Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

If Anet has no intention of making a treadmill and you complain about there being one, then Anet can ignore the thread completely because they know they’re not planning on making a treadmill.

I feel like I’m on a treadmill now even before asc weapons are introduced, thats the only valid thing to me. If you or anet want to ignore that feedback because you/they think I’m talking out of my kitten fine but they’ll have lost a customer.

Vayne.8563:

Actually I am concerned about the game. But I also know that using the wrong words to express your concern will invalidate your legitimate complaints.

If Anet has no intention of making a treadmill and you complain about there being one, then Anet can ignore the thread completely because they know they’re not planning on making a treadmill.

If your problem is grind, and you don’t like it, calling it a treadmill won’t change it. Complain about the grind

Due to my background, word choice is pretty important to me, and communicating your complaints effectively is the only way change can happen.

So if you have a complaint about the game, and you phrase it in an ambiguous way, it will never be heard and you’re just wasting your time. That’s why I talk about semantics so much.

That’s why I tell people not to bring up three year old videos and talk about what is going on now.

Because ultimately that’s the only way anything will be changed.

While we’re on the topic of semantics, there’s a reason people bring up three year old videos. It wasn’t a “statement of intent”. It wasn’t their “guiding principles”. It wasn’t their “business plan”. It was a manifesto. Who writes manifestos? People starting revolutions! People who want to change the way others think! ArenaNet boldly proclaimed that they were going to cast off the shackles of that which came before, and tread forth into new MMO territory.

Guild Wars 2, despite its fantastic sales, still had a rough opening couple of months. How long did it take to get the TP up and running? What was there for large guilds to do together? And yes, there were scads of people who just bought the game because the heard it was the next big MMO, and who hadn’t done their homework to find out what kind of game it was being marketed as. But these days, a large segment of the MMO market will just play the latest big game and move on, regardless. These people aren’t content locusts, they’re just folks who don’t like to be married to one game. I think had ANet stayed the course, and stood by their stated principles they could’ve continued to build the game they sounded like they intended to build.

While I have no concrete numbers, it does seem that with or without ascended gear, a fair number of people trailed off between November and February. Anecdotal evidence also suggests that over the summer, as ANet hit their stride, plenty of people have also returned to the game. If that’s true, did they return because ANet have been throwing more gear with higher stats in the game, or because GW2 started to become the game it always had the potential to be, with frequent updates, and lots of stuff to do that wasn’t locked behind a gear wall?

The fact is, people were leaving the game for all sorts of reasons, and just pointing to lack of progression as the problem was a short-sighted, knee-jerk reaction. While there are lot’s of folks pleased by the addition of ascended gear, there are also lots of folks displeased by it. Once ANet had committed to trying to appease those who wanted gear progression, they really had no choice but to keep rolling it out, at least untill you could put a pink in every slot. But really, did it go far enough to keep the WoW crowd happy? My launch guild still went back to WoW, because there were no analogues to raiding. This all happened around the end of November. And these are the people factals were made for. In my opinion, ascended gear merely ticks off those who want no vertical progression, and doesn’t go far enough to appease those who want it. As Bill Cosby said, “I don’t know the secret to success, but the secret to failure is trying to please everybody”

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

If Anet has no intention of making a treadmill and you complain about there being one, then Anet can ignore the thread completely because they know they’re not planning on making a treadmill.

I feel like I’m on a treadmill now even before asc weapons are introduced, thats the only valid thing to me. If you or anet want to ignore that feedback because you/they think I’m talking out of my kitten fine but they’ll have lost a customer.

If Anet can’t understand what you’re staying, it can’t be fixed. If they lose customers because customers can’t communicate properly their concerns then I’d say it’s the customers problem first and foremost.

No one is saying not to have concerns. But voicing your concerns in a way that is easy to misintepret helps your cause how exactly? Because I’m not clear on that.

Essentially what you’re arguing for here is the right to express concerns in ambiguous ways and says screw you if someone can’t understand them.

Klawlyt.6507:

Vayne.8563:

snip

Because ultimately that’s the only way anything will be changed.

While we’re on the topic of semantics, there’s a reason people bring up three year old videos. It wasn’t a “statement of intent”. It wasn’t their “guiding principles”. It wasn’t their “business plan”. It was a manifesto. Who writes manifestos? People starting revolutions! People who want to change the way others think! ArenaNet boldly proclaimed that they were going to cast off the shackles of that which came before, and tread forth into new MMO territory.

Guild Wars 2, despite its fantastic sales, still had a rough opening couple of months. How long did it take to get the TP up and running? What was there for large guilds to do together? And yes, there were scads of people who just bought the game because the heard it was the next big MMO, and who hadn’t done their homework to find out what kind of game it was being marketed as. But these days, a large segment of the MMO market will just play the latest big game and move on, regardless. These people aren’t content locusts, they’re just folks who don’t like to be married to one game. I think had ANet stayed the course, and stood by their stated principles they could’ve continued to build the game they sounded like they intended to build.

While I have no concrete numbers, it does seem that with or without ascended gear, a fair number of people trailed off between November and February. Anecdotal evidence also suggests that over the summer, as ANet hit their stride, plenty of people have also returned to the game. If that’s true, did they return because ANet have been throwing more gear with higher stats in the game, or because GW2 started to become the game it always had the potential to be, with frequent updates, and lots of stuff to do that wasn’t locked behind a gear wall?

The fact is, people were leaving the game for all sorts of reasons, and just pointing to lack of progression as the problem was a short-sighted, knee-jerk reaction. While there are lot’s of folks pleased by the addition of ascended gear, there are also lots of folks displeased by it. Once ANet had committed to trying to appease those who wanted gear progression, they really had no choice but to keep rolling it out, at least untill you could put a pink in every slot. But really, did it go far enough to keep the WoW crowd happy? My launch guild still went back to WoW, because there were no analogues to raiding. This all happened around the end of November. And these are the people factals were made for. In my opinion, ascended gear merely ticks off those who want no vertical progression, and doesn’t go far enough to appease those who want it. As Bill Cosby said, “I don’t know the secret to success, but the secret to failure is trying to please everybody”

I’m pretty sure Anet’s intel on who was leaving and why is better than mine and very probably better than yours. Anet made the best decision they could with the data they had. Unless you claim to have better data than them, you’re another voice in a sea of opinions…just like me.

I think Anet had the metrics and the data and were able to interpret it. I think that a lot of people over ascended gear and many haven’t returned, but to me the game population is much higher now than it was in November BEFORE people started leaving.

Any MMO that has a higher population a year later than two months after launch is probably doing something right, regardless of how I personally feel about the direction the game is going.

Guild Wars 1 wasn’t a household name for a reason. It’s because it was a game that targeted people who had a higher IQ and more thought process. I assure you, you’re in a vast minority there.

As soon as I saw the scale and scope of this game, I knew concessions would have to be made. That’s because if any developer ever made a game for me…my perfect game…five guys would play it. I’d probably know most of them personally. lol

If it were up to me, there would be no stats at all. No numbers. None. No level, no gear, no upgrades, nothing. Basically, you get the idea that your character is sorta strong, cause you’d know that…or sort of smart…or what have you. And maybe those things could grow in the game without putting a specific number on it. This way, you can’t min/max at all..you just play what feels right for you. And you get completely immersed in the world because there’s no numbers to pull you out of the world. There’s be no levels. Progression would be through story, not gear, not skills. The story would be never ending.

That’s my ideal game. Somehow I don’t see it happening, so I make do with Guild Wars 2. lol

Vayne.8563:

So the real question is, if legendary armor gets released…is it going to be the same. Guaranteed best stats and the ability to change to different stat sets?

Because if it is, that’s gonna be amazing.

yes, legendary armor, trinkets will be able to change stats.

i want them to change skins too.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/smart-armor-system-v3-0-t10071643.html
i started asking for changing skins and stats back in 2006.

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

I feel like I’m on a treadmill now even before asc weapons are introduced, thats the only valid thing to me. If you or anet want to ignore that feedback because you/they think I’m talking out of my kitten fine but they’ll have lost a customer.

If Anet can’t understand what you’re staying, it can’t be fixed. If they lose customers because customers can’t communicate properly their concerns then I’d say it’s the customers problem first and foremost.

