Those are the facts. Everything else is supposition.

manifestos are the things of the past….

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

You don’t have a clue as to the population of the game. No one does except Anet.

And yet you always put yours forward as fact, without numbers.

Vayne.8563:

But Anet didn’t make this decision likely.

Oh, I think they did.

Vayne.8563:

Are you suggesting the game population was fine, everything was going swell and so Anet drastically changed direction, over night?

No. Rather, I suggest that things may not have going entirely as planned and instead of actually giving the game some time to properly grow, Anet made a horribly snap decision without truly looking into the actual data.

I think they hit the big ol’ PANIC button without actually thinking through just what that would mean and the consequences it would have.

You may be right about that, but without numbers, you simply don’t know. I’m not putting anything forward as fact, except for the fact that this lack of vertical progression took up only a tiny tiny percentage of the amount of information Anet released about Guild Wars 2. That’s a fact.

And I’m relatively certain that the manifesto mentioned nothing about gear grind at all, or vertical progression.

People hear what they want to hear, or what they expect to hear.

It mentions both.

Entire paragraphs quoted for context:

So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

Finally, since combat is such a core part of the gameplay of any MMO, we’ve put a lot of emphasis into rethinking combat. So much of traditional MMO combat is rote and repetitive. You execute the same strategy over and over again, just augmented over time with better and better gear. After a while it starts to feel like you’re playing a spreadsheet. Combat needs to be about making creative choices, and it needs to feel immediate, active, and visceral. So we’ve put a huge focus on strengthening our combat, giving the player limitless choices, and providing the thrill and joy of being in combat.

First of all, in this regard the manifesto is still true. That is to say, Guild Wars 2 doesn’t force you go grind because, with the exception of high level fractals, you can do all the content in lower level gear…which is not the case in most MMOs. In fact, gear in this game is far less significant than it is in most MMOs.

Likewise, in most MMOs the combat isn’t dynamic. You’re not moving around reacting. You’re using an established rotation that never changes.

So from what you’ve posted here, I have no problem with what Anet has said.

Vayne.8563:

WoW has low pop servers too.

Oh, but haven’t you heard? Guild Wars 2 has no low pop servers!

That was sarcasm, by the way.

Vayne.8563:

Not sure what this intends to prove.

That the population isn’t all roses and sunshine as you always like to claim it is.

Vayne.8563:

And there really isn’t anything to debate.

Then stop posting.

Vayne.8563:

We know for a fact that Anet didn’t have gear progression at launch and we know for a fact that that situation changed a couple of months after the game was released.

Those are the facts. Everything else is supposition.

So then your constant claim that the game wasn’t doing well and the sudden shift was necessary is also supposition and guesswork? Cool. Thanks for finally admitting it.

Vayne.8563:

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

I’m not putting anything forward as fact, except for the fact that this lack of vertical progression took up only a tiny tiny percentage of the amount of information Anet released about Guild Wars 2. That’s a fact.

You know what else is a fact? The percentage that information took up is meaningless. It’s something that people really latched on to when it came to their decision to purchase this game. It’s one of the things that helped push people to purchase this game.

That’s a fact.

Vayne.8563:

And I’m relatively certain that the manifesto mentioned nothing about gear grind at all, or vertical progression.

I’m not even going to get into this part. I’ve seen what happens when people try to discuss the manifesto with you. It never ends. It just devolves into a worthless debate of he said she said, and at the end you go on your merry way continuing to defend decisions that have hurt and divided this game and its community.

Again, I invite you to DR. The server that is eternally among the lowest in WvW. The server that, last I checked, still hasn’t killed Tea Kettle since the big ol’ revamp.

WoW has low pop servers too. Not sure what this intends to prove. And there really isn’t anything to debate.

The video manifesto, the one people keep quoting, mentions neither gear grind nor vertical progression directly.

So what exactly is to debate?

We know for a fact that Anet didn’t have gear progression at launch and we know for a fact that that situation changed a couple of months after the game was released.

Those are the facts. Everything else is supposition.

There isn’t anything to debate.

If you like it, play it. If not, don’t. Speak your mind with your playing habits. Developers start noticing when populations drop, as seen from some of the steps they have taken recently.

If you want to get involved in trying to change the game, try the CDI threads…they might change things from the input there…or not, who knows.

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

WoW has low pop servers too.

Oh, but haven’t you heard? Guild Wars 2 has no low pop servers!

That was sarcasm, by the way.

Vayne.8563:

Not sure what this intends to prove.

That the population isn’t all roses and sunshine as you always like to claim it is.

Vayne.8563:

And there really isn’t anything to debate.

