Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

champ.7021:

Wait is the whole point of this thread trying to prove that gw2 doesnt have a gear treadmill but a gear grind. That doesnt make it any better….

It doesn’t make it better to you. It makes it a whole lot better to me.

See, the gear itself, to me, needs to be optional. I don’t need it. Case in point, I run characters with rares and exotics mixed, no ascended and I can do everything I want in the game. This hasn’t been true in any other MMO I’ve ever played. That’s the real difference.

In other MMOs not having BIS gear means not seeing content at all. In Guild Wars 2….not so much.

But when gear has better stats it is then NOT optional for pvp or other competitive activities. Therefore it is now a treadmill. Whether the increase is only a few percent or not it makes no difference.

The problem with new ascended things coming out is that they will no longer be optional. If they in fact come out with the ascended armor than the increase from full ascended, weapons, armor and trinkets will be enough to make it a requirement for dungeons and necessary for wvw. atm with only trinkets its a 5% benefit which is fine because running exotics doesnt matter much. But with full ascended the increase will be much more.

Relentliss.2170:

Vayne.8563:

champ.7021:

Wait is the whole point of this thread trying to prove that gw2 doesnt have a gear treadmill but a gear grind. That doesnt make it any better….

It doesn’t make it better to you. It makes it a whole lot better to me.

See, the gear itself, to me, needs to be optional. I don’t need it. Case in point, I run characters with rares and exotics mixed, no ascended and I can do everything I want in the game. This hasn’t been true in any other MMO I’ve ever played. That’s the real difference.

In other MMOs not having BIS gear means not seeing content at all. In Guild Wars 2….not so much.

But when gear has better stats it is then NOT optional for pvp or other competitive activities. Therefore it is now a treadmill. Whether the increase is only a few percent or not it makes no difference.

Optimal does not equal possible. There are tons of people playing WvW now without “optimal” gear. In fact. WvW was never intended to be balanced according to Anet. Structured PvP, the balanced PvP isn’t affected at all.

It’s not a treadmill if there’s a cap, whether it’s a grind or not.

Calling it a treadmill won’t make it one.

Valanga.5942:

Vayne.8563:

This started in another thread, where someone said to me that Guild Wars 2 has a gear treadmill, specifically stating that they’d never seen a definition of gear treadmill that said gear progression has to be ongoing.

Obviously, to me, the whole concept of a treadmill is moving and moving and moving and getting nowhere. There’s always another tier of gear.

Now Guild Wars 2, at least with legendary weapons, means that if you get one, it’s always going to be on par with the highest stats in the game. That is to say, I have a legendary rifle. So when the ascended gear comes out, my rifle will move up to that level. It’s a cap on gear.

And if there is a cap on gear, can you call what’s going on here a treadmill? I don’t think so.

What we have here is a gear escalator. Yes, there is vertical progression…to a point. But after you get to that point, it stops. You get off. And once you’re there, you don’t have to worry about gearing up.

In fact, legendary weapons allow you to change stats out of combat, so that a legendary weapon is in fact all weapons of that type. You only need one.

So the real question is, if legendary armor gets released…is it going to be the same. Guaranteed best stats and the ability to change to different stat sets?

Because if it is, that’s gonna be amazing.

You forget the tiny fact that in order to get a legendary weapon you have to:

Either luck a precursor out from the Mystic Toilet or loot (and i think everyone and their dogs knows how “easy” it is) or grind a truckload of gold and buy that from a TP Fighter.

And then, you have to grind your butt off if you want to get the legendary before you get too old to hold a mouse.

Now that’s for ONE weapon… Think about it for SIX pieces of armor + other six trinkets…

Like this isn’t already Grind Wars 2…

Everything in every game gets easier to get over time. Right now you have to grind your butt off to get a legendary.

As the game gets more and more content and closer to it’s goal of having enough to do, then those limits loosen up. They did it in Guild Wars 2, they do it in every MMO.

It’s like the titles in Guild Wars 1. It’s much easier to get Legendary Defender of Ascalon today than it was at release.

Time goes on, things get easier. You don’t have to believe me, you’ll see soon enough.

The Issue is this – they promised NO gear grind.
What are we getting – some gear grind. Why? Because they want to keep us in the game longer than we need to – and not necessarily doing what we want to be doing but what they want us to be doing.

The problem with Ascended gear is that it’s being released in bits and pieces BUT more importantly that it’s being TIME GATED and CONTENT GATED.
It doesn’t matter if they add 1 tear/year if it takes me most of that year to get it regardless of how much time i put in/how good I play.
That’s still grind. It’s the " oh – gotta log into GW2 today otherwise I can’t get my daily laurels to get my gear with " or " oh – better do guild missions otherwise say goodbye to ascended trinkets". They are FORCING players into certain activities that rotate on a schedule. Sure it’s not as tough as other games but it is there. It’s a grind.
Guild missions are boring- terribly boring – but you basically have to do them.
Each day I log in to do my dailies – to get them out of the way so I can actually get to enjoying the game.

At least GW2 gives us an option to opt OUT of the gear treadmill. Farm hard – get your legendary gear and never worry about it.
I honestly hope Legendary armor comes out as sets rather than individual pieces. Individual pieces would be just murder to do ( 5 accessories + 6 pieces of armor) but an armor and jewel set that are hard to make would be great.
Get those – be free.

Dikeido.8436:

Algreg.3629:

Vayne.8563:

Algreg.3629:

it is a treadmill, you constantly have to put in major effort into aquiring newly available items (yes, I know, it is a choice, still, the process is in the game). Legendaries do not change that. Before, you could just ignore legendaries as fluffy beauties, now you can decide whether you want to grind for those (and be possibly set in the future on the weapon slot) or the new ascended weapons. The debate is not whether we have a gear treadmill, we clearly have it. Question is: Is this good, bad or nothing to bother with. Personally I came to the conclusion a mmorpg simply needs some sorts artificial goals to go after (at least for me), so I am fine with the new gear tier. It still is a treadmill. Other games do this with rather easy to aquire gear tiers that become obsolete quite quickly, GW2 gives us a few items that are attainable with a lot of effort. It is basically still the same approach – keep players occupied with some gratification here and then.