My concerns and those of others have been clearly communicated, the fact that you dismiss them out of hand is a problem for you and anet if they think similarly.

Vayne.8563:

I’m pretty sure Anet’s intel on who was leaving and why is better than mine and very probably better than yours. Anet made the best decision they could with the data they had. Unless you claim to have better data than them, you’re another voice in a sea of opinions…just like me.

I think Anet had the metrics and the data and were able to interpret it. I think that a lot of people over ascended gear and many haven’t returned, but to me the game population is much higher now than it was in November BEFORE people started leaving.

Any MMO that has a higher population a year later than two months after launch is probably doing something right, regardless of how I personally feel about the direction the game is going.

Guild Wars 1 wasn’t a household name for a reason. It’s because it was a game that targeted people who had a higher IQ and more thought process. I assure you, you’re in a vast minority there.

As soon as I saw the scale and scope of this game, I knew concessions would have to be made. That’s because if any developer ever made a game for me…my perfect game…five guys would play it. I’d probably know most of them personally. lol

If it were up to me, there would be no stats at all. No numbers. None. No level, no gear, no upgrades, nothing. Basically, you get the idea that your character is sorta strong, cause you’d know that…or sort of smart…or what have you. And maybe those things could grow in the game without putting a specific number on it. This way, you can’t min/max at all..you just play what feels right for you. And you get completely immersed in the world because there’s no numbers to pull you out of the world. There’s be no levels. Progression would be through story, not gear, not skills. The story would be never ending.

That’s my ideal game. Somehow I don’t see it happening, so I make do with Guild Wars 2. lol

I’ll admit, they had the intel, and we didn’t, but we still don’t have it. ArenaNet have done lots of things since November, (whether the majority of forum goers agree is another matter) and I still think it’s hard to just point to ascended gear as the biggest fix. During the first half of 2013, they added guild missions, fixed culling, got sPvP much closer to being esport worthy (from a technical standpoint, we all know balance is still a bit wonky), and took the living story from a party every month with some “meh” quests to a full-on new experience every other week.

While I’m sure that the data show that people are acquiring ascended gear, I’m not sure that means people are enjoying acquiring ascended gear. I’ll admit, despite my utter dislike of the whole tier, I’m still gearing up. I’m doing it because I primarily play WvW, and I want to stay competitive. I know there’s no such thing as my perfect game. (ok, there is, but we’re not talking about Super Smash Bros. Brawl Project M here.)

It still effects me negatively though. I had been playing my thief pretty much exclusively (outside of sPvP) since launch. I’ve finally decided to do my server a service, and am seriously leveling my guardian. We have just over a month until the WvW season starts. I have no doubt he’ll be leveled and in full exotics by then, but I also know that there literally no chance he’ll have all available ascended gear by then. I just have no way to make the laurels/cash needed between now and October. With the game that it sounded like ANet were presenting us at launch, this wouldn’t be an issue. This is my and many others’ complaint, and makes myself and others less likely to stick around in the face of upcoming competition.

I do get that you’re not defending it as good or bad, but simply as something that is. But it still irks me something fierce that ArenaNet have chosen to simply compete with that which has come before, instead of anticipating that which is coming. ESO has been touting max level progression as largely horizontal, and ironically, they plan to so this by having you continue collecting skills to use on your small hotbar. I remember a little CORPG that came out in 2005 that pulled that off pretty well. EQ Next is claiming that it isn’t even going to have levels.

So yeah, ANet made a business decision, because they’re a business. I just think they made the short-sighted one, and the one that alienates their core fanbase. I think they did it to make more money NOW, instead of continuing to build on the reputation they already had, and developing for the long run.

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

I feel like I’m on a treadmill now even before asc weapons are introduced, thats the only valid thing to me. If you or anet want to ignore that feedback because you/they think I’m talking out of my kitten fine but they’ll have lost a customer.

If Anet can’t understand what you’re staying, it can’t be fixed. If they lose customers because customers can’t communicate properly their concerns then I’d say it’s the customers problem first and foremost.

My concerns and those of others have been clearly communicated, the fact that you dismiss them out of hand is a problem for you and anet if they think similarly.

Oh, so it’s clear to you, so it’s clear to everyone. I see. The number one complaint of people who have complaints is that their complaints aren’t listened to. There’s not a thought at all that their complaints aren’t clear enough and often even seem to contradict each other.

People who complain and aren’t clear in their complains (and in many cases that is the case) deserve neither sympathy or solution.

Klawlyt.6507:

Vayne.8563:

snip

Any MMO that has a higher population a year later than two months after launch is probably doing something right, regardless of how I personally feel about the direction the game is going.

Guild Wars 1 wasn’t a household name for a reason. It’s because it was a game that targeted people who had a higher IQ and more thought process. I assure you, you’re in a vast minority there.

As soon as I saw the scale and scope of this game, I knew concessions would have to be made. That’s because if any developer ever made a game for me…my perfect game…five guys would play it. I’d probably know most of them personally. lol

If it were up to me, there would be no stats at all. No numbers. None. No level, no gear, no upgrades, nothing. Basically, you get the idea that your character is sorta strong, cause you’d know that…or sort of smart…or what have you. And maybe those things could grow in the game without putting a specific number on it. This way, you can’t min/max at all..you just play what feels right for you. And you get completely immersed in the world because there’s no numbers to pull you out of the world. There’s be no levels. Progression would be through story, not gear, not skills. The story would be never ending.

That’s my ideal game. Somehow I don’t see it happening, so I make do with Guild Wars 2. lol

I’ll admit, they had the intel, and we didn’t, but we still don’t have it. ArenaNet have done lots of things since November, (whether the majority of forum goers agree is another matter) and I still think it’s hard to just point to ascended gear as the biggest fix. During the first half of 2013, they added guild missions, fixed culling, got sPvP much closer to being esport worthy (from a technical standpoint, we all know balance is still a bit wonky), and took the living story from a party every month with some “meh” quests to a full-on new experience every other week.

While I’m sure that the data show that people are acquiring ascended gear, I’m not sure that means people are enjoying acquiring ascended gear. I’ll admit, despite my utter dislike of the whole tier, I’m still gearing up. I’m doing it because I primarily play WvW, and I want to stay competitive. I know there’s no such thing as my perfect game. (ok, there is, but we’re not talking about Super Smash Bros. Brawl Project M here.)

It still effects me negatively though. I had been playing my thief pretty much exclusively (outside of sPvP) since launch. I’ve finally decided to do my server a service, and am seriously leveling my guardian. We have just over a month until the WvW season starts. I have no doubt he’ll be leveled and in full exotics by then, but I also know that there literally no chance he’ll have all available ascended gear by then. I just have no way to make the laurels/cash needed between now and October. With the game that it sounded like ANet were presenting us at launch, this wouldn’t be an issue. This is my and many others’ complaint, and makes myself and others less likely to stick around in the face of upcoming competition.

I do get that you’re not defending it as good or bad, but simply as something that is. But it still irks me something fierce that ArenaNet have chosen to simply compete with that which has come before, instead of anticipating that which is coming. ESO has been touting max level progression as largely horizontal, and ironically, they plan to so this by having you continue collecting skills to use on your small hotbar. I remember a little CORPG that came out in 2005 that pulled that off pretty well. EQ Next is claiming that it isn’t even going to have levels.

So yeah, ANet made a business decision, because they’re a business. I just think they made the short-sighted one, and the one that alienates their core fanbase. I think they did it to make more money NOW, instead of continuing to build on the reputation they already had, and developing for the long run.

I’m not defending the choice to put ascended gear in the game, or the format Anet has chosen to put ascended gear into the game. And if people think I am, they’re simply wrong.

I’m saying that I simply don’t have enough knowledge or experience to actually know if this is good or bad. I’m not a developer. I’m not in the position to see five years and millions of dollars go to waste. I don’t have the same vested interest in the game as the people who brought it to life.

So I don’t judge very often..unless I really hate something.

I dislike this current event immensely. I think it’s bad for guilds. I think it’s bad for community. I’ve said so.

But I don’t think that’ll stop Anet from making more events like this.