Then stop posting.

Vayne.8563:

The video manifesto, the one people keep quoting, mentions neither gear grind nor vertical progression directly.

And then there’s killcannon’s post…

But do go on.

Vayne.8563:

We know for a fact that Anet didn’t have gear progression at launch and we know for a fact that that situation changed a couple of months after the game was released.

Those are the facts. Everything else is supposition.

So then your constant claim that the game wasn’t doing well and the sudden shift was necessary is also supposition and guesswork? Cool. Thanks for finally admitting it.

Now where did you see me say that the population is sunshine and roses? I said, and have always said, that my server is busy and I’ve also said that only Anet has the numbers. I’ve maintained no one but Anet knows those numbers. You can go back as far as you like, and that’s what I’ve said. It’s usually in response to other people saying the game isn’t doing well, which they can’t know…they can only guess at.

The conversation is simple and it’s being repeated so this will be my last post on the subject. You can have the last word if you want.

I’ve already answered Killcannon’s post and I don’t have a problem with what’s quoted there. This game is significantly different from other MMOs. Know how I know? I don’t like most other MMOs and I do like this one. So it would be hard to prove they were the same.

I also see people from other MMOs all the time coming over to this MMO and telling me how different it is. One new player from WoW in my guild today commented on how different this game was than WoW, when he didn’t realize we could all harvest the same node. When he didn’t realize we can all get experience and loot for killing something.

The combination of factors such as that make the manifesto a truth statement, not a false one.

The fact that people have fixated on gear grind as the only basis for comparison doesn’t factor into the argument at all.

PVE meta Zerker Cooldown spam. I suppose you can be creative with the order of the skills spammed? Not that the game’s combat design engages creativity anyway.

The fact that ANet said needed to add a new tier gear to engage players to play implicates they failed to create an MMO that avoids the trapping of WoW and its clones. Because that’s part of what people hate about MMOs, chasing superficial carrots laid before rather than having a meaningful experience. Or is zerging around like a zombie somehow meaningful? If it is I may as well just sit around and do nothing because that would just as meaningful.

Designers have no say when it comes to money. Their bosses bosses don’t care as much about PR as they care about money. If that means changing what makes them money… they do it… and then wonder months later why no one wants to play their game. It is risk vs. reward. They have daily meeting about this very thing, and what they can get away with.

The only way to make them change their methods is to stop playing. Tell people not to play the game. Once the numbers drop, anet will release manifesto-ish content to get you to come back. You return, enjoy it while it lasts then leave again. Repeat this cycle until you die.

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

Vayne.8563:

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

You don’t have a clue as to the population of the game. No one does except Anet.

And yet you always put yours forward as fact, without numbers.

Vayne.8563:

But Anet didn’t make this decision likely.

Oh, I think they did.

Vayne.8563:

Are you suggesting the game population was fine, everything was going swell and so Anet drastically changed direction, over night?

No. Rather, I suggest that things may not have going entirely as planned and instead of actually giving the game some time to properly grow, Anet made a horribly snap decision without truly looking into the actual data.

I think they hit the big ol’ PANIC button without actually thinking through just what that would mean and the consequences it would have.

You may be right about that, but without numbers, you simply don’t know. I’m not putting anything forward as fact, except for the fact that this lack of vertical progression took up only a tiny tiny percentage of the amount of information Anet released about Guild Wars 2. That’s a fact.

And I’m relatively certain that the manifesto mentioned nothing about gear grind at all, or vertical progression.

People hear what they want to hear, or what they expect to hear.

It mentions both.

Entire paragraphs quoted for context:

So if you love MMORPGs, you should check out Guild Wars 2. But if you hate traditional MMORPGs, then you should really check out Guild Wars 2. Because, like Guild Wars before it, GW2 doesn’t fall into the traps of traditional MMORPGs. It doesn’t suck your life away and force you onto a grinding treadmill; it doesn’t make you spend hours preparing to have fun rather than just having fun; and of course, it doesn’t have a monthly fee.

Finally, since combat is such a core part of the gameplay of any MMO, we’ve put a lot of emphasis into rethinking combat. So much of traditional MMO combat is rote and repetitive. You execute the same strategy over and over again, just augmented over time with better and better gear. After a while it starts to feel like you’re playing a spreadsheet. Combat needs to be about making creative choices, and it needs to feel immediate, active, and visceral. So we’ve put a huge focus on strengthening our combat, giving the player limitless choices, and providing the thrill and joy of being in combat.