A treadmill implies something that never ends. If there is a top tier, it’s not a treadmill.

What happens when you go on a treadmill. You walk and walk and walk and get no where and that’s how most games are.

Until we actually know there isn’t a top tier of gear (and I suspect legendary is the top tier), then you can’t call it a treadmill…well you can call it a treadmill but the analogy is no longer appropriate or particularly effective. That’s what I’m saying.

What Guild Wars 2 is doing is not what other games have done. And if you think it is, you need to spend some time in those other games. This is very different.

And because it is different it needs a new name. Calling something different by using an old name can only lead to confusion.

I understand your point of view, but I do not think this is the way the game will take. Since launch, we had additions and additions of higher stat items. Now weapons are there, then possibly/probably armors. Then we will be in the same spot we were with exotics, a single highest tier of all items. You seem to be quite confident they will stop there, me, not so much. And don´t forget the time aspect. It is not like you run some raid a few (or a lot) of times to aquire new gear, those ascended items/legendaries keep you occupied for months with no end yet and no certainty they will actually be the last step in gear tiers. That is a treadmill for me.

Have you play GW1? Do you realize that 7 years later and that game still cap at lv20 and no treadmill. I’m not saying it will never happen, I’m saying the chance of it ever happening are very slim.

Guild Wars 1 didn’t have a gear treadmill. Arguably it had a skill treadmill. They’re different but not so different.

Guild Wars 1 players don’t sit and complain that skills that completely dumbed down the PvE game were suddenly available. I never ran a necro without necrosis. It was too good a skill to leave behind. Ursan rank 8. Hell even stuff like poison tipped signet which wasn’t available until EotN came out.

So yes, you didn’t have to grind for gear…but you did get new skills and then, if you wanted BIS skills, you had to grind to get those skills up. Sunspear title track, Lightbringer…Luxon/Kurzick, Norn, Deldrimor, Asuran, Ebon Vanguard…and those skills were game changers. They were far more powerful in PvE than ascended gear will ever be. There were builds that completely depended on individual skills.

So Guild Wars 1 asked you to grind for BIS skills and Guild Wars 2 asks you to grind for BIS gear.

Guild Wars 1 had a skill treadmill.

Why is one okay and one so terribad?

Vayne.8563:

Obviously, to me, the whole concept of a treadmill is moving and moving and moving and getting nowhere. There’s always another tier of gear.

Well it’s just like your PC. There’s always a better one or a new graphics card. Some people look it something to look forward to and others will call it a neverending story.

Vayne.8563:

Now Guild Wars 2, at least with legendary weapons, means that if you get one, it’s always going to be on par with the highest stats in the game. That is to say, I have a legendary rifle. So when the ascended gear comes out, my rifle will move up to that level. It’s a cap on gear.

And if there is a cap on gear, can you call what’s going on here a treadmill? I don’t think so.

We don’t know for sure if that’s true. They said that they would match it to the ascended tier, but there’s one question they never answered. What happens when they raise the level cap (as they already said will happen)? Will the legendary weapons be raised to the highest tier of the new level or not? You see, they said they would match it to the highest tier, but tiers can exist at different levels. They never said that level cap raises would be applied to legendary weapons. So you are going on an assumption here.

Vayne.8563:

What we have here is a gear escalator. Yes, there is vertical progression…to a point. But after you get to that point, it stops. You get off. And once you’re there, you don’t have to worry about gearing up.

In fact, legendary weapons allow you to change stats out of combat, so that a legendary weapon is in fact all weapons of that type. You only need one.

So the real question is, if legendary armor gets released…is it going to be the same. Guaranteed best stats and the ability to change to different stat sets?

Because if it is, that’s gonna be amazing.

I haven’t heard about legendary armour yet but if the game would get gear that you can get and then never ever have to buy another set of gear as it automatically upgrades with level caps being raised, well, I’d say more and more people will find this game pointless….not everyone will find that amazing and I can’t imagine it being good for continued activity in an MMO.

This is actually quite a weak point in the game for the long term as I see it. Sure, some people will love it but I think it will cause the game to lose even more players over time.

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

Obviously, to me, the whole concept of a treadmill is moving and moving and moving and getting nowhere. There’s always another tier of gear.

Well it’s just like your PC. There’s always a better one or a new graphics card. Some people look it something to look forward to and others will call it a neverending story.

Vayne.8563:

Now Guild Wars 2, at least with legendary weapons, means that if you get one, it’s always going to be on par with the highest stats in the game. That is to say, I have a legendary rifle. So when the ascended gear comes out, my rifle will move up to that level. It’s a cap on gear.

And if there is a cap on gear, can you call what’s going on here a treadmill? I don’t think so.

We don’t know for sure if that’s true. They said that they would match it to the ascended tier, but there’s one question they never answered. What happens when they raise the level cap (as they already said will happen)? Will the legendary weapons be raised to the highest tier of the new level or not? You see, they said they would match it to the highest tier, but tiers can exist at different levels. They never said that level cap raises would be applied to legendary weapons. So you are going on an assumption here.

Vayne.8563:

What we have here is a gear escalator. Yes, there is vertical progression…to a point. But after you get to that point, it stops. You get off. And once you’re there, you don’t have to worry about gearing up.

In fact, legendary weapons allow you to change stats out of combat, so that a legendary weapon is in fact all weapons of that type. You only need one.