Vayne.8563:

marnick.4305:

Vayne.8563:

JK Arrow.7102:

It’s an argument of semantics at this point. The fact is a gear tier that is higher than the previously max gear tier is being released and we have no confirmation that they will not release another tier. Whatever you want to call this situation, it doesn’t change the situation itself. It is acting and provides the same concerns and issues that a gear treadmill does.

@Vayne – I’ve been meaning to ask you this since our discussion in the other tread. Do you personally want additional tiers added? Do you think the game needs it?

I’d have been more than happy if they never had anything but cosmetic gear. That’s personally. That’s completely different than if I think the game needs it.

My son got his legendary bow. Then he stopped playing the game. He’s playing a different MMO now.

My answer to that is … good riddance. I don’t mean any offence but such people make the game worse for people like me who play for fun. People like your son simply can’t be pleased on the long term, without killing fun for people like me. That makes the “good riddance” a practical thing. People who don’t like RTS games shouldn’t be playing StarCraft either.

There are goal oriented people who need goals. Those goals don’t have to be gear, but gear is certainly an easy one to provide them with.

In fact, it’s so easy that it’s become the lazy cop out in the industry. I personally believe the route with achievement break points and account stats is the superior one.

What if such people were the majority of the people? What if there weren’t enough players left for Anet to expand the game.

I don’t believe they could have been the majority. Very simple real life statistics prove that beyond reasonable doubt. It’s not even a large minority. Unfortunately posting these statistics nets me an infraction so I’m not doing that.

I’ve played a whole lot of MMOs that don’t resonate with me at all. And I don’t know a whole lot of businesses that say, you know let everyone walk out, the business we have is enough. That’s not the way big business works…and MMOs have become big business.

Unless you have two groups that don’t mingle well, in that case you let the small group walk out. Might save your business.

It’s very easy when the money being invested into the game isn’t ours. We know what we want in a game. But unlike Guild Wars 1 which had a staff of 50, Guild Wars 2 has a staff of 300, bigger headquarters and far more server expense.

I don’t know the true numbers, but I strongly suspect this game needs a whole lot of players to keep the wheels turning.

And I’m of the same opinion. But the problem is, cater too much to hardcore (by adding tier 500) and you scare away the vast majority of casuals. By catering to the casuals, who are easily 80+% of the playerbase and 90+% of revenue, you scare away a small portion of the hardcore and even less money. What would you prefer as a business?

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

I feel like I’m on a treadmill now even before asc weapons are introduced, thats the only valid thing to me. If you or anet want to ignore that feedback because you/they think I’m talking out of my kitten fine but they’ll have lost a customer.

If Anet can’t understand what you’re staying, it can’t be fixed. If they lose customers because customers can’t communicate properly their concerns then I’d say it’s the customers problem first and foremost.

My concerns and those of others have been clearly communicated, the fact that you dismiss them out of hand is a problem for you and anet if they think similarly.

Oh, so it’s clear to you, so it’s clear to everyone. I see. The number one complaint of people who have complaints is that their complaints aren’t listened to. There’s not a thought at all that their complaints aren’t clear enough and often even seem to contradict each other.

People who complain and aren’t clear in their complains (and in many cases that is the case) deserve neither sympathy or solution.

Such bullgravy. I know why they’re upset, ANet knows why they’re upset. The only one who doesn’t seem to know is you — or are you just being disingenuous for the sake of obfuscation?

What I will grant is that the loose terminology used makes threads prone to tangents and sidetracks. However, that’s not because people are unaware why people are upset, angry or complaining. That’s people engaging in the international pastime of “proving” people wrong on the internet.

The ability to get off a treadmill does not mean that it is not a treadmill.

That said, I am not sure that GW2 has a treadmill. Some of Anet’s comments indicate that they are keeping the option open, but its possible that Ascended will be the final tier.

We will see.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

I feel like I’m on a treadmill now even before asc weapons are introduced, thats the only valid thing to me. If you or anet want to ignore that feedback because you/they think I’m talking out of my kitten fine but they’ll have lost a customer.

If Anet can’t understand what you’re staying, it can’t be fixed. If they lose customers because customers can’t communicate properly their concerns then I’d say it’s the customers problem first and foremost.

My concerns and those of others have been clearly communicated, the fact that you dismiss them out of hand is a problem for you and anet if they think similarly.

Oh, so it’s clear to you, so it’s clear to everyone. I see. The number one complaint of people who have complaints is that their complaints aren’t listened to. There’s not a thought at all that their complaints aren’t clear enough and often even seem to contradict each other.

People who complain and aren’t clear in their complains (and in many cases that is the case) deserve neither sympathy or solution.

Such bullgravy. I know why they’re upset, ANet knows why they’re upset. The only one who doesn’t seem to know is you — or are you just being disingenuous for the sake of obfuscation?

What I will grant is that the loose terminology used makes the thread prone to tangents and sidetracks. However, that’s not because people are unaware why people are upset, angry or complaining. That’s people engaging in the international pastime of “proving” people wrong on the internet.

Actually I do know why they’re upset…but I’m not so sure Anet knows. There are tons of posts on forums. I’m sure Anet guys skim through some of them, but different people are upset for different reasons.

Some people are upset about the grind but, get this. STILL want new tiers of gear. Some people are upset about how the gear is acquired but not the gear itself.

I’ve seen as much, maybe more crying about time gating than about another tier of gear being added. These are different complaints by different groups of people.

Language obscures stuff sometimes. If you’re not communicating effectively, you won’t be heard. I’m not sure how much more logical I can make that.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

I feel like I’m on a treadmill now even before asc weapons are introduced, thats the only valid thing to me. If you or anet want to ignore that feedback because you/they think I’m talking out of my kitten fine but they’ll have lost a customer.

If Anet can’t understand what you’re staying, it can’t be fixed. If they lose customers because customers can’t communicate properly their concerns then I’d say it’s the customers problem first and foremost.

My concerns and those of others have been clearly communicated, the fact that you dismiss them out of hand is a problem for you and anet if they think similarly.

Oh, so it’s clear to you, so it’s clear to everyone. I see. The number one complaint of people who have complaints is that their complaints aren’t listened to. There’s not a thought at all that their complaints aren’t clear enough and often even seem to contradict each other.

People who complain and aren’t clear in their complains (and in many cases that is the case) deserve neither sympathy or solution.

Such bullgravy. I know why they’re upset, ANet knows why they’re upset. The only one who doesn’t seem to know is you — or are you just being disingenuous for the sake of obfuscation?

What I will grant is that the loose terminology used makes the thread prone to tangents and sidetracks. However, that’s not because people are unaware why people are upset, angry or complaining. That’s people engaging in the international pastime of “proving” people wrong on the internet.

Actually I do know why they’re upset…but I’m not so sure Anet knows. There are tons of posts on forums. I’m sure Anet guys skim through some of them, but different people are upset for different reasons.

Some people are upset about the grind but, get this. STILL want new tiers of gear. Some people are upset about how the gear is acquired but not the gear itself.

I’ve seen as much, maybe more crying about time gating than about another tier of gear being added. These are different complaints by different groups of people.

Language obscures stuff sometimes. If you’re not communicating effectively, you won’t be heard. I’m not sure how much more logical I can make that.

Yeah, but people, including you, are not asking for clarification. They’re rubbing peoples’ noses in the “fact” that they used the wrong term. They’re not trying to improve communications, they’re trying to win on the internet.

As to whether ANet is really that discerning, or business savvy, I’m of two minds. Sometimes, I think they are in touch with the varied elements that make up the playerbase. Sometimes I think they make certain decisions because they want the game to appeal to the self-proclaimed good players, regardless of whether that group is a majority or minority. A lot of people used to enjoy responding to call-outs for help at Orr temples. Now, there aren’t any call outs in those zones at all, at least on some servers.

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

I feel like I’m on a treadmill now even before asc weapons are introduced, thats the only valid thing to me. If you or anet want to ignore that feedback because you/they think I’m talking out of my kitten fine but they’ll have lost a customer.

If Anet can’t understand what you’re staying, it can’t be fixed. If they lose customers because customers can’t communicate properly their concerns then I’d say it’s the customers problem first and foremost.