First of all, in this regard the manifesto is still true. That is to say, Guild Wars 2 doesn’t force you go grind because, with the exception of high level fractals, you can do all the content in lower level gear…which is not the case in most MMOs. In fact, gear in this game is far less significant than it is in most MMOs.

Likewise, in most MMOs the combat isn’t dynamic. You’re not moving around reacting. You’re using an established rotation that never changes.

So from what you’ve posted here, I have no problem with what Anet has said.

I don’t care one way or another, unlike some, I have no strong feelings about the manifesto.

To get BiS gear…either cosmetic or stats there is a lot of repetitive gameplay, whether that is grind or not to a player is subjective. MMO’s in particular, are competitive games. If you’re not trying to be the best you can…then I dunno.

And combat is the same thing over and over again, just like any other MMO. There are accepted strategies, builds, ways to go about combat. The only thing that augments combat here, is again, gear.

They talked about both gear grind (wasn’t going to be included. is in fact included), and vertical progression (same). Whether or not it’s “necessary” doesn’t matter. It’s in there and they talked about it.

Just wanted to say they mentioned it. Continue your pointless debate.

Dark Catalyst.1028:

What did people do in GW1 once they reached max level?

PvP content.

Random arena’s
Team arena’s
Hero arena’s
Faction battles
Faction battle’s apecific maps.
GvG
Hall of hero’s
Hero’s ascend
Costume brawl

A lot these were eventually deleted because balancing to every aspect was becoming problematic. However despite this though there was years and years of varying different Pvp a player could involve themselves in.

CEDWYN.5392:

Designers have no say when it comes to money. Their bosses bosses don’t care as much about PR as they care about money. If that means changing what makes them money… they do it… and then wonder months later why no one wants to play their game. It is risk vs. reward. They have daily meeting about this very thing, and what they can get away with.

The only way to make them change their methods is to stop playing. Tell people not to play the game. Once the numbers drop, anet will release manifesto-ish content to get you to come back. You return, enjoy it while it lasts then leave again. Repeat this cycle until you die.

Though this hints at a sad truth in corporate-run game development, some companies, like Valve and Riot, are clever enough to work the give and take into a relationship that’s highly beneficial to both parties.

Vayne.8563:

It’s usually in response to other people saying the game isn’t doing well, which they can’t know…they can only guess at.

They’re going off of things like how their own server is doing. What the general consensus is within their server. How their server feels. Etc. etc.

Vayne.8563:

The conversation is simple and it’s being repeated so this will be my last post on the subject.

I’ll believe it when I see it.

Vayne.8563:

This game is significantly different from other MMOs. Know how I know? I don’t like most other MMOs and I do like this one. So it would be hard to prove they were the same.

And this game ultimately isn’t all that different from other MMOs. Know how I know? I don’t like most other MMOs and I’ve stopped liking this one, too. So it would be hard to prove they weren’t the same.

Vayne.8563:

The combination of factors such as that make the manifesto a truth statement, not a false one.

They make it a truth to you. They make it a truth in your eyes.

But my experiences with the game and with people I’ve shown the game to show me otherwise.

Vayne.8563:

The fact that people have fixated on gear grind as the only basis for comparison doesn’t factor into the argument at all.

So we’re going to ignore how alt-unfriendly the game has become? Or how about the time gating. Or how about how raids are slowly cropping their way in? Dailies? Monthlies?

You’re really going to argue that there are no other comparisons to other MMOs?

And uh, the gear grind is actually a big deal since that’s one of the core features of EVERY OTHER MMO OUT THERE. So yeah, it factors in. It factors in a whole kittening lot.

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

It’s usually in response to other people saying the game isn’t doing well, which they can’t know…they can only guess at.

They’re going off of things like how their own server is doing. What the general consensus is within their server. How their server feels. Etc. etc.

Vayne.8563:

The conversation is simple and it’s being repeated so this will be my last post on the subject.

I’ll believe it when I see it.

Vayne.8563:

This game is significantly different from other MMOs. Know how I know? I don’t like most other MMOs and I do like this one. So it would be hard to prove they were the same.

And this game ultimately isn’t all that different from other MMOs. Know how I know? I don’t like most other MMOs and I’ve stopped liking this one, too. So it would be hard to prove they weren’t the same.

Vayne.8563:

The combination of factors such as that make the manifesto a truth statement, not a false one.

They make it a truth to you. They make it a truth in your eyes.

But my experiences with the game and with people I’ve shown the game to show me otherwise.

Vayne.8563:

The fact that people have fixated on gear grind as the only basis for comparison doesn’t factor into the argument at all.

So we’re going to ignore how alt-unfriendly the game has become? Or how about the time gating. Or how about how raids are slowly cropping their way in? Dailies? Monthlies?