So the real question is, if legendary armor gets released…is it going to be the same. Guaranteed best stats and the ability to change to different stat sets?

Because if it is, that’s gonna be amazing.

I haven’t heard about legendary armour yet but if the game would get gear that you can get and then never ever have to buy another set of gear as it automatically upgrades with level caps being raised, well, I’d say more and more people will find this game pointless….not everyone will find that amazing and I can’t imagine it being good for continued activity in an MMO.

This is actually quite a weak point in the game for the long term as I see it. Sure, some people will love it but I think it will cause the game to lose even more players over time.

They said that legendary weapons were meant to be best in slot always. That was directly said. Maybe someone will find a quote, but they were always meant to be BIS. They’re raising the stats now because ascended gear is coming out. I’d be very surprised if they said to people okay, your legendary is now useless.

I just don’t see that happening at all.

And I fully expect legendary armor at some point.

The main question that needs to be asked is whether or not this new gear is needed. Legendary is already a gear grind that exists in the game. Making ascended weapons doesnt add anything to it. I would say sure go ahead with ascended weapons if fractals were worth running past lvl 48…

“In other MMOs not having BIS gear means not seeing content at all.”

This is not really true. You don’t need BiS to see the content, it only makes it easier. In WoW for example, there were achievements for doing raids in low itemlevel gear (like blue or green in GW2), because it could be done. Even when the next tier comes out, there are usually other easy methods coming with that raid-tier to obtain pre-raid gear again. You can e.g. aquire gear with running simple 5man dungeons for tokens, a.k.a grinding. To be honest, I don’t see that much difference in this regard between other games and GW2 now, only that in GW2 the whole process is slower, and gear doesn’t come tier by tier, but piece by piece. And what is the point of ascended gear’s higher stats? To make the already easy PvE more easy? Am I supposed to be glad about that?

marnick.4305:

Merely a statement that no new tier will be added until 70% of the active playerbase has full ascended, coupled with a formal promise that level cap will never be raised is all we want.

Arenanet will not say this because part of it is not in their plan. They already confirmed that they plan to increase the level cap. They also confirmed that infusions have tiers and higher quality ones will have better stats. Since infusions have stats beyond agony resistance, this alone will create power creep.

Will there be a full tier after Ascended? Arenanet will not say. I think they are not saying because they are planning to do it.

Again, the whole point of introducing these is for people that need gear with better stats to work towards. If Arenanet is now convinced that is the only way to retain those players, they will have no choice but to introduce new gear tiers. It is retention through the carrot rather than through fun. Much like the model subscription-based MMOs use.

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know the true numbers, but I strongly suspect this game needs a whole lot of players to keep the wheels turning.

It needs a lot of people spending money in the Cash Shop. The biggest aspect of that shop is buying gems for real money then converting to in-game gold.

Does not need a large percentage of the playerbase spending real money in the shop? This has been proven with various models (you can google to get the study findings). These whales, as they are referred to in casinos, are driving the real world GW2 economy post-box sales.

The question is what motivates these individuals to spend and more importantly, to buy gold from Arenanet.

If it using real money to buy mats for the “hard to get” gear or even being the “hard to get” gear directly, then it explains the introduction of Ascended and the huge requirements for both Ascended/Legendary weapons.

I cannot blame Arenanet for making changes that support their financial model. I just wonder if this focus makes the game more fun.

dalendria.3762:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know the true numbers, but I strongly suspect this game needs a whole lot of players to keep the wheels turning.

It needs a lot of people spending money in the Cash Shop. The biggest aspect of that shop is buying gems for real money then converting to in-game gold.

Does not need a large percentage of the playerbase spending real money in the shop? This has been proven with various models (you can google to get the study findings). These whales, as they are referred to in casinos, are driving the real world GW2 economy post-box sales.

The question is what motivates these individuals to spend and more importantly, to buy gold from Arenanet.

If it using real money to buy mats for the “hard to get” gear or even being the “hard to get” gear directly, then it explains the introduction of Ascended and the huge requirements for both Ascended/Legendary weapons.

I cannot blame Arenanet for making changes that support their financial model. I just wonder if this focus makes the game more fun.

If you let this sort of stuff rule you, it’ll be less fun. If you just do stuff casually as it happens and don’t rush out and get everything right away…then it’s probably more fun.

Fun has to be at least partially a player’s responsibility.

Vayne.8563:

They said that legendary weapons were meant to be best in slot always. That was directly said. Maybe someone will find a quote, but they were always meant to be BIS. They’re raising the stats now because ascended gear is coming out. I’d be very surprised if they said to people okay, your legendary is now useless.

I just don’t see that happening at all.

And I fully expect legendary armor at some point.

Well, I remember reading that too, but I also remember noticing how they didn’t take the level cap raise into it. This was around the time that ascended gear was announced and they said that legendary weapons would be matched to any tier, but again not specifying anything about what would happen in the case of a level cap raise.

I am pretty sure that the current legendary weapons will forever be BiS for level 80, but I am not so sure it will be BiS for higher levels.

Considering how much of the crappy RNG stuff they are copying from Aion, I wouldn’t be surprised if a level cap raise will include a way to upgrade your current one to level 90 or whatever, but I’d be really surprised if they’d just auto-update it to the new level cap.

We’ll see of course but I think you read a little more in those comments than was actually written there. I would be surprised if you found a genuine link to any comments that include the level cap raise in that BiS commentary.

dalendria.3762:

marnick.4305:

Merely a statement that no new tier will be added until 70% of the active playerbase has full ascended, coupled with a formal promise that level cap will never be raised is all we want.

Arenanet will not say this because part of it is not in their plan. They already confirmed that they plan to increase the level cap. They also confirmed that infusions have tiers and higher quality ones will have better stats. Since infusions have stats beyond agony resistance, this alone will create power creep.