My concerns and those of others have been clearly communicated, the fact that you dismiss them out of hand is a problem for you and anet if they think similarly.

Yah, seems that Vayne here and ANet hve a unique reaction to feedback:

“Bury your head in the sand, put your fingers in your eara, sing NA AN ANA ANA and IGNORE/DENY EVERYTHING”

@Vayne, so you’re saying that the people in Anet are morons? Because everyone seems to understand the problems and see them more clearly than them… You can understand, the people in this thread can understand, everyone can understand, only Anet people can’t understand. Yeah, sounds logical… And there can’t be different problems with the game’s different systems, right.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

I feel like I’m on a treadmill now even before asc weapons are introduced, thats the only valid thing to me. If you or anet want to ignore that feedback because you/they think I’m talking out of my kitten fine but they’ll have lost a customer.

If Anet can’t understand what you’re staying, it can’t be fixed. If they lose customers because customers can’t communicate properly their concerns then I’d say it’s the customers problem first and foremost.

My concerns and those of others have been clearly communicated, the fact that you dismiss them out of hand is a problem for you and anet if they think similarly.

Oh, so it’s clear to you, so it’s clear to everyone. I see. The number one complaint of people who have complaints is that their complaints aren’t listened to. There’s not a thought at all that their complaints aren’t clear enough and often even seem to contradict each other.

People who complain and aren’t clear in their complains (and in many cases that is the case) deserve neither sympathy or solution.

Such bullgravy. I know why they’re upset, ANet knows why they’re upset. The only one who doesn’t seem to know is you — or are you just being disingenuous for the sake of obfuscation?

What I will grant is that the loose terminology used makes the thread prone to tangents and sidetracks. However, that’s not because people are unaware why people are upset, angry or complaining. That’s people engaging in the international pastime of “proving” people wrong on the internet.

Actually I do know why they’re upset…but I’m not so sure Anet knows. There are tons of posts on forums. I’m sure Anet guys skim through some of them, but different people are upset for different reasons.

Some people are upset about the grind but, get this. STILL want new tiers of gear. Some people are upset about how the gear is acquired but not the gear itself.

I’ve seen as much, maybe more crying about time gating than about another tier of gear being added. These are different complaints by different groups of people.

Language obscures stuff sometimes. If you’re not communicating effectively, you won’t be heard. I’m not sure how much more logical I can make that.

Yeah, but people, including you, are not asking for clarification. They’re rubbing peoples’ noses in the “fact” that they used the wrong term. They’re not trying to improve communications, they’re trying to win on the internet.

As to whether ANet is really that discerning, or business savvy, I’m of two minds. Sometimes, I think they are in touch with the varied elements that make up the playerbase. Sometimes I think they make certain decisions because they want the game to appeal to the self-proclaimed good players, regardless of whether that group is a majority or minority. A lot of people used to enjoy responding to call-outs for help at Orr temples. Now, there aren’t any call outs in those zones at all, at least on some servers.

Oh they are business savvy.

They took whatever money they could in the west. They use tehniques developed and used in F2P facebook games to hang on to what they have for as long as they can in a market thats no longer focus.

Now they are reworking whole game to fit eastern market as they see it as a much bigger potential but need fundamental game changes to stick there, which unfortunately dont float here in the west.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

Vayne.8563:

morrolan.9608:

I feel like I’m on a treadmill now even before asc weapons are introduced, thats the only valid thing to me. If you or anet want to ignore that feedback because you/they think I’m talking out of my kitten fine but they’ll have lost a customer.

If Anet can’t understand what you’re staying, it can’t be fixed. If they lose customers because customers can’t communicate properly their concerns then I’d say it’s the customers problem first and foremost.

My concerns and those of others have been clearly communicated, the fact that you dismiss them out of hand is a problem for you and anet if they think similarly.

Oh, so it’s clear to you, so it’s clear to everyone. I see. The number one complaint of people who have complaints is that their complaints aren’t listened to. There’s not a thought at all that their complaints aren’t clear enough and often even seem to contradict each other.

People who complain and aren’t clear in their complains (and in many cases that is the case) deserve neither sympathy or solution.

Such bullgravy. I know why they’re upset, ANet knows why they’re upset. The only one who doesn’t seem to know is you — or are you just being disingenuous for the sake of obfuscation?

What I will grant is that the loose terminology used makes the thread prone to tangents and sidetracks. However, that’s not because people are unaware why people are upset, angry or complaining. That’s people engaging in the international pastime of “proving” people wrong on the internet.

Actually I do know why they’re upset…but I’m not so sure Anet knows. There are tons of posts on forums. I’m sure Anet guys skim through some of them, but different people are upset for different reasons.

Some people are upset about the grind but, get this. STILL want new tiers of gear. Some people are upset about how the gear is acquired but not the gear itself.

I’ve seen as much, maybe more crying about time gating than about another tier of gear being added. These are different complaints by different groups of people.

Language obscures stuff sometimes. If you’re not communicating effectively, you won’t be heard. I’m not sure how much more logical I can make that.

Yeah, but people, including you, are not asking for clarification. They’re rubbing peoples’ noses in the “fact” that they used the wrong term. They’re not trying to improve communications, they’re trying to win on the internet.

As to whether ANet is really that discerning, or business savvy, I’m of two minds. Sometimes, I think they are in touch with the varied elements that make up the playerbase. Sometimes I think they make certain decisions because they want the game to appeal to the self-proclaimed good players, regardless of whether that group is a majority or minority. A lot of people used to enjoy responding to call-outs for help at Orr temples. Now, there aren’t any call outs in those zones at all, at least on some servers.

I think most of Anet is completely out of touch. I don’t think they have a clue about what people mean, because people really don’t communicate well.

I’m not rubbing anyone’s noses in anything. I’m saying, stop bringing up stuff that turns off minds. That’s it. If the grind it too much, complain about that. The grind. If you don’t like vertical progression at all, complain about that. But stay away from the turn off words that don’t really communicate and can be misunderstood.

The more people on the same page, the more likely Anet will get the message. We’re not on the same page here.

I’m not pro vertical progression, you know, but I don’t have anything against time gating.

Vayne.8563:

I think most of Anet is completely out of touch. I don’t think they have a clue about what people mean, because people really don’t communicate well.

I’m not so sure. I think enough people have put their thoughts here, and enough of those have been sufficiently eloquent, that they can’t help but get the point.

Lately I strongly suspect that they’re working some profitability equation that largely ignores the players that are going to quit or stop spending in the gemstore. I am thinking that if a small percentage of players are spending big bucks, and a moderate percentage are spending a little here and there, then that’s just fine with them, and fun is a very distant secondary or tertiary priority.

I truly don’t think they’re trying to make a really good, fun game any more. I think they’re trying to make one that’s just good enough to keep profits above a certain point. There’s no art to this any more.

Short answer is: as long as the credit cards are in use, all they’re going to do is try to make content that appeals to people who must have everything. Which, to me, has completely killed the spirit of Guild Wars. I’m not opposed to microtransactions, per se, and I certainly support a business trying to make a profit, but when that’s all the game is about, then I lose interest.

So as long as this is what the game is about, I’ll spend no more money on it. Which is a shame, because I’d cheerfully have put 15 bucks a month (or more!) into the gem store if the game was fun. But it isn’t. It’s not engaging. It’s just a grind. It’s just keeping up with the Joneses.

Trust me when I say: I’d be the most delighted person on these forums if ArenaNet came out and said, “we’ve made enough money that the pressure is off, now we’re going to focus on making GW2 the game it should have been.”

Chuo.4238:

Vayne.8563:

I think most of Anet is completely out of touch. I don’t think they have a clue about what people mean, because people really don’t communicate well.

I’m not so sure. I think enough people have put their thoughts here, and enough of those have been sufficiently eloquent, that they can’t help but get the point.

Lately I strongly suspect that they’re working some profitability equation that largely ignores the players that are going to quit or stop spending in the gemstore. I am thinking that if a small percentage of players are spending big bucks, and a moderate percentage are spending a little here and there, then that’s just fine with them, and fun is a very distant secondary or tertiary priority.

I truly don’t think they’re trying to make a really good, fun game any more. I think they’re trying to make one that’s just good enough to keep profits above a certain point. There’s no art to this any more.