You’re really going to argue that there are no other comparisons to other MMOs?

And uh, the gear grind is actually a big deal since that’s one of the core features of EVERY OTHER MMO OUT THERE. So yeah, it factors in. It factors in a whole kittening lot.

This game is way different than most MMO’s.

What I think that most people dislike though is how different again it is from GW1.
Dunno, though it’s much closer to GW1 than it ever has been to WoW……for whatever that’s worth.

killcannon.2576:

I don’t care one way or another, unlike some, I have no strong feelings about the manifesto.

To get BiS gear…either cosmetic or stats there is a lot of repetitive gameplay, whether that is grind or not to a player is subjective. MMO’s in particular, are competitive games. If you’re not trying to be the best you can…then I dunno.

And combat is the same thing over and over again, just like any other MMO. There are accepted strategies, builds, ways to go about combat. The only thing that augments combat here, is again, gear.

They talked about both gear grind (wasn’t going to be included. is in fact included), and vertical progression (same). Whether or not it’s “necessary” doesn’t matter. It’s in there and they talked about it.

Just wanted to say they mentioned it. Continue your pointless debate.

I played Rift. I had pretty much all of my skills macros to two keys. The macro handled 99% of the combat. I had no active dodge. I had no active anything since most of my spells rooted me. I’m sorry you can’t see a difference between this combat and the other, but the difference is night and day.

High level fractals don’t let you spam one, unless a whole lot of people are carrying you. Open world stuff was never going to be hard hard, because why would it be. But this game’s combat is so far different from WoW’s and Rift’s and SWToRs…simply the introduction of an active dodge is a huge difference. You can not believe it if you want, but many many people do like the combat in this game more than the combat in traditional mmos.

And I didn’t say Anet NEVER mentioned gear grind. I said the percentage of the mention of gear grind doesn’t equate to advertising the game or selling the game based on it. It’s a different statement. I said Anet mentioned gear grind and vertical progression a handful of times.

You pointed out one of them. It’s a tiny, tiny percentage of the literature and information they provided. If someone were to get all that literature and graph it and compare it to how much they talked about dyanmic events, personal story and dynamic combat, you’d undoubtedly see that I’m right about that.

As for my argument being pointless? That’s a matter of opinion. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to enter a thread talking about the manifesto and talk about how most people misinterpret it, particularly the video manifesto, as well as how people exaagerate the importance of the conversations Anet had about it, considering how rarely it was talked about.

You may have talked about it. Anet spent very little time talking about it.

CEDWYN.5392:

The only way to make them change their methods is to stop playing. Tell people not to play the game. Once the numbers drop, anet will release manifesto-ish content to get you to come back. You return, enjoy it while it lasts then leave again. Repeat this cycle until you die.

One can however assume that the reason they drifted away a bit from the manifesto (which still is a statement of intention, not 100% truth) was due to the fact that people stopped playing and thus they had to change something in order to keep the game alive.

Building a game solely for the mindset of GW1 players would not work today, and it definitely wouldn’t work to keep a massive game such as GW2 alive.

Regardless of all the to’s and fro’s about the manifesto, it’s pretty clear there’s still a large amount of ill feeling around it. Some people still feel disappointed and let down about it, still feel like they were bait and switched and still hanker after the game they thought the manifesto was describing.

it’s become the focal point for what many perceive to be the failings of the game, even if that’s not always the case.

Because it’s people’s feelings and expectations that have been expressed it’s rare facts or simple ‘it was an expression of wishes and it was bound to change’ statements will ever be enough.

I feel that those feelings ought to be dealt with by Arenanet , directly, compassionately and with understanding otherwise I fear the manifesto will continue to be a rock around the games neck for years to come and in my view will continue to suck players and potential customers away.

The manifesto and what it represents to some is an open wound in the community and perhaps it’s time to start healing it

Vayne.8563:

killcannon.2576:

I don’t care one way or another, unlike some, I have no strong feelings about the manifesto.

To get BiS gear…either cosmetic or stats there is a lot of repetitive gameplay, whether that is grind or not to a player is subjective. MMO’s in particular, are competitive games. If you’re not trying to be the best you can…then I dunno.

And combat is the same thing over and over again, just like any other MMO. There are accepted strategies, builds, ways to go about combat. The only thing that augments combat here, is again, gear.

They talked about both gear grind (wasn’t going to be included. is in fact included), and vertical progression (same). Whether or not it’s “necessary” doesn’t matter. It’s in there and they talked about it.

Just wanted to say they mentioned it. Continue your pointless debate.