Will there be a full tier after Ascended? Arenanet will not say. I think they are not saying because they are planning to do it.

Again, the whole point of introducing these is for people that need gear with better stats to work towards. If Arenanet is now convinced that is the only way to retain those players, they will have no choice but to introduce new gear tiers. It is retention through the carrot rather than through fun. Much like the model subscription-based MMOs use.

My thoughts precisely.

Regardless of what anyone says – be it player, developer, or whoever – MMOs are games that are always subject to change, especially when it comes to chaCHING

Gehenna.3625:

Vayne.8563:

They said that legendary weapons were meant to be best in slot always. That was directly said. Maybe someone will find a quote, but they were always meant to be BIS. They’re raising the stats now because ascended gear is coming out. I’d be very surprised if they said to people okay, your legendary is now useless.

I just don’t see that happening at all.

And I fully expect legendary armor at some point.

Well, I remember reading that too, but I also remember noticing how they didn’t take the level cap raise into it. This was around the time that ascended gear was announced and they said that legendary weapons would be matched to any tier, but again not specifying anything about what would happen in the case of a level cap raise.

I am pretty sure that the current legendary weapons will forever be BiS for level 80, but I am not so sure it will be BiS for higher levels.

Considering how much of the crappy RNG stuff they are copying from Aion, I wouldn’t be surprised if a level cap raise will include a way to upgrade your current one to level 90 or whatever, but I’d be really surprised if they’d just auto-update it to the new level cap.

We’ll see of course but I think you read a little more in those comments than was actually written there. I would be surprised if you found a genuine link to any comments that include the level cap raise in that BiS commentary.

You could be right..the future will tell I guess.

I may be wrong, but this is how I interpreted it:

ANet has said (since before launch so don’t get all ruffled) that they may someday raise the level cap. Even if there is no new tier, Legendaries will probably get bumped up to Level 90 Ascended or whatever that might be.

In any case, the way this stuff is being implemented prevents folks from being suddenly undergeared, and the stat differences are not massive (and with fractals, laurels, wvw etc, there has been plenty of time for folks to gather up at least a couple ascended accessories.

Vayne.8563:

dalendria.3762:

Vayne.8563:

I don’t know the true numbers, but I strongly suspect this game needs a whole lot of players to keep the wheels turning.

It needs a lot of people spending money in the Cash Shop. The biggest aspect of that shop is buying gems for real money then converting to in-game gold.

Does not need a large percentage of the playerbase spending real money in the shop? This has been proven with various models (you can google to get the study findings). These whales, as they are referred to in casinos, are driving the real world GW2 economy post-box sales.

The question is what motivates these individuals to spend and more importantly, to buy gold from Arenanet.

If it using real money to buy mats for the “hard to get” gear or even being the “hard to get” gear directly, then it explains the introduction of Ascended and the huge requirements for both Ascended/Legendary weapons.

I cannot blame Arenanet for making changes that support their financial model. I just wonder if this focus makes the game more fun.

If you let this sort of stuff rule you, it’ll be less fun. If you just do stuff casually as it happens and don’t rush out and get everything right away…then it’s probably more fun.

Fun has to be at least partially a player’s responsibility.

Anet did state somewhere right in the beginning that the question they ask themselves when they develop content is always – Is it fun.

To me is honestly seems that yes it was more fun.
I love making my own goals and finding my own fun and the game supported this to a large extent in the beginning.

Fast forward to today and as I player I am feeling like I have to work against the game now to have fun.
I feel like I am at cross purposes to the game
I have to not gear myself in ascended, I have to not even look at the achievement checklist for dailies, monthlies, living story blah blah. I have to not get on the choo choo farm train and be poor instead
Instead of a virtual world to enjoy and embrace, I am given a checklist.

Being reasonable is all good and fine but the fact is this was the one game, the one MMO for people who do not like MMO’s
It seems to be trying it’s level best to become just another generic MMO- and you know the communities in those MMo’s?
yes – they are toxic and bored and full of trolls- I was shocked at the chat on my once wonderful server today- I thought I was playing DOTA

In my opinion GW2 was something very special- a lot of that still remains but it seems like Anet decided to go for the press and the promises instead of the game they are so passionate about.

I’ll be the first to call it: The legendary armour either deals with molten-lava with embers of fire rising from it. And or earthy looking, glowing white/yellow/purple hue with a seemingly crystal formation that’s bulky that appears to be ‘ancient’.

I’m placing bets! Who wants in?

Vayne.8563:

A treadmill implies something that never ends. If there is a top tier, it’s not a treadmill.

What happens when you go on a treadmill. You walk and walk and walk and get no where and that’s how most games are.

Until we actually know there isn’t a top tier of gear (and I suspect legendary is the top tier), then you can’t call it a treadmill…well you can call it a treadmill but the analogy is no longer appropriate or particularly effective. That’s what I’m saying.

What Guild Wars 2 is doing is not what other games have done. And if you think it is, you need to spend some time in those other games. This is very different.

And because it is different it needs a new name. Calling something different by using an old name can only lead to confusion.

Does it really matte what we call it? I think that it’s a new tier of gear added solely to give carrot chasers a reason to keep logging in on a daily basis is the point. Actually it’s the sub-point, the larger point being that this game was supposed to get away from genre norms.

Eurogamer: How are you handling endgame loot – will we be farming bosses?

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.

Remember that? I sure do.

darkace.8925:

Vayne.8563:

A treadmill implies something that never ends. If there is a top tier, it’s not a treadmill.

What happens when you go on a treadmill. You walk and walk and walk and get no where and that’s how most games are.

Until we actually know there isn’t a top tier of gear (and I suspect legendary is the top tier), then you can’t call it a treadmill…well you can call it a treadmill but the analogy is no longer appropriate or particularly effective. That’s what I’m saying.