Short answer is: as long as the credit cards are in use, all they’re going to do is try to make content that appeals to people who must have everything. Which, to me, has completely killed the spirit of Guild Wars. I’m not opposed to microtransactions, per se, and I certainly support a business trying to make a profit, but when that’s all the game is about, then I lose interest.

So as long as this is what the game is about, I’ll spend no more money on it. Which is a shame, because I’d cheerfully have put 15 bucks a month (or more!) into the gem store if the game was fun. But it isn’t. It’s not engaging. It’s just a grind. It’s just keeping up with the Joneses.

Trust me when I say: I’d be the most delighted person on these forums if ArenaNet came out and said, “we’ve made enough money that the pressure is off, now we’re going to focus on making GW2 the game it should have been.”

I don’t know. Some people found the zone wide invasions fun and I don’t think they needed to redo T’quatl the Sunless if you were right.

I think there’s a danger in categorizing everyone in a company as THE company. I think there are probably people who care very much about the game and others who care very much about the profits.

Having been in business in the real world, that seems to always be the case.

Vayne.8563:

I think there’s a danger in categorizing everyone in a company as THE company. I think there are probably people who care very much about the game and others who care very much about the profits.

No doubt there are. But at some point the internal debates stop and decisions are made. When those decisions are made public, they qualify as having been made by “the Company”.

I’m not saying any particular individuals are in one camp or another. I’m saying that when the Company does something, it’s as a collective, regardless of who might have disagreed with that decision. So when I say “ArenaNet”, I’m referring to their corporate policy, not anything specific about any particular individuals.

The funny thing is that leveling is done via a quest line and yes, levels. Gear progression after max level is the same thing actually, just with gear alone and no longer with levels.

Think about it, you don’t do level 50 zones when you are level 10. You wouldn’t survive. That’s totally wrong and upsetting isn’t it?

Wait, it’s not upsetting?

So while leveling you don’t get upset that you need higher levels and better gear for content, but once you’re max level you do get upset about needing gear for certain content?

Interesting.

Oh and there will be a level cap raise…maybe more. That’s not upsetting? Oh that’s right, because it’s leveling and that’s different.

@Vayne, life does get grindy. You speak about getting up every morning, but I know a lot of people who feel that way about their jobs. So yeh life is full of grind, but the question is do you enjoy the repetition and why? In game it’s fun vs progression. Why is that opposite. A lot of people actually like gear progression.

Now another thing is how people are stuck on stats vs cosmetics. It’s still a matter of progression either way. It isn’t as different as people think it is. It’s still something to work towards and once you have it, you generally start looking for the next project.

I am sure that there are some people who like just being there and doing things without a goal and call that fun, but I think I can safely state that most people have goals, they want to work towards something be it stats or cosmetic or both.

What makes gear treadmills annoying for some people is that it comes faster than they want or devaluates previous content they enjoyed. My guess is that if they managed that better it wouldn’t be such a problem.

Anet has chosen a much much slower pace of progression by releasing the ascended tier over a much longer period of time and time gating the acquisition, but I do wonder how long it will be before we see more content that requires ascended gear (and infusions) because at some point people will realise that having ascended gear doesn’t mean kitten all if it only makes existing content easier than it already is and nothing more. I would guess people will figure out it has no meaning.

Unless of course…well, we’ll see if the skins are amazing.

I’d like ascended haters to answer me this point I raised in another thread.

Situation:

Two players in Ascalonian Catacombs with identical gear. One player has a sigil of night on, the other has no sigil.

Why is it fine in this case, but the slight change in stats from exotic to ascended weapons is the end of the world?

Secondly, you can get ascended trinkets easily, so it’s literally just the weapon which takes a lot of effort and resources to get.

colesy.8490:

I’d like ascended haters to answer me this point I raised in another thread.

Situation:

Two players in Ascalonian Catacombs with identical gear. One player has a sigil of night on, the other has no sigil.

Why is it fine in this case, but the slight change in stats from exotic to ascended weapons is the end of the world?

Secondly, you can get ascended trinkets easily, so it’s literally just the weapon which takes a lot of effort and resources to get.

So why even have Ascended in the game? It’s a pointless grind that buries everything that was great about Guild Wars. That’s why.

There’s absolutely no reason for it, except to sell gems and satisfy locusts. Which, essentially, kills the entire spirit of the game. It’s principle.

Chuo.4238:

Vayne.8563:

I think there’s a danger in categorizing everyone in a company as THE company. I think there are probably people who care very much about the game and others who care very much about the profits.

No doubt there are. But at some point the internal debates stop and decisions are made. When those decisions are made public, they qualify as having been made by “the Company”.

I’m not saying any particular individuals are in one camp or another. I’m saying that when the Company does something, it’s as a collective, regardless of who might have disagreed with that decision. So when I say “ArenaNet”, I’m referring to their corporate policy, not anything specific about any particular individuals.

Right, but comments like “they don’t care” well no company cares, because no company is sentient. Companies by themselves can’t care.

Decisions made by those in charge are made with data we simply don’t have. We can be so sure of something because we feel it ourselves, but without actual metrics, it’s still just our feelings.

Sure that’s a valid way to judge things. By your feelings. But in my experience, feelings tend to overshadow thought.

It’s not reasonable to assume that the company made a decision to release ascended gear just to kitten off players who like the game. What they did was guestimate how many people were in the camp compared to how many people were in the other camp. True or not, I think they believed most people wanted something to work towards.

At that point, comes the compromise. How slowly can they release it, so that it makes the minimal difference to existing players. Those who are fundamentalist in their views on both sides probably walked. But I think most players are in the middle.

Gehenna.3625:

The funny thing is that leveling is done via a quest line and yes, levels. Gear progression after max level is the same thing actually, just with gear alone and no longer with levels.

Think about it, you don’t do level 50 zones when you are level 10. You wouldn’t survive. That’s totally wrong and upsetting isn’t it?

Wait, it’s not upsetting?

So while leveling you don’t get upset that you need higher levels and better gear for content, but once you’re max level you do get upset about needing gear for certain content?

Interesting.

That’s just trolly and doesn’t show much insight into the situation. First off, I’m sure the number of people ticked off about ascended gear is roughly equal to the number of people who would be/will be ticked off at the inevitable announcement of a level cap increase.

We all knew there would be progression from 1-80, that was never in doubt. While I would argue it’s not absolutely necessary for the initial progression, (see EQNext) completely removing levels would indeed be a radical step for a game still claiming to be an MMORPG, and it’s not a step ANet were even trying to make. They did many things to devalue the leveling process, such as leveling scaling. Ok, just level scaling, but it is in many parts of the game, and in many cases implemented well.

The difference between progressing to level cap and progressing past the level cap, (via gear, just as you pointed out) is now the goalposts are being moved. Now granted, many MMO’s move their goalposts quite regularly. That’s not a bad thing, that’s what many games are built on, and there’s nothing wrong with that. The thing that rustles so many jimmies around here is that GW2 was marketed as though we were going to be free from that. While it’s true that everyone needs goals, not everyone needs the persistent, mandatory goal of getting better gear shoved down their throat. My goals, for example, are generally: increase my point per tick, take that tower, play sPvP to make ME a better player (and not to make my character a better character). This is the game that it seemed I was getting. If YOU need stat progression, that’s fine. Go play one of those games where that’s the emphasis.

ANet capitulating to the uninformed is only part of the problem. The other part is the uninformed.

And now that the game has the stickiness that they were missing at launch (even I felt it), maybe it’ll turn out there won’t be more tiers of gear, because they won’t be necessary.

But to assume they’ll be more than this, just because this exists is just an unwarranted assumption.

colesy.8490:

I’d like ascended haters to answer me this point I raised in another thread.

I will answer it from my point of view but please realise people have different reasons for not liking ascended gear. My problem is not the gear itself but how it’s being handled.

colesy.8490:

Situation:

Two players in Ascalonian Catacombs with identical gear. One player has a sigil of night on, the other has no sigil.

Why is it fine in this case, but the slight change in stats from exotic to ascended weapons is the end of the world?