I played Rift. I had pretty much all of my skills macros to two keys. The macro handled 99% of the combat. I had no active dodge. I had no active anything since most of my spells rooted me. I’m sorry you can’t see a difference between this combat and the other, but the difference is night and day.

High level fractals don’t let you spam one, unless a whole lot of people are carrying you. Open world stuff was never going to be hard hard, because why would it be. But this game’s combat is so far different from WoW’s and Rift’s and SWToRs…simply the introduction of an active dodge is a huge difference. You can not believe it if you want, but many many people do like the combat in this game more than the combat in traditional mmos.

And I didn’t say Anet NEVER mentioned gear grind. I said the percentage of the mention of gear grind doesn’t equate to advertising the game or selling the game based on it. It’s a different statement. I said Anet mentioned gear grind and vertical progression a handful of times.

You pointed out one of them. It’s a tiny, tiny percentage of the literature and information they provided. If someone were to get all that literature and graph it and compare it to how much they talked about dyanmic events, personal story and dynamic combat, you’d undoubtedly see that I’m right about that.

As for my argument being pointless? That’s a matter of opinion. I think it’s perfectly acceptable to enter a thread talking about the manifesto and talk about how most people misinterpret it, particularly the video manifesto, as well as how people exaagerate the importance of the conversations Anet had about it, considering how rarely it was talked about.

You may have talked about it. Anet spent very little time talking about it.

It’s pointless because you or them are not going to change anyone’s mind who feels betrayed/ doesn’t feel betrayed by marketing materials.

Anet doesn’t need you to defend their honor. Honestly, you do more harm than good.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

Shanaeri Rynale.6897:

Regardless of all the to’s and fro’s about the manifesto, it’s pretty clear there’s still a large amount of ill feeling around it. Some people still feel disappointed and let down about it, still feel like they were bait and switched and still hanker after the game they thought the manifesto was describing.

it’s become the focal point for what many perceive to be the failings of the game, even if that’s not always the case.

Because it’s people’s feelings and expectations that have been expressed it’s rare facts or simple ‘it was an expression of wishes and it was bound to change’ statements will ever be enough.

I feel that those feelings ought to be dealt with by Arenanet , directly, compassionately and with understanding otherwise I fear the manifesto will continue to be a rock around the games neck for years to come and in my view will continue to suck players and potential customers away.

The manifesto and what it represents to some is an open wound in the community and perhaps it’s time to start healing it

How would you like Anet to deal with this?

They offered refunds to people who didn’t like the change and gave refunds for people, even after they played the game for six months. That is when the ascended gear was introduced a year ago. A whole year.

People are still talking about this. Those who didn’t like it could have gotten a full refund, even after playing the game for months.

Those who didn’t mind it, or wanted to see were able to keep playing. Anet has already said what will happen going forward and in fact, even back then said there will be a new tier of gear added, namely ascended gear. Obviously they don’t want to promise that will never happen again, because they didn’t necessarily expect it to happen the first time. You can’t make promises you can’t guarantee you can keep.

So four years now after the original manifesto video was released and a year plus after ascended items were released, what should Anet say?

Vayne.8563:

Shanaeri Rynale.6897:

Regardless of all the to’s and fro’s about the manifesto, it’s pretty clear there’s still a large amount of ill feeling around it. Some people still feel disappointed and let down about it, still feel like they were bait and switched and still hanker after the game they thought the manifesto was describing.

it’s become the focal point for what many perceive to be the failings of the game, even if that’s not always the case.

Because it’s people’s feelings and expectations that have been expressed it’s rare facts or simple ‘it was an expression of wishes and it was bound to change’ statements will ever be enough.

I feel that those feelings ought to be dealt with by Arenanet , directly, compassionately and with understanding otherwise I fear the manifesto will continue to be a rock around the games neck for years to come and in my view will continue to suck players and potential customers away.

The manifesto and what it represents to some is an open wound in the community and perhaps it’s time to start healing it

How would you like Anet to deal with this?

They offered refunds to people who didn’t like the change and gave refunds for people, even after they played the game for six months. That is when the ascended gear was introduced a year ago. A whole year.

People are still talking about this. Those who didn’t like it could have gotten a full refund, even after playing the game for months.

Those who didn’t mind it, or wanted to see were able to keep playing. Anet has already said what will happen going forward and in fact, even back then said there will be a new tier of gear added, namely ascended gear. Obviously they don’t want to promise that will never happen again, because they didn’t necessarily expect it to happen the first time. You can’t make promises you can’t guarantee you can keep.

So four years now after the original manifesto video was released and a year plus after ascended items were released, what should Anet say?