What Guild Wars 2 is doing is not what other games have done. And if you think it is, you need to spend some time in those other games. This is very different.

And because it is different it needs a new name. Calling something different by using an old name can only lead to confusion.

Does it really matte what we call it? I think that it’s a new tier of gear added solely to give carrot chasers a reason to keep logging in on a daily basis is the point. Actually it’s the sub-point, the larger point being that this game was supposed to get away from genre norms.

Eurogamer: How are you handling endgame loot – will we be farming bosses?

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base. The rare stuff becomes the really awesome looking armours. It’s all about collecting the unique looking stuff and collecting all the other rare collectable items in the game: armour pieces, potentially different potions – a lot of that is still up in the air and we’ll finalise a lot of those reward systems as we get closer to release. And those come off of things like the bosses at the end of dungeons – the raids.

Remember that? I sure do.

It matters what we call it to me. It might not matter what we call it to you.

Maybe it’s my work that made word usage important to me, but if we’re communicating with each other and we’re using the same word to mean different things…well the first step in communicating with anyone is to define terms.

I don’t think there’s enough here to call this a treadmill. The use of the word treadmill could conceivably throw off the argument. What people are really saying is that it’s a grind.

Saying I don’t want a treadmill is a very different thing to saying I don’t want a grind.

Let’s say that Anet devs understand a gear treadmill in the same way I do and let’s also pretend just for the sake of argument that they aren’t planning on more tiers of gear.

Then they look at a thread that says I don’t want a gear treadmill and never look further, knowing they don’t plan on having one. Meanwhile the thread really means I don’t like grinding for this gear.

If you want to have a conversation about something, particularly if you want that thing to change, you have to define what you’re talking about first.

The distinction around ‘treadmill’ is that you do the work in order to get where you already were. The rundown with VP is that everyone starts at power level X, a new piece(s) of gear drops with higher power and everyone hops on the treadmill. When you get off everyone is at power level Y and meanwhile the environment has taken on power level Y. Before or after the treadmill ride there is no relative difference between player and player or player and environment. In reality you have gone nowhere, there was simply a massive amount of grinding for new numbers that everyone now has. Nothing has changed.

Now, an escalator gives a ride for free. I’d be fine with that but it’s not what VP is about. It’s about the grind to keep players grinding.

The legendaries are only an escalator once you have them and the grind would be measured in years even for the heartiest grinders due to time-gating. Yeah, and the only thing legendary about legendaries will be that they represent grind insurance for each slot. VP is a blight on any game in which you find it—and, GW2 is no exception.

I don’t really care what system they use. I just want to get on with my game and not have to grind out gear for better stats. That is so shallow.

Chuo.4238:

I don’t really care what system they use. I just want to get on with my game and not have to grind out gear for better stats. That is so shallow.

But you dont have to! You can play however you want to play! Dont worry about upgrading from greens to rares or rares to exotics!
(sarcasm)

I doubt legendary weapons won’t be bumped up to whatever level cap increase comes.
The level cap could be increased but honestly I doubt it will happen soon – or ever.

This sort of thing would be probably consistent with an expansion which won’t be coming soon. Also – imagine the balance changes needing to be made.

level 80 means 70 trait points. The game is balanced for 70 trait points. ALL skills, ALL classes – everything.
Imagine increasing that. The entire game mechanic of PVP/PVE/WVW would have to be reworked. Months of exploits/ OP specs / you name it to follow.
Imagine the backlash from the community when certain classes leave others in the dust.

If they do increase levels I believe they will give it a different spin – get from 80 to 90 but no more trait points added – instead your base stats are increased by a certain percent.

Any thoughts guys?

Legendary armor needs to be t4 cultural.

marnick.4305:

Vayne.8563:

JK Arrow.7102:

It’s an argument of semantics at this point. The fact is a gear tier that is higher than the previously max gear tier is being released and we have no confirmation that they will not release another tier. Whatever you want to call this situation, it doesn’t change the situation itself. It is acting and provides the same concerns and issues that a gear treadmill does.

@Vayne – I’ve been meaning to ask you this since our discussion in the other tread. Do you personally want additional tiers added? Do you think the game needs it?

I’d have been more than happy if they never had anything but cosmetic gear. That’s personally. That’s completely different than if I think the game needs it.

My son got his legendary bow. Then he stopped playing the game. He’s playing a different MMO now.

My answer to that is … good riddance. I don’t mean any offence but such people make the game worse for people like me who play for fun. People like your son simply can’t be pleased on the long term, without killing fun for people like me. That makes the “good riddance” a practical thing. People who don’t like RTS games shouldn’t be playing StarCraft either.

There are goal oriented people who need goals. Those goals don’t have to be gear, but gear is certainly an easy one to provide them with.

In fact, it’s so easy that it’s become the lazy cop out in the industry. I personally believe the route with achievement break points and account stats is the superior one.

Thats so biased.

Good riddance to him for having fun his way! lol.

Thats like me saying good riddance to someone like you for leaving because you ruin the game for me with your casual play -.-.

Stuck up much?

Just because you have goals in a game, like gear, stats, or whatever doesn’t mean you wont stick around long term if new goals are made. Because people that like to power up characters do play for fun, they however like to have a goal as well. Is that wrong or bad? No.

Namu.5712:

Just because you have goals in a game, like gear, stats, or whatever doesn’t mean you wont stick around long term if new goals are made. Because people that like to power up characters do play for fun, they however like to have a goal as well. Is that wrong or bad? No.

The rat in the Skinner Box pushes the button for the fun of it?

darkace.8925:

Namu.5712:

Just because you have goals in a game, like gear, stats, or whatever doesn’t mean you wont stick around long term if new goals are made. Because people that like to power up characters do play for fun, they however like to have a goal as well. Is that wrong or bad? No.