Your situation is in a dungeon. That doesn’t help. In PvE content the differences between classes and gear are only problematic if it causes people to exclude players because of it. This may still happen. I fully expect that at some point ascended gear will be required to join groups even in the usual dungeons just to save time.

The trinkets may not make that big of a difference but the weapons migt make a bigger difference as they are part of a multiplier to calculate damage done. Multiplication can make a much bigger difference than simple addition.

Also by the time the full set of ascended gear is out, I do not know how much of a difference it makes then and it will be something that matters for new players. I also think that one of the bigger concerns is WvW. This is where players are pitted against each other. I am convinced that even if exaggerated, people will start blaming losing on not having ascended gear and may deter players to participate before they have ascended gear.

colesy.8490:

Secondly, you can get ascended trinkets easily, so it’s literally just the weapon which takes a lot of effort and resources to get.

This is part of the problem for me? This is one reason why I don’t like ascended gear. For me it takes too long to get it (time gated and weapons and armour aren’t in game yet). You can find multiple complaints about this very issue. To make it so easy but time gated and not give alternatives is just not helpful. It seems the back piece is in the same vain. It just seems to me that it’s better to stay away from the whole extra tier thing or to actually make it a sensible progression that people can work towards and have options to do so. My understanding is that for the back piece you pretty much have to do fractals. So you can get the trinkets just by showing up but for the back piece you need to do something specific? It’s just the lack of sense and logic in their approach that gets me, not the actual gear itself.

U know u ppl make me sick crying over a gear treadmill. The game is getting boring atm the only thing the game has going for itself is the content every two weeks. enjoy making the ascended gear like u was getting exotics. Play the game stop complaining about new stuff. Think when u was a kid and u got something new. Its like some of u are acting like how ppl was saying gw2 is goin to fail. Reading all these post on how anet is adding a grind to the game or gear treadmill and bla bla bla bla omg stop it getting to exotics was a small grind and treadmill and getting the look u want was a grind and u didnt complain so why complain about ascended gear. Cuz anet said no grind? cuz the anet is goin back on the manifesto? Gosh ppl things change over weeks and months. Ideas change and dont stop changing. This is a mmo an ever changing world we play in.

Klawlyt.6507:

Gehenna.3625:

The funny thing is that leveling is done via a quest line and yes, levels. Gear progression after max level is the same thing actually, just with gear alone and no longer with levels.

Think about it, you don’t do level 50 zones when you are level 10. You wouldn’t survive. That’s totally wrong and upsetting isn’t it?

Wait, it’s not upsetting?

So while leveling you don’t get upset that you need higher levels and better gear for content, but once you’re max level you do get upset about needing gear for certain content?

Interesting.

That’s just trolly and doesn’t show much insight into the situation. First off, I’m sure the number of people ticked off about ascended gear is roughly equal to the number of people who would be/will be ticked off at the inevitable announcement of a level cap increase.

We all knew there would be progression from 1-80, that was never in doubt. While I would argue it’s not absolutely necessary for the initial progression, (see EQNext) completely removing levels would indeed be a radical step for a game still claiming to be an MMORPG, and it’s not a step ANet were even trying to make. They did many things to devalue the leveling process, such as leveling scaling. Ok, just level scaling, but it is in many parts of the game, and in many cases implemented well.

The difference between progressing to level cap and progressing past the level cap, (via gear, just as you pointed out) is now the goalposts are being moved. Now granted, many MMO’s move their goalposts quite regularly. That’s not a bad thing, that’s what many games are built on, and there’s nothing wrong with that. The thing that rustles so many jimmies around here is that GW2 was marketed as though we were going to be free from that. While it’s true that everyone needs goals, not everyone needs the persistent, mandatory goal of getting better gear shoved down their throat. My goals, for example, are generally: increase my point per tick, take that tower, play sPvP to make ME a better player (and not to make my character a better character). This is the game that it seemed I was getting. If YOU need stat progression, that’s fine. Go play one of those games where that’s the emphasis.

ANet capitulating to the uninformed is only part of the problem. The other part is the uninformed.

I was not trolling at all. Just using satire to make a point. It’s not the same.

I do play another game where there is stat progression. My only gripe here is that Anet didn’t want to decide and made some horrible hybrid. My wish for GW2 was to have no tiers at all like GW1. Since they decided to go a half baked way I am not happy with it.

If anything I wish they never had introduced it to begin with. I am NOT asking for tiers in this game, I am just saying that the people who are so categorically opposed to it, don’t realise that leveling is very similar to gear progression. Leveling has gear progression by level and the gear and levels are needed to do higher level content. Please explain to me how this is so incredibly different?

I find it a kittenildish to call me uninformed, especially if you don’t even explain why.

So don’t just jump on my view as a rabid dog again simply because you have a different point of view, but try to actually think about this first. How is it so different? That’s what I want to know and if you make a good point, with argumentation, I will gladly accept it and learn from it, but if not, then I will understand you don’t actually have a point.

Vayne.8563:

And now that the game has the stickiness that they were missing at launch (even I felt it), maybe it’ll turn out there won’t be more tiers of gear, because they won’t be necessary.

But to assume they’ll be more than this, just because this exists is just an unwarranted assumption.

My guess is that the Chinese will get to decide that. If the game does well there, do you think they will be happy without any more tiers?

Vayne.8563:

And now that the game has the stickiness that they were missing at launch (even I felt it), maybe it’ll turn out there won’t be more tiers of gear, because they won’t be necessary.

But to assume they’ll be more than this, just because this exists is just an unwarranted assumption.

It’s this doubt that’s killing the whole thing. If ArenaNet announced that Ascended would be the final tier – no more to come, ever, then I’d grumble but I’d log on and start playing again, get my gear, and get on with it.

But there’s absolutely no way that I’m even going to bother trying with that doubt still out there. I’m not going to spend all that time grinding out a set of gear for it to eventually be obsoleted by some new tier. No thanks.

So because of this very uncertainty, I don’t play any more. I understand that there are times when it’s best to keep your options open, but in this case, keeping this tier gear option open is keeping me from getting interested in all the other content that they’re working on.

What is Guild Wars 2? What does it really stand for within this genre of gaming? So far, it seems to try and sit on every possible fence.

So why even have Ascended in the game? It’s a pointless grind that buries everything that was great about Guild Wars. That’s why.

There’s absolutely no reason for it, except to sell gems and satisfy locusts. Which, essentially, kills the entire spirit of the game. It’s principle.

You have ascended gear for Fractals. And if you can dodge, you can run none of it all the way up to Fractal 80 as long as you can dodge, the only thing is that you’ll get instantly gibbed by Jade Maw. Every other boss has dodgeable agony attacks.

—

This is part of the problem for me? This is one reason why I don’t like ascended gear. For me it takes too long to get it (time gated and weapons and armour aren’t in game yet). You can find multiple complaints about this very issue. To make it so easy but time gated and not give alternatives is just not helpful.

Then be more patient. Two ascended rings will take you 20 level 10+ fractals to get (provided you don’t get the one you wanted in the maw daily chest). Two ascended accessories takes you four weeks of guild missions. An ascended amulet takes ou one monthly + 10 days of dailies + WvW badges to get. (exo) Fractal capacitor will take a little while if you’re not frequently running Fractals. Ascending it is pretty easy however, the only expensive part is infusing it.

So you can get the trinkets just by showing up but for the back piece you need to do something specific?

Uh… yes? I heard you also needed to run a dungeon quite frequently if you wanted a specific dungeon skin, it’s the end of the world I guess. How is having to work for something good a bad thing, or lacking sense? Do you prefer “join zerg, smash 1, collect awesome loot”?

If anyone should be complaining, it’s me since I min-max my gear, and ascended is time-gated away from me, but I’m fine with it. The rest of you aren’t even maximising your builds, or even running good builds in the first place so you still have room to increase your efficiency easily whereas I don’t.

colesy.8490:

The rest of you aren’t even maximising your builds, or even running good builds in the first place so you still have room to increase your efficiency easily whereas I don’t.

Because doing that isn’t fun. Why in the kitten would I want to get caught up in that garbage? If I need to maximise my build in order to do some content, then screw it.

Come on, there’s nothing to be that competitive about in Guild Wars 2 (and thank goodness for that – yes, you heard me, I actually like some things about GW2). If you were a real, uber-elitist gamer you’d be playing something else where that kind of crap really does matter.