Say sorry. Offering refunds, stating that stuff changed isn’t the same as actually showing remorse and regret over something. To some it read like it a stroppy ‘well you don’t like it! take your money back we don’t care’.

It reeks of hubris.

To admit something would allow people to move on, accept what’s done is done and would imho restore a lot of trust and faith that people lost.

For example. in reply to a question about the manifesto at Eurogamer 2013
“Still hold core values but had to make some adjustments during development. Sometimes we have to stray away from what we have said in the past. "

There’s no sign of regret, or dealing with how players felt about it. Now look at what they could have said

“We really wanted to deliver on our manifesto promises, and for a long time it looked like we really could. Then we hit a number of snag’s we just couldn’t find away around and we had to change it. I know people were disappointed, a lot of us were too but y’know sometimes it just doesn’t work out and we’re sorry for it.”

So what should they admit?

“Hello, we are a company, and the model we envisioned in our manifesto would not let the game survive nor make us enough money to be worth all the time and effort spent on it, therefore we made changes to interest a bigger audience”?

No matter what they say or do people will complain.
But the main issue is that people refuse to understand what a manifesto actually is.

On the subject of GW1 vs GW2 and “what to do” GW1 had a wide array of skills to find. It was a fun game to try out new build combinations and new synergistic setups. The combat was fun, deep, engaging and interesting. GW2 combat is too simple, too tied to gear (expensive to try new things), few skills, few interesting teamplay & counter mechanics, and the exact same problems of viability exist but now there are far fewer options. It is a less fun game in my opinion. GW1 could be played for the sake of the fun combat alone, GW2 has dull combat.

Shanaeri Rynale.6897:

Vayne.8563:

Shanaeri Rynale.6897:

Regardless of all the to’s and fro’s about the manifesto, it’s pretty clear there’s still a large amount of ill feeling around it. Some people still feel disappointed and let down about it, still feel like they were bait and switched and still hanker after the game they thought the manifesto was describing.

it’s become the focal point for what many perceive to be the failings of the game, even if that’s not always the case.

Because it’s people’s feelings and expectations that have been expressed it’s rare facts or simple ‘it was an expression of wishes and it was bound to change’ statements will ever be enough.

I feel that those feelings ought to be dealt with by Arenanet , directly, compassionately and with understanding otherwise I fear the manifesto will continue to be a rock around the games neck for years to come and in my view will continue to suck players and potential customers away.

The manifesto and what it represents to some is an open wound in the community and perhaps it’s time to start healing it

How would you like Anet to deal with this?

They offered refunds to people who didn’t like the change and gave refunds for people, even after they played the game for six months. That is when the ascended gear was introduced a year ago. A whole year.

People are still talking about this. Those who didn’t like it could have gotten a full refund, even after playing the game for months.

Those who didn’t mind it, or wanted to see were able to keep playing. Anet has already said what will happen going forward and in fact, even back then said there will be a new tier of gear added, namely ascended gear. Obviously they don’t want to promise that will never happen again, because they didn’t necessarily expect it to happen the first time. You can’t make promises you can’t guarantee you can keep.

So four years now after the original manifesto video was released and a year plus after ascended items were released, what should Anet say?

Say sorry. Offering refunds, stating that stuff changed isn’t the same as actually showing remorse and regret over something. To some it read like it a stroppy ‘well you don’t like it! take your money back we don’t care’.

It reeks of hubris.

To admit something would allow people to move on, accept what’s done is done and would imho restore a lot of trust and faith that people lost.

For example. in reply to a question about the manifesto at Eurogamer 2013
“Still hold core values but had to make some adjustments during development. Sometimes we have to stray away from what we have said in the past. "

There’s no sign of regret, or dealing with how players felt about it. Now look at what they could have said

“We really wanted to deliver on our manifesto promises, and for a long time it looked like we really could. Then we hit a number of snag’s we just couldn’t find away around and we had to change it. I know people were disappointed, a lot of us were too but y’know sometimes it just doesn’t work out and we’re sorry for it.”

Companies, for the most part, don’t do that. Unless they do something completely ludicrous like selling a monocle for $90 in the cash shop, it’s just not what they do. They DID offer refunds.

They also said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game but we didn’t have time to include it at launch. You may or may not believe that, but they did say it.

But an apology isn’t going to cut it. It won’t put a gear cap back in the game and if they apologize that’s the next step. If they’re really sorry, people will say, they should put it back to the way it was.

Let’s pretend, as an argument, that the game wasn’t doing well and they had to make this change. What company is going to say, sorry the game isn’t doing well?