The rat in the Skinner Box pushes the button for the fun of it?

The dog in the living room chases his tail for the fun of it?

Vayne.8563:

This started in another thread, where someone said to me that Guild Wars 2 has a gear treadmill, specifically stating that they’d never seen a definition of gear treadmill that said gear progression has to be ongoing.

Obviously, to me, the whole concept of a treadmill is moving and moving and moving and getting nowhere. There’s always another tier of gear.

Now Guild Wars 2, at least with legendary weapons, means that if you get one, it’s always going to be on par with the highest stats in the game. That is to say, I have a legendary rifle. So when the ascended gear comes out, my rifle will move up to that level. It’s a cap on gear.

And if there is a cap on gear, can you call what’s going on here a treadmill? I don’t think so.

What we have here is a gear escalator. Yes, there is vertical progression…to a point. But after you get to that point, it stops. You get off. And once you’re there, you don’t have to worry about gearing up.

In fact, legendary weapons allow you to change stats out of combat, so that a legendary weapon is in fact all weapons of that type. You only need one.

So the real question is, if legendary armor gets released…is it going to be the same. Guaranteed best stats and the ability to change to different stat sets?

Because if it is, that’s gonna be amazing.

First, this is all well and good if you have a legendary. Your weapon gets an automatic boost. If you don’t have a legendary, then your exotic or whatever you have won’t get a boost, therefor you need to farm for that ascended so you have BiS stats..relatively speaking. So your logic only applies if you have a legendary. Not many people do.

Second, if they release legendary armor..this is a treadmill. Game launched with exotic as max set. Now we are getting ascended. If legendary armor comes out, its another tier.

Whether or not the stats scale up automatically, still..its another set. Its a treadmill.

This talk of “treadmills” is getting to the point where it’s like trying to define “grind”…or even “fun”.

Smith.1826:

This talk of “treadmills” is getting to the point where it’s like trying to define “grind”…or even “fun”.

Grind and fun have already been defined by arenanet.
Grind is doing one thing over and over again.

GW2 has lots.

Smith.1826:

This talk of “treadmills” is getting to the point where it’s like trying to define “grind”…or even “fun”.

Agreed. But really that’s what it comes down to on individual bases, how ascended gear is effecting us. As well as how it effects on a more “global” scale, from fun to balance to fairness to play styles…

Personally, I’m against time gating, not so much treadmill/additional ascended. Though I would hope it stops at ascended (would have liked it to have stopped at exotics….).

cesmode.4257:

Smith.1826:

This talk of “treadmills” is getting to the point where it’s like trying to define “grind”…or even “fun”.

Grind and fun have already been defined by arenanet.
Grind is doing one thing over and over again.

GW2 has lots.

Lies! They told us, explicitly, that they wouldn’t resort to gear grinding.

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

darkace.8925:

cesmode.4257:

Smith.1826:

This talk of “treadmills” is getting to the point where it’s like trying to define “grind”…or even “fun”.

Grind and fun have already been defined by arenanet.
Grind is doing one thing over and over again.

GW2 has lots.

Lies! They told us, explicitly, that they wouldn’t resort to gear grinding.

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

Its ironic how fast their game turned to all about grnding to get best gear and grindy to point where it could challenge games like L2.

It could be that they are focusing (adapting) to east (Chinese) market and west market gets a shaft.

Korean grinders never sat well with west market though.

darkace.8925:

cesmode.4257:

Smith.1826:

This talk of “treadmills” is getting to the point where it’s like trying to define “grind”…or even “fun”.

Grind and fun have already been defined by arenanet.
Grind is doing one thing over and over again.

GW2 has lots.

Lies! They told us, explicitly, that they wouldn’t resort to gear grinding.

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

I hope they see this quote on the forums more than more. I’ve given up thinking they’ll change their new profit over quality or promises attitude but at least they should know the player base hasn’t forgotten.

Pretty much, I don’t want to mince words or argue technicalities.

Grinding time-gated gear is, for me:

1) Not fun, it’s preparing to have fun
2) Discouraging for alts
3) Not something that this game actually needs
4) Not something I’m going to get around by buying with ingame or real funds.
5) Not something I can thing of one, single, positive thing about.
6) Most definitely the reason why I’m abandoning Guild Wars 2.

I wish there were a much larger portion of the playerbase like me – then ArenaNet might listen instead of throwing away such great innovative potential in a game. If such a large portion does exist, then it’s clear that ArenaNet are chasing profits to the exclusion of actually having happy customers.

I don’t know which it is, and anymore, I don’t care. This game is getting worse, not better, and has turned out to be a very long-anticipated, colossal disappointment. There really isn’t anything awesome about it that I can see. Pretty mediocre on average, with some really good features, and some truly terrible ones.

Morrigan.2809:

Being reasonable is all good and fine but the fact is this was the one game, the one MMO for people who do not like MMO’s
It seems to be trying it’s level best to become just another generic MMO- and you know the communities in those MMo’s?
yes – they are toxic and bored and full of trolls- I was shocked at the chat on my once wonderful server today- I thought I was playing DOTA

In my opinion GW2 was something very special- a lot of that still remains but it seems like Anet decided to go for the press and the promises instead of the game they are so passionate about.

You just summarized my feelings on this.

1. I became angry around late November when I read a husband’s story about the mistreatment of his wife in FOTM. Yes, it was hopefully isolated but it reminded me of the toxic environment of a MMO I hate.

2. Fast forward. I have noticed an increase in the toxicity on my server. I quit a MMO because I was tired of being subjected to racist and sexist comments. I play games to reduce stress not to be subjected to abuse.