Gehenna.3625:

I was not trolling at all. Just using satire to make a point. It’s not the same.

I do play another game where there is stat progression. My only gripe here is that Anet didn’t want to decide and made some horrible hybrid. My wish for GW2 was to have no tiers at all like GW1. Since they decided to go a half baked way I am not happy with it.

If anything I wish they never had introduced it to begin with. I am NOT asking for tiers in this game, I am just saying that the people who are so categorically opposed to it, don’t realise that leveling is very similar to gear progression. Leveling has gear progression by level and the gear and levels are needed to do higher level content. Please explain to me how this is so incredibly different?

I find it a kittenildish to call me uninformed, especially if you don’t even explain why.

So don’t just jump on my view as a rabid dog again simply because you have a different point of view, but try to actually think about this first. How is it so different? That’s what I want to know and if you make a good point, with argumentation, I will gladly accept it and learn from it, but if not, then I will understand you don’t actually have a point.

First off, I didn’t realize it was satire. In that case, I’d say we’re actually on the same side of the argument, if for slightly different reasons.

Second, i did explain why leveling, and post level-cap progression are two different things. At launch, a good chunk of the people who had been following the game thought that the goalposts were going to sit at 80, with reasonably easy to obtain exotics. At least for a good long time. In WoW, or ToR or any other “classical” MMO, there’s an expectation that the goalposts are going to be moved periodically. Some games get criticized for not doing it quickly enough. Folks like you and I, were not looking for those games.

And third, I s’pose you’re not among the uninformed, again, because I mistook your post for your genuine opinion. That doesn’t change the fact that the people who bought the game, got to 80, and started with the “OMG there’s nuthin to do here!” didn’t know what kind of game they were getting. But all those people were here, and were willing to spend money. So ANet gave them a reason to stick around and spend. And now the game I thought I was getting away from turned out to be exactly where I went.

And as I stated earlier, this whole state of compromise is ultimately a bad choice, I believe. I don’t think ascended gear goes far enough to make people who really do like WoW model happy, and it certainly ticks off the people who were trying to escape it. Ultimately, the only people who are content are the folks who don’t really have an opinion either way.

Because doing that isn’t fun. Why in the kitten would I want to get caught up in that garbage? If I need to maximise my build in order to do some content, then screw it.

What I’m trying to say is that people complaining about ascended gear being better probably aren’t utilising their full potential anyway, so they can still make their character stronger so there’s no problem.

The complaint about minmaxing just sounds to me like you can’t be bothered to think, and even then, minmaxing is very simple and cheap in this game.

Come on, there’s nothing to be that competitive about in Guild Wars 2 (and thank goodness for that – yes, you heard me, I actually like some things about GW2). If you were a real, uber-elitist gamer you’d be playing something else where that kind of crap really does matter.

Except it does matter here because you have people whining about the stat difference between exotic and ascended and yet they haven’t even finished maxing their exotic stats.

You folks need to google what a treadmill is. Until they set precedence for repeatedly replacing the current-best tier there is no treadmill. Keyword here being repeatedly.

I can see ascended being outdone in 2016 after ascended armor finished the Ascended tier in 2014/15. And at that point someone could call it a (really slow) treadmill.

But for now, this one tread does not constitue a mill, and one tread (exotic -> ascended) is all we’ve had and will have for the forseeable future.

P.S. I’d quit if this turns treadmill – it just isnt one for now unless you want to go to extreme logic leaps to justify your conviction, or just like to complain.

Mastruq.2463:

You folks need to google what a treadmill is. Until they set precedence for repeatedly replacing the current-best tier there is no treadmill. Keyword here being repeatedly.

I can see ascended being outdone in 2016 after ascended armor finished the Ascended tier in 2014/15. And at that point someone could call it a (really slow) treadmill.

But for now, this one tread does not constitue a mill, and one tread (exotic -> ascended) is all we’ve had and will have for the forseeable future.

P.S. I’d quit if this turns treadmill – it just isnt one for now unless you want to go to extreme logic leaps to justify your conviction, or just like to complain.

Agreed… Did I miss the post by a Dev that said Legendary got replaced? lol

Mastruq.2463:

You folks need to google what a treadmill is. Until they set precedence for repeatedly replacing the current-best tier there is no treadmill. Keyword here being repeatedly.

I can see ascended being outdone in 2016 after ascended armor finished the Ascended tier in 2014/15. And at that point someone could call it a (really slow) treadmill.

But for now, this one tread does not constitue a mill, and one tread (exotic -> ascended) is all we’ve had and will have for the forseeable future.

P.S. I’d quit if this turns treadmill – it just isnt one for now unless you want to go to extreme logic leaps to justify your conviction, or just like to complain.

Maybe it’s a treadmill, maybe it isn’t. To be honest, it doesn’t matter into what pigeon hole you want to put Ascended.

It most definitely is a timegated grind for gear that has higher stats. And I loved Guild Wars because Guild Wars didn’t have that.

And that’s what’s kitten ing people off. They bought this game expecting to not have to grind tier gear, and yet here it is.

Nobody that I’ve seen, prior to the announcement of Ascended gear last November, got on these forums, Reddit, or anywhere else and asked, “ArenaNet, can we please have tiers of gear to grind for in Guild Wars 2?”

Rather, people were glad to finally have a game without that garbage.

…and suddenly, without warning, tier gear grind got thrown into a game that didn’t have it when we bought it.

Mastruq.2463:

You folks need to google what a treadmill is. Until they set precedence for repeatedly replacing the current-best tier there is no treadmill. Keyword here being repeatedly.

I can see ascended being outdone in 2016 after ascended armor finished the Ascended tier in 2014/15. And at that point someone could call it a (really slow) treadmill.

But for now, this one tread does not constitue a mill, and one tread (exotic -> ascended) is all we’ve had and will have for the forseeable future.

P.S. I’d quit if this turns treadmill – it just isnt one for now unless you want to go to extreme logic leaps to justify your conviction, or just like to complain.

So when they add next tier of infusions youll come here and apologize?

Klawlyt.6507:

Gehenna.3625:

I was not trolling at all. Just using satire to make a point. It’s not the same.

I do play another game where there is stat progression. My only gripe here is that Anet didn’t want to decide and made some horrible hybrid. My wish for GW2 was to have no tiers at all like GW1. Since they decided to go a half baked way I am not happy with it.

If anything I wish they never had introduced it to begin with. I am NOT asking for tiers in this game, I am just saying that the people who are so categorically opposed to it, don’t realise that leveling is very similar to gear progression. Leveling has gear progression by level and the gear and levels are needed to do higher level content. Please explain to me how this is so incredibly different?

I find it a kittenildish to call me uninformed, especially if you don’t even explain why.

So don’t just jump on my view as a rabid dog again simply because you have a different point of view, but try to actually think about this first. How is it so different? That’s what I want to know and if you make a good point, with argumentation, I will gladly accept it and learn from it, but if not, then I will understand you don’t actually have a point.

First off, I didn’t realize it was satire. In that case, I’d say we’re actually on the same side of the argument, if for slightly different reasons.

Second, i did explain why leveling, and post level-cap progression are two different things. At launch, a good chunk of the people who had been following the game thought that the goalposts were going to sit at 80, with reasonably easy to obtain exotics. At least for a good long time. In WoW, or ToR or any other “classical” MMO, there’s an expectation that the goalposts are going to be moved periodically. Some games get criticized for not doing it quickly enough. Folks like you and I, were not looking for those games.

And third, I s’pose you’re not among the uninformed, again, because I mistook your post for your genuine opinion. That doesn’t change the fact that the people who bought the game, got to 80, and started with the “OMG there’s nuthin to do here!” didn’t know what kind of game they were getting. But all those people were here, and were willing to spend money. So ANet gave them a reason to stick around and spend. And now the game I thought I was getting away from turned out to be exactly where I went.

And as I stated earlier, this whole state of compromise is ultimately a bad choice, I believe. I don’t think ascended gear goes far enough to make people who really do like WoW model happy, and it certainly ticks off the people who were trying to escape it. Ultimately, the only people who are content are the folks who don’t really have an opinion either way.