This isn’t a person we’re dealing with, but a company, that has to look after it’s own interests. And I agree they kitten ed off a lot of people, we’ll never really know how many.

They offered refunds, they tried to explain, they didn’t apologize because that might have done as much damage as good.

If you can’t live with gear progression an apology achieves very little. If you can live with gear progression, you’d still be here.

I don’t know how many people an apology would have affected, but I do know that a three year old video is three years old, the current situation has pretty much existed since a year ago November, and if people don’t want to move on, that’s okay.

But of the playing population of the game, I suspect most people are tired of hearing about this.

They also said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game but we didn’t have time to include it at launch. You may or may not believe that, but they did say it.

I know. They also said ascended items were put in when they saw how quickly people earned exotics. So which is it? You can’t put something in before launch but run out of time, and decide it put it in as a reaction to something after launch?

Anyway. I digress

what it is and isn’t is irrelevant to how people feel. It’s clear from this issue coming up again and again and again that people feel aggrieved and upset. When dealing with people perceptions are waay more important than facts. Feelings are much more important than definitions and expectation management has more effect than technical information.

The world and customers operate by expectations and their perception of value.

The above statement above while factual(in a facetious way) does nothing to address feelings, expectations and perceptions. So therefore would do nothing to resolve the situation and because of the tone would probably make it worse.

As I also mentioned above. Explain why parts of the manifesto couldn’t be met, then express regret and acknowledge the disappointment the change caused.

It’s customer management 101 stuff.. really..

Who’s to say that the lack of transparency didn’t do more harm than good, given all the possible implications? I can very easily call it an act of cowardice and many would be believe me.

So what should they admit?

“Hello, we are a company, and the model we envisioned in our manifesto would not let the game survive nor make us enough money to be worth all the time and effort spent on it, therefore we made changes to interest a bigger audience”?

No matter what they say or do people will complain.
But the main issue is that people refuse to understand what a manifesto actually is.

Better to have the back the respect of some rather than none.

The manifesto was for all intents and purposes a marketing tool the sincerity of it notwithstanding. ANet needs own up for dashing the expectations set by it seeing as how they are responsible for its contents.

Vayne.8563:

But of the playing population of the game, I suspect most people are tired of hearing about this.

I suspect it’s really just you, krall, and a few others that are tired hearing about this.

After all, the playing population is too busy playing the game and enjoying it to bother with forums. Supposedly.

And honestly, until things change back at least to some degree, Anet will never hear the end of it. It will be their Albatross. And they brought it on themselves.

Shanaeri Rynale.6897:

They also said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game but we didn’t have time to include it at launch. You may or may not believe that, but they did say it.

I know. They also said ascended items were put in when they saw how quickly people earned exotics. So which is it? You can’t put something in before launch but run out of time, and decide it put it in as a reaction to something after launch?

Anyway. I digress

what it is and isn’t is irrelevant to how people feel. It’s clear from this issue coming up again and again and again that people feel aggrieved and upset. When dealing with people perceptions are waay more important than facts. Feelings are much more important than definitions and expectation management has more effect than technical information.

The world and customers operate by expectations and their perception of value.

The above statement above while factual(in a facetious way) does nothing to address feelings, expectations and perceptions. So therefore would do nothing to resolve the situation and because of the tone would probably make it worse.

As I also mentioned above. Explain why parts of the manifesto couldn’t be met, then express regret and acknowledge the disappointment the change caused.

It’s customer management 101 stuff.. really..

How many people? What percentage? Six guys on a forum who are still hanging around a year later? I don’t think most people in game are still carping on about this. I know no one in my guild is. Because the people that cared the most left and the people who came in after, well this was the status quo.

As to what Anet said about ascended gear, what I believe (and can’t prove) is this. Anet always intended for a gear higher than exotic gear to be in the game, however, they didn’t intend for it to be in the game in its current form. That would make both statements more or less true depending on the perspective of the person making the quote.

They may very well have discussed ascended gear before launch and decided they didn’t have time to put it in. But during that discussion they may have also said that it was going to have the same stats as exotics, and it would just be skins. We don’t know for sure, but it seems to me at least, likely that both things are true.

They were going to include ascended gear but ran out of time, however due to what they saw, that gear was different than their first vision of it.

Gene Archer.8560:

Vayne.8563:

But of the playing population of the game, I suspect most people are tired of hearing about this.

I suspect it’s really just you, krall, and a few others that are tired hearing about this.

After all, the playing population is too busy playing the game and enjoying it to bother with forums. Supposedly.

And honestly, until things change back at least to some degree, Anet will never hear the end of it. It will be their Albatross. And they brought it on themselves.