GW2 seemed to attract cooperative, fun, friendly people. After a while, I realized it was because of the nature of the game design. This did make it special, unique and enjoyable.

You can blame the people but sometimes the game itself brings out the worse in us. Sometimes the game itself encourages us to become elitist and selfish. Sometimes the game itself encourages people to use it to boost self esteem that for whatever reason is lacking in the real world. Sometimes that game becomes a job, a chore, something that you do even though you are not having fun.

We can argue all day about what Arenanet intended. However, by their own admission, they launched GW2 with the intent of making a fun and cooperative game.

Is that still the motivation, the driver?

They will probably raise level cap before adding new tier, but that will have a side effect of obsoleting ALL your gear (even legendaries) so you can get on gear treadmill all over again!

Remember that infusions are at “fine” quality so lots of room for new tiers there. It will look somewhat:

ascended weapons
masterwork infusions
ascended armor
rare infusions
ascended sigils
exotic infusions
ascended runes
ascended infusions

new level cap rendering all of the above obsolete at new level cap.

Welcome to new Gear Wars 2. Its all about gearflation! And we have grind too!

MikaHR.1978:

darkace.8925:

cesmode.4257:

Smith.1826:

This talk of “treadmills” is getting to the point where it’s like trying to define “grind”…or even “fun”.

Grind and fun have already been defined by arenanet.
Grind is doing one thing over and over again.

GW2 has lots.

Lies! They told us, explicitly, that they wouldn’t resort to gear grinding.

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

Its ironic how fast their game turned to all about grnding to get best gear and grindy to point where it could challenge games like L2.

It could be that they are focusing (adapting) to east (Chinese) market and west market gets a shaft.

Korean grinders never sat well with west market though.

Bingo!!!!

Was thinking about this a few days ago. They seem to have a strong marketing staff so my assumption is that they are making changes for a specific target market. Per studies, RNG is popular in eastern markets. I guess grinding may be as well.

Just not an attractive feature in North America. We like earning things but not by doing the same stuff over and over. Also, getting something by being lucky is not earning it.

dalendria.3762:

MikaHR.1978:

darkace.8925:

cesmode.4257:

Smith.1826:

This talk of “treadmills” is getting to the point where it’s like trying to define “grind”…or even “fun”.

Grind and fun have already been defined by arenanet.
Grind is doing one thing over and over again.

GW2 has lots.

Lies! They told us, explicitly, that they wouldn’t resort to gear grinding.

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

Its ironic how fast their game turned to all about grnding to get best gear and grindy to point where it could challenge games like L2.

It could be that they are focusing (adapting) to east (Chinese) market and west market gets a shaft.

Korean grinders never sat well with west market though.

Bingo!!!!

Was thinking about this a few days ago. They seem to have a strong marketing staff so my assumption is that they are making changes for a specific target market. Per studies, RNG is popular in eastern markets. I guess grinding may be as well.

Just not an attractive feature in North America. We like earning things but not by doing the same stuff over and over. Also, getting something by being lucky is not earning it.

Even less atractive here in Europe.

Notice how precursor “scavenger hunt” or w/e slided into nothingness lately?

Its not in their interest to do stuff like that any more.

RNG is pretty much how east market rolls. Its possible that GW2 will have different payment model in China, even WoW is pay by hour there so they adapt all this time-gate crap because of China payment model where you might buy time instead of box.

Terms like “treadmill” or “escalator” aside, what does it take to make one legendary? Done with that? OK, now to get this “final” gear in every slot, make between 7 and 12 more just to “finish” one character. Those numbers be represent an elementalist or engineer with just staff/rifle and trident/harpoon gun as weapons. The 12 assumes the same class/weapons plus trinkets. Obviously, the number would go up from there.

Will there even be legendary trinkets, though? Having them would make no sense given that a legendary started off as a prestige skin, and trinkets don’t show.

Whether it’s a treadmill or an escalator, the system stinks.

darkace.8925:

cesmode.4257:

Smith.1826:

This talk of “treadmills” is getting to the point where it’s like trying to define “grind”…or even “fun”.

Grind and fun have already been defined by arenanet.
Grind is doing one thing over and over again.

GW2 has lots.

Lies! They told us, explicitly, that they wouldn’t resort to gear grinding.

“Here’s what we believe: If someone wants to play for a thousand hours to get an item that is so rare that other players can’t realistically acquire it, that rare item should be differentiated by its visual appearance and rarity alone, not by being more powerful than everything else in the game. Otherwise, your MMO becomes all about grinding to get the best gear. We don’t make grindy games — we leave the grind to other MMOs.”

-Mike Obrien, President of Arenanet

This quote by Mike O’Brien should be plastered all over these forums. This…THIS is why so many feel betrayed, let down, and like all those exciting years waiting for GW 2 have been such a wasteful, crushing disappointment. Somebody stole our game, and drive a train over our community.

I say keep quoting him.

Vayne.8563:

Everything in every game gets easier to get over time. Right now you have to grind your butt off to get a legendary.

As the game gets more and more content and closer to it’s goal of having enough to do, then those limits loosen up. They did it in Guild Wars 2, they do it in every MMO.

It’s like the titles in Guild Wars 1. It’s much easier to get Legendary Defender of Ascalon today than it was at release.

Time goes on, things get easier. You don’t have to believe me, you’ll see soon enough.

I already have my legendary, but anyway, i will probably not, because i already half left the game, like a lot of people seems to be doing lately (even if you think they are not).
And that’s the point, GW2 lack the content to keep the people (most? some? a lot? a couple?) engaged for that amount of time, and the last updates just made things worse, because if i have to grind for gear, i think there are games that makes it better (like Rift), and if i have to follow the zerg, well, i find more fun and challenging to go back raiding, at least you have to use the brain and not only spam 1.