Yep, looks like we agree more than we realised so we can instantly bury that hatchet.

It’s a bad compromise indeed and I just wish they’d never gone this way. How do you feel about their intended level cap raise then, because they also said that was coming?

Chuo.4238:

Snip

This guy… this guy knows.

Gehenna.3625:

Yep, looks like we agree more than we realised so we can instantly bury that hatchet.

It’s a bad compromise indeed and I just wish they’d never gone this way. How do you feel about their intended level cap raise then, because they also said that was coming?

I’m still not thrilled about it, but IIRC, we were at least warned about that prelaunch. I had already accepted it at inevitable as part of the move to be more like a normal MMO, but not likely to happen more than once a year. A level cap raise by itself wouldn’t have been terrible, but coupled with the pace of ascendeds coming out, I fear it will just be one more step in the regularly scheduled power creep that ANet have resigned to.

Klawlyt.6507:

Gehenna.3625:

Yep, looks like we agree more than we realised so we can instantly bury that hatchet.

It’s a bad compromise indeed and I just wish they’d never gone this way. How do you feel about their intended level cap raise then, because they also said that was coming?

I’m still not thrilled about it, but IIRC, we were at least warned about that prelaunch. I had already accepted it at inevitable as part of the move to be more like a normal MMO, but not likely to happen more than once a year. A level cap raise by itself wouldn’t have been terrible, but coupled with the pace of ascendeds coming out, I fear it will just be one more step in the regularly scheduled power creep that ANet have resigned to.

Well my guess is that first come the ascended weapons as we know, then the ascended armour and then the level cap raise and it starts over again. Might take another year before the level cap raise is on the table but it’s what I expect.

No matter what ANet come up with, there will be those that complain.

Up until recently, there was complaints about the content being too easy, and that there was no vertical progression, and nothing to do.

So, now ANet has given us the Living Story (doesn’t matter if you like it or not, it’s there if you want to do it,) they’re going to upgrade Tequatl, and now they’re introducing ascended gear blah blah blah.

The key is that the difference between Exotic gear, Ascended gear, and Legendary gear is that their stats are not so far apart that the general joe can’t compete if they don’t get the latest and greatest.

I hope it stays that way, no matter how many tiers of armor they add.

Ashabhi.1365:

No matter what ANet come up with, there will be those that complain.

Up until recently, there was complaints about the content being too easy, and that there was no vertical progression, and nothing to do.

So, now ANet has given us the Living Story (doesn’t matter if you like it or not, it’s there if you want to do it,) they’re going to upgrade Tequatl, and now they’re introducing ascended gear blah blah blah.

The key is that the difference between Exotic gear, Ascended gear, and Legendary gear is that their stats are not so far apart that the general joe can’t compete if they don’t get the latest and greatest.

I hope it stays that way, no matter how many tiers of armor they add.

Adding more content doesn’t make the game less easy. What a ridiculous argument. The game is still too easy.

And as far as the stats are concerned it doesn’t matter how big the difference is, although I suspect it’s bigger than you think when we have a full set of ascended gear. Perception is reality as they saying goes.

I fully expect in the future that people will only want to do things like dungeons with people in ascended gear because it’s easier and faster.

I also expect that the stats actually make enough of a difference in WvW for people to complain about it and feel like they can’t compete in WvW without it.

So even if you were right and the stat difference were negligible (which again I don’t actually agree with), even then will people still believe it makes a big difference. I don’t think that you can just change that perception and it will upset more people than Anet should want to upset.

Chuo.4238:

Mastruq.2463:

You folks need to google what a treadmill is. Until they set precedence for repeatedly replacing the current-best tier there is no treadmill. Keyword here being repeatedly.

I can see ascended being outdone in 2016 after ascended armor finished the Ascended tier in 2014/15. And at that point someone could call it a (really slow) treadmill.

But for now, this one tread does not constitue a mill, and one tread (exotic -> ascended) is all we’ve had and will have for the forseeable future.

P.S. I’d quit if this turns treadmill – it just isnt one for now unless you want to go to extreme logic leaps to justify your conviction, or just like to complain.

Maybe it’s a treadmill, maybe it isn’t. To be honest, it doesn’t matter into what pigeon hole you want to put Ascended.

It most definitely is a timegated grind for gear that has higher stats. And I loved Guild Wars because Guild Wars didn’t have that.

And that’s what’s kitten ing people off. They bought this game expecting to not have to grind tier gear, and yet here it is.

Nobody that I’ve seen, prior to the announcement of Ascended gear last November, got on these forums, Reddit, or anywhere else and asked, “ArenaNet, can we please have tiers of gear to grind for in Guild Wars 2?”

Rather, people were glad to finally have a game without that garbage.

…and suddenly, without warning, tier gear grind got thrown into a game that didn’t have it when we bought it.

Sweet! We’ve gotten past the whole you don’t understand the definition of gear treadmill! Now lets move on to “time gated content”

Time gated content- Content that has a predefined time period in order to obtain.

Ascended weapons ARE NOT time gated… they are a permanent addition…

Chuo.4238:

Mastruq.2463:

You folks need to google what a treadmill is. Until they set precedence for repeatedly replacing the current-best tier there is no treadmill. Keyword here being repeatedly.

I can see ascended being outdone in 2016 after ascended armor finished the Ascended tier in 2014/15. And at that point someone could call it a (really slow) treadmill.

But for now, this one tread does not constitue a mill, and one tread (exotic -> ascended) is all we’ve had and will have for the forseeable future.

P.S. I’d quit if this turns treadmill – it just isnt one for now unless you want to go to extreme logic leaps to justify your conviction, or just like to complain.

Maybe it’s a treadmill, maybe it isn’t. To be honest, it doesn’t matter into what pigeon hole you want to put Ascended.

It most definitely is a timegated grind for gear that has higher stats. And I loved Guild Wars because Guild Wars didn’t have that.

And that’s what’s kitten ing people off. They bought this game expecting to not have to grind tier gear, and yet here it is.

Nobody that I’ve seen, prior to the announcement of Ascended gear last November, got on these forums, Reddit, or anywhere else and asked, “ArenaNet, can we please have tiers of gear to grind for in Guild Wars 2?”

Rather, people were glad to finally have a game without that garbage.

…and suddenly, without warning, tier gear grind got thrown into a game that didn’t have it when we bought it.

No people got on here and complained that there was nothing to do post 80 lol.

Namu.5712:

No people got on here and complained that there was nothing to do post 80 lol.

My complaint in that respect is that there’s nothing to do post 80 that I haven’t already done 20 times or more while leveling.

Namu.5712:

Chuo.4238:

Mastruq.2463:

You folks need to google what a treadmill is. Until they set precedence for repeatedly replacing the current-best tier there is no treadmill. Keyword here being repeatedly.

I can see ascended being outdone in 2016 after ascended armor finished the Ascended tier in 2014/15. And at that point someone could call it a (really slow) treadmill.

But for now, this one tread does not constitue a mill, and one tread (exotic -> ascended) is all we’ve had and will have for the forseeable future.

P.S. I’d quit if this turns treadmill – it just isnt one for now unless you want to go to extreme logic leaps to justify your conviction, or just like to complain.

Maybe it’s a treadmill, maybe it isn’t. To be honest, it doesn’t matter into what pigeon hole you want to put Ascended.

It most definitely is a timegated grind for gear that has higher stats. And I loved Guild Wars because Guild Wars didn’t have that.

And that’s what’s kitten ing people off. They bought this game expecting to not have to grind tier gear, and yet here it is.

Nobody that I’ve seen, prior to the announcement of Ascended gear last November, got on these forums, Reddit, or anywhere else and asked, “ArenaNet, can we please have tiers of gear to grind for in Guild Wars 2?”

Rather, people were glad to finally have a game without that garbage.

…and suddenly, without warning, tier gear grind got thrown into a game that didn’t have it when we bought it.

No people got on here and complained that there was nothing to do post 80 lol.

Will that same people continue complaining tomorrow when today they get their ascended weapons?

Will that same people continue complaining when they get their full ascended set before the end of the year?

Will those who got their legendaries now complain that their legendary was updated in stats so they AGAIN dont have anything to do?