I’m tired of hearing about it because it’s just plain not helpful or constructive in any way. Got a specific suggestion? Post it. Got something specific you don’t like? Post it. Open up a decent discussion topic.

Discussing a glorified three year old commercial is beyond pointless.

Thalador.4218:

@Vayne & lordkrall: how much are you being paid for this sort of stuff? You see, I’m a bit low on money and I’d need the cash to pay my university tuition, so I thought I could earn a bit by defending lies like a blind zealot. You’re doing it great, guys!

P.S.: This refund thingie…. is it still available?

The refund thing is a relatively normal policy, but Anet kept it going for a long long time. I assume if you bought the game recently you could request a refund. I also assume if you bought the game before the initial launch of ascended gear, you’d have long past your time for a refund, but you know, if you’re interested, the only ones who can really answer you are customer support.

As for the payroll comment, most games have some people who enjoy them. That you can only believe that someone who disagrees with you must be on Anet’s payroll doesn’t speak much for you approaching the topic with an open mind.

Someone must like the game. I’m always on overflows on patch days.

Vayne.8563:

They also said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game but we didn’t have time to include it at launch. You may or may not believe that, but they did say it.

That claim is inaccurate.

What was said was:

Chris Whiteside

First of all in retrospect it would have been better to have included Ascended Gear at launch.

For what it is worth:

It does not matter what percentage of the total discussion of GW2 any one aspect of the game represented. If you claim X in order to convince people to purchase your product it doesn’t matter that you discussed Y at greater length. The discussion of Y is irrelevant to the claims made about X.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

They also said that ascended gear was always supposed to be in the game but we didn’t have time to include it at launch. You may or may not believe that, but they did say it.

That claim is inaccurate.

What was said was:

Chris Whiteside

First of all in retrospect it would have been better to have included Ascended Gear at launch.

---

For what it is worth:

It does not matter what percentage of the total discussion of GW2 any one aspect of the game represented. If you claim X in order to convince people to purchase your product it doesn’t matter that you discussed Y at greater length. The discussion of Y is irrelevant to the claims made about X.

I’m forced to disagree with this. The amount of time spent talking about something indicates its importance.

There isn’t anyone on these forums who believes that MMOs don’t change and evolve. Anet had the word iterate in so many posts in a row, it became an inside joke between me and my wife. They iterate. They change things. They made a blog post about it.

So, if they went and changed something they spend months and years talking about every time they appeared in publicly, like taking out dynamic events and replacing them with traditional quests, one could then claim that’s core to the game.

Because there are many many people here claiming the lack of gear progression was core to the game…but the amount that Anet talked about it and brought it up makes it sound more like an aside.

Anet made a half a dozen statements, maybe, about vertical progression and gear grind. They changed it. They made more than a dozen statements about energy potions, which they also changed…but no one is saying they made this huge change and went back on their word about that.

Anyone who plays MMOs SHOULD expect them to change. And anyone who’s saying that this is a core centerpiece of the game would then go and have to prove that’s the case. If it was, I think Anet would have talked about it a lot more.

killcannon.2576:

I’m tired of hearing about it because it’s just plain not helpful or constructive in any way.

Frankly, it’s all people have left to rally around, because…

killcannon.2576:

Got a specific suggestion? Post it. Got something specific you don’t like? Post it. Open up a decent discussion topic.

…This right here. You think this hasn’t been done? You think people haven’t tried this? Quit acting like that’s some new concept that people haven’t attempted.

Back in 2012, there was a gigantic thread about Ascended Gear. There were several in fact. I remember because I followed them. I posted in at least one of them and made my feelings known.

Know what happened to it? It got “looked at” by the devs before getting sent to the trash bin as Ascended Weapons and Armor got rolled out with nothing from that thread having ever been considered.

There has been a kittening years worth of feedback about stuff like this. About concepts like VP. About things like grind. About horizontal progression. All of it.

All that happens is that the devs “look at it” and “consider the feedback”, and then the thread disappears into obscurity with nothing ever changed.

I bet the same will ultimately happen with the current Character Progression CDI. But you know what? I did post in it. Several times now. I’ve made my feelings and opinions known.

Know who hasn’t posted his thoughts in that thread? Know who hasn’t told the devs his opinion on concepts like Vertical Progression, Horizontal Progression, and how the game can be improved?

The local white knight. Because he’s too busy telling players they’re wrong in threads that involve:

Discussing a glorified three year old commercial

that is supposedly

is beyond pointless.

And yet, for all the “pointlessness”, here you guys are, in this thread.