Klawlyt.6507:

I didn’t buy other games. I bought Guild Wars 2. (Ok, I have bought other games, but stopped playing them when they became more like jobs.) I bought GW2 because “You shouldn’t have to grind to get to the fun reward.” New gear tiers screw up WvW, especially when acquisition of said gear is so heavily slanted toward PvE. May I remind everyone that EQ Next isn’t even going to have levels, I think GW2 could survive just fine with its initially stated grind free gear system.

Of course it could, especially with the fortnightly content release schedule. With that schedule they don’t need all this time gating and grind to keep people playing.

morrolan.9608:

Klawlyt.6507:

I didn’t buy other games. I bought Guild Wars 2. (Ok, I have bought other games, but stopped playing them when they became more like jobs.) I bought GW2 because “You shouldn’t have to grind to get to the fun reward.” New gear tiers screw up WvW, especially when acquisition of said gear is so heavily slanted toward PvE. May I remind everyone that EQ Next isn’t even going to have levels, I think GW2 could survive just fine with its initially stated grind free gear system.

Of course it could, especially with the fortnightly content release schedule. With that schedule they don’t need all this time gating and grind to keep people playing.

Maybe in the west. In the east – they seem not to think so.

Too bad that those 2 dont mesh well.

cesmode.4257:

Smith.1826:

This talk of “treadmills” is getting to the point where it’s like trying to define “grind”…or even “fun”.

Grind and fun have already been defined by arenanet.
Grind is doing one thing over and over again.

GW2 has lots.

Grind isn’t doing things over and over again. I wake up every single morning every day of my life…am I grinding waking up? If that’s your understanding of grind no wonder you find the game grindy.

Because in every MMO, every game in fact, everything you do is repetitive?

You’re a Guild Wars 1 fan. How many creatures did you kill? How many times did you run DOA. How many GvG matches did you play? Whatever you did in GW 1 for the time you played, you did it a lot. I did a ton of vanquishing. I didn’t have to. I did it because I enjoyed it.

Grind originally meant to kill mobs to level. That’s the original definition and later it started to be anything they people had to repeat that they didn’t like. So crafting is a grind if you don’t like it, killing is a grind if you don’t like it. The Luxon title track would have been a grind in Guild Wars 1 but it was called a farm. FFF or fast faction farm. And people repeated it over and over again to grind it out. Guild Wars 1 had no shortage of grinds.

The grind for a legendary in GW 2 is huge (unless you choose not to grind in which case it takes a long time). But people call dailies a grind and I don’t think that qualifies. Likewise time-gating something isn’t a grind. It’s time-gating. In a grind you could keep doing it until you got it. If anything time-gating is anti grind.

Maybe you want to call everything repetitive a grind, but that’s not what grind is.

The problem lies with the RNG Aspect and Immense Grind that is required to the reach the highest tier of gear. Getting a Precursor is completely luck based. Plus when you’re going for a Legendary why would you ever waste your precious resources on an Ascended item or Unique Exotic item? Also, I am okay with people being able to sell everything they acquire in-game but now that Legendaries are getting a bump and since you can buy Gold with Real Money Guild Wars 2 has honestly become a Pay to Win Game.

Ultimately I feel that The Guild Wars franchise has gone to complete trash. I can admit that I used to be one of Anet’s biggest fans and supporters. It’s a shame because Guild Wars 2 really is a beautiful game and Guild Wars 1 is easily one of the best games I’ve ever played.

Theplayboy.6417:

The problem lies with the RNG Aspect and Immense Grind that is required to the reach the highest tier of gear. Getting a Precursor is completely luck based. Plus when you’re going for a Legendary why would you ever waste your precious resources on an Ascended item or Unique Exotic item? Also, I am okay with people being able to sell everything they acquire in-game but now that Legendaries are getting a bump and since you can buy Gold with Real Money Guild Wars 2 has honestly become a Pay to Win Game.

Ultimately I feel that The Guild Wars franchise has gone to complete trash. I can admit that I used to be one of Anet’s biggest fans and supporters. It’s a shame because Guild Wars 2 really is a beautiful game and Guild Wars 1 is easily one of the best games I’ve ever played.

I agree with your comments about precusors. I hate the way Anet has done them. Even having gotten one, I hate the way Anet had done them. But legendary weapons don’t make this game.

If Anet makes it so that you need ascended gear to play most of the content, then this game will be everything most of the people in this thread seem to be saying.

If Anet doesn’t, then it truly is optional and if it takes time, it can take time. I won’t be grinding for it.

Diamandis.7483:

@Vayne
My son got his legendary bow. Then he stopped playing the game. He’s playing a different MMO now.

Shame you did not follow in his footsteps…

I shudder to think that the guy who derails most forums on this site
likes put focus more on just how he perceives anybody else with another valid opinion then his own more so then the actual topic……..

seems anytime a player voices their concern about the game Vayne will show up and spend more time trying to understand and prove how anybody else with another point of view other then his surely must be wrong and they need to be told why by use of fictitious numbers or taking things out of context

Not sure if he is trolling half the time or some paid bot. ALL Hail A-nets Brownish White Knight!

Actually I am concerned about the game. But I also know that using the wrong words to express your concern will invalidate your legitimate complaints.

If Anet has no intention of making a treadmill and you complain about there being one, then Anet can ignore the thread completely because they know they’re not planning on making a treadmill.

If your problem is grind, and you don’t like it, calling it a treadmill won’t change it. Complain about the grind

Due to my background, word choice is pretty important to me, and communicating your complaints effectively is the only way change can happen.

So if you have a complaint about the game, and you phrase it in an ambiguous way, it will never be heard and you’re just wasting your time. That’s why I talk about semantics so much.

That’s why I tell people not to bring up three year old videos and talk about what is going on now.

Because ultimately that’s the only way anything will be changed.